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View Full Version : Deep Dive: Nosgoth Leagues Season 1



Saikocat
4th Sep 2015, 22:54
As you may be aware, we announced Nosgoth Leagues "Season 1" for October with both in-game rewards and cash prizes to go along with it. In the time since, we have also been listening very carefully to your feedback regarding Nosgoth competitive play -- so we wanted to let you know how we plan to incorporate it.

First, though, an update: Season 1 will now begin in December so that we can continue to adjust and improve the Nosgoth League competitive experience. And while the date of Season 1 is now moving back a few months, we are still sticking with our previous plans for player rewards starting in October, with a few tweaks based on your feedback.

Speaking of which, here's a quick League schedule and rewards chart for your clarification:



]

Name of Season
Date & Time
Rewards


Beta 1.2

September 9 – September 15
24 hours per day

Eternal = 3 x Chest Keys
Blood = 2 x Chest Keys
Gold = 1 x Chest Keys
All players who complete 5 ranked matches will receive the Leagues Player Banner if they haven’t already received this during the Alpha/Beta phases


Beta 1.3

September 22 – September 28
Times TBC

Eternal = 3 x Chest Keys
Blood = 2 x Chest Keys
Gold = 1 x Chest Keys
All players who complete 5 ranked matches will receive the Leagues Player Banner if they haven’t already received this during the Alpha/Beta phases


Beta 2

October 1 – October 31
Times TBC

Cash prizes for Eternal players
Total cash prize pool = $10,000
Leagues Skin (Bloody Victor Alchemist) for Blood and above
Eternal = 3 x Chest Keys
Blood = 2 x Chest Keys
Gold = 1 x Chest Keys
Avatar border for each tier
All players who complete 5 ranked matches will receive the Leagues Player Banner if they haven’t already received this during the Alpha/Beta phases


Beta 3

November 1 – November 30
Times TBC

Cash prizes for Eternal players
Total cash prize pool = $10,000
Exclusive content (TBC) for Blood and above
Eternal = 3 x Chest Keys
Blood = 2 x Chest Keys
Gold = 1 x Chest Keys
Avatar border for each tier
All players who complete 5 ranked matches will receive the Leagues Player Banner if they haven’t already received this during the Alpha/Beta phases


Season 1
December 1 – TBC
TBC



Please note that Beta 1.3 will be a Party Series as opposed to a Solo Series. During that Season players will be able to create or join parties of 2, 3 or 4 to play together against other parties. Players can still queue solo and will be matched accordingly. We’ll announce more on Season 1 rewards at a later date.

Our initial focus on the Solo series is to build interest in the competitive side of Nosgoth. Over the past few Alpha and Beta releases we’ve seen an increase in activity in both Ranked and Unranked play, from both hardcore players and new inductees alike. As the competitive scene continues to build interest in the gaming community, we believe this will in turn lead to more growth in the game, across the board, including the ESL tournaments.

Although it is a Solo series (for now), the same core tenants of Nosgoth remain. As such, those that do not play as a team will inevitably struggle to win matches and progress up the ladders, but nonetheless we understand the core of that concern and we’re taking that on board.

With the focus on Team play in mind we have decided to increase the cash prize pool for our ESL players to match that of Nosgoth Leagues for October ($10,000)! We’ll be keeping a very close eye on this scene so we can adapt it to grow the healthiest competitive scene for Nosgoth, in the absence of a Team Series within Nosgoth Leagues.

Aside from this, we know a lot of you had some specific questions, specifically in relation to ongoing issues/bugs with Leagues and about tools and punishments for players who might try to exploit the system. The Alpha and Beta phases have helped us identify a bunch of issues and bugs, a part of the release that’s really invaluable to us during development. It is also why we are extending that Beta to run further tests, and to make even more improvements to Leagues. The team are dedicated to bringing you all a League system that’s suitable to be released along with cash incentivised prizes. We may not get things right immediately, but we are (and will continue to) do everything we can to identify and fix issues when they arise.

A number of these issues can be broken down as follows:




Cheaters – Nosgoth uses the FairFight anti-cheat system, and is something we are monitoring very closely to ensure all hacks and cheats are covered by this system. For a short time before our August 13th patch, there was an exploit present that would have affected this, and allowed a hack to slip through their cracks. Anyone that has been found to use hacks/cheats is automatically disqualified from winning any prizes, and may be banned from the game. With cash prizes in place for the Eternal tier, anyone ranked in that tier is vetted by the system to ensure they haven’t used any hacks or cheats.


Rewarding skill and win ratio over grinding / hours played – We looked into this further to figure out the root of the frustration with this one. This perception comes in part due to how the UI displays your points gained. The UI (currently) doesn’t show the difference between League points you earn for your performance, and those received from the Bonus pool. The Bonus pool does award for playing, but it will only account for about 160 points over the course of a month, for instance. Compared to the couple of thousand that the top of the Eternal League would have, you can see this is a much smaller amount. Rising to the top of the board will still be defined by skill and performance, rather than pure number of hours put in.


Surrender option - Whilst a Surrender Vote isn’t an option we are currently implementing, we’re going to be adjusting the penalty system to alleviate some of the concerns in relation to imbalanced matches where player number are uneven following a leaver. Ahead of Beta 1.3 in September, after one person has quit/left a ranked match, the remaining players will not be punished for subsequent quitting/leaving of that match.


Appropriate punishment for leavers – Following our tweaks and tests during Alpha and Beta, the Leaver Penalty system for Beta 1.2 will break down as follows. Anyone that leaves a competitive match that is in progress will be given a 10 minute matchmaking ban, will be deducted 14 League points, will not be awarded any points from the bonus pool, and will not receive drops, gold or XP for that match.


Bug fixing / performance hot-fixing – Around the launch of Season 1, ensuring you have a smooth experience playing the game that does not result in lag or crashes is our top priority. On August 12th and 13th we pushed a few improvements that cleared up some of the micro-freezes players were reporting, but it continues to be our top priority to ensure that remaining stability issues are resolved, and bugs are squashed.


In game reporting - We are aware that Nosgoth doesn’t currently have in-game player reporting tools and we recognize that there is a need for such tools to operate a healthy community. Reporting tools are currently in development, however they will not be live for the start of Season 1. Until they are implemented, you can use our existing support centre to raise awareness to specific players or situations that you feel need our attention.


Unsporting Behaviour – As above, whilst reporting tools are in development players can use the existing support centre to raise awareness of such player behaviour.


Restricted timing of leagues – During our Alpha and Beta tests, League Rankings was available during a specific time window each day. We will test out running Leagues 24/7 for one week from September 9 and analyse the experience this offers. It is our goal for Seasons to run 24/7 from Season 1 onwards.


Farming – We received a few questions about the possibility of farming the system. With our League Ranking, the matchmaking within this feature is kept separate to the main matchmaking, to address any issues of that nature. The way points are awarded within the system, it also means that this would be ineffective at the higher levels.


Duo Queue – during Beta we had trialled a duo queue system in the Solo series. We will be trialling a Party Series for Beta 1.3 and analysing the feedback we get from players before making any decision as to what will feature for Season 1. Check out the table we posted above for detail on our upcoming tests, so once you’ve taken part in those test, we’d really love to hear what you thought of the matches you played.



Last but not least, we’d like to thank you for your continued feedback and support as Nosgoth continues to grow. Your feedback is critical in improving the experience for everyone in the community; from the weekend gamer to the dedicated teams. Nosgoth Leagues is just getting started and we’re so excited to see what the future holds.

