PDA

View Full Version : Is Kate lying? *spoilers*



Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 11:06
Since discussion about this was risen in a topic nearby, i think it would be reasonable enough to create separate topic on this matter.

Is there any chance that Kate Marsh lied to Maxine? Or did not tell her everything? Or was mistaken about something?

There are some quite strange details in this case, let us start with one:

Kate heard someone soft voice and then she heard Nathan's voice. This voice presumably belongs to Jefferson. But wait, why Kate wasn't able to recognize it?

There clearly was some king of struggle between Kate and Jefferson just prior her suicide (attempt). And yet, Kate never mentions Jefferson in a conversation with Maxine. Not a single time.

NayaBR
14th Aug 2015, 11:23
She was drugged, what do you expect? :confused:

Sneddonator
14th Aug 2015, 11:34
My 'guess' is that, as a last resort, Kate approached Jefferson for advice on what to do about her situation. Perhaps he was one of the only teachers she thought she could trust. Before she left the conversation she says "so you can't help me?"

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 11:37
She was drugged, what do you expect? :confused:
Was she? And if she really was... then by whom?

My 'guess' is that, as a last resort, Kate approached Jefferson for advice on what to do about her situation. Perhaps he was one of the only teachers she thought she could trust. Before she left the conversation she says "so you can't help me?"

And also: "I am not important to you anymore.":) Is she was important? What?

Sneddonator
14th Aug 2015, 11:51
Was she? And if she really was... then by whom?


And also: "I am not important to you anymore.":) Is she was important? What?

I missed that last line. Will need to go back and have another play.

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 12:20
I missed that last line. Will need to go back and have another play.

We have youtube. It is not like i'm remember all of this either. :)

There is something else on this matter. It's seems highly unlikely that Kate was drugged by Nathan. If we assume that Vortex Club parties was meant to cover up kidnappings, it would be unbelievably stupid for kidnapper to draw attention to their victim by drugging her like this.

Furthermore, when Nathan tried to drug Chloe the effect was the exact opposite.

And, Nathan, if accused by Maxine, clearly states that content of viral video contradicts Maxine claims. Unfortunately (khe-khe) we don't know it's content yet.

And so, we have more than enough reasons to assume that Kate wasn't drugged by Nathan. And since we have no other suspects, we may assume that she wasn't drugged at all.

Tataboj
14th Aug 2015, 12:28
We have youtube. It is not like i'm remember all of this either. :)

There is something else on this matter. It's seems highly unlikely that Kate was drugged by Nathan. If we assume that Vortex Club parties was meant to cover up kidnappings, it would be unbelievably stupid for kidnapper to draw attention to their victim by drugging her like this.

Furthermore, when Nathan tried to drug Chloe the effect was the exact opposite.

And, Nathan, if accused by Maxine, clearly states that content of viral video contradicts Maxine claims. Unfortunately (khe-khe) we don't know it's content yet.

And so, we have more than enough reasons to assume that Kate wasn't drugged by Nathan. And since we have no other suspects, we may assume that she wasn't drugged at all.

Kate might be in Jefferson's interest and J. convinced Nathan to drug Kate, whilst Chloe was Nathan's attempt since there is no Chloe's file in the Dark Room.

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 12:37
Kate might be in Jefferson's interest and J. convinced Nathan to drug Kate
Well, we can assume that. But in order to this assumption make sense, we should answer this two questions first:

- Did Jefferson really want Kate to go wild?

- Why Nathan is so sure that viral video contradicts Maxine's claims?

RaulRoque
14th Aug 2015, 17:44
Since discussion about this was risen in a topic nearby, i think it would be reasonable enough to create separate topic on this matter.

Is there any chance that Kate Marsh lied to Maxine? Or did not tell her everything? Or was mistaken about something?

There are some quite strange details in this case, let us start with one:

Kate heard someone soft voice and then she heard Nathan's voice. This voice presumably belongs to Jefferson. But wait, why Kate wasn't able to recognize it?

There clearly was some king of struggle between Kate and Jefferson just prior her suicide (attempt). And yet, Kate never mentions Jefferson in a conversation with Maxine. Not a single time.

She's clearly being threatened by him or someone else. That's why she keeps her mouth shut.

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 17:55
She's clearly being threatened by him or someone else. That's why she keeps her mouth shut.

She publicly shouted at Jefferson. So it is pretty clear that she was not afraid.

RaulRoque
14th Aug 2015, 18:01
She publicly shouted at Jefferson. So it is pretty clear that she was not afraid.

Where?

