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View Full Version : 10+ mins of hiding in ranked...



Blazzphemy
3rd Aug 2015, 18:54
This is happening more and more now in ranked. Terrible players will get a minor lead and hide the game away to secure the most agitating, time-wasting, fun-killing, only win they will ever get win. There needs to be something added to force people into action. I don't wanna hear "it's a legit strategy" because it's not. If I wanted to play chase the enemy all game with no combat I'd just go play Evolve.

One very easy way to combat this is after "X" amount of time if they have done/taken no damage they will begin to bleed out. (This only pertains to the Vampires as they can hide on rooftops/inaccessible places to humans.) Either that or add more elevation in most maps for the humans to get to and I don't mean just the Scout with his Grappling Hook.
Especially since the Vampires are the ones who make the pace of the game.

Add this to the slew of other issues of ranked, lag, NO RANK SEPARATION, being forced into other regions, duos in SOLO QUEUE, terri-bad mmr system, super toxicity, etc, and call it a day.



#LosingFaithInNosgoth

KaininitePriestess
3rd Aug 2015, 19:31
Yeah, these people are irritating to the max. It's nothing that the devs have done wrong, though. It's just something that needs to be somehow punished after it's become an issue. I get really sick of people sitting around and either not doing anything during the entire battle, or sitting on rooftops and waiting for the rest of the team to whittle the other players down to nothing so that they can jump down into the fray and score some free kills without worrying about dying or doing any of the work. :/

News flash, people: IT DOESN'T WORK. YOU'RE GETTING YOUR TEAM KILLED. It's the same as playing 3v4!

JackEr4
4th Aug 2015, 00:24
One very easy way to combat this is after "X" amount of time if they have done/taken no damage they will begin to bleed out. (This only pertains to the Vampires as they can hide on rooftops/inaccessible places to humans.)



#LosingFaithInNosgoth
They should start losing health after some time if they're not going into combat, instead of not taking dmg.

riccetto80
5th Aug 2015, 00:26
it is because ranked calculate too much the dead, so if you dont dead you rank faster, lol.

i notice too lately a lot of people who apply this tactics, wait on roof, and engage only if and when there is some human almost dead... if the game is likely to loose, they dont even try to engage, just avoid to be killed...

xNarcissusx
5th Aug 2015, 02:32
it is because ranked calculate too much the dead, so if you dont dead you rank faster, lol.

i notice too lately a lot of people who apply this tactics, wait on roof, and engage only if and when there is some human almost dead... if the game is likely to loose, they dont even try to engage, just avoid to be killed...

No it doesn't. The devs have stated that all that is calculated is whether you win or lose, and what the MMR of each team adds up to. No personal stats from the match matter at all, and this is to prevent that exact thing you mention that people camp on the roofs to wait until someone is weak so you can go in for the kill.

Audhumbla
5th Aug 2015, 15:44
No it doesn't. The devs have stated that all that is calculated is whether you win or lose, and what the MMR of each team adds up to. No personal stats from the match matter at all, and this is to prevent that exact thing you mention that people camp on the roofs to wait until someone is weak so you can go in for the kill.

xNarcissusx is correct, the average mmr of the opposing team and the match result (win/loss/draw) are all that matters.

SirSleepALot
5th Aug 2015, 16:10
xNarcissusx is correct, the average mmr of the opposing team and the match result (win/loss/draw) are all that matters.

So on that note, if I lose a game and get positive X points, does it mean the other team's combined mmr was bigger than my team's mmr?

xNarcissusx
5th Aug 2015, 16:19
That seems to be the case. But also Audhumbla just posted on a different topic this:


There's also a bonus pool of points that slowly increases over time. So while in the basic calculations you'll always lose points for a loss, you might be gaining from the bonus pool. We'll be working on exposing where the points are coming from better in that end-of-game tab.

At the moment it's 1 bonus point added to the pool every 90 minutes. That'll decrease to 1 every 120 minutes next season. Basically play roughly 3 matches a day and you're getting the max benefit from it.

So it seems that if you played several matches in a day you will possibly gain more points for a loss rather than if this was your first match. Now this opens for questions like does this reset each day? Is there a limit to how many bonus points you can store/ give out for each match etc.

Guardian1uk
5th Aug 2015, 17:10
Actually I have used this tactic myself once in a while, this was ONLY after we had 2 leavers on the team, leaving me and one other person on my team as vampires, now 2 vamps vs 4 humans is definately GOING to be a loss, question becomes why should I be punished for the actions of 2 other people who left and didn't reconnect to a league match?

You can tell leavers in a league match as they dont bother reconnecting back, where as the ones who crash do reconnect back into the game.

FearGhoul
6th Aug 2015, 00:02
I actually had someone suggest this today. We won the first match by 12 or so kills and then they said we should just hide. Thankfully no one on the team listened and we all fought, even the one who suggested it. We ended up losing overall by a single point, but I'd rather have that than being an idiot and sitting out a match.

Guardian1uk, I can understand that. It's no fun when you're in a 2 vs. 4 situation. Then it becomes a question of hiding until you maybe get more people, or just sucking it in and doing your best to fight.

KaininitePriestess
6th Aug 2015, 07:44
It's slightly OT, but just because someone doesn't reconnect doesn't mean they willingly quit. Part of the bug we've been having that causes the crashes has also been causing reconnects to fail sometimes. I don't know why it happens, but it does, just not as often, at least for me.

Audhumbla
6th Aug 2015, 15:54
That seems to be the case. But also Audhumbla just posted on a different topic this:



So it seems that if you played several matches in a day you will possibly gain more points for a loss rather than if this was your first match. Now this opens for questions like does this reset each day? Is there a limit to how many bonus points you can store/ give out for each match etc.

Your first match will probably earn more and then you'll deplete the pool of points that are sitting there and go back to overall losing points.

You're still losing from your base LP (league points) when you lose, you just happen to be gaining more BP (bonus points) so the net amount is a gain.

We'll be updating the end game league tab to show this clearly.

GenocidePete
10th Aug 2015, 04:31
Yep, it was obvious from day one that this would be an issue if wins ever became of consequence. I still think the best way to ensure that combat continues to flow properly is to implement a score threshold, aggregated between both teams, that needs to be reached for the vampires to be able to achieve a match victory. In other words, if the total scores between both teams in the second round don't add up to 25, the vampires automatically lose. This will guarantee a certain amount of gameplay in the second round, and it's far more difficult to work around than the "bleed out after inactivity" suggestion.

KaininitePriestess
11th Aug 2015, 19:21
The problem with that suggestion is that there are times when both teams are just AWESOME as Humans but not so great as Vampires. Apparently it's a big deal in the higher ranks, especially. So only making it so that the Vampires have to have that high threshold means that you'll be unfairly hindering one team over the other. In this instance, expecting the Vampires to be able to win by such a high margin that you dictate their win or loss on the combined points isn't taking into consideration that there are some really good Human teams, or the teams may be balanced enough that they keep going in and wiping each other out almost equally but at a slower rate, so that at the end of the match, even if both teams were engaging, you're punishing them for the natural flow of the game not meeting an arbitrary criteria.

GenocidePete
12th Aug 2015, 02:09
The problem with that suggestion is that there are times when both teams are just AWESOME as Humans but not so great as Vampires. Apparently it's a big deal in the higher ranks, especially. So only making it so that the Vampires have to have that high threshold means that you'll be unfairly hindering one team over the other. In this instance, expecting the Vampires to be able to win by such a high margin that you dictate their win or loss on the combined points isn't taking into consideration that there are some really good Human teams, or the teams may be balanced enough that they keep going in and wiping each other out almost equally but at a slower rate, so that at the end of the match, even if both teams were engaging, you're punishing them for the natural flow of the game not meeting an arbitrary criteria.
You seem confused about what I said. Vampires wouldn't need to win by "such a high margin" or ANY margin: they would automatically lose only if the scores of both teams in the second round added up to less than 25. 13 points for humans + 12 points for vampires = 25 total. I don't see how this is a difficult bar to reach. And, if it isn't obvious enough, the threshold would be irrelevant in games that end by score rather than time.

KaininitePriestess
12th Aug 2015, 19:59
But if you only make it an automatic loss for the team that plays Vampire the second round, that would still be giving them an unfair disadvantage.

GenocidePete
13th Aug 2015, 02:44
But if you only make it an automatic loss for the team that plays Vampire the second round, that would still be giving them an unfair disadvantage.
Usually when one is trying to make a point, it helps to formulate arguments. I see no argument here, only a proposition.

The issue is that because vampires have the ability to avoid combat (and humans don't), vampires have an advantage in the second round, as they can choose not to engage once their team has taken the lead in the match. Vampires have complete control over how much combat takes place, thus the onus should be on them to ensure that a certain number of deaths occur in the second round to mitigate their advantage.

KaininitePriestess
13th Aug 2015, 04:44
So you're still saying that giving the second team a requirement that the first team doesn't have to abide by to make a win is totally a fair proposition? I don't see how you can't see what my argument is.

GenocidePete
13th Aug 2015, 05:49
So you're still saying that giving the second team a requirement that the first team doesn't have to abide by to make a win is totally a fair proposition? I don't see how you can't see what my argument is.
lol, YOU HAVE MADE NO ARGUMENT. These are PROPOSITIONS. "It isn't fair to the second-round vampires to have a score threshold" is a PROPOSITION. You have provided NO reasoning behind your statement.

Harmaatukka
13th Aug 2015, 14:18
The solution for this problem is actually pretty simple. If a round ends with the score undecided, all the remaining points will go to the human team.

CptUncino
13th Aug 2015, 15:35
Esl rules should work well but 10 mins rounds sometimes are not enough to reach 30 kills (and not for matter of roofcamping and stuff). Maybe put in esl rules with some adjustments and rise the round time limit to 15 minutes or something... Atm there is nothing different from Pub to Ranked, just more rage involved :D

GenocidePete
13th Aug 2015, 18:40
The solution for this problem is actually pretty simple. If a round ends with the score undecided, all the remaining points will go to the human team.
The trouble with that is that it's very possible for the timer to run out even if the vampires are playing as intended.

Harmaatukka
13th Aug 2015, 20:28
Well the solution for the timer is even more simple, increase it, even ESL rounds don't usually last more than 15 mins, or if you want to keep the games shorter, decrease the amount of points to 25 or 20.

KaininitePriestess
15th Aug 2015, 03:30
I'm sorry, the fact that giving the Human side an advantage over the Vampire team is an argument against this. It shouldn't need an explanation. You're giving one team an advantage over the other team, therefore favoring one side in every match at random. This will cause a huge uproar if it were implemented.

RainRaven
15th Aug 2015, 04:17
The problem is it's not just the Vampires that do this though. Sure, they're a bit more successful at it due to their climbing abilities, but Humans are just as guilty at it. Just a couple days ago had a teammate go and hide in all the little corner dead-end buildings under the excuse that he was playing a Scout and needed to set up. Except he wasn't shooting until we'd already taken out most of the Vampires, died in the process and he got some easy shots as the Vampires fed. So why punish only the Vampires? That's just unfair and unbalanced.

Not to mention the game flow problems. Sometimes I'll extricate myself from combat as a Vampire and I'll only have approximately 50 HP left. So what's a Vampire to do, throw themself back into the thick of battle and go down in a blaze of glory? Of course not! That only wracks up kills for the other team. So I go hide for a moment, just long enough for the Regen to give me a bit of an HP boost and for my abilities to recharge. Yeah, I'll use the long distance abilities and swoop in for a body, but after that I'm happy to go claw some humans in the face again. So how do you intend to distinguish the cowards from the people making a tactical retreat? For that matter if you were to punish humans they'd be forced to break good strategy, seeking out Vampires that don't want to come to them. ...Actually, if you punish the Vampires for not doing or receiving damage, wouldn't you then have a worse problem of humans that try to hide the Vampires to death instead?

Another thing. Why in Nosgoth were you just ignoring the point KaininitePriestess made? They made a valid point, they just didn't phrase it confrontationally. So instead of thinking about what they were saying and meeting that challenge head on, you literally ignored the problem by arguing semantics instead. That's not how intelligent conversation works, good sir/madam.