PDA

View Full Version : Is Nogoth atmoshpere too dark ?



Anterv
4th Oct 2015, 20:03
Hey.

I was wondering why game just does not feel so comfortable to play it for long time, and especially hold new players. Developers are fair, gameplay model seems to be fun, challenging and enjoyable.

Hovewer, I came to the thought that Nosgoth is simply too dark and atmoshoperically uncomfortable for a multiplayer game, which requires large playerbase to function properlly. Maps and skins seems to look monotonic due to narrow colour gamma, plus after combining that with horrific soundtrack, it seems the game aims for very specific audience.

Is it me, or there are others who think the same ? Could game become more popular, if it would feel "softer" ?

Thanks

GrayPhilosophy
4th Oct 2015, 21:08
I don't want to come across as negative, but please no. One of the cooler things Nosgoth has going for it at the moment is that it's dark atmosphere is actually sort of reminiscent to the original LoK. Take that away and I feel like it'd just be one step further away from what the game seems to try and achieve.

Ygdrasel
4th Oct 2015, 21:45
The soundtrack could use work but not because it's "dark", because it's barely there. Honestly, I don't even notice the music and that's bad. But the dark atmosphere needs to stay. Uncomfortable? Good. It's an uncomfortable world. The idea that discomfort is an inherent negative is a wrong idea.

-Shiro-
4th Oct 2015, 23:14
Gameplay is repetitive, as it's a multiplayer competitive game, but the universe and athmosphere are what is holding me into the game. In my opinion, the game isn't dark enough, sometimes : skins are great (except maybe some main ones), but color patterns aren't always very... vampiric and dark. Strangely, I really like the hammerhead husk (sentinel) though.

The music, especially the main menu theme, is just perfect.

This is not Team Fortress, this is not LoL or Dota. This is Nosgoth.
I don't think the universe is what keep players away from the game, but on the contrary what's attracting them.
Balance issues (MM system) and weird commercial tactics are another story...

PS : anyway, isn't the game designed for mature audience ?

Heretic_13
5th Oct 2015, 07:27
I`m sorry. WUT?! http://imgur.com/uLigyFu
No offence. Music- menu theme is perfect. Rest? Not so happy about them, almost didn`t hear them and if i hear them, they don`t impress me. More dark, more evil please. Gameplay could use some new mechanics- for example kneeling, or simple cover system, some simple commands for coordination- would be interesting i think, but thats about it
And if you ask me "Nosgoth" is TOO colourful, to lively for my taste. Too much bright colours. Its a world torn by war, and cataclysmic events. Everything is rolling over and dying, or tyring to fight befor it`ll die. Please play "Soul Reaver" 1999 game. It`s world where no one is good. Only bad and worse, it`s dark and makes you skni crawl from time to time. Nosgoth should have more gothic architecture, less light, more fog. Like on the cementary infested with ghouls :)
I understeand why you think it would attract more players, but should it be less "dark", new players would got bored after some time- after all there is lots of other mulitplayer FPS games, with machineguns, tanks, cars and aeroplanes(yuck!), and old-timers like me would go away because it wouldn`t have this Legacy of Kain feeling

Ygdrasel
5th Oct 2015, 07:58
I`m sorry. WUT?! http://imgur.com/uLigyFu
No offence. Music- menu theme is perfect. Rest? Not so happy about them, almost didn`t hear them and if i hear them, they don`t impress me. More dark, more evil please. Gameplay could use some new mechanics- for example kneeling, or simple cover system, some simple commands for coordination- would be interesting i think, but thats about it
And if you ask me "Nosgoth" is TOO colourful, to lively for my taste. Too much bright colours. Its a world torn by war, and cataclysmic events. Everything is rolling over and dying, or tyring to fight befor it`ll die. Please play "Soul Reaver" 1999 game. It`s world where no one is good. Only bad and worse, it`s dark and makes you skni crawl from time to time. Nosgoth should have more gothic architecture, less light, more fog. Like on the cementary infested with ghouls :)
I understeand why you think it would attract more players, but should it be less "dark", new players would got bored after some time- after all there is lots of other mulitplayer FPS games, with machineguns, tanks, cars and aeroplanes(yuck!), and old-timers like me would go away because it wouldn`t have this Legacy of Kain feeling

On the architecture note, Nosgoth seems to take a Blood Omen approach. Just kinda generic squarish buildings. Bland for my taste but I get it, what with the climbing...

Heretic_13
5th Oct 2015, 10:52
Yeah i know. I`m just ranting...

GenocidePete
5th Oct 2015, 12:17
The comments about the music are surprising. Though Crucible's music is certainly a bit dull because its more interesting elements are rarely heard for whatever reason, the Provance track is simply amazing. Valeholm has fairly good music as well.

As for "too dark and atmospherically uncomfortable," I only really felt that way about The Fane and Crucible. These maps are just bad in most respects.

RainaAudron
5th Oct 2015, 12:59
Is it me, or there are others who think the same ? Could game become more popular, if it would feel "softer" ?

I am not really sure what do you mean. Softer as in which way? It is a mature game about vampires killing humans and vice versa, it should be dark and bloody in every regard.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2015, 14:18
It's not dark enough! :)

CountEyokir
5th Oct 2015, 14:56
Nosgoth was already on shaky ground by being made for the LoK universe and not being an SP game and you want it even LESS like the source material? The thing isn't dark enough! There are bright colours and elaborate detail and glowy effects worthy of World of Warcraft all over the place. Let me show you exactly what universe this is set in.

http://obsoletegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Blood-Omen-Legacy-of-Kain-ps-1-gameplay-screenshot-5.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z_1U-wVU488/maxresdefault.jpg

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr167/mappster71/skinrb051.jpg

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2015, 15:21
The wraith blades, the demons, the sarafan uniforms/banners, the murals and the spells the humans used were all bright colours. The darkest things about this series are the story and the violence and suffering and the hopelessness of the situation.

Dark doesn't always mean poorly lit. Soul Reaver 1 had a dark colour palette and that worked pretty well, but this is a war with blood and fire and magic being thrown around everywhere. It's expected for the situation and is still 'dark' in the sense that it's grim and scary.

