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Necro71
24th Oct 2014, 11:12
Game is full of bugs, right now many people cant finish one game without getting kicked, still problem with matchmaking, lobby bug when game dont start becouse 8th player cant join... And devs implement event where you have 28 items to buy from shop, how the hell people with bugs should be able to get gold for that? And its only week long event and devs dont do nothing with this, there should be rollback patch to moment when everything was working. I know, people working at problem but honestly guys, this should be taken care of much faster, bugs like that makes ur game unplayable and speed of fixing them (ages) makes you look like gold diggers especially right now with this event where many people care to get event items and are unable to earn gold in game so the only option for them will be buying runestones. Im really dissapointed, even if Psyonix and Square Enix don't care. Devs of game that aims for E-Sports should take care of such a huge problems much faster atleast with bugs that makes you'r game unplayable like that.

Sorry for my bad english.

RizeMythos
24th Oct 2014, 11:46
You should know that the people who organised the event were probably PR or another division of the team and not the Net managers or programmers who would be the ones responsible for fixing the existing bugs. The only bug I'm experiencing is freezing mid game, where everything works (tab, esc, etc..) and even the apex cloths and foliage will sway but no pawns move.

The bugs are being worked on but the team from Psyonix that are working on them are a tiny fraction of a tiny dev team. The devs aren't gold diggers because they expect you to pay for the new things using in game gold, which it takes about an hour to get 1,000 of... they don't get IRL currency for a virtual, ingame deal. The amount of bugs that existed a month ago is far superior than the amount of them that exist now. They are constantly releasing undocumented hotfixes and there are even some server tweaks that go undocumented and your game doesn't need an update for.

These problems will be fixed in the coming three months when the game goes open beta. We are getting a complete overhaul and expect some great things from the new systems because the devs are inviting people from the community to come along and test them before anyone else gets to play on them. The new ranking and balancing system should out-do a lot of MP games that are around now.

I'm patient for these updates because I know Nosgoth is a game worth waiting for.Many devs have gotten this whole asymmetrical pvp thing completely wrong but now Psyonix, they know what they're doing with this. Sure they attend a lot of conventions and that delays development but IMO, it was great to meet them at Gamescom and they listen to all of the feedback that people give them on the forum, on Reddit and indeed in person at these conventions. I remember one of the devs (didn't get a name) coming over to me when I raged saying that I got killed by a reaver that was bola-bound, looking into the conditions and system environment at the time. The game is really new so expect bugs. Psyonix are NOT behind Nosgoth being added to ESL and are not aiming for an e-Sport, from my talking about the competitive scene to Cat, they would like one but it is up to us to bring one to the game. Being added to ESL was a major stepping stone but it is by no means a main stage game at this point in time

Necro71
24th Oct 2014, 12:07
Look, game is still in Closed Beta and adding more items for IRL cash like skins, executions is ok, anybody who wish to support company can do it. But creating an event with so many new items in shop (28) in moment when many people have problems playing (i played around 14h's last 4 days and earned 400 gold becouse of kicks at the end of the game and random game freezes where only option is ctrl+alt+delete and close the process) only option to earn those items is buy runestones for real cash and than buy items from shop, now lets do some math 28x1000=28k runestones to get those you need to buy 20k runestones for 58,40 euro and 9200 for 29,20 whitch gives in totoal 87,60 euro if u wanna buy them all.
Now some people will say that "you dont need to buy those items" - sure i don't need, but i wanna have them and i cant buy them becouse i will not spend such a ammount of real money for in game items, and i'm unable to farm gold for days.
Conclusion - event is ok, but adding payable items in moment when you cant farm gold becouse of bugs that are alredy in game for some time and problem is not solved, could and can be called gold digging, becouse somebody in company that creats Nosgoth knows the situation and still makes decision to run event like that in moment when this should be stalled till time everything works, but instead he prefere to do it this way counting that people will spend their cash.

EVENTS LIKE THAT SHOULDNT BE RUNNING TILL GAME IS IN BETA STAGE. It would be diffrent situation with total wipe when game gets out from the beta, but there will not be from what i know, whitch is bad idea.

-Konf-
24th Oct 2014, 13:12
I don't know, I guess a lot of people will say how disappointed they are because "developers should be spending time on fixing bugs instead of running events during closed beta". I understand the frustration, I play the game too and encounter the same issues, but when people are making some special in-game things for me to enjoy - I will be grateful for that.

The game is in beta, bugs are there and they can't be fixed instantly, otherwise we'd be playing live right now. This is a project that has its schedule and timelines and everything will be fixed in its due time.

I don't know, maybe my opinion isn't as strong as yours because I don't get disconnected as much as you say you do. I get kicked out of the game occasionally, but not as often to stop me from farming enough gold.

And I disagree that this act can be deemed as "gold digging" by the developers. Yes, there are 28 items to buy. Do you really need them all? Majority of those 28 items are human weapons, and to be honest I feel like you don't need more than 1 (2 max) per class for the common load outs that you will end up playing with 99% of the time.

