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Saikocat
3rd Aug 2015, 10:09
You'll hopefully have seen this announcement already, but wanted to make sure it's shared here too.


Next week brings with it one of the landmark gaming events of the year, Gamescom. Gamers and press from all across the world travel to hopefully-sunny Cologne (Germany) to check out upcoming games, as well as announcements, new trailers and more. We're very happy to announce that we will be doing an official live Twitch stream straight from the show!

http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/583/blog/gamescomv2.jpg

On Wednesday August 5th, I (Cat "Saikocat" Karskens, Square Enix Community Manager for Nosgoth) will be joining the official Twitch channel's (http://www.twitch.tv/twitch) Gamescom coverage to share a very exciting Nosgoth announcement that'll be of particular interest to our competitive players. We can't wait to share this news with everyone, as well as showing off Nosgoth to a whole new audience, and doing some Definitive Pack giveaways to boot!


Join us on the official Twitch channel (http://www.twitch.tv/twitch) on Wednesday, August 5th, from 2PM CET / 1PM BST (local timings (http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/event?lid=14,12&h=14&sts=23978820&sln=13-13.5&a=show&euid=d002e17d-1937-74c4-252e-28c3d84039aa)). We'll be hosting it on the Nosgoth Twitch channel (http://www.twitch.tv/nosgoth) - so join the chat!

Toadzillasenpai
5th Aug 2015, 12:32
R.I.P ESL and R.I.P E-sport Teamgameplay.... WoW... i can´t find any words atm....

Please just imploy more programmers and fix finally those bugs.... we don´t need a 10.000 cashpool !!!

CountEyokir
5th Aug 2015, 12:34
Cash prizes on a regular basis? Where you get the money for this concerns me and to be perfectly honest, while I am sure a lot of other people would love the chance for it, I would much much muchhh rather that money he spent on enhancing Square Enix's venture into the Legacy of Kain universe. Because this is coming off to me almost as a bribe....

FireWorks_
5th Aug 2015, 12:35
So your plan is to toss money at people grinding your game all day long?

R.I.P. ESL :(


For the tournament wins you at least needed skill, now its becoming a contest for unemployed?

Shikei001
5th Aug 2015, 12:37
Stream News:
Nosgoth league starts at 1. October and every month 10k Dollar prizepool^^

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/v/9768676?t=3h5m3s

CountEyokir
5th Aug 2015, 12:40
Stream News:
Nosgoth league starts at 1. October and every month 10k Dollar prizepool^^

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/v/9768676?t=3h5m3s

We saw and ....I'm still baffled and kinda mystified by the priorities the devs have

Screwby-Dew
5th Aug 2015, 12:41
Nosgoth is a team-based game.
In ESL you get runestones for playing with a team... In rank you get cash for playing solo.
ESL is regulated by admins and anti-cheat etc... In rank there is what ? FairFight ?
http://i.imgur.com/VJNTAzy.jpg?1

Straight-up disappointed.

kLauE187
5th Aug 2015, 12:41
if they dont change the pointsystem this will just end in a huge grindfest and whoever nolifes the most wins the money for #1 etc. also they lowered esl pricemoney and throw away 10k for top100 every month?

bluefeverjames
5th Aug 2015, 12:41
yeah RIP ESL. You need to at least rise the prize pool for ESL above what it was before and half the money from leagues and put it in to ESL otherwise this game wont stay a competitive game it will fall very fast as everyone will just spam leagues until they get money instead of working as a team and winning ESL . Again Nosgoth a poor decision need to think better about what you do because you have messed us around before and I don't think you have many more lives remaining.

FireWorks_
5th Aug 2015, 12:41
Cut the prize in half and employ 2 programmers actually working for the game.


Also the prize pool:
11-30th get 100
31-50th get 150

Looks wrong

Da_Wolv
5th Aug 2015, 12:49
Worst Idea so far, good job guys. I didn't think it could get any worse!

Take the money from the team-based and regulated tournaments and put them into solo luck queue!
If anything, this will see a huge surge in Hacks and Cheats being produced and sold on the dark net.

AndyYoloSwaG
5th Aug 2015, 12:50
All that prizes for solo players.... rly nice.... And what about us? ESL players? For real. I have no words. Real nonsense.

R.I.P ESL R.I.P Teamplay , R.I.P Competition

FireWorks_
5th Aug 2015, 12:54
"To be fair", I guess your team of 4 will be able to stomp the league all day long. Cant wait to see the matchmaking discussions for that^^

Sorry but I think humour is the only way to take this.

ZittoN_
5th Aug 2015, 12:56
R.I.P Nosgoth. Throwing money on players instead of using it to actually fix the game.. A Working game is damn much better than $1000.

And I do agree with this ESL thing. Give that money in ESL and give the runes for solo.

WWidow
5th Aug 2015, 12:59
In ESL NA and EU can't play against each other but in ranked they can? The time when you can play ranked favours NA players who can play ranked all day, while the EU players can only play in the evening and at night...

I think most of the money will go to NA players

WWidow
5th Aug 2015, 13:01
Also the prize pool:
11-30th get 100
31-50th get 150

Looks wrong


Just wait one or two month and there will be a "hotfix" for this graphic :D

malgaa
5th Aug 2015, 13:11
10,000$/month wow. If it worked I guess we'd see more teams in ESL and eventually better ESL prizes but it's a risky movement, the ranked system would need to work flawlesly as well as the game itself. Like, for instance, it's been a week or more since the freeze bug which affects every single player and there's no fix yet, it makes me doubt the game will be ready for such a big situation, so it might end up in a big waste of money but hey, it's not my money so...

Still, I think increasing ESL prizes (reverting them to the previous amounts) while keeping (lower) prizes for rankeds would be better.

EDIT: BTW, fix the forums already please, there are so many things wrong that make them look like forums from a clunky free-hosted community.

bluefeverjames
5th Aug 2015, 13:11
$10,000 x 12 months = $120,000 that is plenty to even host a Yearly LAN Event and Keep some money. that will boost Player Base and show the game is Competitive. This will allow the game to have so much more hype and for ESL teams to fight Each other without the disadvantage of Ping or Lag. Meaning EU and NA teams can play each other with out a advantage or disadvantage. I feel this would be a very very good idea and people will also agree. It will also Spark Sponsors to pick up professional teams and that will increase the game Player Base as well. and everything will be good for everyone and you can keep the League system but change the money to Runestones which is free for you guys and will still pull new players into the game. Please spend time reading this and if anyone else thinks this is a good idea chip in with some other ideas that could be useful.
James

Ysanoire
5th Aug 2015, 13:16
Heh, I didn't think people would so unanimously complain about getting more prizes, but they are right.

I thought in-game prizes for in-game leagues were just fine. Echo what everybody else has said.

HexMee
5th Aug 2015, 13:23
So you flushed the whole concept of a teamwork based game down the toilet and gave people an incentive to be angry at each other? You're supposed to fight against harassment and flaming, not promote it!
Why are you forcing people to play alone in a team based game!? WHY!?

Where does this money come from? Why not put it into ESL where you already have a regulated competitive environment with proper anti-cheat and proper matches and not the cesspit of leavers and flamers that you call league ranked?
And while you're at it why not promote ESL in the in-game client? 99% of people playing your game doesn't even know ESL exists and why should they, no one has ever freaking told them!

How do you plan to give out the cash winnings to people?

How can you even think to put this much money into the game at this stage? Those lag spikes and screen freezes are a pain in the ass right now, but they don't really matter all that much because you're just playing the game for the hell of it. When this atrocious idea of yours gets implemented those screen freezes will end up costing you actual money as a player if you lose because of it.

I would get down on my knees and pray to all the collective gods and hope they shine a ray of light upon me and give me the sweet blessings of the words "It's a prank" over this whole situation.

I don't even. Actually I don't think I will ever even again.

Vampmaster
5th Aug 2015, 13:27
The main downside of the cash prizes I can see are that it will make the tantrums worse when people lose because people believe their team owes them the money. Whether it's a good investment is hard to say. It certainly feels like Nosgoth could use more programmers, but I know that doesn't always improve development time. If the chance for prize money gets more people playing, it might be worth it, but I'm not an experienced financial director like most forum members here appear to be.

The money won't effect how often I play, because I'm nowhere near skilled enough to win any. I might try to win the skins, but it takes up a lot of time, so I'd hope they get put on a rotation or something where it's a different skin each season and loops back around every so often to give people a second chance to get it.

Da_Wolv
5th Aug 2015, 13:28
^ What HexMe said.!!!!

Ysanoire
5th Aug 2015, 13:42
So you flushed the whole concept of a teamwork based game down the toilet and gave people an incentive to be angry at each other? You're supposed to fight against harassment and flaming, not promote it!


Yyeah, the salt level in ranked is going to exceed Dead Sea level.

Psyonix_Ryan
5th Aug 2015, 13:57
The main downside of the cash prizes I can see are that it will make the tantrums worse when people lose because people believe their team owes them the money. Whether it's a good investment is hard to say. It certainly feels like Nosgoth could use more programmers, but I know that doesn't always improve development time. If the chance for prize money gets more people playing, it might be worth it, but I'm not an experienced financial director like most forum members here appear to be.

The money won't effect how often I play, because I'm nowhere near skilled enough to win any. I might try to win the skins, but it takes up a lot of time, so I'd hope they get put on a rotation or something where it's a different skin each season and loops back around every so often to give people a second chance to get it.

The money for ESL and Leagues is separate from human resources budget and it would not necessarily impact our turnaround on bugs. As we add features to Nosgoth, it has a potential to cause new bugs to appear, as it would with any other game. Being that we are moving closer toward release and the launch of the Ranked ladder, focus has shifted more toward fixing bugs that the community reports.

Currently we only have a solo Ranked ladder in Leagues, so rewarding solo players for their dedication is where things stand. On its face, some of you have been vocal that rewarding the top players in a solo ladder de-emphasizes team play. However, to be successful in Nosgoth, players still need to work together to do well. Those that do well enough to rank in the Eternal tier are not only able to display mastery of their characters but exhibit the necessary teamwork characteristics to succeed.

Da_Wolv
5th Aug 2015, 14:00
Those that do well enough to rank in the Eternal tier are not only able to display mastery of their characters but exhibit the necessary teamwork characteristics to succeed.

No, they got lucky and got other 3 players in their team that aren't complete idiots.
Every ranked match theres that 1 guy that does 6k dmg in both rounds and dies 11 times.

There is no teamplay in Solo Ranked, at least not without the 1 teammate you are allowed to bring.
Instead, the actual teams that try to work on their synergy and practice, make strategies and compete get shafted.

Theres no salvaging this mess.

kLauE187
5th Aug 2015, 14:01
The money for ESL and Leagues is separate from human resources budget and it would not necessarily impact our turnaround on bugs. As we add features to Nosgoth, it has a potential to cause new bugs to appear, as it would with any other game. Being that we are moving closer toward release and the launch of the Ranked ladder, focus has shifted more toward fixing bugs that the community reports.

Currently we only have a solo Ranked ladder in Leagues, so rewarding solo players for their dedication is where things stand. On its face, some of you have been vocal that rewarding the top players in a solo ladder de-emphasizes team play. However, to be successful in Nosgoth, players still need to work together to do well. Those that do well enough to rank in the Eternal tier are not only able to display mastery of their characters but exhibit the necessary teamwork characteristics to succeed.

but shouldnt it be a reward for players with a high winrate and not for people who just play 24/7 since you even win points by loosing? With the current pointsystem it favours grind>skill...

Screwby-Dew
5th Aug 2015, 14:06
Currently we only have a solo Ranked ladder in Leagues, so rewarding solo players for their dedication is where things stand. On its face, some of you have been vocal that rewarding the top players in a solo ladder de-emphasizes team play. However, to be successful in Nosgoth, players still need to work together to do well. Those that do well enough to rank in the Eternal tier are not only able to display mastery of their characters but exhibit the necessary teamwork characteristics to succeed.

So people that dedicated their time in ESL (for some players since 12 november 2014) got what ?
I don't want to be an *** right now, but I'm really pissed by this decision, it doesn't make any sense.


but shouldnt it be a reward for players with a high winrate and not for people who just play 24/7 since you even win points by loosing? With the current pointsystem it favours grind>skill...
^ This.

WWidow
5th Aug 2015, 14:07
@Vampmaster: You only need to play a lot of ranked games. Do this with a mate and leave all lobbies with skilled opponents.

I'm sure there will be some more players now, because they all want to earn some of this money while playin a game, but I don't think this will increase the quality of the matches as long as 3h players are matched up with >300h players in a "ranked league" match. And I don't think this will increase the number of ESL teams. Why should we do scrims? Or Think about new tactics or anything else, if we just could grind us up to eternal to get some money....


76th- 100th -> 30$

In comparison to ESL weekly tournament: 1st place 150$ for 4 players -> 37,5 $ per player



EDIT: After this hopeful announcement last week

to share a very exciting Nosgoth announcement that'll be of particular interest to our competitive players.
I really hoped for an announcement about the first Nosgoth LAN or something nice like this, but this was more than disappointing.

Vampmaster
5th Aug 2015, 14:07
The money for ESL and Leagues is separate from human resources budget and it would not necessarily impact our turnaround on bugs. As we add features to Nosgoth, it has a potential to cause new bugs to appear, as it would with any other game. Being that we are moving closer toward release and the launch of the Ranked ladder, focus has shifted more toward fixing bugs that the community reports.

Currently we only have a solo Ranked ladder in Leagues, so rewarding solo players for their dedication is where things stand. On its face, some of you have been vocal that rewarding the top players in a solo ladder de-emphasizes team play. However, to be successful in Nosgoth, players still need to work together to do well. Those that do well enough to rank in the Eternal tier are not only able to display mastery of their characters but exhibit the necessary teamwork characteristics to succeed.

Like I was saying, I'm a games programmer myself, so I know there are plenty situations where adding more staff doesn't help. I had no idea about how Nosgoth's/Psyonix's/SE's budget works, so I hope I didn't sound like I was claiming that, but others had already brought up the subject, so I was just adding my perspective.

FireWorks_
5th Aug 2015, 14:25
Currently we only have a solo Ranked ladder in Leagues, so rewarding solo players for their dedication is where things stand. On its face, some of you have been vocal that rewarding the top players in a solo ladder de-emphasizes team play. However, to be successful in Nosgoth, players still need to work together to do well. Those that do well enough to rank in the Eternal tier are not only able to display mastery of their characters but exhibit the necessary teamwork characteristics to succeed.