KaininitePriestess
5th Oct 2015, 16:45
I honestly kind of laughed out loud when I read the title of this thread, because it just shows an obvious lack of awareness of the source material this game is based around, and that always makes me laugh when it surrounds any LoK game, especially Nosgoth.

This game is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, the world and the story and the atmosphere are meant to be disturbing and unpleasant. I absolutely love the world of Nosgoth, it's my favorite game series of all time, but I will forever stand by my declaration that "Nosgoth is the one fantasy world I would never want to visit. Ever." Literally everything is death, destruction, horror, and pain in their world. There is no happiness. The peasant folk may eke out a small existence, but it's never pleasant, and the nobles and the people who are important throughout history live in constant fear and strife and war.

Nosgoth really is supposed to be a horrible, horrible world.

ETA: Though none of this is to laugh at the OP. They obviously aren't aware of the source material, but that's nothing to be ashamed of. We weren't born playing Legacy of Kain, after all. :P We all have to start somewhere. So when I say I laughed, I meant more of in that "Oh you sweet summer child" sort of way and not the "LOLOL YOU IDIOT" sort of way. And you probably would be correct in assuming the game is aiming for a very specific audience. It's most definitely created to appeal to the fans of the old series, while still being able to draw in new fans, which I'm glad to say it has done quite nicely. :D

GenFeelGood
5th Oct 2015, 18:47
If this was any era prior to the fall of the Pillars then I might agree on some level. Having started into the series with Soul Reaver and actually played Blood Omen last, I was taken back in Soul Reaver 2 when exposed to the beautiful and lush landscape of Nosgoth after only seeing the dark, dying version of what Nosgoth is becoming. Compared to what Nosgoth will become by the time of Soul Reaver, this is a paradise.

Heretic_13
6th Oct 2015, 06:57
The wraith blades, the demons, the sarafan uniforms/banners, the murals and the spells the humans used were all bright colours. The darkest things about this series are the story and the violence and suffering and the hopelessness of the situation.

Dark doesn't always mean poorly lit. Soul Reaver 1 had a dark colour palette and that worked pretty well, but this is a war with blood and fire and magic being thrown around everywhere. It's expected for the situation and is still 'dark' in the sense that it's grim and scary.
Yes, they were bright. Even in Soul Reaver when something burned, or exploded- it was bright, but the overall colours gave this dirty, foggy, ancient, and decaying feeling. And thats why it was "Soul Reaver 1" thats is considered number one in the series. I do like other games as well, but in Soul Reaver R2 it`s too colourful, we don`t kill vampires only some stupid undead pupets and hunters- this impaling finisher(my beloved, "sniff") lost it`s meaning. Blood Omen 1 had this really... wonderfull feeling of death and destruction, but it felt uncomplete, Blood Omen 2 was also nice in terms of atmosphere, but "it ain`t Soul Reaver", and "Defiance" went in direction of "Prince of Persia", and while it gave series this fun, fluid combat, the overall feeling was too much fantasy, to less dark fantasy. At least in my opinion
God, what would i give for having original "Soul Reaver"(with cut content included) in a big, open, "Skyrim-like" world with lots of secrets to discover, along with fluid combat with brutal finishers. I dunno why but this impaling that Raziel always pulled is something i cannot get tired of. Had tough day? Go and kill one vampire, all of agresion goes away, and chills run down your spine. I watched "Dead Sun" gameplay at work :P (bored the **** out of me) and i saw this "special souls"- they gave you this litte back stories- something about best fisherman, something about vampire infiltrator. Less colours, more vampires, more of steam punk, and more destruction and death, so it`d give you this Soul Reaver feeling, and i am sold

Ygdrasel
6th Oct 2015, 20:44
in Soul Reaver R2 it`s too colourful

How dare an uncorrupted world be colorful? And you praise Soul Reaver yet here and elsewhere, you talk about changing its level design, character design, mechanics, story... (I gotta say, your whole interest seems to begin and end with "It's dark and bloody!"...I'd honestly suggest you'd prefer Bloodrayne overall as a series.)

And Defiance was nothing like Prince of Persia. Its combat was a sad imitation of Devil May Cry.

But to the topic, if anything, Nosgoth's atmosphere could be darker which is not necessarily a decrease of light. That screenshot of Blood Omen above has some fairly bright colors yet the atmosphere is dark as ever.

Grisamentum
6th Oct 2015, 21:55
it should be dark and bloody in every regard.

Heed this wisdom

Heretic_13
7th Oct 2015, 05:26
How dare an uncorrupted world be colorful? And you praise Soul Reaver yet here and elsewhere, you talk about changing its level design, character design, mechanics, story... (I gotta say, your whole interest seems to begin and end with "It's dark and bloody!"...I'd honestly suggest you'd prefer Bloodrayne overall as a series.)

And Defiance was nothing like Prince of Persia. Its combat was a sad imitation of Devil May Cry.

But to the topic, if anything, Nosgoth's atmosphere could be darker which is not necessarily a decrease of light. That screenshot of Blood Omen above has some fairly bright colors yet the atmosphere is dark as ever.

Oooh, we have a bone to pick, ain`t we :P ? I don`t know how "Soul Reaver 2" should look, and i understeand that creators wanted to show how whooping wonderful Nosgoth was before corruption. But don`t expect me to be happy about it. "Soul Reaver 1" put the bar really high, we had dark atmosphere, lots of interesting vampires, thier evolution and madness, steam punk and gothic mixing together. Sequel didn`t live up to expectation, and thats a simple truth. What do i care for some stupid undead or vampire hunters, when i remember Clans? And this "Terminator" stuff. Going back in time, to relive events of previous game. In "Blood Omen" it had it purpose, but Kain should know better- no good ever comes out of it
I never played "Devil May Cry", but i played "Prince of Persia", and it remided me a lot of "Defiance". Truth to be told- combat in "Prince..." was more enjoyable, but storywise Defiance beat it in first round

Ygdrasel
7th Oct 2015, 19:11
Honestly, something akin to PoP combat would have improved Defiance. It was something of a precursor to the free-flow system created for the Arkham quadrilogy (and borrowed/tweaked for Shadow of Mordor, Assassins' Creed 3, Dead Sun...) which remains among the best combat systems.

cmstache
7th Oct 2015, 20:52
I actually find the game not dark enough. Sometimes is seems a little comic-booky,

lucinvampire
11th Oct 2015, 15:21
I don't think the games too dark.