Zarxiel93
4th Sep 2015, 23:29
Blood Rank for the skin? WHAT? But before you said Gold

vampirelucky
5th Sep 2015, 01:09
My guess is - there is concern that lots of people will get to Gold and will be less incentivized to buy skins with runestones. Which is indeed silly considering there will be the "light" version of the skin available for purchase with runestones. :rolleyes:

Also reducing the amount of keys doesn't make sense unless they actually increase the chance of getting something valuable.

Rago600
5th Sep 2015, 07:30
Appropriate punishment for leavers – Following our tweaks and tests during Alpha and Beta, the Leaver Penalty system for Beta 1.2 will break down as follows. Anyone that leaves a competitive match that is in progress will be given a 10 minute matchmaking ban, will be deducted 14 League points, will not be awarded any points from the bonus pool, and will not receive drops, gold or XP for that match.

This is what worries me the most, because the Game is not Rockstable
and punishes me for running out of VGA memory, i got a 6GB Vram...and 32 gig ddr4 Ram.
Which is really a thing to me, i love this Game but it did not had this Problem when the Game was younger.

Im fine with f2p thou.Ill support the Game.

ProDoctoR1987
5th Sep 2015, 09:49
Thank god for the 24H availability ! Here in Belgium most beta's/leagues where since the latest patches always between 19h-5h. So there is most of the time no time at all to play. Who's going to play after midnight anyhow or at 4 in the morning.

I had so much fun playing Flashpoint !

Saikocat
5th Sep 2015, 10:28
With regards to the skin, we looked over all the feedback we got as well as the analytics from our side to determine what to do with that. The skin is intended to be a high end reward, and during the beta test it proved to be easier to obtain than designed, and we actually got that feedback from a lot of players too. It's all part of the Beta-tweaking-process.

Da_Wolv
5th Sep 2015, 10:38
First of all thx for finally responding.

Now lets get to the meat of it:
Can you elaborate on the point-gain limit? I don't think I completely understand what you were trying to say there.
The bonus pool only hold 160 points a month, but how many points do you get per avarage for a win/loss, and how many of those bonus points are going to be part of that?

My dream scenario would be just a limit for matches per week that you can get ranked points for, but with a small community as it stands now thats not gonna be possible.

Another concern is the mixing of players regardless of tiers. Most of the matches I played were either 3v4 because someone left/crashed - or, arguably even worse, because one guy on the team was just miles outside of the skill range of the other 7 players, which severly impacts the game.
Is there anything you can say on that topic?

riccetto80
5th Sep 2015, 10:53
Some point don't address anything really and don't give a ETA at all.


Please note that Beta 1.3 will be a Party Series as opposed to a Solo Series. During that Season players will be able to create or join parties of 2, 3 or 4 to play together against other parties. Players can still queue solo and will be matched accordingly. We’ll announce more on Season 1 rewards at a later date.

This means 0, because also before was "matched accordingly" and anyway 90% of match of solo team vs 3-4 party was a one side stomp.


With the focus on Team play in mind we have decided to increase the cash prize pool for our ESL players to match that of Nosgoth Leagues for October ($10,000)! We’ll be keeping a very close eye on this scene so we can adapt it to grow the healthiest competitive scene for Nosgoth, in the absence of a Team Series within Nosgoth Leagues.

Still bad idea give prices for public ranked, was more intelligent give prizes only to ESL where there is more control, rules and so on.



[LIST]
Cheaters – Nosgoth uses the FairFight anti-cheat system, and is something we are monitoring very closely to ensure all hacks and cheats are covered by this system. For a short time before our August 13th patch, there was an exploit present that would have affected this, and allowed a hack to slip through their cracks. Anyone that has been found to use hacks/cheats is automatically disqualified from winning any prizes, and may be banned from the game. With cash prizes in place for the Eternal tier, anyone ranked in that tier is vetted by the system to ensure they haven’t used any hacks or cheats.

The anticheat must work togheter with ingame report system + manual check of suspect players, a anti-cheat alone with no ingame report will never be effective.



Rewarding skill and win ratio over grinding / hours played – We looked into this further to figure out the root of the frustration with this one. This perception comes in part due to how the UI displays your points gained. The UI (currently) doesn’t show the difference between League points you earn for your performance, and those received from the Bonus pool. The Bonus pool does award for playing, but it will only account for about 160 points over the course of a month, for instance. Compared to the couple of thousand that the top of the Eternal League would have, you can see this is a much smaller amount. Rising to the top of the board will still be defined by skill and performance, rather than pure number of hours put in.

no, is no perception, was player with terrible performance in-game who reach eternal because had 200/400 match done.
The rank was simple broken, maybe admit it is better instead of talk of "player perceptions" lol.

if you dont admit the mistake and that ylu are fixing it, means next ranked will be the same.



Surrender option - Whilst a Surrender Vote isn’t an option we are currently implementing

terrible and dumb choice, with no explained reason for it.


In game reporting - We are aware that Nosgoth doesn’t currently have in-game player reporting tools and we recognize that there is a need for such tools to operate a healthy community. Reporting tools are currently in development, however they will not be live for the start of Season 1. Until they are implemented, you can use our existing support centre to raise awareness to specific players or situations that you feel need our attention.

this is basically "yes whe know ingame report is needed, butwe will do anyway without it, because? "because **** yeah"...



Unsporting Behaviour – As above, whilst reporting tools are in development players can use the existing support centre to raise awareness of such player behaviour.

NO NO AND NO, the report trough support center is terrible long and difficult process, and i will not do work for you, are you kidding me keeping talk about this kind of report as viable option???

Endsequenz
5th Sep 2015, 11:14
As you may be aware...

Thank you, for this update and thread!

Zarxiel93
5th Sep 2015, 13:18
for the Beta 3, why you write TBC content? If you do the Hunter Blooy Victor skin and then the Alchimist Bloody Victor skin, I Think is quite obvius that "TBC" is the Scout Bloody Victor skin

Halpachino
5th Sep 2015, 14:29
First of all i still cant believe your denying that ranked is a grindfest its has nothing to do with U.I its the nature of the system that promotes time played over skill/win ratio.

Secondly 90% of us said no thanks to this silly solo que cash prize as it would draw a ton of cheaters and other problems but you still going ahead with it WHY ?
Your just artificially boosting nosgoths population with this and has nothing to do with fostering nosgoths competitive seen .
I link this again as i did when you announced this season thing http://web.archive.org/web/20141224123611/http://www.esports.gg/csgos-high-growth-rate-in-2014/ - THATS HOW YOU BOOST A POPULATION AND FOSTER A COMPETITIVE SEEN.

HexMee
5th Sep 2015, 15:14
I can't help but shake the feeling that this is basically a last ditch effort to throw all the money you have left at us and see if you magically get a 500k playerbase, and if not then RIP nosgoth... I hope I'm wrong.

On a more positive note, I like the idea of mixing parties of 2,3 or 4 players in the "solo" ladder. It works out for everyone, here is why:

New people will think they have a shot at getting a cash price because you can compete solo.
They will realize it's a constant uphill struggle playing with random people, so they join/create a team.
They realize they enjoy playing the game with the teammates they found and they get hooked on the game.

All while the prices go to the teams/players who are the best and deserve to win the most, perfect for everyone.

When you can queue as 4 it's technically not a solo ladder anymore, but it's also technically still a solo ladder because you can choose to queue solo if you feel like it ;)

Also, while the increased ESL funds for October is obviously super duper awesome news, could we get some clarification on that?
Is it added on top of the old prices or does it replace them? Will it be spread out between the weekly tournaments or is it only for the monthly finals? Is it 1st place only? etc etc..

kLauE187
5th Sep 2015, 16:05
lolwut 10k pricemoney for esl? never!

riccetto80
5th Sep 2015, 16:24
On a more positive note, I like the idea of mixing parties of 2,3 or 4 players in the "solo" ladder. It works out for everyone, here is why:

New people will think they have a shot at getting a cash price because you can compete solo.
They will realize it's a constant uphill struggle playing with random people, so they join/create a team.
They realize they enjoy playing the game with the teammates they found and they get hooked on the game.

