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BR0sephStalin
27th Aug 2014, 23:08
Just making some quick tier lists so new players have a place to go to know what skills/weapons are currently viable in pub play. Feel free to comment with constructive criticism or input. Discussion of the viability of classes/skills/perks is welcome. I will be updating the list as I see fit.

All lists will be created in best to worst format.


Human Classes
1. Hunter (Most reliable DPS and CC in the game, comparatively weak at long ranges)
2. Prophet (Strong DPS at all ranges, but requires good aim and can be unreliable. Decent CC)
3. Scout (Damage isn't good enough to justify the unreliable CC this class has)
4. Alchemist (Only non-hitscan human weapon in the game. Unreliable damage and flashbang CC isn't that great. Niche class at best)


Vampire Classes
1. Reaver (Strong mobility and can play a variety of roles. Good on every team even with 4 man reaver stacks)
2/3. Deceiver (Decent cloak and dagger tactics. Lacks the mobility and escape to be as good as the reaver)
2/3. Sentinal (Isn't rewarding enough for the skill required to play the class. Can be inconsistent, and a minor mistake can end your life. Decent poke for high level games)
4. Tyrant (Requires too much team follow-up to be viable at high levels. Can still crush low levels, but easily dealt with by even average players)


Hunter Weapons/Equipment
1. Repeater
2. Siege Bow
3. Bolt Thrower
4. Multibow

1. Whip (all of this are viable, however)
2. Poison Bola
3. Bola

1/2. Explosive Shot (I prefer the reliability of explosive shot post grenade nerf)
1/2. Grenade
3. Sticky Grenade
4. Blinding Shot



Prophet Weapons/Equipment
1. Heavy Pistols
2. Everything else

1. Hex Shot (just use this)
2/3. Disabling Curse
2/3. Draining Curse

1. Life Leach (Just use this)
2. Eldritch Guard
3. Sacrifice



Scout Weapons/Equipment
1. Compound Bow
2. War Bow
3. Swift Bow (Just play prophet with heavies if you like this bow and you will do better).
4. Storm Bow (See saturnity's breakdown on the first page of this thread)

1. Throw Knives
2. Camo
3. Mark Target

1. Trap
2. Arrow Shower
3. Turret
4. Grappling Hook (never use this)



Alchemist Weapons
This class isn't worth playing at the moment and all of the alchemist weapons are bad.


(Vampire equipment tier lists coming soon)

BR0sephStalin
27th Aug 2014, 23:08
Reaver Abilities
1. Leap Attack (The first 3 skills here are all extremely viable)
2/3. Sweeping Kick
2/3. Savage Pounce
4. Pounce

1. Choking Haze + Shadow Bomb. (both skills are amazing)

1. Shadow Step + Evasion (both skills are amazing and come down to personal preference. I tend to lean towards SS)


Deceiver Abilities
1. Disguise (Disguise is currently a required tool for deceivers at high levels of play and simply outclasses Dominate Mind)
2. Dominate Mind

1. Infect (Both skills are viable, but I feel infect puts out more consistent damage overall)
2. Backstab

1. Shroud (I would prefer the deceiver have a better escape ability, but shroud still provides decent utility)
2. Illusions (It's too easy to determine clones and ignore them as they don't dodge)

Sentinel Abilities
1. Abduct (More consistent damage than kidnap and leaves you less vulnerable because of its reduced grab time)
2. Kidnap

1. Puncture (More consistent damage of the two abilities)
2. Wing Flap

1. Air Strike (decent ranged poke for vampires)
2. Dive Bomb (Leaves the sentinel too vulnerable at both the start and end of the ability)


Tyrant Abilities
1. Jump Attack + Marathon + Chage (These skills are mostly preference based and all have problems. I tend to lean towards jump attack)

1. Ground Slam (Most consistent CC tyrants have. Hard to dodge as a human once the tyrant is close)
2. Shockwave (Easily dodged due to a long and telegraphed cast time. Can still be devastating when landed)
3. Throw (Niche skill at best that I would avoid running. Throw simply doesn't fit in the tyrants kit. The tyrant is about team-play and mass CC/damage and throw singles out individual targest. A reaver with savage pounce would better fit this role)

1. Ignore Pain (Decent damage mitigation)
2. Enrage (Tyrants running enrage are generally too fragile and easily focused to be viable IMO)



Discussion About Perks

While there are certainly stronger and weaker perks right now, perks as a whole to vary with viability depending on the class being played. As such I am going to avoid ranking them outright and simply talk about them in brief detail.


Human Perks
Deadeye: This is undeniably the best perk for hunters and prophets. It is probably decent on scouts as well but there are other good options.
Quick Hands: I can see this being useful on scout
Fleet Footed: Decent scout/alchy perk. Allows for better kiting.
Quick Wits: I believe there are better choices for every class, but may have a use somewhere.
Catlike Reflexes: Not viable
Tenacity: Other perks are better.
Vigor: Not viable
Tinkerer: Decent on Scout/Alchy (I personally run this on alchy)
Scavenger: Most useless perk IMO
Steadiness: Completely unnecessary and Deadeye is better.


Vampire Perks
Undying Wisdom: Good on every class.
Frenzy: Decent on every class
Berserker: Gimmicky skill for enrage tyrants. Avoid it otherwise.
Regeneration: Decent skill for new sentinels who take too much damage before engaging.
Nimbleness: Not good.
Bloodlust: Decent on every class
Bloody Vitality: Not viable
Feast: Only viable on tyrant and even then there are better choices

Saturnity
28th Aug 2014, 00:58
The storm bow is the single worst bow scout has. You gain next to nothing (light, uncommon AoE damage) in exchange for taking more damage in CQC due to delayed damage and self damage. It also makes your team waste ammo on vamps that are about to die. Communication is big in competitive games, but you shouldn't have to clutter up comms saying "don't shoot this guy, the arrow bomb will kill him". Especially if the vamp is still attacking someone.