I actually find the game not dark enough. Sometimes is seems a little comic-booky,

I agree with you on this (though some of the comicy type moments are quite funny).

Heretic_13
13th Oct 2015, 07:25
For me, zum beispiel, the armors and clothes look too "Blod Omen 2" for me. I know, that i said that vampires are vain and that people like variety, but if you look at Kain clan- his generals and himself- aside from this little shoulder cape, they didn`t wear much of the "colorful attire"(they didn`t wear much at all), rather they looked for functionality, something that won`t limit thier movements. So when i see Reaver i think of Faustus, or Sebastian rather than of Dumah and Dumahim from "Soul Reaver 1", and when i see Summoner i think of Marcus rather than Melchiah, or Melchiahim

KaininitePriestess
14th Oct 2015, 00:49
For me, zum beispiel, the armors and clothes look too "Blod Omen 2" for me. I know, that i said that vampires are vain and that people like variety, but if you look at Kain clan- his generals and himself- aside from this little shoulder cape, they didn`t wear much of the "colorful attire"(they didn`t wear much at all), rather they looked for functionality, something that won`t limit thier movements. So when i see Reaver i think of Faustus, or Sebastian rather than of Dumah and Dumahim from "Soul Reaver 1", and when i see Summoner i think of Marcus rather than Melchiah, or Melchiahim

These are all valid observations, and you have to keep in mind that the armour we saw the Lieutenants and Kain wear were in non-battle situations. I always figured the things they wore, with the capes and no chest-armour, were ceremonial rather then functional. They were also the vestments of the Lieutenants and Kain exclusively, as we don't see the underlings wearing anything similar in the time we see them in SR1, except for the consistent shirtlessness. Over time, as they developed thicker skin and didn't need as much protection, it's completely feasible that their styles changed and they began wearing less armour as a way of showing off how unafraid they were to be killed in battle. So the armour we see in Nosgoth would be what they wore before they had achieved that level of strength.

Heretic_13
14th Oct 2015, 06:42
These are all valid observations, and you have to keep in mind that the armour we saw the Lieutenants and Kain wear were in non-battle situations. I always figured the things they wore, with the capes and no chest-armour, were ceremonial rather then functional. They were also the vestments of the Lieutenants and Kain exclusively, as we don't see the underlings wearing anything similar in the time we see them in SR1, except for the consistent shirtlessness. Over time, as they developed thicker skin and didn't need as much protection, it's completely feasible that their styles changed and they began wearing less armour as a way of showing off how unafraid they were to be killed in battle. So the armour we see in Nosgoth would be what they wore before they had achieved that level of strength.

Well i always tought that kings, lords and the like are the ones that must show off, Kain and his sons are no different- look at Clans Sanctuary, it`s cathedral of Arrogance, not only it is seated ON the Pillars, The Balance Pillar is Kains throne. And yet Kain runs around clothed in red shoulder cape(love the thing, dunno why, but it looks so elegant, and still is so simple- you look at the XV-XVI century shoulder capes- they look like something that would get in the way a lot, and like a thing that only pompous moron would wear), metal trousers(would like to get me some), gauntlets and sabatons(though it`s not really sabaton- it dosen`t protect fingers). I don`t think they use any other armour- Kain used to, but as you say, maybe he started to show off how he is not afraid of death. Still, to me wampires armor in "Nosgoth" looks too colourful- only some Turelim and Dumahim looks pretty good and "in place". Zephonim has one or two nice ones- standard one really remind me of good, old Zephonim. Razielim looks to me like halfbreed of angel and xenomorph- and yes, i know why(lore wise) but it dosen`t have to mean that i gotta love it, and Melchiahim is the only one that is realistic... Lots of gold and wierd pieces of cloth sticking in all directions... After all they are women :lol:

Vampmaster
14th Oct 2015, 07:45
These are all valid observations, and you have to keep in mind that the armour we saw the Lieutenants and Kain wear were in non-battle situations. I always figured the things they wore, with the capes and no chest-armour, were ceremonial rather then functional. They were also the vestments of the Lieutenants and Kain exclusively, as we don't see the underlings wearing anything similar in the time we see them in SR1, except for the consistent shirtlessness. Over time, as they developed thicker skin and didn't need as much protection, it's completely feasible that their styles changed and they began wearing less armour as a way of showing off how unafraid they were to be killed in battle. So the armour we see in Nosgoth would be what they wore before they had achieved that level of strength.

We don't see any underlings at all in the intro, so we have no idea what they wore at that period of time, and we only saw the Lieutenants for a couple of minutes in the intro as well. Unless Amy or Daniel or someone has confirmed otherwise, we don't know what rules were in place for attire.

By the time Raziel emerges from the abyss, they've all devolved to the point that they either don't care about clothes or that most clothing is impractical to wear over their mutated bodies.

The Romans and Ancient Greeks etc all wore coloured clothing to look intimidating and stuff. I'm not saying they should wear really bright multicoloured clothing, but the amount in tbe evolved skins seems fine to me,

Heretic_13
14th Oct 2015, 08:57
Yes, thats true. I can only back up my theory by the fact, that in "Blood Omen 1 & 2" Kain had all kind of armors, but since "Soul Reaver" he apparently didn`t care, and ran around only in his trousers.
About colorful attire- personaly i don`t like it, you on the other hand do. It`s matter of personal preference.
Why i am even bringing that up? It`s mostly because i treat "Soul Reaver" as absolute the best of all games in the series- story, atmosphere, and enemies-wise(rest of games has really boring enemies, even if combat itself was vastly improved- that`s why i to this day weep over loss of "Harker"[some trailers is still present at youtube]- how i long to stake some vampires, who cares about renevants and vampire hunters?). And "Soul Reaver" was really dark, foggy, with a lot of dim light- even if something was colourful it still looked bit sad, ancient, or dirty even. Not to mention gothic-styled bulidings and thier interiors. I know that in multiplayer we need more balanced heights, but i would not be offended if some map was located near destroyed Nupraptor Retreat, or in some Necropolis. There is always room for something akin to Human Citadel- and i don`t mean this towns that are already in "Nosgoth", that looks like frontier village. I mean- this heavy industrialized, lighted with gas lanterns, made with brick and steel, having a lot of this enormous pipes and deep moats- look where you expect to smell coal and hot metal
And thats is only my personal preference