NO!

as soon your start to create party you get angry and upset because to have a party you must invite and invite again and again duo bugs the same person, then not all are really join in party, then you must close and open again the game to try to get rid of the bug, then FINALLY after some try and restart you have your party of 3-4 working, you click search and took ages to find a match...

then one of the party crash, from 4 the party turn out be only 3, the teammates reload nosgoth but cannot be add to party properly, the party must be deleted and reinvite all from scrath, and so on...

time to time, all work as intended, but as soon you will add another one to party probable you will face the same issues.


this is the reality and i dont think from now till the end of the month, will change too much.
the party invite is still bugged as hell and will be also in next ranked.


I can't help but shake the feeling that this is basically a last ditch effort to throw all the money you have left at us and see if you magically get a 500k playerbase, and if not then RIP nosgoth... I hope I'm wrong.

Can explain why they push this BETA ranked with money prizes even if they admit the game need a ingame report who still missing and many others stuff to be added.

Gugulug5000
5th Sep 2015, 19:23
You have to get Blood league to get the skin now? What genius came up with that idea? Was it the same guy who decided the friend referral skins' qualifications? The keys don't even feel like a reward to me, considering most of the things inside the chests are complete garbage, so now the only way to get a legit reward is to get to Blood league. What I basically understood from the post: "We don't want you to think that we're just rewarding people for grinding, but we're going to make it so if you want a reward, you have to grind MORE."

I'm sure the ESL money comes as good news to people who are into that though. Leagues running 24/7 in the future is also good news.

This next bit may also come as a shock to some people, but I'm glad to see parties being able to participate next month (I'm hoping they can be used in later seasons as well). Before the first beta season of ranked, I really only ever played Nosgoth with my friends. When the first season started, we felt compelled to play ranked in order to get the skin, which made us all have to play solo, or in pairs of two for a time. To me, the game was no where near as fun while playing solo. With the recent adjustments to match ending, I don't think pub stomping should be too much of an issue since the games will end quickly now. If I can play with my buddies in upcoming seasons, blood rank may not be so bad, but if I have to do that solo, I don't think I'll even bother.

tl:dr - Some good news, some awful news. Blood league requirement is stupid.

HexMee
5th Sep 2015, 21:28
This next bit may also come as a shock to some people, but I'm glad to see parties being able to participate next month (I'm hoping they can be used in later seasons as well). Before the first beta season of ranked, I really only ever played Nosgoth with my friends. When the first season started, we felt compelled to play ranked in order to get the skin, which made us all have to play solo, or in pairs of two for a time. To me, the game was no where near as fun while playing solo. With the recent adjustments to match ending, I don't think pub stomping should be too much of an issue since the games will end quickly now. If I can play with my buddies in upcoming seasons, blood rank may not be so bad, but if I have to do that solo, I don't think I'll even bother.

Completely agreed, when I had 2 friends online I basically had to pick who I wanted to play with because we could only queue up as 2 max, extremely annoying.

The whole argumentation against "pub stomping" has a small bit of substance to it when we're talking about casual public games, I can understand to some extent that people get frustrated when they're queueing up alone for a fun game and gets destroyed by an entire team playing together.
The argument becomes absolute void once we're discussing RANKED leagues though. The whole idea of playing in the ladder is to prove that you're the best, if you lose against someone you don't have the right to whine about stacking. The enemy team, just as yourself is there to win at all cost and utilizing teamwork happens to be a very effective way of achieving victory.

LOFO1993
5th Sep 2015, 22:56
I still don't understand the point of a cash prize this big and this poorly managed (the arguments against it being a grindfest are not a "perception", at least not until you bother to properly dissect how many point are given how and when) for a game that is barely working as intended. I never will, and I think it's gonna be wasted money in the best case scenario, and it will backfire hard on Nosgoth in the worst. I have no idea who came up with this to begin with and what was its supposed purpose in his/her mind, but you're running on a very thin line.

If this mess of a situation hits mainstream gaming outlets the wrong way you will find in an indefensible position with the public, and this will basically brand the game as a scam forever in the mind of countless gamers. As I already said in the past I really don't think it is and that is your intention, but that's exactly the feeling you get looking at it from the outside: nobody publishes an half broken free-to-play title that barely cares to improve significantly over long periods of times, and then carelessly pays random people to play it while lacking proper control tools and an infrastrucure to manage the inevitable issues such a move will cause.


Best of luck to all of you guys, but this is a pointlessly wrong move if I've ever seen one.

Harmaatukka
6th Sep 2015, 12:26
Rewarding skill and win ratio over grinding / hours played

I think you meant that you are sugar coating it further, not that you actually looked into it? You are creating a "feel good" environment here that will just blow up in your face later.

1. If team A has more wins than team B, team A is better? False.
- Just winning games should give you no gain in ranks at all if you lose more than you win, unless of course the teams above you in rank lose even more.

2. If team A has better win/loss ratio than B, A is better? False.
- Team A that has won 100 matches out 100, is not an indication of any sort that it's better than a team B that has won 80 games out of 100. Why? Because team A could have won all its games against easier opponents.

3. If team A beats team B, team A is the better team? True.

I suggest the following.
Every player starts the ranked with monthly point pool, let's say 10 000 points. For each game you play you will bet a number of your points, depending on what your tier is.
Ie. Bronze: 5 points
Silver: 10 points
Gold: 20 points
Blood: 50 points
Eternal: 100 points

So in a game of 4 Eternals vs 4 Eternals, the bet would be 100 per player, 400 per team, 800 points in total, the winner takes it all, the points are then shared evenly by the winning team. Absolutely no "feel good" points are rewarded for either team, if you lose, you lose.

In a game of 4 Eternals vs 4 Bronze, the bet would be 5 per player. 20 per team, 40 points in total. Here's the twist though, the lower ranked player is allowed to have an option to bet the maximum points on the match if he chooses to do so, a player using this option is considered eternal and his bet is matched against the highest ranking player of the opposing team.

In a game of mixed ranks, the betting starts from top to bottom, highest ranked players bet against each other. So for example, if the highest rank on the other team is Eternal, but the other team has only Blood they will bet 40 points against each other, unless the Blood player is using the maximum bet option, in that case he's considered Eternal and the bet is 100 points.

This is just an idea that took me less than an hour to come up with and I will bet my soul that it's better than what the current system is. The real question is, are you actually trying to create a competitive scene and game, or just promoting grinding and rewarding players that play your game the most.

TheDreamcrusher
6th Sep 2015, 14:47
The argument becomes absolute void once we're discussing RANKED leagues though. The whole idea of playing in the ladder is to prove that you're the best, if you lose against someone you don't have the right to whine about stacking. The enemy team, just as yourself is there to win at all cost and utilizing teamwork happens to be a very effective way of achieving victory.

This is why I didn't understand that Psyonix was using match wins to determine someone's rank. If it's a solo ranked league, why aren't personal metrics being used? I'm guessing it's the same reason as back when the current MMR system was put in; the tools for personal metrics don't exist and aren't being worked on.

