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View Full Version : Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG



CountEyokir
24th Sep 2015, 09:24
I was browsing Steam finding that the only real Vampire RPG around was Vampire the Masquerade, which having a modern setting doesn't really interest me and wondered what an RPG set in the LoK universe would be like.

Imagine a Vampire RPG set in the world of Nosgoth, for the sake of this analogy say during Nosgoth's time period, where you get to choose your vampire clan and you have a unique beginning depending on what you picked; such as how Dragon Age origins handled it. Then you get to the main quest, where it becomes like an Elder Scrolls game. You can go off and find the main quest, perhaps involving a returning Kain, or you can wander off to any point of the map of Nosgoth to want to explore.

Each clan could have racial and gameplay bonuses just like Elder Scrolls races and each one could have a evolving tech tree you can level up by, perhaps once you get to a certain point you become an 'evolved' Vampire complete with a skin change but still have the ability to change clothes/armor etc.

Perhaps there can be various sub factions through the fighting Vampire Empire, 'Warbands' where you can gain certain quests to perform and advance in their ranks.

----

Turelim race - Advanced physical damage, powerful TK blasts evolving later. Enhanced hearing in evolved status and sheer physical power.

Dumahim Race - Speed and agility advantage, gaining stealth abilities later. Their forging abilities would allow them great access to powerful items

Zephonim race - less HP and physical damage but their stealth is second to none. Able to use mind abilities to lure human prey to them and confuse enemies

Melchaim race - Summon up ghouls and other abominations, resurrect dead bodies as your thralls and command a small army but has the drawback of constant flesh decay as well as the need for blood

Razielim race - Flight and speed abilities and resistance to sunlight weaponry, gaining advanced flight based abilities later

Rahabim race - (Pauses for a moment to give Square Enix and Pysonix a significant stare) The only Vampire that can swim, granting them access to more secrets and hidden refuges then their rivals, but terribly weak against sunlight outside of the water, forcing them to wear protective garments.
----

Gugulug5000
26th Sep 2015, 01:37
It's a good idea; I'd play it. If they wanted, they could even have time traveling as a game/plot mechanic, that way you can go to all of the different eras and see all the cool things that may not exist later. They would have to heavily modify some areas depending on the era, but as an open world game, a lot of the wilderness would be pretty much the same, and would only require slight modifications or recoloring.

They need to do this. Open world LoK awesomeness would probably make my head explode. Vampires seem to be the best choice, but they could probably do the game with humans and I'd still play it.

ParadoxicalOmen
27th Sep 2015, 15:23
+1

This idea is great...perhaps i would go so far as to say this is what Nosgoth (game) should have been about...this is what they should have made as a spin-off (instead of a PvP MMO)...

ps: Just to clear up ambiguation, i do like the current Nosgoth game and am not complaining about it...

GenFeelGood
27th Sep 2015, 17:02
Throw in puzzles with the area exploration and I'm on board.

Gugulug5000
28th Sep 2015, 02:42
Throw in puzzles with the area exploration and I'm on board.

You could probably get some pretty cool puzzles going with being able to switch time eras. :D

As long as the story is legit, I'd be happy.

GenFeelGood
28th Sep 2015, 03:25
You could probably get some pretty cool puzzles going with being able to switch time eras. :D

As long as the story is legit, I'd be happy.

You could even use time travel to decide how you wish to reach your objective. Choose to travel through a tomb that was once a fortress, solving the obstacles meant to stop you, then going back in time once you are where your target would be in the past, or going back and simply charging through enemies in what is now a fortress with all obstacles removed because they have yet to be put in place.

Ygdrasel
28th Sep 2015, 07:37
You could even use time travel to decide how you wish to reach your objective. Choose to travel through a tomb that was once a fortress, solving the obstacles meant to stop you, then going back in time once you are where your target would be in the past, or going back and simply charging through enemies in what is now a fortress with all obstacles removed because they have yet to be put in place.

Now I'm just picturing Raziel getting his head lopped off by an axe then narrating "No, no, that's not what happened..."

KaininitePriestess
29th Nov 2015, 07:31
Honestly, this is what I've always dreamed of for next-gen LoK installments. Playing Skyrim made the desire for that even stronger, and if we couldn't get a Nosgoth-based MMORPG like Guild Wars or WoW, then I would at least want something Skyrim-like! They seemed like they were courting the idea of a massiely open-world game with Dead Sun, but it was more action/adventure based and less RPG-based. I think RPG-based would be the best type of game to convey the story, though, and would play thousands upon thousands of hours out of that game if it were made!

Just imagine roaming Nosgoth without an "edge" to the map, watching the sky turn to night above you and the stars and constellations of the world roll by, exploring the caves and nooks and crannies and villages, all with graphics as good as you'd get out of Skyrim or Fallout 4!

WE KNOW IT CAN BE DONE! LET US HAVE IT, SQUEENIX!

Ygdrasel
29th Nov 2015, 21:02
It can be done, and arguably should be done, but Squeenix doesn't care.

And how would evolved hearing work gameplay-wise. Unless the NPCs were into stealth...

I'd love to play a roaming Dumahim though...Or a Zephonim out to infiltrate the human citadel...

KaininitePriestess
30th Nov 2015, 05:08
Sadly, I'm wont to agree with you about what Squeenix has in mind for the franchise, regardless of how good Psyonix is with Nosgoth or what the fandom's wishes are for the future of the series.. ;/

And the humans would just have to develop greater skills in battle or their own stealth-detection as opposed to trying to be quiet enough to avoid getting caught by the Vampire. ;D

I don't even care what era it's set in. No matter who you got to play as, it would be amazing! The Ancients in their war against the Hylden, the Vampires and their genocide by the Sarafan, the clans and their squabbles amongst one another. It would all be amazing!

If we got a Skyrim-style game, too, it would possibly give us a larger-scale landmass to explore to better reflect what's supposed to be the entire world? Though they never say for certain if Nosgoth is just one small country who's citizens dictate the destruction of the entire world for the rest of their neighbors, or of the world is just very small or an ocean-based world with only one very small landmass known to it's inhabitants. THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE ALL WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT! GIVE US MORE, SQUARE! PLEASE!

Ygdrasel
30th Nov 2015, 05:54
Sadly, I'm wont to agree with you about what Squeenix has in mind for the franchise, regardless of how good Psyonix is with Nosgoth or what the fandom's wishes are for the future of the series.. ;/

And the humans would just have to develop greater skills in battle or their own stealth-detection as opposed to trying to be quiet enough to avoid getting caught by the Vampire. ;D

I don't even care what era it's set in. No matter who you got to play as, it would be amazing! The Ancients in their war against the Hylden, the Vampires and their genocide by the Sarafan, the clans and their squabbles amongst one another. It would all be amazing!

If we got a Skyrim-style game, too, it would possibly give us a larger-scale landmass to explore to better reflect what's supposed to be the entire world? Though they never say for certain if Nosgoth is just one small country who's citizens dictate the destruction of the entire world for the rest of their neighbors, or of the world is just very small or an ocean-based world with only one very small landmass known to it's inhabitants. THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE ALL WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT! GIVE US MORE, SQUARE! PLEASE!

I would say it must be set somewhere in the era of Kain's empire - ideally near the beginning so one can witness and partake in the subjugation of humankind firsthand. And why it must be Kain's era - Kain has cooler kids, with the evolution and all serving well for a 'tech tree' kinda progression. And the different clans in place could allow for different beginnings or playstyles.

KaininitePriestess
30th Nov 2015, 07:37
I would honestly prefer if it be set in Kain's era, as well, if only because he's kind of the entire reason for the Legacy of Kain, but I've always had a small pipedream of a game or book or something set during the Ancients' or Sarafan eras to give us more history. I just love those eras, and I would have been happy even if they'd just released them as a set of novels similar to the Forgotten Realms novels that D&D has. :)

Ygdrasel
30th Nov 2015, 08:10
I would honestly prefer if it be set in Kain's era, as well, if only because he's kind of the entire reason for the Legacy of Kain, but I've always had a small pipedream of a game or book or something set during the Ancients' or Sarafan eras to give us more history. I just love those eras, and I would have been happy even if they'd just released them as a set of novels similar to the Forgotten Realms novels that D&D has. :)

Games in those eras is one of the reasons why I continue to advocate for spinoff tales within LoK continuity. Or maybe when/if it comes time to eliminate the Pillars (because as long as they exist, the Hylden will always scheme to ruin them and subsequently destroy the world) or eliminate the blood curse, maybe Kain will travel back to the era of that first war...

KaininitePriestess
30th Nov 2015, 08:35
I would honestly love a series of spinoffs! Just...anything set in the world and how it relates to Kain's birthright/legacy and the Ancients and all of that would be glorious to me!

Passarbye
7th Dec 2015, 21:47
I would honestly love a series of spinoffs! Just...anything set in the world and how it relates to Kain's birthright/legacy and the Ancients and all of that would be glorious to me!

expanding on this, instead of just being a vampire in the time of Kain's empire, how awesome would it be to play as an ancient? Fighting the Hylden and going around ancient nosgoth on a quest to find a way to decimate the other race would be really cool imo.

Ygdrasel
8th Dec 2015, 03:51
expanding on this, instead of just being a vampire in the time of Kain's empire, how awesome would it be to play as an ancient? Fighting the Hylden and going around ancient nosgoth on a quest to find a way to decimate the other race would be really cool imo.

Even when playing Kain in BO, his actions were largely for the greater good. The Ancients, by all current accounts, were just violent zealots. If we were to play an Ancient, I'd rather it be as more than some cult soldier. Introduce some ambiguity or alternate motives to the mix. Or maybe we just play Janos and see what he was up to in the time after the war up to his death at Raziel's hand.

Though given a choice between the races, I'd much prefer a stint as the pre-banishment Hylden. We've got basically nothing on them. And of course, I'd love to play as Vorador. Could start off with his forging the Reaver, then his turning...

And if they wanted to get really obscure, well, there's always Irmok (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Irmok). :P

KaininitePriestess
8th Dec 2015, 04:10
Aww, Irmok! ;D I always thought that old crazyguy was adorable and fascinating. I wanna know why he do the way he do!

Ygdrasel
8th Dec 2015, 07:53
Aww, Irmok! ;D I always thought that old crazyguy was adorable and fascinating. I wanna know why he do the way he do!

I remember being disappointed that I couldn't kill him. I wasted a bunch of artifacts trying.
Not disappointed because I wanted to kill him but...
Leaving him alive in that state, y'know...He's like a crippled puppy.
I honestly felt like it'd be a mercy. I swear, the one time I try to do good...:mad2:

As the article will tell, he was apparently slated to be Moebius at some point prior to release.

So I like to think he was an oracle that got usurped when Moebius took up the mantle. He'd pretend to be the Guardian of Time and deal bogus predictions for a hefty fee of kronah (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Kronah)...But then Moebius caught word and decided he'd take up the job for his own ends.

Also, the way he stirs that broth brings to mind the beginning of Blood Omen, the guardians with that pool of visions. Maybe when Moebius swept in, being the sadist that he is, he subjected poor Irmok to a glimpse of something wondrous/awful and he became fixated to the point of madness...Forever trying to reclaim those visions from the magical pool...

...Holy ****, did I just turn this one-time NPC into a tragedy tale? XD

KaininitePriestess
8th Dec 2015, 14:35
I remember being disappointed that I couldn't kill him. I wasted a bunch of artifacts trying.
Not disappointed because I wanted to kill him but...
Leaving him alive in that state, y'know...He's like a crippled puppy.
I honestly felt like it'd be a mercy. I swear, the one time I try to do good...:mad2:

As the article will tell, he was apparently slated to be Moebius at some point prior to release.

So I like to think he was an oracle that got usurped when Moebius took up the mantle. He'd pretend to be the Guardian of Time and deal bogus predictions for a hefty fee of kronah (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Kronah)...But then Moebius caught word and decided he'd take up the job for his own ends.

Also, the way he stirs that broth brings to mind the beginning of Blood Omen, the guardians with that pool of visions. Maybe when Moebius swept in, being the sadist that he is, he subjected poor Irmok to a glimpse of something wondrous/awful and he became fixated to the point of madness...Forever trying to reclaim those visions from the magical pool...

...Holy ****, did I just turn this one-time NPC into a tragedy tale? XD

Holy cow, man, I never knew all of that! The thought of him being Moebius makes sense, I remember wondering if that's who he was in disguise the first time I saw him! XD That leaves so many fun ideas to roll through your brain when you think about the possibilities that one little random dude contained.

Ygdrasel
8th Dec 2015, 21:33
Holy cow, man, I never knew all of that! The thought of him being Moebius makes sense, I remember wondering if that's who he was in disguise the first time I saw him! XD That leaves so many fun ideas to roll through your brain when you think about the possibilities that one little random dude contained.

I actually completely forgot about him until stumbling across the article while curating information for my project. One wonders why, after deciding he wouldn't be Moebius, they still bothered to give him a name, voice and fairly important role... (Though, if one is myself, one satisfies that wondering by turning him into a tragic lunatic. XD)

His lack of fear of Kain - and some surprising knowledge of vampiric powers - raises some fun questions too...

KaininitePriestess
8th Dec 2015, 23:12
Eh, they probably just meant to make something of the assets they'd already put into the game instead of scrap it. Maybe adding a line of dialogue or two here and there were easier then deleting him outright? Who knows. Game development is a funny thing like that. :p

Ygdrasel
10th Jan 2016, 02:39
Been reading about Dead Sun again. Got me thinking: Nosgoth exists in some part to recycle Dead Sun's visual assets - primarily the maps, animations, etcetera. But why not recycle its story assets? Some of them could make for an actually interesting installment if they were just retooled to embrace the LoK story as opposed to distancing from it:

The vampires in that era are "devoutly religious", can consume souls, and the primary plot was apparently to be some mystery around the Elder God. -- Dead Sun is set in a far-future era. But a race of soul-reaving vampires existing in the future doesn't make any sense if Kain won out against the Elder God:

A) If the EG still lived in some form, Kain will have made it known for future peoples and nobody would wish to serve the leech.
B) If the EG was dead, still nobody would wish to even mimic servitude to him by eating souls anyway. So why would they have led themselves toward that evolution?


But say Kain set to work raising a new lot of vampires - not for conquest this time, but aid in restoring the balance. And in some moment of vulnerability for Kain, the Elder God - long-since retreated in fear of Kain's blade and starving again, but still relatively strong (even as he meets Raziel thousands of years into Kain's empire, he's quite remarkable) - strikes him down. Kain can't be killed due to his Scion-immortality but perhaps trapped someplace (to eventually be rescued, of course, by the player protagonist).

And while Kain's trapped, the Elder has a thought: Eradicating the vampires has very clearly not worked out despite all efforts...So he takes a new approach: He sets his many sights upon Kain's new children, whispering into their heads and cultivating himself a new cult...An entire cult of immortal soul reavers whom he teaches to shift between the realms (making them reliant, as Raziel once was, on portals or something else as the "only" pathway) for the purposes of serving him. He builds up back to power, and dark days are ahead.

^ Big epic opening cutscene, right there. Brings everything up to speed. Rather than Kain going on to immediately and triumphantly wipe out the Elder God (as many assumed would be the follow-up from Defiance), it's an era where he failed. That can be interesting.

Instead of being this desperately-reaching-for-an-excuse-to-reuse-shifting-powers vamp-soul-human-hybrid, Asher is a member of the new Elder God cult who begins to stray for such-and-such reason, eventually discovering what his god is and ultimately rescuing Kain. Kain, seeing Asher's ability to shift to the spectral plane at will (and inevitably comparing it to Raziel, of course), tasks him with teaching and/or magically imparting the shifting ability to Kain (may or may not be a one-way trip, depending on whether the story calls for a tragic sacrifice) to track down and end the leech once and for all.

Heretic_13
23rd Jan 2016, 23:03
After seeing- and playing-Silenced Cathedral map i really hope Nosgoth is only component used to check out who would buy proper Single Player game in set in this world.
Silenced Cathedral is... beautiful. It gave this right kind of nostalgia along with new graphic and old-time atmosphere. Just one look on this monumental pipethingi going up. to real Silenced Cathedral- makes you want ot march up there and see how everything looks inside
Only one map gave me this "i wanna just look to see all the details on this map"- Crucible :)
About "Dead Sun" or Legacy of Kain 6 in general we were arguing many times. Personally i am tired of waiting for new Raziel-Kain game, i don`t even know if i ever live to see it :)
So as Ygdrasel said- why not take good things from cancelled project and use it?
For example we have Nosgoth(land, not game :P) set in 4th paradox timeline- Elder is defeated(>sniff< Tony, nobody will be ever able to replace you) Raziel is imprisoned/killed/vanished in battle with his master, his soul was finally free, Kain is only a distant memory and Legend, as he also vanished after doing his duty.
And here we are, landing in the world that only started recovering after thousands of years of Elder sucking it dry. Humans are still rarity so thier settelments are rare also, and vampires only got thier minds, and powers back, and also start to gather and reform thier forces.
And thats would be the story going along with "Nosgoth" spirit- we have two sides, we pick one, and help them dominate/vanquish others.
It would be fresh start, but of courae littered with nostalgia trips :) and could give us new enemy, trying to continue Elder legacy or somethin- much like Alduin was soul eater in "Skyrim" and the worst evil. we`d had some rogue vampires along with some powerful humans trying to break death-and rebirth cycle
One warning though- i usually find proper RPGs stupid and really immersion breaking- because you have "iron sword" you have to smack the guy 100+ times with it, because his level is high... So i`d propose rather something along first "Soul Reaver", "Tomb Raider" or "Blood Rayne 2"- your character has full set of skills, but can learn some additinal ones, helping him/her along the journey, or opening doors previously closed. For example we`d pick a class that is a good combatant- noble man or something- but doors to the temple we have to raid are closed with magic- so we need to aquire enough gold/money/whatever, find some monks/mages/prophets/druid/some other crazy mystic and learn required skill
And another thing i`d want is total freedom- in my choices of course, aside from main story line i can do/or not do- whatever the hell i want. It really **** me off in, let`s say "Skyrim" i have to do Thieves Gulid storyline, or be a Companion, or aquire Deadric artefacts-otherwise quest will linger eternally in my journal- thank god for mods. I`d like to be able to say "**** off" if the quests are opposing character i am playing- i want to play good guy- no stealing, no murdering innocents and so on. I choose human character, but in the middle of the game i decide they are not whorty of my help and i go to vampires, do some things for them to gain thier trust, become a whorshipper, then finally get my Dark Gift. I play as vampire, but suddenly thier cruelty is too much, so i go to humans, show them i`ll never hurt anyone of them, recive status "Forsaken" and help them eradicate my kind
Something along these lines :)

Ygdrasel
23rd Jan 2016, 23:33
Heretic, how many times must I advise you on the usage of the Enter key? Hit it twice. :p

And I said take the good things, so why in your concept has the Elder been killed already? :scratch:
The whole point of continuing from Defiance should be to kill him. That's where the story is now.
And it'd be suuuuuuuper lame to have the main antagonist of all known history be killed offscreen between games. XD


Shifting allegiances would be an interesting feature. Though any vampire swearing he'll never hurt a human is a plain liar.

