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Fatereaver
2nd Oct 2015, 20:11
"When you are in range you are able to shoot out, and pull with inhuman strength a human quickly towards your position with a web line."
I imagine this as quick cast, low cooldown alternative to Dominate mind.
Being the spider inspired clan that they are I always felt they lacked a Spider-Man inspired attack. Well that and unlimited directional, and quicker wall crawling than all the other clans. I really itch for this ability to be added.
I think this fits in the fast paced environment of Nosgoth and I want the Deceiver to compete with the Sentinel for abductions. :D

Anyone like this? Have anything to add? Feel free to leave your comments. :o

Vampmaster
2nd Oct 2015, 20:20
I've been wanting that for ages. Or a zip-line for getting close to enemies. Or dragging corpses up walls as a perk.

Fatereaver
2nd Oct 2015, 20:21
Oh yeah, all of those would be awesome! Would be cool to drag humans up walls, both alive and dead ones. :3

IllusiveConman
2nd Oct 2015, 20:26
good thoughts, I like the idea of being able to use these types of abilities on humans, even sticking humans in a cocoon for a bit while munch on their friends.
maybe even as a trap ability i think it would great to have a web ability for deceiver, we've all seen the zephonim's victims in the silenced cathedral and how they are stuck in place with webs, so why not

Fatereaver
2nd Oct 2015, 20:44
Yeah, been playing around with that idea in my mind to. Would be awesome to web up dying humans in cocoons for later feeding on top of rooftops for other vampires, or temporarily incapacitating them while fighting others.

ParadoxicalOmen
3rd Oct 2015, 14:21
It is an interesting idea, but i do feel it is best suited for the devolved Zephonim (Deceiver)...

The fledgling Deceiver still hasn't developed their spider-like traits...perhaps the evolved Deceiver might have, but he is just a skin and not an alternate class :o

Ygdrasel
3rd Oct 2015, 18:44
It is an interesting idea, but i do feel it is best suited for the devolved Zephonim (Deceiver)...

The fledgling Deceiver still hasn't developed their spider-like traits...perhaps the evolved Deceiver might have, but he is just a skin and not an alternate class :o

I'm inclined to agree. As much as I'd love to see more of that spideryness here, it doesn't seem to be in the cards.

Fatereaver
4th Oct 2015, 18:31
Well I see no issue with some Zephonim having evolved the ability use webs as some of them have already evolved infectious venom. The various abilities available to different individuals of each within a clan I think represents different individual "mutations or lesser dark gift strains", for lack of a better word, at least when it comes to biological abilities as other abilities are clearly based on equipment(like the Sentinel bombs and Reaver bombs).

IllusiveConman
4th Oct 2015, 19:28
It is an interesting idea, but i do feel it is best suited for the devolved Zephonim (Deceiver)...

The fledgling Deceiver still hasn't developed their spider-like traits...perhaps the evolved Deceiver might have, but he is just a skin and not an alternate class :o

what is to say they haven't developed those traits yet, their appearance is already in the process of warping into their evolved state, maybe this is when their abilities start to develop

Vampmaster
4th Oct 2015, 19:59
what is to say they haven't developed those traits yet, their appearance is already in the process of warping into their evolved state, maybe this is when their abilities start to develop

I agree. At the beginning, the vampires gained abilities without much change to their appearance, but the more they lost their minds, the less they could control the physical changes. If Rahab can already have his gills in the SR1 intro, surely Zephon and his clan can have a few insect abilities a couple of hundred years afterward.

xNarcissusx
4th Oct 2015, 21:15
Interesting idea. Could also have a "reverse" like shooting web that binds the human to the ground making him immovable for like a few seconds or until attacked. Or trips the human if they are sprinting (as there has been a lot of hate regarding humans being too fast).

Ygdrasel
4th Oct 2015, 22:19
Eh, I just don't want to think of Spider-Man while playing Nosgoth so any shot variation of web is iffy. Maybe he leaps on them and cocoons them up, temporarily trapping them in place before they break free.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Oct 2015, 22:54
Eh, I just don't want to think of Spider-Man while playing Nosgoth so any shot variation of web is iffy. Maybe he leaps on them and cocoons them up, temporarily trapping them in place before they break free.

Lol

@IllusiveConman
Because they are fledglings...that basically means they are newborns, so they shouldn't have spidey powers until they evolve.