Vampmaster
14th Oct 2015, 10:01
Yes, thats true. I can only back up my theory by the fact, that in "Blood Omen 1 & 2" Kain had all kind of armors, but since "Soul Reaver" he apparently didn`t care, and ran around only in his trousers.
About colorful attire- personaly i don`t like it, you on the other hand do. It`s matter of personal preference.
Why i am even bringing that up? It`s mostly because i treat "Soul Reaver" as absolute the best of all games in the series- story, atmosphere, and enemies-wise(rest of games has really boring enemies, even if combat itself was vastly improved- that`s why i to this day weep over loss of "Harker"[some trailers is still present at youtube]- how i long to stake some vampires, who cares about renevants and vampire hunters?). And "Soul Reaver" was really dark, foggy, with a lot of dim light- even if something was colourful it still looked bit sad, ancient, or dirty even. Not to mention gothic-styled bulidings and thier interiors. I know that in multiplayer we need more balanced heights, but i would not be offended if some map was located near destroyed Nupraptor Retreat, or in some Necropolis. There is always room for something akin to Human Citadel- and i don`t mean this towns that are already in "Nosgoth", that looks like frontier village. I mean- this heavy industrialized, lighted with gas lanterns, made with brick and steel, having a lot of this enormous pipes and deep moats- look where you expect to smell coal and hot metal
And thats is only my personal preference

I certainly don't think it needs to be any brighter, but you said yourself there was some colour in SR1. The humans in the citadel wore blue, red and green clothing:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Villagers_(SR1)
The adepts and novatites wore red:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Adepts
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Novitiates

The Turelim had blue/red pants and collars:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Fledgling_Turelim
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Adult_Turelim

The other vampires had colours too, but a lot of it was from their skin. Dumahim fledglings had green skin and adults had bluish skin (maybe from paint) and adult Melchahim had green skin from the rotting.

Anyway, my point is that it had colours even if they weren't bright. With regards to the environment, blue and green game appeared in watery areas, orange/yellow was seen in from fires, red obviously came from blood, purple was from traces of amethyst or something in the Oracle's cave. So it was like the land and buildings were all greys and browns, and they there were shot of colour dotted around the place.

It's actually a bit like the Sin City (comic book and movie series) art style, but not taken to such extremes. So you don't quite get to black and white, but it's still a dull background with and bright colour used as highlighting.

Heretic_13
14th Oct 2015, 12:29
And i do agree. I even said it in some previous post, that there was lots of bright colours in "Soul Reaver". But the great thing about this game is, that you don`t see it, or maybe game atmosphere makes them almost unnoticeable in our minds. You can almost expect dust flying out of your monitor. This heavy feeling of gloom, despair, death and fear is what i`d love to see in "Nosgoth". After all we have war, War, WAR all the time, like in some Limbo. There are no heroes, only monsters and murderers. Only bad and worse. Buildings towering over you, hiding both history, and unknown danger... I`m off to play "Soul Reaver". Need to boost my doom feeling :D

Ygdrasel
15th Oct 2015, 01:19
For me, zum beispiel, the armors and clothes look too "Blod Omen 2" for me. I know, that i said that vampires are vain and that people like variety, but if you look at Kain clan- his generals and himself- aside from this little shoulder cape, they didn`t wear much of the "colorful attire"(they didn`t wear much at all), rather they looked for functionality, something that won`t limit thier movements. So when i see Reaver i think of Faustus, or Sebastian rather than of Dumah and Dumahim from "Soul Reaver 1", and when i see Summoner i think of Marcus rather than Melchiah, or Melchiahim

The Reaver's armor is very much made for functionality. They are in a war.

Overall though, the colors could be brought more into line with Blood Omen or Soul Reaver. There's color but it's more desaturated, with the bright stuff reserved for specific emphasis. Blood in BO is notably vivid, for example.

FearGhoul
15th Oct 2015, 03:55
Actually, the Dumahim in Soul Reaver wear armor. It's really hard to see with the graphics, but if you look close, you'll actually see that they do in fact wear armor. Also about armor and Kain and his sons, Cabuco mentioned that their bare chests and such was to show their arrogance. Kain at least has skin that looks like armor itself, and his sons are pretty much god-like themselves at the point when we see them, and likely have very tough skin.
And I really agree about how disappointing Soul Reaver 2 was. After playing Soul Reaver, which was a huge world filled with secrets and enemies that worked more like puzzles, we get this small world where you feel like you're running down corridors and all you have to do it beat enemies to death. It was especially disappointing after reading all the stuff they had planned for it while I was waiting for the game to come out. Over half the game seemed have been cut. Soul Reaver just worked in every way. Sometimes we just get these great games that the makers can't seem to reproduce the feeling of with their sequels. I'm a big Metal Gear fan, but really, Metal Gear Solid (the third game in the series actually) just did everything right, and unfortunately, the sequels couldn't really reproduce that same feeling.
I think that the colors and such in Soul Reaver 2 were fine. I thought it looked awesome actually, and the story, music and voice acting were all great, but my issue is with the gameplay itself, which I really thought was lacking. Except for the Forge puzzles. Those were some of the best puzzles I've seen in a game.

Ygdrasel
15th Oct 2015, 05:06
Actually, the Dumahim in Soul Reaver wear armor. It's really hard to see with the graphics, but if you look close, you'll actually see that they do in fact wear armor. Also about armor and Kain and his sons, Cabuco mentioned that their bare chests and such was to show their arrogance. Kain at least has skin that looks like armor itself, and his sons are pretty much god-like themselves at the point when we see them, and likely have very tough skin.
And I really agree about how disappointing Soul Reaver 2 was. After playing Soul Reaver, which was a huge world filled with secrets and enemies that worked more like puzzles, we get this small world where you feel like you're running down corridors and all you have to do it beat enemies to death. It was especially disappointing after reading all the stuff they had planned for it while I was waiting for the game to come out. Over half the game seemed have been cut. Soul Reaver 2 just worked in every way. Sometimes we just get these great games that the makers can't seem to reproduce the feeling of with their sequels. I'm a big Metal Gear fan, but really, Metal Gear Solid (the third game in the series actually) just did everything right, and unfortunately, the sequels couldn't really reproduce that same feeling.
I think that the colors and such in Soul Reaver 2 were fine. I thought it looked awesome actually, and the story, music and voice acting were all great, but my issue is with the gameplay itself, which I really thought was lacking. Except for the Forge puzzles. Those were some of the best puzzles I've seen in a game.