Heretic_13
28th Jan 2016, 17:50
No Tony= No Elder. Nobody will be able to replace him :( true we can have another talented guy do his part, but... This ain`t the same and that is why i proposed Elder "killed", just so you know.
"Forsaken" could use volunteers, sort of like you can "sip" from humans in "Soul Reaver". But this would have to be willing people and vampire could not kill them. Game-play wise this could mean your character evolution would progress slower- less blood per lunch :), and you`d have to - i really don`t like using this words like that- "gather reputation"- the more people knows you are thier defender, the more is willing to help sustain your strenght and quench thirst. So your vampire would be weaker, or process of maturation would be slower, than vampire loyal to Empire. But it also wolud mean access to different styles of combat and more deadly weapons- imagine Reaver running on the rooftops with repeater :D or Tyrant charging with flamethrower. And you can still just drop this thing and fall back to daggers/tomahawks/maces/claws

Ygdrasel
8th Feb 2016, 23:19
No Tony= No Elder. Nobody will be able to replace him :( true we can have another talented guy do his part, but... This ain`t the same and that is why i proposed Elder "killed", just so you know.

Another victim of the false nostalgia-induced concept of "Nobody can replace [x]!". But in reality, he can be replaced. He was just a voice, and not even the only deep menacing voice in the world. We'll certainly never get a resolution if people keep falling into that silly mindset though. :(

calypso-694
11th Feb 2016, 05:54
1. Vampire bloodlines and it's Sudo prequel Redemption are some of the best RPGs out there and have a great take on vampires.

I wouldn't mind an LOK RPG or Nosgoth RPG. Would be a good change to all the high fantasy out there.

As for Tony and Paul passing yeah it's still crazy sad but finding a replacement wouldn't be that hard. Getting Earl Boen (Sarafan lord in BO2) would be a good replacement for Tony or Donald Sutherland. However if it ever does happen they'll probably get Corey Burton to do it (Kingdom Hearts series, any deep voice Christopher lee replacement)

Honestly LOK has had a bunch of varying types of action adventure gameplay so seeing it as an RPG (dragon age origins style maybe?) would be interesting.

Dead Sun look kinda promising minus the story. YES I'm tired of batman/AC combat a bit too but if they did it right...I'll even take the DMC style combat again but please no terrible fixed camera angles.

Ygdrasel
12th Feb 2016, 00:47
I'll even take the DMC style combat again but please no terrible fixed camera angles.

Honestly, Defiance's biggest combat flaw wasn't even that it mimicked DMC.
It was that its big marketing point was playing both characters - and they both used the same moves. Lame.

Earl Beon actually replaced Tony Jay once before, voicing the Sarafan Lord (originally the Dark Entity in BO, voiced by Tony). So that would actually be quite appropriate.

And Bloodlines is pretty great. Rather different version of vampires, granted. XD
Redemption's gameplay shift killed it for me though.

Heretic_13
15th Feb 2016, 23:24
This is gonna by loooong. Reading on your own responsibility:
Ok, so i see we can replace people who passed away. I agree, you have a point. I`m leaving this subject- i still hate concept of immortal heroes/antagonists, and it really screws up story for me- save may feel immersion breaking, but idea that you`ll come back anyway INSIDE game world- death is nothing to worry about- it really destroys story(for me) You are almight. Why? Because. But that is my feeling about it. Nevermind

Before you even start: i know the title of Thread is "Legacy of Kain - Skyrim/Dragon Age RPG" but the more i play RPG the more i see how freaking stupid they are- skill in wearing armours, not to mention how armours are designed these days in games(Deadric armour in "Skyrim"- what the ****?! And does anybody in you life awared you with anything just because you know how to wear a hat properly???), baseball style sword fighting with special moves pulled out of creator ****, not to mention swords and axes made in such a way, that every person out there who knows his/hers weapons runs away and cry in the corner, because then you`ll have whole bunch of fanboys beliving that two handed sword has 30 kg and to wield it you just need strenght.

Experience needed for learning(any of you had to run outside and kill dog/cat/chicken/razorfish/deer/bear/lion, before you started reading cooking book, or opened a spanish dictioanry??? Why??? It is normal that when i practise fighting i learn about fighting not about alchemy)

Dumbing down whole game storyline and puzzles, so some 12 old boy won`t run away when he`ll have to >gasp<....(dramatic pause) think for himself. Morrowind- while i don`t like this game(point blank shots from bow or sword swings missig, because i don`t have "skill"), but freedom in there was amazing, for example learning how to cure vampirism was really though- bit and pieces of clues here and there... Skyrim? Go to the guy- any guy(guard if i remember correctly)- he`ll direct you to a guy, who`ll tell you what to do. Morrowind- this guy is important in storyline... Butr you can cut his head off. You won`t progress in this quest line, but you can kill him. Skyrim? Oblivion? Important guys are immortal, and you don`t have any choice with some quest storylines(deadric artefacts for example- you can play goody two shoes, but yuo`ll have to kill, sacrafice, cheat and lie, because otherwise this quest will stuck with you forever)- developers will hold your hand from the begining. In many RPGs: no real change even if you save the world several times. Skyrim- ended cyvil war, killed dragons, destroyed vampire overlord, who threatened to block the sun, kiilled mind controling "other" Dragonborn, became thane all over the place, destroyed Assassin gulid, made whole bunch of things where my character risked his life to protect lives and welfare of Skyrim citizens...

Then he walks in to the town... "What do you want milk drinker?", "i bet you a 100 septims i can beat you in fist fight"........... Not to mention- you can be Companion- honorable warrior, Thief, assassin, mage and pure blood vampire. One would expect that joining thievs or hitmen would rather close the doors to warriorrs who claim to be honorable. Or beig vampire overlord would change attitude of some people toward you. You waltz in to the town with your eyes glowing red and bloodthirst allover your face. Jarl- "how are you friend?", i change in my more monstrous form, people start fleeing, guards try to take me down. I run away, come back in human form- one of guards stops me... and demand i should pay fine, or go to jail. Dosen`t matter i can grow wings and suck life out of him with the palm of my hand- he just wants me to pay up

Bandits attacked in wilderness, in the middle of a fight dragon joined in. My character killed it. What bandits do, even after over half of them lies down in pools of blood, and my dragonborn just consumed dragons soul? Still tries to mug him

Risen- you are master swordsman, killed Shadow Lord in our island, helped mages, helped our guardians, mastered
crystal magic, and have enough stamina to outrun a deer. Wonderful- you`ll start as our whipping boy, like everyone...



I`m gonna cry. Or not. But RPGs are by definition most moronic games out there, only slashers, when one guy plows through whole unit with one swing of sword, and combat games like "Mortal Kombat" are stupider- i have a sword that has +1 to bleeding... but you have armour that grants protectiuon against barbed swords(...really? barbed swords? Who the **** fight with a sword that has spikes?!) so we need to throw a dice to determine who recives damage...

You see what i am saying here? Hacking at the enemy for half an hour just because i have 10 in sword wielding skill and he has 100000000000 hp is not going be fun in LOK world. If anything i`d vote for action game with RPG elements- no, not GTA style, hate this freaking game- more of a rather experienced hero(nobody can learn fighting in 2 days- i mean from complete zero. And anyone who ever trained knows that theory is easy- making body listen and move properly is not) that learns additional skills, spells, completing his own abilities- they make journey easier but most of them aren`t really necessary. In Soul Reaver, aside form boss battles, you don`t have to fight even once- you can go through the game like Pope Innocent III- now that is(partially) freedom, you don`t need glyphs, weapons, fire reaver- they make life easier, but you don`t need them.

1. Common sense when developing combat, armours, skills- i`d love to see it at least once

2. And puzzles- something that rewards logicall thinking and ability to focus- on contents of dialouges, encoutered books, and scattered pieces of lore- for more than 5 seconds.

3. Boss fights that require thinking and looking for weak point- but for the love of God- not some glowing/pulsing/bleeding/etc part of body periodically left ungarded so my character can went all of his frustration after dodging for an hour and a half. Leave something to my invention. Like enviroment kills or something. Collapse freaking pillar on him. Example- lore freaks won`t like it, but it is only example, something i came up with just now for the sake of argument- Zephon, looking more like some Hindu god, 3 meters tall, 3 pairs of hands, holding long sabres(rather than this immobilized Alien Queen parody) but of course with all of his demonic looks. We fight him in his chamber. Big chamber, lots of curtains made of spider like web allowing our enemy to jump around unnoticed, dissappear without a trace somwhere in the darkness near roof- we try to go through a web, we get stuck- he uses this curtains as traps or distractions- generates sounds that make us hear his footsteps behind us. What should we do? Well. we can try fire- setting silk ablaze, use our skills to try and push Zephon it to his own net and then trying to damage him, before he rips it, find a way out- imagine duel on the top of a Silenced Cathedral, fighting to push enemy from the top in to the moat/spikes/just fall damage(if he fall on his back, he`ll get squashed), or using tip of the buliding to generate sound that will stunn him long enough for us to do something nasty- and in, lets call it that, my game every single of these solutions would be used in game. Just so you can fight in different ways and try to think

Give me game like that, with dark story from the realm of Nosgoth- and i`m more than willing to fork over cash. Give me something more than another generation of Busty Riders(with exception of a last one- that was neat game), Assassin Freaks, Sims, Zombie Plowing(Resident Evil), Call of Duty, or other self generating clones. I need me some proper game that will show the world that this can be medium, and can show interesting story- alongside books and films. That this is an art form
"Heavy Rain"- in case you wondering what game can be art :)
Verry sorry dor such a long post

BigAaron
22nd Feb 2016, 22:05
is it true that there might be a new LOK game coming out?..if so i hope it will be for 360 and ps3 case i only have a 360..idc if its for the newer gen consoles but they cancled dead sun before it chould even make a offical apperince to gaming stores..so it should be on 360 and ps3 for the important part..case i cant afored it a new console like ps4 or xboxone i also hope they add some of that combat system like what dead sun had..im not an ASC fan or a Batman arkhim fan..i just like what was seen and think it should be added the counter attack abilty for countering a enemys attack before it hits you when prompt..do you guys also know anything bout why people were hyped to see anthere possable LOK game?..if so reply when you can..and i hope they dont cancle this one not everything can be completly fixed..even morador has a few probs other then texture bugs had long load times even in cutscences which might have been lag even crashed alot but updates were made to eather fix or shorten some of these to the point were it was very rare to happen..bugs will even happen during devolpment but some can be hard to notice but will show up in beta testing..then are taken back to be fixed..or at the very least changed were it rarly happens as i saied..theres going to be bugs in every game most of which cant be fixed at all but changed so if any of you guys work for squire enix or edios whichever company is thinking of making the new LOK game along side one of those dont try to push yourself to fix a single thing that looks like it cant be fixed change it were it doesnt happen alot were it rare....its not worth cancling the whole game over..if load times are like 3 hours long try and change to be 5 maybe 10 mins moradors was almost that long when i 1st got it...until the updates...rarely crashes and freezes ..no mor 1 hour load times and hardly lags...companys like you squire enix cant always stop them..yes when they get a game and stuff like that happens people will get upset..but if some of your staff have time to programe updates to fix these after the game is out then do it..it will make alot of people happy to see that it doesnt happen as often with updates..it may still happen but it will be rare if it does...good luck with the new LOK game im looking foword to it..and try not to cancle it this time ofc it might might not..but im not expecting i ..but it does come out..i hope it has some good combat and stuff like dead sun before it got cancled..peace and leave a reply when you can

Ygdrasel
22nd Feb 2016, 22:30
But RPGs are by definition most moronic games out there

If you want to rant on about how awful it is that games set in fictional non-realities are unrealistic (however silly such a rant is), go right ahead but there is nothing by definition that makes them the "most moronic games out there". And whatever its quality as art may be, 'Heavy Rain' is a really bad game. It shouldn't be the standard for anything.

Also you blatantly have no idea what "parody" means. And that entire fight you describe with Zephon is just as formulaic as the kind you rail against...

Heretic_13
26th Feb 2016, 12:30
Also you blatantly have no idea what "parody" means. And that entire fight you describe with Zephon is just as formulaic as the kind you rail against...

Oh really? what is not as "formulaic" then? Fight Kain vs Elder God form Defiance, when we have big freaking eye, that "drops guard" every few minutes? Or Raziel vs Turel, when all was missing is a big red pointer showing us, what we need to hit? Or maybe some idiotic, over the top thing, like in "Gods of War" or "Gears of War"?- i played for 15 minutes both, and dropped them right there. Ain`t my type
If new LOK game would ever rear it`s ugly head, eventual boss fights i`d want to be just like first Soul Reaver- you need to find solution- Use enviroment. Not going "max dmg" on nobody- just find a proper way(s) to deal with someone, you can`t harm normaly- that is what i want. And as i pointed "my fight" with Zephon is only example. I thought of it the moment i wrote this. I don`t mean i want it "just like this" i new game
I didn`t "rant"(ok, a little, but i didn`t mean to do that)- i pointed that RPGs are by the very nature moronic and as unrealitic(i mean... you know what i mean, i wrote all this stuff above), as video games can get
So if anything- let LOK stay in TPP world, as it is. If you want RPG elements, like learning new skills, fine. But they need to be tools, not focus of the game, like you have in Skyrim, Gothic, or Risen(you won`t get some quests/items/skills/progress in main story unless you haven`t reach certian level, gulid, or have enough experience points.)- you don`t need proper level, xp points, just "right place, right time", or if this will be some trainer- bit of gold.
Heavy Rain is bad game, but proper story. Just as Legacy of Kain always was. Even the weakest parts still have story that pulls you toward a computer, and make you forget about gameplay, that is really, and be honest here, clunky and inelegant. It shows there are a ways to make a video game that can be just as good as book, or movie. And that is it. That is what i want. End of story

Heretic_13
24th Mar 2016, 15:50
And one more thing: combat system. Yes, it is relevant. To this day i basically saw only two combat systems that were good enough for this type of games. One: "Severance: Blade of Darkness" and some titles that used combat sytems much like it: "Jedi Outcast: Jedi Knight 2", "Jedi Academy" and "Dishonored"/"Dark Messiah"- with last ones having pretty fun kicking/enviroment kill mechanic, and magic always at the ready intead of "equipping" it. The direction of movement had not only changed the way of attacking, but also changed direction of attacks, and possible "going around" enemy parade intead of force bashing shield outta the way, and hacking at enemy. Finesse
Two: "Batman: Arkham Asylum"- if you insist on mainly hand-to-hand combat. In this i only admire free-flow, and simple, intuitive mechanic of fighting, definetly not this over the top movements, or complete lack of melee weapons(... Sighhhhh... If you have skill, why not use weapons???)

Ygdrasel
25th Mar 2016, 06:23
If you have skill, why not use weapons???)

Because Batman doesn't kill. Depending on the writer. :lol:

The Witcher has nice combat. Weapons, mobility, stealth options IIRC.

As far as RPG aspects go, I'm pretty sure people just want the open world and non-linearity. Basically, they want options to not go in a straight line 100% of the time. Blood Omen is a great example, Soul Reaver too but less so. SR2 and Defiance got very...Straight. Nobody's asking for XP levels and all that. They want the narrative and world-building aspects of an RPG, not the gameplay mechanics.

And in regard to your Zephon idea: "Push him into the sticky web then attack until he breaks out" is exactly as formulaic and obvious as Turel or the EG or...Zephon's actual battle, really. They're all timing puzzles, and timing puzzles operate via formula.

Now if you want a more dynamic sort of battle, maybe Zephon chases Raziel up through the catacomb-esque hive of his lair (Picture the hivey parts of the Nosgoth map, all gross, webby, hole-ridden and cavern-tunnely but over a much vaster and connected area), lunging with his crazy dual-jaws, chucking cocooned humans to knock Raziel down.

So Raziel must avoid/outrun him - maybe taking different paths to slow Zephon's progress, say he can slip through crevices where Zephon (due to his size) would be forced to pause and tear away some obstructive webbing or some such.

Raziel ends up cornered at the top of the building but squeezes through a crack. Zephon bursts through shortly after leading to something akin to the SR battle at the pinnazle, all claws and eggs. But instead of lighting the eggs aflame, they're fired at Raziel and burst into little spider swarms upon contact, damaging him via many small bites.

When Zephon's claws come down, Raziel must position himself so that he can dodge and Zephon will accidentally tear away webbing clogging up a number of lever mechanisms (three is standard). Once all three are unobstructed and Raziel pulls them, it triggers the Cathedral's massive sound weapon and ends Zephon once and for all.

"But how can he chase you when he's stuck into the walls??" - He REALLY hates Raziel. Extend the usual cutscene and have him tear himself loose out of sheer spite, give Raziel a nice scare...Then to the chase!

"But the weapon would kill ALL vampires!" - Says who? Canon? It was never used. The humans? They're human. They can overestimate. But hey - it's still strong enough to kill a lieutenant, at least a weakened one (remember, Zephon is a part of the Cathedral. Tearing loose to chase after his brother would cause some major flesh wounds, at the least.)