Fatereaver
5th Oct 2015, 17:47
Lol

@IllusiveConman
Because they are fledglings...that basically means they are newborns, so they shouldn't have spidey powers until they evolve.

And yet the Razielim have wings fully formed already at their fledgling state. Some Dumahim are running around on all fours.
Turelim are already using telekinesis as they charge. Melchahim are already tapping into the Spectral Realm. All of them, as fledglings. The Zephonim as I said already have access to a spider-like venom. There is ample space insides their arms for the organs and vessels required for spinning webs, all of this being under the skin as it were.


Eh, I just don't want to think of Spider-Man while playing Nosgoth so any shot variation of web is iffy. Maybe he leaps on them and cocoons them up, temporarily trapping them in place before they break free.
The reason I wanted a yanking ability was because I felt a temporary stunlock would infuriate people on the receiving end and I felt it would keep with the spirit of the fast paced game. And I wanted a different alternative to Dominate Mind while keeping with the spider theme.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2015, 18:51
Limiting abilities to specific skins is a bad idea, IMO. People might like the ability, but not the skin and SE have always said the skins should be aesthetic only.

Fatereaver
5th Oct 2015, 19:12
Yeah, I agree with that sentiment.

ParadoxicalOmen
6th Oct 2015, 01:36
And yet the Razielim have wings fully formed already at their fledgling state. Some Dumahim are running around on all fours.

You're quite wrong here, the Razielim aren't at their fledgling state...they are in a deformed state due to blood starvation, but are actually all in their evolved state (the fledglings were all killed). http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7221

I don't get what you mean about the Dumahim...what does them being on fours have to do with anything? Their devolved forms are bipedal...



Turelim are already using telekinesis as they charge. Melchahim are already tapping into the Spectral Realm. All of them, as fledglings. The Zephonim as I said already have access to a spider-like venom. There is ample space insides their arms for the organs and vessels required for spinning webs, all of this being under the skin as it were.


This is a good argument you made. So indeed the Zephonim should already have some of their devolved traits...i personally think this is already portrayed with their "Dominate Mind" ability, as a possible explanation to the human vampire worshipers in the Silenced Cathedral (SR1).

But ok...lets say they have developed webbing. I feel weird about a projectile web shot (especially since the devolved Zephonim used the web to cocoon their victem, and not offensively).

If the Zephonim were to have web powers, i'd think it should be some sort of trap...like an AOE ability that sticks every human in place (or perhaps acts as a debuff that slows all human movement)

Ygdrasel
6th Oct 2015, 02:12
If the Zephonim were to have web powers, i'd think it should be some sort of trap...like an AOE ability that sticks every human in place (or perhaps acts as a debuff that slows all human movement)

Agreed. Though I rarely see slowing effects make any notable difference so I'd go with the stun trap.

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2015, 10:53
But ok...lets say they have developed webbing. I feel weird about a projectile web shot (especially since the devolved Zephonim used the web to cocoon their victem, and not offensively).

I'm sure before they lost their minds, the vampires could be a bit more creative with how they used their abilities. Also the abilities in SR1 were limited by the engine and the development time. I don't think there's any need to come up with lore just to make make excuses for the engine. It's the same thing with the female vampires and skin variation in general. More variation would have been there if the devs were able, so now that the are able, there's no reason the shouldn't. *Except if it contradicts the script* If Raziel had explicitly stated that they had no other abilities, that would have to be adhered to.

Another example is Turel's telekinesis. In SR1, all Turel (cut boss battle) and his clan could do was launch projectiles, but in Defiance, Turel (and Raziel after devouring his soul) could do all kinds of things like grab, hold, throw and restrain.


If the Zephonim were to have web powers, i'd think it should be some sort of trap...like an AOE ability that sticks every human in place (or perhaps acts as a debuff that slows all human movement)

Don't we have plenty of stun abilities already though? The web yank would provide lot of options for creative gameplay.

People might run out of patience if they have to wait and hope for a human to approach the trap, but I suppose of the trap was triggered on approach like the scout's bomb thing, the Deceiver could go and do something else and then get pinged when it goes off (spiders sense vibrations in their webs when there's prey caught in them). It could be some spider nest that explodes and either covers everyone in spiders and sticky goo.

Ygdrasel
6th Oct 2015, 19:53
It could be some spider nest that explodes and either covers everyone in spiders and sticky goo.