You have a duo ranked ladder at the moment. Where teams can feast on solo players. Last time I checked 2 days ago, the 2 leading guys both had 67 out 70 matches won. Great! They happen to be also top ESL players of the same team.

Awesome how they as a team can farm all (US) day long on solo players.
Ok Ryan, it was before your time. Let me tell you Nosgoth took A LOT of heat for its at first non-existant and later very bad matchmaking. I dont know why you try to enforce this even further.


About the money, ok the money is in a different budget. Does that mean it has to be in there and wouldnt be placed better somewhere else?

Quickly tossing more programmers at a project extends its time, most people know that. But hiring them and adding them for the long run is a different matter.

xNarcissusx
5th Aug 2015, 14:31
Soo make a new account, to make sure your MMR is as low as it can be. Buy the definitive pack to get all the classes. Play only with the worst of the worst on both teams, be the one player that actually knows how to avoid attacks. And well repeat xD

bluefeverjames
5th Aug 2015, 14:50
also what is stopping players creating more accounts since its a free to play game and just ranking them up to the top 100 which is not too hard to higher players and just farming the money you are putting out there. Need to think what to do soon!!!!!

WWidow
5th Aug 2015, 15:00
also what is stopping players creating more accounts since its a free to play game and just ranking them up to the top 100 which is not too hard to higher players and just farming the money you are putting out there. Need to think what to do soon!!!!!

I totally agree!

Today is a good day for all the cheat-tool-programmer, since there is so much money to win every month...I should start with that :D

Toadzillasenpai
5th Aug 2015, 15:05
cheaterfest incoming

Da_Wolv
5th Aug 2015, 15:13
also what is stopping players creating more accounts since its a free to play game and just ranking them up to the top 100 which is not too hard to higher players and just farming the money you are putting out there. Need to think what to do soon!!!!!

I don't know if that'll be that much of an issue.
I would be more concerned about how lucrative of a business the professional hackers will get from this!

Thats why ESL is a much safer place to invest in: It is regulated.

_________________________
On another note. You said you are trying to reward "dedicated" players. That is exactly what is bugging us. The teams who have been trying to compete at ESL level and, like my team and some other, just falling short of earning money by 1 spot in the Cup rankings. But now the players who just grind away at Solo Queue ranked (and maybe aren't completely imcompetant) are going to be rewarded more than us ESL players.

I am not in ESL for the money.
We got to 2nd place ONCE (before it had cash prices)
and we got 25 bucks/each once for 3rd place.
We have come in 4th and just short of Semis many times, if not almost all times.

I won't stand here and tell you I will stop playing because of decisions like this. Its more likely you drive me away if the bugs keep cropping up like this. But everytime stuff like this comes up it makes me a little sad, how my team's accomplishments are just barely not good enough to earn some goodies on the side, while stuff like Solo Ranked is being promoted and rewarded much greater.

And I'm not saying take out all the money.
Why not give the 1st-10th like 50 bucks. Cool. Top it off with some Runestones and Chests and stuff.
But dont stand there and claim this game's focus is on competitive play while your actions state the opposite.

GenFeelGood
5th Aug 2015, 15:21
As a solo player, I am intrigued by this turn of events; but I am also somewhat nervous about how this will increase the hostility among players now that there is a cash incentive. I do like the look of the alchemist and will certainly be shooting to earn her; but beyond that, my work and school only gives me so much time to play in a given week.

Will ranked be open all day during Season 1?

WWidow
5th Aug 2015, 15:25
I am not in ESL for the money.

Same here, but we hoped there will be a few more teams in future (not new teams of 'old' players) to make it a little bit more interessting, but why should a team start to play ESL now? Looking for scrims, thinking about positionings, tactics/engages or looking replays costs much more time than just playin solo ranked and requeuing till you got a nice lobby.

A few weeks ago you "improved" the ESL prize pool to get more teams playin and now this?!

J_Walker
5th Aug 2015, 15:25
Is this a joke?!
I can't believe this...R.I.P ESL ,R.I.P. team based game,R.I.P. fairplay.
So you just trow your money in a non-working ranked system?It's crazy....
So now Nosgoth is a pure Matchmaking [luck]-system to win?
This isn't fair for the players who supported you since the beginning.
It's an insult to our community.To the Legacy of kain series fans.
You should have focused on bug fixes and matchmaking system time ago.Why You didn't invest those money for that?
With that announcement ,do you even expect our community will play CTB or FlashPoint or Unranked?
I don't have any words to describe my disappoint.
Change prizes in something else at least or this is the end.

Louves
5th Aug 2015, 15:33
Before the stream started I already anticipated a disapointment but this is beyond ridiculous. I wonder if the people who are responsible for this kind of decisions even think of the consequences. Square Enix obviously does not know it's players - or should I say customers - at all. You make one bad decission after another. This announcement shows it more than ever before.

Instead of working on things we want to see in the game because it would make it much more enjoyable you are working on things we never asked for. This is not a reward for "dedicated" players. It's a slap in the face.

malgaa
5th Aug 2015, 15:40
My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

- In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

- Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

- Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

- Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

- Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

- Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.

- System to check if the vampire team is permanently camping in roofs: (is this even possible?) like Talespin said, a team could win their human round and then not engage at all in their vampire round, just wait until the round ends.

EDIT: Added more items to the list.

xNarcissusx
5th Aug 2015, 15:52
also what is stopping players creating more accounts since its a free to play game and just ranking them up to the top 100 which is not too hard to higher players and just farming the money you are putting out there. Need to think what to do soon!!!!!

Let's be realistic here, ranking up to top 100 and maintaining it is not going to be something you can do with 4-5 accounts, because there are so many other players that will try and squeeze into the top 100. You would have to continuously play on all the accounts, which in the end will not be worth it. And for what to gain maybe 500$ from a whole month? No thanks, I make that in 5 days at work.

Does 1000$ sound a lot, for just playing a game, yes. But if I have to put out 8h+ a day for 20-30 days then it's not that worth it. Yes if you play this much already it is going to just an extra cash flow, but getting those multiple accounts up there aren't going to be as simple as play 1h each day.

As for the prize money compared to the ESL, well you have to understand that this money could come directly from (lets say square enix) Square Enix, to promote the League. Psyonix pitched the idea for a monthly league with prize money,integrated into the game itself, and they said "Sounds like an awesome idea here have 10.000$ as prize money each month". As for the ESL it could be that they couldn't find a sponsor willing to cash out on more each week (or how often those ESL cups are), maybe later there is going to be a team ladder league with 4 people, and what do you think they want to promote the ESL or their own league that they spent time and money on developing?

Yes, you all prefer the ESL, because you get to choose who to play with and etc. Personally I can't comment on the ESL, never interested me much as there are far better players than I so I don't see the need for trying at this point. Yes the Prize money is a a bit small but if a company don't think there is a return of investment in the idea, then why bother with it? I mean none one here has any idea what benefits nosgoth gets from having the ESL's, maybe with an increased interest from the league, there will be a bigger interest for the ESL's which will increase the prize money there. Most of us here are only gamers without any larger insight of how the things are run behind the scene, so let's not be too quick with judgment when other good stuff can come from this.

xeno2k
5th Aug 2015, 15:53
You have a duo ranked ladder at the moment. Where teams can feast on solo players. Last time I checked 2 days ago, the 2 leading guys both had 67 out 70 matches won. Great! They happen to be also top ESL players of the same team.
Yeah this is gonna be an easy $1000 for me and empathy. We duoqueue all the time because individually we're bad. We dodge anyone we know in the lobbies, so that won't be a problem. We certainly have no real lives and play all day eventhough most other players in the top50 have double our total games. I'm excited, finally some skillfull grind with my one and only love Empathy.

FireWorks_
5th Aug 2015, 16:24
Yeah this is gonna be an easy $1000 for me and empathy. We duoqueue all the time because individually we're bad. We dodge anyone we know in the lobbies, so that won't be a problem. We certainly have no real lives and play all day eventhough most other players in the top50 have double our total games. I'm excited, finally some skillfull grind with my one and only love Empathy.

In a game with 6 other players of very variable skill, your fireteam of 2 elites are a guaranteed win. Check stats... Everybody is tried to be matched at a 50% winning expectation.

You sure earn your high place for skill. But that doesnt mean the system isnt broken. Having teams playing against solo players is just not right. But thats what the population gives I guess. Cant field more than 1 league with that many players

What makes me sad here is that the winners will be either no life grinders or pubstompers. Both not exactly great, for different reasons, though.



Cut the lobby so people cant dodge or collude that easily and let them play alone or vs other teams. Even if it means waiting. With the prize money at stake, a bit of fairness might be nice.

CptUncino
5th Aug 2015, 16:25
My first thought:
Runestones->Ladder
Moneyz->Esl
But then I also thought about Starcraft2 ladder system... what do you get finishing Grandmaster? The answer is light and simple: nothing. Why should Nosgoth give around prizes out of nowhere is a mystery for me.. Going thit way you will give to your players something more to lose in case of loss; what will this create? Hate&Flame of course.
I read the idea to put this prizepool into a LAN event and THIS is a freaking cool idea in my opinion.

You, SE, just told you want to reward dedicated players.. well esl guys spend hours studying maps, creating strats, analize every corner of your game; this is the real dedication (remember that nearly the totality of esl teams actually do not compete for the moneys).
Already spoke about how much league system is broken but ppl here, in this forum, just called me an arrogant moron and asked to delete my post so I will just stfu on this topic.
Maybe an MMR system like dota should work? +25 win -25 loss... in this way you will reward both high W/L and hours spent on the game; you can still give your money to the first 100 MMR if you feel like.
What can i say more? I agree with the the totality of the raging posts here^^ I hope you will come to smarter ideas in the future.
PS: if you could do something like the re-rework of esl cash changes, after community feedback, that.. that would be great.
Best regards
ATMOSPHERE

Endsequenz
5th Aug 2015, 16:30
I must say...I think this could be a good way to get more players into the game.
At the end...this can work out good....because I don´t know what else you are planing.

It also has a lot of negative aspects., if there are not more upcoming changes.
i don´t have to go through all of them because of the stuff other ppl have written in here already.

I must agree that this is team based game..and at the end it must mostly reward players that really play in teams.

The new players will not have a good time in leagues if they don´t have a thick fur....so we really need changes there and in the community aswell.

In germany ppl watch soccer mostly...you guys may know Bayern München...
you guys will not know... idk Fc Kleindorf.
Fc Kleindorf is playing in a bottom league and will almost never play in a honest match against the professional club...because of how leagues work.
Here it is not like that yet...and there are some very dumb ppl out there, which do not get that...
every game I see a player with a bad score or sometimes mine is bad aswell...90% of the time on of these dumb ppl opens their mouth to says something.
We have that in every game.

What we don´t have in any game is top players raging at ppl cuz the system doesn´t works correctly.
And ppl that stream the game(and actually have more then 2 viewers) checking profiles all day **** talking ppl and raging like a fool.
That is no good advertisement for the game and also will not be helpful in the future.

I think this is a good place to say this.
Changes pls.

Ryugan34
5th Aug 2015, 17:54
Wow just wow .

Leagues are already plain dumb in the way the point system works . It is a grindfest, not rewarding anything but playtime, doesnt matter the win / lose ratio . (hell, i m already seeing people calling themselves top 10 european players because they got ranked in eternal when they have less than 100hours of playtime)
And you want to reward this with cash ?
Too many high level players here already stated that this is a bad move, and they are damn right .

I think you are missing the meaning of league and ranked matches . If you think you are rewarding players for their dedication on your game by doing this, you are making a huge mistake .

by doing so, you are spitting on your own game, rewarding playtime over teamplay, which should be the very essence of that game .

And congrats on calling on cheaters of all sort even more than it already is .

Halpachino
5th Aug 2015, 18:16
Is a skateboard included as one of the free prizes in monthly seasons considering the amount of grinding in ranked we will have to do

Ryugan34
5th Aug 2015, 18:28
Is a skateboard included as one of the free prizes in monthly seasons considering the amount of grinding in ranked we will have to do

That and i bet they will be selling some new packs, that include your own chinese farmer in it, so you can grind 24h a day .
Oh, and they added some lube in the pack

Talespin
5th Aug 2015, 18:44
Psyonix, this will cause nothing but problems for both you and players. This is a colossal **** up, I'm talking record-breaking.

First of all, you are rewarding nothing. Two player max queues means players have to deal with 2 random players on your team. So completely disregarding the entire 4 player team aspect of the game that every team trying to play Nosgoth competitively has been practicing since day one, instead you're splitting those people up and making it luck of the draw. Who's to say those 2 random players on your team aren't friends of the opposite team and decide to throw on purpose so their friends can win? Or what happens if one or both of them crash or just leave? What happens if the enemy team as vampire just stand out of reach on top of a roof their entire round? And lets be honest, even if the stars align and you get a decent match it's not like we can use the crappy in-game voice. No one will be able to coordinate anything, it will just be a glorified pub. There will be nothing 'competitive' about it. I could go on and on.

Also, your anti-cheat is not nearly good enough to regulate this. There will be cheaters, and you will not catch even most of them. Not to mention I doubt anyone here has faith in your matchmaking system, there will be countless broken lobbies and other matchmaking issues with an equal amount of forum posts complaining about it. No matter what, this will be a complete grind fest rewarding cheaters and people abusing the ranking system any way they can. Is this where you want your money going?


What can you do instead?

Well there's already an existing league system with rules and an anti-cheat, where teams actually have 4 players and are able to actually play competitively. It's called ESL. If you really need to, you can incorporate your in-game competitive matchmaking with ESL, but ESL needs to be the decider.

For example, let the in-game competitive matchmaking be 4 players so people can actually play AS A TEAM. Then, for the ESL Monthly finals, take the 8 qualified teams from the ESL weekly tournaments, and then add in the top 8 teams from the in-game competitive matchmaking for that month to create a 16 team ESL Monthly final bracket. Hell, even give the in-game matchmaking qualifiers some extra runestones for qualifying, I don't care. This way no matter what the teams from the in-game matchmaking still have to play through an anti-cheat and follow the rules to avoid roof-camping and other problems.