Only the second phase is really environmental but the lead-up gives a sort of vicious predator vibe to Zephon and avoids the timing-puzzle formula (though this returns somewhat in phase two).

(And Heavy Rain is a very poor story for many reasons, mostly cut plot threads left dangling without explanation, nonsensical twists and really terrible voicework destroying any emotional depth...)

Heretic_13
25th Mar 2016, 18:01
Well, then we are basically agreeing with each other(....O_o... What the???) You just thought of something cooler than me- regarding Zephon battle.
I have nothing against Zephon going Alien Queen on my.... What is that thing? Is this still counts as butt when there is no fat and skin on it?... Anyway this would reall scare the life out of some people, when after reciving some dmg Zephon just roars "Enough of this ****!" and stands up :)
Killing Zephon with sound activated by him would be cool. I have nothing to add here. If anything, maybe first some impact trauma from high place, and the finishing him off with sound? Something along these lines?
Batman, original one from 1930`s was brutal, and sometime he`d killed some bad guys, which is far more interesting to me than this 70`s "Perfect hero" one. But whatever. I meant this: let`s agree that Soul Reaver 1 era vampires are feral beasts(sighhh...) and they have only some degree of thier previous intelect. But i have two big but`s(No pun intended):
1. Stupid animals(no animal is stupid, but i needed a word here), no matter how powerfull, or big, can be easliy destroyed with tactic and proper tools. Turelim has telekinesis? Fine our Crossbowmen start wearing this big pavises, like Genoese crossbowmen. Zephonim has weps? We`ll set them on fire. They have claws? We have armor. And so forth. But humans never managed that, so it seems, vampires still have some degree of tactical thinking
2. So why won`t they carry anything??? Stupid knife and spear and you are set. "They are feral".... are they stupider than jungle monkeys? Because even chimp knows that with big, heavy stick or rock he can kill something that he wouldn`t bare handed.
But that is only my personal prefference. I imagine armed vampire should be tougher, and more fun to kill.
Because, no, claws aren`t that threatening to someone in armor

Ygdrasel
26th Mar 2016, 03:43
Well, then we are basically agreeing with each other(....O_o... What the???) You just thought of something cooler than me- regarding Zephon battle.
I have nothing against Zephon going Alien Queen on my.... What is that thing? Is this still counts as butt when there is no fat and skin on it?... Anyway this would reall scare the life out of some people, when after reciving some dmg Zephon just roars "Enough of this ****!" and stands up :)
Killing Zephon with sound activated by him would be cool. I have nothing to add here. If anything, maybe first some impact trauma from high place, and the finishing him off with sound? Something along these lines?
Batman, original one from 1930`s was brutal, and sometime he`d killed some bad guys, which is far more interesting to me than this 70`s "Perfect hero" one. But whatever. I meant this: let`s agree that Soul Reaver 1 era vampires are feral beasts(sighhh...) and they have only some degree of thier previous intelect. But i have two big but`s(No pun intended):
1. Stupid animals(no animal is stupid, but i needed a word here), no matter how powerfull, or big, can be easliy destroyed with tactic and proper tools. Turelim has telekinesis? Fine our Crossbowmen start wearing this big pavises, like Genoese crossbowmen. Zephonim has weps? We`ll set them on fire. They have claws? We have armor. And so forth. But humans never managed that, so it seems, vampires still have some degree of tactical thinking
2. So why won`t they carry anything??? Stupid knife and spear and you are set. "They are feral".... are they stupider than jungle monkeys? Because even chimp knows that with big, heavy stick or rock he can kill something that he wouldn`t bare handed.
But that is only my personal prefference. I imagine armed vampire should be tougher, and more fun to kill.
Because, no, claws aren`t that threatening to someone in armor

Telekinesis of sufficient power won't be stopped by any pavises. It'd just hit the thing and knock them back regardless. Action, reaction. And the Zephonim are multi-limbed acrobats. They simply wouldn't need weapons - they have extra arms. (Also, given that Infect 'summons' wasps or whatever, I have this idea that a part of their evolutionary experiments involved turning their own bodies into incubation hives for insects. So they'd probably put that to use too.)

Humans have armor? Supernaturally-powered claws can best that.

Jungle monkeys are not feral. Feral denotes a creature that was domesticated and became wild later on. Jungle monkeys are wild from birth to death. The vampires belonged to civilization before circumstances cast them into scattered chaos.

And FYI, a chimp can tear you apart with its bare hands. They don't need sticks and rocks to kill you. Neither do vampires.

Why? Well, chimps are powerful...And vampires are supernaturally powerful. Weapons are generally unnecessary. Though it's hinted that they used them in the prime of Kain's empire, this would have likely been an intimidation and/or self-discipline thing over any real need.

Thing is, a chimp could use a weapon because they're smart creatures. The vampires in the SR era? They're not smart. They're feral and insane. There's nobody making weapons for them anymore because their civilization collapsed centuries ago - and their minds are too far gone to wield anything more complicated than a stick anyway.

Now, personally, I think Psyonix has built up enough of this once-unexplored era to warrant a proper LoK title in the Nosgoth era, to really explore the time period and its populace - and the vampires then could use all sorts of weapons. Imagine facing off against a Zephonim wielding some kind of bo staff thing, you disarm them and run it through their heart...

GenFeelGood
26th Mar 2016, 23:37
One thing I'd like with regard to the Zephonim in any Soul Reaver remake is this, let Zephon be able to mentally control his spawn. Imagine cut scenes and fights where Raziel is approached by Zephonim that Zephon is speaking through as Raziel makes his way to him through the Cathedral, kind of like mini boss fights leading up to the final battle with the real Zephon.

Ygdrasel
27th Mar 2016, 21:48
One thing I'd like with regard to the Zephonim in any Soul Reaver remake is this, let Zephon be able to mentally control his spawn. Imagine cut scenes and fights where Raziel is approached by Zephonim that Zephon is speaking through as Raziel makes his way to him through the Cathedral, kind of like mini boss fights leading up to the final battle with the real Zephon.


I'd always assumed he was doing this basically 24/7. Not full-on control but a constant low-level hive-mind kinda deal. It'd definitely be interesting to see him use them as mouthpieces throughout. Then as you approach him, you see Zephonim swarming around bringing him bound victims to feed...

They could add some new bits to all the bosses, really, either incorporating Nosgoth tidbits or generally just adding a little more complexity.

Melchiah could fling corpses from his grotesque flesh-mass or have bodies littered about that he absorbs to boost strength/size - ultimately becoming large enough to necessitate the giant grinder that finishes him off. Maybe if he gets close, he tries to assimilate Raziel into his mass, punting him right into the spectral realm.


Zephon could utilize his mental trickery, controlling his spawn or twisting up Raziel's mind with illusions and hallucinations throughout the Cathedral and/or during the battle.


Morlock...Well, he'd be Morlock. Whatever. (Though, given his guarding position, he should be rather stronger...Maybe with a greater gift for telekinesis than the common Turelim rabble, outright tossing Raziel around like Kain does to Sarafan in Defiance or doing some charging stuff.

They could even reincorporate Turel's territory w/ a more fleshed-out Morlock serving in Turel's place as a boss battle atop the Smokestack if they liked. Frankly, his guarding the tomb makes little sense...Seems like only Raziel has the means to infiltrate it anyway, and Kain seems to want him to do so. Plus the Morlock battle on that little platform is boring. Imagine dueling a powerful spectrally-enhanced vampire on the rim of a massive smog-belching column though. Give him a staggering stomp shockwave that threatens to topple Raziel down into the smokestack. Or to still have him guarding the tomb but available to finish out Turel's place, maybe he gets bested outside the tomb but escapes before Raziel reaves him entirely - so he survives to take over Turel's region later but Raziel still gains a little power from his telekinetic gift.


Rahab's battle could have his spawn lunging across the platform at random, trying to take Raziel down into the water with their crazy jaws. Add some extra movement to the fight. Maybe the windows Raziel needs to shatter to roast him up are more scattered around and in a higher room, and Rahab keeps raising the water level at intervals forcing Raziel to reach higher ground to avoid drowning and let in the sunlight.


Dumah could chase you through one of his labyrinths, using that energy constrict like a whip/lasso to injure or drag you backward, lobbing shadow bombs to obscure navigation. To incorporate the ability gained from Rahab, maybe he needs to be tricked into some water after the initial furnace blast sears away some of his protective hide. Maybe at a point, he tries to fling Raziel into deep water - an obstacle planted in the labyrinth to add some sport to their hunts - only to be dragged along, believing he'd survive only to realize too late that Raziel is immune and the fire left him vulnerable...

Heretic_13
28th Mar 2016, 20:57
Every boss battle could be improved- QTE, more complex rooms, more complex enviroment kills. Everything. World could be free to explore- aside of course Generals quaters- lot`s of new artifacts to be found. Even stupid bits of armor, or weapons that could be carried in to spectral realm. I won`t complain over something like that- if shoulder cape, metal boots and wrist bracers could travel in to the underworld, then sacrafical knife from some primitive culture, that slashed throaths of thier victim and threw them in to Abyss(or whatever shrine, stonehenge or sacraficial pit) in Elder God(or whatever God) name can do this even more- after all objects and places do tend to absorb emotions :) even in our world

As for clwas against armor- brace yourself, here comes looong explenation, and i have to put on my Mentor persona, which i don`t like-(chimp could rip human apart- but only if said human stood there and let him. You`d be suprised how strong and durable human body can be. When 2 profesional martial artistans fight- blow to stomach[relatively flat surface] can reach strenght of 2 cars hitting each other head on with speed of 60 km/h. And we still can stand and fight back). I understand that we can say "magic", and that solves everything. Magic- and Dragon can fly like butterfly, without a sound, and ground shaking "whoosh" when he flies by. Magic- and enemy is set ablaze by mere thought(pyrokinesis). Magic- water turns in wine :). Magic- sword/claws go through armor, like it wasn`t even there- then why did it hit fles underneath, if it passess through solid objects? Only it is not terribly fun, and don`t look really good. It looks "untrue". If game is to make a proper impact on player- more than a few of laws of our world have to be present.
If armor is useless- nobody will wear it- what for? It`s only extra weight. So? Will all Vampire Hunters run around naked, or bare chested in new game? Highly doub it- i saw people reactions to bare breasts in Dead Sun gameplay, and would be pretty tedious to see everyone run around like that. Also there is another big "but":
Just because something is sharp- it won`t go through hard, flexible material. It requires to be of greater hardeness(diamond vs steel for example), proper shape(like drill, or thin blade. Claws arent good penetrating weapons. They are great at slashing and ripping though, but that is preciesly a type of damage that even most primitive armors are made against e.g. early stone age leather armors), and flexibility(so it won`t break hitting hard surface). And strenght. Lots and lots. "Vampire are strong enough". Ok. Let`s assume they are strong enough.

But no human is able to stand in one place, when such strenght tries to drill through breast plate. He`ll fly away, or bounce back. He is allowed to fight back and try to dodge. Do you even know how much strenght it`s needed to penetrate steel armor? Modern short firearms have problems when distance is big enough(30-40 meters- i`ll find source later, no i can`t seem to find it now. For now i have only this and it`s not terribly convincing, or sientific https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtopxCjs518 time: 1:21 skip the part where he tries to be funny). It`s not only hard, but also flexible. Designed to take great force. Vampire would have to grab human- put him/her on the ground, immobilize him somehow, like in a vice, and press, hoping that steel wont make victim slide to the side... or victim won`t fight back. Knives are such a darings in such situations... Armor is shaped in such a way, so the blows slide and only glance it`s surface. Of Course developers could could make them like daedric armor from Skyrim, that is perfect blows magnet, but i hope not- not to mention, that armor was made form ebony, something like obsidian, which is even harder than steel. And when you train with armor, you learn how to position your body in a way that make even strongest blows just slide off you. And the same goes for parrying with weapons, shields and so on. If one want to hunt vampires, i`d imagine they won`t take farm boy, who never had even long knife in his hands, to do it- it`ll be army of trained professionals

Lastly, strenght is not needed in a fight, in fact is mostly hindering- throws out of balance. Speed, precision, and finesse. Big dumb brutes are easy targets. Stick a knife in his elbow, and fingers stop responding and guy just lost ability to grip. Get him in the knee, and even regenerator will fall on his face for crucial seconds allowing you to crush his skull. Why would i want to bludgeon somebody till my arms want to fall off, when i can do small movement to pass his block/parry and get him, lightly wounding, make him flinch, loose balance, so my next move can be big and finishing? I have been traning for about 5 years, more if we add my "weekend lessons" with my father before that. Had my share(several) of proverbial "bar brawls" during my university days. I can assure anybody- one hit, one kill is very hard to achive- adrenaline, density of sking, muscles, bones, clothes(stupid winter jacket can take a lot of strenght out of impcat. Leather jacket can stop dagger blade), slightly different personal body features- strenght, height, pain treshold, sometimes drugs and/or alcochol. I once got 17 hits in my face(guy attack me from behind, sat on me and started punching, and yes i was drunk enough to count. It didn`t even hurt that much- only one lip was bleeding, and had a snicker sole shped bruise. I gave back once, from the level of the ground, so icouldn`t really put much strenght in to it, when i got my composure, and blocked his hands- straight into the nose, and he "left me alone". And to top it all off- nobody stand still and let himself to be hit with full force, when he expects it

If shields aren`t enough, humans will try something different. You said once yourself, Ygdrasel, that this is war, and in war we use only what is efficient And why would pavise be not enough? I didn`t see telekinesis going through rocks, walls, or ground. So soild object can stop it. If human wouldn`t be able to take this force, use some kind of supporting mechanisms, spring activated for example. Zpehonims are acrobats. Why not use a gun that shoots net? Irony, y`know. And then finish monster with flamethrower or even spear. Or use bomb like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmBHd86P5MY
time:22:54 to 25:15 be patient, i gave some more time to have little background about "thier" vampires
:D it`s anime, so it`s over the top, just like our favourite Vampire Saga, but they got some things right
Sorry for long post

Ygdrasel
30th Mar 2016, 08:31
I quit reading after you suggested that QTEs were any kind of improvement.

Heretic_13
30th Mar 2016, 18:54
You really like to get stuck on words. You probably don`t know this, but when i write answer, i usually don`t sit around and evaluate, if this was smart, really catchy or whatever. It`s like me speaking my mind. Don`t like QTE? Fine. That was just one idea from top of my head. And i`m not talking about Resident Evil Buttons Smashing- more like, Raziel is creeping around, trying to figure where is Zephon, and boom, suddenly camera changes view, his little bro jumps off the dark ceiling. Something like that. Just the idea. I don`t have scripted "Boss Fight" in my head. I don`t know now, how it should look, or how i would like to see it

GenFeelGood
31st Mar 2016, 13:10
@Ygdrasel

Imagine if Zephon created an illusion that made Raziel appear as his old self again, with his tattered wings appearing as a pair of capes; and showing Raziel his clan as they were when last saw them, in his clan territory. At the end, the illusion dissolving as Raziel enters a trophy room that is filled with the bones of his clan; and Raziel once again seeing his horrid form.

Ygdrasel
31st Mar 2016, 21:17
You really like to get stuck on words. You probably don`t know this, but when i write answer, i usually don`t sit around and evaluate, if this was smart, really catchy or whatever. It`s like me speaking my mind. Don`t like QTE? Fine. That was just one idea from top of my head. And i`m not talking about Resident Evil Buttons Smashing- more like, Raziel is creeping around, trying to figure where is Zephon, and boom, suddenly camera changes view, his little bro jumps off the dark ceiling. Something like that. Just the idea. I don`t have scripted "Boss Fight" in my head. I don`t know now, how it should look, or how i would like to see it

I know what you were talking about. My response was that it's not any improvement. QTEs are cheap and unimaginative and if you fail them, which is common if abruptly placed or timed, it gets very repetitive. 9 out of 10 dentists don't recommend them. :P

A game that did them right though was God of War. Mostly because they weren't abrupt or punishing - and optional. If you nailed them, you got a little extra points and a cool finisher. If you failed, you could just kill them regularly with no penalty. Maybe something like that for the regular enemies (or the "adult" versions only since the original SR does basically nothing to really differentiate the two)...I could see Raziel tearing off a Zephonim's extra limbs to slow them enough so he could impale them...

@Gen: That's exceedingly cruel. Naturally, I love it. There could be various segments throughout the Cathedral where Zephon casts Raziel into a new illusion. Maybe some nightmare reimagining of his execution.

Heretic_13
1st Apr 2016, 16:35
@Ygdrasel

Imagine if Zephon created an illusion that made Raziel appear as his old self again, with his tattered wings appearing as a pair of capes; and showing Raziel his clan as they were when last saw them, in his clan territory. At the end, the illusion dissolving as Raziel enters a trophy room that is filled with the bones of his clan; and Raziel once again seeing his horrid form.

Oh my... And i thought i have problems

GenFeelGood
1st Apr 2016, 20:47
Oh my... And i thought i have problems

I am a twisted daydreamer after all.


@Ygradsel
I like that idea of Melchiah being able to disperse the corpses that make up his body into drones, as if his entire body is made up of ghouls that he controls.

What if Melchiah is able to make the ghoul spirits possess members of his clan instead of materializing so he can control them? That way we could have moments of dialogue and mini boss fights like we could with the Zephon.

I like the idea of having to evade Dumah's ghost whenever your in the spectral realm and going through his castle until you have brought him back from death so you can finally finish him. Throw in some moments of dialogue before the start of each chase and I'm excited.

Ygdrasel
4th Apr 2016, 04:36
I am a twisted daydreamer after all.


@Ygradsel
I like that idea of Melchiah being able to disperse the corpses that make up his body into drones, as if his entire body is made up of ghouls that he controls.

What if Melchiah is able to make the ghoul spirits possess members of his clan instead of materializing so he can control them? That way we could have moments of dialogue and mini boss fights like we could with the Zephon.