Actual spiders seems a bit too literal. Spider silk (for webs and cocooning) does begin as a thick liquid so it could erupt and cover any in range with that stuff. What would the effect be though? Slow would seem the most rational but again I've never really seen slow make a difference so I try to steer toward other possibilities...

Maybe it could jam up the weapon mechanisms, stop them firing (but not using abilities) for a moment or two...Or given that the fluid is quite sticky, it could stop any in the AoE from attacking at all for a given time, sticking their arms but leaving the legs free for sprints and dodges.

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2015, 22:55
Actual spiders seems a bit too literal. Spider silk (for webs and cocooning) does begin as a thick liquid so it could erupt and cover any in range with that stuff. What would the effect be though? Slow would seem the most rational but again I've never really seen slow make a difference so I try to steer toward other possibilities...

Maybe it could jam up the weapon mechanisms, stop them firing (but not using abilities) for a moment or two...Or given that the fluid is quite sticky, it could stop any in the AoE from attacking at all for a given time, sticking their arms but leaving the legs free for sprints and dodges.

They can already summon insects for infect. Arachnids can't be that much more difficult :p, and it makes sense that they'd burst out of it. Maybe it could be like a sort of stretchy/sticky tether. They could move around, but not far from where it went off.

Fatereaver
7th Oct 2015, 12:41
ParadoxicalOmen, I was referring to skins, as you originally argued that the web ability would be best served tied to the Evolved skin, where as Vampmaster and I argued against tying the ability to a skin, and I then proceeded to point out that the so called fledglings already had access to abilities associated with their evolved clan members as the ones we have access to are referred to as fledglings as the evolved skins are just cosmetic. The Sentinel skin with three fingers and two toes is labeled as the evolved skin. So I was not really wrong when I said that as that is literally what the skin description says. What was a mistake on my hand was not specifying that distinction, I should have seen this misunderstanding coming.

Well you know which camp I fall under as I made the thread and all, I prefer that it stays as a medium range abduction mechanic with maybe a short little stun at the end when the human reaches the Deceiver. Reason I prefer it be that way is because I feel a hard stun is already what Dominate Mind is, and I wanted this to be a fast paced alternative to it with emphasis on their spider-like qualities.

But a trap ability would also be nice so feel free to discuss that, I already have a few ideas for how that could work. One way is for the trap to work like barrier you place down between objects, like two walls for example, as an actual invisible spider's web that humans can walk into, getting stuck. This would work exactly like a spider's web works in real life, the fly does not see the web until it is too late.

Ygdrasel
7th Oct 2015, 19:01
This would work exactly like a spider's web works in real life, the fly does not see the web until it is too late.

I can't imagine anyone complaining about an invisible wall ability. :P

ParadoxicalOmen
8th Oct 2015, 20:17
But a trap ability would also be nice so feel free to discuss that, I already have a few ideas for how that could work. One way is for the trap to work like barrier you place down between objects, like two walls for example, as an actual invisible spider's web that humans can walk into, getting stuck. This would work exactly like a spider's web works in real life, the fly does not see the web until it is too late.

Yeah i thought about this too...but then i realized that it might be restricted, since you wouldn't be able to make this "wall" anywhere (i think..?)

@Vampmaster
Btw, im not much fan of the web yank idea because it makes me think of spider-man
Next step is giving them a cocoon ability :p
https://youtu.be/wY6wq5pBo98?t=23s
wY6wq5pBo98

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2015, 21:19
Yeah i thought about this too...but then i realized that it might be restricted, since you wouldn't be able to make this "wall" anywhere (i think..?)

@Vampmaster
Btw, im not much fan of the web yank idea because it makes me think of spider-man
Next step is giving them a cocoon ability :p
https://youtu.be/wY6wq5pBo98?t=23s
wY6wq5pBo98

Talk about exaggeration. The web yank isn't remotely as OTT as some of the things spiderman does. He makes shapes and does acrobatics and stuff. We're talking a simple tug here, not some elaborate spectacle. Kain can do it and he doesn't even need the web. Also, they don't look or talk like spiderman, but you have to fave the fact that they do become very much like spiders.

A coccoon would be useless. First of all Psyonix have said they don't want to have players unable to control their characters for a more than a few seconds, and second if you cocooned a corpse, the most likely thing that would happen is you'd have stashed it close to where you last killed the enemy, then moved to the place the enemy respawned which it typically far away from that spot. It would rarely be near enough at the time you need it.

And if similarities with spiderman bother you, coccoons aren't any better: