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View Full Version : Deadeye vs Steadiness - Nosgoth Human Perks



EMalum
18th Aug 2014, 14:21
Hey guys, made this video a few days ago for the subreddit but didn't get around to posting it here until now.

Quality isn't the greatest but everything should be getting fixed as I learn how to edit videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34mDkwQv8M
Deadeye vs Steadiness - Nosgoth Human Perks

Hopefully this will shed some light to those who don't know the difference. Thanks for watching, see you in game.

OnlyLogic
18th Aug 2014, 16:43
+rep :D

BR0sephStalin
18th Aug 2014, 23:33
All anybody needs to know is that you should never be running steadiness on any class. Deadeye is great for hunter/prophet IMO.

OnlyLogic
19th Aug 2014, 00:45
Reduced recoil? I'm going to be running it on every class except scout!!

RazielWarmonic
19th Aug 2014, 01:39
All anybody needs to know is that you should never be running steadiness on any class. Deadeye is great for hunter/prophet IMO.

^ p much

-Konf-
19th Aug 2014, 05:50
Great and informative video, I'm sure it'll help quite a few people on deciding which perk to buy.

All anybody needs to know is that you should never be running steadiness on any class.

The only classes I wouldn't run Steadiness on are Scout and Alchemist, only because I think they would benefit from other things better. Other than that I think it's a great perk. Then again, it all comes down to personal preference, but I wouldn't ever consider this perk to be useless.

Saturnity
19th Aug 2014, 06:50
If hunter recoil is giving you problems, just go and practice controlling it. You couldn't control your crosshairs without steadiness because you weren't used to it. It's not like Alchemist recoil where it's a sudden jerking motion; it's a constant rise. Hop on hunter and hold down left click until you can make your crosshairs stay at the same height. I like the spot here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEKeNhjeiVY

Even on classes with low rates of fire, you'll correct the recoil very quickly regardless of which perk you run. Just give it time and you'll get faster.

OnlyLogic
19th Aug 2014, 09:46
Saturnity, it's not giving me problems, it'd just be nicer to have. But I'll try everything out eventually.

EMalum
19th Aug 2014, 23:26
If hunter recoil is giving you problems, just go and practice controlling it. You couldn't control your crosshairs without steadiness because you weren't used to it. It's not like Alchemist recoil where it's a sudden jerking motion; it's a constant rise. Hop on hunter and hold down left click until you can make your crosshairs stay at the same height.

Hunter recoil isn't a constant rise. Crossbows have an inherent vertical and lateral kick per shot. When firing on full auto, recoil requires you to compensate by drawing the mouse downward but also left or right (randomly, per shot). At 4.3 rounds per second on full auto, you are experiencing approximately 4.3 vertical AND lateral kicks a second with no way of predicting which direction the crosshairs will travel.

There are three ways of correcting for recoil.

1. Manual compensation: Drawing the mouse in the opposite direction of the kick. Easy with vertical, a bit trickier for lateral. Relatively easy to manage at short ranges.

2. Burst firing: Controlling your rate of fire with bursts allows for more accuracy but at the cost of lower damage per second. Best used for medium-to-long ranges.

3. Steadiness: Steadiness effectively reduces the overall recoil you experience by 20%, which means the standard Repeater experiences roughly equal recoil as if the weapon had a fire rate of 3.4; this is to say that although you are still firing at the same rate, your crosshairs will travel less. You will still experience 4.3 kicks per second but they will have traveled less distance.

Illusa
19th Aug 2014, 23:50
First, nice vid OP.

Second, I want to see it without either and as stock.

Because to me, all that video shows is how exceptional both of those perks are at reducing skill to play the game. But if stock shows it is just as easy, then I stand corrected. But I saw an incredible gain in dmg after using either, so I don't really think the video will show differently. I went from doing 7-9k dmg to 11k-19k dmg, which is just crazy. I mean, I could have also got better during that time frame as well, but I doubt skill increase can cause an over 100% gain within a few days just after a perk change.

Personally, I'd love to see both go away or get highly reduced in their effectiveness. Because the video didn't even cover the bonuses you can get from your weapons as well. Imagine a weapon with steadiness and the deadeye perk on a hunter or priest. That is just plain unbalanced and silly to think about when the game wants to consider being competitive.

