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View Full Version : Why Psyonix/Squaresoft should withdraw cash rewards this season.



Arydious
6th Oct 2015, 16:52
Bringing in the Cash rewards is a great idea to spark interest into Nosgoth but, it's current execution is flawed. Paying players in a solo league is just wrong for a team based game. Paying players in the current league with all the exploits, bugs, and bad manners is supporting nothing that will help Nosgoth grow.

On top of lobby dodgers, on top of the recent rise of different exploits, like leaving last second to get your buddy an easy 3v4, or getting ahead in human round then hiding the entire vampire round. Ranked is just a grind, it's not based on true skill or team work. There are probably over 100 threads on these forums discussing this.

http://puu.sh/kAFtd/2121e33a75.jpg
***NOTE THEY CHOSE TO HIDE FOR 10 MINUTES INSTEAD OF FIGHTING***

This is what I have encountered for most of ranked, or a 3v4. Paying this type of behavior is just a giant red flag to your community. Please take the advice, no one will blame you for deciding to wait on the cash prizes a little longer, keep the other rewards but save the cash for when ranked is polished.

Save the cash for when you can support what the game is suppose to be, and that is team based play. Team based ranked wouldn't be a grind fest, and could be balanced a lot more.

GrayPhilosophy
6th Oct 2015, 18:40
I hate to admit it, but you're right. Despite being motivated myself to step up my game and see how far I can get, it's unfortunately riddled with flaws and open to exploitation.

Firehex
6th Oct 2015, 19:23
Wow, someone else started to use camping tactic...That is bad :(
My current problem is still matchmaking, when people in team from silver -gold division ( in most cases not so experienced players) against eternal ( most time experience players who have more than 500 hours). Last days it just depends on luck how much noobs will get in team :(

Arydious
6th Oct 2015, 19:54
The entire ranked system is luck currently. Yes there are players who are better at carrying a team than others and have more wins, but in general it's all luck.

You pray you have 1-2 people on your team who are willing to work together. The team who works together wins together. Otherwise you get 3 other people who all think they are the best or just don't care, and the game is terrible. Not just for one side but for both sides.

akr0nym
7th Oct 2015, 09:08
The entire ranked system is luck currently. Yes there are players who are better at carrying a team than others and have more wins, but in general it's all luck.

You pray you have 1-2 people on your team who are willing to work together. The team who works together wins together. Otherwise you get 3 other people who all think they are the best or just don't care, and the game is terrible. Not just for one side but for both sides.

So much this. Can't agree more.

But hey, you can't win when you're not from the US anyway, right? I don't want to win money at all but just saying.

I mean, they put the prize pool of $10k in to increase the popularity of the game and maybe also to get new players, which is a good thing and nice for all of us.

Sadly with the current matchmaking (and in leagues this MM shows its true ridiculousness) you will rather frighten new players and frustrate them so they won't touch the game again when they have to play against esl guys or 1500h+ ones. So, really devs?

Example: had a guy in my team with 25h playtime. Rest of the server were all experienced ones (500h+) it ruined the match, was not his fault but no fun at all.

I am totally cool with a hard and fair match but why this way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEZWYXPvmS8

Cheers

Akronym

Bazielim
7th Oct 2015, 10:52
But hey, you can't win when you're not from the US anyway, right? I don't wanted to win money at all but just saying.

This is incorrect, as Orghamsmith explains here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=174567&p=2168298#post2168298), it was supposed to give everyone different terms depending upon their location but a bug meant that it gave the US terms to everyone. You can enter and win from a lot more places than just the US.

Blackdeathteal
7th Oct 2015, 10:52
I have been in a match with this pissweak tatic myself its just bad sportsmanship

akr0nym
7th Oct 2015, 11:28
This is incorrect, as Orghamsmith explains here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=174567&p=2168298#post2168298), it was supposed to give everyone different terms depending upon their location but a bug meant that it gave the US terms to everyone. You can enter and win from a lot more places than just the US.

Cool didn't get that, thanks for the heads up.