From another perspective, each and every player, including the ones that are starting out, will be able to farm enough gold in a week to buy at least one item. And I think that's already something to look forward to - because when the game goes live you will already look like a veteran with an exclusive gun to show off.

I don't know, but I'm thankful for any effort that people generally put to make things for others. Bugs are bugs and they will get fixed eventually. In the meantime, why not enjoy the event? Yes, issues make the experience less smooth but if you think abut it - those bugs will be around for a time. So if there was no event, we'd just be playing with the same bugs, in the same environment we currently have, but without extra goodies to collect.

RoflBalast
24th Oct 2014, 13:34
Bugs? I've been playing this game a lot last few days and I didn't notice any bugs which prevented me from getting gold. I got a lot of coins and I am saving for halloween, some runestones too.
Kicked mid game? Never happened. Lastslot? Never since last patch. Freezing? Since I unbound my voicechat button, that never happened. Problem with matchmaking? Yeah that's sad, but still playable.
Those items are going to be "rare/unique/special/promotion" so regular player should have 1-2 max.
Devs are trying to make something interesting and fun, and you blame them for that? Well thanks! That's helpfull and motivationalsarcasm

Necro71
24th Oct 2014, 13:58
Bugs? I've been playing this game a lot last few days and I didn't notice any bugs which prevented me from getting gold. I got a lot of coins and I am saving for halloween, some runestones too.
Kicked mid game? Never happened. Lastslot? Never since last patch. Freezing? Since I unbound my voicechat button, that never happened. Problem with matchmaking? Yeah that's sad, but still playable.
Those items are going to be "rare/unique/special/promotion" so regular player should have 1-2 max.
Devs are trying to make something interesting and fun, and you blame them for that? Well thanks! That's helpfull and motivationalsarcasm

Just read the forum. Becouse You dont have some kind of sickness does not mean that it does not exist.
Its typicall talk of person who thinks only about himself.
Once again, i will tell, for previous 30-40 games i was able to finish 4, only one from those was from start to finish, three was becouse i joined game that was alredy ending (enemy team had 20-25 points alredy). This problem does not only includes me, there are many other people. What i dont understand is why it happens only to part of peaople, not all.

RoflBalast
24th Oct 2014, 16:34
You know there is solution for "all game I join is 20-25 points to enemy team and 0-1 to mine, it's also second round" is staying in that lobby for next map. That happens when you leave lobby because "we lost anyway" and try to join new one. I rarely change server I am playing on and that's why I don't encounter such "unfair lategame join".

JanusDominus
24th Oct 2014, 16:57
You know there is solution for "all game I join is 20-25 points to enemy team and 0-1 to mine, it's also second round" is staying in that lobby for next map. That happens when you leave lobby because "we lost anyway" and try to join new one. I rarely change server I am playing on and that's why I don't encounter such "unfair lategame join".
It's not a solution, it's a workaround. The problem still stands. Besides, the game should be good right away, not if you wait and then maybe, MAYBE (and even then there's no guarantee the teams won't stay like they were in the previous match, which they most likely will with one exception).

RoflBalast
24th Oct 2014, 17:09
What? It's a workaround? So abandoning already in progress game is ok? What's point of switching lobbies? It's like you guys are intentionaly trying to get into such unfair situations, suffer, get 0 gold and then complain? What's stoping you from playing on the same lobby for 10-20 games?

JanusDominus
24th Oct 2014, 17:21
What? It's a workaround? So abandoning already in progress game is ok? What's point of switching lobbies? It's like you guys are intentionaly trying to get into such unfair situations, suffer, get 0 gold and then complain? What's stoping you from playing on the same lobby for 10-20 games?

Well, for one, the game crashes on me every 2 games, for two, the question "why can't the game be good right away" is left unanswered. I don't want to suffer just to get to the good stuff. I want the good stuff right away.

Psyonix_Eric
24th Oct 2014, 17:48
There are lots of people working on the game, in many different departments. We do know that there are other bugs such as matchmaking, crashes, etc. It is true that the game is still in beta and as a result those of you who are in the beta will be a part of the "less than glorious" moments of development, and we definitely apologize if those times are frustrating. We play at home, too, and we run into the same things.

That being said, RizeMythos is correct in that those of us responsible for things like mysterious weapon effects have literally nothing to do with things like matchmaking, so we just keep plugging ahead with the things we want to add while the other stuff gets worked on. In the end we intend to fix every bug that we can but we won't put art on hold while matchmaking (or whatever) gets sorted, because otherwise the art team will just sit around bored.

Does it then end up looking like all we're doing is adding bells and whistles to the game? Yeah, unfortunately that's how it can appear. I've seen it happen in games I play as well and I know how frustrating that appearance can be. Just try to keep in mind that sorting out matchmaking or these other bugs is happening the entire time this other stuff is being made, but things don't always end up being finished at the same time, so we get out the things we can while others are still in progress.

