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View Full Version : Open Letter to Psyonix - League Rankings and how to fix it



Da_Wolv
12th Aug 2015, 08:15
Dear Psyonix,

First of all, as much as I want to apologize for the communities behaviour in the infamous backlash thread regarding your League Ranking prize structure, you did kinda deserve it. Let it not be said that the only reason people lashed out was because we L O V E this game and hate to see it bury itself. There was only one real dissenting voice in the entire thread, with whom I could not disagree more, though that person made a good point: We haven’t really proposed anything better. While some people listed "known issues" in need to be fixed before this whole enterprise could go live and not draw hatred, there was almost no constructive proposals for another system that could maybe replace this.
This is why I created this new thread, to not have all that negativity serve as a prelude. Now, first let me recap:

WHY ARE CASH PRIZES* FOR LEAGUE RANKING BAD:
1) It attracts cheaters and already has! (duh..)
2) The way the League point system is set up, those who grind away all day every day will inevitably end up on top. No skill required (though skill does not hurt - at least)
3) Almost every 2nd game is a 3v4 due to some technical problems.
4) Players of all levels are mixed together, which makes it less a question of personal skill, but if you got capable teammates or not.
*I, personally, am fine with cash prizes for Ranked, as long as they do not exceed $100 per individual. Also, I would offer the money as a Steam Wallet coupon or SE-product code, so that possible cheaters have the money bound to their accounts, which could get banned, rendering the money useless.

WHY IS THIS BAD FOR THE COMPETITIVE SCENE:
1) ESL players were already salty when the cash prizes got lowered for ESL tournaments. It feels very disingenuous to now pour 10x the ESL money into League.
2) League play is not team focused. This is a 4v4 game. While in public play you need to be able to play with whomever you got (something I can accept as a ‘skill’ in most circumstances) it does not compare to the depth that this game can provide in real competitive matches.
3) ESL is regulated – Ranked is not: All of the stuff that was problematic in the beginning and just got ironed out by ESL rules, like roof camping and exploitation of bugs, can be verified and a team will get punished for doing so. Why wouldn’t you roof camp in League when you already won with 8min still on the clock? There’s no reason why people wouldn’t.
4) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:
People will not waste their time on ESL and competitive play, when that is time they could better invest playing ranked. It is already hard to find scrims during the week. Why would I bother trying to play private matches for 2hrs and ESL on Sunday for roughly 3-5hrs, if that translates to 6-8 ranked games I could have played to push myself higher for more rewards.
(This is by far my biggest issue with the entire system)

Now how do we fix this?
Players like malga. already posted their laundry list of things to tackle before the League System, as it stands now, can work with a prize pool like that.
Talking to other ESL players in the community, I think I have come up with a good idea, that makes ESL players happy, the ESL happy, gives money to more players that actually play for skill and not for pure hours and makes it easily accessible, even for players that just fire up the game client and never take a look in the forum:

Step one is the medium. I want to dare anyone to say that the ESL is not the safest and most fair possibility to foster competitive matches, so my medium is obviously the ESL, but to make it more accessible and not dependent on a time frame; we will utilize the recently kind-of revitalized ESL Ladder (http://play.eslgaming.com/nosgoth/global/nosgoth/open/nosgoth-open-4on4-tdm-ladder/rankings/)

The ladder was once full of teams, now only the lower tier ESL teams are signed up there, but still – not much is happening.
Now instead of pouring all that money into Solo Ranked, take the bulk of it, and put it into the ladder!
*** ALTERNATIVELY: ***
The ESL could open a Fall League with the same basic structure as the Summer League with these rewards.

Step two is advertisement. This is probably the easiest. Instead of having the friend referral and other big banners take up the screen in the home menu, make a nice big banner showcasing the ESL and the prizes for teams. Then provide a link right there in the client that the Steam Browser can access. Why not also put an ESL icon in one of the corners or dedicate a button to it. Maybe even an entire menu screen (more on that below).

Step three is documentation.
Provide links or in-client information texts on how to sign up, what the requirements are and how ESL is played.
*** I would personally like to volunteer if need be to help make this information available ***

Step four is fostering honor:
Like the League Ranking ladder, you could display the current ESL rankings in-client for everyone to see. Maybe a special ESL menu that hides under that ESL button I proposed above, with information about the rules, requirements, Cups, Leagues and all the Rankings easily accessible inside the game's client.