Or, you know, just ignore the in-game competitive matchmaking and leave it all up to ESL.

CptUncino
5th Aug 2015, 18:49
hell, i m already seeing people calling themselves top 10 european players because they got ranked in eternal when they have less than 100hours
I also saw new recruit guys call noobs and flame esl players who were totally carrying them 1v4 or 2v4... people is crazy... image with real moneys :rolleyes: :nut: :lol:
What about (insults)=moneys :group_hug:

Da_Wolv
5th Aug 2015, 19:26
Psyonix, this will cause nothing but problems for both you and players. This is a colossal **** up, I'm talking record-breaking.

First of all, you are rewarding nothing. Two player max queues means players have to deal with 2 random players on your team. So completely disregarding the entire 4 player team aspect of the game that every team trying to play Nosgoth competitively has been practicing since day one, instead you're splitting those people up and making it luck of the draw. Who's to say those 2 random players on your team aren't friends of the opposite team and decide to throw on purpose so their friends can win? Or what happens if one or both of them crash or just leave? What happens if the enemy team as vampire just stand out of reach on top of a roof their entire round? And lets be honest, even if the stars align and you get a decent match it's not like we can use the crappy in-game voice. No one will be able to coordinate anything, it will just be a glorified pub. There will be nothing 'competitive' about it. I could go on and on.

Also, your anti-cheat is not nearly good enough to regulate this. There will be cheaters, and you will not catch even most of them. Not to mention I doubt anyone here has faith in your matchmaking system, there will be countless broken lobbies and other matchmaking issues with an equal amount of forum posts complaining about it. No matter what, this will be a complete grind fest rewarding cheaters and people abusing the ranking system any way they can. Is this where you want your money going?


What can you do instead?

Well there's already an existing league system with rules and an anti-cheat, where teams actually have 4 players and are able to actually play competitively. It's called ESL. If you really need to, you can incorporate your in-game competitive matchmaking with ESL, but ESL needs to be the decider.

For example, let the in-game competitive matchmaking be 4 players so people can actually play AS A TEAM. Then, for the ESL Monthly finals, take the 8 qualified teams from the ESL weekly tournaments, and then add in the top 8 teams from the in-game competitive matchmaking for that month to create a 16 team ESL Monthly final bracket. Hell, even give the in-game matchmaking qualifiers some extra runestones for qualifying, I don't care. This way no matter what the teams from the in-game matchmaking still have to play through an anti-cheat and follow the rules to avoid roof-camping and other problems.

Or, you know, just ignore the in-game competitive matchmaking and leave it all up to ESL.

^All of this!

uNborn-
5th Aug 2015, 20:26
For all the reasons listed above in every logical post in this thread, please re-evaluate how you want your money spent. Fostering a competitive community or rewarding hackers and the general pub players just for showing up and rolling a dice. This is a TEAM based game. I see none of that here in this new development.


I actually don't know what else to say. This entire ordeal is laughable in even its best case scenario.


sigh.

OozOwnsU
6th Aug 2015, 00:10
For all the reasons listed above in every logical post in this thread, please re-evaluate how you want your money spent. Fostering a competitive community or rewarding hackers and the general pub players just for showing up and rolling a dice. This is a TEAM based game. I see none of that here in this new development.


I actually don't know what else to say. This entire ordeal is laughable in even its best case scenario.


sigh.

I couldn't care less who the best player/team is nor do I care about how much of your life you waste on ESL tournaments or this game. My interest is in how amazing this game and its game play is, this is nothing more than a business strategy they're trying to grow the game and grow their income based on the revenue. Most games use different marketing strategy for growth and I believe this is a fantastic way to get players who know nothing about nosgoth to gain interest into the game due to the cash pools available. All the people complaining had no competition when the game was firstly introduced now skilled gamers are making a scene and revealing your false progress in this gaming scene please.

I always hate it when a community tries to control the outcome of a game, sometimes it work but majority of the time it doesn't because most of you playing these games can't see the big picture. They have a marketing team and probably understand how fast the game is growing just because of ESL therefore if they include different type of ventures for players to be entitled to, the community and popularity of the game will grow.

If you don't like it simply stop playing because if players like you stay on a growing game like this, you will be the cause of the down fall with your greedy logic

Reasons why you are arguing:

Queuing -

since when as game queuing on any game been fair lmao.


Anti cheat-

Well firstly for this section anyone who's actually played well known games like LoL csgo and so on would understand that before the season end or prizes are given out, all the accounts a check and every file report are taken into mind, therefore if someone is ELO boosting or hacking they will investigate, and try their best to ban those who are before prizes are given out. Interest system isn't it? well its not hard to do. So whats the problem let the cheaters hack their way to rank one or whatever. Then when the monthly rewards come get them all check and the unlegit players banned how hard is it to handle that. What else is there so cry about?

Bazielim
6th Aug 2015, 00:53
Greetings ladies and gentlemen, just a small visit from your friendly neighbourhood moderator reminding you to check out our terms of use (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?f=97&a=1).

There have been a few violations in the last few posts so can we all keep it clean, cool and constructive please? thanks guys.

Da_Wolv
6th Aug 2015, 07:05
We are not just arguing that this is a bad idea because the matchmaking is less then 'meh' and the money will attract both cheaters and professional hackers. That's just a side dish.

What annoys me the most, is that many of us have been supporting this game since the beginning, play ESL every week for measily prices, and now, instead of working together with our teams to get better prices, we are expected to toss them aside and go solo.

They claim since the start that they want to grow the "competitice community".
But why should I even bother to play ESL anymore?
Some ESL matches take forever to set up, sometimes you have to wait for your opponent. Some matches are played Best of 3, which means potentially 3+ maps!
All that time could be better spent getting my rank up, since the reward for it will be much higher!
Especially teams like mine that consistently make 4th place or just below it, are much better off not bothering with ESL anymore!
THIS is the main problem!
Thats not even talking about the logistical nightmares, regulation, fairness (crashes, DC's) etc.

OozOwnsU
6th Aug 2015, 08:27
We are not just arguing that this is a bad idea because the matchmaking is less then 'meh' and the money will attract both cheaters and professional hackers. That's just a side dish.

What annoys me the most, is that many of us have been supporting this game since the beginning, play ESL every week for measily prices, and now, instead of working together with our teams to get better prices, we are expected to toss them aside and go solo.

They claim since the start that they want to grow the "competitice community".
But why should I even bother to play ESL anymore?
Some ESL matches take forever to set up, sometimes you have to wait for your opponent. Some matches are played Best of 3, which means potentially 3+ maps!
All that time could be better spent getting my rank up, since the reward for it will be much higher!
Especially teams like mine that consistently make 4th place or just below it, are much better off not bothering with ESL anymore!
THIS is the main problem!
Thats not even talking about the logistical nightmares, regulation, fairness (crashes, DC's) etc.

Here we go again about people rumbling about hacks and how it's unfair you devoted your time and support to the game. Nosgoth is a growing game, it can't just put all its eggs in one basket. Yes it's a team game but in fact multiple team based games give the top ranking players gifts/prizes and even awards for their achievements. Coming from league of legends I've seen that Nosgoth ranking system is strongly based of theirs if I'm not wrong. League rewards upcoming rookies top ranking players and so much more. There are different possibilities for people to earn something of a game like that which is what this company is trying to do. Why on earth will they give all the money to those of you who have nothing to do on your weekends more rewards than needed at this moment in time? As nosgoth is a growing game the ESLprizes will increase likewise for the soloQ.

Before you start replying with ooo "its not fair", "oo theirs a plus to more hackers" please the out burst of hackers is just a sign that people are acknowledge a games popularity. Hacking isn't the problem its just how the game deals with it. My original post contains information of how other games solve the solution of people ELO boosting or cheating their way to get rewards they don't deserve. Nosgoth should do as they please because as far as I'm concerned everything this game as done till now has been amazing.

The main problem is that the ESL players are complaining because the already TOP ranking teams or players would like to earn more than they already get in ESL tournaments. That's the major truth.

Furthermore about Team queuing, What makes you think they won't implement the same system for Ranked teams when they eventually add it.


My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

- In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

- Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

- Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

- Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

- Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

- Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.

Out of all the posts I've seen on this forum, this is the only one that makes sense. He's giving advise to help the game in the direction they are going towards. My only addition would be if the prizes are giving out after a year or so. To cancel out multiple accounts actually contact the winners directly before giving their prizes. Ensure you check every single player who are likely to win something no signs of ELO boosting (change in IP in a short time, better/worse performance based on different IPs). Getting everyone to sign an agreement to prevent people from farming ranked games on multiple.

HexMee
6th Aug 2015, 08:35
Every single post in this thread is advocating the exact opposite of greediness, we all want this taken away because it's going to split people apart and promote fighting each other individually while the game should be focused on working together because it's a TEAM GAME.

You bring up league of legends. Imagine if the casters approach the winning team in their biggest tournament and go like "well done guys! You won the one million dollars! But player 1 in your team had the most kills overall so he will be getting 50% of the price himself, remaining team members will have to split the rest!".
That is exactly what is happening here. I want to play with and achieve victory WITH my team members that I've been enjoying this game with for half a year, but since there is more than twice as much money on stake for getting the first place in solo ladder than what i could make in all tournaments combined with my team during the month, I have no choice but to go play alone and leave my friends in the dust.

When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.

OozOwnsU
6th Aug 2015, 08:43
Only a few mentioned the money should be used on performance, I've seen majority of the ESL players give consistent statements about how the money should be used in increasing ESL. Since when did league of legends work in the foul system you just stated. Worlds, MSI, ESL and multiple tournaments are all completely different from the actual in game rewards.

Plus recently when Fnatic got 4th in MSI, Huni was awarded a trophy of the best Rookie this split. It had no impact on the entire teams reward his reward was completely separate.

HexMee
6th Aug 2015, 08:50
On a serious note to the devs:

I don't know how you plan to give out the winnings but since this whole thing is already cut in stone and there is really no way to turn back now. Will you help us distribute the prices evenly between players if we request so?

Since you force us to fight each other instead of with one another, the only way to survive this change and still remain friends with my current team members is to make a pact to put as many hours into the solo ladder as everyone else in the team and then split the total winnings together evenly so everyone gets the same cut. Problem here is that since most teams have people from many different countries, sending money back and forth will incur currency change fees, tax problems etc, plus it would be a major general headache to organize it.

Bazielim
6th Aug 2015, 08:55
It's a shame no-one read my post. Thread temporarily closed pending review. Normal service will be resumed shortly.

Bazielim
6th Aug 2015, 11:53
And we're back up. Can we keep it civil from now on guys?

Da_Wolv
6th Aug 2015, 12:05
Only a few mentioned the money should be used on performance, I've seen majority of the ESL players give consistent statements about how the money should be used in increasing ESL.

As I stated before, I am not opposed to minor cash prizes in Solo Ranked. Give 100 bucks to the first 5 ranks, sure. Give out free Runestones and Chests to the rest!

The question was why Solo Ranked ws going to be more promoted than playing and synergizing in a team!
Noone said ALL of the money should go into ESL. Its a lot of cash. I am surprised they even liquidiced a 1000 bucks, let alone 10k.
Nonetheless, it leaves a bitter taste in our mouths if you go ahead and cut the already small prize pool in ESL and roughly a month later come out and do this.



When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.
Testify!

malgaa
6th Aug 2015, 12:07
My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

- In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

- Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

- Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

- Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

- Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

- Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.

Added:

- System to check if the vampire team is permanently camping in roofs: (is this even possible?) like Talespin said, a team could win their human round and then not engage at all in their vampire round, just wait until the round ends.

Endsequenz
6th Aug 2015, 12:17
As I stated before, I am not opposed to minor cash prizes in Solo Ranked. Give 100 bucks to the first 5 ranks, sure. Give out free Runestones and Chests to the rest!

The question was why Solo Ranked ws going to be more promoted than playing and synergizing in a team!
Noone said ALL of the money should go into ESL. Its a lot of cash. I am surprised they even liquidiced a 1000 bucks, let alone 10k.
Nonetheless, it leaves a bitter taste in our mouths if you go ahead and cut the already small prize pool in ESL and roughly a month later come out and do this.


Testify!

Don´t get me wrong here, I understand you guys and I am with you.
But the only ppl I see crying in this threat are esl-players.
Ofc they do..their money was reduced and now is going into the game.

But you guys gotta understand, that if the money would stay in esl at this point...it wouldn´t go too far with you guys.
Nobody cares about esl at this moment, as HexMeh already said himself.

Just yesterday I opened twitch to see who is streaming and saw that there is a streamer with the title, "Nosgoth- now an esl-sport".
This can bring a lot of ppl and with it money and attention into this game.
And if so, you might be playing for even more money then before at the end.

Da_Wolv
6th Aug 2015, 12:31
I think we all said what we could say.

The few people (and arguments) brought in favour of this prize structure came with a huge laundry list of "ifs" and "buts" that need to be addressed first. If anything, this announcement was timed terribly! Don't announce prizes for a mode that is still in Beta and broken like the rest of the game atm.

I don't think theres any point debating here anymore until Psyonix or SE make a statement.

Shikei001
6th Aug 2015, 12:32
My realistic list of things to implement before Season 1 starts:

- In-game report system: allow people to report cheaters easily (there will be an increase in cheaters) or players that intentionally feed or stay afk.

- Harder punishments for leavers: imitate csgo model: big points lost + incremental bans (30m first time, 1h second time, 3h third time...). I know this is harder to do with such a small playerbase so maybe implement something similar to what you have in regular matchmaking: allow people to join already started games in the break in between rounds and make it count as a win for the late player if they win the 2nd round, even if the team has less points overall.

- Add a surrender option: allow a team to surrender when they have less than 4 or 3 players or make it happen automatically after a few mins.

- Encourage winrate/skill over hours: in the current ranked system you get points easily just by playing even if you don't perform that well.

- Development and bug fixing needs to be better/faster: (this one is not so realistic) to me it feels like the game develops too slowly and whenever there's a new bug it takes too long to get addressed (like the allmighty freeze bug).

- Nosgoth could use some more performance improvements.

- System to check if the vampire team is permanently camping in roofs: (is this even possible?) like Talespin said, a team could win their human round and then not engage at all in their vampire round, just wait until the round ends.
I honestly think malgaa's suggestions need more attention.
After the official blog update I think we should try to make the best out of it.
Haste makes waste, if we start trying to redo something decided, most times it gets worst.
And during the first League Season, we can propose adjustments for the 2nd.