The swiftbow is also equal to the compound bow. You get a little less burst damage and a hair less CQC dps in exchange for more mobility and higher long range DPS.

BR0sephStalin
28th Aug 2014, 05:09
The storm bow is the single worst bow scout has. You gain next to nothing in exchange for taking more damage in CQC and making your team waste ammo on vamps that are about to die.

The swiftbow is also equal to the compound bow. You get a little less burst damage and a hair less CQC dps in exchange for more mobility and higher long range DPS.

Thanks for the input Sat, obviously I respect/trust your game knowledge. I was going to argue that you gain an extra shot per clip with the Stormbow (as opposed to compound) but I just checked and you actually get one less. Lowered the storm bow on the list with your suggestion.

Do you agree with most of the other stuff?

Prime_Abstergo
28th Aug 2014, 06:34
Alchemist Weapons

Just don't play this class, but if you do at least take healing so you aren't completely worthless.

What a shame this note comes in the end. I'd never waste my time on whole post if I could see this first.
Even so all these "tiers" are SO one-sided and superficial.. I'd even say they are confusing. You obviously don't imagine what a teamplay is and what is a high-level gameplay.

And overall.. such a "useful" thread :thud:

malgaa
28th Aug 2014, 07:19
Alchemist Weapons
Just don't play this class, but if you do at least take healing so you aren't completely worthless.


LOL. Tell that to my regular 20k damage Alchemist.

Saturnity
28th Aug 2014, 07:31
Alchemist is an excellent class, but she lacks ranged pressure. Her close-range dps makes it harder for vamps to actually press their CQC advantage, but it doesn't change that vamps can walk that much more freely when alchemists are around. I'd say she deserves the bottom spot, but humans are OPed in general. It's not saying much.

She still needs an analysis, though.


What a shame this note comes in the end. I'd never waste my time on whole post if I could see this first.
Even so all these "tiers" are SO one-sided and superficial.. I'd even say they are confusing. You obviously don't imagine what a teamplay is and what is a high-level gameplay.

And overall.. such a "useful" thread :thud:

Most of tier spots are pretty spot-on for a high level of gameplay and even competitve games, from the scrims I've played so far. The biggest change that needs to happen is that deceiver needs to be put on a solid #2 slot. Deceiver is a godsend in competitive games because approaching safely is such an issue for the vamp team. You just can't run more than two of them without getting hard countered by AoEs and trap.

Phytik
28th Aug 2014, 11:36
I mainly play Scout. Unlocked at lvl 5 and now Im almost lvl 30 with my account. Scout lvl is 20+.

The Compound Bow has good dmg and is stable in damage

I got the Storm Bow as a second bow. It is awesome to hit from far away with it. Especially if you hit a Vamp that is close to another Vamp. But it is kinda bad in in cqc. The dmg comes delayed and you do dmg to yourself.

Next Bow I got was the War Bow. I really liked the Knock back but I had problems with that weapon. It has 4 shoots before reload only and that is quiet low. You do 1 shot and have to reload. If you miss its more fatal than with other weapons. Also it is harder to fight a Vampire face to face with that weapon when the Vamp still has high HP. The War Bow is still nice to support your teammates. Especially if you knock down a vamp close to the human. And I also hate the loooooooong draw time :D

After a while I also decided to get the Swift Bow. It is a perfect Bow to train your aim with bows. The draw time feels so awesome since it´s so short. I played with the Swift Bow for a week and tried one of the other bows again. I hit with almost every shot but I cried everytime I had to draw the bows :D

The Swift Bow is still one of my favorite bows and I think I will keep it as main weapon. Ofc it deals 100 dmg less than the Storm Bow but while I draw the Storm Bow I can see a Vamp appear and disappear. If I´m equipped with the Swift Bow I can see a Vamp, draw the bow, shoot the Vamp, draw the Bow again and shoot another Vamp.
Still you are right about the Swift Bow I think "Swift Bow (Just play prophet with heavies if you like this bow and you will do better)"
But I still gonna play with the Swift Bow most of the time because I really cant get used to the slow draw time of the other bows anymore :D
I would advice to Scouts/Future Scouts to get the Swift Bow as a aim training bow and just spam the drawn shots of it. After a week or so just change the Weap to one of the other 3 Bows.

Throw Knives are awesome in a 1v1. It "stuns/knockbacks" the enemy vampire and the fact that you hit 3 knives it is possible to stun 3 Vamps I guess. You can support your teammates with the knives.

I use Camouflage. It can help get safely to a supply station or escape a fight where everyone is about to die. It is possible to hunt/chase Vampires with it since they for example hide behind walls with low hp. Even though I use Camouflage I think Throw Knives is better. I just like the Camouflage.

Mark Target is actually pretty good. You can make a vamp visible to all your teammates and it can help getting your teammates to focus 1 vampire quickly down. Sometimes the Vamp even waits till the effect is over and for this time its a 4v3. The downside can be that your teammates ignore everything else (environment/other vamps) and just looking for the marked target. I think Mark Target is better in a 4-man-party where you can communicate with your friends/team. I have to admit I havent bought Mark Target so I can only speculate.

And now Im kinda tired after all this writing so Im gonna make it short from now on :D

Volley: Awesome, can be thrown far away. AoE support with high dmg potential. Cant be used indoors. Can Dmg yourself :(

Turret (I use that): Good. Can dmg yourself. Can be used indoors. More dmg than Volley. Aoe Support with high dmg potential. less Aoe than Volley which can make that skill useless.

Trap: Sadly cant throw multiple of them. Still good if you gonna camp somewhere and you need some protection on your back.

Grappling Hook: Helps the Vampires more than it helps yourself/your team. You will be the perfect target. Can only be useful when the Vampires are far away. Once they are close you have 1 less skill to fight with.