Now again, how much money you take away from League Ranked and how much stays is open for debate, but, I would like to propose that you give out $100 max each for the top 10, then have it fall to 5 bucks/each for 75-100th. To replace the prizes lost, just give out Runestones and Chests! People will play for ingame rewards just as much as they will for cash, but it will not attract cheaters from other games, that do not care about Nosgoth and are only here for the moneyz.

So this is my proposal. I doubt many of the ESL players will have much of a problem with a system like this, because I think that in addition of fixing the problems of the In-Game Ranked system it also fixes an issue with the Weekly Cup structure, that is – Cups are on a set date and time, whereas ESL Leagues run throughout multiple weeks and the teams just have to find ONE day and time for each match on which both teams can agree and play their match. It also leaves more time to play the matches, making it possible to have every game be a BO3, which is inherently more fair.
Also, this means that lower level teams that maybe just started playing competitively have a chance to fight against their peers, don’t get discouraged and get better, instead of being pitted against a veteran team for 3 weeks in a row in the Sunday Cups and get obliterated and ultimately discouraged from ever signing up again.

Feedback is of course always welcome!


PS1: Thanks to HexMe, Klaue, Shikei and my entire team for giving me some (if not most) of the ideas presented above.

PS2: @Psyonix; I know you are busy and whatnot, but silence is killing us! This is less of a dialogue between the developer and the fanbase but an echoing monologue. It is no surprise to me that people get more bitter and salty the less you reply to them.
We love this game and we want to see it succeed! Help us help you… P L E A S E

That is all – have a nice patch day.

iquaniqua
12th Aug 2015, 08:47
I agree, but i think point 4 under leagues could be fixed by making the game rank you by your skill/score in the solo series (if a team series gets added i'm fine with win/lose, since you pick out your team), maybe to prevent killstealing it should track your damage/deaths instead of your kdr

Da_Wolv
12th Aug 2015, 09:14
I agree, but i think point 4 under leagues could be fixed by making the game rank you by your skill/score in the solo series (if a team series gets added i'm fine with win/lose, since you pick out your team), maybe to prevent killstealing it should track your damage/deaths instead of your kdr
That doesn't help either. There are very helpful and skillful playstyles that are not rewarded a lot in terms of damage and in-game points (like Dominate Mind), at least not if the rest of your teammates are good enough to capitalize on it.
This is why win/loss makes sense as a metric, but the metric could include a scale - like for instance a 30:2 loss obviously loses you more points than a 30:29.

Saikocat
12th Aug 2015, 09:26
As I mentioned in another post elsewhere, we're going over the feedback in the thread there. We'll post a response in there this week, but we need time for everyone to have gone over the feedback and respond accordingly. Bear with us.

Vampmaster
12th Aug 2015, 09:33
I think if SE's expectation is that people will spend money on abilities and things because of how eager they are to win the cash prizes, then it should be compulsory for those players contribute towards the prize money before being eligible. Those who don't want to pay could still compete just to see their rank and get in-game stuff and the definitive packs could come with a lifetime pass or something. Or maybe if you've already spent X amount of money, you could get the pass too.

It's just to make sure that the money invested in the prizes comes back and gets put towards development, considering that the player base might be too small to cover the prize at the moment. I don't know that for certain, but that is one of the main concerns I've been seeing.

The other main concern I've been seeing is teamwork, but everyone seems to be forgetting that Team Leagues are planned too. Perhaps saving the large cash prizes for that instead of solo would be a more popular decision.