To clearify:
1. Lets try to make the best out of the decided first season of League, with the suggestions from malgaa.
2. During Season 1, we discuss how league should evolve.

Example for 2.:
In Season 2 the best 10 player receive money prizes, the 11th-50th place receives runestones, 50th-99th receives keys.
ESl will get more promotion (in-game, on steam site, on blog).
The money pool gets needed adjustments.

Endsequenz
6th Aug 2015, 12:51
I think we all said what we could say.

The few people (and arguments) brought in favour of this prize structure came with a huge laundry list of "ifs" and "buts" that need to be addressed first. If anything, this announcement was timed terribly! Don't announce prizes for a mode that is still in Beta and broken like the rest of the game atm.

I don't think theres any point debating here anymore until Psyonix or SE make a statement.

That is correct my friend.

FireWorks_
6th Aug 2015, 12:52
@Shikei

The marketing goal is to attract and bind new players. I doubt you can lure anybody with ingame values that are worthless to the outside world. This door has been shut by denying the steam marketplace.

The design decision is made to promote a public gamemode for everybody instead of "professional" gaming on the competitive side.
They way it looks atm Public League will wipe out ESL competition due to the fact that it is more lucrative - by a very wide margin.

I dont get why SE decided to push one so hard and as side effect ditch the other so hard. But maybe they will announce something that will make it worthwhile for the ESL, too. Cant be that pubstomping becomes glorified now.

Da_Wolv
6th Aug 2015, 13:12
The marketing goal is to attract and bind new players. I doubt you can lure anybody with ingame values that are worthless to the outside world. This door has been shut by denying the steam marketplace.


While I can understand your like of argument, I reject it!
You may be able to attract new players by offering real cash prizes, but if the game is in the same state (lags, crashes, DCs, matchmaking etc.) you will lose them right away, and probably forever.

FireWorks_
6th Aug 2015, 13:28
Totally agree. I never said something different :)

But does it matter? Would anything change the game if theyd burn the money somewhere else?

Halpachino
6th Aug 2015, 13:36
This seems like a last ditch attempt to reel in players and its just not going to work.
besides the myriad of problems other people have listed, once the money dries people are just going to leave anyway.
They should take a look at what valve did with CS.GO

CS:GO was absolutely dead in the water from its release, August 2012, until the end of 2013. This graph from this article illustrates how dead CS:GO’s growth was once it was released(link at bottom). This is completely anecdotal, but I remember everyone laughing at CS:GO, talking about how much of a joke the game was and how it would never, ever be in the spotlight in the same way 1.6 was. Hell, people were even praising Source compared to the atrocity that was GO.

So what happened? What gave CS:GO the “push” it needed to see the explosive growth it’s had over the past few years? It wasn’t community support, it wasn’t large community members, it wasn’t a vibrant tournament scene or silly prizes and it wasn’t positive posts on a subreddit.

VALVE SUPPORTED THEIR GAME. Valve’s released 45 patches in 2014 alone! They’re constantly working with players to keep the game fresh via new maps and balance tweaking. The Steam market place and skinning system make the game feel alive and fresh. They added a new queuing system that allowed people to find matches easier. They reworked their ranking system. They reworked a TON of weapon balance in early 2013 based on player feedback. And on top of all of this, they found a way to finance their development teams – by using the Steam market to sell skins and keys.

article http://web.archive.org/web/20141224123611/http://www.esports.gg/csgos-high-growth-rate-in-2014/

Endsequenz
6th Aug 2015, 13:59
This seems like a last ditch attempt to reel in players and its just not going to work.
besides the myriad of problems other people have listed, once the money dries people are just going to leave anyway.
They should take a look at what valve did with CS.GO

CS:GO was absolutely dead in the water from its release, August 2012, until the end of 2013. This graph from this article illustrates how dead CS:GO’s growth was once it was released(link at bottom). This is completely anecdotal, but I remember everyone laughing at CS:GO, talking about how much of a joke the game was and how it would never, ever be in the spotlight in the same way 1.6 was. Hell, people were even praising Source compared to the atrocity that was GO.

So what happened? What gave CS:GO the “push” it needed to see the explosive growth it’s had over the past few years? It wasn’t community support, it wasn’t large community members, it wasn’t a vibrant tournament scene or silly prizes and it wasn’t positive posts on a subreddit.

VALVE SUPPORTED THEIR GAME. Valve’s released 45 patches in 2014 alone! They’re constantly working with players to keep the game fresh via new maps and balance tweaking. The Steam market place and skinning system make the game feel alive and fresh. They added a new queuing system that allowed people to find matches easier. They reworked their ranking system. They reworked a TON of weapon balance in early 2013 based on player feedback. And on top of all of this, they found a way to finance their development teams – by using the Steam market to sell skins and keys.

article http://web.archive.org/web/20141224123611/http://www.esports.gg/csgos-high-growth-rate-in-2014/


Good point there...a bit pessimistic, but maybe ou are right.
But I must say, Counter Strike had a way bigger community before CS:GO released.
By saying CS:GO was dead, I think if I remeber it right, most ppl were still playing Counter Strike.

But yes..maybe you are right...we will see.

FireWorks_
6th Aug 2015, 15:43
This seems like a last ditch attempt to reel in players and its just not going to work.
besides the myriad of problems other people have listed, once the money dries people are just going to leave anyway.
They should take a look at what valve did with CS.GO

CS:GO was absolutely dead in the water from its release, August 2012, until the end of 2013. This graph from this article illustrates how dead CS:GO’s growth was once it was released(link at bottom). This is completely anecdotal, but I remember everyone laughing at CS:GO, talking about how much of a joke the game was and how it would never, ever be in the spotlight in the same way 1.6 was. Hell, people were even praising Source compared to the atrocity that was GO.

So what happened? What gave CS:GO the “push” it needed to see the explosive growth it’s had over the past few years? It wasn’t community support, it wasn’t large community members, it wasn’t a vibrant tournament scene or silly prizes and it wasn’t positive posts on a subreddit.

VALVE SUPPORTED THEIR GAME. Valve’s released 45 patches in 2014 alone! They’re constantly working with players to keep the game fresh via new maps and balance tweaking. The Steam market place and skinning system make the game feel alive and fresh. They added a new queuing system that allowed people to find matches easier. They reworked their ranking system. They reworked a TON of weapon balance in early 2013 based on player feedback. And on top of all of this, they found a way to finance their development teams – by using the Steam market to sell skins and keys.

article http://web.archive.org/web/20141224123611/http://www.esports.gg/csgos-high-growth-rate-in-2014/

A nice read.

Id like to point out that people go crazy over the market place... I earned more money there (with TF2 items) than Nosgoth tournaments could ever do. I cant say why people buy items for hundreds or even thousands of dollars, but they do and enjoy. But it doesnt have to be that high, millions of transactions every day with cent margins... Valve took 15% of it and everybody was actually happy. Valve, the buyers and me.
Not having something similar still feels like a huge missed opportunity on any other game, especially F2Ps. Dont know what margin would be left there for SE but I am sure they wont get poor over it.

uNborn-
6th Aug 2015, 19:59
When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.

I can't believe i'm going to say this... but, I agree with someone from deadsun.. about something........ anything..... Oh my. This is a circus.

Dron1508
6th Aug 2015, 20:26
When you try to throw money at people and they collectively say no thank you, that's how you know it's a bad idea.

I can't believe i'm going to say this... but, I agree with someone from deadsun.. about something........ anything..... Oh my. This is a circus.

Easy, man, you don't wanna your **** to burn all this thread

senjuj
6th Aug 2015, 20:38
spend these money for repair and rational improvements of game.:mad2:

Ryugan34
6th Aug 2015, 21:43
Just throwing this here, from your own blog :
"League points are earned at the end of a match, based purely on the outcome between the two teams (win, loss or draw); individual scores don’t matter."
So, where is that individuals dont matter and yet you are basing this ranked prize thing on it ?

You guys make 0 sense .

You should add a "unemployed people only, chinese farmer only, nolife people only" on the description of leagues .

I will say it again, but as long as your ranked point system is so far away from game like LoL, CS, Street fighter 4, Starcraft or alike, it wont be viable . Its only a grindfest at the moment, where only your playtime matters, not your skill (i have never seen a noob in challenger in LoL, i have seen noobs being top 10 eternal in nosgoth, figures)

LOFO1993
6th Aug 2015, 21:50
I don't understand this. At all. This will produce NOTHING useful in the long term, just incentivize rage, discussions and cheating.

Do you really think throwing some money around will be enough to make many people want to endure hours upon hours of playtime with laggy servers, poor performance, bad matchmaking, and whatnot?


If not enough people are playing the game it's not because they need to be brought to it, but because after a while almost everybody sees it never gets substantially better, they lose hope for it eventually working properly and decide it's not worth the frustration.

The sooner you internalize that, the sooner you will stop dancing around it with non-solutions for non-issues (making matches end sooner, modes turnarounds, prizes for randomly-queued games etc.)



Please, I implore you, hire a QA team for a month instead and fix at least some of the real issues. Tell Square Enix you don't need them to throw money at you, but rather some workforce and some technical help. Make a competent long-term plan that actually contemplates bugfixing and matchmaking improvements, instead of repeating to both us and yourselves "yeah, we'll work on those eventually" and then never even try.

Nobody believes you anymore when you say that. And I'm not implying you don't mean it and you're trying to scam us, but the perception from the outside a lot of people get is that. THIS is the true big problem of Nosgoth.

Make the game run 2x times better on weak hardware, wipe out all the minor annoyances you can (wrong images being displayed, sistematic micro-freezes, small exploits, server issues etc.) and I swear to god you will see your player count rise and rise. This is what you should have done a year ago; you're probably still in time, but your credid is really running low now, and things can get only worse from here.



You have an incredibly talented design team and a very good art team. But for the love of god, hire more programmers, bugfixers and people working on the technical side, because it's getting ridiculous.

Ryugan34
6th Aug 2015, 22:00
On a side note from all this new ranked prize drama .
Think 2 seconds about why its making such an uproar among your most dedicated players .
We love this game (or at least we want to, you guys are making it harder), we want to keep playing it, and we are doing it despite all those bugs / servers lag issue / micro freeze / disconnected for no reason .
Dont ruin it .

Da_Wolv
6th Aug 2015, 22:44
Listen to LOFO!
and Ryugan too, for that matter.


The only way you can still salvage this situation is to make plans to fix how ranked works!
One big issue, aside from the obvious crashing, freezing and just general cringeworthy performance, is the ability to skip lobbies. ATM you can quit any lobby with an enemy team that looks like it could take you down, just click that disconnect button and re-queue in 2 minutes.
That should not be a thing! Why do we even need lobbies in ranked? Remove them. That should be priority No.1

Next up is reconnect issues. Granted, if and when you get the DCs and crashes under control that'll be less of an issue, but at least make it so you don't lose points regardless of whether you reconnect or not. I lost 28 points today coz my router decided to shut down for a second... twice.

The point gain is also something that needs to be looked at. It can't be that you just gain points the more you play. This ties into matchmaking. If eternal players can get put into lobbies with Bronze players, then whats the point of having divisions to begin with? Also, if you base the point gain around your team vs. enemy team pointage, then thats also a problem, since you could have "luck" and land in a lobby with very high level players you are able to beat, gaining lots of points, or landing in lobbies with scrubs, which you beat even more easily, but waste your precious play time on while only getting small amounts of points for it.

Also - roof camping. Malga already said it, and I even heard from a fellow gamer today that certain players are already adapting this mindset: 1st round as humans won? GG - just hide and wait 10 minutes. EZ

MasterFurbz
6th Aug 2015, 23:50
Let's foster our competitive community and really show people the team based nature of our game by:

-Fixing NOSCAM
-Hosting LAN tournaments
-Fixing game breaking bugs
-Creating promotional material

J/K we're gonna throw thousands of dollars at a solo Queue pub AND CALL IT RANKED!.


It's gettin really hard to white knight for you Square.

WWidow
6th Aug 2015, 23:52
Only a few mentioned the money should be used on performance
Maybe because Ryan already said that these are different budges...


I've seen majority of the ESL players give consistent statements about how the money should be used in increasing ESL
A few weeks ago they "improved" the ESL prize pool to get more teams playin in the esl, so this is a damn good argument from these players.

EDIT 2: Another pro-esl argument: In the ESL there is region lock, so EU teams won't play against NA teams because of the latency, but in ranked it happens all the time...



Anti cheat-

Well firstly for this section anyone who's actually played well known games like LoL csgo and so on would understand that before the season end or prizes are given out, all the accounts a check and every file report are taken into mind, therefore if someone is ELO boosting or hacking they will investigate, and try their best to ban those who are before prizes are given out. Interest system isn't it? well its not hard to do. So whats the problem let the cheaters hack their way to rank one or whatever. Then when the monthly rewards come get them all check and the unlegit players banned how hard is it to handle that. What else is there so cry about?

Did you ever play CS? So there are cash prizes now on CS except for ESL/CEVO/MLG/FaceIt/ESEA or LAN tournaments? Hacker/Cheater are no problem in CS?! It's a huge problem (even on LANs) and Valve is struggling with it, like every other game developer. There have been multiple VAC-ban waves a few months ago and there are already tons of new hacks that are not detectable. And CS only has its ranks - no money, no ingame rewards.
That's why the mentioned leagues use there own anti-cheat system.

You sound like it's done in no work. Keeping your anti-cheat uptodate and watching the replays of reported players (you can't ban them all, because of rage-reports) is daily work for multiple people.

And you can't compare everything from lol to nosgoth. Solo- and Duo-queue together might be a good idea in a 5v5, but maybe not in a 4v4. And even if you duo-queue in lol there won't be a second duo in your team and the other team has guaranteed a duo too. And in cs as well as lol you only play with/against people of your (team's) rank. Even if it takes half an hour to find a match.



Reasons why you are arguing:

Queuing -

since when as game queuing on any game been fair lmao.