#thejoysofbetas

Khalith
24th Oct 2014, 17:52
That being said, RizeMythos is correct in that those of us responsible for things like mysterious weapon effects have literally nothing to do with things like matchmaking, so we just keep plugging ahead with the things we want to add while the other stuff gets worked on. In the end we intend to fix every bug that we can but we won't put art on hold while matchmaking (or whatever) gets sorted, because otherwise the art team will just sit around bored.

Clearly the solution is to give the art team some crash courses in game programming and have them help fix the issues. :p

Psyonix_Eric
24th Oct 2014, 18:33
Clearly the solution is to give the art team some crash courses in game programming and have them help fix the issues. :p
I always like to tease the programmers that they're artists too..... copy and paste artists. ;)

Nemesis777
24th Oct 2014, 21:58
I always like to tease the programmers that they're artists too..... copy and paste artists. ;)
Wait, so you didn't just copy-pasted the code from other parts of this game to patch that hotfix for latest update? :lol:

Psyonix_Eric
25th Oct 2014, 00:04
Wait, so you didn't just copy-pasted the code from other parts of this game to patch that hotfix for latest update? :lol:
I didn't do any coding, even in copy pasta form.

Ghostflux
27th Oct 2014, 10:31
I can't even finish a game, so if the items are awarded after the game, then chances are I can't even be part of the event due to that.

It's a useless event if this isn't fixed first.

Blastin_Foolz
27th Oct 2014, 12:41
I can't even finish a game, so if the items are awarded after the game, then chances are I can't even be part of the event due to that.

It's a useless event if this isn't fixed first.

Technically, only useless for you.

I'm having no issues with my game's sustainability after the fact, it sounds like it's something on your end. Either way, regardless of the outcome, the rewards for participating in this event aren't detrimental functionality wise to your time in Nosgoth nor are they specifically beneficial. Just silly little rewards for fun that the staff was nice enough to include.

Pannendienst
27th Oct 2014, 13:15
Just silly little rewards for fun that the staff was nice enough to include.

And it will be still the most exciting content in the whole game, so far.

Illusa
27th Oct 2014, 13:20
Technically, only useless for you.

I'm having no issues with my game's sustainability after the fact, it sounds like it's something on your end. Either way, regardless of the outcome, the rewards for participating in this event aren't detrimental functionality wise to your time in Nosgoth nor are they specifically beneficial. Just silly little rewards for fun that the staff was nice enough to include.

While true that the event is silly at best, there are people that are "collectors". This has been a thing since pokemon showed how dumb ppl are over collecting everything for games. And the stupidity they will go to to collect them all. Many people feel they don't have the complete game unless they have everything as well.

So having serious issues during this even can turn a positive event into something very negative. I've seen it before in other game. Even minor issues start to stand out as they cost you the opportunity to get the items during that event. Toss on the fact they added RNG on getting the items, it can be HIGHLY frustrating to the player base. Someone will get one the first game, someone won't get one at all even after 20 games. That aspect can be stupidly annoying, specially since there is no trading implemented into the game yet. The only saving grace is that you can buy the weapons in the shop. So even if you get stupidly unlucky with the rng, you can still buy the items.

So the idea that this could be a horrible time to do the event is partly true.
1) if there are technical problems and people cannot play and get an item, they will be upset.
2) if due to unlucky rng they don't get an item in a fashion they feel is right, they will be upset.

My only worry is ppl will just not care about seriously playing during this time and just "farm" the game for the items. As the sheer number of items to get is stupidly high and the cost is most likely stupidly high for it. And for those not wanting to take the chance at never seeing the items again, it will be one hell of a grind to get all the items. So doing it efficiently will be the goal of some people.

--Ram--
27th Oct 2014, 13:43
Farming for items and playing the game are the same thing are they not? All you have to do is complete games.

Illusa
27th Oct 2014, 13:57
Farming for items and playing the game are the same thing are they not? All you have to do is complete games.

The key word was efficiently.

In this case it is best to just throw games fast and that would increase your income faster while gaining you more attempts at randomly getting the item. So you and 3 buddies could just screw around and constantly throw games over the whole week and have your best opportunity to get items.

Does that sound fun to do or have done to you? Is that really the purpose of the game?

Also the "fun" of doing or having it done to you will wear off fairly fast. We are talking a week of this potentially. This could easily turn into Human (or Vamp) team throws each round, both ppl tie.. and both teams get top gold while also ending each game in a super fast manor. Logically this is the best choice during this event, and possibly even after it if you want to earn gold faster or drops of items faster. As the only thing that changes about the drop is that it won't be the Halloween drop but the Mysterious drop instead.

Needless to say, this is an issue the game has that could happen.

--Ram--
27th Oct 2014, 14:07
Lol at anyone who even considers something like that.

Vampmaster
27th Oct 2014, 14:12
The key word was efficiently.

In this case it is best to just throw games fast and that would increase your income faster while gaining you more attempts at randomly getting the item. So you and 3 buddies could just screw around and constantly throw games over the whole week and have your best opportunity to get items.

Does that sound fun to do or have done to you? Is that really the purpose of the game?