But reconsidering what OP came up with would be best for all.
Save the money 'til this game mode is playable and good players earn the money, not grinders and exploiters.

Da_Wolv
7th Oct 2015, 11:44
This is incorrect, as Orghamsmith explains here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=174567&p=2168298#post2168298), it was supposed to give everyone different terms depending upon their location but a bug meant that it gave the US terms to everyone. You can enter and win from a lot more places than just the US.


Cool didn't get that, thanks for the heads up.

But reconsidering what OP came up with would be best for all.
Save the money 'til this game mode is playable and good players earn the money, not grinders and exploiters.

No you are still right.
I predict the majority of Eternal Winners will be from the US, simply because they have a far better time window to play in.
Everything east beyond Russia is **** anyway.
EU has 4-5pm to however long you can stay up - that being said, most people have jobs, or school to attend in the morning and - believe it or not - a social life.
While unemployed, no-lifers from the EU can get a good 7h of game time in each day, the US can start right after dinner and don't stop until they go to bed.

Not saying there won't be any EU's or even Russians in the final Eternal list, but the effort is gonna be magnitudes higher, to the point where winning games actually becomes important to keep up with all the people that can just get away with sheer volume of games.

Firehex
7th Oct 2015, 14:14
I mean, they put the prize pool of $10k in to increase the popularity of the game and maybe also to get new players, which is a good thing and nice for all of us.

It doesn't help. http://steamcharts.com/app/200110 We still have around 700-800 players as always.


Example: had a guy in my team with 25h playtime. Rest of the server were all experienced ones (500h+) it ruined the match, was not his fault but no fun at all.

Yeap, that's why lobby dodges happens - people don't want to play with novices.

GenocidePete
7th Oct 2015, 18:24
It doesn't help. http://steamcharts.com/app/200110 We still have around 700-800 players as always.
Do you not know how to read graphs, or...?

Firehex
7th Oct 2015, 18:48
Okay, i see some bounces on graphs: 1300-1500. That is not bad, but here comes the question: after all this frustration, hatred, toxicity, broken mmr, leaver, dodgers and etc...
How many NEW players will stay in game after tournament end ? Lets hope at least 25% of them :worship:

akr0nym
8th Oct 2015, 08:25
It doesn't help. http://steamcharts.com/app/200110 We still have around 700-800 players as always.
Interesting chart, thanks for that!

I still think they really have to do something about it.. I mean it's a f2p game and you don't need a good pc to play it properly so there should be more players.
If I play the game I rarely encounter players I do not know already. (MMR thanks for that :D)
I created an account for a friend so he can play a bit and it's amazing how fast the lobby fills with playerse. On my account I sometimes have to wait ages for a game to start :D
There are people who really want to try and play the game but I assume they leave for ever when they hit level 15 and have to play against normal players (and not newbies).
Furthermore I think that the game lacks long-time motivation (for mainstream players).

Let's see and check the graph after the league series. :)

riccetto80
8th Oct 2015, 11:10
Interesting chart, thanks for that!

I still think they really have to do something about it.. I mean it's a f2p game and you don't need a good pc to play it properly so there should be more players.

you need a super good pc because the game is bad optimized and run terrible in many config.

i can run bf4 at full hd with all medium/high at 45/60, i cannot do the same for nosgoth

akr0nym
8th Oct 2015, 11:18
Mh, I have decent specs on my current machine, so maybe I didn't take that into account..
But was able to play it on my old pc also, cpu from 2007, 4gb old ram, no ssd and so on...

Try Rust or DayZ if you want to play games that ain't optimized :D

I recommend you to check this thread and use the attached cfg files and edit these a bit, it's pretty easy.
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=149175&page=3

Sadly this will make the game look like a raw potato, but you have decent fps then :) (have about 100-130 now)

riccetto80
8th Oct 2015, 23:00
Try Rust or DayZ if you want to play games that ain't optimized :D

this is not an open world with +30/50/100 player together and immense map...