The main problem is that the ESL players are complaining because the already TOP ranking teams or players would like to earn more than they already get in ESL tournaments. That's the major truth.
the cs queuing is quite ok and the real reason why everyone is arguing are
- the ranked system is not near working yet
- there is literally no possibility to play serious 4v4 matches except for ESL or private matches and this in a team based game...lmao. If you play TDM you get flamed by your opponents or they leave, which is understandable since the ingame communication is a pain in the *** and they have the disadvantage all the time. And also it's no fun to win as 4-stack against 4 randoms.
- we don't need higher rewards for ESL on the first hand, but on the other hand it needs more work/practice to become a good team than to become a good single player so the reward (which is divided by all players of the team) should be a little bit bigger. Otherwise the people will start to train as duo to get the money from solo-ranked instead of training as team to make some progress in the esl. And we all want more teams playin in the esl.

EDIT:
I agree on the point that this will hopefully increase the playerbase and with a bigger playerbase the matchmaking will work much better.
The question is, will there be a team-ranked too? Can you win there the same amount of money per player like in solo-ranked? It does not look like it will be...so how to play this team based game as a team?!

GenFeelGood
7th Aug 2015, 02:18
It isn't too late to take it back SE, you could say that you changed the plan after overwhelming community feedback.

The competitive players would rather it went towards ESL; and this cash prize isn't necessary to incentivize them into playing ranked. The skins, keys, and fun of the game are enough to get us all playing; and runestones would be nice enough if there does need to be something for the top ranked players.

Us content focused players would rather it went towards developing single player or PvE game modes with things like in game cinematics and NPC AI, something to make us care more about the war and all the drama surrounding it.

You have noted that this money is coming from a separate area of the budget, so we understand that this isn't taking away from any thing else planned for the game; but we just don't want it to be wasted (and as you can see, the majority of us see this as a waste) when there is still a list of things that we would much rather have the money go towards if it currently isn't in the budget as it stands now.

uNborn-
7th Aug 2015, 04:09
Tried the "ranked leagues today". Experience was nothing short of abysmal. Please for the love of all logic and sense put this money in a league setting where skill actually matters instead of people just grinding it out day after day and dodging people they know are better than them. I could barely get a lobby with the number of people leaving constantly. The system is flawed. The bugs are everywhere. Its a complete and utter disaster.


Oh and I played 5 3v4s today, both on my team and the other almost back to back. People are raging and crashing left and right.

kLauE187
7th Aug 2015, 04:16
lan with huge pricepool to increase playerbase (hello ns2/evolve). dead sun coca-cola zenith inc. teams dont have time anymore to study noscam and make sick next-level strats. poor square-enix goes broke after 3 month because they spend 10k a month for nosgoth. money for ranked without increased toxicity and paid hacks. nolifers grinding 12h every day with 30% winrate. capable coder for ut3-engine found on planet kepler452b. i see a bright future for nosgoth. forgot to buy salt and popcorn today gg

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 07:29
First of all...

lan with huge pricepool to increase playerbase (hello ns2/evolve). dead sun coca-cola zenith inc. teams dont have time anymore to study noscam and make sick next-level strats. poor square-enix goes broke after 3 month because they spend 10k a month for nosgoth. money for ranked without increased toxicity and paid hacks. nolifers grinding 12h every day with 30% winrate. capable coder for ut3-engine found on planet kepler452b. i see a bright future for nosgoth. forgot to buy salt and popcorn today gg

:thumb: LOL :worship:


It isn't too late to take it back SE, you could say that you changed the plan after overwhelming community feedback.

I certainly hope so!



Us content focused players would rather it went towards developing single player or PvE game modes with things like in game cinematics and NPC AI, something to make us care more about the war and all the drama surrounding it.
What? This is a multiplayer game. They can't even get that to work, now you want them to basically make an entire game within a game? Hell no!



Oh and I played 5 3v4s today, both on my team and the other almost back to back. People are raging and crashing left and right.
Yep. And this has been like this since Alpha. I had two DC's as well yesterday and if you click reconnect and it tells you that "the game is unavailable" (which it can't be, coz ranked) then you are locked out for good and your team is ****! :mad:




You have noted that this money is coming from a separate area of the budget, so we understand that this isn't taking away from any thing else planned for the game; but we just don't want it to be wasted (and as you can see, the majority of us see this as a waste) when there is still a list of things that we would much rather have the money go towards if it currently isn't in the budget as it stands now.

If this money was made available precisely for promotion purposes/competitive play, I don't even know how they decided to give NONE of it to the ESL. With 10k in the pocket there could've been at least 2k going on way and still have plenty to go around Eternal (Which would still have the same problems as pointed out in the last couple pages)

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 08:57
Offt I was expecting more dissenting opinions on this issue but it seems about 90% or above seems to think these ranked prizes to be a bad idea for various reasons. Wow SE - that's pretty damn bad....in fact I don't think I've seen this much of a dissent since Nosgoth was first announced. If gaining new hardcore players and fans is the name of the game, then handing out cash prizes is rather asinine an idea. What you need are new immersive modes, bug fixes galore, more maps, graphical updates and reliance on the playing community to do your marketing for you.

Also, and I admit this is my own priority which probably can be counted as part of my LoK bias, I doubt players brought in just to grind away for the cash prizes are going to want to stick around because they had time to engross themselves in the world in which Nosgoth is set. They'll move onto the next thing.

FireWorks_
7th Aug 2015, 08:57
@Wolv
You said you cant reconnect after your router reset. Might be worth pointing that out to QA with a bug report: Cant reconnect to a match with different IP?

LOFO1993
7th Aug 2015, 09:01
I just want to point out I'm not an ESL player, I never was and probably never will be, but if you really have to give that money away to someone, at least redirect most of it there. Why? Because, from my limited understanding, it's one of the very few things in Nosgoth close to actually working.

You have to show and publicize the best of your product, while you fix and improve the rest in backstage, not the other way round.


Even if your strategy works and you attract 100k new players for ranked (which is not gonna happen, because most magazines have basically blacklisted the game, probably because most of their users don't care and the rest attacks it for "old LoK" random fanboyism or whatever), most of those people will leave out of frustration in a couple of weeks at best (because they were there for the money alone, but who wants or can endure it when it's 80% grinding, 10% luck and only 10% actual skill, and everybody around you constantly leaves and insults you?).

So what did you get? You artificially inflated your player numbers for a little while, but that's not gonna last. You know that. Nosgoth was downloaded 1 million times when Open Beta begun, now it's played by 1.5k people at peak times. That means a LOT of people gave it a chance, but eventually gave up. You have to try and keep as many people as possible, not bribe more to get in until they inevitably leaves again for the same reasons everyone else did.


Guys, you're completely losing it. Hands on heart, I don't hold any anger or grudge towards you, but you're **** it up more and more with time passing, when, again, it should be the other way round. People expects the game to get better, not staying the same after a year in Beta, or even becoming arguably worse. That's why people leave and stop playing, or never begin at all.

Nosgoth is a shadow of what it was in Closed Alpha and Closed Beta; it did have issues back then, but they were limited, and it didn't seem anything impossible to fix with a bit of work. The game on a grand scale worked great, that's what mattered.

Now it's almost impossible to have a decent, competent match unless you are in a pre-made and randomly happen to play against another pre-made. Of course if there are a lot of clueless players it's not the developer's fault, but the fact you will play with literally anybody all the time, no matter how good you/they are and what you/they did, made a lot of people who actually try and hope in a fair challenge leave, and the rest went into pre-mades. I have about 20 people in my Steam friend list, all of which played the game A LOT in Alpha and Closed Beta, they were at least competent, polite and cool guys to be around with; now maybe one or two of them, once a month, timidly open the game, then close it pretty quickly. And I found myself doing the exact same thing.

After a year or so in this state, with the quality of matches going down and the technical situation getting not all that better overall, then you start coming out with bizarre ideas and changes nobody asked for - of which this is the absolute apex. A huge portion of users are openly opposing them, and EVERYBODY you could ever ask says the issues they have with the game are completely different and they would rather you work on those (crashes, lag, matchmaking, poor performance, bugs etc.).



If you keep going down this route, things will only get worse. Work on the REAL ISSUES with your game, EVERYBODY sees and denounces them, and EVERYBODY is pissed off at best and has already left at worst.

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 09:16
and the rest attacks it for "old LoK" random fanboyism or whatever),

Being one of those who ranted and raved at first, I gradually came around to the idea of Nosgoth being able to provide some interest in getting the LoK series back up and running but it seems less and less to me that is actually a priority

LOFO1993
7th Aug 2015, 09:30
Being one of those who ranted and raved at first, I gradually came around to the idea of Nosgoth being able to provide some interest in getting the LoK series back up and running but it seems less and less to me that is actually a priority

I'm mainly talking about people who have never even played Nosgoth (and some, I'm gonna bet, not even properly the Legacy of Kain games).

The big gaming outlets are home to an army of kids and teens who seem to have nothing better to do than bandwagon and mobrage for literally anything. Nosgoth having not so many players, and even less players willing to publicly defend it, the default reaction I see the most was "It's Square Enix and it's f2p, so I'm allowed to call it **** and a quick buck, even if I haven't even seen it".

I don't think any decently big gaming outlet has written the word "Nosgoth" in 6-8 months at least, save maybe some dedicated to multiplayer games only (most of which are, anyway, not that big). It doesn't bring clicks, most readers just don't care and never will. So, whatever Psyonix does now, 99% of the people they are talking to are those who know and probably play the game already.


Which makes this latest turn of events even more baffling.

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 09:36
I'm mainly talking about people who have never even played Nosgoth (and some, I'm gonna bet, not even properly the Legacy of Kain games).

The big gaming outlets are home to an army of kids and teens who seem to have nothing better to do than bandwagon and mobrage for literally anything. Nosgoth having not so many players, and even less players willing to publicly defend it, the default reaction I see the most was "It's Square Enix and it's f2p, so I'm allowed to call it **** and a quick buck, even if I haven't even seen it".

I don't think any decently big gaming outlet has written the word "Nosgoth" in 6-8 months at least, save maybe some dedicated to multiplayer games only (most of which are, anyway, not that big). It doesn't bring clicks, most readers just don't care and never will. So, whatever Psyonix does now, 99% of the people they are talking to are those who know and probably play the game already.


Which makes this latest turn of events even more baffling.

Yeah this constant focus on trying to bring in people to a franchise and game who are fly by night gamers and would never settle down to the nuances of the series its based on is insane but that what seems to be the main idea at the moment. Nosgoth ought to be consolidating and allowing the current players to do their marketing for them - spreading the word of the game to those they know would enjoy it. Everything else is a waste of time and money and to me these ranked prizes at the ultimate expression of that current trend.

lucinvampire
7th Aug 2015, 09:39
LOFO1993@ I think you’ve truly hit the nail on the head there (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160032&page=4&p=2146261#post2146261)!

When I first heard this I was like “ah oooookkkkk then…” after thinking about it the last few days I still think it’s barking, I can understand the logic but I can’t…my brain it’s melted.

I understand it’s a separate pool of money from the actual game development, which my argument of spend the money on the game fixes and in game stuff will be invalid…even though I think for now the game needs to be fixed and then draw people in with shiny.

Personally I think if they want to give a cash prize at first start small, the top 3 players get a prize and the rest get skins/chests and in game related stuff, spending out like 1.5K a month rather than this crazy amount.

…and I ask myself, are these people, the ones drawn in by the cash prizes going to be the ones to spend out the money on the game? And/or are we the players, the fans, going to spend over 10K a month to cover this cost and however much it takes to employ devs etc to balance out the massive spending?! I’m really hoping this won’t bankrupt the game.

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 09:40
…and I ask myself, are these people, the ones drawn in by the cash prizes going to be the ones to spend out the money on the game? And/or are we the players, the fans, going to spend over 10K a month to cover this cost and however much it takes to employ devs etc to balance out the massive spending?!



And are they going to stick around long term and get into the backstory, the lore, the history behind the maps, classes and characters? I highly doubt it. Some maybe...but the mass majority? There is absolutely no way...

lucinvampire
7th Aug 2015, 09:57
And are they going to stick around long term and get into the backstory, the lore, the history behind the maps, classes and characters? I highly doubt it. Some maybe...but the mass majority? There is absolutely no way...

For a moment there I wasn’t going to bash the LoK horse, I was trying to approach it from the logical, real world money publisher point of view.

…but yeah, probably about 95% of them would have never heard of LoK and wouldn’t give a damn about lore or looking into it.

FireWorks_
7th Aug 2015, 10:03
I just want to point out I'm not an ESL player, I never was and probably never will be, but if you really have to give that money away to someone, at least redirect most of it there. Why? Because, from my limited understanding, it's one of the very few things in Nosgoth close to actually working.

You have to show and publicize the best of your product, while you fix and improve the rest in backstage, not the other way round.


Even if your strategy works and you attract 100k new players for ranked (which is not gonna happen, because most magazines have basically blacklisted the game, probably because most of their users don't care and the rest attacks it for "old LoK" random fanboyism or whatever), most of those people will leave out of frustration in a couple of weeks at best (because they were there for the money alone, but who wants or can endure it when it's 80% grinding, 10% luck and only 10% actual skill, and everybody around you constantly leaves and insults you?).

So what did you get? You artificially inflated your player numbers for a little while, but that's not gonna last. You know that. Nosgoth was downloaded 1 million times when Open Beta begun, now it's played by 1.5k people at peak times. That means a LOT of people gave it a chance, but eventually gave up. You have to try and keep as many people as possible, not bribe more to get in until they inevitably leaves again for the same reasons everyone else did.


Guys, you're completely losing it. Hands on heart, I don't hold any anger or grudge towards you, but you're **** it up more and more with time passing, when, again, it should be the other way round. People expects the game to get better, not staying the same after a year in Beta, or even becoming arguably worse. That's why people leave and stop playing, or never begin at all.

Nosgoth is a shadow of what it was in Closed Alpha and Closed Beta; it did have issues back then, but they were limited, and it didn't seem anything impossible to fix with a bit of work. The game on a grand scale worked great, that's what mattered.

Now it's almost impossible to have a decent, competent match unless you are in a pre-made and randomly happen to play against another pre-made. Of course if there are a lot of clueless players it's not the developer's fault, but the fact you will play with literally anybody all the time, no matter how good you/they are and what you/they did, made a lot of people who actually try and hope in a fair challenge leave, and the rest went into pre-mades. I have about 20 people in my Steam friend list, all of which played the game A LOT in Alpha and Closed Beta, they were at least competent, polite and cool guys to be around with; now maybe one or two of them, once a month, timidly open the game, then close it pretty quickly. And I found myself doing the exact same thing.