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 18:11
Where?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3o7Qp3iXqw

Here, on 2:47:32. She is clearly do not afraid of him. This could be anything, but it is clearly not fear.

RaulRoque
14th Aug 2015, 18:32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3o7Qp3iXqw

Here, on 2:47:32. She is clearly do not afraid of him. This could be anything, but it is clearly not fear.

Interesting. You're a detective.

I think she never saw him in action in the dark room, maybe? But that's confusing now, because we're seeing Jeff, but what if Max can't see him too because of the drugs?

Well, I can't speculate too much. The way is to wait for the next episode.

PS: But I'm sure of something: she's a victim. If she lied at some point, that's unintentional. Nobody dies just because is merely kidding. I think we can agree on that, right?

NayaBR
14th Aug 2015, 19:21
Of course she was drugged, it seems like we didn't play the same videogame.

She only drank a glass of vine, and she was used to because she drank vine when she'd go to the church.
If Nathan says the video is a "proof" against Max (never Maxine) accusation is because she was drugged so she was acting by "herself", noone was forcing her to do whatever she was doing but it was because she was high, surely because Nathan drugged her at the request of Jefferson. I don't know, it's obvious. Chloe was drugged too and even Rachel was drugged too in those parties.

RaulRoque
14th Aug 2015, 19:27
[...] Chloe was drugged too and even Rachel was drugged too in those parties.

Chloe drugged?

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 19:44
Of course she was drugged, it seems like we didn't play the same videogame.

The very same.


I don't know, it's obvious.

It is far from obvious.


Chloe was drugged too

Yes, indeed. And an effect of the drug was opposite.


surely because Nathan drugged her at the request of Jefferson.

But they had no reason to do that! In fact, the existence of viral video stroke them both badly.


I think she never saw him in action in the dark room, maybe?

But she clearly heard him. And i'm find it very strange, that she wasn't able recognize his voice, but was able recognize Nathan's voice.


If she lied at some point, that's unintentional.

But i'm never denied that possibility. If she was drunk and then was drugged, she could easily forget something.


Interesting. You're a detective.

Too much Ace Attorney, i suppose.:)

VUylvern
14th Aug 2015, 22:56
Maybe the devs overlooked some details about her story...maybe because they where focusing in the bullying stuff

Xeva-q
14th Aug 2015, 22:59
Maybe the devs overlooked some details about her story...maybe because they where focusing in the bullying stuff

You know - i'm always okay with inconsistencies:D.

VUylvern
15th Aug 2015, 00:07
You know - i'm always okay with inconsistencies:D.

:lol: they should've hired detectives as consultants :p

Xeva-q
15th Aug 2015, 00:09
:lol: they should've hired detectives as consultants :p

And maybe they are? I'm actually hope so! I hope that there are more in this story than meats the eye.

StrangerThanFiction
15th Aug 2015, 23:11
Kate: Drugs + Alcohol = Intense effect. Her drink was spiked (By whom is the better question. Everyone is pretty suspect in this case. Most likely Nathan.)

At the point she heard the soft voice, she was cognitively out of it (psychological term menaing that new information wouldn't stick as well. Nathan was already with her so she was easily able to recognize his presence [There is a psychological term for this but I'm exhausted too much to recall it].

Chloe: Straight up drugs = Not as intense.

That's why they warn you to never drink alcohol while taking your meds. Don't drink wine when taking your pills kids!!!

I mean....adults!,

(Brownie points if you know what inspired that last sentence.)

Xeva-q
17th Aug 2015, 02:47
Kate: Drugs + Alcohol = Intense effect. Her drink was spiked (By whom is the better question. Everyone is pretty suspect in this case. Most likely Nathan.)

Well, it might be true.

But IF this is a true... well, then this game is just stupid. Because something like that would be impossible in a real life.

Sneddonator
17th Aug 2015, 05:47
Kate: Drugs + Alcohol = Intense effect. Her drink was spiked (By whom is the better question. Everyone is pretty suspect in this case. Most likely Nathan.)

At the point she heard the soft voice, she was cognitively out of it (psychological term menaing that new information wouldn't stick as well. Nathan was already with her so she was easily able to recognize his presence [There is a psychological term for this but I'm exhausted too much to recall it].

Chloe: Straight up drugs = Not as intense.

That's why they warn you to never drink alcohol while taking your meds. Don't drink wine when taking your pills kids!!!

I mean....adults!,

(Brownie points if you know what inspired that last sentence.)

Sounds valid to me and could be the case. She could have then been given an additional dose of that 'clear' drug Jefferson injects his victims with afterwards.