Equanimityjohn
6th Sep 2015, 21:46
Season 1 will now begin in December so that we can continue to adjust and improve the Nosgoth League competitive experience. And while the date of Season 1 is now moving back a few months, we are still sticking with our previous plans for player rewards starting in October, with a few tweaks based on your feedback.
Pushing back the launch date is the wisest decision I've seen the team make so far in the development, second only maybe to the breath of fresh air which is this whole post. It's nice that you've actually spent the time to write all this up and communicate with your community (not that it is necessarily difficult to do that like this, often even). Posts like this are what keeps the community engaged and show us that you actually care what we think of your development choices. Up until this point it has felt like this has been extremely lacking. Hopefully posts like this can occur with much more frequency. However it is questionable if you really do read our feedback, because last I recall there was an overwhelming majority of people against the idea of cash prizes in ranked in general, and yet here we are.


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About the skin requiring Blood instead of Gold now: (and prizes in general)
I completely agree with this change. The skin should feel really exclusive, and if it only takes Gold to unlock then it isn't really going to be all that exclusive as the "skill" it takes to get in to Gold is only the skill of playing consistently, made only easier by playing even slightly well. As for the rest of the prizes, the cash still seems extreme to me, and much better invested in ESL, and/or hiring a temporary developer (even) and having them help fix some of the technical debt I'm sure has accrued over the past year for the game. Honestly "Ranked" is the one that should have the exorbitant weekly Runestone prizes as ESL does now, and the cash should go to ESL. Currently the keys are almost entirely worthless. If they were instead replaced with the high-tier chests then I'm sure this would help motivate a lot of the players to earn them and satisfy their desire for better rewards in general in Ranked.




Please note that Beta 1.3 will be a Party Series as opposed to a Solo Series. During that Season players will be able to create or join parties of 2, 3 or 4 to play together against other parties. Players can still queue solo and will be matched accordingly. We’ll announce more on Season 1 rewards at a later date.
A party series sounds like it would be fun, though never should it be a substitute for a solo series, rather as an additional league all together, in my opinion. I worry too the method by which you will match parties "accordingly". If it is similar to the current MMR system for unranked where parties simply get higher MMR then it isn't fair to those players whom naturally have a higher solo queue MMR. It seems like the "matchmaking" for ranked right now is completely chaotic, with bronze and eternal players playing together VERY frequently, which really is a complete turn off from playing at all, not to mention hardly competitive at all. It becomes a battle of who can carry harder, instead of which team can actually function as a unit better. In a team-based game this definition of "skill" is incredibly lackluster and ill-fitting, especially for "ranked" (even if it is a "solo queue").



Our initial focus on the Solo series is to build interest in the competitive side of Nosgoth. Over the past few Alpha and Beta releases we’ve seen an increase in activity in both Ranked and Unranked play, from both hardcore players and new inductees alike. As the competitive scene continues to build interest in the gaming community, we believe this will in turn lead to more growth in the game, across the board, including the ESL tournaments.
I know that ranked is certainly going to be bringing a lot of new players in, but the level of presentation, the "fairness" of the formatting, and the consistency and level with which these leagues reward players are the vital aspects to retaining these newly active (even if longtime players) players.



With the focus on Team play in mind we have decided to increase the cash prize pool for our ESL players to match that of Nosgoth Leagues for October ($10,000)! We’ll be keeping a very close eye on this scene so we can adapt it to grow the healthiest competitive scene for Nosgoth, in the absence of a Team Series within Nosgoth Leagues.
This is a great move. Frankly, an idea that should have been precedent of the introduction of such huge cash prizes to the in-game "ranked". 4v4 organized teams are far more indicative of truly competitive players and play in general in such a team-based game as Nosgoth. I would hope that, if the money really is there to be thrown around in such a fashion as it appears it is being with "ranked", that this kind of prize money for ESL would become standard, and the prize money for "ranked", if necessary, be reduced in order to accommodate that fact. The best esports teams in the world go where the money is, and with them come their massive fanbases. If you want a truly massive influx of players then prioritizing ESL over Ranked so far as prizes and even some development decisions goes is certainly the way to go. If you really want to "hear" your community's opinions about what needs to be done in ESL I recommend this post (featuring several community polls) I made quite some time ago and recently updated: Optimize ESL! (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=155880)



Rewarding skill and win ratio over grinding / hours played – We looked into this further to figure out the root of the frustration with this one. This perception comes in part due to how the UI displays your points gained. The UI (currently) doesn’t show the difference between League points you earn for your performance, and those received from the Bonus pool. The Bonus pool does award for playing, but it will only account for about 160 points over the course of a month, for instance. Compared to the couple of thousand that the top of the Eternal League would have, you can see this is a much smaller amount. Rising to the top of the board will still be defined by skill and performance, rather than pure number of hours put in.
I'm quite okay with the ranked system functioning in this manner, though only so far as the punishment for losing is a bit steeper, relative to how much higher/lower the "rank" of the opposing team's players is than your own. It seems that it's impossible not to grind up points just by playing consistently up until about 1500 - 2000 points (Eternal) for now, while once you've got that many points losses start to actually effect you. This seems like too high of a threshold. I would hope that losses really effect you from Silver and up, at least to some degree. It shouldn't be "a matter of time" to get in to gold and blood league which is, as of the latest iteration, exactly the case.



Surrender option - Whilst a Surrender Vote isn’t an option we are currently implementing, we’re going to be adjusting the penalty system to alleviate some of the concerns in relation to imbalanced matches where player number are uneven following a leaver. Ahead of Beta 1.3 in September, after one person has quit/left a ranked match, the remaining players will not be punished for subsequent quitting/leaving of that match.
This is a good idea. It's a bandaid for the problem of constant leavers, but it's a bandaid that stops the bleeding well.


Bug fixing / performance hot-fixing – Around the launch of Season 1, ensuring you have a smooth experience playing the game that does not result in lag or crashes is our top priority. On August 12th and 13th we pushed a few improvements that cleared up some of the micro-freezes players were reporting, but it continues to be our top priority to ensure that remaining stability issues are resolved, and bugs are squashed.
Again, a great thought. Prioritizing the infrastructure of the game at this point is certainly key, especially since you're trying to work it up to a highly respectable level of competitive play. Don't forget to fix up and improve NosCam. It's quintessential in order for spectators to truly understand what is happening and to do so with as much polish as possible.


In game reporting - We are aware that Nosgoth doesn’t currently have in-game player reporting tools and we recognize that there is a need for such tools to operate a healthy community. Reporting tools are currently in development, however they will not be live for the start of Season 1. Until they are implemented, you can use our existing support centre to raise awareness to specific players or situations that you feel need our attention.
Getting this feature out is certainly a good idea. Likewise, a kind of "+reputation" feature for the well behaved players would be a good idea too. Getting this feature out in time for ranked to really kick off isn't necessary, though would certainly be very ideal.


Restricted timing of leagues – During our Alpha and Beta tests, League Rankings was available during a specific time window each day. We will test out running Leagues 24/7 for one week from September 9 and analyse the experience this offers. It is our goal for Seasons to run 24/7 from Season 1 onwards.
I understand the need to not have the leagues running 24/7 as much as I understand the want for the opposite. Either direction with this decision works out in some ways, so I can't really argue for or against it.



Farming – We received a few questions about the possibility of farming the system. With our League Ranking, the matchmaking within this feature is kept separate to the main matchmaking, to address any issues of that nature. The way points are awarded within the system, it also means that this would be ineffective at the higher levels.
Currently, those "higher levels" really only feel like Eternal, because before you get in to Eternal, getting in to Blood with a 50% or less win ratio is quite possible, if only you play enough games.


For a "Deep Dive" in to more of my personal observations, opinions, and ideas to help Nosgoth improve I recommend my post: Ideas to make Nosgoth more popular (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=155229)

Sasha_Vykos
7th Sep 2015, 07:40
I don't like the idea of money prizes for ranked leagues, but we already discussed it in another topic (and it seemed to me that many players have the same idea) but you still choose to implement it.