EDIT: Sorry, Cat. I started my post before yours was added.

iquaniqua
12th Aug 2015, 09:38
That doesn't help either. There are very helpful and skillful playstyles that are not rewarded a lot in terms of damage and in-game points (like Dominate Mind), at least not if the rest of your teammates are good enough to capitalize on it.
This is why win/loss makes sense as a metric, but the metric could include a scale - like for instance a 30:2 loss obviously loses you more points than a 30:29.

that would make sense, but it's still unfair if you get bad teammates, for instance, my friend who is worse than me and has about half the hours of nosgoth than me is placed higher because he had more luck with teammates than me


I think if SE's expectation is that people will spend money on abilities and things because of how eager they are to win the cash prizes, then it should be compulsory for those players contribute towards the prize money before being eligible.

you know that you can buy abilities with gold and even rant them, but when you will get to lvl 35 or so you will most likely have all the abilities you want to play with permanently purchased with gold

Vampmaster
12th Aug 2015, 09:59
you know that you can buy abilities with gold and even rant them, but when you will get to lvl 35 or so you will most likely have all the abilities you want to play with permanently purchased with gold

I know you can. It's what I did, but I expect SE is counting on players who want the cash not being that patient. There's no guarantee though, so that's why I was saying it might be worth charging a small amount to be eligible for the cash prizes to that they are contributing something to the prize money. I'm personally not that interested in the cash (I'm not skilled enough to have a chance), so I would opt out and would rather the money I have spent be invested in features and fixes than cash prizes.

FireWorks_
12th Aug 2015, 10:14
Actual leagues with divisions with matches once a week between team etc sounds like fun. Something that works pretty well if you look at ETF2L, the european Team Fortress 2 league (http://etf2l.org/). Even the most casual 2hours per week players can sign up and play in the lowest divisions. But I wonder where these players should come from for Nosgoth.


While I agree with you in the vaste majority of things, Id like to kill some illusions of your post:
-There will be cheaters. Always. You cant get rid of them the way we all like. The more players (and thats the goal after all), the more of them will come too. No way around it. You can step up the effort and quickly ban ultra obvious players, but the more sophisticated cheaters will always find their way. If they turn the level a bit down, it becomes extremely difficult to proove anything.
Its a fight that has to be fought none the less, but dont expect it to ever end.
Here is a good read about the topic. Spreading cheats to high tier professionals via Steam even on LAN *shocking* (http://csgo.99damage.de/de/interviews/23269-former-cheat-coder-says-it-all) :D

-Payment to steam wallet as deterrent. It does not work they way you plan.
The only winner here will be Valve. Cause the players can easily buy things with the wallet and sell it for real world cash via any other payment service. This is done very actively in every moment we speak here. They lose around 20% in the process to Valve and the other trader but 80% of free cash is still fine to them. It would be a pure waste of money.



On a different notes, as far as I got things here:
Psyonix are the wrong people to talk to. They code the core game in UE3 and develop the gameplay, balancing, maps etc.

SE as publisher is making the calls for budgeting and providing the background. And their own studio in Montreal (Square Enix Montreal) is coding and activly developing the league system. These are the guys that did the UI reworks, the Twitch ingame client and NosCam. Audhumbla is not a Psyonix person, but a designer at SE Montreal. The way that V_Zephonim was or is the QA lead for Nosgoth at SE Montreal.
Correct me if Im wrong please.

Da_Wolv
12th Aug 2015, 10:49
Actual leagues with divisions with matches once a week between team etc sounds like fun. Something that works pretty well if you look at ETF2L, the european Team Fortress 2 league (http://etf2l.org/). Even the most casual 2hours per week players can sign up and play in the lowest divisions. But I wonder where these players should come from for Nosgoth.
As I said, it already happened once:
http://play.eslgaming.com/nosgoth/global/nosgoth/open/league/eu-summer-2015/



While I agree with you in the vaste majority of things, Id like to kill some illusions of your post:
-There will be cheaters. Always. You cant get rid of them the way we all like. The more players (and thats the goal after all), the more of them will come too. No way around it. You can step up the effort and quickly ban ultra obvious players, but the more sophisticated cheaters will always find their way. If they turn the level a bit down, it becomes extremely difficult to proove anything.
Its a fight that has to be fought none the less, but dont expect it to ever end.
Here is a good read about the topic. Spreading cheats to high tier professionals via Steam even on LAN *shocking* (http://csgo.99damage.de/de/interviews/23269-former-cheat-coder-says-it-all) :D

You can easily protest and have Noscam files examined but thats not what I am referring to:
The ESL Wire system (http://www.esl.eu/eu/wire/anti-cheat/) is really good. Its the most reliable anti-cheat system on the planet, since its also very invasive and reads anything and everything going on on your machine. But it works!
Case in point: One guy was suspected of cheating in ESL and after the system got implemented, he got banned.