Firehex
9th Oct 2015, 02:02
I have 12 gb ram and don't have any lags long ago +) Anyway it's strange why people sometimes keep reporting about lags...I am sure it's problem with their internet host/ nosgoth server.

Oghamsmith
9th Oct 2015, 10:27
Rather than withdraw cash rewards, we would prefer to fix the issues like lobby dodging.

As many of you will have noticed over the last few days, some players' behaviour tends to change when the stakes are raised. The only way to test our systems against that kind of behaviour is to run the League with full prizing. That has highlighted a number of areas in which we need to make improvements. Hence the beta League status. I know it can be frustrating, and I thank you for your patience as we work to address the issues where we can.

Regards,
Chris

P.S. As for odd networking performance during League, I'm going to create another thread to gather more info about that from you guys.

akr0nym
9th Oct 2015, 12:04
this is not an open world with +30/50/100 player together and immense map...

true story...


I have 12 gb ram and don't have any lags long ago +) Anyway it's strange why people sometimes keep reporting about lags...I am sure it's problem with their internet host/ nosgoth server.

i have 8 and no issues in any game. The game can also lag due to server lags (as you said, nosgoth servers).


Rather than withdraw cash rewards, we would prefer to fix the issues like lobby dodging.

Meaning no offense but is there any chance you fix it in a timely manner? (this league?)
I think most nosgoth players don't give a dang about the cash prizes (maybe the new skin, but the money? eh).

With your current system it's pure grinding anyway. Who want's to grind in a game like Nosgoth?
All I want is fair matches and futhermore another matchmaking system for leagues. 25h guys in my team? Or better: Yesterday I had someone with 0.2h Nosgoth. Are you serious?

Nosgoth is a really great game, and I appreciate all the good work. I had a lot of fun with the game, bought it a while ago, way before it became f2p.

But why don't you listen to the community? The problems with the lobby (dodgin and 3vs4 matches) isa problem since the very first start of leagues, it's nothing new.

If you really want to do integrate the community: Why don't you start with polls? Check Rust (http://playrust.com), they really care about ideas and also give information every week (on their website). I don't say: "You gotta do it like that:mad:!!!" but maybe you should really reconsider the thoughts and worries of the community. At some point also the "veteran" players will get frustrated and move on to other games.


The only way to test our systems against that kind of behaviour is to run the League with full prizing.
Don't you think ppl would still have cheated to win with unfair methods? It's not like they found it out because they knew: I can win money. So this arguement doesn't really make sense to me.

Well, I am pretty sure they won't start acting like saints now and just let it be. ;) So we really need a fix for that.


P.S. As for odd networking performance during League, I'm going to create another thread to gather more info about that from you guys..
Thanks for that. :)

Arydious
10th Oct 2015, 01:33
Rather than withdraw cash rewards, we would prefer to fix the issues like lobby dodging.

As many of you will have noticed over the last few days, some players' behaviour tends to change when the stakes are raised. The only way to test our systems against that kind of behaviour is to run the League with full prizing. That has highlighted a number of areas in which we need to make improvements. Hence the beta League status. I know it can be frustrating, and I thank you for your patience as we work to address the issues where we can.

Regards,
Chris

P.S. As for odd networking performance during League, I'm going to create another thread to gather more info about that from you guys.

Chris,

I appreciate your feedback in the thread. I would like to point out a couple things though. These player behaviors have been the same since League 1, there was a ton of feedback regarding it.

You even said yourself this is a way to test things, but why offer so much money and support a single player behavior?

I understand this is very far out of your hands but there isn't much of a possiblity of fixing the current ranked this season, meaning people are going to earn things they don't deserve.

I think we can all agree with an increase prize pool, there are dirtier tactics being used, and more complaints on the forums. I want to keep this as positive as possible, but it's looking grim. I can say I ahve done over 15 matches today, 2 of them have been good full matches, the rest have been 3v4 or worse, or involved vampirs camping and hiding.