In case you need the dps:

Hunter
Repeater 322,5
Multibow 399
Siegebow 332,5
BoltThrower 301


Alchemist
Handcannon 308
FullboreCannon 300
MultiCannon 312
VisconsCannon 308

Scout
CompoundBow 234 (without draw) 237,5 (with draw / inaccurate)
StormBow 237,5 (without draw) 237,5 (with draw / inaccurate)
Swiftbow 227,5 (without draw) 288,5 (with draw / inaccurate)
WarBow 234 (without draw) 160 (with draw / inaccurate)

Prophet
DualPistols 253
PiercingPistols 247
HeavyPistols 247,5
QuickPistols 247,5

Aggggh
28th Aug 2014, 12:58
LOL. Tell that to my regular 20k damage Alchemist.

Even a bad player can pull that with a hunter. Hitscan > Projectiles all the time; she's at her best in cqc in small spaces, but all the other classes are better for range and at a a disadvantage in cqc. She can take care of Tyrants easier than other classes, but none of the other classes have a real problem dealing with him anyways. Also, Alchemist is the only class that has an extreme disadvantage versus a particular vamp (sentinel).

HoopleDoople
28th Aug 2014, 18:43
Pretty solid list. I am a bit surprised at the Scout's Turret being 3rd though. It has a longer duration, higher damage, is less obvious, can be used under cover, and (at least I think) can be deployed quicker. In my opinion these advantage more than make up for the smaller range. Certainly I've had much better success in practice with the Turret. I have not yet acquired the Trap so I cannot competently judge its effectiveness.

I look forward to your Vampire ability tier list.

Whoopdidoohah
28th Aug 2014, 20:16
As far as trap goes, it's awesome, but the self damage you take is ridiculously high (300) is this a bug ?

Also I figured you can basically throw it twice in the same hit and run, using this strategy : You throw it before the Vamps come in, in a spot your teammates are going to camp and then you go a little bit away out of the trap's range. Then when the cooldown is over, you use it right after the one you put before explodes, resulting in 2 x damage from traps to nearby vampires (be aware though that if you're not careful you'll kill yourself with it).

It works when your team hides in a house or in a tight area.

Aggggh
28th Aug 2014, 22:32
Pretty solid list. I am a bit surprised at the Scout's Turret being 3rd though. It has a longer duration, higher damage, is less obvious, can be used under cover, and (at least I think) can be deployed quicker. In my opinion these advantage more than make up for the smaller range. Certainly I've had much better success in practice with the Turret. I have not yet acquired the Trap so I cannot competently judge its effectiveness.

I look forward to your Vampire ability tier list.
All a vamp has to do to get away from a turret is climb above the turret. Humans generally are at a disadvantage in closed spaces . Trap can be put down in high traffic areas for team mates to camp on. Volley can be tossed pretty far to cover team mates which is what the scout's secondary ability is best for.

Saturnity
29th Aug 2014, 00:24
It's nice to throw volley far, but it's usually a waste to toss it on a roof or something like that. Save it for when the vampires start going in.

BR0sephStalin
29th Aug 2014, 05:44
What a shame this note comes in the end. I'd never waste my time on whole post if I could see this first.
Even so all these "tiers" are SO one-sided and superficial.. I'd even say they are confusing. You obviously don't imagine what a teamplay is and what is a high-level gameplay.

And overall.. such a "useful" thread :thud:

I understand that you may find the class fun. That totally ok, but if you honestly believe the class is decent then you are bad and your opinion doesn't matter.


LOL. Tell that to my regular 20k damage Alchemist.

I understand that you are a decent player (I see the immortal tag) but if you are regularly dropping 20k with alchy then you would regularly be dropping 25k with hunter or prophet. Try and deny that.

malgaa
29th Aug 2014, 07:21
I understand that you are a decent player (I see the immortal tag) but if you are regularly dropping 20k with alchy then you would regularly be dropping 25k with hunter or prophet. Try and deny that.

That's true but it doesn't make Alchemist worthless, I'd say this class is quite situational and depends more on your teammates and on which classes are the vampires using than other all-around classes like Hunter. Some of my highest damage and scores have been with Alchemist. All this considering we're talking about pub games and not competitive.

If I wanted to play my best, would I pick Alchy over Hunter? No. But still, for pub game is not only fun but can be very effective ;)

Aggggh
29th Aug 2014, 07:58
It's nice to throw volley far, but it's usually a waste to toss it on a roof or something like that. Save it for when the vampires start going in.
Wasn't talking about throwing it on a roof. Say you get a spawn that's far away from your team mates but you see them getting attacked, or a team mate runs off on his own, or you've been staying further back to snipe, or a team mate runs off for a heal and you think a vamp might be hanging around for the kill on the health station. You can cover your team mates from a further distance (regardless of line of sight) than you'd be able to do with a trap/turret.


That's true but it doesn't make Alchemist worthless, I'd say this class is quite situational and depends more on your teammates and on which classes are the vampires using than other all-around classes like Hunter. Some of my highest damage and scores have been with Alchemist. All this considering we're talking about pub games and not competitive.

If I wanted to play my best, would I pick Alchy over Hunter? No. But still, for pub game is not only fun but can be very effective ;)
This is a tier list, not a "what class I like list." The fact that the Alchemist is situational and depends more on your team mates makes it the lowest tier class.

BR0sephStalin
29th Aug 2014, 08:07
That's true but it doesn't make Alchemist worthless, I'd say this class is quite situational and depends more on your teammates and on which classes are the vampires using than other all-around classes like Hunter. Some of my highest damage and scores have been with Alchemist. All this considering we're talking about pub games and not competitive.

If I wanted to play my best, would I pick Alchy over Hunter? No. But still, for pub game is not only fun but can be very effective ;)

In the human class tier list I explain the class is niche. Obviously a good player is going to do decent with any class in the game. Was I exaggerating when I said the class was worthless? Of course, but it still hands down the worst human class right now. The exaggeration helps get that point across.