-Payment to steam wallet as deterrent. It does not work they way you plan.
The only winner here will be Valve. Cause the players can easily buy things with the wallet and sell it for real world cash via any other payment service. This is done very actively in every moment we speak here. They lose around 20% in the process to Valve and the other trader but 80% of free cash is still fine to them. It would be a pure waste of money.
Ok I give you that point. It was just an idea, not really fleshed out, sure, but its not really the focus of my topic.




On a different notes, as far as I got things here:
Psyonix are the wrong people to talk to. They code the core game in UE3 and develop the gameplay, balancing, maps etc.

SE as publisher is making the calls for budgeting and providing the background. And their own studio in Montreal (Square Enix Montreal) is coding and activly developing the league system. These are the guys that did the UI reworks, the Twitch ingame client and NosCam. Audhumbla is not a Psyonix person, but a designer at SE Montreal. The way that V_Zephonim was or is the QA lead for Nosgoth at SE Montreal.
Correct me if Im wrong please.
So? Psyonix can tell them to go here. This is an issue regarding Nosgoth, so I am posting it in the Nosgoth forums. Its not my job to chase around the right people to tackle this. Unless Squenix wants to hire me as a manager.

Guardian1uk
12th Aug 2015, 11:04
What I'm taking from your "open letter" is a complaint about the size of the prizes ESL offer, maybe you and the rest of the ESL teams should take that up with ESL directly.

Also why should the people who invest the time into nosgoth NOT reap the benefits from it? or are you saying their time isn't worth money as well?

Also not everyone has a "stable" time frame available ie able to play at a perticular time each sunday for example because everyones RL circumstances are different.

It also sounds like your worried about the "cash leagues" drawing players away from the ESL leagues, and your ignoring the fact that they are going to be doing team leagues, and if their willing to pony up $10000 monthly prize for the solo series leagues, you then have to ask yourself what kind of monthly prize pool are they liable to offer for for a team series of leagues? This would for the ESL teams be prizes ON TOP OF the ELS team prizes.

Cheaters are the bane of ANY game unfortunately regardless of whether there's a cash prize available or not, but yes they would be a concern which is why I suggested elsewhere that they talk to ESL etc and possibly require players in the solo leagues as well as team leagues to use the ESL wire program as the ESL wire is more likely to catch people using things they shouldn't like cheat engine and result is that player gets banned from nosgoth as using cheats etc during something like the solo series cash leagues is basically fraud.

End of the day prize pools like that are more likely to draw more players to the game, which is ultimately what the community want besides the devs etc.

As noted elsewhere in this thread people will find other ways of "cashing out" I mean hell it happens in ANY online game, wow, eve online etc etc, despite the fact they agree to be bound by a legal contract aka TOS/EULA which states they agree not to use cheats/hacks or engage in RMT, in the case of where they can PROVE people are using cheats etc maybe the EULA/TOS for the solo and team series leagues should have a clause(s) where you not only agree not to use cheats etc, but if found/caught using cheats etc then you agree to immediately repay any and all prizes awarded plus costs and interest on the amounts.

3v4 is happening partly due to bugs introduced with the last patch, and somewhere down the line their liable to increase and/or change the penalties to give players less incentive to "leave", currently it's hard to tell if a player "left" by choice or by a crash to desktop/menu which still happens at the moment.
Once the game is stable they can then more accurately track who's quit and who's crashed, and the ones who repeatedly "leave" a match they can then impliment something like a ban on them from competing in the solo/team series leagues when there's cash prizes available.
Agreed on the roof camping being a issue especialy when there's cash prizes available, first round human team gets ahead kill wise, second round decides to roof camp as vampires will be a issue, hopefully they will tie it into being able to report players in game during a match which I belive is something being looked into at the moment (the report player option) so roof campers could then be hit with a veriaty of penalties for doing so.

Currently due to the instability of the game and the aforementioned 3v4s people do roof camp because why should they be penalised for something beyond their control? ie team member leaves/crashes and doesn't come back? it's not like currently there's a cash prize available.