Yeah, the Dreamcast version has better graphics in that regard. The armor is fairly well visible on those models:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_7ogvwrn4aw/UubJgyZUeMI/AAAAAAAAE5g/3pGj1GXPKSc/s399/Dumahim-sm.PNG

In Soul Reaver 1, all you have to do is beat enemies to death, then impale them. Not really a huge difference there, one single repeated finisher step. Bosses notwithstanding. The gameplay has frankly never been all that astounding but it's done what it's needed to do each time. Looking back, it seems like they just kept the basics alike then gave each game one detail to excel with - Soul Reaver had the best bosses, SR2 had the best puzzles, BO2 had cool kill animations...Defiance, I dunno.

Not surprising to hear SR2 had content cut. Pretty sure every single game in this series had large swathes of material thrown out for budget, time and/or technological constraints. Speaks to the ambition of it all, really. You'd think it'd be a fine time for a revival. Anything that would have had to be thrown out then for deadlines could be patched in post-release now.

Heretic_13
15th Oct 2015, 06:37
When i was talking about no armor- i meant most vampires. And in Dumahim case we don`t know if it`s thier armor, thick skin, or something in between
Skin on vampires- again, most vampires- in Soul Reaver era is not "thick" or "hard". It`s thier regeneration ability that make them so annoying and hard to kill- hunter can beat the hell out of vampire with his crossbow bayonet till the end days(the cannot impale for some reason) i once saw bug, when hunter spawn from thin air, on some old computer(had few of enemies dropping on my head through out the game), behind Turelim, started bayonetting him right away. Not to mention all kind of possible encounters in Necropolis and in Silenced Cathedral. But i digres, sorry
When it came to gameplay- all Legacy of Kain games had thier big-"little" quirks. What i can remember form the top of my head: In "Soul Reaver 1 & 2" you basically have to run around and beat everybody. Well in all games you`d do that :D . If you ask me- no boss battle is realy scary and they don`t have this feeling of danger you get in other games- after all, you are immortal- even more so when you meet 6 main Sarafan armed with Reaver. Thats why i don`t like this in game. Should there be some decisive ending- even if afterwards you`d just load up a save- you`d feel some rush, some adrenaline.
"Blood Omen" had some pretty clunky animation, but it`s old, so it`s completly normal, and if i remember correctly(i played it last time sooo long ago) there was no blocking.
"Blood Omen 2" have some pretty good fight- should you set blocking on "skilled"- but breaking weapons... basically taking one in hand is a waste of time- you`d end up fighting Sarafan Berserk or Glyph Knight, and he`d break your weapon in two, or three attack waves. So instead picking your favourite, you just dumping every single one after it`s becoming fragile. Not to mention this stupid mechanic- when you are in mist form it`s perfectly natural to attack guys from behind, but in face-to-face, when guy lands on his back you just have to wait until he gets back up again. Kain isn`t the most honorable person in the world, but he won`t even kick this idiot
And aside "Soul Reaver 1" in rest of the stories there is no horror basically. I admit, when i first played "Soul Reaver 1" i did jum several times. But in the rest of the games? Never
As for the content cut... Legacy of Kain is one of world leaders in cancelling games- if i remember correctly there was 10 FREAKIN` games cancelled: "Pillars of Nosgoth", "Blood Omen Enchanced", "Sirens", "Kain II(a), Kain II(b)- year leater, the same game axe twice..., "Shifter", "Soul Reaver 2" for PS1/Dremacast, "Chakan II", "Legacy of Kain: Dark Prophecy"- the game we all are still waiting for, conclusion of the story..., and of course much disputed "Dead Sun"- game that could be great SPIN-OFF, but there is too much grief about not ending original story, use of profanities(who cares? Kain and Raziel didn`t but what about rest of the world) and fact "that ain`t Kain"...
So, cutting content, destroying, or fracturing story? Easy peasy my friend
Aha, about Reaver armor... What is great, or functional about armor sporting bare chest? You know which i hace in mind

Ygdrasel
15th Oct 2015, 08:32
When i was talking about no armor- i meant most vampires. And in Dumahim case we don`t know if it`s thier armor, thick skin, or something in between
Skin on vampires- again, most vampires- in Soul Reaver era is not "thick" or "hard". It`s thier regeneration ability that make them so annoying and hard to kill- hunter can beat the hell out of vampire with his crossbow bayonet till the end days(the cannot impale for some reason) i once saw bug, when hunter spawn from thin air, on some old computer(had few of enemies dropping on my head through out the game), behind Turelim, started bayonetting him right away. Not to mention all kind of possible encounters in Necropolis and in Silenced Cathedral. But i digres, sorry
When it came to gameplay- all Legacy of Kain games had thier big-"little" quirks. What i can remember form the top of my head: In "Soul Reaver 1 & 2" you basically have to run around and beat everybody. Well in all games you`d do that :D . If you ask me- no boss battle is realy scary and they don`t have this feeling of danger you get in other games- after all, you are immortal- even more so when you meet 6 main Sarafan armed with Reaver. Thats why i don`t like this in game. Should there be some decisive ending- even if afterwards you`d just load up a save- you`d feel some rush, some adrenaline.
"Blood Omen" had some pretty clunky animation, but it`s old, so it`s completly normal, and if i remember correctly(i played it last time sooo long ago) there was no blocking.
"Blood Omen 2" have some pretty good fight- should you set blocking on "skilled"- but breaking weapons... basically taking one in hand is a waste of time- you`d end up fighting Sarafan Berserk or Glyph Knight, and he`d break your weapon in two, or three attack waves. So instead picking your favourite, you just dumping every single one after it`s becoming fragile. Not to mention this stupid mechanic- when you are in mist form it`s perfectly natural to attack guys from behind, but in face-to-face, when guy lands on his back you just have to wait until he gets back up again. Kain isn`t the most honorable person in the world, but he won`t even kick this idiot
And aside "Soul Reaver 1" in rest of the stories there is no horror basically. I admit, when i first played "Soul Reaver 1" i did jum several times. But in the rest of the games? Never
As for the content cut... Legacy of Kain is one of world leaders in cancelling games- if i remember correctly there was 10 FREAKIN` games cancelled: "Pillars of Nosgoth", "Blood Omen Enchanced", "Sirens", "Kain II(a), Kain II(b)- year leater, the same game axe twice..., "Shifter", "Soul Reaver 2" for PS1/Dremacast, "Chakan II", "Legacy of Kain: Dark Prophecy"- the game we all are still waiting for, conclusion of the story..., and of course much disputed "Dead Sun"- game that could be great SPIN-OFF, but there is too much grief about not ending original story, use of profanities(who cares? Kain and Raziel didn`t but what about rest of the world) and fact "that ain`t Kain"...
So, cutting content, destroying, or fracturing story? Easy peasy my friend
Aha, about Reaver armor... What is great, or functional about armor sporting bare chest? You know which i hace in mind