Xeva-q
17th Aug 2015, 06:13
Sounds valid to me and could be the case. She could have then been given an additional dose of that 'clear' drug Jefferson injects his victims with afterwards.

In real life it does not makes any sense. Simply put:

Sedative + Sedative != Stimulant

Furthermore, if you chose to believe Kate, "one drop of red wine" it is not enough to have mix effect.

And so, if creators have any brains this explanation won't work.

But i am not sure about it.

Tataboj
17th Aug 2015, 07:31
In real life it does not makes any sense. Simply put:

Sedative + Sedative != Stimulant

Furthermore, if you chose to believe Kate, "one drop of red wine" it is not enough to have mix effect.

And so, if creators have any brains this explanation won't work.

But i am not sure about it.

Drugging Kate may be Jefferson's initiative and drugging Kate Nathan's, so there could have been two types of drugs used.

What about to be positive and try to make things possible instead of permanent deprecation?

Xeva-q
17th Aug 2015, 07:58
Drugging Kate may be Jefferson's initiative and drugging Kate Nathan's, so there could have been two types of drugs used.

What about to be positive and try to make things possible instead of permanent deprecation?
They have no reason to drug her like this. It is imposible for them to do so by accident.

And yes, i am trying to make think possible, but youu do not like it.

For example, in this case it may be possible and consistent only if Kate is lying.

Tataboj
17th Aug 2015, 09:13
They have no reason to drug her like this. It is imposible for them to do so by accident.

And yes, i am trying to make think possible, but youu do not like it.

For example, in this case it may be possible and consistent only if Kate is lying.

Drugging Chloe might be Nathan's initiative, and Nathan could have used wrong type since he perhaps doesn't know these things very well. Chloe was perhaps Nathan's attempt to do things like Jefferson.

StrangerThanFiction
17th Aug 2015, 12:06
Well, it might be true.

But IF this is a true... well, then this game is just stupid. Because something like that would be impossible in a real life.

It all depends on what drug was used and how a person reacts to it. Same with alcohol.

Also, we're taking about a game where the maim protagonist can rewind time. It's fictional and, as such, isn't supposed to be compared completely against what can happen in real life. There are several things in LiS that happen that isn't possible in real life (several shows and movies follow the same path, especially when dealing with drugs and alcohol.)

Tataboj
17th Aug 2015, 12:10
It all depends on what drug was used and how a person reacts to it. Same with alcohol.

Also, we're taking about a game where the maim protagonist can rewind time. It's fictional and, as such, isn't supposed to be compared completely against what can happen in real life. There are several things in LiS that happen that isn't possible in real life (several shows and movies follow the same path, especially when dealing with drugs and alcohol.)

Yeah, this game has really little amount of inconsistencies compared to the most of tv shows and movies but for some reason Xeva-q hates THIS game.

RaulRoque
18th Aug 2015, 05:44
Yeah, this game has really little amount of inconsistencies compared to the most of tv shows and movies but for some reason Xeva-q hates THIS game.

Hahaahaha :P

It clearly could be the same drug. With both Kate and Max. Who said it was stimulant? Both were sedated. Kate had sex sedated and Max is being equally sedated too. What's the matter with that, people?

In time, I don't think any Telltale game I played had that many of inconsistences, no? Well, waiting for the last episode to give the final word. Hope to see everyone there too :)

Xeva-q
18th Aug 2015, 08:28
Yeah, this game has really little amount of inconsistencies compared to the most of tv shows and movies but for some reason Xeva-q hates THIS game.

http://lparchive.org/I-Have-No-Mouth-and-I-Must-Scream/Update%201/img-2.gif

Tataboj
18th Aug 2015, 08:48
Hahaahaha :P

It clearly could be the same drug. With both Kate and Max. Who said it was stimulant? Both were sedated. Kate had sex sedated and Max is being equally sedated too. What's the matter with that, people?

In time, I don't think any Telltale game I played had that many inconsistencies, no?

That's because you haven't met Sir Mister Xeva-q The First in Telltale discussion. I, for example, don't search for inconsistencies and try to analyse one stupid photo, I am enjoying the game! :)

Xeva-q
18th Aug 2015, 10:51
Sir Mister Xeva-q The First
I like it. You should stick with this from now on.

Yeah, this game has really little amount of inconsistencies compared to the most of tv shows and movies
You call this a little?


It all depends on what drug was used and how a person reacts to it.
The question is: did Jefferson and Nathan had any need to give stimulation drug to Kate?