I like the idea of having to evade Dumah's ghost whenever your in the spectral realm and going through his castle until you have brought him back from death so you can finally finish him. Throw in some moments of dialogue before the start of each chase and I'm excited.

Huh. I never thought about it but wow, Dumah's ghost just hanging around the throne room really does make no sense...



Melchiah: Various ghouls (of various clans) could populate his territory. Maybe seeing the offspring of his brothers melded into these abominations triggers flashback-style memories in Raziel, offering non-essential tidbits of the Council's past.

Zephon: Traps Raziel in various hallucinations, Zephon speaking occasionally within them.

Rahab: Swims throughout the Abbey, watching Raziel from a safe distance and surfacing occasionally to spit a projectile or lunge for him while taunting him about his misinformed notions of Sarafan nobility (vaguely, so as to preserve their conversation at the end meeting).

Dumah: He hounds you in the spectral realm throughout the ruined city. (Though, what if one never enters it within the city? Is that doable?)

Heretic_13
4th Apr 2016, 11:04
Finally. You agreed to make changes to "original" "Soul Reaver" :)
Ye speaketh truth friends(or not friends- i don`t know what would you like me to be. Dead and/or buried- i presume). This "dragon wait for knight in his lair" style of crap gotta go. But you do realize we are talking about Soul Reaver reamake instead of completly new game? :D There was a thread about Soul Reaver reamake, but it seems to dried out
I put Zephon boss fight only as an example, because for some reason he was first to pop in my head when i thought about vampire i`d like to gruesomely kill :)
How about setting story about 300-500 years after Raziel and Kain traveled through time machine? Vampires are in full control of themselves again(still ugly as hell but at least sane. More or less. And powers back), start to rebulid thier kingdom, and humans dared by thier absence(after generals disappeard most went into hiding and tried to comprehend what happened) are repopulating Nosgoth. And we have another clash, and another war.
Why i`d like to do that? No matter how good will be remake- it`ll never be as good as original and many people will feel cheated. So instead let`s visit time that was never visited before, and see what our previous actions accomplished- it gives freedom to story teller, and risk of being impaled by fans is smaller.
Many people will scream: "i want prequel then". How about lore scattered here and there in old tomes and astral visions that would explain how Kain and Raziel set world straight?(and our favourite actors once more)
New war would give opportunity to new characters. I will always support idea of being able to stand on either side and choose you hero name and looks(it helps to identify with him/her). Or on many sides if game gave a choice between clans, and thier own fight over supremacy.
There could be new patriarchs- powerfull but different than thier original creators. After all thier dark gifts work differently, even if slightly. I`d use pagan gods images to create them
For example for Zephon descendant this hindu god image i mentioned earlier, but with 3-4 faces, molding together, constantly changing, showing different expressions and allowing him to see so much more- twist from pagan slavic gods :). Psychic powers of course. Dumah second in comand having this marriage of medieval Japan and Europe armour being part of his skin
Why not explore unused plots? Like vampie woreshippers? Imagine: you are vampire hunter, exploring vast underground cities lying under this gargantuan tower, that spirals to the heavens(:P), and you meet some primitive tribe, that gives bloody sacrifices to thier vampire gods. When they see you, ther run away- you are not only killing thier gods(how did he do that?), but also you are "from different planet" for them- as they never left Silenced Cathedral or it`s vicinity and all they know is slavery, and didn`t even know that there is otside world and outside humans.
Or every clan could have thier own way of enslaving humans. Melchahim could offer power to necromancers, but for a price of course. Zephonim- like above, Rahabim... i have no idea, help me :D, Dumahim- simple catch-and-relase-to-be-catch-and-killed, and Turelim- welcome in to feudal times
Why not explore other plot holes? Imagine using big vampire hunters force to reclaim Silenced Cathedral and trying to complete it afterwards. Or maybe doing... i shudder to use the word... "quests" to convince other anti-vampire grups- because you need thier help, and man power- that yours is the proper way to get rid of bloodsuckers- one grup is more about open war, other about mass destruction weapon, third is about finding weakness, and exploting it with agents and spies, fourth likes to play with magic, fifth has pretty (no need to go over the top)advanced technology
Finally visiting all vampires pauating states: Melchiahim in the earth, Zephonim in cocoon, Rahabim as well, Dumahim in metal coffins, some of thier slaves adding armour parts during paupating state, making it literally part of thier body, Turelim sleeping like bats, with feets hooked to the ceiling, Razielim as well(because you can never kill all of yours enemies- look a t me. Russians, Turks, Mongols, Germans, and so on, tried for over a 1000 years, and i still talk in polish:) )
Seeing vampires at thier worst- they are not only mindless blood sucking beasts, now they are inteligent blood sucking beasts :) and are trying to be more efficient
Sorry for long posts

GenFeelGood
4th Apr 2016, 16:37
@Heretic 13

Thats a perfect analogy for the boss fights in Soul Reaver.

The only problem is that these vampires can't simply get over the madness that afflicts them. By that time, the corruption that caused the madness seems so potent that even fledglings are denied any grace period before succumbing to it. The only ones that showed they still have some mental faculties were the wraiths; and that is just going off the one encounter with the talking Turelim.

Edit
@Ygdrasel, If I remember correctly you did need to phase to spectral in order to warp the surroundings so you could reach certain areas within Dumah's keep. Perhaps the map could be made so you could avoid phasing to the spectral; but make the place inhabited by either numerous Dumahim or some human faction so survival in the material realm is difficult, if you wish to avoid Dumah in the afterlife.

Ygdrasel
6th Apr 2016, 03:38
Finally. You agreed to make changes to "original" "Soul Reaver" :)

Nobody's against changes. They're just against your proposed changes that blatantly ignored the established facts of the lore and tried to rewrite and rearrange massive chunks of both the story and mechanics.

The vampires can't just be sane again. Their very souls are tainted with madness. They're too far gone for any war. Plus Raziel killed all the patriarchs while their clans were decimated. They couldn't have raised descendants. The only way for new ones to arise AND retain sanity is for Kain to raise a brand new cadre of lieutenants (unrelated to the first batch) after his own purification at the end of Defiance.


@Gen: It would make sense that humans may have resettled Dumah's city after overthrowing him...They should certainly populate it. And his city is (arguably) somewhat close to Malek's Bastion so they could have salvaged armor and everything too, make a real threat to Raziel.

Heretic_13
6th Apr 2016, 22:03
Then i will propose 4th timeline as setting for my story :D If Elder God is dead/banished/sealed/so weak he`ll never be able to threaten Nosgoth ever again- and he`ll gets his tentacles whooped in the Nosgoth past- for example time of Sarafan, or Kain will smack his younger self in the head and tell "wait a bit. I`ll deal with someone and yoo can try to dominate world", i think madness will never twist vampires. No?
After all kill/banishing/etc Elder God will not only erase him from the present or the future, but also from the past, as he is "now and always" and moves prettty freely through time.
Aaand... i have one "but". I vampires are beyond saving or returning, how do you explain Morlock? I assume, as there is no explenation how did he end up /like that, he is not only one "powerful" vampire in existence. Or we can even make up stuff. So let`s say this: Raziel killed his brothers, most of foot soliders are now insane and damaged beyond saving, but in every clan there is few of "Morlocks". For example they are favourite of thier creators, and so they were made "better". They wait `till time is right- until thier mad siblings die out- and start another vampire generation, without Kain or anybody outside interference
Something like that?

GenFeelGood
6th Apr 2016, 22:38
Removing the Elder God from Nosgoth's past would completely rewrite everything to the point where there might not have been a war between the ancients and hylden. Which means no Pillars, which means no guardians or blood curse, which means no Kain; and if there is no Kain then how does the Elder God keep being killed in the past? More than likely, Kain would destroy himself before ever coming close to killing the Elder God if he were to do it at any time that precedes the end of Soul Reaver when Raziel first entered the time stream chasing after Kain.

Morlock is the reason behind the hypothesis that turning into a wraith is how these vamps can escape or prevent succumbing to the madness, just like with Raziel.

Heretic_13
7th Apr 2016, 17:16
Just because Morlock(or Morlok??? Which sounds better? I always laughed at pronunciation of "Mordor" in "Lord of..." always souds like "Moredoor". In that case nearest IKEA will do Frodo :D and of course More-Lock XD... or Morlok) was wraith at some point, it doesn`t mean that saved him.... If you walk through tunel leading to Sarafan Tomb, you may euncounter Dumahim that was wraith. Or ther are Melchiahim...s(? plural?) that were wraiths and still they are insane... or don`t like to talk with us. There is no proof behind this claim i`m afraid- it`s theory. Just as my statement that there are powerfull vampires in clans able to somewhat resist thier madness- it is also theory, and nothing more. I can put here theory that Elder God was once mix of Vampire and Hylden and he "just" evolved in to god, and then put load of double(or even triple) sided "evidence" behind it
Dumah wasn`t able to resist his devolution, even though he was in Underworld for quite some time(corpses of his children managed to rot in meantime). So i don`t think being a wraith has anything to do with resisting curse
Anyway- it is not important. What is: i`d like story set in Nosgoth, but, and let`s be honest here, Kain and Raziel don`t have much to do anyway, anymore. Kain has to beat the hell out of Squiddy and set his younger self straight- it hardly deserves another game. More like DLC to Defiance would do :) after all it supposed to be like that in Defiance(check Lost World for further informations)
So i think- new story, new characters, ability to choose- like in every proper RPG, or action game with RPG elements :P
And enough digging in the past... I want world that nothing was written for... yet. It makes me somewhat angry that we(as in players killing each other in Nosgoth) can`t really do anything significant. Nothing we do will change outcome. It`s... sad

Ygdrasel
7th Apr 2016, 21:02
Trivia time: "Morlock" is the name used for that Sarafan Tomb guardian in the game code. He is never given an official name. Personally, I sometimes call him Larry. And 'morlock' as a name is homage to a race of monstrous subterranean creatures from an old sci-fi story.


Kain and Raziel don`t have much to do anyway, anymore.

You think Kain doesn't have much left to do? That's cute. He still has to:

- Replace the Reaver in Avernus
- Free Janos Audron
- Destroy the Elder God
- Destroy (or rehabilitate) the Hylden

- Restore the Pillars
- Return the Pillars to vampiric rule
- Break the blood curse so vampire guardians can resume being born - Or else establish diplomatic vampire-human relations so the vampirism can be passed down when necessary without risk of a new revolt.

--If he so chooses, he could trade restoring/ruling the Pillars for finding a way to uncouple the Pillars from Nosgoth, terminating their magical grip upon the world and eliminating any need for Guardians at all. If the Hylden ere ever truly destroyed or re-integrated into society, the Pillars themselves wouldn't be needed anymore.-- But he would still need to break the blood curse so vampires could breed naturally again and be free of bloodthirst.

---After breaking the blood curse, he would presumably need to raise a few female vampires so that he and Janos could pair with them and begin the repopulation of an uncorrupted vampire species.---

That's two, possibly three games of material. But when Kain is done, there's plenty of other material for stories beyond him -- That's where new things can come in. People've been wanting a Vorador-centric title since Blood Omen.



Then i will propose 4th timeline as setting for my story :D If Elder God is dead/banished/sealed/so weak he`ll never be able to threaten Nosgoth ever again- and he`ll gets his tentacles whooped in the Nosgoth past- for example time of Sarafan, or Kain will smack his younger self in the head and tell "wait a bit. I`ll deal with someone and yoo can try to dominate world", i think madness will never twist vampires. No?
After all kill/banishing/etc Elder God will not only erase him from the present or the future, but also from the past, as he is "now and always" and moves prettty freely through time.

The Elder God cannot be erased from history. Kain explains to Raziel that in the event of a paradox, the timeline shuffles itself around the paradox --- But if the paradox is too great, the timestream will take the simplest path and just eject the paradox itself.

The EG has hands in major events throughout history. Killing him far in the past would create so many holes in history that it would be simpler to just terminate the paradox - in this case, Kain. If the EG is to be eradicated, it would have to be sometime around the SR era or later where he has no great hold on history.

As for Morlock, a theory stands that time in the spectral realm will have slowed the onset of madness (presumably as time itself is frozen there). Also, as a wraith, Morlock would have consumed many souls of all sorts of creatures which may even serve to further slow the onset of the madness - because these other souls are not corrupted in the same way as his.

"But the revived Dumahim and Melchahim..." - Are all quite mad, yes. But consider Morlock's position: He was given a specialized guard duty by Kain himself, centuries prior to Raziel's return. Who knows how long he thrived in the spectral realm, building his power, before being revived for this - And considering that he was very likely revived personally by Kain for this task, his revival was probably done in Kain's standard way: Breathing a bit of his soul into a corpse. So in all likelihood, Morlock's got his standard Turelim soul melded with an extra portion of Kain's. Add to that whatever strength he gained from the spectral side and you've got a creature powerful enough to stave off the madness a bit. So yes, he might be "special" but he'd be the only one because no more were needed for the job.


"But Dumah..." - Is still very much in control of his higher mental faculties when Raziel revives him. He speaks and everything. He remembers everything. Heavily supports the "powerful wraiths can withstand the madness longer" theory. And even Dumah's physical devolution was halted - Had he not been killed by Sarafan, he would look much worse.

So as much as you would like to condescend about it, there is some pretty solid evidence to support it if not proof. And it's also worth noting that he isn't immune to mental decay. It's just taking him much more slowly. I mean, he's still essentially a frothing guard dog when Raziel shows up - just one that can talk.

Besides all of that, recall that Morlock is the only non-feral vampire Raziel witnesses (lieutenants aside). He is also the only one with any established purpose. Morlock is utterly devoted to his charge as the Tomb's guardian. A focused mind is a strengthened mind. A meandering mind (as of the feral scavengers typically encountered) crumbles. So if wraiths being more resistant or Morlock having an extra dosage of Kain's soul aren't suitable possibilities for you, just assume he held out longer because he actually had something to hold onto. (This works for Dumah too. He spends his time in limbo developing new powers and becomes intent on being greater even than Kain. Focus. Purpose.)


Okay, you want new characters, scrap all the time-travel stuff that's utterly entwined with the plotline since Blood Omen ("enough digging in the past"), a world where all previous written stuff is wiped clear ("I want world that nothing was written for")...It really sounds like what you want is a different series. Or maybe Dead Sun.

Heretic_13
8th Apr 2016, 18:17
It doesn`t matter anymore what i want, it seems... God **** damn it

Ygdrasel
10th Apr 2016, 02:32
Been combing through Dead Sun and Blood Omen material. A big continuity fault in Dead Sun was the spectral realm - instead of being, well, the spectral realm, they made it this slight shift into the past. A valid mechanic, could make for interesting puzzles...But that isn't the spectral realm.

But it could still be used:

Moebius died permanently at Defiance's end. So what if we have a game featuring his replacement? It would immediately explain an ability to shift somewhat in time at will like that (essentially, it's not the spectral realm he's shifting into at all - he's dipping into the timestream) - and with Kain meeting and guiding him, he could have been the first step toward restoring the Pillar's true stewards.

Say Kain decides to turn a new batch of vampires. But not for conquest this time - this time, he's got to think about the endgame, bringing the two species (humans and vampires) back into co-existence so that, even if he can't break the blood curse, he can re-instate the passing of the dark gift and shift the Pillars back to vampire rule. Which means he can't just raid any old tomb for corpses: He has to find the latest Guardians and turn them.

So he eventually meets Moebius' replacement (for convenience, I'll call him Marlin) and probably knows it, probably gets really snarky about the whole thing. Start of the game could be Marlin's been trying to dig into his forfeit destiny as a Guardian and this has led him to Kain's mountain retreat - where Kain has been cleverly trapped by the EG's machinations and must be let free. After a brief battle, the would-be Guardian is subdued and given some cryptic lecture or something to sway him to Kain's side, to learn of the real enemy.

And from there he begins to learn about Kain's big plan and must, despite thorny relations. aid him in tracking down and converting the other Guardian replacements. ("But new Guardians were never born on account of the corruption!" - Bunk, I say! Kain was born when Ariel died despite the Pillars' instantaneous corruption. I submit that replacements WERE born, they were just never brought into service - they lived and died unaware of their roles and unbonded to the Pillars' magic, and numerous replacements have occurred since. Essentially, the Circle remains broken not for lack of existing Guardians but for neglect of service.)

This concept could merge well with the idea of Kain having previously tried to raise new clan patriarchs (out of spite toward the EG rather than any real plan) only to have the EG corrupt them. This portion of the story could be told in cutscene as a tale elaborated by Kain after their brief duel, the betrayal of his latest children being what drove him back up into his retreat in the first place. And then said traitorous children could serve as bosses throughout the game, agents of the Elder God sent to impede Kain and company's quest to restore the Circle.

End result of it all being that the Pillars are back in vampire rule and the EG serves as final boss.

GenFeelGood
10th Apr 2016, 03:13
@Ygdrasel
It'd be interesting if Kain created a new vampiric empire, this time with the new Guardians being the lieutenants with their own territory and vampire clans. The MAD threat would be insane. For the humans to wage war with the vamps and for the vamps to wage war with each other would be to risk the destruction of Nosgoth itself. Perhaps the vamps of each clan could develop abilities in line with what Pillar their lieutenant belongs to, then we might have vamps like the one from Dead Sun.

Heretic_13
11th Apr 2016, 09:25
I always wondered: would elimination of Elder God change that much? Granted, he is mastermind(however silly it sounds) behind Ancient-Hylden War, but would his absence changed history so dramatically? Kain pointed that history rewrites itself and adjusts to changes very quickly and does so with minimal effort- "like a river".
There is a great quote of Janos Audron(probably paraphrase of somone else, but it`s still great), about humans: that we fear what we don`t understand, and we hate what we fear. And there is plain, "good o`le" desire to kill, rape, pillage, torture. It was, is, and always will be present in humans(and other intelligent races), so maybe Great War "only" would change it`s nature- from religious to more prosaic reasons.
And it is possible that bad people are in about the same proportion in Ancient Vampires and Hylden society. I dare say that in Ancient ranks there was just as much xenophobia and desire of conflict as in other two races- just because somone is "wise", dosen`t mean they are "smart".
Then it wouldn`t change all that much- and Dark Gifts could be "invented" by necromancers afterall

GenFeelGood
16th Apr 2016, 03:29
I recently recieved a refund for my rune purchase back in March. I guess that means Nosgoth really is over. It's such a shame that this is happening.

