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SilverBones
11th Aug 2014, 21:05
Balancing teams with passive traits.

So it seems leavers are a pretty big problem. Not only is there no punishment for it, but if you are playing human and suddenly your team is down to three, just having one person less means total decimation, unless you have some pretty skilled players. So what about some dynamic buff that kicks in when the balance is off. Vampires are fairly strong, so a damage buff would be off for them, and the humans have the advantage of range already, so it can’t be something shared.

Here is my suggestion;

In the case where humans are the minority, their health and damage resistance is marginally increased. This would make them a bit tougher and could survive a bit longer in a brawl, but nothing enough to make them walking tanks.

Vampires - when in the minority - have a small innate buff to their ability cooldown times. They are already strong and hardy, but what keeps them alive is generally their crowd control and some disorientation to help close the gap.

This buff would increase based on the number discrepancy. (So 2 people difference would double up the buff.) in cases of 3v3 and 2v2, the buff would be reset and the game would go back to a vanilla power level for both teams.

Of course, leaving should be punished; as is standard practice, but helping those stuck in the game would not go amiss. Hell, you may even want to do a 1v4 Ironman type match where one guy is buffed out to hell and the other team has to take them down.

Again, these buffs may not work as read… although I am down for discussion for alternatives.

Just my twopenneth.

Sanguise23
11th Aug 2014, 21:10
i would rather have buffs, or encouragement to keep players in a match, im not really into punishment for leavers (even though it can really piss me off) not everyone is rage quitting, real life may cause some leaving also crashes once the player base is larger leavers spot will just be filled by new player

Khalith
11th Aug 2014, 21:17
In the Q&A a few days ago (I forgot to put this in that post, may as well post it here) they did say they were working on something for unbalanced teams if someone leaves and things to keep people from leaving in the first place but could not share any details.

SilverBones
11th Aug 2014, 21:23
I guess it would be hard to differentiate leavers from people who genuinely crash. Perhaps applying a penalty to the 'leave game command' and not when a player disconnects from game timeout.

I am not even going to pretend to know anything about Nosgoth's intentions or policy writing, but this post was more a focus on fixing the game when a team is unbalanced.

Psyonix_Corey
11th Aug 2014, 21:26
Buffing disadvantaged teams encourages players to harass weak links until they quit as they would prefer the buff over the extra player.

Not saying we shouldn't do SOMETHING, but it's a really tough problem to solve without creating other issues.

SilverBones
12th Aug 2014, 05:49
Buffing disadvantaged teams encourages players to harass weak links until they quit as they would prefer the buff over the extra player.

Not saying we shouldn't do SOMETHING, but it's a really tough problem to solve without creating other issues.

Well, then you have the balance of the teams. i am not saying it is an easy fix, but if the human team drops just one guy, they are dog food. It's really hard to keep a good game going when there is nothing there to fill that spot.

Chaosstab
8th Apr 2015, 04:31
Since the game is still unstable and crashes still occur, there's virtually no penalty for leaving the game (3 minute downtime is really nothing compared to the wait time in the lobbies anyway). Therefore, this game has tons of leavers when a team start losing. To make matters worse, usually no new player will fill that spot, and the game will carry on as 3v4 or even 2v4.

I'd like to suggest a way to balance the team with less players by giving them higher dmg/hp or reduce cd, proportional to the number of players missing. It would help to even out the disadvantage of having less players in one team. This scaling system is nothing new and is done implemented in many games.

Blackatana1
8th Apr 2015, 15:12
Instead of buffs for the weak team what about a forced sit out option. I imagine it working like this. Team 1 loses a player making it a 3 on 4.

Team 2 player 1 is forced into spectator mode, keeping it a 3 on 3. When a player on team 2 dies. player 1 will spawn (after teh spawning wait period) and the player who died will be in spectator mode... repeat until the match ends or the team 1 gets a fourth player.