EVERY class can be effective, but there is literally no situation I would pick Alchy in if I was trying my hardest to win the game. The fun-factor should be ignored in tier lists.

While I believe prophet and scout to be inferior to hunter overall currently, there are things they counter well enough to make them viable niche picks (IE Prophet for tyrant jumps, scouts for multiple sentinal teams).


Pretty solid list. I am a bit surprised at the Scout's Turret being 3rd though. It has a longer duration, higher damage, is less obvious, can be used under cover, and (at least I think) can be deployed quicker. In my opinion these advantage more than make up for the smaller range. Certainly I've had much better success in practice with the Turret. I have not yet acquired the Trap so I cannot competently judge its effectiveness.

I look forward to your Vampire ability tier list.

Turret has a smaller AoE range and IMO is more easily countered by vampires. My first reaction to a turret going down is to instantly throw reaver poison on it. The AoE range is similar and poison ensures no humans are going to stand in its range. Arrow shower is significantly larger and doesn't have the same issue.

Furthermore, humans should generally be fighting in open areas so ceiling blocking the arrow shower shouldn't be that big of an issue. Level changes and line of sight can often be a problem for the turret on the other hand.

I also believe the turret doesn't hit reavers with evasion enabled (can anybody confirm this?) while arrow shower does. That's a somewhat big deal.

The difference between arrow shower and turret isn't that large, but I personally believe arrow shower to be the better of the two choices.

RainaAudron
29th Aug 2014, 09:00
A reminder for everybody - please keep the discussion respectful as stated in our Forum ToU no.6 (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?a=1#rule6) - everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Thanks.

cmstache
29th Aug 2014, 11:22
I also believe the turret doesn't hit reavers with evasion enabled (can anybody confirm this?) while arrow shower does. That's a somewhat big deal.



False. The turret's damage is AoE based, thus hits an evasion reaver. And for the record, turret's activation is faster than volley's.

malgaa
29th Aug 2014, 13:28
Sorry I wasn't familiarized with the term tier list. In that case, overall, I agree with OP.

NefariousZ
29th Aug 2014, 15:36
I'd put alchemist above scout. Her AoE burst and area denial is unrivalaed and her ability to punish vamps for ganging up on any one team-mate is also unrivalled. That said I would put a special asterisk next to it saying no more than 1 in a party though, and you actually need to be able to direct hit with her pills. Otherwise this tier list looks pretty accurate.

A perfect team though IMO (8/29/14) would be 2 hunters, 1 prophet, and 1 alchemist. Although 2 proph, 1 hunter, 1 alch would be practically the same. Scout currently is just not needed as the damage drop off for the other two ranged classes is not enough to matter. Scout CC sucks compared to hunter and prophet, and their area denial is bad compared to alchemist.

Vamps fairly accurate. Reaver clearly has the most utility, scales the best, etc. The rest are tied for second place IMO.

Someone who comes from other spy games for instance (tf2) can spot an invisible deceiver pretty easily. Sents are easy to shoot out of the sky no matter how skilled the sent is and if you take away their kidnap/abduct ability they are a poor mans reaver. Tyrant is counterable sure, but so are all vamps, its much more about working together just like the humans.

So I also feel tier list matters less for vamps as its really just about ganging up on the humans better than the humans ability to insta gib you from range. Since vamps have the initiative. Its about using it their initiative to beat out their inherent weakness.

Aggggh
29th Aug 2014, 16:04
I'd put alchemist above scout. Her AoE burst and area denial is unrivalaed and her ability to punish vamps for ganging up on any one team-mate is also unrivalled. That said I would put a special asterisk next to it saying no more than 1 in a party though, and you actually need to be able to direct hit with her pills. Otherwise this tier list looks pretty accurate.

A perfect team though IMO (8/29/14) would be 2 hunters, 1 prophet, and 1 alchemist. Although 2 proph, 1 hunter, 1 alch would be practically the same. Scout currently is just not needed as the damage drop off for the other two ranged classes is not enough to matter. Scout CC sucks compared to hunter and prophet, and their area denial is bad compared to alchemist.

Vamps fairly accurate. Reaver clearly has the most utility, scales the best, etc. The rest are tied for second place IMO.

Someone who comes from other spy games for instance (tf2) can spot an invisible deceiver pretty easily. Sents are easy to shoot out of the sky no matter how skilled the sent is and if you take away their kidnap/abduct ability they are a poor mans reaver. Tyrant is counterable sure, but so are all vamps, its much more about working together just like the humans.

So I also feel tier list matters less for vamps as its really just about ganging up on the humans better than the humans ability to insta gib you from range. Since vamps have the initiative. Its about using it their initiative to beat out their inherent weakness.

Tyrant is big, slow target, and is forced to choose between running at humans and eating tons of damage or jumping at them and praying he doesn't get CC'd out of the air. Other vamp classes have abilities that aren't as nearly as reliant on team coordination and luck to be effective.

In a perfect team I'd rather have a scout than an alchemist. Their big damage on the charge shot is the perfect counter to sents.

TapxJames
29th Aug 2014, 16:48
Tyrants and alchemist are trash. Whenever my friends and I run full alchemist or tyrants teams, it generally means we're ******* around entirely. I think these classes share the same problems, they're competing against classes that do a better job without the drawback.

Nemesis777
29th Aug 2014, 18:39
Tyrant is big, slow target, and is forced to choose between running at humans and eating tons of damage or jumping at them and praying he doesn't get CC'd out of the air. Other vamp classes have abilities that aren't as nearly as reliant on team coordination and luck to be effective.
That is why I don't use this class.

In a perfect team I'd rather have a scout than an alchemist. Their big damage on the charge shot is the perfect counter to sents.
And when scout misses the charge shot, he will always be a fastfood if no one helps him in close fight. :lol:

Saturnity
29th Aug 2014, 18:54
And when scout misses the charge shot, he will always be a fastfood if no one helps him in close fight. :lol:

A scout that keeps zooming in under pressure deserves to get killed.