The question now is what will become of the lore and assets. I think the lore deserves to be counted and I don't really want the assets to get recorded in just another gallery of failed LoK games.

If there is ever another LoK game, I'd like it to be put to use. Utilize them in a Soul Reaver remake or perhaps something else involved in the era. A human focused game could be acceptable.

Imagine a post Soul Reaver era game that centers on a human campaign to finally wipe out the vampires in the face of a newly restructured vampiric empire, commanded by the wraiths that have seized control of the leaderless clans that have turned to madness. Model it after Dark Souls, only make the story far more prevalent with cinematics and dialogue.

Ygdrasel
16th Apr 2016, 23:58
@Ygdrasel
It'd be interesting if Kain created a new vampiric empire, this time with the new Guardians being the lieutenants with their own territory and vampire clans. The MAD threat would be insane. For the humans to wage war with the vamps and for the vamps to wage war with each other would be to risk the destruction of Nosgoth itself. Perhaps the vamps of each clan could develop abilities in line with what Pillar their lieutenant belongs to, then we might have vamps like the one from Dead Sun.

MAD? And yeah, the eventual end result would be a Council composed of vampire Guardians, exactly.

Having their powers evolve according to their Pillar would be very interesting. I've always presumed that vampire biology operated that way, their gifts developing via assimilation of pre-existing magic. Much how all of Kain's gifts were born of absorbing magical energies throughout Blood Omen, their gifts would be born of steadily incorporating Pillar magic into their natural evolutions.

It's all just a theory, mind, but all the lieutenants' gifts are roughly derivative of the original spells Kain absorbed so...

And I've always said Nosgoth's assets and lore are deserving of a proper game. They could have the same era and background even, the same war...Just with a proper storyline. Your idea's interesting...But what wraiths? Are all the vamps going to be revived sorts?


It seems unlikely the empire would restructure effectively with all their leaders gone post-SR. Maybe in Nosgoth's era - roughly speaking, any time between Raziel's death and return - the lieutenants restructure in light of Kain's absence though.

Or sometime around the beginning of Kain's empire, Raziel still serving, and his clan still beautiful but wingless (or just starting to develop them, so maybe some bone outcrops that will become wings in time - basically just modify the evolved Sentinel somewhat). The evolved vamps could all still appear, who's to say they only started to show after Raziel's death. Vampires do evolve over vast time periods, after all, their midpoints could have endured for centuries. Could explore the beginnings of blood farms, humans being abducted, maybe the beginnings of the Smokestack...That'd be an intriguing time to see and Nosgoth's factions and lore could be incorporated with a few alterations. And it's the perfect point for humans to wage a war. Just cut out the feral lot, have Nosgoth's basic versions as the 'fledgling', evolved (and stronger) as 'adult'.

Dark Souls gameplay would be an intriguing model (not 100%, but like combat and such - every enemy in DS is basically a puzzle in itself, dark atmosphere, epic bosses...Maybe not such excruciatingly unforgiving difficulty though. XD

@Heretic: Eliminating the Elder God would have two potential outcomes:

1) If killed in the SR era or later, he'd be dead. No change to previous events but he couldn't cause any more trouble.
2) If killed in a past era where his death would drastically alter various eras, Kain would die and the Elder God would not.

Nosgoth's timestream operates thusly: If a paradox occurs, the timestream shifts to birth a new timeline. If a MASSIVE paradox (like sudden non-existence of an entity with major roles and implications throughout all of history) occurs, the timestream takes the simpler route and just reshuffles in such a way as to erase the source of the paradox - in this case, the EG's would-be killer, Kain. It is very much a river: It can flow around most obstructions...But larger ones, it meets resistance, builds up force and ultimately washes them away outright.

Heretic_13
17th Apr 2016, 18:23
I can make theories and dream Ygdrasel. We can argue the point- like "if Elder is all knowing, then he would know about his downfall and do something about it... He is after all beyond Destiny", then someone would argue about Raziel and Kain being also beyond Destiny, since they are both even "deader" than any vampire ever was, so Elder knows **** about his future. I think it would not give any conclusion to this little discussion

As for what i wanted to say earlier, but of course lost myself in my own explenations, it was said by GeenFeelGood :)
Post Soul Reaver era would be great. I`d love to see a world that dies only to be reborn again and reshaped by main character(s). And even though i said it before, i`ll say it again :) : we should be able to choose sides. Either being a vampire or human. But it is too simplified for my taste- life is simple, but then we all create bunch of stupid excuses and look for a roads that aren`t really easier. It is only example of that kind of behaviour, not realted to LOK games: "i love her, should i tell her? No, it would only be a burden to her. Better to stay quiet, and let it wither and die...". Easy to see this guy didn`t choose easy, or painless, way :) But thats the way we are

I am backing up anyone who supports idea of being able to change your way half way through a game. Example: you are human, hunting vampires, you fight because you belive that our race should rule. That we are inherently good in nature. Then you are on a mission(ugh... okay, you don`t have quests, but you had particular goal in mind. Artifact, armor, information, etc.) and euncounter vampire hunters killing and raping, and burning everyone near some slave pen on the outskirts of vampire territorry, no matter who they are. There are people asking for mercy, and don`y recive it. And you see that this animals aren`t what you really want to protect or being allied with. Or there is some male/female vampire(depending of your character orientation and sex)... romance thingy, why not? Not the mushy kind(any reference to Twilight will meet with my hostility). Hard and forbidden. With both people involved questioning it`s nature. I don`t know why, but only thing that comes to my head as a example is Ygritte and Jon Snow from "Game of Thrones"(stupid show by the way). My little revenge :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtoBFXSvD6Y
Or your character starts envying them. Or he sees them as true human beings, what our race should be. They are almost free from wordly desires(well, apart from hunger of course) and can pursuit whatever discipline they want- art, philosophy, medicine, science, whatever.
Or you start as vampire. You feel like god. Like lion amongs sheeps- this is a quote, but i don`t know where form. You are loyal to your Clan in a way, that makes human envy of your determination and clear mind. And then, ona a hunt, you see how human family interacts. Someone sacrifice him/herself for someone else. That there are lots of emotions that you were robbed of. That mortality and being able to forget can be a blessing.

Choices, choices, choices. Thing that made "Dishonored" better game, then it would be if it was another "Thief" like thing. How hard was it for me to slit a guard throat, when i heard Heart(if you don`t know the game i am talking about, look it up. It`s lots of fun) stating, that this guy, ugly, rowdy thug by mistake serving in something akin to police, found once turtle on a beach and was nursing it back to health? That guy is a brute, but he has someone he loves? I had really tough time going through this game :) because i hardly killed anyone and instead behave like tree hugger(choke hold, you can eliminate guy without killing him)

And of course that dosen`t really stop anybody from ending a game in a "normal fashion"- start as vampire, end on vampire side. Start as human, end on human side

P.S.
We once had a bit of a argument, somwhere, about Wraith Blade- how it should look and how it should be handled
Most people seemd to favour this Pata or Katar type of thing, that we know from first 2 Soul Reavers
I on the other hand, as always :D, were leaning more toward Defiance look and grip
Why? This gut will explain if you are willing to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7niTpIW7dEk

GenFeelGood
17th Apr 2016, 20:16
M.A.D, Mutually Assured Destruction

Perhaps instead of a restructured empire, the opposition could be a horde. With the lieutenants dead (or gone in the case of Turel) and the madness taking its toll, the clans are no longer contained within their territory and have scattered throughout Nosgoth like the Dumahim were in Soul Reaver.

Perhaps the human factions became divided by their defeat during the uprising and part of your mission is to bring them back into the fight, journeying through their territories and earning their allegiance. With each faction you gain you are able to call upon a companion from their ranks for assistance in dealing with the horde and boss fights.

The same could be possible with wraiths that long ago disowned these mad vampires as their brethren and want them eliminated before they wipe out the food supply. There could be both fledgling and evolved wraiths, that is one way we could see Nosgoth's vampire skins once again

The clan territories could serve as the sources of where the vamps replenish their numbers; and as such, the targets of your campaign. Within each of these territories could exist a mechanism for purging it of its vamps. The Silenced Cathedral's purge mechanism is obvious. The Crucible's could involve causing an eruption that covers the whole area in lava, Pompeii that whole area. The Drowned Abbey's could involve breaking levees that empty it, exposing most of the Rahabim to the sun and trapping those that are inside the buildings that will be finished off by devices like what killed Rahab. The Necropolis could involve herding them into the newly reactivated grinders like the one that claimed Melchiah. The immortal forges could be used to channel flames throughout the ruined city of the Dumahim. Would we want the Razielim to have survived to this point?

Imagine earning the allegiance of the Watchers and then being able to call upon a Scout that decloaks behind you; or the Scourge and calling upon a Beastmaster than Swoop lands in front of you.

Perhaps the madness has little to no grace period before it takes hold of the minds by this time; but the evolution and devolution would still take time to happen. The fledgling forms from Nosgoth could be used with just a simple change of waredrobe.

With the devolution, how about going one step further and making them resemble their lieutenants(scaled down of course), with the Dumahim looking like Dumah would have been if he hadn't been killed and turned wraith.

So we'd have mad fledglings, evolved, devolved, abominations, and wraiths from each of those stages that still see the vampires as brethren from five vampire clans for you to go up against, as well as any humans from the six human factions that want you dead. That is a minimum of 52 different enemies, more than enough variety for a game modeled after Dark Souls.

Ygdrasel
17th Apr 2016, 23:51
I can make theories and dream Ygdrasel. We can argue the point

What are you talking about? There is no point to argue here. That's how Nosgoth's timestream works, those are the options.

Dishonored was a good game because all parts of it joined to elevate the sum. Shoehorning in morality paths would not elevate LoK because actual morality is not black/white, it's gray. If the series needs some player-based moral aspect, it should go the Witcher route and have it all murky with delayed consequences, no clear-cut hamfisted "a hunter saw his pal raping somebody so he thinks they're bad now" dreck with instantaneous results (like...Well, every other game with a moral system).

Now, if the story had some vampire hunter growing to doubt the sadistic fervor of his comrades and steadily learning more of the truth of things (how the vampires are the intended Guardians and all the manipulated horrors on the human end), building to a climax of some kind...Sure. But that's not a player-defined morality branch, just a linear story/character development.


Now, as for choices: Absolutely. Various paths through a level, various kill methods (even non-fatal should one please). All of that could work. Though logistically, a vampire would have to feed so some mechanic would be needed for non-fatal feeding (like how Raziel can "sip" human souls in SR). Incapacitate, then prick open a vein for a quick drink, leave them dazed but alive. Choice is good.


@Gen: Why would wraiths help humans when that entails revealing weapons that could purge entire vampire territories? Better to just populate the territories with saner groups alongside the ferals if we're including both populations. The more sane lot can still compete against the ferals, it'd make for potential infighting to be exploited. Then you've got feral enemies and default Nosgoth types all together - united in general but capable of falling to fighting internally. Maybe the evolved type only appear in later areas or they could just be sprinkled amongst the general clan populations.

If there were a time system added, you could even have the regular types evolve after a certain point - maybe you even come upon a pupation area and torch some cocoons, only to have some evolved Zephonim emerge to fight you back.


Systematically cleansing the territories is a great concept though. As is gaining each human faction's aid. As for Beastmasters, I think it'd be amiss not to incorporate their twisted true origins in some way. Maybe when you hit their territory, Dark Eden's corruption has taken heavy hold and warped them. Gaining the faction's aid would entail a quest to somehow cleanse the madness while retaining their powers, perhaps.

And having some vampires appear like scaled-down versions of lieutenants could be interesting but it should be more sparingly done, maybe mini-boss type things or advanced enemies appearing more often the closer you get to reaching the purge weapons. One thing I've always wanted to see is Melchahim with various forms of flesh-crafting done. So you get some who've added extra limbs or shaped their forearms into pointed weaponry, maybe incorporated extra hearts (which would require all of them be dealt with to kill it)...

Advanced Zephonim could be spidery like in SR but with Zephon's splittable face and eggsacs from which they birth more (lesser) Zephonim if not killed quickly enough...

Advanced Dumahim could be mini-juggernauts that have to be lured into fire (unless one has a fire weapon on hand) to be damaged/killed.

The Turelim version could be hulking creatures somewhere between SR's bipedals and Turel's quadriped state, requiring sound (via weapon or environment) to hurt them...

Rahabim...At a loss. But of course, with each vamp territory purged, humans should resettle the region. Keeps it lively.

GenFeelGood
20th Apr 2016, 15:24
Each human faction should come with it's own unique trials to overcome before you receive their allegiance.

Curing the Scourge of what plagues it while learning the truth about their origin would be perfect. Enduring the blood rituals of the Seers could be cool. Acquiring lost treasures for the Drowning Men sounds like a fit. Assassinating high ranking Wraiths for the Watchers sounds like fun. Purging vampire infested settlements for the Ironguard sounds appropriate. Destroying vampire nests that are beyond the clan territories for the Red Sisters sounds fun.

When it comes to choice, perhaps you can be torn between factions, having to choose sides as areas are freed up for expansion and the question of who has claim arises.

It would probably be just as you put it, with their being a hierarchy within the clans. Resulting in the lower casts being in the outer perimeter and the higher ones residing within, it getting harder the deeper in you get.

With Rahabim abominations, they could have no legs like Rahab and instead slither on the ground like a snake.

Thought of a different way to eliminate the Melchahim. Given that they have the weakest resistance to the madness, perhaps the feral ones are so driven by instinct that they attack anything that has the scent of non-vampiric blood; and being known as blood manipulators, they may have huge stores of blood that is preserved for future consumption. Picture these blood stores exploding, with the area and all within it being flooded by the blood. Then as soon as the vampires get back on their feet they sense the blood on one another and tear each other apart. The vamps would significantly outnumber the wraiths, so there would no way for the wraiths to stop or even escape the massacre.

Heretic_13
20th Apr 2016, 23:29
Then as soon as the vampires get back on their feet they sense the blood on one another and tear each other apart. The vamps would significantly outnumber the wraiths, so there would no way for the wraiths to stop or even escape the massacre.

You are getting creative when it comes to killing someone XD

Anyway- Ygdrasel. I didn`t mean my "180 degree" turn to be like that, and you know it. You just like to point things that i didn`t cover :P Stop that please. I meant- one player would change sides after one display of barbarism, other would think about it only after seeing sexy vampire that energies his base :P, nevermind that he spent 25 hours completing different missions for his grup, and saw different faces of cruelty. Or he could be on the top of his clan, and then undergo his crysis of fate. Like Vampirism Cure in Morrowind- tools are always there but when and how you use them is entirely up to you

And the other thing i`d like to ask. Should our human groups be the same as we have in Nosgoth? Frankly they are interesting, but... Why should we have Vanguard? Reformed Neo-Sarafan order in thier place could be fun. And in this type of adventuring game people like Scouts, Vanguard, and Ironguard could be practically part of one faction- bear with me i`ll explain my way of thinking. From the top of my head(i`m talking to You Ygdrasel) i don`t say they HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT, just random 4 grups(getting late and i don`t want to think too hard about something that will be shot down anyway):

1.Soliders/Vampire Hunter/Insert-Your-Namers- most common, most respected by common men. Big friggin` army of well equipped killers. You have them walking walls in every major settelment, they raid slave pens on regular basis, they have whole bunch of fun weapons and armors. Again from the top of my head- few classes within thier grup. Scout- light weight armor, so he can move quickly and quietly, avoiding big battles, he relies on stealth and his/hers wits. Maybe grappliung hook. Maybe some claws for climbing the wals. Good for eliminating special targets. Armed with precission crossbow with magnifiers and combat knife

Hunter- regular solider, middle weight armor, armed with repeating crossbow(could be few types- more bolts, less blots, heavier, but more fire power and so on) with bayonet and combat knife. Team player, great at taking positions and holding them. They are doing pretty well in fiding cover and manouvering like our world today soliders
I`ll skip the "combat knife" thing from now on- just every group has some fall-back weapon for melee

Assault hunter- all like above, but with six shooting long, revolver musket(in contrary to crossbow can missfire, and is not that precise, but bullets are harder to dodge and to dig out, and they are soft lead, so they change internal organs in to a pulp when penetrating body). Guy that mainly hold forts, and takes care of defending strategic posidtions. Main difference- if he wants to, he can carry a tower shield(breaks after some beating). Plant it and enjoy cover, while providing support to rest of attacking Hunters

Heavy Hunter(Arsonist, Insert your Name)- heavy armor, thus he can take quite a beating. He goes first in to the fray, in first line. Kicks the door in, and light vampires on fire with his primitive flamethrower. Drawbacks- he pretty slow on his feet- so he is the first theu get to in the retreat, and flamethrower has small range(20-30 meters) + naphta on his back can explode if attacked directly

Officer- guy with a cutlass or a dussack, combat kinfe and some weapon- that depends on his rank- like capitans have flintlock revolver, majors have something that goes boom(6 granades?), and colonels have short mace(symbol of thier rank, but is blunt weapon as well)

They have also all sorts of explosives and incendiary things(granades, naphta bottles). Some of them short, rest middle to long distance

2. Another group- Mystics. People don`t know what to think about them, because they are pretty mysterious. They are mainly interested in gathering artifacts of old times and using them as weapons. In here you`d have, i don`t know:
Monk- 2-3 different basic, magical attacks + some pole arm(partizan, glawie, halebard) and a sacrafical knife
Priest- guy completly focused on using magic with only some small blade as a fall back weapon. They could use thier power to slow time some, or widen thier perception(same thing when it comes to effect in game) so they could dodge better. Pretty well trained in melee, but still good in a middle distance

3.Another grup- Engineers. Treated by some as cowards, but very important group, because they rely on thier technology, and they are always on the hunt for scraps of old documents, plans, lore. For example they uncovered some thruths about Hylden glyph energy and they harvesting it to move heavy, big tank-like-train-like machines (for reference Blood Omen 2) and power human major cities(heat and water and stuff). They have pretty interesting toy- Gatling-like guns on thier carts, mortars, cannons and so on. They seek thier world "atom bomb"- something that can kill lots of vampires at once. Middle to short distance and best fire power there is, they carry some blades but not to good in melee

4. Another group- Knights. Something like Sarafan, but not as fanatical, just focused on melee and hand to hand combat. Armor is something akin to a full plate, but "more modern"- for example dosn`t require mail, and is almost like second skin, so dosen`t hsmper movement that much(plate armor dosen`t really slow movement much, but i mean, "my armour" is even lighter). Two types: Skirmisher. Lighter armor(with a shoulder cape) sidesword, buckler, and a dagger, more of a duelist, good at attacking enemy "officers", and heavy armoured Jaggernaut with greatsword and dagger that can wipe out enemy unit alone and is pretty impervious to bullets, bolts, claws, blades and javellins- they have to knock him down, wrestle, find a gap in plates and stick a knife in it to hurt him

Depending on when would you like to start, you`d have different types of approach to certian problems, different methods in achiving goals- if you`d have Vanguard and Scourge, you`d have basically the same- skils are different, but idea that you go and **** vampires up with some simple weapon is frankly the same- and different groups would have different opinion about you- for example as a Hunter you`d be on good terms with Engineers- as they often help in safe transporting the troops, they design your weapons, but your group think of Knights and Mystics as stuck up ****holes, and laugh at thier ineffective ways. As Knight on the other hand you`d look down on "mere cannon fodder" that relies more on new weapons than pure skill
As i said i just pulled them out now, so i don`t even know if i would like them like that or not

GenFeelGood
22nd Apr 2016, 03:54
It is possible that some human factions could have been been absorbed into another by now. The Red Sisters and Ironguard could have come together after withdrawing into the Citadel; and the Scourge and Watchers could have come together after retreating back into Dark Eden.