The downside is team 2 players might be extra cautious because they don't want to die first and be the person who has to sit out for awhile. Some players may die more than others so they might sit out more often than other members of the team. I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of it rotating down the list regardless of who dies. The only drawback there would be scenarios like this:
player 1 is sitting out. player 3 dies. Player 1 and 3 spawn after the waiting period and player 2 is forced into spectator mode. Player 2 could have been right in the middle of killing a player or some other equally useful and important task.

Hazmire
8th Apr 2015, 15:46
I still fail to see how punishments can be allowed, despite the fact that users are still able to join mid match. The drop-in drop-out matchmaking system seems very casual, and so adding a competitive punishment system doesn't really make much sense.

For instance games like CS;GO have a casual matchmaking system where users can freely leave mid match, but their slots can be filled by other players.
It also has a separate competitive matchmaking system where users receive the punishment for leaving, as this sort of match does not allow mid match joining.

I think a system similar to this would be beneficial, allowing the more dedicated players to have full matches with less rage quitters and leavers. Whilst the more casual players can enjoy quick matches due to the faster matchmaking putting them in matches that are in need of an extra player.

(Also a pause button would be nice along with a reconnect button)

Vampmaster
8th Apr 2015, 15:56
Why not add something more like a comeback opportunity? If the game between the winning and losing team gets too big, then give the buff/debuff to the team that needs it. The tricky bit for the devs would be keeping it from becoming an easy win for the team who are least skilled. That means taking it away before the gap becomes closed completely. Introducing injury time for time spent waiting for replacement players might be something to consider.

Blackatana1
8th Apr 2015, 16:14
Hazmire: your comment is more in line with the thread about the leaver penalty itself. This thread is about ways to keep the game balanced once someone has left regardless of whether they incurred a penalty by doing so.

Vampmaster: I am not sure what to think of your idea although I think that given buffs based solely on the score takes away from the competitive nature of the game. That being said I wouldn't mind if it was an option that people could toggle on and off in their private matches. In regards to the topic of this thread though i dont see how it makes any difference. The team down a player would get a buff, start to come back and then lose the buff and start to go down again. It ultimately would make it a closer score but wouldn't actually ever give the team down a player a chance of winning.

I still think the idea of forcing a player on the team of 4 to sit out on a rotating basis holds water.

Hazmire
8th Apr 2015, 19:03
Hazmire: your comment is more in line with the thread about the leaver penalty itself. This thread is about ways to keep the game balanced once someone has left regardless of whether they incurred a penalty by doing so.

If the matchmaking was redone as I specified I believe the amount of the leavers would be reduced greatly, meaning this problem wouldn't need to be resolved anywhere near as drastically.

As for ways to balance the game when someone has left, why not just add a pause function so the match can be delayed till someone has filled in the slot, or the left person has reconnected. There is no point adding a buff as players will exploit it, whilst others will constantly say the buff is op.

HoopleDoople
9th Apr 2015, 14:44
Buffing disadvantaged teams encourages players to harass weak links until they quit as they would prefer the buff over the extra player.

Not saying we shouldn't do SOMETHING, but it's a really tough problem to solve without creating other issues.

I've said this 100 times before and yet is still needs repeating. When team balance fails, there needs to be an option for the losing team to surrender. While simply having the match end after the surrender is fine, an alternate option is to allow the losing team to gain dynamic buffs. There is no perverse incentive for the buff as to obtain it a team has to concede defeat.

My preferred dynamic buff would a simply max health bonus. Every death by a player on the losing team increases the buff while every kill by a player on the losing team decreases the buff.

The only time a dynamic buff should be considered for a standard match is when matchmaking can't find a team of randoms to matchup against a team of high MMR premades. In this case a team of randoms the game knows won't have a fair chance can be assembled and given dynamic buffs from the start. However, as the max health bonus would start at 0 in the event the randoms were somehow winning they wouldn't receive any buff at all.