We do know that, actually. The Dumahim's armor has merged with their thickened skin in the course of their devolution. You can also see a club fused with the arm there. The only reason SR-era Dumahim still have armor is because it's become a literal part of them but all the vamps would have worn it in the empire's heyday for vanity, status, or terrorism (intimidating or frightening the enemy). The LoK vampires aren't Lestat prowling the streets in fancy French velvets and coiffed wigs but they aren't Count Orlok scurrying naked in the dirt either.

Being thrown back to the EG's chamber in SR1 was equivalent to having to reload. Just as frustrating, but less artificial and thus more immersive. I do dislike SR2's last battles with the Reaver though. Any boss battle that grants effective immortality is just lame. Loved it all storywise though, and relished killing each one a second time.~

Blood Omen I first played on Playstation. Absolute garbage. Played the PC version recently and it was vastly inferior. Far less clunky. Still aged though.

The notion that weapon breakage makes weapons a waste of time is nonsense. That's like saying making money is a waste because it will eventually be gone. In the time before it breaks, weapons provide power and range that claws lack. Its basic melee combat was flawed but then, none of the games have a kick button.

None of the games are horror. I mean, Raziel's brothers are nightmares to behold but I certainly never jumped from horror. Mind, I did jump quite a bit having Dumah run up on me after my timing with the incinerator failed, or seeing Melchiah phase back in to swipe at me. But that's tension, not horror...Where was the horror? I'm actually curious.

To be fair, Pillars of Nosgoth was for all we know just Blood Omen with a blander title. Sirens was entirely unrelated to the series (though its art style informed BO2 later on). Shifter became Soul Reaver, not cancelled but retooled. Chakan II was unrelated but like Sirens had aspects assimilated later (Frankly, Chakan II deserved cancellation. Chakan is awful). And SR2 for PS1/Dreamcast is less "cancelled" and more "reworked for use with better technology".


As for Dead Sun...It abandoned the entire story, blatantly ripped off iconic bits from earlier games in a crap attempt at replacing real effort with nostalgia thrills, lazily rehashed Raziel's character because they couldn't put in the effort to think of a new one, utterly botched the iconic shifting mechanic...Etcetera. I didn't mind the profanity - in strict moderation. The gameplay looked decent (some slight flaws). Combat and parkour elements looked plain badass. But everything story or lore or continuity based was half-assed and lazy. Also the devs were operating based on incorrect series notes (written by a player, not an old developer) and actively disparaged the series and its fans so...Yeah. I was really into Dead Sun at first too but the more I looked into it, the more it fell apart. Honestly, it could have been great if it'd been made by people who cared...But it was made by Climax instead.

Destroying or fracturing the story is an awful idea. Not sure what your "Easy peasy my friend" is meant to suggest here.

And all of the Reaver armors cover the chest. The default does expose the pecs but so what? Nothing vital is unprotected and even if it did expose something important, every other part remains functional. So...Yeah, Reaver armor, functional.

Bazielim
15th Oct 2015, 11:47
if i remember correctly there was 10 games cancelled: "Pillars of Nosgoth", "Blood Omen Enchanced", "Sirens", "Kain II(a), Kain II(b)- year leater, the same game axe twice..., "Shifter", "Soul Reaver 2" for PS1/Dremacast, "Chakan II", "Legacy of Kain: Dark Prophecy"- the game we all are still waiting for, conclusion of the story..., and of course much disputed "Dead Sun"-
You recall the somewhat attention grabbing title of the article correctly but perhaps not the content.. although lots of people have made that mistake before.

So those games in order:
Precursor (became BO1), port, unrelated/disputed precursor (nothing concrete to say and essentially just 'Steve Ross style' - if it was related it became BO2), cancelled a, cancelled b (you can only have one of those because they were competing proposals created at the same time that seemed to be copying each other to a certain extent, hence the massive legal mess around 1998), precursor (became SR1), port, unrelated/disputed precursor (nothing concrete to say and essentially just 'Steve Ross style' - if it was related it became BO2), cancelled, cancelled.

So essentially you can have 3 cancelled games (or four depending upon how you count the Kain II'S) the rest we got in some form or another.

Heretic_13
15th Oct 2015, 12:28
So essentially you can have 3 cancelled games (or four depending upon how you count the Kain II'S) the rest we got in some form or another.

Maybe, maybe not. I don`t really care. I just mentioned this as a example that developers had really "wonderful" time making this series- and how thier creative voices were "appreciated". Should "Soul Reacer" be what it could become- maybe it`d be game of the year, and have bigger cult following it even today. I don`t know if you can imagine it, but our little vampire story has 16 years already. In game world it is equivalent of stone hammer compared to finest jackhammer(today games)
But is still does the job, and it`s still played across the world. And that means something. Imagine now what it would be, or even the whole series of games coming out of it, should they succed even more. Will see :) "Soul Revnenant" our last hope

As for reaver armor that has this gap in the chest- either wear armor that protect, and it is more than weight, or don`t(like Tyrant).
Ygdrasel siad it still protects... Its true. But i gonna start crying in about a minute anyway. Vampires need to fear only few types of wounds: acid/water burns, fire burns- they won`t regenerate by themselves, decapitation, and attacking heart. So if i put on armor, that cover the chest, i`ll make sure it covers entire chest. Otherwise it`s like running around with huge sing "hit me here". Of course it still can be interpreted as thier bravado.
But i know where lies the root of this. In movies we often have main hero run around without a helmet, so we can see how "awesome" he/she is fighting whole battle without protection... Not to mention, that any enemy will purposefuly miss, or hit at hero armor(but the same rule do not apply to them- see how Aragorn and co. hit Uruk-Hai all over armor, with swords, and arrows, and poor orc cannot even use thier shields properly) Should Calns face real Sarafan(first order), would be wiped out with ease

Ygdrasel
16th Oct 2015, 02:28
Should Calns face real Sarafan(first order), would be wiped out with ease

Well, that might be true regardless. An army raised up basically from angry peasant mobs waged a 99.9% successful genocide against the vampires so I doubt any armor, however designed, would truly matter much.