After a year or so in this state, with the quality of matches going down and the technical situation getting not all that better overall, then you start coming out with bizarre ideas and changes nobody asked for - of which this is the absolute apex. A huge portion of users are openly opposing them, and EVERYBODY you could ever ask says the issues they have with the game are completely different and they would rather you work on those (crashes, lag, matchmaking, poor performance, bugs etc.).



If you keep going down this route, things will only get worse. Work on the REAL ISSUES with your game, EVERYBODY sees and denounces them, and EVERYBODY is pissed off at best and has already left at worst.

QFT

Great read. Hope the right people at the switches will read, understand and act after it.

Vampmaster
7th Aug 2015, 10:08
LOFO1993@ I think you’ve truly hit the nail on the head there (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160032&page=4&p=2146261#post2146261)!

When I first heard this I was like “ah oooookkkkk then…” after thinking about it the last few days I still think it’s barking, I can understand the logic but I can’t…my brain it’s melted.

I understand it’s a separate pool of money from the actual game development, which my argument of spend the money on the game fixes and in game stuff will be invalid…even though I think for now the game needs to be fixed and then draw people in with shiny.

Personally I think if they want to give a cash prize at first start small, the top 3 players get a prize and the rest get skins/chests and in game related stuff, spending out like 1.5K a month rather than this crazy amount.

…and I ask myself, are these people, the ones drawn in by the cash prizes going to be the ones to spend out the money on the game? And/or are we the players, the fans, going to spend over 10K a month to cover this cost and however much it takes to employ devs etc to balance out the massive spending?! I’m really hoping this won’t bankrupt the game.

I think the idea might be to use the big rewards as a sort of advertisement to people who only pay attention when there's cash OR names of famous players associated. They might be trying to get endorsement from from the types who make a living from their winnings. Hypothetically, someone who hasn't played before, but is playing for cash might pay for the definitive pack and upgrades.

@Audhumbla, @Psyonix_Ryan, @Saikocat, is this the sort of thing you're aiming for? Is Nosgoth doing well enough that the income supports both the development and the prizes? Lucinvampire makes a good point about the ones spending the money at the moment not being the ones who are in it for the cash. Maybe it would be better to charge a small fee to be eligible for the big cash prizes and if you don't want to pay, you still see your rank and what you would have won had you paid it.

I couldn't possibly say whether this would work, because I don't really know anything about how big that sort of gaming community is, but my personal reasons for playing were initially the connections to the Legacy of Kain series (which Nosgoth needs much more of, IMO) and later on because I've enjoyed playing with my friends. Cash prizes and famous names have had very little to do with it.

People who do play for prizes are very likely to want a more direct relationship between performance and rank and I think the current system is designed to give everybody a change at getting something, so how about this:
Chances of getting things like keys and skins remain dependent on things like how often you play, whether you beat your own record, whether you exceeded your predicted score etc, but then your actual rank and chance of cash prizes depends purely on your performance as many people have been demanding.

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 10:13
I couldn't possibly say whether this would work, because I don't really know anything about how big that sort of gaming community is, but my personal reasons for playing were initially the connections to the Legacy of Kain series (which Nosgoth needs much more of, IMO) and later on because I've enjoyed playing with my friends. Cash prizes and famous names have had very little to do with it.


Ditto and probably for...quite a bit of the fanbase here, I hesitate to put a number to it but I feel pretty confident in saying that most of the fanbase was made up of such people but those people are currently being hugely neglected, to be thrown a bone every so often while the focus is on trying to attract players who wouldn't stick around for very long no matter what they are promised

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 12:20
For a moment there I wasn’t going to bash the LoK horse, I was trying to approach it from the logical, real world money publisher point of view.

…but yeah, probably about 95% of them would have never heard of LoK and wouldn’t give a damn about lore or looking into it.

I have heard of LoK and played some of the later ones, but I don't care about the lore. I couldn't care less to be honest.
I play this game because it fosters a great competitive setting - at least until now.


Also, I am happy to report that after M O N T H S of not seeing a single hacker ingame, today we finally found our first speedhacker since Mid-February. While it could be coincidence, I find this highly unlikely. People are probably just trying out their hacks early to get ready for October.

xeno2k
7th Aug 2015, 12:45
Yes pour more money into ESL and make it disappear :wave: I've been playing ESL since May and never got any of my winnings even after repeatedly contacting the ESL admins. First it was a month later, then two months later, and now it's been 3 months. Must be hard transferring money to a paypal account within a respectable time-lapse. Yeah ESL-wire is great, the format is decent, it gives us a competitive touch, but it's definitely not rewarding. I'm surprised zenith can pay their monthly bills by these irregular payments. Although half of you have no clue what you're talking about or simply have way too high expectations of Psyonix, I have to agree to a certain extent.

Honestly I don't see the point in trying to convince the developers and going into an in-depth discussion about what's right or wrong. If the company makes the same mistakes time after time then it's unenviable to conclude they don't know what to do with competitive games. We're not here to guide the developers or tell them what to do. We're far beyond giving ''feedback'' to them.

In all fairness, if they don't change the league system or the rewards we're getting out of it, I wouldn't care too much. When I duoqueue with my friend I don't have to nolife the game to be able to get some money out of it, people with double the amount of time spent on league have half my points. I think we're passed the point of where we can say that this game has potential. How long has it been in beta for? How many bugs/glitches occured and have been fixed? How much progress did they make in the competitive scene? How large is the playerbase and how many new people (that actually stayed) have they attracted within the last few months?

It's ok. There's better days ahead of us. :thumb:

Zombiekatze
7th Aug 2015, 12:49
While I am a LoK lore nut - what kept me with the game was the gameplay obviously. You don't spend hundreds of hours in a competetive multiplayer game for the lore.

I also have to add that the ESL scene actually helped to further tie myself to the game, despite not participating in ESL, they helped me improve my own playstyle, since it was there where I saw how this game can actually be played in a team-based environment - where it belongs.

Please do not neglect the people, that are actually able to show what the game is capable of.

Burial_Ground
7th Aug 2015, 14:28
I started a year ago, 1,449 hrs playtime on record, and so far i haven't played in the esl.
For about 10 months a handful of teams was able to grab cash and thousands of runes.
But it were always the same faces and the group was small.
The comments about solo or regular players that i read here are kinda denigrating i think.
Most players don't play in premades and stack and stomp day in day out, so i think its nice
that other players have a chance now to receive some prizes for all their time and dedication they put
into this great game.
In fact the majority of the nosgoth players doesn't play on esl, thats about 95% i guess, correct me if i'm wrong.
Some players make it sound like a small group of about 30 players is the base of nosgoth and all the thousands others are hackers, cheaters, losers or not competive enough to get a good game going.
ESL players only have to show up for a couple of matches a week and can win hundreds of dollars and thousands of runestones. A small esl group can divide about 5000€ per month so 10k leaguemoney for the rest of the community is not much compared to that. Keep in mind that all the esl players can also play in leagues so they could get double prizemoney.
Leagues are still beta and the start was a bit messy maybe, but without premades/stackers and a good mixture of regulars, newcomers, and some pro's you'll get better games in the end.
I can understand that some esl teams like their monopolistic position and like to grab all prizes, hence all the hard words here. You have to remember that this a free to play game, so you cannot ignore a large community. Also nobody can enforce decisions that involve prizemoney with comments from regulars.
In my opinion it would be kinda odd that even more prizes should go to a small niche group in the esl
with the same winners every week.
I think we should be happy with all the goodies we can get for playing.
This raises a question: would you still play if there weren't any cash prizes but only cosmetics or even just honour ?
My answer would be yes!

cya,

distortnl

uNborn-
7th Aug 2015, 15:14
I started a year ago, 1,449 hrs playtime on record, and so far i haven't played in the esl.
For about 10 months a handful of teams was able to grab cash and thousands of runes.
But it were always the same faces and the group was small.
The comments about solo or regular players that i read here are kinda denigrating i think.
Most players don't play in premades and stack and stomp day in day out, so i think its nice
that other players have a chance now to receive some prizes for all their time and dedication they put
into this great game.
In fact the majority of the nosgoth players doesn't play on esl, thats about 95% i guess, correct me if i'm wrong.
Some players make it sound like a small group of about 30 players is the base of nosgoth and all the thousands others are hackers, cheaters, losers or not competive enough to get a good game going.
ESL players only have to show up for a couple of matches a week and can win hundreds of dollars and thousands of runestones. A small esl group can divide about 5000€ per month so 10k leaguemoney for the rest of the community is not much compared to that. Keep in mind that all the esl players can also play in leagues so they could get double prizemoney.
Leagues are still beta and the start was a bit messy maybe, but without premades/stackers and a good mixture of regulars, newcomers, and some pro's you'll get better games in the end.
I can understand that some esl teams like their monopolistic position and like to grab all prizes, hence all the hard words here. You have to remember that this a free to play game, so you cannot ignore a large community. Also nobody can enforce decisions that involve prizemoney with comments from regulars.
In my opinion it would be kinda odd that even more prizes should go to a small niche group in the esl
with the same winners every week.
I think we should be happy with all the goodies we can get for playing.
This raises a question: would you still play if there weren't any cash prizes but only cosmetics or even just honour ?
My answer would be yes!

cya,

distortnl

Except this isn't the case at all. Pub players 4 stack constantly. They have been doing it since the begining. They don't sign up for ESL for the same reason they leave lobbies when they see ESL players solo queuing and that reason is that after 1k plus hours of stomping as a 4 stack they don't want to lose to one or two ESL players playing with randoms. That instant gratification that they had while dominating becomes not worth it at that point.

I remember making posts a long time ago asking the community to start forming teams and to sign up for ESL. As soon as the region lock was in place it shattered what was already a small community. For awhile there we were the only NA team showing up... but yet if I logged on public matches there would be at least 15-20 4 stack premade's pubstomping their way to self glorification daily. Why not form a team with friends and learn the competitive side of this game?

I'm confused to why you think you deserve money for simply putting in the hours in a league that detracts itself from the core gameplay that this game is based on(teamwork). Do you feel you need to be compensated for playing ranked public matches? or you deserve to compensated? Prizes like runestones and such can and should be awarded to solo league matches. But I fail to see how that much money( far more than ESL) is being dumped into this landfill in its current state.

This whole fiasco is just confusing. I can't remember a fps game that literally paid its "top 100" grinder players to keep playing to artificially boost is playerbase for as long as the money lasts.

GenFeelGood
7th Aug 2015, 15:53
What? This is a multiplayer game. They can't even get that to work, now you want them to basically make an entire game within a game? Hell no!

Oh come on, I know you aren't among LoK fans who came to play because of this game's connection to it; but there are a lot of us here and many of us are hoping it will someday have game modes that satisfies what we loved about the series.

Vampmaster
7th Aug 2015, 16:20
Oh come on, I know you aren't among LoK fans who came to play because of this game's connection to it; but there are a lot of us here and many of us are hoping it will someday have game modes that satisfies what we loved about the series.

And it could inspire plenty of competitive modes. I've seen lots of multiplayer games that have modes where your team goes against waves of AI and mini-bosses etc. There's still competition, just of a different format, because you could be trying to score higher than your teammates or cooperation when you need to help allies survive. If you let them die, you're stuck by yourself until the end of the round.

GenFeelGood
7th Aug 2015, 16:23
And it could inspire plenty of competitive modes. I've seen lots of multiplayer games that have modes where your team goes against waves of AI and mini-bosses etc. There's still competition, just of a different format, because you could be trying to score higher than your teammates or cooperation when you need to help allies survive. If you let them die, you're stuck by yourself until the end of the round.

^^This right here, this is among the type of modes I am hoping for.

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 16:43
Oh come on, I know you aren't among LoK fans who came to play because of this game's connection to it; but there are a lot of us here and many of us are hoping it will someday have game modes that satisfies what we loved about the series.

There might be a lot of you there, but my point is, this isnt a story driven game. This is a multiplayer game. If they flesh out the lore on the side, great, I don't care; but if the gameplay sucks, the matchmaking sucks and the servers suck, all the lore in the world cannot weigh against it.

What you are saying sounds like this to me:
"I don't like Nosgoth, but I put up with it in hopes i might get some lore out of it"
This is not a smart position. If you want a true LoK game focussed on Lore, go bug SE about it. This is not the place to argue for it, since Psyonix is not the rights holder.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 16:59
Except this isn't the case at all. Pub players 4 stack constantly. They have been doing it since the begining. They don't sign up for ESL for the same reason they leave lobbies when they see ESL players solo queuing and that reason is that after 1k plus hours of stomping as a 4 stack they don't want to lose to one or two ESL players playing with randoms. That instant gratification that they had while dominating becomes not worth it at that point.

I remember making posts a long time ago asking the community to start forming teams and to sign up for ESL. As soon as the region lock was in place it shattered what was already a small community. For awhile there we were the only NA team showing up... but yet if I logged on public matches there would be at least 15-20 4 stack premade's pubstomping their way to self glorification daily. Why not form a team with friends and learn the competitive side of this game?

I'm confused to why you think you deserve money for simply putting in the hours in a league that detracts itself from the core gameplay that this game is based on(teamwork). Do you feel you need to be compensated for playing ranked public matches? or you deserve to compensated? Prizes like runestones and such can and should be awarded to solo league matches. But I fail to see how that much money( far more than ESL) is being dumped into this landfill in its current state.

This whole fiasco is just confusing. I can't remember a fps game that literally paid its "top 100" grinder players to keep playing to artificially boost is playerbase for as long as the money lasts.

Aight here we go...
i totally disagree, but let me explain why.

I started the game in January, playing hardcore, then I stopped.
Now since a few days before leagues released I started again, cuz I left my game and am thinking about making it Nosgoth.
I never played any shooting games, maybe I rent one once a year and played for a weekend..but that´s it.
But I know gaming communities and companies since a longer time now...always watching them from the side...just talking if I really get mad or I feel like I really have to talk...which usually in many years was pretty rare.
Here I feel like talking all day....like talking to a wall, when I am trying to talk to devs (but idk what they will do)...
but same as that it feels like the same about some ppl in this community.