Also the "fun" of doing or having it done to you will wear off fairly fast. We are talking a week of this potentially. This could easily turn into Human (or Vamp) team throws each round, both ppl tie.. and both teams get top gold while also ending each game in a super fast manor. Logically this is the best choice during this event, and possibly even after it if you want to earn gold faster or drops of items faster. As the only thing that changes about the drop is that it won't be the Halloween drop but the Mysterious drop instead.

Needless to say, this is an issue the game has that could happen.

I think there should be ways of increasing your odds of getting items by performing kills streaks, mid-air kills, doing a specified amount of damage in a single attack and other difficult actions in-game. Those should be called out somewhere, as long as they don't obstruct the view.

--Ram--
27th Oct 2014, 14:31
To me any mechanic which distracts players from just playing to win and has them thinking about items during a match would be a big turnoff. I don't want a guy on my team holding back to last hit and kill steal a player just to keep his streak going so he can get a shiny item.

PencileyePirate
27th Oct 2014, 14:44
To me any mechanic which distracts players from just playing to win and has them thinking about items during a match would be a big turnoff. I don't want a guy on my team holding back to last hit and kill steal a player just to keep his streak going so he can get a shiny item.

Kills don't have any affect on drops ... so this shouldn't be an issue.

TBH I'm pretty happy for a mechanic that encourages players to stay until end of match.

Vampmaster
27th Oct 2014, 14:44
To me any mechanic which distracts players from just playing to win and has them thinking about items during a match would be a big turnoff. I don't want a guy on my team holding back to last hit and kill steal a player just to keep his streak going so he can get a shiny item.

Would you prefer no randoms at all, but guaranteed rewards for leagues and tournaments etc? That's not really my thing, but there's nothing wrong with different rules for different modes. It might be a more popular way to unlock things for the eSports crowd.

Illusa
27th Oct 2014, 14:50
Lol at anyone who even considers something like that.

Well this is a beta for a reason. It's good to point out issues like this.

Same as the issue that if the humans win the first round the next round all they have to do is wait someplace the humans cannot get to as vampires and win without even fighting.

Both of these issues are part of the core way the game mechanics currently operate. Which means they need to be looked at a bit or accept these issues as common place.

One is core because of the balance of the game currently. Humans should be weaker and scale the least. Thus the odds of the humans winning is FAR less. That or allow humans to go anywhere that vampires do, thus they have no hiding places. But both of those options bring other negatives. If humans are weaker it makes other game modes harder to do as well, if you wanted to add more. Which could possibly stagnate the game in some people's eyes. Also it does not really fix the issue that happens when humans win, just makes it harder to do and harder to come back from if it does happen. And if humans can go where vampires can go, with their range supremacy they will seriously make playing vampire a LOT harder than it already is (note I am talking high end/end game play).

With the items, the real reason to do this method of "farming" is because of 2 core mechanics built around the economy and the attempts to control the gold influx/item gain. As it stands you get X gold by completing a game and get a very small extra amount based on how well you played. So the only way to get gold in the game is to play as many matches as possible. Next comes Mysterious weapons, the only way to get them is through rng at the end of completed games, which heavily favors you NOT getting an item. The two combined can create an issue of people wanting to complete games as fast as possible because that is the only way to net both gold and items. The faster you go, the faster you earn those rewards. Half trying to win will net you not much in return but a bigger loss. So going for broke and just getting it done as fast as possible is the best course of action.

Sadly there is no way to really fix this issue easily. You could make gold be given in terms of timed played, so the longer the game the more gold you get. Which would then make it less likely for people to farm but also mean some ppl would be upset joining games that are almost over as it would be a waste of their time and also make long queue times very very annoying. Or you reduce what gold one gets naturally from winning or losing and have your gold potential be more in tune with your performance in the game. Thus if you do well, you earn a lot of gold and if you don't well you don't. But that isn't newbie friendly in the least bit.

In the case of the items, if there was a trade system in place it would probably be better and solve most reasons to farm (and I expect that to happen at some point). But if no trade option was around, the better way to handle it is to simply not have RNG be a factor in when someone gets the item. Basically make it less hard to get the items and ppl will feel less the need to farm for them. The more RNG the more ppl will farm it. While this is great for the game in terms of getting people to play, they may not be playing for the right reasons in the end and that can hurt the social structure of the game. I don't care about winning, just playing. The game play isn't the reason I am playing anymore, it is an item. So trying isn't necessarily something I have to do or care to do while playing.

--Ram--
27th Oct 2014, 15:10
Would you prefer no randoms at all, but guaranteed rewards for leagues and tournaments etc? That's not really my thing, but there's nothing wrong with different rules for different modes. It might be a more popular way to unlock things for the eSports crowd.

I'm kind of indifferent about the random drops the way they are handled now, just wouldn't want to see a move toward in game behaviour being a factor on how they are earned.

When I play I want to win and I want my team to do the same and have that as their only focus in a match. Given how crazy some people are for these items i could definitely see them changing their in-game behavior if that would help them get a shiny item. People go mad for in game shiny stuff its quite bizarre. Buying CS:GO knives for hundreds of dollars. I will never understand.