What if the character we play was a victim of the horde and was ressurected by the Elder God? Whenever we die the Elder God brings us back to life at a set location like it did for Mobius. This way we have a ressurection mechanic like what is in Dark Souls.

What if at some point (probably after the Zephonim if we are going in the order from Soul Reaver) we come across Kain, newly arrived through the time stream to finish his work? Kain offers to make you one of the first of the new generation of properly made vampires, retaining all of who you are and without a trace of the corruption. You decide whether to finish the purge as a man or become a vampire. Staying human means you retain your alliances with the factions and everything it affords you. If you become a vampire your stats jump by a huge margin but you are on your own from that point forward and have now become a target for every human you come across. The Elder God also disowns you from that point forward and your resurrection is now possible through your dark gift carrying you away when you're on the brink of death, like Kain's bat form in Defiance.

Heretic_13
23rd Apr 2016, 14:25
It is possible that some human factions could have been been absorbed into another by now. The Red Sisters and Ironguard could have come together after withdrawing into the Citadel; and the Scourge and Watchers could have come together after retreating back into Dark Eden.

What if the character we play was a victim of the horde and was ressurected by the Elder God? Whenever we die the Elder God brings us back to life at a set location like it did for Mobius. This way we have a ressurection mechanic like what is in Dark Souls.

What if at some point (probably after the Zephonim if we are going in the order from Soul Reaver) we come across Kain, newly arrived through the time stream to finish his work? Kain offers to make you one of the first of the new generation of properly made vampires, retaining all of who you are and without a trace of the corruption. You decide whether to finish the purge as a man or become a vampire. Staying human means you retain your alliances with the factions and everything it affords you. If you become a vampire your stats jump by a huge margin but you are on your own from that point forward and have now become a target for every human you come across. The Elder God also disowns you from that point forward and your resurrection is now possible through your dark gift carrying you away when you're on the brink of death, like Kain's bat form in Defiance.

Something like that would be fun- i had little issue with my idea of swaping sides- i mean what would it look like gameplay-wise? Would we change sides whenever we could or would it be one time only? And if so, how would it look like? Kain-solution is very good, as we could get to be proper vampire, not some "watered down child of second cousin"(if yer know what i mean).

One thing: I whined many times about this resurrection stuff, i explained why it angers me so i only say "no" to this one thing. If we were voting, i mean :P

And if i were to be human, after doing some pretty significant things for the cause i`d like to be able to command small unit- not always, but if i have to go to some vampire fort or something, i`d like to be able to get some people to watch my back, or at least do enough damage and noise, so i can sneak in more easly. It`s, of course, not obligatory- if i am, say, a scout, i can sneak in pretty well on my own. But if i am a hunter and not so good at that, what about small group of engeeners protected by other hunters, doing a little show with mortars at the front gate, while i try to steal/kill/abduct?

Ygdrasel
25th Apr 2016, 08:03
Each human faction should come with it's own unique trials to overcome before you receive their allegiance.

Curing the Scourge of what plagues it while learning the truth about their origin would be perfect. Enduring the blood rituals of the Seers could be cool. Acquiring lost treasures for the Drowning Men sounds like a fit. Assassinating high ranking Wraiths for the Watchers sounds like fun. Purging vampire infested settlements for the Ironguard sounds appropriate. Destroying vampire nests that are beyond the clan territories for the Red Sisters sounds fun.

When it comes to choice, perhaps you can be torn between factions, having to choose sides as areas are freed up for expansion and the question of who has claim arises.

It would probably be just as you put it, with their being a hierarchy within the clans. Resulting in the lower casts being in the outer perimeter and the higher ones residing within, it getting harder the deeper in you get.

With Rahabim abominations, they could have no legs like Rahab and instead slither on the ground like a snake.

Thought of a different way to eliminate the Melchahim. Given that they have the weakest resistance to the madness, perhaps the feral ones are so driven by instinct that they attack anything that has the scent of non-vampiric blood; and being known as blood manipulators, they may have huge stores of blood that is preserved for future consumption. Picture these blood stores exploding, with the area and all within it being flooded by the blood. Then as soon as the vampires get back on their feet they sense the blood on one another and tear each other apart. The vamps would significantly outnumber the wraiths, so there would no way for the wraiths to stop or even escape the massacre.

Sounds great. Quests for every faction, allegiances to be decided...Maybe benefits varying by said allegiance.

Though on the note of the Melchahim having the weakest resistance to the madness: Given that they have the least portion of Kain's corrupted soul (the source of said madness), wouldn't they display a GREATER resistance to madness? Their flesh only rots for want of more soul to keep it anchored to life, not a higher rate of madness.

Plus, gruesomely awesome as it is, all the ferals still survive that scenario. Given the Melchahim's tenuous grasp upon material existence, perhaps the purge could involve prying them away from the flesh somehow -- Maybe one of Malek's soul machines (or the technology thereof) could have been a part of the spectral experiments of the clan, stolen and hidden away only to be discovered and turned against them. Or their blood stores could be tainted with black blood and unleashed as a kill-on-contact flood against the whole lot.

Still not into this "horde" idea. Vampires shouldn't be fighting off a horde of their own kind. Not sure why they can't just fight the uprising humans. And really, I don't see the stronger, saner, smarter caste allowing ferals to propagate enough to become a "horde". (Also, wouldn't Kain be back after Melchiah if we go by Soul Reaver? Raziel fights Kain after gaining Melchiah's gift.)

The choice of human or vampire is an interesting one, you could gain some dark gifts at the cost of all that human wrath and the standard vamp weaknesses (and maybe a degenerative gift of your very own~)...And it would make for the first game since Blood Omen to have multiple endings - either one each for vamp/human, or even one for each faction chosen in the end (sort of how Fallout endings do).

Though - if one went vampire - would they have to choose an allegiance between the clans like they did with human factions? That'd add to the possible endings if the Fallout style route was taken. Replay value aplenty though, seriously. Each faction/clan offering different skills, detriments, endings...My god.


But let's say they turn down Kain's offer: What stops him just turning them into a meal? He doesn't seem the type to just shrug it away. He'd off them for his wasted time, probably. I'd say instead, maybe have the player killed at some point mid-game by the returned (and furious at his children being slaughtered by one upstart human) Kain and offered the choice by a repentant Mortanius (which also allows a return to that Underworld never seen since BO - and a return to his full-on death mask look ala BO, or at least another interpretation of it): If they join the vamps, they serve Kain's ongoing goal of balance. If they stay human, they still serve balance by clearing away corrupted life like Kain's degenerate spawn. Kind of win-win for ol' Morty.

This would also better serve the idea of 'joining clans'. If you're raised by Kain, you just evolve down some new path dictated by his vampire soul portion, essentially the first of a whole new clan. Raised magically by the non-vampiric Morty, maybe the evolution is a little more finicky (Kain's own changes were largely an act of supernatural will to reflect his kingly ideal of himself, little guided by natural evolution), requiring some infusion of powerful blood [from a clan elder of your choosing] to get things going in a concrete direction..."But Morty's dead by this era" - Let's say the Kain battle occurs in the Chronoplast (since he'd be returning from time-streaming anyway) and he tackles you through the portal, conveniently set to the BO era where Kain was doing who knows what. You return to SR/Nosgoth era after the big choice.

And about factions merging into each other: In SR, you can see a hunter with a flamethrower in the Silenced Cathedral. So surely a bit of shared tech. It'd kind of kill the variety to have any of them outright merging though, and leave less opportunity to explore if they shared territories...

@Heretic: I'm just going to not bother with anything you post that you've failed to make readable. It is not that difficult. That said, your last post was readable so: Small factions to command, RTS style. Solid idea. Watchers ought to have stealthier function than the Ironguard. Red Sisters for more chaotic players (explosions and such - they'd be your mortar troops), Prophets for your pacifist sort (using curses and disabling tricks over killing)...


@Gen & Heretic: In regard to the Vanguard: They are said to be composed largely of criminal and war-trauma types so maybe if the player decides to side with them, they take extra penalties with all the other factions. Or maybe the if the player goes rogue and starts offing humans (whether human themselves or not), the Vanguard is set upon them at random intervals ala Red Dead Redemption's bounty hunters (they spawn continuously-but-randomly while you've got a bounty on your head.)

Or, and it probably gets a bit convoluted here but: Say the player accepts Mortanius' (or Kain's - but I still say it'd be more his character to just eat you if you declined) vampirism -- They get a chance to go back. The Vanguard offers it at any point after gaining their trust - But only once. That is, you can take the offer whenever after it's available, but there's no going back to vampire again. So you take the offer, they put you through a ritual to their Drowning God (a baptism-esque deal, though in reality an execution due to water's deadliness to vampires). Your corpse burns away but, courtesy of the Elder God, you come back...Worse for wear but "alive". And that's how you join the Vanguard, hiding under their outlaw hoods to mask the thing you've become.

AND SPEAKING OF MASKS: Your outfit/gear should totally be customizable within whatever faction/clan you choose. Make use of all Nosgoth's skin designs. Me, I'm a huge fan of the Marksman Regalia so I'd want the option of donning that golden mask if I joined the Watchers...

Heretic_13
26th Apr 2016, 13:31
@Heretic: I'm just going to not bother with anything you post that you've failed to make readable.

Aww you hurt my feelings...(:lol:) I pressed "Enter" in few places just for You, so my post will take more space. XD

If my character will be turned vampire by Kain- i was thinking more about being unique, different from rest of clans, and then your work with wathever goal in mind you`d wish. If for example you are more concern about vampires as a race, your work would be more about common goals, common good. And if you want to pledge to somone, you`re free to do that.

Like the idea of being on "good side"(you know what i mean) wether you are human or vampire

Though i`m not really "buying" idea of going back and forth in time just so we could be changed. Kain returning to his proper time would be better i think. And just imagine. He suddenly shows after hundrets of years of absence. What clan would belive that he was thier god-creator? What "new" general would just hand his power over? That there is great story in itself- gaining trust from zero and being practically free to go anywhere, as vampire, rather than being born to some clan

Also as a young vampire he/she`d be really weak at least at first and compared to rest. That would be the price for sudden change of heart

And i just thought of classes for my Engineers:
1. Steam Engineer- guy that can operate anything related to water nas steam- all kind of nasty acid tricks, melting vampire faces away, making them stick to the ground for a bit, operating this steam punk machines for transportation- cars, boats.

And enviroment kills. Imagine this: you walk through some necropolis, there is a bunch of feral melchiahim. What would hunter do? Called back up and shoot them up. Kinght would just go and cut them to pieces, and mystic would use some magic. But all of them would have to actually go in there and risk getting killed. What would Egineer do? He`d go to nearest dam/river/small lake- disrupt it, change water flow, and drown ghuls.
We go through Silenced Cathedral, zephonim jumps us, we hit some rusty pipe, and hot steam flies in thier faces
And so on

2. Energy Engineer- guy plays around with glyph energy. Shocks vampires, can put temporary barriers, disrupts thier equipments and weapons. Can use old technology, like sound weapons, because he has means to power them up

3. Metal Engineer- Guns- big guns operator. Cannons, Gatlings, big flamethrowers(mounted on wehicles), much more powerfull than ones on vampire hunters back. Traps- bombs that go "boom", but also ones that shoot spikes, or direct force of explosion, jumping bombs, mines, sharp spring razors, bear-trap-like devices that maim, or even cut of lower limbs
Enviromen kills would include droping heavy collumns on top os someone head with use of explosives

Pick your poison :)

GenFeelGood
28th Apr 2016, 21:44
@Ygdrasel
The corruption in relation to the dark gift can go either way, I don't believe it was ever defined.

Consider this instead, you and the others were resurrected by the Elder God to cleanse the world of the vampires; but also with the promise that you would be allowed to live out the time you had left to live once it was over. You emerge from the waters of Nosgoth to be greeted by those within the Drowning Men who worship the Elder God; and as such were told of your arrival through prophecy. When you die you dissolve and remerge from the waters where you are ressurected once again. As you advance through the purges and encounter the other factions, worship of the Elder God expands into them.

Once the purge is complete, the Elder God releases you from service. No longer will you be resurrected, your next death is permanent. However shortly after this you find yourself surrounded by those who worship the Elder God, they are there to kill you by command of the Elder God.
Before they can kill you however, Kain arrives and slays them all. It is after this that Kain makes his offer to you. He will make you a proper vampire with the proper methods, not the method used to make the first empire. You will not lose yourself to the change and not be corrupted. In light of being betrayed by the Elder God and the humans you fight for, you accept.

Now instead of ressurecting you are carried away to the Sanctuary of the Clans by your dark gift once you are on the brink of death in order to recover. Your mission is now to break and disband the factions as you root out those who worship the Elder God.

Heretic_13
29th Apr 2016, 00:30
Yeah, this is some good stuff. But, and i hate myself for saying that in the first place- y`know, for going against good story and creative idea- wouldn`t it be "too much" for side story really? Imagine how big; literally, in Gigabytes, and story-wise would have to be this game, to pack all of the things we thought of?

Well if we are talking about new game, completly focused on what you described above, that is story in itself, could be separate game, but as a means really, just to change sides... Wouldn`t it be too complicated? I`m not questioning, nor saying "this be stoopid", i`m just asking "how do we pack this up?"

I mean this- if some studio ever did a game when you have 3, 4, 5 or more completly diffferent stories (and i mean stories, not paths to achive basically the same ending) depending on what path you choose at whatever turning point in to the game- i`d be friggin` happy and impressed. That is dream come true. That is art, that would push wathever competition it could have in to the dirt without breaking a sweat. It`s not today RPG, when you get some small mention about quests you finished at the end, and you have to belive this stuff was "important", whiel it is basically notification of stuff you did. You are literally making game pivot around your character. That is some heavy stuff

Imagine if in "Skyrim" you could say "uh-uh" to main story lines! If you could spare the life of Ulfric Stormcloak being on imperial side, make him work for wht he destroyed, on word of honor. Or try to force Alduin in to the path of light instead of just killing him. You wouldn`t have plain "hero". "He goes, he kills, he wins, the end. Ka-boom". That would be, almost, living person(you know what i mean)

How about little thing, giving you hints, that what you did matters?
This idea is mine, from RPG session i did years ago, when i was forced to think up stories- our hero helped somebody because he could. Not because there was reward, experience, loot or gold, but because he was around and he was able to help. Sort of Wandering Knight style. And just before he leaves village, little girl runs up to him with flower. Just old, plain field flower. And because this was given with real gratittude and love it turns in to sort of lucky charm. You don`t get "+5 luck" in descripiton or anything. Just plain flower, that is important, because it was a honest gift.

I`m sorry :) i`m drunk, and just finished reading Percy Bysshe Shelley poetry, so i got pretty emotional XD
... AND i forgot my point... Help me find it

Ygdrasel
18th May 2016, 01:46
Wouldn`t it be too complicated? I`m not questioning, nor saying "this be stoopid", i`m just asking "how do we pack this up?"

It's not Nosgoth if it's not overly ambitious. Soul Reaver left a third of its material on the cutting floor. :P And every game since has left material on that same floor. Even the original Blood Omen scrapped a game between Kain and Vorador.

And technically, you can just bail on Skyrim's main storylines. You just invent your own courtesy of its massive world.
As far as what you've described, such mechanics are more common nowadays...Story choices, spare or execute, etcetera...But there is a rational limit involved. To use your example: Alduin cannot be made good. He's too far from it for that to be remotely viable. He is literally born to destroy the world. And "forcing" one to goodness is arguably an evil in itself.


As for the 'flower' idea, that is a perfectly doable thing...If writing can bear it. That little girl giving you a flower won't mean anything if the girl is some pesky throwaway stereotype of children (as most child characters are in games). And Nosgoth, dark place as it is, leaves little room for such sentimental instances. But the general idea can work if executed well, yes. The world can shift based on your choices or NPCs can behave differently, or you can gain tokens of appreciation just there to be tokens...Or some combo of the three.

And every clan would likely believe Kain was their creator. He is their deified father passed through generations in legend. And yes, you'd play a vampire separate and unique from the other clans, of course. Each one Kain raised was unique.