Louves
12th Aug 2015, 11:06
You can easily protest and have Noscam files examined but thats not what I am referring to:
The ESL Wire system (http://www.esl.eu/eu/wire/anti-cheat/) is really good. Its the most reliable anti-cheat system on the planet, since its also very invasive and reads anything and everything going on on your machine. But it works!
Case in point: One guy was suspected of cheating in ESL and after the system got implemented, he got banned.

As far as I know he got banned by FairFight. Wire got implemented after he played and his ESL account did not get banned. Only his Nosgoth account and therefore he created a new one to play again. Wire just scared him off.

Da_Wolv
12th Aug 2015, 11:15
What I'm taking from your "open letter" is a complaint about the size of the prizes ESL offer, maybe you and the rest of the ESL teams should take that up with ESL directly.
I dont know whos paying for what. So I am posting here.



Also why should the people who invest the time into nosgoth NOT reap the benefits from it? or are you saying their time isn't worth money as well?
This is the downfall of competitive games:
I play this game all day every day, therefor I deserve compensation.
We dont pay our top athletes for playing sports all week, the money is in the performance shown, not time spent.



Also not everyone has a "stable" time frame available ie able to play at a perticular time each sunday for example because everyones RL circumstances are different.
You sir, did not read my proposal. I said a Ladder or League System would be better for that circumstance, not the Cups, which can just keep running as they do now.




It also sounds like your worried about the "cash leagues" drawing players away from the ESL leagues, and your ignoring the fact that they are going to be doing team leagues, and if their willing to pony up $10000 monthly prize for the solo series leagues, you then have to ask yourself what kind of monthly prize pool are they liable to offer for for a team series of leagues? This would for the ESL teams be prizes ON TOP OF the ELS team prizes.
If and when this comes out, it would be indistinguishable from ESL, just without Wire - but I'm getting ahead of myself:
EDIT: Actually it would not be - it would be just as much of a grindfest as the Solo Series is, where skill only one measurement, at least under current rules. Besides, this feature is only in the concept phase by now, noone knows how it will look, so no point arguing about it. Besides that, having the ESL easily and readily integrated into the game client would render this enterprise moot, which saves work for Psyonix



Cheaters are the bane of ANY game unfortunately regardless of whether there's a cash prize available or not, but yes they would be a concern which is why I suggested elsewhere that they talk to ESL etc and possibly require players in the solo leagues as well as team leagues to use the ESL wire program as the ESL wire is more likely to catch people using things they shouldn't like cheat engine and result is that player gets banned from nosgoth as using cheats etc during something like the solo series cash leagues is basically fraud.
Wire is integrated with the ESL structure. Running anti-cheat does not work, nor can it be easily varified from Valve's or Psyonix' side whether or not people are using it.

Wire Anti-Cheat is automatically activated for specific encounters and, upon finishing the match, uploads a significant amount of data to the ESL for inspection. This is not something you can just have running in the background all the time to investigate all players and all their games.

iquaniqua
12th Aug 2015, 11:42
also, i'd change this "You can only climb up one tier at a time, but can be demoted multiple if need be"
so you're telling me if i **** up i get demoted hard, bu i still need to grind for days to get promoted multiple tiers

FireWorks_
12th Aug 2015, 12:24
You can easily protest and have Noscam files examined but thats not what I am referring to:
The ESL Wire system (http://www.esl.eu/eu/wire/anti-cheat/) is really good. Its the most reliable anti-cheat system on the planet, since its also very invasive and reads anything and everything going on on your machine. But it works!
Case in point: One guy was suspected of cheating in ESL and after the system got implemented, he got banned.


Let me say that I fully backup what this thread is about. Id just like to bring some things back into the frame.

What I wrote you up there still stands. You cant get them all, never. Wire is by no means perfect. There will be enough people getting past it and likely are already. "Best" does not mean "Perfect", this is just an illusion. Best is the marketing term for "sorry, we couldnt come up with something better".
Good it is there (and hopefully doesnt abuse its very invasive nature). Good there is also FairFight in place at the same time. But even together they are "just trying their best" and do not provide 100% protection.



About Psyonix though, the silence of Corey and Eric about Nosgoth is deafening.