Saturnity
20th Aug 2014, 02:32
^All increasing random spread does is increase RNG influence, which is laughed at by many competitive shooter players. Recoil is no big deal in its current state, either.

Illusa
20th Aug 2014, 03:24
^^^

Well here is the thing.. while I understand rng is the devil it isn't the worst thing either if done correctly. But things taking skill totally away from the game are FAR worse than a little rng. At best steadyaim/deadeye perk + weapon should be 10%. And I am not sure that is even that good from a competitive standpoint. As that is just subtracting so much from the potential of skill caps and skill in general.

If the devs want players to have a certain dps range, having such crazy swings just due to a perk is not a good balance option. It throws it all out of wack. And that isn't good.

TendrilSavant
20th Aug 2014, 03:58
All increasing random spread does is increase RNG influence, which is laughed at by many competitive shooter players.
But Nosgoth isn't solely a shooter. I'd argue that spread is important to the game due to its asymmetry. There are other mechanics that shooters use when trying to lessen RNG influence, if that is an issue here; but they may or may not work for Nosgoth's combat.

Examples:

Low TTK; which rewards reaction time and accuracy
Recoil patterns; encourage practice and knowledge
Increased Spread and Recoil while moving; player must choose between mobility or accuracy

EMalum
20th Aug 2014, 05:27
First, nice vid OP.

Second, I want to see it without either and as stock.

Because to me, all that video shows is how exceptional both of those perks are at reducing skill to play the game. But if stock shows it is just as easy, then I stand corrected. But I saw an incredible gain in dmg after using either, so I don't really think the video will show differently. I went from doing 7-9k dmg to 11k-19k dmg, which is just crazy. I mean, I could have also got better during that time frame as well, but I doubt skill increase can cause an over 100% gain within a few days just after a perk change.

Personally, I'd love to see both go away or get highly reduced in their effectiveness. Because the video didn't even cover the bonuses you can get from your weapons as well. Imagine a weapon with steadiness and the deadeye perk on a hunter or priest. That is just plain unbalanced and silly to think about when the game wants to consider being competitive.

Thanks for the support.

I intend to do a video with side-by-side comparison of a stock recoil and Steadiness so we can accurately see the difference.

Weapon bonuses for Recoil Reduction and Spread Reduction are, as far as I've seen, capped at 8%. And since forging isn't in the game yet, the negative drawbacks are entirely random, meaning that you may end up with an undesirable weapon. Gaining a -8% spread bonus but a +8% recoil drawback isn't exactly ideal, you might be able to live with a -2% run speed. Even with the Steadiness perk and Recoil Reduction on your weapon, you're capped at a 28% bonus; this is not entirely overpowered, especially considering it's only really useful for a handful of weapons.

Competitive balance isn't really an issue here because of the side-switching mechanic. I don't feel as though the minor RNG introduced by spread or the bonus stacking for recoil reduction are even a factor because both teams have access to the same utilities. And if they are determined imbalanced by the competitive community, they can be disabled or banned from competitive play.

Saturnity
20th Aug 2014, 08:39
^^^


I don't understand why you think increasing random spread by removing those perks will raise the skill floor. All it will do is decrease effective range. Even if increasing spread made humans require more skill to play, that's not what this game needs competitively without making vampires much harder to play.

Humans do need some nerfs because of how unbalanced top tier play is at the moment, but raising the skill floor like you're suggesting is not the way to fix it. In fact, it will make the situation worse. The competitive viability of this game is being held wayyy far back because new players can't handle playing as humans nearly as well as vampires. In games with top players, humans are very overpowered. In lower skilled games, vampires are a bit stronger than humans. The devs can't give vampires much-needed buffs or humans much-needed nerfs without breaking the lower and middle tiers of play.

Also, the perks don't make nearly the kind of difference you described. I've gotten as high as 37k damage and as low as 12k damage on the same loadout since March. The teams are what cause damage to change, not 1/5th less spread as opposed to something like +10% clip size. The reason why recoil looked so severe in OP's video is that he wasn't used to controlling a little extra force. Recoil rises quite quickly regardless of the perk you choose.

@tendril:
This game doesn't need to become Counter Strike. That last bullet point you suggested is cancer, I'm sorry. It's a matter of opinion, but dynamic movement is an important part of an interesting competitive game.

BR0sephStalin
20th Aug 2014, 08:47
Great and informative video, I'm sure it'll help quite a few people on deciding which perk to buy.


