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blais21
16th Aug 2015, 12:44
Give them swords and a melee attack. Weapon throw is cool but don't you think if we wanted to do ranged damage we would choose from the multitude of other classes? Also get rid of the kama/axe thing. Just go swords. Shields are fine.
Also if we could search USEast/West at the same time that would be dynamite. :thumb:

:Also: I understand you want to keep to the lore and the Legacy of Kain story but.. yeah swords and melee.

Bazielim
16th Aug 2015, 13:57
I don't think it's really due to lore concerns, more the basic nature of the gameplay.
The game is meant to be based around ranged Vs melee - a couple of classes like the Vanguard and Summoner bend those a little, but anything that is completely in the other camp would change the whole dynamic.

SonixSquad
16th Aug 2015, 14:38
Plus all humans have the ability to melee with the butt of their weps.

Heretic_13
16th Aug 2015, 15:45
New one here. Well i always wondered why humans have only one animation for melee attack, and not even a stupid knife, or dagger equipped, only bashing(common sense, even today every foot solider carry at least one knife- not including bayonetts)? And why in (Elder)god`s name things like hunter whip need to "cool down"??? That weapon is hard enough to control, after it hits something, that i don`t think coll down is needed at all "It will destroy game balance dude...". No, it would not. Vampires can pounce, charge, fly, shatter ground, jump several meters in to the air, throw around, kick, like a kung-fu master, and do other nasty tricks like disguie, or summon ghouls. THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING. THEY ARE HUNTING. They don`t fight fair and square, so instead moaning about "unbalanced game" use tactics, that allow you killing humans painless. Every leech has set of skills that allow him/her to break human unity, make them disperse
Few years back there was a game Alien vs Predator 3- short stories in singleplayer, but it was the multiplayer that kept people. Marines- distance attack, predator- middle distance, and close quaters, and alien- only close quaters combat. And know what? Marines can bash, and block the hell out of others, as well as shoot them in the face from across the map, and still it was balanced, no one had advantage over anybody, it only required common sense- alien can pounce, and break through block? Then interupt heavy punch in the middle with lighter hit. Marines can shoot? Take them form the rear. Predator has cloak? And i have granades. A so on. Granted, still no knife, but it was torelabe
And know what? You think that giving humans melee weapons would change balance? I have idea. Give melee weapons to vampires also- some main weaons and then sidearms. Some Viking-like axe to Turelim, swords to Dumahim, main-gauches to Zehonim(or this ninja daggers, whatever they are called), maces to Razielim, long krises(dark ritual-looking daggers) to Melchiahim, some short dussack, or cutlass to Rahabim(sea man weapon), then ability to block for all races, and heavy attack for vampires- attack able to break through block. Maybe possibility to throw main weapon for vampires? Let say you are Dumahim, and run away from hunter that shoots at you. You throw, and impale him whith your sword(would be hard enough), and then fall back to some knife, identical for all members of one clan? And no, Vaguard would not be outmatched. He still has shield, unique abilities, and several axes, not one main weapon, that is needed
I think, that adding this options really would change Nosgoth in to really fast paced(faster than now), bloody battles. And even if i am entirely on the side of humans(i only like to kill bloodsuckers), would still love to see some hard-to-kill, armed to the teeth(literally), armored vampires :)
And pardon me my english

Ygdrasel
16th Aug 2015, 20:08
You think that giving humans melee weapons would change balance?

Nobody thinks that. The nature of the gameplay is the issue. Human melee is limited to (essentially) pistol-whipping because their focus is ranged attack. Period.

And the whip needs to cool down because it's an ability. Obviously.

Besides, swords are cliche. At least the axe is a little more original.

GenFeelGood
16th Aug 2015, 21:38
I will be beyond frustrated if humans get melee weapons before the vampires do, they are going in with their bare hands for Elder God's sake; but to the topic at hand, only the alchemist clubs the vamps for melee. The Prophet and Hunter employ more of a bayonet style melee if you look a little closer at their equipment; and the base Prophet skin is sporting a wrist blade. The Scout does a swinging uppercut with his bow, which is either spiked or bladed.

