PDA

View Full Version : Class Stack Limit Poll & Discussion



SonixSquad
15th Aug 2015, 04:36
There has been pockets of discussion on this here and there. Lets discuss this properly.
Please indicate your preference via the poll (multiple choice) and post your arguments for and against class stack limitation bearing in mind we are primarily talking about ranked and unranked tdm for now.

I will start.
I'm for limiting stacking in ranked to encourage more varied tactics, provide a more entertaining match and to prevent certain class combos being too effective against newer players who can't adapt for one reason or another.

I don't mind stacking in unranked, this allows newer players to play everything and unlock stuff.

DISCLAIMER: Please keep your flaming to yourself. Lets keep it civil. Anyone that has been in a match with me knows I change class constantly to adapt my tactics around my team and the enemy team until something works.

Most newer players don't realise this or as some have suggested have not unlocked everything in order to react and adapt properly. So, the 'learn2counter' argument is null in some cases as players simply cannot change to a suitable build.
Hence the 2 options for limiting in unranked and ranked.

This is also not about 'stacking is OP and must be nerfed' but rather about gauging what most of the players that visit these forums think, wether you agree or not. Ofc, as is the case in these kinds of things, a lot of players never visit forums so this is not the complete opinion of every player but its something and hopefully people can post more constructive opinions other than flaming and such pointless posts and just repeating the same thing.
Please actually post reasons for and against, or just vote.

Thanks.

KaininitePriestess
15th Aug 2015, 06:38
I vote absolutely no limits on class stacking. The classes can always be countered. I've seen teams of 3 of the same class get mopped up like they were worms before. If you play right, you can break through a stack easily.

RainRaven
15th Aug 2015, 06:52
I haven't really noticed this being a problem in Ranked? I mean in Unranked, sure, it's frustrating when a group of people do nothing but all-Tyrant game after game. In Ranked everyone gets shuffled every game so you don't have that repeating factor. Not to mention people that play ranked seem better able to shut that kind of thing down. Gone all Deceiver with a team and still lost. It was close, but it sure wasn't the problem this is making it out to be. Stacked teams everyone has one weakness, you just need to know how to counter them just like any other team.

KaininitePriestess
15th Aug 2015, 07:03
^^^ This. If they're stacking all of one class, you just have to exploit their weaknesses, and with that in mind, it can potentially be used to your advantage, since you don't have to focus on multiple strategies at the same time.

GenFeelGood
15th Aug 2015, 07:10
The only stacking I seem to be unable to overcome is tyrants, being chain stunned or knocked around until I'm dead.

Gugulug5000
15th Aug 2015, 08:30
I voted not to limit class stacking whatsoever. Beating a group of class stacking players isn't any more difficult than beating a varied group. If you get thrashed by a team who all played the same class, you were probably going to get thrashed no matter what class they played. I'm with Psyonix on this one; don't limit people's choices just because someone else chose the class first.

As for people thinking it's less fun to play against a stack, one of my favorite matches that I ever played was against 4 Sentinels. A couple of us just switched to War Bow Scouts and it was amazingly fun. All a matter of opinion though.

Da_Wolv
15th Aug 2015, 08:51
The only stacking I seem to be unable to overcome is tyrants, being chain stunned or knocked around until I'm dead.

Positioning, Bola and Hex Shot. Done.

RainaAudron
15th Aug 2015, 10:14
I think there should be class limit in ranked, with no limit in unranked.

GenocidePete
15th Aug 2015, 12:40
lol. If you don't like class stacking, learn how to counter your enemy's class picks. Losing generally tends to dissuade people from attempting such things.

There is no four-man class combination that's "too effective," because choosing four of ANY class (except, perhaps, hunter) leaves holes in a team's ability to respond to certain threats. Somewhere on this forum exists a thread that explains how to defeat every four-man class combination. Read it and adapt instead of senselessly trying to impose restrictions on players simply because a few of you had bad experiences against teams who were in all likelihood toying with you because you stood no chance in the first place.

SonixSquad
15th Aug 2015, 14:37
I was expecting certain 'lol learn to counter' posts but anyone that has been in a match with me knows I change class constantly to adapt my tactics around my team and the enemy team until something works.

Most newer players don't realise this or as some have suggested have not unlocked everything in order to react and adapt properly. So, the 'learn2counter' argument is null in some cases as players simply cannot change to a suitable build.
Hence the 2 options for limiting in unranked and ranked.

