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View Full Version : Small but necessary Vanguard Tweaks.



PsychoThruster
4th Oct 2015, 14:20
Two things about the vanguard's abilities that make little sense and leave the class at a disadvantage are the way in which their shield bash, and charge abilities functions, and the limited use of bulwark.

The problem with shield bash and charge is that they cannot be used from block without opening a large window of vulnerability. This means that if I am blocking an attacking vampire I cannot move from block to shield bash without taking at least one melee attack at full damage. This is bad design because there is no logical reason for this and it is not made apparent by the animation on screen. By the looks of things on screen, the transition is seamless, and it almost seems as though it was intended that the vanguard can use these abilities from a blocking stance. That window of vulnerability is anachronistic with what is displayed. The thing which makes the vanguard unique is their shield, they are meant to function as a tank. The class should not be punished for relying on that shield defensively and offensively.

Secondly, I find bulwark to be of little use because it cannot prevent abduct or pounce abilities. It is wonderful for stopping a charging tyrant, but when you step back and look at things the charging tyrant is arguably the one thing it shouldn't be able to stop. The tyrants stated role is crowd dispersion, that combined with the massive physicality of that class should make it the only vampire able to physically break through bulwark. The comparatively tiny reaver and sentinel should be blown away by the raging storm. This would make bulwark a better ability, and allow the tyrant to actually fulfill it's intended role. Bulwark should also deflect vampire grenades. It is absurd that it can blow back vampires, but tiny gas and explosive grenades will land right at your feet.

Finally, the vanguard should be able to stop reloading in order to block, it makes zero sense that you cannot do so.

Both of these changes are balanced and will bring the class more in line with it's intended role, as well as make the tyrant more effective at it's designed role.

GrayPhilosophy
4th Oct 2015, 15:06
Wholeheartedly agree. Bulwark seems very limited at the moment. Although it's cool at what it does, I often find myself favouring Rousing Cry because of it's more all-round usefulness.

Firehex
4th Oct 2015, 15:22
It is wonderful for stopping a charging tyrant, but when you step back and look at things the charging tyrant is arguably the one thing it shouldn't be able to stop. The tyrants stated role is crowd dispersion, that combined with the massive physicality of that class should make it the only vampire able to physically break through bulwark. The comparatively tiny reaver and sentinel should be blown away by the raging storm.

This!!! Why giant brute can't pass through it, but weak bird, who depends on air dynamics can ? Sentinel should fall down instantly or push back. Reaver just push back.

Ygdrasel
4th Oct 2015, 22:29
Agreed with the bash-block transition and Bulwark. The reload thing isn't a big issue for me but obviously for others...So yeah, all sounds great.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Oct 2015, 23:00
I personally disagree with most of what OP said...

I think shield bash/charge shouldn't be used after block without any window of vulnerability...it would make vanguard over-powered.
It should be used to anticipate your enemy, imo...

Indeed it doesn't make sense Bulwark stops tyrant charge, and doesn't stop the others...but just so you know, it DOES affect low-speed abduct (i missed because of it once)...
In this case, if Bulwark were to stop everything from coming close, it would be over-powered....it is a good ability, i've been killed because it stuck me to a corner, and it prevents all melee attacks (its basically a 360º shield).

The thing i do agree is that you can't block while reloading...thats just stupid..."herp derp...must reload first, block later"
As an extra, i think they should buff the blocking to stop pounce again...its silly that you get pinned to the ground while blocking a pounce, no?

Ygdrasel
4th Oct 2015, 23:47
I personally disagree with most of what OP said...

I think shield bash/charge shouldn't be used after block without any window of vulnerability...it would make vanguard over-powered.
It should be used to anticipate your enemy, imo...

Indeed it doesn't make sense Bulwark stops tyrant charge, and doesn't stop the others...but just so you know, it DOES affect low-speed abduct (i missed because of it once)...
In this case, if Bulwark were to stop everything from coming close, it would be over-powered....it is a good ability, i've been killed because it stuck me to a corner, and it prevents all melee attacks (its basically a 360º shield).

