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View Full Version : A couple of suggestions before the new ESL prizes



malgaa
6th Sep 2015, 13:28
Hey there. I have two suggestions that I believe should be implemented before October, when the ESL prizes get raised.


Disabling weapons/skills with boosted stats: This was already discussed in ESL forums (http://forum.eslgaming.com/discussion/9737/no-weapon-skill-properties-setting-for-private-match) a few weeks ago but there haven't been any news. The only thing we could get was Saikocat forwarding the suggestion to the dev team.

In the current situation you can get OP builds for your classes like having a human weapon with +HP +SprintSpeed -FallDamage -ReloadSpeed. These are great advantages with almost no drawbacks, forge a weapon like that plus two abilities, combine it with a perk, and you can get things like a tanky as hell deceiver or a Formula 1 hunter that outruns every vampire.

The problem with the forged weapons/skills is that to get a good build (nice positive values with irrelevant negative ones) you have to either grind a lot of gold or spend a lot of runestones, which means that a team that plays a lot but isn't necessarily better can beat another team because of these advantages or, even worse, a team that buys runestones can be in the same situation, which brings the game a little closer to p2w.

I already forwarded this suggestion to ESL but there's no reliable way for them to force people to use default non-boosted weapons/abilities, the only safe way would be, like Shikei already suggested in ESL forums, an option to disable these boosted items when you are creating a private lobby. This has to be made by the devs.


Implementing a proper ESL seeding system: I know this has to be done by ESL and not by Psyonix themselves but I guess posting it here would draw more attention to see what you guys think about it. I contacted ESL admins and they said they can't do anything about it and the only way is to open a support ticket in ESL so that the guys in charge can decide about it. I want to see what you guys think about this suggestion and if you think the current seeding system should be changed.

The seedings being used in EU at this moment are these (http://toolbox1.tedc.de/go4/nosgoth_cbcs_eu/). These seedings are the global seedings from every cup played in ESL since the very first Nosgoth cup. What this means is that a team like Dead Sun Zenith that has been around for a long time will have seeding 1 forever as long as they keep playing, and even if teams like Pubstars or Iron Fist won every cup for 1 or 2 months, they wouldn't still get seeding 1.

This system also affects new teams, we've seen in the last couple of cups that I Blame Hank, a new team that is capable of winning against most teams in ESL, is always matched with Iron Fist in the first or second round, which means they have a hard time getting to the last rounds and they can't prove themselves against the other teams.

What do you think would be a good seeding system? Maybe using the results from the last month in ESL would make more sense, so that if a team wins the monthly cup and 1-2 weekly cups they should have seeding 1 for the next month or something similar to this.


What do you guys think?

Ryugan34
6th Sep 2015, 14:02
+1 to this .

Youkai01
6th Sep 2015, 14:02
agreed

SilentVirtue
6th Sep 2015, 14:10
Only thing i Disagree with is the seeding, Zenith is about the same age as iron fist, as both formed due to the same event, on average zenith have won more often than any other team in europe, so why should we not be first seed? at the point that you have proven you are a better team, you should take seed 1.

And please note that the times you had "won for 1-2 months straight" you won 1 monthly final and a few weeks around it, and have yet to do so again. I think seeding is unfair on newer teams, but the current seeding with DSz 1st IF 2nd Pub 3rd is currently accurate, the issue lies in the lower teams who are unlikely to improve their seeding beyond the top 8.

really seeding would matter a lot less in a double elimination tourney... funny how that solves a lot of our issues...

Further more, Psyonix need to fix theese damn sounds bugs for various teams making maps unplayable.

malgaa
6th Sep 2015, 14:34
Only thing i Disagree with [...]

I agree with Dead Sun having seed 1 at this moment but not because of the global seeding system but because you've won most of the last cups. The fact that you've won more cups over a long period of time doesn't make you eligible for seed 1 in my opinion. Imagine that, for whatever reason, you started losing ESL cups in the 1st round during 1 or 2 months. You would still be seed 1 during that time and that's not fair at all. For those who like soccer, a good analogy would be a team like Real Madrid automatically qualifying for Champions League because they've won that cup more than anyone else in its lifespan, even if the team were performing bad.