Having said that, I can't really understand how can you say that the system doesn't reward grinding but skill.. can you please elaborate it a bit? Because the "bonus pool" thing doesn't seems enough.. if you play 24/7 playing average games and win let's say 50% of the games, you will be still in a higher position than a better player that play less but win more in percentage. I really like the idea of Harmaatukka here, seems fair.

Another concern is that solo/party system. This is a team based game and I like 100% more to play with friends than alone.. it's a completely different thing..please don't force us to play solo all day long to reach eternal.. if you implement a solo system, party system is almost done cause everyone will try to achieve przes, skins, leagues; at least this is what happened to me when the alpha and beta were out. Consider also this.. if this will be direction of the game, players that like to play in party can loose interest in the game.

I like new ESL money prizes.. the best players should be able to earn that money: that is the real competitive scene, not the ranked leagues, and I appreciate also other adjustment such as in game reporting and the fact that players don't get penalty to leave a 3 vs 4 lost match. I still prefer something to fix the 3 vs 4 matches but this is better than before at least.

Da_Wolv
7th Sep 2015, 08:07
Pushing back the launch date is the wisest decision I've seen the team make so far in the development [...]

Well, all they did was call what was previously Season 1 "Beta 2". No changes have been made, its just a different name. Talk about red herings.

Equanimityjohn
7th Sep 2015, 08:10
Well, all they did was call what was previously Season 1 "Beta 2". No changes have been made, its just a different name. Talk about red herings.

Ohh... you're correct. They fooled me for sure. :P

Hellboy_007
7th Sep 2015, 10:31
Mix groups and solo players in the league is a crazy idea.
It is necessary to divide the league finally. Who likes solo, let him play solo. Who likes to play with your friends, let them play with friends. Combining them does not work. Even 2-3 players in the party have a great advantage over the solo players.

Solo players can resist the group only if each has a much better gaming skill.

KaininitePriestess
7th Sep 2015, 14:58
So much anger in this thread, holy cow. Ono

I'm really happy to see that the leagues are going to run 24/7 for the next beta! I just started my new job, working my most beloved, holy-grail of a shift, and that's 4 10-hour days from 10PM to 9AM, which means that I'd probably have to be asleep most of the time the Beta time was set to run if it had been on a schedule before! Now I can have my dream job and still play the leagues! :D

I don't understand the complaints people have. It's still a trial and error, and as long as the people who are in Eternal are going to be personally checked to ensure they aren't cheating, it should hopefully curb a lot of the hacking, which is good. :)

riccetto80
8th Sep 2015, 00:34
search cure for cancer or hiv is trial and error, do a online game, f2p and have a competitive community is not a trial and error, is a things many company do since many time, you must only follow the footsteps, is not something totally new no one know about.

other already have do the trial and error process and all wrong thing to avoid to do are already know.

think the dev are going to do trial and error is an offense to their professionalism and their work experience.

about eternal being check

1- no, will not cut the hacking
2- no, the dev will not have the manpower to do manual check to 100/150 or how many player will enter in the eternal...

Blackdeathteal
8th Sep 2015, 11:16
Not sure how I feel about this , unless we can get a oceanic based league without the price money and better times . These arenas usually start at 3 am and well into peak work times IF Im lucky I can get a few weekend matches in at 200 + ping ...

KaininitePriestess
8th Sep 2015, 11:17
Actually, development has a lot of things that require trial and error. That's why Beta periods are required. You can change one value to fix one problem, and because of the ways that things interact with each other in the software, it can sometimes effect things that are unexpected, so you have to go back and try again. It's not insulting the devs at all, I have a lot of respect for what they do! They can look at numbers and codes and see things that I could never understand, and they're able to puzzle out things far more complicated then I ever could. I can't even wrap my brain around it!

And they just said that they're going to be checking the Eternal-tier players to make sure they aren't cheating. I trust them to do what they say they're doing.

riccetto80
8th Sep 2015, 22:07
And they just said that they're going to be checking the Eternal-tier players to make sure they aren't cheating. I trust them to do what they say they're doing.

You dont ask yourself how they will check? is enough they says they will check? this solve the problem? lol

anyway you contradict yourself, if the check will happen only to eternal player, the player need to cheat, and reach eternal to be caught, so will cheat in a good amount of match before be checked...

and when happen the check? when the league finish and player must receive the prizes? this mean this will not discourage cheaters at all to cheat during all the ranked league and get caught only when the league finish.

and so on...

KaininitePriestess
9th Sep 2015, 06:00
If they get to the Eternal rankings by cheating and then stop cheating once they're there so they don't get caught, then they'll get kicked out of Eternal fairly quickly by the people who actually got their because they've got the skill needed to stay in Eternal.

Look, there will always be cheaters and hackers. It's a never-ending battle between devs and dishonest people in every aspect of our modern, digital age. But they're doing things to help curb it and stop it. Let's not look a gift-horse in the mouth and scream about how they're not doing enough.

kLauE187
9th Sep 2015, 12:00
If they get to the Eternal rankings by cheating and then stop cheating once they're there so they don't get caught, then they'll get kicked out of Eternal fairly quickly by the people who actually got their because they've got the skill needed to stay in Eternal.
Thanks to this activity-bonus you barely loose points even in long sessions if you loose alot of games in a row. Activity>skill, which means getting into eternal has nothing to do with skill but who is able to grind a lot. Obvious a good winrate helps, but not enough to make skill/winrate that important.


Look, there will always be cheaters and hackers. It's a never-ending battle between devs and dishonest people in every aspect of our modern, digital age. But they're doing things to help curb it and stop it. Let's not look a gift-horse in the mouth and scream about how they're not doing enough.
FairFight doesn't even ban ragehacker with 100% accuracy after 1 game. And i doubt it can catch wallhacks (which is way more useful in nosgoth than an aimbot). Aim-assists will probably stay undetected too. It took Valve over 1 year for csgo to get decent amount of ban-waves going to stop the cheaterproblem, but they will never catch everyone. No offense but psyonix has not the ressources to deal with cheaters if it really gets a huge problem when they release ranked with pricemoney.

KaininitePriestess
9th Sep 2015, 16:50
Thanks to this activity-bonus you barely loose points even in long sessions if you loose alot of games in a row. Activity>skill, which means getting into eternal has nothing to do with skill but who is able to grind a lot. Obvious a good winrate helps, but not enough to make skill/winrate that important.


FairFight doesn't even ban ragehacker with 100% accuracy after 1 game. And i doubt it can catch wallhacks (which is way more useful in nosgoth than an aimbot). Aim-assists will probably stay undetected too. It took Valve over 1 year for csgo to get decent amount of ban-waves going to stop the cheaterproblem, but they will never catch everyone. No offense but psyonix has not the ressources to deal with cheaters if it really gets a huge problem when they release ranked with pricemoney.

The activity bonus can be depleted after a certain number of matches a day, and it's effected by how well you did in the match. Maybe I'm just bitter, but I honestly don't think anyone who uses cheats and hacks enough to get into Eternal ranking will be able to play for **** when they turn those hacks off and have to play against people who actually know wtf they're doing.

Every time I've seen a hacker get called out in a match and subsequently turn those hacks off, their performance has absolutely tanked. Or someone who's got an aimbot or a wallhack and is murdering it as a human will be absolutely deplorable as a vampire when they can't get in close enough to use the aimbotter because they don't have the skills and knowledge to actually play properly and not just run in and get completely slaughtered.