The thing i do agree is that you can't block while reloading...thats just stupid..."herp derp...must reload first, block later"
As an extra, i think they should buff the blocking to stop pounce again...its silly that you get pinned to the ground while blocking a pounce, no?


The shield should definitely block pounce. Been saying that from day one. Ridiculous to see it can't do so.

And I'd still say Bulwark should interrupt a pounce too or at least lessen the damage. A hulked-out charging Tyrant could barrel through and one imagines the Sentinels to have mastered flight well enough to handle a little wind so they're fine as-is.

As for the invulnerability window, the animation does show it being seamless so either that should be altered or the abilities should. I'd say have any melee dealt during the transition deal less damage. Not a lot less since the shield stays up but is no longer braced for defense but it would make sense.

PsychoThruster
4th Oct 2015, 23:57
The ability to bash from block stance would in no way over-power the vanguard. As it stands now blocking is a joke unless you have teammates on top of things to make use of it. This would at least allow the vanguard to have synergy within it's own abilities. Saying that they should not have this is like saying sentinel should not be allowed to perform a dive attack after using abduct, it's absurd.

Bulwark is useless 90% of the time. It has a few situational uses, but it needs to be able to block pounces and abducts, and deflect grenades so that the tank class can actually tank... And allowing the tyrant to be the only vamp that can physically overcome it allows the tyrant to better fill it's intended role as well. These changes make both classes do their job better.

Ygdrasel
5th Oct 2015, 22:17
Bulwark is useless 90% of the time.

It pushes my attackers away 90% of the time. Bulwark's shot up my damage output with the Vanguard by some thousands by putting extra distance between me and whoever's claws are after me. (I still don't land kills but that's on me for rarely playing Vanguard and forgetting to block when I do...)

And doesn't the shield block explosive damage already? If not, it needs to but bulwark has no need for it. Blocking abducts is just nonsensical. Sentinels know how to fly well amidst even the treacherous mountains of Dark Eden so they wouldn't be derailed by a minor whirlwind. Blocking pounce is something the shield should do by all rights.

I'd say any attack connecting through a Bulwark would have some damage decrease due to the wind derailing the attack or otherwise dampening the impact but outright blocking things is a bit much. It is just wind, after all.

Firehex
5th Oct 2015, 23:01
Bulwark is useless 90% of the time. It has a few situational uses, but it needs to be able to block pounces and abducts, and deflect grenades so that the tank class can actually tank...

That's hillarious. In my eyes VG was most weak human class and this new ability really made me play him, because it's awesome and saved my life/teammates a lot of times.

riccetto80
6th Oct 2015, 22:24
i like this ideas!

what i dont like is the bulkaw be so fast to deploy, maybe need a little time windows before deploy.

Ygdrasel
6th Oct 2015, 22:36
i like this ideas!

what i dont like is the bulkaw be so fast to deploy, maybe need a little time windows before deploy.

Why?

riccetto80
7th Oct 2015, 08:47
because any abilityes have a "activation" period of time, beside this one who activate practically instantly...

will be better to give the vamps a small time frame to realize what is going to happen and try to adapt, is the same for any abilityes

DotAntipro
7th Oct 2015, 10:06
because any abilityes have a "activation" period of time, beside this one who activate practically instantly...

will be better to give the vamps a small time frame to realize what is going to happen and try to adapt, is the same for any abilityes
totally agree, wanna see there activation period at least as for "shadow step" skill.
instant usage just too OP

akr0nym
7th Oct 2015, 11:15
I agree with Firehex, bulwark is good as it is and way better than the other healing skill in that slot. I really like the new opportunities that come with that playstyle. (althoguh i haven't played it much but got killed once because enemy team used it efficiently :D)
I also think it's okay to block charge (and not pounce, abduct...) because thats what the vanguard is made for, he's anti tyrant not anti senti.

Sure it's not logical that he can't whirl away airstrike bomb but I mean a perfectly thrown airstrike should give you a reward. It'd make airstrike useless then.