Sedative drug absolutely can not provoke this kind of reaction, especially in combination with alcohol.


Drugging Chloe might be Nathan's initiative, and Nathan could have used wrong type

So far this is the only reasonable explanation - that someone used wrong type of drug on Kate by mistake.

But it still can not explain Nathan testimony - why he was so sure that content of viral video would work in his favor?

Tataboj
18th Aug 2015, 12:35
I like it. You should stick with this from now on.

You call this a little?

60% of your inconsistencies are aspects of the game misunderstood by you or things that will be most likely explained later.
20% are things that characters didn't figure out (usually because they don't have YouTube where they can replay the passages of the game).
And 20% are actual inconsistencies.

Xeva-q
18th Aug 2015, 13:46
60% of your inconsistencies are aspects of the game misunderstood by you
Fell like sharing? :)

I can not remember not a single one inconsistency that was proven wrong in that topic of mine. So, please, go on.

And the funny thing is - in this topic i am actually trying to prove that there are no inconsistencies here. You, on the other hand, trying to prove that is indeed an inconsistency here. While stating that

I, for example, don't search for inconsistencies
:)

Tataboj
18th Aug 2015, 14:31
Fell like sharing? :)

I can not remember not a single one inconsistency that was proven wrong in that topic of mine. So, please, go on.

And the funny thing is - in this topic i am actually trying to prove that there are no inconsistencies here. You, on the other hand, trying to prove that is indeed an inconsistency here. While stating that

:)

What? I said Nathan could have used wrong type of a drug. That is searching for inconsistencies?

Xeva-q
18th Aug 2015, 14:48
What? I said Nathan could have used wrong type of a drug. That is searching for inconsistencies?

Then why Nathan stated that video contradicts Maxine's claims? If you have no reasonable explanation for this, it's still inconsistent.

Tataboj
18th Aug 2015, 15:01
Then why Nathan stated that video contradicts Maxine's claims? If you have no reasonable explanation for this, it's still inconsistent.

Bad explanation still isn't a searching for inconsistencies though.

Xeva-q
18th Aug 2015, 15:11
Bad explanation still isn't a searching for inconsistencies though.

Well, i have to admit - the truth is yours. My apologies.

But we still have no explanation. Except for one, that was suggested by me.

StrangerThanFiction
18th Aug 2015, 20:36
Then why Nathan stated that video contradicts Maxine's claims? If you have no reasonable explanation for this, it's still inconsistent.

Because Nathan is trying to protect himself.

"I said I WAS going to take her to the ER. She sobered up eventually."

"I saw blinding white light. I thought I was in the hospital." (This by no means in accurate word by word, but this is pretty much what Kate was saying).

We also have a photo of Kate looking "high and not enjoying herself at all", combined with a binder of her photos in The Dark Room, and she mentions that Nathan was with her.

He's going to say anything in order to make it look like he wasn't involved, but the video contradicts it (according to the Prinicpal if you tell on him), his own testimony contradicts it, and Kate's testimony contradicts it.

Also, Nathan has a huge motivaton to lie. Kate doesn't have any motive (we might know her completely, but Max does and she even writes in her diary and mentions how Kate hasn't been the same).

Hepatoxicity
20th Aug 2015, 08:28
In real life it does not makes any sense. Simply put:

Sedative + Sedative != Stimulant

Furthermore, if you chose to believe Kate, "one drop of red wine" it is not enough to have mix effect.

And so, if creators have any brains this explanation won't work.

But i am not sure about it.

This is medically and pharmacologically inaccurate. Are you incapable of critical and creative thinking? I've read every post of yours on this forum and each is riddled with logical fallacies, falsehoods, hypocritical opinions posing as facts, and sweeping generalizations without seemingly any research whatsoever.

There are MANY drugs and chemical compounds with side effect profiles that include paradoxical symptoms. Nicotine is a stimulant in small doses; in larger amounts it acts as a sedative and anxiolytic. Alcohol can wake you up, get you chatting with friends, and just as soon leave you unconscious if you drink too much. GHB (the drug EXPLICITLY SHOWN in this game to be the one Nathan bought from Frank and used to dose Kate) is an aphrodisiac and empathogenic intoxicant in lower concentrations and can induce sexual desire, giddiness, and often sociability; however, the reason GHB is so common as a date rape drug in the United States is because at the higher end of the dosage range, it is an exceedingly powerful amnesiac known for the long, coma-like sleep it produces. These effects become especially pronounced when combined with alcohol in ANY amount, large or small. This is a medical fact.