NefariousZ
29th Aug 2014, 19:43
Tyrant is big, slow target, and is forced to choose between running at humans and eating tons of damage or jumping at them and praying he doesn't get CC'd out of the air. Other vamp classes have abilities that aren't as nearly as reliant on team coordination and luck to be effective.

In a perfect team I'd rather have a scout than an alchemist. Their big damage on the charge shot is the perfect counter to sents.

Tyrant shouldn't initiate. Once a fight starts I feel they bring just as much to the fight as the others beyond, like I said, reaver being a tier above the rest. A hunter isn't going to suddenly bola a tyrant out of the sky as he's dodge rolling away from choking cloud and a deceiver is meleeing him to death. You just need a certain amount of skill to play one like you do any other, expecting to face roll your keeyboard like at earlier levels and win isn't going to happen with tyrant.

If the other 3 (mix of hunters and prophets) have half way decent aim you don't NEED a scout. That was my point I was trying to make. 2-3 hunters or prophets hitting a sentinel is more than enough damage to take them down fast. Damage fall off is very low (it needs to be increased dramatically if scout is to have a real role). And accuracy suffers almost not at all for hunters and prophets at range especially with deadeye and getting used to recoil.

And to the other guy...whether a team full of pure whatever class is trash or not is not an indicator of tier. This is a team game with roles to play. In tf2 saying a full team of medics suck is moot.

Mayhzon
29th Aug 2014, 22:16
In the human class tier list I explain the class is niche. Obviously a good player is going to do decent with any class in the game. Was I exaggerating when I said the class was worthless? Of course, but it still hands down the worst human class right now. The exaggeration helps get that point across.

EVERY class can be effective, but there is literally no situation I would pick Alchy in if I was trying my hardest to win the game. The fun-factor should be ignored in tier lists.

While I believe prophet and scout to be inferior to hunter overall currently, there are things they counter well enough to make them viable niche picks (IE Prophet for tyrant jumps, scouts for multiple sentinal teams).

I strongly disagree. If you take on any team that has no sentinels and your team doesn't have one alchemist, you're missing out on great chasing and area denial utility. Especially against the Reaver only team she's a very decent pick. Healing Mist can mitigate damage taken by Choking Haze or Infect and minimize the effectiveness of all hit and run tactics employed by vampires in general. It basically forces vampires to finish their attack and kill their targets, otherwise the humans are just going to heal up. A well placed Firewall can save lives or let you take someone with you into death.

The Alchemist is strong support against all enemy ground units. Add to the equotation that her supposedly "useless" light bomb *ignores* Reaver's dodge and has a pretty good blast radius and you've got a decent class to deal with Reavers and Deceivers. It's the go-to skill to pick off low-health Reavers who are escaping with dodge. Last but not least, the low cooldown on Light Bomb makes it also an ideal weapon to harass vampires on roofs near your position. You can throw it up and deal easy 100-350 damage and have it already ready again when the vampires decide to attack. Her weapon also allows shooting up on roofs and still hitting targets. She's decent at finishing vampires off and also at forcing them to leave their hiding spots. That's pretty decent utility. It's never wrong to have an alchemist on your team, unless the vampires have 3 sentinels or more.

Aggggh
29th Aug 2014, 22:57
Tyrant shouldn't initiate. Once a fight starts I feel they bring just as much to the fight as the others beyond, like I said, reaver being a tier above the rest. A hunter isn't going to suddenly bola a tyrant out of the sky as he's dodge rolling away from choking cloud and a deceiver is meleeing him to death. You just need a certain amount of skill to play one like you do any other, expecting to face roll your keeyboard like at earlier levels and win isn't going to happen with tyrant.

If the other 3 (mix of hunters and prophets) have half way decent aim you don't NEED a scout. That was my point I was trying to make. 2-3 hunters or prophets hitting a sentinel is more than enough damage to take them down fast. Damage fall off is very low (it needs to be increased dramatically if scout is to have a real role). And accuracy suffers almost not at all for hunters and prophets at range especially with deadeye and getting used to recoil.

And to the other guy...whether a team full of pure whatever class is trash or not is not an indicator of tier. This is a team game with roles to play. In tf2 saying a full team of medics suck is moot.

Never said Tyrant should initiate. If you're waiting back on your team mates to initiate, that means that one of the humans will probably be free enough to keep an eye out for you. You're pretty much spelling out why Tyrant is so weak. The fact that he is so reliant on coordination with team mates means that he's that much of a liability when things go wrong.

It's not a question of accuracy, it's the scouts burst damage that makes him a threat. Nothing will drop a sent faster than a scout+hunter/prophet. Vamps know they have to worry about the possibility of losing almost half their HP in one shot when they approach a team with a scout and on top of that he has a powerful AOE that outclasses any AOE support the Alchemist can supply.

NefariousZ
29th Aug 2014, 23:17
Never said Tyrant should initiate. If you're waiting back on your team mates to initiate, that means that one of the humans will probably be free enough to keep an eye out for you. You're pretty much spelling out why Tyrant is so weak. The fact that he is so reliant on coordination with team mates means that he's that much of a liability when things go wrong.

It's not a question of accuracy, it's the scouts burst damage that makes him a threat. Nothing will drop a sent faster than a scout+hunter/prophet. Vamps know they have to worry about the possibility of losing almost half their HP in one shot when they approach a team with a scout and on top of that he has a powerful AOE that outclasses any AOE support the Alchemist can supply.
Even in a non com pub I have no problem attacking with team mates and I'm not a tyrant main. All I can say is try finding better tyrant players. Your logic of he requires team play and is therefor bad in a tier list doesn't make sense in this team game. Further this is a tier list, its assuming the best player caliber is playing each class in an good team. Otherwise you can come up with ANY situation to make ANY class sound tier 1.