---

I am happy that this distort guy had the courage to say what I am sure...yes...the majority in this game is thinking.
You gotta know..he said DistortNL, which then will mean Netherlands..so eu.

back to me...so I have a bit above 600 h now...100-200 afk hours I think.
I am eternal 14 I think...just because of activity..yes sure ( i am a noob).
I am almost sure, that many ppl at the moment aren´t even able to get up there, cuz they still have issues with crashes.
Day one and two I had issues with crashes aswell...so I lost around nearly 200points I think...and 20 double counted lost games, because of the crashes.

So...let me open the game and check now..my score is 80-153...take these 20 lost games away...that would look pretty good for a newbie then I would say.
Lets talk about the games I won...and I will be honest with you guys...as I am able to reflect myself, which I feel like many ppl are not in here.
10% of the games I was just bad and got kinda carried...yep...only 10%.
70% of the games I was kinda bringing a average performance compared to my team.
20% of the games I owned and smashed these b.
my performance is kinda not constant still.

Why am I telling you that?
Well...because I think exactly the same thing of what I see playing since leagues realesed and hardcore...I see really just a very few ppl that are kinda pro.
I am sorry, I even feel like the most of the esl players aren´t even much better then myself as I play a game kinda alright.

I am pretty sure that the majority atm are playing alone...and don´t get my wrong here...yes ofc this is a teambased game..and as I said..at the end it should go to the players which are in teams...but how many real pro players are they?Like 20 or what???

----

I tried to watch esl on twitch to get better...I check every day...I almost never see anything about it....each weekend with a short warmup before I see.
How much time do they put into practice...it seems like it´s not really a lot.
It seems like the pro players are just pro and stomp ppl like me while they sleep.

---

Another thing I don´t understand is why are they just such a few...are the pricepools to low?
yes?!...okay but if so...why don´t other pro players just get in here and practice a bit and play esl aswell...as is seems that there aren´t too much of them anyways.
I´m sorry, I don´t get it...

Maybe it has something to do with audience...that´s what I would think...maybe is just that many players just got bored somehow and are doing something else...or got mad at the game and went...and others for what ever reason.
What this game really needs is more audience and more players aswell.
So lets be honest here...I watched some esl streams...not many and not in the too far past...
who is watching it...seemed like mostly esl players themselfes.

Another thing...how much money have they invested into the game?
I insvested like 60-100 euros in the game.
I like skins..I wanted to open some boxes...all that kinda stuff...
I think many of them just bought their stuff with runestones in this ftp game.

How do you want to grow nosgoth?
You want bigger price pools in the esl...
are you sure that then the esl will get more pro players and more audience of it.... just because the pricepools are bigger?
I am not sure...I think yes ofc...some more teams will be here...and with them more audience yes...but how many will they be?
If I think about maketing...I must totally agree that if I get them right at this point and the things the community is crying about, yes long enough , will follow...this is a way much better way to go.
To first of all try to bring fresh blood in here, and then they might also be intrested in watching esl, same as with me.
And the moment to do wasn´t that bad at all..it was bad in our eyes..cuz they should get other things done first, yes ofc.
But it was good advertisement, every "company"would do it like that.
See it from a perspective of someone who hasn´t played nosgoth yet ...
he would think wow cool price pools for a game with a solo mode...and it has esl aswell...cool cool.
So he will download this ftp game...and the first thing he will see as he checks the tab of leagues is that there are 5500 players playing...so well...whoever he is...lets sa he´s pretty good...he willl think..well i can do that.
He will be mad, cuz he will crash...
he will know that it is BETA...he will not know since when, as we do.
He might search the forums and find a lot of salty ppl..telling him whats up.
Or he willl just open twitch and find a lot of salty ppl, with salty titles about nosgoth.
What do they do to grow nosgoth...or do they just think about themselfes all day?

I don´t even care about the pricepool in leagues..cuz yes the pro players will get it anyways...nice munchi munchi...yum yum.
They just have to change a few things and it will be fine...like activity shouldn´t help too much and all that stuff.
And then...if you get enough newbies....and they are just a little bit like me...they will buy cool skins and open some boxes.
And then maybe you can, as esl players would say "throw money out the window" giving it to esl players which are like a handful atm....and have like if it comes really high 100 viewers for their games.

So here it is...have a nice day esl-boyz...
and no I am not attacking you guys...I think some are petty cool..
but I really don´t understand which way you want to go here.

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 17:05
Dude. Wall of text? Condense it down to 2 paragraphs, this topic is hard enough to read up upon as it is.

GenFeelGood
7th Aug 2015, 17:05
There might be a lot of you there, but my point is, this isnt a story driven game. This is a multiplayer game. If they flesh out the lore on the side, great, I don't care; but if the gameplay sucks, the matchmaking sucks and the servers suck, all the lore in the world cannot weigh against it.

I agree with you on this



What you are saying sounds like this to me:
"I don't like Nosgoth, but I put up with it in hopes i might get some lore out of it"
This is not a smart position. If you want a true LoK game focussed on Lore, go bug SE about it. This is not the place to argue for it, since Psyonix is not the rights holder.

I never said I hated this game. I did come here back in alpha because I wanted to see what this was all about because it involved my favorite game series. I wouldn't have played this long, been this active in the forum for so long, or put as much money into the game as I have if I hated it. Yes it is a multiplayer and mechanics should always come first; but that doesn't mean there isn't room for more.

LOFO1993
7th Aug 2015, 17:07
snip

I don't think you understand what most people wrote in the past pages.

The issue is not that ESL needs more money. The issue is the decision to spend a decent amount of cash in what frankly seems to be the stupidest and less beneficial use you can make of it.


I don't want more money given to ESL, like a very good chunk of the people who wrote in this thread. I want the game to freaking work, so it's more enjoyable, so more people play it, so the playerbase increases. Then comes pro-gaming, then may come big prizes.

Tossing money around will do NOTHING in the long term. This game doesn't need more "attention". It had quite a lot of attention in the past year, it was downloaded by more than 1 million people in the first week or something; but it wasted almost all of it with server issues, performance problems, bugs that never get fixed and poor choices in the matchmaking compartment.

If you get more "attention" without working on what causes the leak in the first place, you accomplish nothing.

Vampmaster
7th Aug 2015, 17:09
There might be a lot of you there, but my point is, this isnt a story driven game. This is a multiplayer game. If they flesh out the lore on the side, great, I don't care; but if the gameplay sucks, the matchmaking sucks and the servers suck, all the lore in the world cannot weigh against it.

What you are saying sounds like this to me:
"I don't like Nosgoth, but I put up with it in hopes i might get some lore out of it"
This is not a smart position. If you want a true LoK game focussed on Lore, go bug SE about it. This is not the place to argue for it, since Psyonix is not the rights holder.

There's nothing about lore that precludes gameplay and I don't think anyone's suggesting much more than a bit of a motive for the characters in the battle and couple of seconds of banter at the start/end of a match or round. Also, liking the little bit of lore that the game does have doesn't mean a player won't try out the regular modes or be any good at them.

Different people have different reasons to play, but at the end of the day, more people playing means a better selection of players to be matched against.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 17:23
I don't think you understand what most people wrote in the past pages.

The issue is not that ESL needs more money. The issue is the decision to spend a decent amount of cash in what frankly seems to be the stupidest and less beneficial use you can make of it.


I don't want more money given to ESL, like a very good chunk of the people who wrote in this thread people. I want the game to freaking work, so it's more enjoyable, so more people play it, so the playerbase increases. Then comes pro-gaming, then may come big prizes.

Tossing money around will do NOTHING in the long term. This game doesn't need more "attention". It had quite a lot of attention in the past year, it was downloaded by more than 1 million people in the first week or something; but it wasted almost all of it with server issues, performance problems, bugs that never get fixed and poor choices in the matchmaking compartment.

If you get more "attention" without working on what causes the leak in the first place, you accomplish nothing.

Yes I agree..and I have said that too...
but it´s about the way they want to go...and I pretty sure I understood what many are saying.
But as I already said, we don´t know what they will do.
All of us will be out if they don´t fix things in the near future....I think they know that now..and I think they also work on that.
Otherwise we all know what will happen.

I know that 1.million downloads were done...and I see what is left.
The issues in this game must not have anything to do with atvertising, as I said aswell.

So I think you havn´t read it correctly.
But still thank you for your reply...at the end I am here to discuss this, to get this clear.

LOFO1993
7th Aug 2015, 17:35
But as I already said, we don´t know what they will do.
All of us will be out if they don´t fix things in the near future....I think they know that now..and I think they also work on that.
Otherwise we all know what will happen.

I really wouldn't be so sure about this, and that's why most people are worried or pissed. The bugfixing for this game has been abysmal for the last year at least. Even the smallest issue takes months to be fixed, new ones pop out unexpectedly and most seem to be ignored completely.


This is a professional game made by a professional studio, and it shows, but the bugfixing is not done at a professional level, neither for quantity (there are still bugs and glitches I recall seing in the Alpha) nor for quality (issues are fixed in the patch notes but not in reality, the stupidest of problems are introduces by new patches etc.).

This is one of the biggest and most evident problems since forever... but things never changed. We're still there, even in the very mode they are advertising: systematic freezes, intrinsic issues with the timezones (US play all day, EU half day, Australia even less), people crashing, games freezing and so on and so forth.


I, and I believe a lot of other people, are shocked because they are doing what is a desperate move before they even tried the most basic approach they should have had since the first day: fixing the evident issues with the game and making it a better experience. That seems just out of question, and it's insane.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 17:47
Nope...I am not sure about that...that´s correct.
But that is another thing and I am totally with you on that one.

This thread is about the price money...and I saw a lot of talking about it in solo compared to team-based/esl.
Which I also totally agree with at the end.
But you have to see, and as I said, try to look from another perspective...from this point on..where do you want to put the money for the next time to grow between these two.

LOFO1993
7th Aug 2015, 18:00
Nope...I am not sure about that...that´s correct.
But that is another thing and I am totally with you on that one.

This thread is about the price money...and I saw a lot of talking about it in solo compared to team-based/esl.
Which I also totally agree with at the end.
But you have to see, and as I said, try to look from another perspective...from this point on..where do you want to put the money for the next time to grow between these two.

I want it put in neither. I already suggested they should hire an additional QA support team at least for month or two, and that would be its best use, in my modest opinion.

I also think, if we really have to give the money to players anyway, that ESL is at least a strictly contolled environment (no incentive to cheaters) that can best portray the team-based aspects of the game (calling in potential pro-gamers, who certainly don't want to get into Nosgoth to stomp random dudes in a free queue while hoping they aren't put along a total incompetent; or rather, hope the matchmaking fails at that, because that's exactly the outcome intended with MMR) and be a decent show for the public (increase in general popularity of the game and possibly playerbase).


This is a team-based game, team-based playing should be incentivized. Solo queues are awesome, but they will produce little more than a small number of professional grinders (who do that for the money, so they will never spend in the game more money that they are given by it) and a lot of frustration for everyone else (everybody accuses everybody, cheaters, people leaving all the time, this sort of stuff that Nosgoth already has on its own, but that with real money - and a lot of it - at the stake can and is only getting worse).

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 18:15
I want it put in neither. I already suggested they should hire an additional QA support team at least for month or two, and that would be its best use, in my modest opinion.

I also think, if we really have to give the money to players anyway, that ESL is at least a strictly contolled environment (no incentive to cheaters) that can best portray the team-based aspects of the game (calling in potential pro-gamers, who certainly don't want to get into Nosgoth to stomp random dudes in a free queue while hoping they aren't put along a total incompetent; or rather, hope the matchmaking fails at that, because that's exactly the outcome intended with MMR) and be a decent show for the public (increase in general popularity of the game and possibly playerbase).


This is a team-based game, team-based playing should be incentivized. Solo queues are awesome, but they will produce little more than a small number of professional grinders (who do that for the money, so they will never spend in the game more money that they are given by it) and a lot of frustration for everyone else (everybody accuses everybody, cheaters, people leaving all the time, this sort of stuff that Nosgoth already has on its own, but that with real money - and a lot of it - at the stake can and is only getting worse).

I read that.
I think it as a good idea...but idk if that will bring back all the ppl...but well... maybe.
At this point as we talk...maybe you should first of all get clear what my point is, maybe you should read all I have postet so far to see how I think( man...I wouldn´t do that ;) ).
And then you will see that I wasn´t responding to your post.

I never said that the money shouldn´t go to esl players...it is about how they get there, to provide that they can keep it up for some time.
Also I never said "woohoo" give money to solo leagues....I said that it is a better advertisement to go this way "at the moment".

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 18:21
But you have to see, and as I said, try to look from another perspective...from this point on..where do you want to put the money for the next time to grow between these two.

Its very simple:

Barring all the possible changes to ranked (we take it as it is NOW);
currently you get high in ranked by playing lots, its advantageous to be good and win, sure, but pure grind gets the job done as well!
ESL takes lots of time, team strategy and practice. It is hard enough right now to find other teams to scrim against. Imagine if everyone is just playing ranked to push their scores!
Add to that that teams like mine, who just come short of earning some money in ESL might stop bothering alltogether and just focus on getting their League Rank as high as possible.

In the end, we will have what we had in at the end of Closed Beta: 2 Teams sign up for ESL.
This is why this decision is bad for ESL.

And there are still many other arguments throughout this thread why it is bad on its own right, too!

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 18:25
I have heard of LoK and played some of the later ones, but I don't care about the lore. I couldn't care less to be honest.
I play this game because it fosters a great competitive setting - at least until now..

And given Nosgoth's mission statement to those who do were to get new fans invested in some vague way and that I have seen this attitude reflected in a lot of the players, this is a massive problem.

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 18:43
And given Nosgoth's mission statement to those who do were to get new fans invested in some vague way and that I have seen this attitude reflected in a lot of the players, this is a massive problem.

What is a problem? That the people DO or DON'T care about the lore?
In case I understood you right, why is it so *bad* not to care about the lore? It gives you no advantage ingame, and other competitive titles are not popular coz of their rich backstory.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 18:55
Its very simple:

Barring all the possible changes to ranked (we take it as it is NOW);
currently you get high in ranked by playing lots, its advantageous to be good and win, sure, but pure grind gets the job done as well!
ESL takes lots of time, team strategy and practice. It is hard enough right now to find other teams to scrim against. Imagine if everyone is just playing ranked to push their scores!
Add to that that teams like mine, who just come short of earning some money in ESL might stop bothering alltogether and just focus on getting their League Rank as high as possible.