When I said Pubstar or Iron Fist winning every cup for 1-2 months I was talking about an hypothetical situation, I know we didn't win every cup in that time, but I also think that it was fair that we had seed 1 during that time, and I also think it's fair that Dead Sun have seed 1 at this current moment.

I also think a double elimination system would fix these issues but the actual system makes cups long enough, with a double elimination system you'd have to play the cup during literally the whole day or split it between saturday and sunday which would be impossible to play for many teams, remember we're not professional teams and most people have other priorities.

xNarcissusx
6th Sep 2015, 14:42
Disabling weapons/skills with boosted stats: This was already discussed in ESL forums (http://forum.eslgaming.com/discussion/9737/no-weapon-skill-properties-setting-for-private-match) a few weeks ago but there haven't been any news. The only thing we could get was Saikocat forwarding the suggestion to the dev team.

In the current situation you can get OP builds for your classes like having a human weapon with +HP +SprintSpeed -FallDamage -ReloadSpeed. These are great advantages with almost no drawbacks, forge a weapon like that plus two abilities, combine it with a perk, and you can get things like a tanky as hell deceiver or a Formula 1 hunter that outruns every vampire.

The problem with the forged weapons/skills is that to get a good build (nice positive values with irrelevant negative ones) you have to either grind a lot of gold or spend a lot of runestones, which means that a team that plays a lot but isn't necessarily better can beat another team because of these advantages or, even worse, a team that buys runestones can be in the same situation, which brings the game a little closer to p2w.


I've always found this to be an interesting topic. While I can agree on a basic level, that removing builds would be more viable to compare two teams because they have the same equipment and thus making it more fair, that is somewhat removing a part of the game. A lot of competitive games have different types of benefits for having better or worse armour/equipment. Sure one could argue that FPS games rarely have such a feature but Nosgoth isn't your typical FPS game (technically its a 3ps game so just the whole looking around corners is a tad unfair) the reason people prefer this over other games is that it's so different so why remove some of the features that distinguish the game?

You can compare this to Formula 1 if you want, drivers have an advantage if they have a better engine in their car. Currently I think Mercedes are the ones that doing really well and one could argue that Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton as he won like 3 years in a row but maybe he just had a better build back then, and Hamilton was always the better driver. And here you could compare to the argument that those that spend money have better equipment because whoever has the better engine probably spent more money developing it.

And what if it does get removed in the ESL will people start saying that it should get removed in the ranked ladder as well? After all money is involved there as well so why shouldn't people have the same gear there if they have to do that in the ESL, and then what is the reason for even having these bonuses on weapons if you can only use it for practice matches? Okay I understand you didn't suggest this for the ranked ladder but why should there be a difference between the two?

The real issue here however is as you said that certain builds are OP because their cons are negligible and their pros are game breaking. So for that sake I will agree that if there are builds that are game breaking in the sense that humans can simply out run most vampires (I don't think having more HP on a deceiver can actually make that a decent tank, but I haven't played much lately so I could be wrong) which is is somewhat unfair due to vamps not having having any speed buffs so they can't catch up (which a melee class should do) unless they use abilities like, pounce, charge, abduct, dominate mind and abyssal bolt. Okay sure every class "has" a way of catching but they vamps should still be able to just run at the same pace as humans.

So while I've mostly spoked against removing this feature I will however speak for it by saying that. If it is abused to the point where it's OP then it's a balancing issue. Ranged classes should not be the ones that are faster so they can kite. So until the balancing has been fixed removing it temporarily is a necessary measure to make sure things are not abused. Personally I think the sprinting perk can be removed that way the bonuses on weapons and abilities are not enough to be able to outrun vampires.

I know this became a long post but I feel like it needed explaining why it they should just remove it for a certain while until it's balanced and no more game breaking.

Ryugan34
6th Sep 2015, 14:47
With new cash price coming to ESL, a double elimination tourney would be the best way to deal with unfair seeding .
Though it might be quiiiiiiite long in EU due to the higher amount of teams (and what esl matches imply as time wasting)

malgaa
6th Sep 2015, 15:55
I've always found this to be an interesting topic. [...]

You made a good point and I agree with you, if boosted abilities are disabled in ESL they should be disabled in rankeds aswell and I don't think that's viable. So perhaps being able to disable these abilities in private lobbies could be a temporary thing like you said until they get properly balanced.

I think a good model to imitate would be Dirty Bomb's. In that game every class has a few prefixed loadouts or builds, each with its advantages and disadvantages which I think is much easier to balance. You can't get a customized build like in Nosgoth which is much harder to balance.

Bragii
6th Sep 2015, 20:42
I think the seeding each month should be based on the previous monthly finals and the seeding in the monthly finals should be based on how well each team have performed the previous month.

For example, in I Blame Hank we managed to get in the 4th, 2nd and 3rd place the first three weeks we played until the seeding system started to give us either Iron Fist or Real Pubstars in the quarter finals , two teams that we are not able to beat at the moment. We are clearly the 4th strongest team right now but the way the seeding works now we will barely make it to the semi finals in the future.

Another thought is, would it be fair for Pubstars who is the strongest team at the moment, if Evil Goats came back and took seed 3 from them?

I am indifferent whether or not we can keep our boosted stats on weapons/abilities since i honestly don't believe that is what stands between a win or a loss.

http://toolbox1.tedc.de/go4/nosgoth_cbcs_eu/

kLauE187
6th Sep 2015, 20:51
I think the seeding each month should be based on the previous monthly finals and the seeding in the monthly finals should be based on how well each team have performed the previous month.

For example, in I Blame Hank we managed to get in the 4th, 2nd and 3rd place the first three weeks we played until the seeding system started to give us either Iron Fist or Real Pubstars in the quarter finals , two teams that we are not able to beat at the moment. We are clearly the 4th strongest team right now but the way the seeding works now we will barely make it to the semi finals in the future.

Another thought is, would it be fair for Pubstars who is the strongest team at the moment, if Evil Goats came back and took seed 3 from them?

I am indifferent whether or not we can keep our boosted stats on weapons/abilities since i honestly don't believe that is what stands between a win or a loss.

http://toolbox1.tedc.de/go4/nosgoth_cbcs_eu/

I guess ESL-admins were just **** because i tried to get a fair seeding, then they reverted it back to the old one. Would take too much time to change the seeding every week, right? "We forgot it"... sure, forgetting to change seeding 4 weeks in a row even after you got reminded every week. We also got ripped off by a good amout of money in the past tournaments by "admins" like "I blame Hank" did but whatever. ESL is known to do whatever they want, look at csgo qualis they hosted and just removed whole games in the past to **** teams. why would you take such a seeding? Every decent team which gets new into the scene just plays a topteam every week. No wonder it doesn't raise in popularity.

Bazielim
6th Sep 2015, 22:45
Ok just a friendly reminder of the terms of use (http:// http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?f=97&a=1). I understand the frustrations but please keep it clean and constructive.

Vampmaster
6th Sep 2015, 23:26
@Malgaa, it's good to see some constructive feedback on this subject for a change. A lot of people up until now have just been pronouncing any imbalance in stat pros/cons as a intentional pay to win upgrade without actually attempting to give any detail on which ones give an unfair advantage/disadvantage. I only skimmed the first post in this thread, but the examples given were already more useful than just blind rage. I dont really have strong opinions on which negative stats are irrelivent, but I tend to prefer damage, speed, stopping power and stopping power resist. Maybe those just appear better, but I'm not the best at judging.

Saikocat
7th Sep 2015, 09:16
In relation to how seeding works, I will give the ESL team a heads up that it's being discussed, but it's best suited to go on their forum as it's not a game feature but entirely on the ESL side. I will send them a link to this thread so they're aware of the discussion and feedback, though.

Syluxxx
7th Sep 2015, 17:05
Agree with malga