Either way, even if there are hackers that get through, the devs are trying. They've explained before that the prize money and things of that nature aren't even decided by them, they're decided by Square, so it's not like they're just throwing money out to draw people in without caring about the quality of the game they're trying to develop. I just honestly don't know why people have to be so hostile toward them. They're doing their best.

kLauE187
10th Sep 2015, 10:57
The activity bonus can be depleted after a certain number of matches a day, and it's effected by how well you did in the match.
That's not true at all. Win or loose decides how many points you get, nothing else. Which is fine, because it's TEAM-deathmatch. Doesn't change the fact that getting into eternal doesn't mean much, it just says this guy played a lot of games. Or how it comes people with 30% winrate got into eternal last beta? It's a grindfest and most people can just avoid most good players with dodging lobbies without punishment.


Every time I've seen a hacker get called out in a match and subsequently turn those hacks off, their performance has absolutely tanked. Or someone who's got an aimbot or a wallhack and is murdering it as a human will be absolutely deplorable as a vampire when they can't get in close enough to use the aimbotter because they don't have the skills and knowledge to actually play properly and not just run in and get completely slaughtered.
I guess 99% of the people you accuse of "hacking" have just decent aim from other fps. I barely see any except the typical ragehacker, maybe you just lack game knowledge. Also they're cheater not hacker, i doubt they make their cheats himself. Hacker are the people who start to make private paid hacks when it could be worth, so like when they start ranked with 10k$ pricemoney. And sadly i don't think they will get detected.

KaininitePriestess
10th Sep 2015, 12:20
That's not true at all. Win or loose decides how many points you get, nothing else. Which is fine, because it's TEAM-deathmatch. Doesn't change the fact that getting into eternal doesn't mean much, it just says this guy played a lot of games. Or how it comes people with 30% winrate got into eternal last beta? It's a grindfest and most people can just avoid most good players with dodging lobbies without punishment.


I guess 99% of the people you accuse of "hacking" have just decent aim from other fps. I barely see any except the typical ragehacker, maybe you just lack game knowledge. Also they're cheater not hacker, i doubt they make their cheats himself. Hacker are the people who start to make private paid hacks when it could be worth, so like when they start ranked with 10k$ pricemoney. And sadly i don't think they will get detected.

The devs explained it themselves in another thread, the bonus pool is depleted the more you play, so that after a while, you'll be losing up to 14 points for a lost match unless you're doing really well. your own score plays into this, though, so if you do well even if your team loses, then you'll lose less points then if you'd done poorly.

And really, we're talking semantics here, cheater, hacker, whatever they are, they are people who were very obviously using hacks and when they were called out on it, they stopped and their performance went down. I've seen good players and I've seen hackers. I've got 700 hours and I'm level 50, so please don't insult my intelligence, I know how the game works. I don't call "hax" unless it's absolutely blatant because I know how good some people can be, and I've seen how laughable it is when people accuse regular players of hacking. I've had it happen to me.

uNborn-
10th Sep 2015, 16:43
I can't believe you still think its a good idea to throw 10k at a bunch of grinding pubbies. Takes forever to rank up. Even if you destroy "high level eternals" (if they don't dodge you) you continue to snail your way up the ladder. 2 out of my only 3 losses came from people leaving at launch and then the wonderful 3v4 occurs.

Been around the competitive fps gaming scene a long time. Please take a second and look at the entire idea. Skins, runestones, etc fine. But don't waste your money on this.

ProDoctoR1987
10th Sep 2015, 17:48
I can't believe you still think its a good idea to throw 10k at a bunch of grinding pubbies. Takes forever to rank up. Even if you destroy "high level eternals" (if they don't dodge you) you continue to snail your way up the ladder. 2 out of my only 3 losses came from people leaving at launch and then the wonderful 3v4 occurs.

Been around the competitive fps gaming scene a long time. Please take a second and look at the entire idea. Skins, runestones, etc fine. But don't waste your money on this.

I think it's a great initiative.

But 3vs4 does suck. Maybe a "freez" period is needed befor the 2nd round starts untill the teams are 4vs4 again. Or a BOT get's added to the game that has the level of the average of the other players in the team where it is needed.

uNborn-
10th Sep 2015, 22:24
I think it's a great initiative.

But 3vs4 does suck. Maybe a "freez" period is needed befor the 2nd round starts untill the teams are 4vs4 again. Or a BOT get's added to the game that has the level of the average of the other players in the team where it is needed.


LoL


A great iniative would be to put the money into a team based league where actual skill gets rewarded.

riccetto80
10th Sep 2015, 22:28
Actually, development has a lot of things that require trial and error.

yes but not the basic one

Jarvz1
10th Sep 2015, 23:23
The league point system is still ridiculous. You should LOSE points for losing. It makes sense that you should accumulate points for consecutive wins, such that a player that is 21-28 (w/l) is higher than someone who is 1-0 (w/l). However, this does not imply you should just continue to gain points. Here is a screenshot to illustrate my point. I clearly have more wins and a better ratio, yet because the other player lost more games, I am tied with them... Seriously consider improving the point system.
http://i.imgur.com/zyB8ygC.png

kLauE187
11th Sep 2015, 01:44
The league point system is still ridiculous. You should LOSE points for losing. It makes sense that you should accumulate points for consecutive wins, such that a player that is 21-28 (w/l) is higher than someone who is 1-0 (w/l). However, this does not imply you should just continue to gain points. Here is a screenshot to illustrate my point. I clearly have more wins and a better ratio, yet because the other player lost more games, I am tied with them... Seriously consider improving the point system.

But it's no grindfest, confirmed on dev-stream!

AdmiralPPR
11th Sep 2015, 06:49
Here is a screenshot to illustrate my point. I clearly have more wins and a better ratio, yet because the other player lost more games, I am tied with them... Seriously consider improving the point system.


You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)

Harmaatukka
11th Sep 2015, 10:06
You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.


I'd be very interested to understand what this mystical "somehow" is, and how they manage to calculate it.



So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

Doesn't that just mean that the entire system is broken, if it puts teams of significantly unequal skill against each other.

AdmiralPPR
11th Sep 2015, 13:40
I'd be very interested to understand what this mystical "somehow" is, and how they manage to calculate it.

I suspect something ELO-related



Doesn't that just mean that the entire system is broken, if it puts teams of significantly unequal skill against each other.
It just means, that the player base is still too low :/

Jarvz1
12th Sep 2015, 01:07
You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)

This doesn't even make sense. Even if I had 23 wins versus less qualified players and he had 22 wins against more qualified players, he still didn't lose points for extra losses. YOU SHOULD LOSE POINTS FOR LOSING.

kLauE187
12th Sep 2015, 01:17
http://i.imgur.com/8q5mgiz.png

Ryugan34
12th Sep 2015, 01:20
You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)

Thats indeed how elo works . Except you forgot to add that players gains small amount points when winning against lower ranked players, with Elo system . And it doesnt seem to be the case on nosgoth's leagues .
Following your example, based on Elo system, if team A loses, they loses a small amount of points, because it was obvious they would lose . On the other hand, team B gains a small amount of points, because they were expected to win .
Using nosgoth's league : Team B still wins 14 points . = Grindfest time baby

Also, they never said anything about league based on ELO rating . Which would make more sense than the one they are actually using and is totally flawed .
Elo works because it makes the higher players actually lose points when losing, and not gaining as much as lower ranked players when winning, which isnt the case atm, thus making this league a grindfest .