@Gen: Love it. Love everything about it. It would be interesting to see how a "proper" made vampire does by Kain. The ones Vorador makes (BO2) are rather uninteresting. But Vorador, presumably made 'proper' by Janos, took a rather distinct form...I do wonder what Kain would produce through blood.

Heretic_13
18th May 2016, 14:46
"Proper Vampire made by Kain" as in "without corruption" i assume? Yeah it`d be nice thing, but i doubt, we`d seen much of his/hers changes. And even if Kain is healed by Soul Reaver, we still don`t know if our hero would be completly free from it:

1. If he/she was made by Elder God, there can be some slight influence even after sides changing. We all saw how Hylden were able to "subtly" influence Raziel, and Elder was also capable of mind**** him every now and then to shake his resolve, and putting different obstacles in his way

And that kinda leads to-

2. Vampire soul is- to my understanding- thing that is very attached to its body, stagnate really, so in a way, it recives more influence and impulses form all things that happens during un-life, than humans. Killing people and drinking blood to prolong your own, after all, cursed existence is somewhat corrupting, i`d say(i am not hypocritical enough to deny that we do the same thing when we eat chicken, only less magic, more digestion involved). So maybe, like with "Nosgoth" vampires changes in apperance and deformations toward more efficient forms would be less monstrous than in "Soul Reaver", but still present?

I`m not picking a fight- Ygdrasel- i`m throwing idea around.

I was wondering if we could use Hylden somehow- i admit, i preferred "Legacy..." storyline without them in it, but they are very improtant now, so not using them would be kind of waste- i may not like them and what they brought in to the story, but i must admit, thier city architecture and technology were something to behold :P and have nightmares about

So, what say you? Our main protagonist can join them, or thier worshipp at least?(I don`t see us joining them on a racial level, as they don`t really transform people and even if, our descent "to godhood" would be little farfetched.) Sharing thier wisdom and truths about vampires and thier origins through Vessels- choosen priests- or as they clearly aren`t religious- propaganda agents :) , proving that they are victims in this conflict. And of course joining them. So we`d have another option open

Ygdrasel
25th May 2016, 03:14
"Proper Vampire made by Kain" as in "without corruption" i assume? Yeah it`d be nice thing, but i doubt, we`d seen much of his/hers changes. And even if Kain is healed by Soul Reaver, we still don`t know if our hero would be completly free from it:

1. If he/she was made by Elder God, there can be some slight influence even after sides changing. We all saw how Hylden were able to "subtly" influence Raziel, and Elder was also capable of mind**** him every now and then to shake his resolve, and putting different obstacles in his way

And that kinda leads to-

2. Vampire soul is- to my understanding- thing that is very attached to its body, stagnate really, so in a way, it recives more influence and impulses form all things that happens during un-life, than humans. Killing people and drinking blood to prolong your own, after all, cursed existence is somewhat corrupting, i`d say(i am not hypocritical enough to deny that we do the same thing when we eat chicken, only less magic, more digestion involved). So maybe, like with "Nosgoth" vampires changes in apperance and deformations toward more efficient forms would be less monstrous than in "Soul Reaver", but still present?

I`m not picking a fight- Ygdrasel- i`m throwing idea around.

I was wondering if we could use Hylden somehow- i admit, i preferred "Legacy..." storyline without them in it, but they are very improtant now, so not using them would be kind of waste- i may not like them and what they brought in to the story, but i must admit, thier city architecture and technology were something to behold :P and have nightmares about

So, what say you? Our main protagonist can join them, or thier worshipp at least?(I don`t see us joining them on a racial level, as they don`t really transform people and even if, our descent "to godhood" would be little farfetched.) Sharing thier wisdom and truths about vampires and thier origins through Vessels- choosen priests- or as they clearly aren`t religious- propaganda agents :) , proving that they are victims in this conflict. And of course joining them. So we`d have another option open

Gen's idea was that Kain make the player character a vampire via "proper methods", I.E. through blood transfusion on living people. Kain's original children were raised as necromancy from corpses, an unnatural method even by vampire standards, and the source of their corruption.

By contrast, Vorador was made through blood. He still changes.

"And even if Kain is healed by Soul Reaver, we still don`t know if our hero would be completly free from it" - Yes we do. If Kain has no corruption to pass on, none is passed on.

I don't know what your point is at all with 1. Yes, the Hylden and the Elder God are manipulative. And?
As for 2, as noted above, Vorador was made by the proper method and still displays change. So yes, they'd still change with time. By all accounts, evolution is a vampiric process regardless. It's only the breakdown of that evolution that relies on corruption. We could still see plenty of change. (And we certainly do not do the same when we eat chicken. Chickens are not sapient.)

The Hylden brought most of the series mythology with them. What's not to like? And the only storyline without them in it was Soul Reaver.

Joining the Hylden makes little sense though. By the time they escape in Blood Omen 2 (some time before Kain even raises the lieutenants), they've become genocidal bitter monsters. Of course, if they played up the 'victim' card and less the 'planned genocide' thing for our protagonist...There's possibility.

BO2 also gives us The Seer who is Hylden at least in part - and whose ultimate fate is never explicit. Hylden influence or history could be served through her, given that she is a pre-banishment Hylden, very old and not possessed of the same malice as the imprisoned ones.

GenFeelGood
25th May 2016, 18:23
Glad you like it Ygdrasel

Part of me thinks the evolution is the body adapting to support the dark gift as it develops, bringing their form closer to that of the original source of the gift (the ancient vampires); but because the body is human it isn't a complete transition, creating the vamps we know (which you might consider to be hybrids).

Theoretically then, a Hylden could be turned vampire; and that could be an interesting back story for Seer from BO2. A female Hylden turned vampire, as time passed her formed evolved to the form we saw as the dark gift developed. That could be what saves her from being banished to the demon dimension during the rise of the Pillars.

Heretic_13
26th May 2016, 10:43
I meant- Gen gave idea about being resurrected by Elder God. That`s pretty freaking important if you ask me. Then there was double crossing our hero. And Kain steps in, no? But would our Hero be free completly? Elder could still have some influence over him/her. That was my point
Second point- i think vampires are all evolving in to a monster. More or less ugly- they can be pretty, we all saw Vorador`s court- but monsters nonetheless. They need to become more efficient in hunting and killing. The very nature of Dark Gifts needs it. That was my second point. I was waondering how our hero would look like in the end.

Seer is partialy vampire- she has fangs, that rest of her race don`t possess, and clearly didn`t get banished like rest of them. And she seems like good master to join :) at the very least she won`t throw somebody from cliff
I always wondered if she was turned vampire, or maybe born to mixed couple :D

GenFeelGood
27th May 2016, 01:54
Why would it need to influence them?

You play one of the many recently deceased victims of the vampires to be resurrected by the Elder God, as it did for Mobius in Defiance; and you aren't the only one, countless others have also been resurrected. The Elder God has proven to not be omniscient, so it might not anticipate Kain's return to this era. If it doesn't forsee Kain then why would it need to go through the trouble of establishing influence over all of the humans it raises. There already is ample motivation for you and the others, vengeance against the vamps and the promise of a second chance at life once it is over; and as stated before, all you have to do is die once in order for the Elder God to own you once again.
*

Ygdrasel
27th May 2016, 05:03
Glad you like it Ygdrasel

Part of me thinks the evolution is the body adapting to support the dark gift as it develops, bringing their form closer to that of the original source of the gift (the ancient vampires); but because the body is human it isn't a complete transition, creating the vamps we know (which you might consider to be hybrids).

Theoretically then, a Hylden could be turned vampire; and that could be an interesting back story for Seer from BO2. A female Hylden turned vampire, as time passed her formed evolved to the form we saw as the dark gift developed. That could be what saves her from being banished to the demon dimension during the rise of the Pillars.

As it so happens, that has been exactly my theory on the Seer for a time now. A Hylden who escaped the binding by virtue of Ancient blood given by Vorador (or else Vorador persuaded it be given by Janos - this being the favor she owes him for).

This would explain the vampiric traits she possesses and her telekinetic gift (which is shown by various vampires but no Hylden).

And while the Elder God is not omniscient, he's also not foolish. He knows Kain means to destroy him. He knows Kain comprehends the intricacies of time travel. So he would certainly anticipate Kain's return to the era.

GenFeelGood
27th May 2016, 21:40
Yes, the EG would see it as a certainty; but it has no way of knowing what point in this post SR era that Kain will emerge in. I doubt it could also predict that Kain would turn the very people that were resurrected to finish off the remnants of the old empire, becoming the foundation for the new one.

Heretic_13
30th May 2016, 07:57
Ok, i know that Kain is outside Wheel of Fate because of his unique, from vapire point of wiev, "present from Raziel"- no heart, and he still is alive and kicking- but who siad that our hero is?
And by predicting possible future choices of our hero/heroine, Elder God could have insight in to possible movements of Kain
Or simply some powerfull magic- that helps restrain our poor protagonist in crucial moments- as a safe fail device "put" inside in moment of resurrection. Or even not restrain, but subtly influence him/her- agitating, making him/her suspicious of possibly new allies.
Connection doesn`t have to be severed 100% moment we turn vampire. And that could be one of our goals- to sever that last bit of connection to Elder God

GenFeelGood
30th May 2016, 23:47
Sounds good, adds more motivation and it supports a theory of mine.

I've theories that the silence of the EG that drove the ancients to suicide after being cursed was actually the result of the Pillar's creation, that the binding also compromised the EG. When the Pillars are pristine and under vampiric control the binding is complete; and when that happens, the EG is no longer has influence.

After the Pillars went to the first humans the binding decayed just enough to that the EG was able to whisper into their ears and turn them against the vampires.

So if the theory is correct, the promise that by helping Kain would not only restore the Pillars but also save you from being controlled by the EG.

Ygdrasel
1st Jun 2016, 08:33
Kain would turn the very people that were resurrected to finish off the remnants of the old empire, becoming the foundation for the new one.

...Wait, who are we referring to here?


The "Pillars bound the EG" theory is interesting but I'm not entirely sure it holds. There isn't any logical reason as to why the Pillars would bind him so. He was not banished anyplace. The binding targeted Hylden.

One might argue that the Dimension pillar - being the strength behind the dimensional boundaries - specifically locked him up snug in the spectral realm but it's not as if dimensional borders only existed after the Pillars. So he ought to have been locked up all along anyway then if this were the case. The only reason the demon dimension needed an extra lock (the Pillars) is because the Hylden, being native to the standard realm, were unnaturally imprisoned in a foreign one and (on top of the world in general disdaining this for balance reasons) would make a struggle to escape that would necessitate counteraction.


So yeah, I'm not certain that holds -- but the end result works out still: As Raziel notes in SR2, the Elder God does seem to thrive more as Nosgoth grows further corrupted. Rather than being locked by the Pillars, it could be that his food supply is locked by them.



Consider Nosgoth, pre-Pillars. Probably not quite as grand as post-Pillars because the Pillars rendered the land magically strong as opposed to just naturally - whatever the world's state, forging these perfect-state magical things and tying them to the world boosted it even further.

But back to pre-Pillars: Nosgoth is basically healthy and life/death rates are roughly well-balanced. So the Elder God can live in that world more-or-less comfortably. And he does so way back in Ancient times, using his cult to keep a nice moderate flow of snackage. But then the Hylden go off seeking to break from death, find immortality of a kind. And that threatens his food source so he decides to pre-empt that threat by sparking a war that will allow him to feed himself for quite a time to come.

Then, the unexpected: His troops in this conflict pull a power move. They forge these mystically-perfect artifacts and bind them deep into the very fabric of the world. The magical flawlessness of these constructs elevates the health of the world to a new idyllic state.

In a Pillar-maintained world, the land is obscenely healthy. Everything is balanced upon a perfect point. People live and thrive to far greater degrees, life expectancy swiftly rises. People die less - EG eats less. By extension of lower/slower death rates, rebirth occurs less, further crippling the death rate (that which is not yet reborn cannot die again), further depleting his food supply.

So the Elder God begins to go hungry...But then he gets a new idea. The Pillars were forged to be an inextricable connection to Nosgoth. He can use that same connection that elevated Nosgoth and left him malnourished to tear Nosgoth down and glut himself.

In a Pillar-ruined world, the land is wretched. Conditions are unsuited for thriving organisms. Life expectancy is dismal. People die fast and easy and are reborn to die fast and easy again - and again and again and again and again. Food comes in somewhat smaller portions now (as the overall population is lesser for the world's conditions) but it comes so rapidly and easy as to compensate for that.

So restoring the Pillars may not truly trap the Elder God, i.e., literally magically block him outright from the world. But it may starve him to a point where he shrivels back into the spectral realm and can't muster the energy to spread so far. The end result is the same - and we'd get to see his voice/influence lessen and his physical form shrink away from the world a little more as each Pillar is restored. (Though total starvation takes time: The final blow to end him would require a future-trip after the restoration, at which point he'd just be a shriveled husk of the monstrosity he was prior.)

It would be a shame to see these talks ended when the forum goes off. I don't suppose you keep a presence over in the main LoK section?


Kain is outside Wheel of Fate

He isn't though...
People keep with this idea that Kain was broken from the Wheel when his heart was removed because Moebius couldn't see it.

Moebius does not see Kain survive that because Moebius is not the Time Guardian at that point.
His resurrection at the Ancient Citadel occurs, chronologically, after his original death by Kain's hand in Blood Omen. Moebius ceased to be the Time Guardian when BO-era Kain restored the Pillar of Time - and then Moebius was revived at the Citadel. In that moment, he has no omniscience to see Kain's survival because the last thing he witnessed as Time Guardian was Kain's death.

GenFeelGood
1st Jun 2016, 20:31
...Wait, who are we referring to here?

This is your character, along with other humans that the EG resurrected in order to wipe out the remnants of Kain's first empire; and betray once once the task is complete, denying you your reward of life. Making you a prime candidate to side with Kain, wiping the slate clean for both vampires and humans.

"Who better to serve me then those whose passions transcend all notions of good and evil."

The theory is that the Pillars place the EG in a type of comma when the binding is complete, which only happens when the Pillars are pristine and the vampires are their guardians. This is just going off the fact that the silence of the EG was first broken (as far as we know) when it spoke to Mobius, before he became a vampire and possibly even before he became a guardian.

If the theory does hold, then after some of the ancient vampire guardians committed suicide the Pillars went into the weakened state like it did in BO and the EG became conscious once more; and there it watched quietly as to understand what was happening. It watched and learned as the ancient vampires brought the humans that were meant to serve the Pillars to their citadel to informed them of how things are and that they were to be turned into vampires, that is when the EG first spoke to Mobius. In Defiance, Mobius was resurrected where he and the EG first encountered one another, that was from within the Vampire Citadel.

ParadoxicalOmen
1st Jun 2016, 21:03
The theory is that the Pillars place the EG in a type of comma when the binding is complete, which only happens when the Pillars are pristine and the vampires are their guardians. This is just going off the fact that the silence of the EG was first broken (as far as we know) when it spoke to Mobius, before he became a vampire and possibly even before he became a guardian.


I'm with Ygdrasel here. This theory isn't solid.
The pillars never "binded" EG...he was active before and after the pillars.

Before the pillars, EG manipulated the Ancient Vampires, and he only went silent towards the vampires (due to their immortality and not being able to feed off them anymore).
After the pillars, EG manipulated the humans...most notably Moebius.

Also, in SR2, EG was clearly fine underneath the pillars...


Ok, i know that Kain is outside Wheel of Fate because of his unique, from vapire point of wiev

Umm...no dude. Kain isn't outside of the wheel...he said so himself in LoK-Defiance.
The only person outside of the wheel, and actually capable of free will, is Raziel (also explained in LoK-Defiance).

Raziel didn't "give" Kain free will...he cleansed Kain from his corruption, that was caused by Nupraptor in Blood Omen 1.
This allows Kain to fulfill his role as the Balance guardian since now he is no longer corrupt...it has nothing to do with free will.

Explaining this a bit further, the "free will" concept is directly linked to the wheel of fate...which in other words means, only those exempt from the wheel have free will.
The only being in this situation is Raziel. He cannot be absorbed by EG...Raziel cannot "die".
I'm not sure if this was ever concretely explained...i believe this is be due to Raziel being a living paradox. He wields his own soul as a weapon, since he is the soul reaver.
I think Raziel only got his free will after his fight with Kain in SR1, where he got imbued with the soul reaver.

PS: About the original topic of this thread...i think the best type of RPG that would fit LoK is Witcher.
Legacy of Kain playing out as the Witcher would be AWESOME.
Which btw, does Witcher 3 have mod support? Cause if it does, someone needs to make a LoK mod ASAP :D

Ygdrasel
2nd Jun 2016, 00:27
I think Raziel only got his free will after his fight with Kain in SR1, where he got imbued with the soul reaver.

Precisely. Kain's actions there turned Raziel into a constant Reaver-convergence - a constant ripple point in time. People seem to think Raziel's free will came about as a result of his escaping perma-death in the Abyss. They then extend this reasoning to Kain's escape from death via heart-removal. But the initial reasoning is faulty. Raziel's free will springs to life when Kain creates that perpetual convergence. And Kain's survival is unforeseen because Moebius wasn't Time Guardian then - which also explains why the Elder God went ahead and ate him at last. Moebius without his magic is just an old man.

And if it's got a PC version, it's got mod support. Skyrim has the Soul Reaver in it.



This is your character, along with other humans that the EG resurrected in order to wipe out the remnants of Kain's first empire; and betray once once the task is complete, denying you your reward of life. Making you a prime candidate to side with Kain, wiping the slate clean for both vampires and humans.

"Who better to serve me then those whose passions transcend all notions of good and evil."

The theory is that the Pillars place the EG in a type of comma when the binding is complete, which only happens when the Pillars are pristine and the vampires are their guardians. This is just going off the fact that the silence of the EG was first broken (as far as we know) when it spoke to Mobius, before he became a vampire and possibly even before he became a guardian.