Da_Wolv
12th Aug 2015, 12:39
Let me say that I fully backup what this thread is about. Id just like to bring some things back into the frame.

What I wrote you up there still stands. You cant get them all, never. Wire is by no means perfect. There will be enough people getting past it and likely are already. "Best" does not mean "Perfect", this is just an illusion. Best is the marketing term for "sorry, we couldnt come up with something better".
Good it is there (and hopefully doesnt abuse its very invasive nature). Good there is also FairFight in place at the same time. But even together they are "just trying their best" and do not provide 100% protection.

And noone is disputing that. What's your point though?
If we follow that logic then lets just all pack up our stuff and go be professional cyclists.. oh... right. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling)

Acknowledging the system isn't perfect is fine with me, but the ESL is far safer than the ingame anti-cheat will ever be, because the amount of intrusion that needs to be granted by the end user is not something you can impose on your general, every-day-Joe playerbase.

Whoopdidoohah
12th Aug 2015, 15:59
I participate in ESL every week (NA Scene, Poutine Extra Cheese team leader), and I've yet to encounter a case of someone who I thought would be cheating in ESL tournies, and there are players that have exceptionnal aiming and time reactions it's crazy. It's funny how, though, that some team(s) and players have completely stopped participating in ESL and playing Nosgoth in general, when Wire became mandatory. Case in point, wire is a very good tool to detect cheats, and the ESL is much safer and better environment to run a competition than the solo ranked matchmaking, putting noobs with pros, and barely any rule enforcement (like roof camping, cheap hacks that don't get detected, 4v3s, etc). Also, I don't get why, for a competitive game, they are rewarding time spent playing vs skill... Obviously I'm not talking about the Pubstar team owning up the ladder currently, as they are truly skilled players (like 80% + win rate), it's the guys with 250+ games played and barely 50% win that are eternal that MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Look, I'm salty over this, yes, I have a real life and job, wife, kids, I can't play Nosgoth as much and thus, even if I've got myself a 80% win rate I won't EVER be eternal due to the sheer amount of points it takes, even if I know that I'm the better player (Y'know, competitive = skill based =/ hours played). This solo ranked ladder isn't anything else than a gimmick of a system showing who plays more games, it has NOTHING to do with the skill of players.

About cheaters, they are very easy to spot in Nosgoth, I've seen a few last week due to the solo ranked hype, some no names with brand new accounts playing a better game than Talespin or Stoop Crime, quite obvious they're using cheap hacks if you ask me. Nosgoth isn't a game you can pick up and do better than vets in a few hours of gameplay. An overwatch system could be useful, with the real third person cam, so that people could review games and look for cheaters (wallhacks and triggerbots should be very easy to spot).

In the end, I'm astonished that SE thinks it's a good idea to inject money prizes in this solo ranked league, as it dosen't even comes close to the real skill that this game requires, which is playing as a team. It needs, like CS:GO, to promote the formation of TEAMS, and have ranked teams leagues which would work with SKILL in mind, not time spent of number of games played, it's just completely ridiculous. The quality of solo ranked games is down the drain bad, it's just downright terrible ATM.

FireWorks_
12th Aug 2015, 17:54
And noone is disputing that. What's your point though?
If we follow that logic then lets just all pack up our stuff and go be professional cyclists.. oh... right. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling)

Acknowledging the system isn't perfect is fine with me, but the ESL is far safer than the ingame anti-cheat will ever be, because the amount of intrusion that needs to be granted by the end user is not something you can impose on your general, every-day-Joe playerbase.
My point is that this is a moot point:


WHY ARE CASH PRIZES* FOR LEAGUE RANKING BAD:
1) It attracts cheaters and already has! (duh..)


Whatever anybody does to make the game more succesful, it will attract scum too. We all want more players to play with, to spend money in the game, to just enjoy the game. When they come, some of them will cheat. Prizes or not.
Its one of the things that cant be blamed on SE or Psyonix. I believe I am one of the biggest critics around here, but there are fairer points to criticize the Nosgoth project.