Heretic_13
17th Aug 2015, 06:40
Well i don`t "attack" game mechanic itself, nor i say that all my ideas are good(for example: probably, no, definietly would take a lot of work to implement weapons, and even some simple combinations of attacks in to the game). And most definietly i don`t say that one race should have melee weapons and the other- not. All or nothing.
BUT... I only think, that it is ridicoulous to go into the fray armed only with projectile weapon, or NO WEAPON AT ALL!
"Humans are equipped with deadly weapons, but vampires are weapons"(or somethin`)... so when you are badass enough you don`t need even a freaking knife? I cannot even begin to start pointing what is wrong with that.
I am sorry for wandering off topic, but please bare with me. It so happens, that for last five years i`ve been trainig with swords- with master, bare hands- also with master, and from about year or so with dagger- by myself(from translated medieval treatises), and even if i am no master, or expert, i can assure you all- i can relatively easy beat the s##t out of people that are better than me, if i am armed and they are not. Sword is one thing, but in fact dagger, or even a short knife, is a real game changer- i don`t need to kill opponent in one thrust, "liek in-on de muffie wiff Jet Lee hurr durr", but i can bleed them dry, make them weak(of course during sparring it is only simulated), and then go in for the kill. And no fancy high kick to the head(i cut you tendons), nor elegant disarms(i will hit you in the head with left fist, and then stab you, for example) can help you, when i can do the same AND i have weapon. Knife is a thing that recquire involvement of other limbs in attacking, more than any other weapon
So from my poiunt o view, by all means put all kind of melee weapons and mechanics along with them into the game. In fact that would really distinguished Nosgoth from all other multiplayer "kill`em all" games". One i can think of from the top of my head, that should have nice fight mechanics is upcoming "For Honor" but i am big fanboy of "Legacy..."(from 1997) sooooo...
Aha- swords aren`t chliche, neither are the axes, nor maces, or spears... All weapons are interesting and "fun", i only put swords in the hand of Dumahim, because they are described as "weapon experts", and unfortuanetly sword, mor or less, require most time put in to the traning, so the warrior would be "battle ready", compared to other weapons(and you don`t need to worry- i meant something like side sword, or espada ropera- i am not a fan o viking swords). Well sabre is also nice, and quick(BUT NO KATANA- freaking hate them `cuz of the hype). Turelim also is good at swiniging metal, i think, but they are more brutish so of course- axe- long handle= reach= lot of flying limbs, a lot of impact, still can cut and chop, like a sword, and don`t recquire as much traning. Maces for Razielim, because they fly, and such a short weapon would not interfere with flight ability and still have enough weight to bash in some skulls. Krises and main gauches to Melchiahim and Zephonim- long daggers for assasins and mages, that don`t necessarily like to go toe-to-to with oponents, but that kind of weapon is still long enough to give nasty cuts and deadly thrusts, and always good for backstabing. And some sort of short bladed weapon for Rahabim, so they could swing, or thrust, it under water(yeah i know, they won`t do that now, even if they appear in game but i think of it as a part of thier image :) )
So all this unnecessary writing from me is only to maybeee inspire someone to, i don`t know, maybeee put some weapons...
P.S.
Rahabim should have lasers on thier heads :D "All i ask for is sharks with frickin` laser beams attached to thier heads"

GrayPhilosophy
17th Aug 2015, 10:05
New one here. Well i always wondered why humans have only one animation for melee attack, and not even a stupid knife, or dagger equipped, only bashing(common sense, even today every foot solider carry at least one knife- not including bayonetts)? And why in (Elder)god`s name things like hunter whip need to "cool down"???. . . . .long post cropped for space


I see your point here, but I've gotta defend the argument in favor of game mechanics (ranged vs. melee, cooldown on abilities etc.)

If common sense was taken into consideration with everything in Nosgoth, It'd be an entirely different game. Well placed headshots ought to be able to instantly kill or at least severely injure a vampire (I don't think having a bolt or arrow straight through the skull feels very nice, even for vampires) Whips and melee weapons ought to be "spammable", long bows shouldn't take nearly as long to draw, but also shouldn't be able to be held for very long etc.
Additionally, considering how strong vampires seem to be (Like that one reaver execution where he punches a hole through the stomac of a still armoured human, not to mention sentinels being able to lift a fully geared person while flying, or how powerful tyrants legs must be for that jump, etc.), they should basically be able to straight up murder a human in one, or very few hits, seeing as they're probably strong enough to rip their heads off with brute force. Maybe with the exception of decievers because they're all crippled.

While that on its own would be a cool game, it wouldn't be anywhere near what Nosgoth is going for.

Heretic_13
17th Aug 2015, 10:39
I know. It just that i am Slav. We like to **** and moan over everything without getting anything done by ourselves :P That was only little rant without really any meaning
But i do second idea of Vanguard having more than one simple swing with the axe. Maybe some simple 3-4 moves combination- but for the price of loosing shield(don`t even start- some trade off is a normal thing- give him a buckler then, or wathewer)

Heretic_13
18th Aug 2015, 12:25
Additionally, considering how strong vampires seem to be (Like that one reaver execution where he punches a hole through the stomac of a still armoured human, not to mention sentinels being able to lift a fully geared person while flying, or how powerful tyrants legs must be for that jump, etc.), they should basically be able to straight up murder a human in one, or very few hits, seeing as they're probably strong enough to rip their heads off with brute force. Maybe with the exception of decievers because they're all crippled.

Why vampires need armor then? Why not only some trousers, and vests for vampire is female- if they feel shame at all- which is not likely, we talk about creatures that tend to torture, strip of skin, and rip the throats out- So they don`t need weapons, because they are strong and sturdy enough? Well, they don`t need armor then- because they are strong and sturdy enough
But this is a debate for other topic in other part of the forum i think

GrayPhilosophy
19th Aug 2015, 06:55
Why vampires need armor then? Why not only some trousers, and vests for vampire is female- if they feel shame at all- which is not likely, we talk about creatures that tend to torture, strip of skin, and rip the throats out- So they don`t need weapons, because they are strong and sturdy enough? Well, they don`t need armor then- because they are strong and sturdy enough
But this is a debate for other topic in other part of the forum i think

Strong doesn't necessarily equal durable, I never said anything about that. Just cause you're strong doesn't mean it's a bad idea to protect yourself. But yes, probably a different discussion.

Back on topic. Even though I agree it would look super badass if Vanguards were given proper melee weapons and attacks, humans are supposed to be ranged, and so they are. Arguably humans would want to stay at range exactly because vampires are so strong compared to themselves. So much that gearing up for melee combat seems almost suicidal. With that in mind, I think it's perfectly reasonable that they have throwing axes.