Cheers

xeno2k
10th Oct 2015, 08:29
Rather than withdraw cash rewards, we would prefer to fix the issues like lobby dodging.

As many of you will have noticed over the last few days, some players' behaviour tends to change when the stakes are raised. The only way to test our systems against that kind of behaviour is to run the League with full prizing. That has highlighted a number of areas in which we need to make improvements. Hence the beta League status. I know it can be frustrating, and I thank you for your patience as we work to address the issues where we can.

Regards,
Chris

P.S. As for odd networking performance during League, I'm going to create another thread to gather more info about that from you guys.

Let me get this straight, you guys rather continue this league for the next two weeks and actually pay out 10.000 prizepool to those people who spent all their time on this game and whom constantly lobby dodge and bug lobbies for others? Very interesting marketing strategy. Might as well throw 10.000 down the drain, because it's the same effect. Most of these people are unworthy of getting this money. Not only is this league not about skill but it's just about who can spend most of their time on it and is willing to dodge any good players and requeue. The amount of times I've seen several players in the top10 Eternal rank dodge me simply because I'm an ESL player, is just pathetic.

Can't believe how contradictive you've guys been now compared to the past. Clearly none of you nosgoth employees even play League. It's downright hell, i've never witnessed such a ranked based system that actually pays out such a large sum of money with all the current nonsense going on. Not only is the entire MMR broken, but the players abuse anything they want. Choosing their own opponents, roofcamp if needed, bug lobbies for other players, and grind grind grind.

Anyways you guys should do whatever makes you happy, the steamcharts (barely) don't even show any growth, plus most people are unhappy with the way you're presenting the league for cash. People that go to school or have work are probably not even able to get into the top100. So I assume your targeted audience are a bunch of jobless lads that don't have anything better to do.

SonixSquad
10th Oct 2015, 10:32
It would probably cost them more than 10k just to hire an extra team member to help find more bugs. We all know stress testing (server load/balance) is all part of Alpha/Betas. Without the player numbers, you can't test stability.
So the prize pool makes sense in that regards to me as a means to get loads of players into the MM and to have at it, bugs and all. This current phase was never about rewarding skill IMO (although the end result should definitely be about that). More about revealing the kinks in the system as has been stated.

Is this the ideal way to go about this? No.
Are the lobby dodgers & exploiters going to try and take advantage of the system? Yes.
Will this **** off the community? probably, usually has done in every competitive Beta/Alpha I've ever been part of.
Will the devs remove the unworthy from the top 100? Hopefully they can keep track of that via leave rate etc.

Seems Psyonix/Square like a bit of gambling and they are illustrating this with their methods that could push the community either way.

All that really matters are two things;

1> The community keeps feeding back the exploits, bugs and what it wants during this testing phase and doesn't focus too hard on 'who' is 'winning' what is essentially a test league.
2> The devs listen and fix before the community diminishes. More regular patches would be better IMO.


For what its worth, I do agree with the OP but at this stage I think its too late to withdraw the cash prizes without risking the loss of a chunk of testers.

Keep at it!

riccetto80
10th Oct 2015, 12:01
Rather than withdraw cash rewards, we would prefer to fix the issues like lobby dodging.

As many of you will have noticed over the last few days, some players' behaviour tends to change when the stakes are raised. The only way to test our systems against that kind of behaviour is to run the League with full prizing. That has highlighted a number of areas in which we need to make improvements. Hence the beta League status. I know it can be frustrating, and I thank you for your patience as we work to address the issues where we can.

NO NO AND NO!

this is like when the previous community manager write about "player perception of ranked as grind", when was NOT a perception, lol.

We have different ranked alpha/beta before, ALL THIS BEHAVIOR/EXPLOIT/BUGS/BAD MECHANIC CHOICE and so, was already there.

Money prizes give people reason to actively exploit all was possible, but all this was already exploit before on older beta and we open already many post/topic about.

So, was not need the money prize to discover this issues and we dont need the money prize to put you to fix it, was just necessary some planning in advance, sadly seems this lack completely in the nosgoth dev team.