But to get back on the topic again: I agree with you, that a lowered entering threshold for competitive gaming cant be that wrong. Keep in mind though that a big comp game needs a huge pub population to be successful. Most people are just not interested in playing any comp.

senjuj
12th Aug 2015, 18:52
imho:
1. players should be hidden
2. no parties in solo ranks
3. improve mm and point systems (should be simple and clear)
4. protection from alltime farmers

when all ^ will work then advertise nosgoth league

riccetto80
13th Aug 2015, 08:30
is insane offer real money prize in a f2p game.

this means: "cheater please come to us"...

there is already esl, where the dev can give real prize, why do real money to ranked????

really who is who made this choice? fire him or relocate him and pus someone with experience in f2p game.

riccetto80
13th Aug 2015, 09:02
Whatever anybody does to make the game more succesful, it will attract scum too. We all want more players to play with, to spend money in the game, to just enjoy the game. When they come, some of them will cheat. Prizes or not..

This is simple false.

yes people will cheat anyway, and the more the user base the more cheaters, BUT!

if you add real money, most people will have a reason + to cheat.

There are country or zone in some country where 30 dollar are very good money, i already see legions of russian kids with cheat to get the 30/50 dollars, lol.

Also in romania minimum salary is 250 dollar, and a lot of people have this salary and a lot of family live with this money and kids... how many kids will find a 150 dollar prize, what made their father in more of 2 week of work... as very huge amout and reason to try cheats in the rank?

This will be cheaters who will play the game just for the money prize, so will be more cheaters of "normal" level, because of prizes.

give this money in steam credit didint help too, because with 20% commission you can convert it in real money... and because this kids from poor zountry/zones will like to have 30/50/150 dollar in steam to buy stuff they normally cannot afford...

was much better invest this money in ESL and/or in advertising the game

FireWorks_
13th Aug 2015, 20:51
Very good point, Reccetto.

Guess this is the moment to come back to the idea where every payment will be checked thoroughly. Ingame reports etc.

riccetto80
14th Aug 2015, 15:36
Very good point, Reccetto.

Guess this is the moment to come back to the idea where every payment will be checked thoroughly. Ingame reports etc.

is anyway a lot of work more, when in esl this is already done and even more, there are rules for stuff like roofcamp and so on, who are not cheat, but bugs exploit and not fair practice... in ranked will be impossible check this stuff really, will be a hell with much more cheater and much more people who don't cheat, but play "borderline" with resulting a much less enjoyable gameplay for everybody...

Da_Wolv
15th Aug 2015, 11:00
is anyway a lot of work more, when in esl this is already done

That is very true. Eventhough I touched upon this in the original post, I think it needs to be said somewhat clearer:
Why reinvent the wheel? Not only does the ESL already have the infrastructure in place to make competing smoother, it also has the manpower to police it!

HexMee
19th Aug 2015, 14:02
It also sounds like your worried about the "cash leagues" drawing players away from the ESL leagues, and your ignoring the fact that they are going to be doing team leagues, and if their willing to pony up $10000 monthly prize for the solo series leagues, you then have to ask yourself what kind of monthly prize pool are they liable to offer for for a team series of leagues? This would for the ESL teams be prizes ON TOP OF the ELS team prizes.


In a perfect world cash prices would be exclusive to team leagues, now this isn't so enticing for newbies who just tried nosgoth for their first 30 minutes and don't have a chance in hell to join or form a team in the nearest future to fight for the price. Granted this is a problem and counter-productive to what we want to achieve in form of advertising the game, hence why this is a perfect world scenario and should be taken with a grain of salt.

On to my main point:
The organized competitive team vs team community in nosgoth who have poured their life and soul into becoming as good as they can together as a team has the prospects of a few 100$ winnings each (900$ total if you win everything each month, split 4-ways) if they become the absolute best nr 1 team in nosgoth playing ESL gets shut down completely by the announcement that if you ditch your team and go solo you could make more money yourself than your entire team combined would get even if you become the best of the best.
This is an all red flags, flashing warning lights, sound the horns, fire the bazookas, defcon 9000, obvious sign that once team leagues do come out it's not going to have much, if any incentive to get yourself into it. This money isn't there to award good players, if it was, it would be 4v4 team exclusive, fact. The money is here as a cheap (or in my opinion, rather expensive) way of attracting lone wolves with a sizeable wallet that they might use to throw money at their screen with in the future.

