PDA

View Full Version : SENTINEL Sentinel seems silly and too easy



NanakoAC
1st Nov 2014, 17:24
Hi all. I unlocked the sentinel early yesterday, spent the the day then, and up to today, messing around with it. It seems like it has a lot of design issues.


Firstly and most importantly, walls. Right now literally nothing happens if the sentinel hits a wall while flying, he just sort of slides against it until you turn around. It looks reallly stupid when you swoop down from above at an insane speed, grab a human, and then slam headfirst into the wall behind him. And you just slide against it while you turn around.

I should be punished for that lack of skill. If i swoop in at high speed and smack my head into a wall, i should drop the human prematurely, and take some damage. Maybe even be knocked out of the air. It both looks and feels absurd, and it makes playing sentinel a lot less skilful than i'd hoped.

On a similar note, the same sort of thing happens when you dive bomb and hit a wall. You spin against it for ages while sliding down it. you don't even have the control to turn away from it. Imo if i divebomb into a wall, it should just have the impact there, in a sphere around where i hit. and maybe damage me too, for my clumsiness.


As for normal flight, i think it would be too harsh to punish us much for hitting walls while not swooping, maybe only if you hit it straight on. Otherwise, the sliding-along-the wall thing is fine to have, but it needs some accompanying animation to make it not look silly. Like the sentinel could turn on his side, and scrape his claws along the wall as he flies, leaving a trail across it in decals until you pull away.


Just to clarify, for all of the above: The effect of hitting a wall should be dependant on the angle you strike it at, and the speed you're going


Anyways, secondly, and very related: Tight spaces
The idea of the sentinel being able to swoop in a window, snatch someone, and fly out of a doorway with them is really fun, and insanely cool to pull off. The problem is, it's not very hard to do at the moment. Since if you miss that doorway, you can just slide along the frame until you get through. And even if you mess it up badly and can't escape with the human, you can just fly off, despite being in an enclosed space where your wings can barely stretch.

In addition, i'd have to say that right now, sentinel feels like the most powerful class for indoor combat, which is odd given that he's supposed to be an open-air flyer. The dive bomb is a powerful aoe stun/nuke which naturally works better when people are bunched up, and the wing flap thing is a similar aoe disable/nuke which works ESPECIALLY well indoors because people can't be blasted very far away from you, allowing you to more easily follow up with melee attacks. It all just seems wrong.

I think the most logical thing for these situations,(in addition to the stuff about wall impacts) The sentinel should be unable to fly normally in tight indoor spaces, but swooping should still be allowed. If you aren't out of the building by the time the swoop motion finishes, you should be forced to land and walk. That would mostly deprive him of the ability to use dive bomb indoors, unless you're skilful enough to do it from outside by bombing through a roof opening (which should be allowed and encouraged)



Anyways, those are my main suggestions. Thoughts?

RazielWarmonic
1st Nov 2014, 17:27
Sentinel is a great pub stomper, but he fails in competitive play.
I disagree with a lot of your points because of this.

NanakoAC
1st Nov 2014, 17:50
Sentinel is a great pub stomper, but he fails in competitive play.
I disagree with a lot of your points because of this.

Hmm.
i'd like to mention, then, that these changes are NOT aimed at balance. The idea is to make the game more internally consistent, and "realistic". To make more sense.

Obviously, the two major ones would make the sentinel weaker, i assume that can be compensated with by things like increased speed/damage, shorter animation times, a wider grab radius on the swoop, better turning speeds, etc. It's not too hard to adjust numbers after making these changes, so that his overall strength stays about the same, or even gets buffed if it seems necessary.

It's just that right now, the sentinel is nonsensical to play.

Blastin_Foolz
1st Nov 2014, 18:04
Sentinel is a great pub stomper, but he fails in competitive play.
I disagree with a lot of your points because of this.

This.

I love Sentinel a lot, but the other three classes are just a lot more reliable and solid picks. Deceiver especially right now is the yolo queue hero, followed by the Reaver. Against people who know how to aim, Sentinel just gets picked off too easy and is hard countered unbelievably hard by bolas and the Warbow.

BR0sephStalin
1st Nov 2014, 18:04
Hmm.
i'd like to mention, then, that these changes are NOT aimed at balance. The idea is to make the game more internally consistent, and "realistic". To make more sense.

Obviously, the two major ones would make the sentinel weaker, i assume that can be compensated with by things like increased speed/damage, shorter animation times, a wider grab radius on the swoop, better turning speeds, etc. It's not too hard to adjust numbers after making these changes, so that his overall strength stays about the same, or even gets buffed if it seems necessary.

It's just that right now, the sentinel is nonsensical to play.

Realistic? The game has vampires...

Most of what you said is just wrong. Sentinel is definitely not the strongest indoor class.

You are suggesting nerfs to an already weak class. I'm against everything you've said.

NanakoAC
1st Nov 2014, 18:06
Realistic? The game has vampires...#

Completely nonsensical argument. Here's a decent article to start you on the concept of internal consistency: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/07/11/realism-and-consistency-in-video-games-plus-killer-rabbits/

Yes a game can be realistic and still contain fantasy creatures. It's about things behaving the way they're expected to.
In simpler terms, the current state looks "buggy" and sloppy. It's unlikely to have been the designer's original goals to have things behave in these manners.

I am suggesting adjustments for immersion and consistency. The fact that they would reduce the power of the class is an unintended side effect, which can and should be compensated for.

I am not trying to nerf sentinel

What if he were given a ground based charging ability like the tyrant's, in addition to everything he already has? That would make him stronger, but it wouldn't make sense for the character. would you cheer nonsensical buffs ?

And here's an idea. Look at the problem another way.

If all the stuff i mentioned was ALREADY in place, and designed that way from the start, would you be clamouring for it to be removed? Would the forums be filled with posts like "please let us slide our face along the wall, because sentinel is too weak?"

People would be asking for buffs in other ways that made sense for the character. This thread is just demonstrating the Power of the Status Quo. Irrationally defending what already exists, instead of seeing and fixing flaws. A fear of change,

and another, far better article: http://alexanderbrazie.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/fit-your-game-internal-consistency.html

Saturnity
1st Nov 2014, 18:50
People would be asking for buffs in other ways that made sense for the character. This thread is just demonstrating the Power of the Status Quo. Irrationally defending what already exists, instead of seeing and fixing flaws. A fear of change,

Stop asking for changes that will make a weak class weaker, then. This is a competitive game, balance is king. If you want to armchair new flight mechanics that make sense, then make the class stronger while you're at it. No one will support these changes befo​re ​buffs to the class.

MasterZtark
1st Nov 2014, 18:52
Honestly I think a lot of these ideas could work, but obviously first there would need to be some "buffs" to make up for it. If the Sentinel was just all-around much stronger and faster for example then things would be balanced (and for those great Sentinel players that re-learn how to play and avoid walls, it would be more of an upgrade than just a re-balance).

At this point though, I think the Sentinel just needs flat out buffs with no downsides. Then work from there, and if something like the ideas mentioned were used then even more buffs would be needed.

NanakoAC
1st Nov 2014, 18:58
At this point though, I think the Sentinel just needs flat out buffs with no downsides. Then work from there,....

You have the right idea, but i think this is backward. Building ontop of an already-broken system is like building a castle on quicksand.

Instead;

In an internal test build only, make these changes, fix the flight mechanics to make sense (without releasing it yet), and then work from there. Add on tweaks, number adjustments, and balance changes, until he feels at least as strong as he is now, and THEN release it as a public patch.

PencileyePirate
1st Nov 2014, 21:13
Stop asking for changes that will make a weak class weaker, then. This is a competitive game, balance is king. If you want to armchair new flight mechanics that make sense, then make the class stronger while you're at it. No one will support these changes befo​re ​buffs to the class.

Quoted for truth, pretty much my exact thoughts on the thread.

--Ram--
2nd Nov 2014, 02:22
I really don't think the sentinel bumping his head and receiving concussions will add anything to gameplay. Would you like humans to stub their toes and slow down if you run into a wall also?

TeeSin
3rd Nov 2014, 14:42
ha... after 150 hours put into the game , i rarely play sentinel , and everytime i play him , i feed hard.... im so suck :nut:

KrazeyXII
3rd Nov 2014, 15:51
Sentinel needs slightly faster flight speed and different options for their secondary ability. You shouldn't have to do the evade trick to gain proper speed on the sentinel, it costs precious time and leaves you exposed. Also, air strike and dive bomb render takeoff and echolocation virtually useless.

Lastly, the sentinel could be competitive if hunters weren't so blatantly overpowered right now.

PencileyePirate
3rd Nov 2014, 22:37
Sentinel needs slightly faster flight speed and different options for their secondary ability. You shouldn't have to do the evade trick to gain proper speed on the sentinel, it costs precious time and leaves you exposed. Also, air strike and dive bomb render takeoff and echolocation virtually useless.

The evade-speedboost trick is something that needs to remain in the game, since its a useful and enjoyable mechanism that can be practiced to perfection ... but I agree that a small buff to base flight speed might be helpful (especially for newer players.)

I completely disagree with the divebomb comment, as I find it underwhelming since the mobility nerf. I've seen takeoff work well for hit-and-run attacks instead of escapes, but can agree that echolocation needs improvement.

TheDreamcrusher
4th Nov 2014, 20:00
Sentinel needs slightly faster flight speed and different options for their secondary ability. You shouldn't have to do the evade trick to gain proper speed on the sentinel, it costs precious time and leaves you exposed. Also, air strike and dive bomb render takeoff and echolocation virtually useless.

Lastly, the sentinel could be competitive if hunters weren't so blatantly overpowered right now.

Hunters, man. If they all happen to look up and shoot at you, it's like flying over a field of flak cannons.

Vampmaster
4th Nov 2014, 20:53
Sentinel needs slightly faster flight speed and different options for their secondary ability. You shouldn't have to do the evade trick to gain proper speed on the sentinel, it costs precious time and leaves you exposed. Also, air strike and dive bomb render takeoff and echolocation virtually useless.

Lastly, the sentinel could be competitive if hunters weren't so blatantly overpowered right now.

I think he needs manual speed control including stopped (or nearly stopped). The vulnerability while hovering on the spot would balance out any advantages of that. And at the very least a more reliable way to drop down.