Edit : if their system is using some kind of Elo rating, the daily points bonus defeats the whole purpose of Elo system and needs to go away .

kLauE187
12th Sep 2015, 10:44
They just try to force people to play ranked daily with this activity-bonus. But then you get bugs like this 3 windows popping up every time when you start nosgoth + a crash after every game. How can get this bugs live without getting tested? Don't understand this... also since first ranked got tested absolutely nothing has changed, still this annoying lobby-dodging etc. This will be fun when team-ranked gets tested, never get into a game. YEAHHHH

wortelriandu
12th Sep 2015, 12:45
They just try to force people to play ranked daily with this activity-bonus. But then you get bugs like this 3 windows popping up every time when you start nosgoth + a crash after every game. How can get this bugs live without getting tested? Don't understand this... also since first ranked got tested absolutely nothing has changed, still this annoying lobby-dodging etc. This will be fun when team-ranked gets tested, never get into a game. YEAHHHH

So true, they should fix that **** first. And now whenever you go to league tab gamecrash, which means a crash after every ranked match. This is anoying and it will drive people off the game if it continues.
Fix the problems first then move into the fancy stuff.

Hellboy_007
13th Sep 2015, 18:04
http://i.imgur.com/zyB8ygC.png

23/25.
You simply lucky :scratch:

I can't win 2 vs 3 and 2 vs 4 or 3 vs 5.

Jarvz1
14th Sep 2015, 06:10
If any devs are following this forum I have some opinions about beta 1.3. Since this will be a "party-centric" league testing phase I think there are a few needed elements:

1. When grouped as 4, and facing another group of 4, a "queue-dodge" should count as a forfeit, giving a win and loss appropriately to all members.
Rationale: Queue dodging is already a large part of leagues. Lobbies take forever to start because of this and some glitches related to last second queue dodging have been abused.

2. When losing a match, you should lose a more significant amount of points.
Rationale: This has nothing to do with the party-centric aspect, just in general I think leagues is too "grindy" since you can lose games and gain points.

3. There needs to be a shot clock. For example, set a timer such that vampires have 3 minutes to either give or receive damage. The clock resets on either of these events. (obviously ignore self damage....)
Rationale: This will reduce roof camping and boring drawn out games. 3 minutes is already the timer in ESL, why not make it part of leagues.

4. A forfeit vote, requiring all current team members to forfeit in the same voting session. (If all teammates are present, it would take 4 votes to forfeit. If all your teammates already left the match, your 1 vote should forfeit the match. Votes can be cast every 2 minutes and last 30 seconds. No response is considered a vote against forfeiting. Votes cannot be cast until 5 minutes into the first round. Buttons F1 and F4 could be used, for instance. Dialog screen should be small an non-intrusive {maybe an audio queue, maybe part of the chat box -> LoL})
Rationale: Players need a way to surrender, rather than just leave the lobby and accept an increasing penalty. This may reduce queue dodging and shorten "one-sided" games.

Da_Wolv
14th Sep 2015, 08:53
1. When grouped as 4, and facing another group of 4, a "queue-dodge" should count as a forfeit, giving a win and loss appropriately to all members.
Rationale: Queue dodging is already a large part of leagues. Lobbies take forever to start because of this and some glitches related to last second queue dodging have been abused.


Why so complicated? Just remove lobbies in ranked already! That way people can't dodge lobbies they dislike, and everything is dandy.
..well not everything... actually hardly anything... nevermind.
Still though, lobbies are not needed in ranked.

Saikocat
14th Sep 2015, 10:50
Hi all,

Just wanted to address a few questions to hopefully clarify a few things :)




Can you elaborate on the point-gain limit? I don't think I completely understand what you were trying to say there.
The bonus pool only hold 160 points a month, but how many points do you get per avarage for a win/loss, and how many of those bonus points are going to be part of that?

In relation to the bonus pool, I'll have to defer to Jonathan's expertise so he can expand on it for you guys, I've given him a heads up about the posts/questions.



Another concern is the mixing of players regardless of tiers. Most of the matches I played were either 3v4 because someone left/crashed - or, arguably even worse, because one guy on the team was just miles outside of the skill range of the other 7 players, which severly impacts the game.
Is there anything you can say on that topic?

Jonathan may be able to add to this, but it is designed to match you with people of a similar skill level, but this will depend on players that are online. In general with the matchmaking, if it doesn't find a suitable match in a reasonable time frame, it expands out to find you a match beyond that.



Still bad idea give prices for public ranked, was more intelligent give prizes only to ESL where there is more control, rules and so on.


Per the announcement we are going to be increasing the prize fund with ESL matches to cater to the team-based nature of that tournament, but the Solo Series will exist alongside that, and caters to a different kind of player. It will also (as the blog mentioned) draw in more new players.



The anticheat must work togheter with ingame report system + manual check of suspect players, a anti-cheat alone with no ingame report will never be effective.

In-game reporting is coming, it just won't be ready in time for October 1st. Anti-cheat, automatic checking of top players, and manual checking of suspect players will all still be happening. Reporting players to Customer Support isn't as quick as an in-game reporting system would be, but it doesn't take long, and the only thing that's *essential* to include is a link to the suspect player's profile.




Also, while the increased ESL funds for October is obviously super duper awesome news, could we get some clarification on that?
Is it added on top of the old prices or does it replace them? Will it be spread out between the weekly tournaments or is it only for the monthly finals? Is it 1st place only? etc etc..

The ESL/we will be sharing more info on that soon, stay tuned! We'll post a separate thread with the details for everyone to make sure it doesn't get missed :)


You have to get Blood league to get the skin now?

The special reward skin within Leagues is intended to be an exclusive reward, something you can win by hitting a high rank and can show off your skill level with. Once our Beta ended (where we awarded the Hunter skin) we looked at both the feedback and the stats on our side to see if that was working as intended, and the skin turned out to be easier to obtain than was designed.


Well, all they did was call what was previously Season 1 "Beta 2". No changes have been made, its just a different name. Talk about red herings.

I'm not sure how it's a red herring when we are open and clear about the schedule :)
Season 1 is the full launch of Leagues, but as we already announced we'd be doing prizes, we didn't want to take that away from everyone so we're going ahead with those. There are more improvements to come to Leagues, and they'll hit for our Season 1 launch.

Saikocat
14th Sep 2015, 10:56
Actually, development has a lot of things that require trial and error. That's why Beta periods are required.

This is exactly spot on! :)


You dont ask yourself how they will check? is enough they says they will check? this solve the problem?

I can appreciate that you want detail on how this will work, but I'm sure you can also appreciate that this isn't information we can give out, as giving hackers information on how our system works only serves to compromise it.
Players ranked in Eternal will be automatically checked more thoroughly than others, so if someone places in that league and is using a cheat/hack, they'll get caught quickly, and they won't be eligible to win anything.
The ins and outs of how our anti-cheat system works exactly is not something we're going to post about, I'm afraid. It is not something hackers should know anything about.

Da_Wolv
14th Sep 2015, 16:35
I'm not sure how it's a red herring when we are open and clear about the schedule :)
Season 1 is the full launch of Leagues, but as we already announced we'd be doing prizes, we didn't want to take that away from everyone so we're going ahead with those. There are more improvements to come to Leagues, and they'll hit for our Season 1 launch.

Well - You announce Season 1 with all the features, THEN you say it will be pushed back, but all that has been pushed back is the "Season 1" Title, not the features. I get that you were disclosing that, too, but still...
If you can't see how thats at least a little bit bait and switch, idk what is.

@Everyone: I think it was clear a month ago that this is happening, so lets try and make the best of it, as stupid as it is-.

Psyonix_Ryan
14th Sep 2015, 18:04
Well - You announce Season 1 with all the features, THEN you say it will be pushed back, but all that has been pushed back is the "Season 1" Title, not the features. I get that you were disclosing that, too, but still...
If you can't see how thats at least a little bit bait and switch, idk what is.