In the end, we will have what we had in at the end of Closed Beta: 2 Teams sign up for ESL.
This is why this decision is bad for ESL.

And there are still many other arguments throughout this thread why it is bad on its own right, too!

ofc it is bad for the esl...and i am sorry about that.
but who cares about the esl atm.
I do a bit...but I don´t see a lot of other ppl who are not playing there.
So how do you wanna get there?
I´m sorry I don´t see any good arguments that won´t lead to single persons interests atm.
And I also do not want to repeat myself about things I agree to and have already said ( i don´t mean you..I mean everything I have to respond to).

CountEyokir
7th Aug 2015, 19:15
What is a problem? That the people DO or DON'T care about the lore?
In case I understood you right, why is it so *bad* not to care about the lore? It gives you no advantage ingame, and other competitive titles are not popular coz of their rich backstory.
Nosgoth's mission statement was when it was sold to us that it would attract new fans into the immersive lore it was based on. Its the reason it exists in the eyes of the LoK community

Zombiekatze
7th Aug 2015, 19:54
Nosgoth's mission statement was when it was sold to us that it would attract new fans into the immersive lore it was based on. Its the reason it exists in the eyes of the LoK community

No multiplayer game will survive just because people are interested in the story. It is awesome to have lore and background for the people who care about it. And if someone thinks that the lore sounds interesting then they will look into it, if not, they won't - simple as that.

Lord_Aevum
7th Aug 2015, 20:16
No multiplayer game will survive just because people are interested in the story. It is awesome to have lore and background for the people who care about it. And if someone thinks that the lore sounds interesting then they will look into it, if not, they won't - simple as that.

There is always the alternative thesis: no game assigned to the LoK IP will survive unless people are interested in the story. I would say both sentiments are valid and widespread, unfortunately leaving this game in the realm of the paradoxical to an extent.

GenFeelGood
7th Aug 2015, 20:24
Gameplay or Lore, my view is that Nosgoth is striving to achieve a balance between both, that one doesn't trump the other in priority. You may care nothing for lore and live for the gameplay as it progresses, while others may care about the lore and learning the story of this era as it moves forward with the new maps and classes. The point is, there is certainly enough room to please both sides without one being sacrificed in favor of the other.

Vampmaster
7th Aug 2015, 20:44
No multiplayer game will survive just because people are interested in the story. It is awesome to have lore and background for the people who care about it. And if someone thinks that the lore sounds interesting then they will look into it, if not, they won't - simple as that.

People can't come for the lore and stay for the gameplay? The earliest players from alpha have done that.

Da_Wolv
7th Aug 2015, 21:02
Back to topic. Just had my first cheater in ranked!

This is off to a terrific start! Should I just put in a formal support ticket and we get this fixed next month?

Zombiekatze
7th Aug 2015, 21:05
People can't come for the lore and stay for the gameplay? The earliest players from alpha have done that.

That's true too, also why I started playing, gotta admit I was one of the nagging long-time fans back then. And now I'm so glad we got more background lore for all the clans and even beyond. :)

Just saying that the gameplay part is obviously the main reason why I kept actually playing. The lore is also a big reason >for me<. But that doesn't apply to everyone, that's all I'm saying.

WWidow
7th Aug 2015, 21:35
This thread isn't about the lore, it's about the latest announcement. And the money for ranked does not change anything about the lore...

BTW: I did not care about the lore, i knew there was a legacy of kain and many of my friends played it, but i didn't. But since i play nosgoth i will play them, as soon as the fan made remake is finished, because i read the story and find it interessting.
EDIT: But i did not start to play nosgoth cause of the LoK lore (i read it afterwards) i started to play nosgoth because i liked the idea of an asymetrical competitive "shooter" that is not only about aiming like quake or so.

But a fact is that dead sun was cancelled and they made nosgoth out of it, so i don' think they should return to the lore. Maybe if nosgoth gets enough players who are interessted in the lore they will make another LoK game, but nosgoth should stay (or become) a competitive multiplayer game. So no lore needed.

Back2topic:
And again it was said "the esl players want to have more money so they can earn more money". Which esl player said this?
All we want is to improve the esl (I repeat: which is the only place to do some serious 4v4 matches), so there will be more teams. This does not mean they should put all the money in the esl, but the reward should be related to required work and skill.

And that you don't see esl players stream all the time does not mean they spend no time for practice or else. It's more like, since the performance of nosgoth is unbelieveable bad, only a few people are able to stream while playin without incredible fps loss. And even if i could stream while playin i don't think i would do while scrimming, because i can't concentrate on the game and on the chat at the same time. So saying "esl players are doing nothing because they are not streaming" is a retarded statement.

And someone said esl players could make 5k $ per month...what?! how do you do this?! Did you think about the fact, that a team has at least 4 players?

To end this esl vs not-esl ****:
Yea, the most people responding here are esl players. and what? did someone take a look into the viewerlist when this great announcement was streamed? Right, 95% of the viewers were esl players. all the others that are sooo interessted in this game did not even watch the stream. This does not need to mean anything but in my opinion it shows how dedicated to this game all the other players are.

And i don't think this thread would be so long, if the money would be put into a WORKING 4v4 ranked system...

kLauE187
7th Aug 2015, 21:47
Back to topic. Just had my first cheater in ranked!

This is off to a terrific start! Should I just put in a formal support ticket and we get this fixed next month?

played against one too. luckily we started human and rekt them 30-4. as tyrant he charged through me when i rolled in the perfect moment just to turn 360° after 0,2s and charge through me again. and as human 100% accurancy why not.

when they add money in october a lot of cheater will start to play ranked too. i wonder how they wanna fix this problem or if they just donate money to blatant cheater after the end of month.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 21:57
This thread isn't about the lore, it's about the latest announcement. And the money for ranked does not change anything about the lore...

BTW: I did not care about the lore, i knew there was a legacy of kain and many of my friends played it, but i didn't. But since i play nosgoth i will play them, as soon as the fan made remake is finished, because i read the story and find it interessting.

But a fact is that dead sun was cancelled and they made nosgoth out of it, so i don' think they should return to the lore. Maybe if nosgoth gets enough players who are interessted in the lore they will make another LoK game, but nosgoth should stay (or become) a competitive multiplayer game. So no lore needed.

Back2topic:
And again it was said "the esl players want to have more money so they can earn more money". Which esl player said this?
All we want is to improve the esl (I repeat: which is the only place to do some serious 4v4 matches), so there will be more teams. This does not mean they should put all the money in the esl, but the reward should be related to required work and skill.

And that you don't see esl players stream all the time does not mean they spend no time for practice or else. It's more like, since the performance of nosgoth is unbelieveable bad, only a few people are able to stream while playin without incredible fps loss. And even if i could stream while playin i don't think i would do while scrimming, because i can't concentrate on the game and on the chat at the same time. So saying "esl players are doing nothing because they are not streaming" is a retarded statement.

And someone said esl players could make 5k $ per month...what?! how do you do this?! Did you think about the fact, that a team has at least 4 players?

To end this esl vs not-esl ****:
Yea, the most people responding here are esl players. and what? did someone take a look into the viewerlist when this great announcement was streamed? Right, 95% of the viewers were esl players. all the others that are sooo interessted in this game did not even watch the stream. This does not need to mean anything but in my opinion it shows how dedicated to this game all the other players are.

And i don't think this thread would be so long, if the money would be put into a WORKING 4v4 ranked system...

Aha okay..so I watched a few min of the stream...but then I wanted to play, so I played.
Yes I think so too, that means nothing, its just who is intrested to get the info of leagues first.
So so much about that.

Well..then tell me..how often do you practice in a team?
I wasn´t saying they do nothing..I was saying they don´t even have to practice a lot..cuz no competition.
So don´t say anything is retarded if you are the one, that misinterpreted things.
I wasn´t saying that because I think the might not practice as team a lot..I said that cuz I was watching it for some time now...not only over streams...
and I know that pro players in other games practice a lot more.
So again...how often do you practice nosgoth teamplay?

As you talk about streams..lets open twitch here...yes half of the streamers are new or just came back.

A few in here were mad about the price pool compared to esl/team...so I am kinda repeating myself again for you.

And again...I totally agree that the money haas to go to teams...
lets just first get them here.
As they havn´t implemented rank 4vs4 yet...for what reason ever...maybe the amount of ppl..dunnno.

HOW DO YOU WANT TO GROW THE GAME AGAIN?...do you think the ppl will just appear out of nowhere, cuz they heard the game is stabil?
It was fine for me all the time, for a beta, till the patch released.
Or don´t you think the chances that more ppl will return if the game grows more and they finally fix stuff?

WWidow
7th Aug 2015, 22:14
I tried to watch esl on twitch to get better...I check every day...I almost never see anything about it....each weekend with a short warmup before I see.
How much time do they put into practice...it seems like it´s not really a lot.
It seems like the pro players are just pro and stomp ppl like me while they sleep.


Sure you said this. You extrapolate from streaming to practising, which has nothing to do with each other. It's like "there is only one show about cars in TV in the week, so it seems there are not many cars on the streets"...

Sry, if i offended you. i did not mean that you are retarded, but this argument is in my opinion.

so you are one of the 5% who watched it, and what is about the rest? no one said that this will be a announcement about leagues, it was only said it's an exciting announcement for all the competitive players.

EDIT:
How often we practise? As often as we can. This means multiple times per week. And it's not only practising, if there's a game we lost badly, then the replay will be watched to find out what went wrong. A lot of time is spent for looking for scrims, thinking about new tactics or positionings. And yea, there are maybe one or two teams which does not practise as often as we do, because they are already on top, but as far as i know, even these teams are scrimming regularly.

Sry, but there are no pro-players in nosgoth. Pro means professional and there is no one who can live from the money in nosgoth.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 22:21
Sure you said this. You extrapolate from streaming to practising, which has nothing to do with each other. It's like "there is only one show about cars in TV in the week, so it seems there are not many cars on the streets"...

Sry, if i offended you. i did not mean that you are retarded, but this argument is in my opinion.

so you are one of the 5% who watched it, and what is about the rest? no one said that this will be a announcement about leagues, it was only said it's an exciting announcement for all the competitive players.

Aight fine...no problem bro.
I´m up for anything if ppl tell me in the right manner.
Surely I don´t know everything about all that.
Mhm yeah...but it was just an example..I have other sources for the way I think aswell.
And you still havn´t told me how much...so I guess I am right about that.

Well the announcement for competitive plyers...who would you think it is.

I´m not here to piss anyone off...I only speak cuz I feel like this game needs help.
Thank you for your reply. ;)

WWidow
7th Aug 2015, 22:26
****, i was too slow. I edited my first post to answer your question

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 22:38
No problem, I gotcha...so sorry then guys..I did not meant to offend any of you.
I would at least think that there are two kinda pro players, cuz I checked one of them and saw he was very good in other games aswell.
So I thought he makes enough...but I cannot know that...so maybe I am wrong.
Yes you are right...a real pro player makes money enough to live on it...but I must say I don´t know how we can really separate that in days of youtube and streams...so whatever.

At the end of the day...I must stick to what I say...cuz I really think you guys will not have a good time in the esl if we don´t get more ppl...in which way ever.

And sry I am german and I don´t like to think all the time...so I just write.

WWidow
7th Aug 2015, 22:46
Yea, you are totally right. We need more players, that is a fact. In 'normal' nosgoth as well as ESL. And we can just hope they will insert or change anything that makes people more interessted in playin as a team of 4 instead of playin solo or as duo.

Endsequenz
7th Aug 2015, 22:59
Yea, you are totally right. We need more players, that is a fact. In 'normal' nosgoth as well as ESL. And we can just hope they will insert or change anything that makes people more interessted in playin as a team of 4 instead of playin solo or as duo.

Totally with ya bro.
Thank you for being so cool.

Yeah I hope many ppl are just wrong and the devs are about to blow bomb after bomb as we are near something we cannot call a test anymore.
I don´t know ...but I hope...its a cool game.

Enough talking for today from me at this point I think...you all know how I think now...maybe I am totally wrong about it...but I hope it has a good end for everyone...especially teams.

ElDongo
9th Aug 2015, 17:52
why hasnt there been a response from psyonix on how they are going to solve all the issues about hackers, people leaving lobbies, vampires camping on roofs, people exploiting the matchmaking system by throwing games for their friends, etc

are they just going to ignore all of this ? there is no way this matchmaking league thing will work

Saikocat
11th Aug 2015, 15:27
We are here and working on resolving issues players are experiencing, and as far as this thread goes we're keeping a close eye on feedback and digesting it all. At the moment I don't have anything new to add just yet beyond stressing the points Ryan already made, but we're here and reading everything.

kLauE187
11th Aug 2015, 19:23
i won every game today and still got 2 looses. no disconnects or anything. weird ****.

Ryugan34
11th Aug 2015, 21:08
i won every game today and still got 2 looses. no disconnects or anything. weird ****.

Those must be from private matches you played during league timeframe (during yesterday's monthly cup i believe) . I had the same problem on a sunday esl .

Talespin
19th Aug 2015, 03:40
Any update on preventing this from happening?

Da_Wolv
19th Aug 2015, 12:02
Any update on preventing this from happening?

Check this (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=160758)
12th Aug 2015, 09:26

As I mentioned in another post elsewhere, we're going over the feedback in the thread there. We'll post a response in there this week, but we need time for everyone to have gone over the feedback and respond accordingly. Bear with us.

I guess they have another 10 hours. At least in Europe anyways.

Arydious
20th Aug 2015, 16:14
I hope this thread is being taken seriously.
I know on the NA side of ESL we have mentioned this ti the ESL admins, although it's out of their hands.

The main points I would like to say, is in no way should this game ever support solo league anything. It's beyond wrong on every level. Nosgoth is a team based game, supporting anything other than pure team based play is wrong.

Let the solo players have a league let them enjoy their win loss, give them keys or exalted chest not real cash.

A full on team ranked can have the cash prizes, team based play is the very essence of Nosgoth. The player who seek out and make teams and perform well should be supported that's how the game is meant to be played. You don't see any of those MOBA's out there paying solo leagues, only the teams get paid.

Again Nosgoth is for teams not solo players. While the game is playable solo, it's not what the game is meant to be.