If the theory does hold, then after some of the ancient vampire guardians committed suicide the Pillars went into the weakened state like it did in BO and the EG became conscious once more; and there it watched quietly as to understand what was happening. It watched and learned as the ancient vampires brought the humans that were meant to serve the Pillars to their citadel to informed them of how things are and that they were to be turned into vampires, that is when the EG first spoke to Mobius. In Defiance, Mobius was resurrected where he and the EG first encountered one another, that was from within the Vampire Citadel.


The EG cannot deny life. He does not control that cycle. And...Moebius never became a vampire. O.o

The EG first spoke to Moebius in the Vampire Cathedral. Moebius was at the cathedral after the Ancients kidnapped him. He had already been selected as the Guardian though whether or not he had already been granted the accompanying powers is not explicitly known.

There is nothing solid to support a coma-inducing Pillar theory though. He goes silent in disdain for their immortality and breaks his silence to Moebius because Moebius is the ideal instrument.

1) He's a fresh kidnap victim likely with some frustration toward his captors. This makes him...Malleable.

2) Once granted the powers of Time Guardian, he provides an unprecedented and unequaled utility.

3) Moebius has a long-standing reputation for deceit and trickery. He may have held these traits even prior to Guardianship, with the new powers only fueling those qualities.

A very ideal agent for a deceptive god, in short. And if the Pillars in a perfected state did have the unforeseen effect of drying up his food supply, Moebius' station would be especially alluring as a method by which to avoid future unaccounted consequences. (This would also explain his obsession with reining in Raziel's free will - anything unforeseen is considered a risk to him after that first crucial blunder.)

GenFeelGood
2nd Jun 2016, 03:33
I'm not saying he did; but that was what the ancient vampires had in mind, turning the human guardians into vampires.

Heretic kept at the idea that the EG would have done something to your character to influence them while in the land of the living, I just wanted to find so way to incorporate it; but I much prefer that the EG would command his new followers to kill you once you have served your purpose, so there is no question that they are the enemy even before you become a vampire.

If the theory doesn't work then it doesn't work. I just wanted the EG to have a more substantial motivation to have orchestrated all this than just because it doesn't like to tightening it's belt.

Heretic_13
2nd Jun 2016, 10:37
Thruth to be told- we all don`t really know why Elder God went silent after Pillars were erected. We can, probably rightly- after all it`s logical- assume that he was simply angry that vampires went immortal. Or maybe he wants everyone to think that way? He rally likes to pretend to be all-knowing, and allmighty
As you siad earlier- Pillars made realm flourish. I imagine bouncing back and forth in time, to keep everyone, where they suppose to be, doing what they suppose to do is pretty energy consuming- so being "hungry" he also was weaker, and his influence was therefore diminished. So his "silence" was maybe conserving strenght to talk to important people- good tools- like Moebius? Or maybe he knew something else...

And that leads to my theory, that i posted long time ago, and it made people in here almost chew me alive. I`ll post it again- Ygdrasel will impale me, but i`m still holding onto it:
Elder God is at least partially responisble of truning Ancients in to vampires. "It dosen`t make any sense. Why would he make them stagnate in to thier flesh, when all he wants to do is eat thier souls?". True, he probably didn`t want most of it- immortality, but maybe he chose lesser evil? He disposed of guys powefull enough to partialy shut his business down, by inventing Pillars

First of all- He knew that most of them will kill themselves, y`know he went silent, they couldn`t take it bla bla bla, and after... meal, they return to Material Realm, as "lower lifefroms"- namely humans. So most of them is dealt with in single move. Dealing with the rest of them- he knew humans won`t like to be drained of blood. BOOM. Sarafans, Moebius Army, and Hylden Lord and his Neo-Sarafan- he knew there will be plenty of people capable and willing to go and do whats need to be done. And if they aren`t capable- vampires will kill them, and thier souls will float to him anyway. Win-win situation. That way binding will become weaker, and his influence over the Nosgoth won`t be hindered as much. Look how he and Moebius were confident that Hylden will be dealt with in time. And by whom? By Kain- thier biggest enemy. Both of them knew how to stage it and let thier enemies eat each other. Dealing with one problem at the time- Hylden start to take a ****? Send Ancients to war. Ancient start to become to powerfull? Send blood-curse(true- not his real goal, but he had to make most of it), humans and pout- to make ancients feel guilty. Humans are turned in to vampires? Send more humans. What... Who... Kain? Ok, let`s manipulate Raziel.
He was sure he`ll win

Aaand even if you say that all above is bull**** i have one big problem with your theory about Hylden trying to be immortal and that starting whole war. If all they wanted to do is escape Elder God- why didn`t they turned vampires themselves? You know- "throw" the curse on themselves? What, they invented that curse only after banishment? How? In Demon Realm there is some kind of curse-advisor? Who?

ParadoxicalOmen
3rd Jun 2016, 01:43
And if it's got a PC version, it's got mod support. Skyrim has the Soul Reaver in it.



I know...but the Skyrim mods were just skins. I had in mind something more meaningful...
Like recreating part of Nosgoth (like the Pillars); maybe having Vorador and other important characters as NPC's; Trying to make some spells similar to the ones in LoK (like mind control, or Blood shot).
In other words, trying to create a mini LoK game (like maybe just the Silent Cathedral Section)...

Ygdrasel
3rd Jun 2016, 03:58
Thruth to be told- we all don`t really know why Elder God went silent after Pillars were erected.

I imagine bouncing back and forth in time

Elder God is at least partially responisble of truning Ancients in to vampires. He disposed of guys powefull enough to partialy shut his business down, by inventing Pillars

If all they wanted to do is escape Elder God- why didn`t they turned vampires themselves? You know- "throw" the curse on themselves? What, they invented that curse only after banishment? How? In Demon Realm there is some kind of curse-advisor? Who?

We do though. We are told why.

The Elder God does not bounce back and forth in time.

Disposing of those seeking to deprive his food supply by orchestrating an even greater deprivation still makes no sense. The Ancients were never too powerful - they always worshiped him. And the Elder God was not confident about the Hylden being dealt with - Moebius was because Moebius already saw that future. And all of that isn't even considering the one crucial fact that the Hylden orchestrated the blood curse and the Elder God has exactly zero influence with them.


And the curse thrown on the vampires was cast in the very moments before the banishment. I doubt the Hylden had time to re-calibrate their magic to affect themselves even if they'd wanted. They also probably didn't want to become bloodthirsty monsters which was a part of the curse so...Yeah.


@Gen: The EG just sending agents to kill you once your work is done certainly seems his style. And as to his motivation, it's a fairly recurring motive of actual people to do wretched things for something as petty as greed for resources. It seems fitting to his character to have such a selfish, little drive. And (per my conception of it anyway), the Pillars aren't just making him "tighten his belt". They cause him to literally starve. A starving being grows weak. A weak being cannot influence people or events. And, eventually, a starving creature dies (though, being spectral in origin, the EG perhaps cannot 'die' as such - but he can become so weak as to more or less become comatose.)


@Paradox: The Soul Reaver is Skyrim is a custom model, not only a skin. So it's certainly possible to make a model of Vorador and such. As far as getting such a thing built and into a game proper, I lack the technical knowledge as to how. But it should be doable.

Heretic_13
3rd Jun 2016, 12:24
Wait, wait, wait... Didn`t Hylden cursed vampires 'from' Demon Dimension??? Even Hylden Lord did point it out to Janos in Blood Omen 2 that "it was justice for sending them away", yes? And thier pre-banishment weapon was Mass, not blood curse, that would make vampires even harder to kill, am i correct?

And if Hylden knew about Elder God i think, they`d choose blood curse over being eaten over and over and over again- that would give them time to seek another way of ganing thier immortality. We all saw that they don`t have any problems with using humans, or other creatures for that matter, to whatever purpose they see fit. They feed slaves to Mass, they`d kill everything sapient in Nosgoth beside them if Device was ever completed in time. They experiment, torture seeking answers to thier questions. To them humans are cattle, much like to vampires, so bloodthirst for immortality would be fair deal to them. As long as Elder is kept away from them.

Elder would know what happens to Hylden- he doesn`t need Time Streamer powers- he just will be there and see for himself

Ancient were very powerfull- they erected Pillars after all, magical construct capable of banishing entire race and keeping whole land balanced. If they can do this, who knows what they would be capable of if they ever discovered Elder true nature?

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Jun 2016, 02:46
Honestly Heretic_13, there are many arguments to shoot down your theory.

EG planning on the Ancients getting immortality really doesn't make much sense.
There were basically 2 dominant species, which were the Ancients and the Hylden...the Ancients were devout to EG, doing his bidding and worshiping him (and most importantly, dying to feed him), but the Hylden didn't much care for him...
The Ancients becoming immortal was punishment from the Hylden, since they were banishing them to the demon realm for not believing in their "God".

To my knowledge the Hylden are already immortal. I always thought of the the Seer and the Hylden lord as such.
In special the Hylden lord remembers being banished and argues with Janos (BO2) saying how the Hylden have changed in the demon realm:
https://youtu.be/E8J6zp8xHsc?t=8m12s
(Not to mention he was alive the whole time Kain was sleeping after losing to him...which was 200 years)
But i guess the most interesting quote is:
"You have won the battle, but the war between your kind and mine will never end. Our banishment in the demon dimension also ensures our immortality. One day, we shall return."

I really doubt EG planned to make the Ancients immortal...especially considering he is so focused on killing Kain, which is a consequence of this.

Btw, EG going silent towards the Ancients is curious, but isn't that important on my opinion...there are several valid reason for this.
He could just be mad since his food source is gone; he could be doing it on purpose so they go mad and suicide; he could have simply lost interest.
In the end he focused on a new species to manipulated and feed...the humans.

Heretic_13
4th Jun 2016, 06:38
I didn`t say he wanted them immortal. I said he wanted them gone. Dead. So thier souls would fly to him and return as humans, since we probably have shorter lifespan than Ancients and Hylden anyway, and our talents- that could make us dominant- lie elsewhere than powerfull magic capable of keeping him at bay. We are fun little race, aren`t we? And as you said, he could go silent because he knew, Ancients will kill themselves. "Could". Not "did"
I pointed out earlier- we don`t know every reason for his silence. He likes to make people think he did that, because they were, well... heretics in his(many) eyes. But was it really only that?

Hylden are immortal, but as we all know Demon Realm isn`t place they are fond of. I`m guessing they would choose vampirism over that. I know they are now all high-and-mighty about vampires being "degenerate parasites", but it is just general hate. In thier shoes i would give priority to being not-devoured-by-Elder-God

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Jun 2016, 12:56
I didn`t say he wanted them immortal. I said he wanted them gone. Dead. So thier souls would fly to him and return as humans, since we probably have shorter lifespan than Ancients and Hylden anyway, and our talents- that could make us dominant- lie elsewhere than powerfull magic capable of keeping him at bay. We are fun little race, aren`t we? And as you said, he could go silent because he knew, Ancients will kill themselves. "Could". Not "did"
I pointed out earlier- we don`t know every reason for his silence. He likes to make people think he did that, because they were, well... heretics in his(many) eyes. But was it really only that?


The Ancients were mortal and perfectly willing to do whatever the EG wanted...so again, it doesn't make much sense.



Hylden are immortal, but as we all know Demon Realm isn`t place they are fond of. I`m guessing they would choose vampirism over that. I know they are now all high-and-mighty about vampires being "degenerate parasites", but it is just general hate. In thier shoes i would give priority to being not-devoured-by-Elder-God

This is just speculation of yours, which personally i don't agree.
It seems the Hylden discovered a way to achieve immortality, which is the reason for the war between them and the Ancients.
It's not like they "used" their only way of being immortal on the Ancients...this wouldn't make sense, since why wouldn't they be able to turn themselves immortal also? To back this up, the Hylden lord says that they are immortal...so obviously they knew how to become immortal and didn't use "their only chance" on the Ancients...

Vampirism is just a bonus punishment, the true punishment is immortality...they gave the Ancients immortality, as a way to punish them for beginning a war against exactly this...the vampirism is just a bonus, since the Ancients were so very righteous. (This is how i see it)

Heretic_13
10th Jun 2016, 19:26
It seems the Hylden discovered a way to achieve immortality, which is the reason for the war between them and the Ancients.
It's not like they "used" their only way of being immortal on the Ancients...this wouldn't make sense, since why wouldn't they be able to turn themselves immortal also? To back this up, the Hylden lord says that they are immortal...so obviously they knew how to become immortal and didn't use "their only chance" on the Ancients...
Vampirism is just a bonus punishment, the true punishment is immortality...they gave the Ancients immortality, as a way to punish them for beginning a war against exactly this...the vampirism is just a bonus, since the Ancients were so very righteous. (This is how i see it)

(I`m very sorry- i`m about to be very sarcastic. I`m not attacking anybody. Just whole day had to put up with people who lack even ounce of common sense, and it`s very hard to rid myself of this attitude)

And that is your speculation :D
Two or more ways of achiving immortality? What, they were sitting around:
- Guys, we can be NOT eaten every 100 years or so by giant squid. We just invented it!!! What are we doing now???
- How about we invent more ways to be immortal? About 14 will suffice.
- Yeah, that seems like a good way to spend time...
- Hey, how about we go immortal first? Y`know, i have a terminal ilness caused by this spear that Winged Guys shoved through me...
- No, no. We will wait.
- WHY?!
- Because we are good sport. That is why. We will blast them into oblivion with our Device- that how honest and righteous we are... We won`t drink blood, or grow fangs, but we can kill basically millions and have no problem with it...

We can bounce this ball back and forth :) I`m just a fan of simple solutions. Wait, wrong. A Logicalm abd simple solutions. If they invented a way, and that caused a war- why they didn`t use it on themselves right that instant??? What? More options? Downloadable content? Multi-purpose tools? Half-a-price promotions? What?
Or, more likely, they were onto something, and that caused Elder God to send his servants? But much like Device, it was never finished? Or even started, to begin with?

(New idea- both races were going into advanced state- so He-who-name-we-don`t-know-because-he-is-pretensious-**** decided to wipe them out, and used pretty petty reason. Like faith. We will discuss that later)

Hylden Lord stated that "thier banishemnt ensures thier immortality"- not some invention of thiers. So immortality came after banishment

I`m just struggling with this- Hylden look for a way to give a finger to Squiddy. Ok. Seems reason enough to send Black Wings. Big fight. Lots of them dies. Hylden work on thier A-bomb, Ancients on thiers. Ancient finish work first. Hylden go to hell. Happy End... Not quite. Hylden curse (and swear, and call names) thier oponents. God of Ancients goes 3 year old child, that didn`t get ice cream. Ancients, much like parents of said child, decide to kill themselves rather than struggle with this ingrate. Humans step in. And new era begins.

So if Hylden got thier immortality, or at least tool(vampirism) to do so- why didn`t they use it?

"They would have to feast on blood". So? You have 2 alternatives(i always thought there is only one alternative. Either option 1 and then alternative, but whatever- i ain`t from english speaking nation): Squiddy eats you, or you eat others. Not really a hard choice i`d say.

"They had other ways"- ok. And they waited for what to "load" them? Stars aligned? Sunny day? Till thier high priest get rid of her/his headache?

"They wanted to use vampirism as a weapon"- way to go. Make yor opponents evolve in to stronger, very hard to kill beasts, that would prey on people who put curse on them. It`s like inventing gun that shoots user

I can`t find logic in it. Even my own ideas seem to me far fetched, but i can`t find logic in anything. So Hylden are in hell, and they put vampirism on Ancients. How? Where did they get idea from? Curse-store around the corner, y`know, just few steps to the left from Horny... Horned Demon? Somebody answer me, please. Find some logical solution

I came up with: Ancients got rid of threat from Hylden... Wait? Did they? They just basically send them away to a place, where they stew for an eternity, not dying. Elder had to be really proud... "Way to go, you just cut my food supply about 1/3 of previous amount(if we assuje population of humans, hylden and ancient were roughly the same). **** idiots! I wanted you to KILL THEM, or convert them, but not make them immortal!!! And where did you get this freaking pillars?! They do what?! You are capable of doing such things... Maybe you run out of your usefulness...".

Hylden get an idea of getting back on Ancients- now they are beyond of Ancient bloodthirst and claws and teeth, so why not? But how did they got it?
Mass suicide. 99% of the problem solved
Moebius and Mortanius rebel... And they have to convert other humans to help them(not to mention- where did Moebius got that staff-designed-to-combat-vampires i wonder? Elder God maybe?). But would they rebel, if thier masters were just different race? Wouldn`t petty humans struggle to be one of this powerful, beautiful, capable of flight(one of my childhood dreams), wise beings, of apparently immeasurable strenght and knowlege? Maybe they would if they think that thier masters are bloodthirsty killers. But they still are immortal, pretty, wise, so on... Humans are pretty easily corruptable, as we could see on many occasions, both in games and in life. Bit of killing won`t really sway them away. Unless there is someone who plotted entire time, knowin full well what string to pull and when

Sorry

Oh and one more thing- i didn`t want to make 2 posts, so i edit this one- i`d drop this stuff about vampires water-weakness. It is frankly instulting to anyone with a bit of common sense. Blood is mainly water, sweat is mainly water(if someone tried to rip my throat, i`d sweat. A lot. Good luck biting me then), hell, even our body is mainly water- vampires would spontaneous combust- or rather spontaneous dissolve seconds afer turning. What about snow? What about mist?!- one of the Kain abilities. I didn`t know he is suicidal. In other words water-weakness is so stupid that it takes breath away. It`s practicall self eliminating.

If anything i`d use moving water turning vampires in to ash(or burn them like acid). It`s consistent with vampires legends, wouldn`t change what happened to Raziel- he fell in to moving water after all- and woudn`t lessen Rahabim achivement, since only small portion of waters in Nosgoth are artificial water bodies. And even then we could use them to drown our opponents- we know vampires breathe- look at Kain and Rziel during thier showdown in Avernus- i highly doubt Dumahim or Turelim have swimming lessons, so pushing them in to the water would give slightly different results, but outcome(free yoer soul, demon!) is practically the same.
Why moving water? As i said, it is stupid about as much as simple water weakness, but consistent with legends- we all know that moving water does possess some kind of energy- look up the underground water ways if you are interested- and can still provide challenge during game