I like the way unlockable skins are done. Something to work towards that is a bit of fun to get but not a focus of any game, just something you get in time.

Pretty much i just think its better when the game itself is what draws people to play and compete, not all the gimmicky grindy stuff. I think there is more than enough of that already for new players needing to unlock endless abilities and guns just to be on a level playing field.




Same as the issue that if the humans win the first round the next round all they have to do is wait someplace the humans cannot get to as vampires and win without even fighting.



Team deathmatch is probably a good game mode for gauging general balance during the beta, and for more casual play. For an asymmetric game where one team has a mobility advantage it can't really be a proper competitive mode for reasons you stated. Pretty sure the devs are aware of this however so it shouldn't continue to be a problem once better objective based modes are available as options (and to be honest this rarely is a problem anyway in pub games, unless it is close to the end of round 2 and vamps are just winning).

Vampmaster
27th Oct 2014, 15:58
I'm kind of indifferent about the random drops the way they are handled now, just wouldn't want to see a move toward in game behaviour being a factor on how they are earned.

When I play I want to win and I want my team to do the same and have that as their only focus in a match. Given how crazy some people are for these items i could definitely see them changing their in-game behavior if that would help them get a shiny item. People go mad for in game shiny stuff its quite bizarre. Buying CS:GO knives for hundreds of dollars. I will never understand.

I like the way unlockable skins are done. Something to work towards that is a bit of fun to get but not a focus of any game, just something you get in time.

Pretty much i just think its better when the game itself is what draws people to play and compete, not all the gimmicky grindy stuff. I think there is more than enough of that already for new players needing to unlock endless abilities and guns just to be on a level playing field.

Well, for me it's more a case of I just did this awesome thing and the game is taking notice. I'm not that interested in pointing out my place on the leaderboard, because I'll probably never be that good and don't know that many people who'd care it I was. I do have my moments though and I'd rather have some way to celebrate those rare occasions.

Jallford
27th Oct 2014, 16:05
I really hope the crash bug has been fixed or I won't be able to take part in this event.

There's no reason the event shouldn't go ahead though.

Ghostflux
28th Oct 2014, 10:16
Technically, only useless for you.

I'm having no issues with my game's sustainability after the fact, it sounds like it's something on your end. Either way, regardless of the outcome, the rewards for participating in this event aren't detrimental functionality wise to your time in Nosgoth nor are they specifically beneficial. Just silly little rewards for fun that the staff was nice enough to include.

Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's something on my end. That's about the biggest logical error you can make when trying to resolve IT problems. Fact of the matter is I had zero issues with the game until the latest patch, and it's pretty much similar to the issue that the OP explained. It's clearly not just me, so who knows how many may end up being affected by this issue.

I'm sure you wouldn't exactly be happy either when you were excluded from anything either.

RainaAudron
28th Oct 2014, 12:38
While true that the event is silly at best, there are people that are "collectors". This has been a thing since pokemon showed how dumb ppl are over collecting everything for games. And the stupidity they will go to to collect them all. Many people feel they don't have the complete game unless they have everything as well.

Why would anybody be dumb and stupid if he wants to collect stuff? It´s your choice if you want or not, I do not get your reasoning for claiming that.

Illusa
28th Oct 2014, 13:02
Why would anybody be dumb and stupid if he wants to collect stuff? It´s your choice if you want or not, I do not get your reasoning for claiming that.

Because in this sense what you don't understand is they basically pulled a psychological trick on you by not giving you the full game at the start. Instead they were like.. ok.. lets make it stupidly hard to get everything and give options to get them all to make it easier with money. And if we add in tons of them we can make bank off this.

Bam.. you are compelled to buy them all because you feel incomplete without them and then a HUGE change in gaming happened right after because people saw the money they could make off people wanting to have a full game/options.

So it's been so long this way that people don't remember getting games that were complete from the start and it was about game play and not grinding to get something that we used to get from the start. So the concept of not grinding for things or getting everything at the start has been lost.

That is the dumb aspect to it. Because it was a marketing scheme that played on simple stupid human mindsets. Similar to how in America we feel compelled to give a diamond wedding ring to our female counterparts. It wasn't a thing until the leading producer of Diamonds start running some amazing ad campaigns and eventually put that idea into the mass majority of Americans to the point that it is the thing to do now. Humans in general are easily manipulated.

Now are collectors dumb in general terms, no. May not be my thing, but in general it isn't dumb. Though it could also be an OCD/OCPD if it is a strong feeling that hurts your day to day life.

RainaAudron
28th Oct 2014, 13:14
Because in this sense what you don't understand is they basically pulled a psychological trick on you by not giving you the full game at the start. Instead they were like.. ok.. lets make it stupidly hard to get everything and give options to get them all to make it easier with money. And if we add in tons of them we can make bank off this.

Bam.. you are compelled to buy them all because you feel incomplete without them and then a HUGE change in gaming happened right after because people saw the money they could make off people wanting to have a full game/options.