It's been said in this thread that a small cash sum of 30-50$ can be a big deal for some people in some places or situations, which is why this amount of money would be sufficient enough to attract said lone wolves that you want playing your game, but for christ sake focus the bulk of the money prices on teams.

a 80/20 split would be perfect
1000$ for first place in team league(split 4 ways, 250$ each)
50$ for first place in solo league

This would achieve 2 things:
the 50$ solo price is an incentive to get into the game and learn how it works and become a good individual player, the bigger price for team league should be your goal as you play solo. You want to become good enough individually to join or form a team to fight for the big money.

Talespin
25th Aug 2015, 22:07
I think its safe to say Psyonix/Square aren't doing to do anything to prevent this from happening. Cheaters, roof camping, teams throwing and manipulating rankings, etc. apparently aren't valid concerns. The community lists tons of reasons why it's a bad idea, probably 95% of people in the thread agree, we even list alternatives, and what do we get? They're literally paying people to play their game through this "promotion" and no one wants it.

riccetto80
25th Aug 2015, 22:25
manipulating rankings

yeah, today i was talk with a friend of mine who play too nosgoth and him told me a thing i never think about till now but is true, you simply share your account with other 2-3-4-5 friend and you will be able to do a LOT of match, this rank dont count too much the skill, count much more how many match you play, so will be people who will share the account and play a load of match and reach eternal like this, lol.

Sasha_Vykos
26th Aug 2015, 11:38
I just would like to say that I completely agree with OP Wolv in every single point, so I don't have much more to add.

My only hope is that doing this (with all the cheaters that will probably start playing the game, lack of skill necessary to achieve the eternal league casue you just need to grind all day long, ESL that will loose attraction etc) more players start to play the game. We all would like to see a bigger player base and probably this is the main goal for devs too.. but I'm not sure that this prize for ranked can be the right way to achieve it.

kLauE187
26th Aug 2015, 12:27
They mentioned in the community-stream that ranked is no grindfest at all. How can you make a completely false statement like this? I guess one of the reasons they go with this horrible bad pointsystem is to let people play as much as possible, which means more people playing at any given time, because square-enix wants to see a spike in playerbase when ranked gets released. But they should realise that if they won't fix all their gamebreaking bugs like this fps micro-lags, most people won't stay around for long. But that's not my buisness ;)

Phantomchan
26th Aug 2015, 19:35
They mentioned in the community-stream that ranked is no grindfest at all. How can you make a completely false statement like this? I guess one of the reasons they go with this horrible bad pointsystem is to let people play as much as possible, which means more people playing at any given time, because square-enix wants to see a spike in playerbase when ranked gets released. But they should realise that if they won't fix all their gamebreaking bugs like this fps micro-lags, most people won't stay around for long. But that's not my buisness ;)
Micro-lags/warps are the most annoying thing ever in an online game. Even worse when it's not the fault of your own connection etc. :(

Arydious
26th Aug 2015, 19:40
Micro-lags/warps are the most annoying thing ever in an online game. Even worse when it's not the fault of your own connection etc. :(

Yeah it sucks to die from something out of your control

kLauE187
27th Aug 2015, 03:25
Micro-lags/warps are the most annoying thing ever in an online game. Even worse when it's not the fault of your own connection etc. :(


Yeah it sucks to die from something out of your control

Especially in a shooter, where every second counts. I can't number how many times my aim gets badly influenced by this micro-lags, it's not even worth playing in the current state. And i don't see any improvement at all, nosgoth is in beta since over a year and with every bugfix two new slip into the game.

Louves
28th Aug 2015, 15:25
As I mentioned in another post elsewhere, we're going over the feedback in the thread there. We'll post a response in there this week, but we need time for everyone to have gone over the feedback and respond accordingly. Bear with us.

16 days now and we are still waiting :(

FireWorks_
28th Aug 2015, 15:40
12th Aug 2015, 11:26

As I mentioned in another post elsewhere, we're going over the feedback in the thread there. We'll post a response in there this week, but we need time for everyone to have gone over the feedback and respond accordingly. Bear with us.

Been 2 weeks now. Any news?


Edit: Ha, Louves was a lot faster...