This is also not about 'stacking is OP and must be nerfed' but rather about gauging what most of the players that visit these forums think, wether you agree or not. Ofc, as is the case in these kinds of things, a lot of players never visit forums so this is not the complete opinion of every player but its something and hopefully people can post more constructive opinions other than flaming and such pointless posts and just repeating the same thing.
Please actually post reasons for and against, or just vote.

Thanks.

ApollosBow
15th Aug 2015, 16:21
Limit in ranked....but only to stop stack of 4....ie 4 tyrants, easy to counter yes, but you'd be surprised how many player refuse top switch to counter classes.

Louves
15th Aug 2015, 16:56
The only class stack limit I want to see is in CTB game mode (aka Alchemist vs Tyrant mode). I don't care about TDM. If you have - let's say - 3 players in your team who main deceiver and can't play a different vampire class you should not force one of them to play a class they can't play and/or don't enjoy.

GenocidePete
15th Aug 2015, 17:34
Please keep your flaming to yourself. I was expecting certain 'lol learn to counter' posts but really you're just making yourself look silly and underage because anyone that has been in a match with me knows I change class constantly to adapt my tactics around my team and the enemy team until something works.

Most newer players don't realise this or as some have suggested have not unlocked everything in order to react and adapt properly. So, the 'learn2counter' argument is null in some cases as players simply cannot change to a suitable build.
Hence the 2 options for limiting in unranked and ranked.

This is also not about 'stacking is OP and must be nerfed' but rather about gauging what most of the players that visit these forums think, wether you agree or not. Ofc, as is the case in these kinds of things, a lot of players never visit forums so this is not the complete opinion of every player but its something and hopefully people can post more constructive opinions other than flaming and such pointless posts and just repeating the same thing.
Please actually post reasons for and against, or just vote.

Thanks.
The notion that LIMITING players' class choices will somehow increase tactical variability seems obviously wrong. The only way this would make any sort of sense is if "class stacking" is a rampant occurrence, which certainly hasn't been my experience with this game.

I would be interested to see statistics on how many matches have had a team use 3+ of the same class for any amount of time, though I suspect that your feelings on the matter are more a product of confirmation bias than any legitimate claim. Humans are terribly flawed pattern-seeking creatures: it's easy to lose a game and erroneously attribute that loss to something that had nothing to do with the actual cause. Should we alter the game to appease those who suffer from this illusion? I'd say no.

Bazielim
15th Aug 2015, 21:17
Okay guys, can we keep the personal jabs to a minimum and stick to the topic at hand? Cheers.

ApollosBow
15th Aug 2015, 21:52
Okay guys, can we keep the personal jabs to a minimum and stick to the topic at hand? Cheers.

pppfff You would say that wouldn't you Baz.......because............YE!

juke

SonixSquad
15th Aug 2015, 22:13
Thanks Baz.

First, lets get one thing clear here before any further discussion because of attempts to suggest I made this thread due to personally having problems dealing with stacking in games.

The only issue I have with stacking personally (and I'm sure this affects EVERYONE who queues solo unranked and NOT just me) is that I find it boring especially in pubstomps where its a premade versus random game (and mostly new players) who it is very difficult to coordinate anything with. In this situation, stacking is a very uncreative method of overpowering the other team and I find it extremely boring.
Does this mean it should be nerfed? Noone asked that. I'm fine with what the majority wants. This is a discussion, everyones entitled to their opinion.

Secondly, regarding your point of 'limiting cannot increase diversity'.

Ever heard of the concept 'less is more' ?

It basically notions that having more of a certain thing does not necessarily equal actually having more and that sometimes having less can equate to having more because you have to start to be creative in order to create more options rather than just using what you deem to be the best option available to you.

So lets get that clear, its not a personal thing, I'm looking at the bigger picture.
I like this game and want it to succeed. I have seen A TON of new games over the years try to start up a community, last a little and then die.
You know what the common factor is that usually causes the death of a competitive game? Elitism. Ironic or what lol.
Devs trying to keep the competitive/veteran community happy but at the same time its the NEWBLOOD that keeps the game fresh, not the veterans. Without newblood, the game will slowly die. Fact. Its happened numerous times before, hence I speak up about my concerns.