I disagree - it isn´t "stupidly" hard to get everything, I have 70 000 gold and finally have a reason to spend it on something, even though I won´t get all weapons/abilities probably, only the ones I play with. A goldsink was very needed.

It is not the fault of the game if you feel compelled to get the new items though. The new ones are just cosmetic change anyway.


So it's been so long this way that people don't remember getting games that were complete from the start and it was about game play and not grinding to get something that we used to get from the start. So the concept of not grinding for things or getting everything at the start has been lost
I am not really sure if this applies to Nosgoth though. If you were given everything from the start, you would have no sense of progression at all. Besides, in lots of games you need to be a certain level or reach a point in the game when you can start to use different equipment. Here it is done through gold/exp rewards and I think it is fine. I think you are getting grinding and DLC content mixed up a little.


Similar to how in America we feel compelled to give a diamond wedding ring to our female counterparts. It wasn't a thing until the leading producer of Diamonds start running some amazing ad campaigns and eventually put that idea into the mass majority of Americans to the point that it is the thing to do now. Humans in general are easily manipulated.
That all falls back to people falling for that marketing ploy and I am sure lots of people don´t buy such expensive ones. I sure do not require a diamond ring myself, lol!


Now are collectors dumb in general terms, no. May not be my thing, but in general it isn't dumb.
Good to hear that. I spent quite a lot of time by playing Pokémon games and getting all 151 and 250 in Red and Silver was fun.

Sanguise23
28th Oct 2014, 13:47
Because in this sense what you don't understand is they basically pulled a psychological trick on you by not giving you the full game at the start. Instead they were like.. ok.. lets make it stupidly hard to get everything and give options to get them all to make it easier with money. And if we add in tons of them we can make bank off this.

Bam.. you are compelled to buy them all because you feel incomplete without them and then a HUGE change in gaming happened right after because people saw the money they could make off people wanting to have a full game/options.

So it's been so long this way that people don't remember getting games that were complete from the start and it was about game play and not grinding to get something that we used to get from the start. So the concept of not grinding for things or getting everything at the start has been lost.

That is the dumb aspect to it. Because it was a marketing scheme that played on simple stupid human mindsets. Similar to how in America we feel compelled to give a diamond wedding ring to our female counterparts. It wasn't a thing until the leading producer of Diamonds start running some amazing ad campaigns and eventually put that idea into the mass majority of Americans to the point that it is the thing to do now. Humans in general are easily manipulated.

Now are collectors dumb in general terms, no. May not be my thing, but in general it isn't dumb. Though it could also be an OCD/OCPD if it is a strong feeling that hurts your day to day life.

ok not having a complete game in beta is ALL BETA GAMES!! I dont know why you think they are making bank of these FX items you can spend gold on them (unless i misunderstood what you were saying) I do agree with the diamonds thing (except its for engagement rings not wedding bands)

Illusa
28th Oct 2014, 14:41
I disagree - it isn´t "stupidly" hard to get everything, I have 70 000 gold and finally have a reason to spend it on something, even though I won´t get all weapons/abilities probably, only the ones I play with. A goldsink was very needed.

It is not the fault of the game if you feel compelled to get the new items though. The new ones are just cosmetic change anyway.

Well obviously you have been around in the closed beta for a LONG time. As someone that has not yet hit 40 myself (38/39 cannot remember which) I have maybe 1500 gold at best. That is if I didn't spend it all on getting the new alchemy ability. Thus the majority of players are NOT in the same boat as you. We have to count on drops or earn enough gold during the event to get a few items. Which could turn people into raging idiots because they now feel they need to grind to get them all because there is no word or not that they will be around next year as well for people to get.

Also some are not cosmetics, some are MI that just have that FX. So you can get "better" options with them if you are lucky.



I am not really sure if this applies to Nosgoth though. If you were given everything from the start, you would have no sense of progression at all. Besides, in lots of games you need to be a certain level or reach a point in the game when you can start to use different equipment. Here it is done through gold/exp rewards and I think it is fine. I think you are getting grinding and DLC content mixed up a little.

And that right there tells me you are hooked into that style. Because back in the day games didn't have to have some feeling of "progression" because the progression was your ability to get better at your skills at playing the game. And that was the amazing factor to the game. There was depth to games that is harder to find now as they add more bells and whistles with little depth. There is nothing wrong with the fact you may not have experienced the older games and what they offered. It's not your fault that the industry has changed to the point it is today. The idea of "progression" is partly around because of the whole pokemon issue that popped up and a mix of RPGs getting hyrbided into FPS games as well. The two combined give us games like Nosgoth today (not a horrible thing mind you). But the idea of "progression" in terms of grinding some aspect of the game is still a new thing for FPS games in general. It was maybe 10/12 years ago when RPG elements started getting put into FPS games and it has slowly come to the point it is now.


ok not having a complete game in beta is ALL BETA GAMES!! I dont know why you think they are making bank of these FX items you can spend gold on them (unless i misunderstood what you were saying) I do agree with the diamonds thing (except its for engagement rings not wedding bands)

What I was getting at is that a lot of games have two major aspects to them now, partly due to the f2p system as well. One is that Pokemon showed the gaming industry there is a market in having a TON of things that take a while to get and people will still pay for it. And the second is the rise of RPG elements to FPS games as well.