The only classes I wouldn't run Steadiness on are Scout and Alchemist, only because I think they would benefit from other things better. Other than that I think it's a great perk. Then again, it all comes down to personal preference, but I wouldn't ever consider this perk to be useless.

It doesn't come down to personal preference, it comes down to personal skill. Bad players might like steadiness because it makes aiming easier since their recoil control is terrible/nonexistent. Good players want deadeye to reduce RNG. It really is that simple. Running steadiness will just stunt the progress of even poor players.

Prime_Abstergo
20th Aug 2014, 12:10
Yea sure tell me now how 'good' is your Deadeye on default & piercing prophet pistols :rolleyes:

Illusa
20th Aug 2014, 12:37
I don't understand why you think increasing random spread by removing those perks will raise the skill floor. All it will do is decrease effective range. Even if increasing spread made humans require more skill to play, that's not what this game needs competitively without making vampires much harder to play.

Humans do need some nerfs because of how unbalanced top tier play is at the moment, but raising the skill floor like you're suggesting is not the way to fix it. In fact, it will make the situation worse. The competitive viability of this game is being held wayyy far back because new players can't handle playing as humans nearly as well as vampires. In games with top players, humans are very overpowered. In lower skilled games, vampires are a bit stronger than humans. The devs can't give vampires much-needed buffs or humans much-needed nerfs without breaking the lower and middle tiers of play.

Also, the perks don't make nearly the kind of difference you described. I've gotten as high as 37k damage and as low as 12k damage on the same loadout since March. The teams are what cause damage to change, not 1/5th less spread as opposed to something like +10% clip size. The reason why recoil looked so severe in OP's video is that he wasn't used to controlling a little extra force. Recoil rises quite quickly regardless of the perk you choose.

@tendril:
This game doesn't need to become Counter Strike. That last bullet point you suggested is cancer, I'm sorry. It's a matter of opinion, but dynamic movement is an important part of an interesting competitive game.

A lot of my argument comes for the sake of how easy it is to snipe with those classes due to 2 perks. Which the scout is supposed to be the main guy for. I don't mind completely tossing out all the rng and dropping the two perks totally. But then things need implemented. Such as bullet drop off and or adding range caps.

Alch = close range
Priest/Hunter = mid range
Scout = long range

Currently
Alch = close range
Priest/Hunter = all ranges
Scout = long range

That is the brokenness I am seeing because of 2 perks.

Point click hitscan weapons are by far one of the easiest things to work with in games. People easily learn those skills and can be very robotic in nature when it comes to that. Having perks around that increase the ability to do that is just plain wrong. There are better ways to handle the whole thing.

Like I said, RNG was primarily being used in games to limit the effectiveness of guns at X ranges so they didn't have to worry about bullet drop off damage. It was far easier to do at the time. Then people switched to bullet drop off because it felt better, your aim was your aim. Now I would argue that RNG is needed because people simply are too good at pointing at pixels and shooting. There is no way to add challenge to aiming in Nosgoth short of adding a ton more random recoil. That leaves us really with only RNG. And don't get me wrong, this is just RNG on the primary human weapons, not their abilities.

Also I too understand that teams can make a huge difference. But like I also stated, the change of it was instant in terms of damage being done. I would challenge everyone saying both powers are not OP by asking them to not use either for a week and see how they fair. Why a week? Because you are not used to not using it and hopefully by the end of that week we would really know how much the perks really do. What I expect you would see is a change in play style mostly and then the question is.. is that play style wrong? Is it more balanced in terms of classes?

Wither or not Humans on a whole need changes, yeah they obviously are a bit strong and this may not be the right answer to fix that. But I am not aiming to fix that, I am aiming to fix a core issue first and then thinking about fixing balance after that is fixed. I am in no way saying removing both perks is going to balance humans vs vampires. I am saying this is a core issue and core issues need solved before balance issues.

BR0sephStalin
20th Aug 2014, 16:30
Yea sure tell me now how 'good' is your Deadeye on default & piercing prophet pistols :rolleyes:

Bad because piercing pistols are bad and only bad or uninformed players would use them.

Aggggh
20th Aug 2014, 16:33
Yea sure tell me now how 'good' is your Deadeye on default & piercing prophet pistols :rolleyes:

What? Prophet benefits the most out of any class from deadeye. What does it matter which pistols you're using?