Scouts AoE isn't exactly garbage, but it by no means comes close to an alches AoE. All vamps I ever see just walk out of a scouts AoE taking 50-200dmg. An alche can do ~500-600 damage (350+250) in about a second in addition to their insane sustain DPS AOE /area denial (you have to factor in the fact that their weapon is AoE as well, something so many people seem to forget in their theory craft.) Alchemists AoE is easily 2-3 times that of a scouts...

And while scouts long range burst is sometimes useful, most of the time the vamp just disapears long enough to regen most of it. As for killing an incoming sent and not just a poking sent, again 2 decent hunters/prophets have no trouble...

Nemesis777
30th Aug 2014, 06:20
Alchemist have two good secondary abilities - poison, and flamewall which is more effective in most of situations. It's very easy to interrupt/break flamethrower weapon effect or escape from it, so it isn't worth the dmg. The first primary ability she get is blinding effect - actually it is almost useless, everyone is using the superior version without blinding effect [Light Bomb 350 dmg]. Other humans have better primary ability at start, so this blinding effect should last longer or do damage. IMO Alchemist should possess abilities to manipulate/alter the (bio)chemistry, so she really could be called AllChemist. She need some real CC ability to completly disable enemy by throwing toxic, neurodegenerative substance on him which will cause paralysis for x seconds. Boosts on self: stimulant-like skill to increase/improve her stats, or painkillers to take less damage/get more hp - that type of ability could also have poison effect on vampire if he try to feed on dead alchemist right after she was killed, and this skill was active. I think the painkiller effect might be more usefull for the Prophet (she uses "bloodmagic" and has a lot of wounds/scars...), if the absurdal high damage Alchemist takes from her own (close-range only) weapons were removed.

MickeyHokkaido
30th Aug 2014, 12:30
I think you've made a lot of good points about the state of the game, but when it comes to the alchemist, how can you be so obtuse? The class is the counter to reavers and deceivers. You cite lack of poke damage, but against a well played team with many reavers (and deceivers), what chance do you have to poke other than when they are on top of a roof? Other classes must spend valuable cool-downs to hit prowling roof-reavers which (I agree with Saturnity) is a waste. The class's weapon also causes area of effect damage at clusters of vampires who are focusing a target. A well played deceiver will not be seen until it pops on you or a teammate - that means any damage a hunter or prophet would have done at long-medium range gets nullified. As someone before me stated, light bomb is the counter to a reaver with evasion; it also can counter a deceiver who attempts to use infection in hit-and-run movements. Finally, the fullbore is the fastest way to dislodge a pounced human outside of abilities.

Assuming players playing optimally, an alchemist might be the class with the *most* to gain from a highly skilled player due to the factors at play that influence roof shots, managing and judging enemy cooldowns to know when to use healing mist or an Area of Effect, and placing yourself strategically in order to get the most out of roof shots to keep the reavers from attacking from their ideal spots.

If you want to promote real discussion instead of internet vitriol, this is not constructive:


I understand that you may find the class fun. That totally ok, but if you honestly believe the class is decent then you are bad and your opinion doesn't matter.

Aggggh
30th Aug 2014, 14:18
I think you've made a lot of good points about the state of the game, but when it comes to the alchemist, how can you be so obtuse? The class is the counter to reavers and deceivers. You cite lack of poke damage, but against a well played team with many reavers (and deceivers), what chance do you have to poke other than when they are on top of a roof? Other classes must spend valuable cool-downs to hit prowling roof-reavers which (I agree with Saturnity) is a waste. The class's weapon also causes area of effect damage at clusters of vampires who are focusing a target. A well played deceiver will not be seen until it pops on you or a teammate - that means any damage a hunter or prophet would have done at long-medium range gets nullified. As someone before me stated, light bomb is the counter to a reaver with evasion; it also can counter a deceiver who attempts to use infection in hit-and-run movements. Finally, the fullbore is the fastest way to dislodge a pounced human outside of abilities.

Assuming players playing optimally, an alchemist might be the class with the *most* to gain from a highly skilled player due to the factors at play that influence roof shots, managing and judging enemy cooldowns to know when to use healing mist or an Area of Effect, and placing yourself strategically in order to get the most out of roof shots to keep the reavers from attacking from their ideal spots.

If you want to promote real discussion instead of internet vitriol, this is not constructive:
If the poke damage from hitscan human classes weren't as powerful as you seem to think they are, humans wouldn't be so overpowered compared to vamps. No matter how much time vamps spend on a roof if the humans are playing smart and defending open spaces vamps will have to approach at a range where hitscan weapons will be more of an advantage.

Enemies with damage mitigation skills on aren't a threat. You don't need a counter to them. The minute they pop that skill that means you can focus on their team mates.

MickeyHokkaido
30th Aug 2014, 15:46
When you say 'If the poke damage from hitscan human classes weren't as powerful as you seem to think they are, ... ' Do you mean 'aren't?' I didn't understand that one line. But what you say about 'humans playing smart and defending open spaces' is something true that I wasn't thinking about when I wrote my reply. Hitscan is a huge advantage that I am forfitting whenever I pick alchemist. I'm actually in agreement with you, Aggggh - you've changed my opinion. Instead of playing alchie, I've been playing Hunter w/ the 500 damage AoE bomb and it's been working out better than even before.

I think maybe I was wrong.

NefariousZ
30th Aug 2014, 16:06
Also can someone explain the labeling? Not sure what some of the 1/2, and 2/3 stuff means. If this is a tier list then there should be multiple instances where abilities and classes are on the same tier. This seems more like a list.

"Just don't play this class, but if you do at least take healing so you aren't completely worthless." Is also very inappropriate for a tier list.

I think I take back my initial statement. It is a rather poor tier list. It has the tier 1 stuff right but other than that it doesn't appropriately tier the rest.