So now FPS games are not coming out with full content unlocked at the start. Old examples would be Unreal Tourny and Quake.. where you just picked up the weapon you wanted in the game where it spawned. Everyone had access to it right from the start and it was balanced because of this. But since games like BF and CoD have seriously taken control of a HUGE market of FPS games.. RPG elements such as grinding levels came into play. And to make you feel like there is a "reason" to do this, they give you unlocks to items in the game as you progress. Thus you get some feeling of accomplishment for doing something you didn't want to do to begin with back in the day.

Slowly over time this has become the standard, which to me.. I find highly annoying. But that is because I am a bit old =p This had nothing to do with the fact this is a beta or new FX items have come out. That is part of what the f2p environment brings with it, as it is just the byproduct of what marketing has shown thanks to games like Pokemon.

And opps.. yeah engagement ring not wedding band =p

Sanguise23
28th Oct 2014, 17:40
Well obviously you have been around in the closed beta for a LONG time. As someone that has not yet hit 40 myself (38/39 cannot remember which) I have maybe 1500 gold at best. That is if I didn't spend it all on getting the new alchemy ability. Thus the majority of players are NOT in the same boat as you. We have to count on drops or earn enough gold during the event to get a few items. Which could turn people into raging idiots because they now feel they need to grind like a mofo to get them all because there is no word or not that they will be around next year as well for people to get.

Also some are not cosmetics, some are MI that just have that FX. So you can get "better" options with them if you are lucky.



And that right there tells me you are hooked into that style. Because back in the day games didn't have to have some feeling of "progression" because the progression was your ability to get better at your skills at playing the game. And that was the amazing factor to the game. There was depth to games that is harder to find now as they add more bells and whistles with little depth. There is nothing wrong with the fact you may not have experienced the older games and what they offered. It's not your fault that the industry has changed to the point it is today. The idea of "progression" is partly around because of the whole pokemon issue that popped up and a mix of RPGs getting hyrbided into FPS games as well. The two combined give us games like Nosgoth today (not a horrible thing mind you). But the idea of "progression" in terms of grinding some aspect of the game is still a new thing for FPS games in general. It was maybe 10/12 years ago when RPG elements started getting put into FPS games and it has slowly come to the point it is now.



What I was getting at is that a lot of games have two major aspects to them now, partly due to the f2p system as well. One is that Pokemon showed the gaming industry there is a market in having a TON of things that take a while to get and people will still pay for it. And the second is the rise of RPG elements to FPS games as well.

So now FPS games are not coming out with full content unlocked at the start. Old examples would be Unreal Tourny and Quake.. where you just picked up the weapon you wanted in the game where it spawned. Everyone had access to it right from the start and it was balanced because of this. But since games like BF and CoD have seriously taken control of a HUGE market of FPS games.. RPG elements such as grinding levels came into play. And to make you feel like there is a "reason" to do this, they give you unlocks to items in the game as you progress. Thus you get some feeling of accomplishment for doing something you didn't want to do to begin with back in the day.

Slowly over time this has become the standard, which to me.. I find highly annoying. But that is because I am a bit old =p This had nothing to do with the fact this is a beta or new FX items have come out. That is part of what the f2p environment brings with it, as it is just the byproduct of what marketing has shown thanks to games like Pokemon.

And opps.. yeah engagement ring not wedding band =p
OK i misunderstood, sorry, i was also around in those days (when guns were spawned on the map) im not sure which i prefer, maybe a combo of the things

PencileyePirate
28th Oct 2014, 20:37
Slowly over time this has become the standard, which to me.. I find highly annoying. But that is because I am a bit old =p This had nothing to do with the fact this is a beta or new FX items have come out. That is part of what the f2p environment brings with it, as it is just the byproduct of what marketing has shown thanks to games like Pokemon.

I also come from arena FPS, but I think you're holding onto a "the old way is the best way" mentality. Things have changed. F2P games are given away for free and the companies behind them of course need to recuperate the costs (and hopefully generate a profit.) Taking issue with the payment model in a game where all equips can be unlocked for free seems unreasonable.

In addition UT4 is playable pre-alpha and there are other interesting arena shooter revival attempts in progress (Wickland, Toxikk, Reflex.) If leveling to acquire content is really such a big deal then one of these will be better suited to your tastes.

Illusa
29th Oct 2014, 01:57
I also come from arena FPS, but I think you're holding onto a "the old way is the best way" mentality. Things have changed. F2P games are given away for free and the companies behind them of course need to recuperate the costs (and hopefully generate a profit.) Taking issue with the payment model in a game where all equips can be unlocked for free seems unreasonable.

In addition UT4 is playable pre-alpha and there are other interesting arena shooter revival attempts in progress (Wickland, Toxikk, Reflex.) If leveling to acquire content is really such a big deal then one of these will be better suited to your tastes.