And let's not forget that different people simply respond differently to different drugs depending on body chemistry. Not only that, but Nathan purchased SEVERAL kinds of drugs from Frank and we don't know for sure which he used on Chloe. He could have easily combined the standard dose of GHB with ecstasy (Molly) or cocaine for all we know. It's not only possible that Chloe reacted differently to the meds than Kate, but highly probable, given that she was a daily user of cannabis at the time and drinks fairly regularly.

Also: you got the basic facts and initial situation behind it wrong too. Kate tells Max that her recollection only goes as far as "party - Nathan - car". Then she says she THINKS she remembers waking up in a white room (which she did) and MAYBE hearing a soothing voice (which she did - Jefferson's) she thought might belong to a doctor, but that she ISN'T 100% SURE. This is not lying. Kate was correct about the general details but not the specifics, which is a credit to her since she goes out of her way to remind Max that her memory of the events is very fuzzy.

Yet again you are ignoring, rearranging, and misinterpreting the events presented in this game to suit the conclusion you WANT to find. Not the other way around. Speculation makes sense but what you seem to do in every thread is willfully deny the facts, implications, and sometimes even the overarching themes of the game by using absurd, nonsensical logic to justify yourself.

Stop belittling people and closing your ears immediately when they correct your mistakes. Stop looking to poke holes that don't exist in a story you don't like. It's making you look crazy.

Xeva-q
20th Aug 2015, 15:49
Are you incapable of critical and creative thinking?
But of course i am incapable. Why you even bother to ask?

I've read every post of yours
You did right.

each is riddled with logical fallacies, falsehoods, hypocritical opinions posing as facts, and sweeping generalizations without seemingly any research whatsoever.
And what can you expect of someone like me?

Yet again you are ignoring, rearranging, and misinterpreting the events presented in this game to suit the conclusion you WANT to find.
yep.

Speculation makes sense but what you seem to do in every thread is willfully deny the facts, implications, and sometimes even the overarching themes of the game by using absurd, nonsensical logic to justify yourself.
What cat i do? I so desperately want to justify myself.:(

Stop belittling people and closing your ears immediately when they correct your mistakes. Stop looking to poke holes that don't exist in a story you don't like.
Of course i'll obey you, my Capitan.

It's making you look crazy.
Thanks for reading my every post yet again.

Tataboj
20th Aug 2015, 16:26
But of course i am incapable. Why you even bother to ask?

You did right.

And what can you expect of someone like me?

yep.

What cat i do? I so desperately want to justify myself.:(

Of course i'll obey you, my Capitan.

Thanks for reading my every post yet again.

And here comes... no actual argument. FINISH HIM!

Xeva-q
20th Aug 2015, 17:10
And here comes... no actual argument. FINISH HIM!

Why, of course there are not a single one argument. Hepatoxicity can talk like that with his girlfriend for all i care, but i will never answer with something besides mockery to someone who talks like that with me. Well, at least until i'll hear his apology.

After his rather pleasant characteristic of my humble person, i really do not care about his arguments, just like he is clearly did not care about mine.

Tataboj
20th Aug 2015, 17:57
Why, of course there are not a single one argument. Hepatoxicity can talk like that with his girlfriend for all i care, but i will never answer with something besides mockery to someone who talks like that with me. Well, at least until i'll hear his apology.

After his rather pleasant characteristic of my humble person, i really do not care about his arguments, just like he is clearly did not care about mine.

There has not been a single insult or even characteristic of your person. And being very sensitive on the internet isn't a good thing.

StrangerThanFiction
20th Aug 2015, 18:00
I found out what Kate was on!!! Nathan accidentally spiked her drink with a massive amount of Amity's peace serum.

Xeva-q
20th Aug 2015, 18:09
There has not been a single insult or even characteristic of your person. And being very sensitive on the internet isn't a good thing.

i do not even know what to say. Is that so?

Tataboj
26th Aug 2015, 13:55
Hahaahaha :P

In time, I don't think any Telltale game I played had that many of inconsistences, no? Well, waiting for the last episode to give the final word. Hope to see everyone there too :)

BTW, I have watched some episodes of Telltale's Walking Dead and I must say, I haven't seen so much major and obvious inconsistencies in a while.

Look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoBHe7tetH0
Some things are unfair or just minor but most of them are major plot inconsistencies. And that's just one episode.
And I got one, too: 1. If you go alone with the baby in the end, nine days later you approach a horde of zombies. How did Clementine get food? And water? For the baby?

Sorry for OT, I just needed to point that out.