So to summarise, What would limiting class stacking achieve?
1> More creativity using the classes (less is more).
2> More personalisation via creativity. Having to think up new ways will help individuals stand out. Hive mind/stacking = borg.
3> Allowing newer players with less stuff unlocked the room to develop & get into the game without being pubstomped by the lowest common denominator stack.

Okay, I've sort of gone off on a tangent, but hopefully some of that comes across as logical.

KaininitePriestess
15th Aug 2015, 22:47
I honestly never had a problem being "bored" when playing this game, just adding my two cents in. I've seen plenty of class stacking. That's never contributed to a "boring" match. Sometimes an infuriating one after you get pounded by three Tyrants in a row, but even then it was more "ARGH! :gamer:" before I tried to help the team recoordinate so we could catch them before they got us a second time.

Not to mention, back during the closed beta when me and a group of friends were playing and the other team of vampires all stacked Deceiver and popped disguises at the exact same time. On the other side of the match. And just walked up to us like "Hey guys, how's it goin? :V" while we were like "OMG. WAT. LOL OMG GAIZ RLY?" We all cracked up really hard before blasting them away at the same time.

Gugulug5000
15th Aug 2015, 22:54
So to summarise, What would limiting class stacking achieve?
1> More creativity using the classes (less is more).
2> More personalisation via creativity. Having to think up new ways will help individuals stand out. Hive mind/stacking = borg.
3> Allowing newer players with less stuff unlocked the room to develop & get into the game without being pubstomped by the lowest common denominator stack.

My thoughts on your points:
I disagree with the less is more point here. Being able to stack classes creates more possible combinations of classes. Yes there is less variety within the team, but overall there are more potential class combinations. Plus having a team of 4 Tyrants doesn't mean that they will all be using the same loadout. If the dev team keeps creating more abilities for all of the classes, there is the potential to have four people playing the same class with completely different loadouts.

The new player thing is pretty valid point though. It would be tough to counter Sentinel stacking with only the main classes unlocked, but not impossible. The Hunters would still do a pretty good job, but it could be easier with some Scouts. I think that if matchmaking actually puts new players against other new players, this would be a non issue. Maybe this is something that would just be fixed by having a higher player population.

SonixSquad
15th Aug 2015, 23:24
I honestly never had a problem being "bored" when playing this game, just adding my two cents in. I've seen plenty of class stacking. That's never contributed to a "boring" match. Sometimes an infuriating one after you get pounded by three Tyrants in a row, but even then it was more "ARGH! :gamer:" before I tried to help the team recoordinate so we could catch them before they got us a second time.

Yep, don't get me wrong, as I said I like playing this game and am rarely bored except when a team decided to pop a Sent or Tyrant stack and then I'm like 'really, *sigh*'. Thats it, otherwise I thoroughly enjoy this game most of the time.


My thoughts on your points:
I disagree with the less is more point here. Being able to stack classes creates more possible combinations of classes. Yes there is less variety within the team, but overall there are more potential class combinations. Plus having a team of 4 Tyrants doesn't mean that they will all be using the same loadout. If the dev team keeps creating more abilities for all of the classes, there is the potential to have four people playing the same class with completely different loadouts.

Theres a few IF's in there. If they create more abilities, then yes I can see the potential to have a Tyrant team with more variation between them than just Jump Smash, Jump Throw, and Charge Smash, Charge Throw. Maybe my issue is with variety of builds then.


The new player thing is pretty valid point though. It would be tough to counter Sentinel stacking with only the main classes unlocked, but not impossible. The Hunters would still do a pretty good job, but it could be easier with some Scouts. I think that if matchmaking actually puts new players against other new players, this would be a non issue. Maybe this is something that would just be fixed by having a higher player population.

No doubt, player population increase would help the MM work better but I think the current mechanics to guide new players in the right direction could do with a bit of a tweak. Players learn from playing the best. No tutorial will teach you everything, but if all they are learning is to stack, then they are not really learning and they will drop the game after their stack fails.


In fact, after some thought, I've sort of done a 180 degree turn on the subject.
I think there could be some benefits to limiting stacking in Unranked only. :nut:

ApollosBow
16th Aug 2015, 03:43
Also on a side note.......Call of Duty BL3 is trying very hard to break into the competitive seen more and they just introduced a system to stop class stacking. Not the best game to make the sale of blocking stacks lol I know, but thought the news was interesting and in sync with the timing of this thread.