Bait and switch refers to a sale tactic where the payee is tricked into purchasing something on the cheap under false pretenses and is given something entirely different. If you have any additional questions regarding what we have outlined for Season 1, please feel free to ask. We will gladly clarify these points for you.

Da_Wolv
14th Sep 2015, 21:09
Bait and switch refers to a sale tactic where the payee is tricked into purchasing something on the cheap under false pretenses and is given something entirely different. If you have any additional questions regarding what we have outlined for Season 1, please feel free to ask. We will gladly clarify these points for you.

As I said before; could you explain exactly how the points will be distributed?
Whats this bonus pool and when is it dried out?

At the moment the biggest problem is that people that simply play every night can dominate the ladder. Last Beta I managed to get to 30th in Eternal by playing a lot more than everyone else, but there was no way I could go beyond 15th, since the point gap started increasing so significantly. I missed about 5 days of playing leagues, yet was unable to climb that high, even with a decent win rate compared to the players aorund me in Eternal.

In other words:
If I have a vacation planned for 5 days, why should I even bother? Theres no way you can compete with people that can just play every day and night endlessly barring pausing for sleep and sustanance. This is what we are concerned with: Rewarding grinding over actual skill.

uNborn-
15th Sep 2015, 05:53
NGvisator is in 1st place eternal solely because he doesn't have a job. His win loss ratio is awful but it doesn't matter as long as he spends 8-9 hours a day on leagues. Point system makes zero sense.

Da_Wolv
15th Sep 2015, 07:39
NGvisator is in 1st place eternal solely because he doesn't have a job. His win loss ratio is awful but it doesn't matter as long as he spends 8-9 hours a day on leagues. Point system makes zero sense.

I didnt even bother this Beta, coz I was away the entire weekend and I don't want to get a 3rd duplicate banner that I cant delete:mad2:

FireWorks_
15th Sep 2015, 08:56
Something else to look at: 6 highpingers for 2 normals.



Dropping EU players on a US server only to have 2 natives there?

6 Highpingers in a match is just not fun. Lots of funky hit detection and warping for everybody!

GenocidePete
15th Sep 2015, 16:08
Why so complicated? Just remove lobbies in ranked already! That way people can't dodge lobbies they dislike, and everything is dandy.
..well not everything... actually hardly anything... nevermind.
Still though, lobbies are not needed in ranked.
Until **** and those like him get banned (no idea why it hasn't happened yet), queue-dodging is legitimate. I was almost stuck in a game with him last night!

Da_Wolv
15th Sep 2015, 16:19
Until **** and those like him get banned (no idea why it hasn't happened yet), queue-dodging is legitimate. I was almost stuck in a game with him last night!

Dont know him, are u in NA?
Besides that I dont play pubs atm

wortelriandu
15th Sep 2015, 17:52
Mix groups and solo players in the league is a crazy idea.
It is necessary to divide the league finally. Who likes solo, let him play solo. Who likes to play with your friends, let them play with friends. Combining them does not work. Even 2-3 players in the party have a great advantage over the solo players.

Solo players can resist the group only if each has a much better gaming skill.

I don't think its that big of a deal, unless they are try hards that spend hours practicing strats togheter.

Audhumbla
15th Sep 2015, 20:50
You seem to lack the basic knowledge of ELO and the like:
The Rating of each player in a team is somehow summed up (weighed averaged whatever) and then both ratings are compared.
The ratio of those ratings determines the expected outcome of the match. So if Team A has 1000 Skill and Team B has 2000 Skill (depending on system used) the expected outcome can be something from 66% win for Team B to 99% win for Team B.
If Team A now looses, they only loose a few points as it was expected to loose with the current ratings.

And this is probably what happened in your case - you won more games but against lower opponents, whereas the other guy lost more games, but to higher level guys...

This is btw. true for many of the complaints about grindfest that I read here in the forum.

The only way to "abuse" this system is to barely loose at all (e.g. by high-lobby dodging)

This is essentially correct.

The leagues are pushing you towards a number that is correlated with your hidden MMR. The people at the top of Eternal all have the max MMR (I just checked). Now if we have to adjust the way the points are earned in the future we can, but for now it is working.

The "activity bonus" or bonus pool doesn't actually account for very much. In the currently running series there are only a total of 70 bonus points available so far. The top eternal scores are in the range of ~1400; even the amount you can get for a mediocre placement is around 150.

One other aspect not taken into account with purely looking at win loss is that you need to win at the right time to get promoted -> you must have the points bar filled, meaning you're over the threshold for the next tier up. Winning other games gets you points but a few losses while sitting at the top of a tier leaves you in the tier, whereas a single win at the top will push you up.

If the matchmaking is working correctly (and if we close the ability to dodge lobbies so the matchmaking can do it's work), the win ratio *should* be around 50%. Because that's what the matchmaking is trying to achieve. That means that the games are even.

Dron1508
15th Sep 2015, 21:40
If the matchmaking is working correctly (and if we close the ability to dodge lobbies so the matchmaking can do it's work), the win ratio *should* be around 50%. Because that's what the matchmaking is trying to achieve

Emmm... Call me the moron, but I thought that the purpose of matchmakng system is to match me with players with similar skill in matches, where only good teamwork decides who wins. You know, not about to place me into obviously stronger team in 50% of cases and obviously weaker in another.

FireWorks_
15th Sep 2015, 22:28
Emmm... Call me the moron, but I thought that the purpose of matchmakng system is to match me with players with similar skill in matches, where only good teamwork decides who wins. You know, not about to place me into obviously stronger team in 50% of cases and obviously weaker in another.

You think extremes here (100 vs 0%).
Even if you get matched with similar skill (due to a big pool of players which Nosgoth cant provide), the system will have a mathematical opinion of who will win and who will lose (53 vs 47%). Its still up to you to proove if its right or wrong, so it can adjust the next time.


The issue at hand is the waiting time... and like I wrote in my sign
ature: get rid of the freaking lobbies. If banners are so important for the cash flow, bring them to the scoreboard and deathscreens!



edit:
What I dont understand is why TrueSkill was implemented and still ELO is what we talk about. ELO is outdated and not perfect. TrueSkill should overcome its shortcomings, but yea, it does not for Nosgoth yet. Maybe you can shed some light on this @Audhumbla

Audhumbla
16th Sep 2015, 16:51
What I dont understand is why TrueSkill was implemented and still ELO is what we talk about. ELO is outdated and not perfect. TrueSkill should overcome its shortcomings, but yea, it does not for Nosgoth yet. Maybe you can shed some light on this @Audhumbla

It's actually a system using some similar (but not the same) maths as TrueSkill.

Unagodd
16th Sep 2015, 22:40
Hi all,
The special reward skin within Leagues is intended to be an exclusive reward, something you can win by hitting a high rank and can show off your skill level with. Once our Beta ended (where we awarded the Hunter skin) we looked at both the feedback and the stats on our side to see if that was working as intended, and the skin turned out to be easier to obtain than was designed.


It seems it wasn't available for Eternal this lasst go-round either, so I'm guessinng it's just gonna be stuff you have to buy?

KaininitePriestess
17th Sep 2015, 12:23
The skin is going to be released for the Leagues later.

Saikocat
17th Sep 2015, 14:04
It seems it wasn't available for Eternal this lasst go-round either, so I'm guessinng it's just gonna be stuff you have to buy?

If you mean the Leagues Beta 1.2 test that was a week, that was just to test 24/7 running of Leagues, so wouldn't have had the same rewards we do with a month long full league.