Tiers usually are categorized by Tier 1 - excellent/top tier, tier 2, good, tier 3, average, tier 4, below average, and tier 5, not worth playing currently. Or something to that effect, either adding or taking away tiers based on the game or list. You don't make the number of tiers based on the number of available classes or abilities in the category.

For this game I'd think 3 tiers would be useful until further balance is achieved and the metagame developes, tier 1 excellent in all situations, tier 2 good in most situations, and tier 3 only excels in certain situations.

Aggggh
30th Aug 2014, 16:37
When you say 'If the poke damage from hitscan human classes weren't as powerful as you seem to think they are, ... ' Do you mean 'aren't?' I didn't understand that one line. But what you say about 'humans playing smart and defending open spaces' is something true that I wasn't thinking about when I wrote my reply. Hitscan is a huge advantage that I am forfitting whenever I pick alchemist. I'm actually in agreement with you, Aggggh - you've changed my opinion. Instead of playing alchie, I've been playing Hunter w/ the 500 damage AoE bomb and it's been working out better than even before.

I think maybe I was wrong.

Eep a typo how shall I live with myself now?

BR0sephStalin
30th Aug 2014, 18:23
Also can someone explain the labeling? Not sure what some of the 1/2, and 2/3 stuff means. If this is a tier list then there should be multiple instances where abilities and classes are on the same tier. This seems more like a list.

"Just don't play this class, but if you do at least take healing so you aren't completely worthless." Is also very inappropriate for a tier list.

I think I take back my initial statement. It is a rather poor tier list. It has the tier 1 stuff right but other than that it doesn't appropriately tier the rest.

Tiers usually are categorized by Tier 1 - excellent/top tier, tier 2, good, tier 3, average, tier 4, below average, and tier 5, not worth playing currently. Or something to that effect, either adding or taking away tiers based on the game or list. You don't make the number of tiers based on the number of available classes or abilities in the category.

For this game I'd think 3 tiers would be useful until further balance is achieved and the metagame developes, tier 1 excellent in all situations, tier 2 good in most situations, and tier 3 only excels in certain situations.

There is no set guideline for how a tier list should be made. There is nothing to say a tier has to have more than one class/skill/item per tier.

If anything this list is more detailed than a standard tier list, and as such accurate information (about my opinions) for the reader.

I like how you say my "just don't play this" statement is inappropriate for a tier list, then go on to say tier 5 "not worth playing currently" is ok. I don't care if you disagree with my choice of semantics, the message I'm trying to get across is still accurate IMO, and many other good players agree. Either way I went back and changed the phrasing just for you baby-cakes.

P.S. Is it honestly that hard for you to understand the labeling of the list? It is quite simple, and you seem to be the only person confused by it. I'm willing to bet you are just nit-picking because your panties are in a bunch. If you really don't have the mental capacity to comprehend what the labeling means then it isn't worth explaining anything to you any ways (even non-native English speakers understand the numbers 1-4). It's really quite straight-forward.

Aggggh
30th Aug 2014, 18:38
There is no set guideline for how a tier list should be made. There is nothing to say a tier has to have more than one class/skill/item per tier.

If anything this list is more detailed than a standard tier list, and as such accurate information (about my opinions) for the reader.

I like how you say my "just don't play this" statement is inappropriate for a tier list, then go on to say tier 5 "not worth playing currently" is ok. I don't care if you disagree with my choice of semantics, the message I'm trying to get across is still accurate IMO, and many other good players agree.

P.S. Is it honestly that hard for you to understand the labeling of the list? It is quite simple, and you seem to be the only person confused by it. I'm willing to bet you are just nit-picking because your panties are in a bunch. If you really don't have the mental capacity to comprehend what the labeling means then it isn't worth explaining anything to you any ways (even non-native English speakers understand the numbers 1-4). It's really quite straight-forward.

It's meaningless semantics of course, but he's not exactly wrong. This is more of a ranking list than a tier list.

cmstache
30th Aug 2014, 19:38
I do want to add to this conversation for a minute. It's important to keep in mind that this is purely opinion and speculation. There are set-ups that will break any tier list, and this is the OP's reflection on how skills/weapons are ranked. It's 100% plausible that someone can play a Warbow better than a Stormbow purely because of the style of play. The key to looking at this list is to keep in mind that most (not all) abilities are currently side-grades. As such, it's almost impossible to accurately ranks skills completely.

Aggggh
30th Aug 2014, 20:43
I do want to add to this conversation for a minute. It's important to keep in mind that this is purely opinion and speculation. There are set-ups that will break any tier list, and this is the OP's reflection on how skills/weapons are ranked. It's 100% plausible that someone can play a Warbow better than a Stormbow purely because of the style of play. The key to looking at this list is to keep in mind that most (not all) abilities are currently side-grades. As such, it's almost impossible to accurately ranks skills completely.

Side grades are an ideal more than they are a reality in most games. It's a nice goal for devs to work towards since it shows that they care about game balance and keeping the game from being p2w, but in the end there will almost always be a superior choice.

cmstache
30th Aug 2014, 21:21
If it's not a side-grade then it's a balance issue. While I agree not all weapons will be equal, even having a niche for a weapon is enough. The War bow is a perfect example of that. It's lacking in normal play, but it's CC power is beyond almost anything in the game. You can't judge everything on the same scale. Comparing a sunlight vial to a light bomb is a terrible idea. Alternatively, saying the siege bow is the same as the multi-bow is like comparing apples to oranges. The play styles and uses are completely opposite.

NefariousZ
30th Aug 2014, 21:47
There is no set guideline for how a tier list should be made. There is nothing to say a tier has to have more than one class/skill/item per tier.

If anything this list is more detailed than a standard tier list, and as such accurate information (about my opinions) for the reader.