Heretic_13
16th Oct 2015, 06:51
Sarafan weren`t pesants, only knights. Or i don`t understeand you?

Bazielim
16th Oct 2015, 11:22
I think Ygdrasel is referring to Moebius's People's Army (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Moebius's_mercenary_army), who were a bunch of peasants with rag-tag appearance but still managed to be the most successful vampire hunting group in Nosgoth's history.

FearGhoul
17th Oct 2015, 04:40
Thanks for quoting me there, Ygdrasel, since I noticed an idiotic typo I made. I meant to say "Soul Reaver just worked in every way", not Soul Reaver 2. People might have been confused by my comment since I also put down Soul Reaver 2 overall in that post.
People in movies, TV, and such not wearing helmets isn't really to show how cool they are, it's because they're important people, so they get shown off. Generally, actors like being seen as well, rather than being hid, so they do this with characters, except for certain story reasons of course (like Eowyn in the Lord of the Rings books, which they totally screwed up in the movies, but those movies were still better than the horrid Hobbit abominations).
And I really have to disagree about Blood Omen being "garbage". Yes, the loading times are absolutely terrible and still stand as the worst loading times in history as far as I'm concerned (worse even than MGS4's installations. At least it only lasted a while and then there were none for the rest of the act! ... I've got plenty of complaints about that game too), but I think it was a really fun, super violent Zelda style game. I mean, my only real complaint about that game is the loading times. Other than that, I think we got a fun adventure game with an awesome story, amazing voice acting for the time (and that I say stands the test of time), and lots of cool secrets. I'm far from a blind fan boy who denies the faults in this series, but I think that Blood Omen is still a good game, and I put it second in the series behind Soul Reaver.

Heretic_13
19th Oct 2015, 07:37
Story and climate wise all LOK games put thier competition to shame- even SR2 and BO2 that weren`t that great. But gameplay is still a issue
Thing is, we are willing to overlook it :), because of amazing climate and deep voices of actors that make us shake :P i`d love to have voice like Simon Templeman- instead, even though relatievly in the middle of male scale, more toward lower voice- my whisper can be heard in other room, through locked doors. And i can shout like Dragonborn- even my ears bleed afterwards. That makes me similar to LOK Vampires XD

Ygdrasel
20th Oct 2015, 20:05
Thanks for quoting me there, Ygdrasel, since I noticed an idiotic typo I made. I meant to say "Soul Reaver just worked in every way", not Soul Reaver 2. People might have been confused by my comment since I also put down Soul Reaver 2 overall in that post.
People in movies, TV, and such not wearing helmets isn't really to show how cool they are, it's because they're important people, so they get shown off. Generally, actors like being seen as well, rather than being hid, so they do this with characters, except for certain story reasons of course (like Eowyn in the Lord of the Rings books, which they totally screwed up in the movies, but those movies were still better than the horrid Hobbit abominations).
And I really have to disagree about Blood Omen being "garbage". Yes, the loading times are absolutely terrible and still stand as the worst loading times in history as far as I'm concerned (worse even than MGS4's installations. At least it only lasted a while and then there were none for the rest of the act! ... I've got plenty of complaints about that game too), but I think it was a really fun, super violent Zelda style game. I mean, my only real complaint about that game is the loading times. Other than that, I think we got a fun adventure game with an awesome story, amazing voice acting for the time (and that I say stands the test of time), and lots of cool secrets. I'm far from a blind fan boy who denies the faults in this series, but I think that Blood Omen is still a good game, and I put it second in the series behind Soul Reaver.

Ah, I made a typo myself in regard to Blood Omen. The PS version is garbage but the PC version is vastly superior. It's a great game. It just becomes a crap game when played on Playstation. Loading times were atrocious, overall movement was slow and clunky, combat was tedious...PC improved all of that. So it's not the game, but the game on that particular platform. (Similar to how Saints Row 2 is irredeemable trash on PC, but one of my favorite games on console.)

@Bazielim: Correct, I was referring to Moebius' army. :D

Heretic_13
23rd Oct 2015, 07:40
So i understood you correctly Ygdrasel
I thought of a map akin to Necropolis from Defiance. Tone it down colour-wise, add fog, and wierd trees. Bits a pieces of mausoleums. Backstory about it- Melchiahim digged supplies for thier experiments with necromancy over there, and even, from time to time, someone good enough to be one of thier clan to reanimate(backstory thats goes hand in hand with SR1) which is why they didn`t want other clans to know about it. But then humans learned that this old necropolis, full of remains of thier sacred ancestors/former vampire hunters, is desecrated. And they launched full scale attack. Now all vampires from nearby garrsions run over to help. And human hunters sooner die, than let this rotten maggots do as they please with bones and ashes of thier kind
Would that kind of map help?

Vampmaster
23rd Oct 2015, 09:08
So i understood you correctly Ygdrasel
I thought of a map akin to Necropolis from Defiance. Tone it down colour-wise, add fog, and wierd trees. Bits a pieces of mausoleums. Backstory about it- Melchiahim digged supplies for thier experiments with necromancy over there, and even, from time to time, someone good enough to be one of thier clan to reanimate(backstory thats goes hand in hand with SR1) which is why they didn`t want other clans to know about it. But then humans learned that this old necropolis, full of remains of thier sacred ancestors/former vampire hunters, is desecrated. And they launched full scale attack. Now all vampires from nearby garrsions run over to help. And human hunters sooner die, than let this rotten maggots do as they please with bones and ashes of thier kind
Would that kind of map help?