I actually am not a fan of the f2p model. Well.. let me put it this way. It is very hard to do f2p correctly in my mind. I think a few games have it down hard, a handful are close and most are just missing the point someplace or all over the place. I put nosgoth in the "close" category personally. Games that really have it down are TF2 and Marvel's Heroes as examples of that type. And for horrible options well.. I won't bad mouth any games. But we all know some that are P2W failures.

I am not totally sold on "Everything oldschool was better" mentality, a lot of it was really good. But I also think there are some really good aspects that have come about because of the changes over time as well. But in general people keep screwing it up in some manor that no one has seriously nailed it in a long time.

Some good things that have come about from RPG and Pokemon gradual change over gaming - Diversity, continued support for the game in terms of add-ons/in game items (cosmetics) and horizontal progression (if any progression, this is the better).

Some good things about oldschool - Everyone on equal grounds at the start (no grinding), priority on game play depth (easy to use hard to master) and skill alone is what separated the goods from the bads.

So if I can somehow find a game that combines all those in a great way, I'm sold on it. So yeah, I am following Toxikk because out of all the of the ones coming down the pipe, it seems to have the most potential in my mind. But I don't expect it to change the social structure of the current gaming life.. that is FPS games are just not popular anymore partly because there is no money in it. And Esports is the next big thing and I don't give it long before you see it go to the Olympics as an option for countries to field for teams.

OnlyLogic
29th Oct 2014, 04:08
I honestly and sincerely feel sorry for the developers. But let me get the bad stuff out of the way first.

With a game that has so few systems in place that have already been advertised to be included in the game in the future (warbands, private servers; now a thing, but I have a point, eSports compatibility, etc), priority should be placed on those things. When things come out that HAVEN'T been advertised, such as execution and events, this shows that either the team can't work on their priorities or that they have no real direction for the game. That or they're bad programmers, but I highly doubt that.

Having said that, it is really hard working on a game of this scale in a team that's (arguably) as small as psyonix. One of the best things you can do for your game is to test early. No matter how juvenile your game might be, it is never too early for tests. Extra Credits mentions this in many of their videos. This is exactly what Psyonix has done, and good on them! They've given us a game probably much earlier than many other studios would've done (although that's changing quite a lot these days). We need to respect their work and continue pointing out the errors we come into.

However, you guys really need to devote more resources into adding the things you've already claimed to be adding and fixing the game, rather than adding new content, because every programmer knows the moment you add something new, there's going to be bugs.

Illusa
29th Oct 2014, 14:28
I honestly and sincerely feel sorry for the developers. But let me get the bad stuff out of the way first.

With a game that has so few systems in place that have already been advertised to be included in the game in the future (warbands, private servers; now a thing, but I have a point, eSports compatibility, etc), priority should be placed on those things. When things come out that HAVEN'T been advertised, such as execution and events, this shows that either the team can't work on their priorities or that they have no real direction for the game. That or they're bad programmers, but I highly doubt that.

Having said that, it is really hard working on a game of this scale in a team that's (arguably) as small as psyonix. One of the best things you can do for your game is to test early. No matter how juvenile your game might be, it is never too early for tests. Extra Credits mentions this in many of their videos. This is exactly what Psyonix has done, and good on them! They've given us a game probably much earlier than many other studios would've done (although that's changing quite a lot these days). We need to respect their work and continue pointing out the errors we come into.

However, you guys really need to devote more resources into adding the things you've already claimed to be adding and fixing the game, rather than adding new content, because every programmer knows the moment you add something new, there's going to be bugs.

We don't know how much is in prep for the Open Beta launch this winter. I wouldn't be surprised if their main priorities is tuning up for that at this point and less complex issues (such as maybe FX on items and M.I. in general) are being done to keep updates flowing at least.

I would expect bigger updates to hit at the time of or later after Open Beta launches personally. That is when they will have their next big influx of players after all.

mauvo58
29th Oct 2014, 18:28
Having taken part in the event, I'd really like to get one of the rewards, just one, I don't need them all. :-) But my gold earning rate is about 150 per hour. Between matchmaking and crashes saving up takes a long time... And at this point that hard won gold might be better spent on a perk. So it's quite frustrating.

Cristari
29th Oct 2014, 22:38
Having taken part in the event, I'd really like to get one of the rewards, just one, I don't need them all. :-) But my gold earning rate is about 150 per hour. Between matchmaking and crashes saving up takes a long time... And at this point that hard won gold might be better spent on a perk. So it's quite frustrating.

Unless you have bought everything already buying the Devils Night Equipment/Weapons is useless since you will never get to use them as the Uncommon and rare items will be far more useful to you. Save your Gold for something far better.

mauvo58
29th Oct 2014, 23:14
Unless you have bought everything already buying the Devils Night Equipment/Weapons is useless since you will never get to use them as the Uncommon and rare items will be far more useful to you. Save your Gold for something far better.

Agreed. The conclusion then is that this event is not for players in my position, which is kinda sad.