I like how you say my "just don't play this" statement is inappropriate for a tier list, then go on to say tier 5 "not worth playing currently" is ok. I don't care if you disagree with my choice of semantics, the message I'm trying to get across is still accurate IMO, and many other good players agree. Either way I went back and changed the phrasing just for you baby-cakes.

P.S. Is it honestly that hard for you to understand the labeling of the list? It is quite simple, and you seem to be the only person confused by it. I'm willing to bet you are just nit-picking because your panties are in a bunch. If you really don't have the mental capacity to comprehend what the labeling means then it isn't worth explaining anything to you any ways (even non-native English speakers understand the numbers 1-4). It's really quite straight-forward.

You must be new to video games or at least to making tier list vs just a list. There is most definitely a difference between the two, not sure if english is your second language or?

There is a HUGE difference in having a bottom tier 5 "not worth playing" category and going through the time to list the reasons why in detail than simply writing "Just don't play this class, but if you do at least take healing so you aren't completely worthless" for an entire class and all of its abilities. Saying that adds nothing and makes you look like a boob.

A list is not more accurate than a tier list. A tier list is based around set definitions of each category so that they may be compared to each other. A list can mean anything. You're hunter number 3, how is it supposed to compare to the number 3 for scout? Is it equal? Or does it just happen to be above number 4...

I have no idea why you brought sex into the equation but I am male. Your forum nickname is quite appropriate, grats on picking a good name.

If you can't handle the slightest bit of criticism then do not attempt to post a tier list that passes judgement over the entire game and may influence the way others perceive things long term and where devs may end up balancing things long term...

You had your tiers listed as 2/3(rds?) and 1/2(half?) Perhaps you should consider your own mental capacity in math.

Aggggh
30th Aug 2014, 21:56
You had your tiers listed as 2/3(rds?) and 1/2(half?) Perhaps you should consider your own mental capacity in math.

It's fairly obviously that he meant rank 2 or 3 by that (as in they're both just about as good). It's certainly not something worth violating the forum rules over.

Mayhzon
31st Aug 2014, 00:14
It's fairly obviously that he meant rank 2 or 3 by that (as in they're both just about as good). It's certainly not something worth violating the forum rules over.
If he can't make up his mind about the tier levels, he might as well not make a tier list. Writing a tier list and then going "Oh this class is 2nd OR 3rd or something" is weak. Especially in a game that only offers 4 classes per faction (currently anyway).

Also, I wouldn't be quick to jump the forum rule gun. The thread creator lashed out first.

Aggggh
31st Aug 2014, 00:31
If he can't make up his mind about the tier levels, he might as well not make a tier list. Writing a tier list and then going "Oh this class is 2nd OR 3rd or something" is weak. Especially in a game that only offers 4 classes per faction (currently anyway).

Also, I wouldn't be quick to jump the forum rule gun. The thread creator lashed out first.
It's an indication that he believes that they're both just about as good, common sense would dictate that it's fairly clear that he has made up his mind on their relative effectiveness. In a proper tier list they'd be put in the same tier.

Two wrongs do not make a right :|

Mayhzon
31st Aug 2014, 01:18
Two wrongs do not make a right :|
No, but the more it's done wrong, the funnier it gets.

BR0sephStalin
31st Aug 2014, 05:40
You must be new to video games or at least to making tier list vs just a list. There is most definitely a difference between the two, not sure if english is your second language or?

There is a HUGE difference in having a bottom tier 5 "not worth playing" category and going through the time to list the reasons why in detail than simply writing "Just don't play this class, but if you do at least take healing so you aren't completely worthless" for an entire class and all of its abilities. Saying that adds nothing and makes you look like a boob.

A list is not more accurate than a tier list. A tier list is based around set definitions of each category so that they may be compared to each other. A list can mean anything. You're hunter number 3, how is it supposed to compare to the number 3 for scout? Is it equal? Or does it just happen to be above number 4...

I have no idea why you brought sex into the equation but I am male. Your forum nickname is quite appropriate, grats on picking a good name.

If you can't handle the slightest bit of criticism then do not attempt to post a tier list that passes judgement over the entire game and may influence the way others perceive things long term and where devs may end up balancing things long term...

You had your tiers listed as 2/3(rds?) and 1/2(half?) Perhaps you should consider your own mental capacity in math.

1. I never referenced your gender.
2. "The slash is most commonly used as the word substitute for "or" which indicates a choice (often mutually-exclusive) is present."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_(punctuation)
Anybody with half a brain could easily infer what the meaning of 1/2 or 2/3 by the context. You aren't fooling anybody suggesting you were confused. If you were confused, then you need to work on your deductive reasoning skills. Either way, the format is fine.
3. "Tier List" or "List." It doesn't really matter what you want to call it. The post still serves the same purpose.
4. I can handle constructive criticism just fine. You are trying to find a problem with the list just because you want to. You have really only argued about the formatting and semantics. You've done little to nothing to add your thoughts on the general meaning of the post.

Nemesis777
31st Aug 2014, 06:36
If it's not a side-grade then it's a balance issue. While I agree not all weapons will be equal, even having a niche for a weapon is enough. The War bow is a perfect example of that. It's lacking in normal play, but it's CC power is beyond almost anything in the game. You can't judge everything on the same scale. Comparing a sunlight vial to a light bomb is a terrible idea. Alternatively, saying the siege bow is the same as the multi-bow is like comparing apples to oranges. The play styles and uses are completely opposite.
Is that so? Then all threads like these [ http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=16409 , http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=16591 , etc] are just terrible... Tell me more about that suicider Alchemists weapons damage, could you? :rolleyes:

cmstache
31st Aug 2014, 13:03
This thread has received a warning from the mod team previously and has continued to get out of hand. As such it has been forced to be closed for the time being. I recommend reviewing the Forum TOS, in particular Rules #5 (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?a=1#rule5), #6 (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?a=1#rule6), and #10 (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?a=1#rule10).