This Necropolis?
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Necropolis
Seems pretty toned down already if you ask me.

I don't remember a Necropolis in Defiance, unless you mean the Cemetery, which had the same soundtrack, but I don't think that was the same location:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Cemetery

Heretic_13
23rd Oct 2015, 10:21
This Necropolis?
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Necropolis
Seems pretty toned down already if you ask me.

I don't remember a Necropolis in Defiance, unless you mean the Cemetery, which had the same soundtrack, but I don't think that was the same location:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Cemetery

Yes, now i am making no sense- I meant cementery in Defiance, and i know it`s not the same as Melchiahim necropolis. I just like sound of the word "Necropolis" ;)

Vampmaster
23rd Oct 2015, 11:22
Yes, now i am making no sense- I meant cementery in Defiance, and i know it`s not the same as Melchiahim necropolis. I just like sound of the word "Necropolis" ;)

As far as having the Melchahim Necropolis in Nosgoth, I believe Eric mentioned that as one he's particularly like to work on, although it might not be his decision.

Heretic_13
27th Oct 2015, 07:28
And some gothic monastery, or mansion where Rahabim would be spawned. But more fog, more smoke, more darkness, more dim, flickering light

CountEyokir
27th Oct 2015, 14:53
If anything I wanna see an environment that'd fit right into Bloodborne and Dark souls more then anything. Darker the better please!!!!

Heretic_13
28th Oct 2015, 07:41
If anything I wanna see an environment that'd fit right into Bloodborne and Dark souls more then anything. Darker the better please!!!!

NO, NO, NOOO!!! Dark Souls, and Bloodborne are different- they have thier own atmosphere, and Legacy of Kain has it`s own unique approach. Don`t mix them

KaininitePriestess
28th Oct 2015, 16:39
NO, NO, NOOO!!! Dark Souls, and Bloodborne are different- they have thier own atmosphere, and Legacy of Kain has it`s own unique approach. Don`t mix them

Gonna have to agree with you in this regard. Bloodborne and Dark Souls are great games and have amazing atmosphere, yes, but they have subtle stylistic and atmospheric differences from Legacy of Kain. They may be similar in some regards, but they're worlds apart when you look at them objectively.

FearGhoul
29th Oct 2015, 04:49
I realize this is off topic, but I just beat Bloodbourne recently. Awesome game, and I think works better than Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, which I've also beaten. I sure hope they continue this series. I can see how someone could see some similarities between that series and Legacy of Kain, but yeah, they are pretty different.

Heretic_13
30th Oct 2015, 07:43
Bottom line: we need more of LoK atmosphere in this game, more dark, more bleak, more foggy, more bloody. When you walk in some map, and see bodies of people killed and hung up, shot, or eviscerated it gives you the right kind of feeling, but it is instanty lost when you some pokemon dressed in bright lights runs by you

KaininitePriestess
30th Oct 2015, 15:18
I don't think the glowy accents of the outfits is really what loses the atmosphere. There have been glowy Tron-line effects in the series since a long time ago.

The general atmosphere of LoK is imitated, but not quite perfectly duplicated with Nosgoth, but I will admit that I think part of it is due to the way the visuals have changed with the much-higher resolution was can get out of games these days and not something that the Devs have done incorrectly. There was a..."muddiness" to the old games that hasn't quite been achieved in Nosgoth that, while not "low-res" for the time, now seems to be partly because of the limitations of the hardware we had back then. Not to say the games aren't gorgeous, they're some of the prettiest games I've ever seen, imho. The muddiness was used well, and they had a lot of gorgeous details even with it, so it just became it's look.

Maybe "foggy" is a better term? idk.

Vampmaster
30th Oct 2015, 15:47
I think the best they could do to fix the Auric skins is change it from an emitted glow, to a reflected metallic shine. People wouldn't be happy if they'd spent money on the skins and had them taken away, so a change like I suggested could be a fair compromise.

Ygdrasel
31st Oct 2015, 19:33
some pokemon dressed in bright lights

...What?

@Kainite: Silent Hill suffered from that too. Once they didn't NEED the murky fog stuff for technical reasons, they scrapped it and kinda killed the atmosphere.

FearGhoul
1st Nov 2015, 06:21
I don't think the glowy accents of the outfits is really what loses the atmosphere. There have been glowy Tron-line effects in the series since a long time ago.



I think I get what you mean. It might be cool if there was a skin with lightning running along the body like Dejoule, though I don't know what class that would fit.

KaininitePriestess
1st Nov 2015, 15:54
...What?

@Kainite: Silent Hill suffered from that too. Once they didn't NEED the murky fog stuff for technical reasons, they scrapped it and kinda killed the atmosphere. yeah, exactly! There's just something about that effect that feels like something is "missing" when it's not their. I don't know why, but it goes such a long way to making things look better and, imho, more realistic! Less like a sterile game interface, even as grungy as the style is.


I think I get what you mean. It might be cool if there was a skin with lightning running along the body like Dejoule, though I don't know what class that would fit. hey, anything to help add more of the lore to the game! ;D I've wanted things that referenced the old games for a long time! Recycled/salvaged/rediscovered Sarafan armour is one of the things I would love! And the Sarafan had some glowies during their time under the Sarafan Lord, and we already know that the Hylden magic is leaching back into Nosgoth in this game!

Heretic_13
3rd Nov 2015, 08:34
yeah, exactly! There's just something about that effect that feels like something is "missing" when it's not their. I don't know why, but it goes such a long way to making things look better and, imho, more realistic! Less like a sterile game interface, even as grungy as the style is.

hey, anything to help add more of the lore to the game! ;D I've wanted things that referenced the old games for a long time! Recycled/salvaged/rediscovered Sarafan armour is one of the things I would love! And the Sarafan had some glowies during their time under the Sarafan Lord, and we already know that the Hylden magic is leaching back into Nosgoth in this game!

True, but thier glowing armour was "spark in the darkness" if you will like more poetic way of putting this :) plainly- they weren`t going super sayan- glow weren`t that bright.
When i said "pokemon"(and thats how i will refere to glowing vampires or hunters) i meant guy clothed in skin bright enough to be spotted from across the map