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View Full Version : ABILITIES Deceiver - reevaluation of skills?



PencileyePirate
23rd Jul 2015, 23:25
Several questions / points of contention for the devs:


Is Disguise going to be re-evaluated anytime soon? It's basically just invisibility; the disguise portion is useless. I think the idea of a usable disguise is far more interesting than invisibility, and the invisibility tells (footstep sounds, clouds & black specks on a successful hit) tend to only be noticed and countered by the most experienced players.


Any chance of a nerf to Plague? The guaranteed 400 damage from any angle far out-classes less reliable Backstab. (The damage of Backstab drops significantly on a frontal stab and is highly telegraphed: the stabbing sound that preempts the skill is among the loudest and high-pitched of any in the game.)

TL;DR: Disguise invis is insanely easy to play because it gives low risk and high reward, and Plague's reliability usually makes it better than Backstab even for a single target.

Please shorten the invisibility period and prevent the teammate-outline from showing through walls on Disguise, and consider reducing the initial hit damage on Plague. Also please make Backstab slightly less easy to predict by tweaking timing / volume / pitch of the activation sound.

Ghuldarkar
24th Jul 2015, 00:09
Deceiver is always a bit hit and miss for me. Against some people you can get 15 kills and against others you're dead before you're even visible. The biggest problem I have with backstab is that it's often weird about what counts as front and what is back and I'm pretty sure it gives more leniency to higher pings, as I sometimes get full 500 dmg while just shooting at a deceiver when he stabs me (180 twitch shooting).
The biggest problem, thouhg, is that he's completely invisible even for other vampires, often for example resulting in sentinels just grabbing the guy he's trying to infect because the sentinel has no idea where the bloody deceiver is.
I'd also like a small reduction of the initial infect damage, doesn't have to be much, maybe 100, with the DoT kept as it is.

Farnbeak
24th Jul 2015, 07:20
Why call NERF something when you want something else to work? Please nerf Sentinel, nerf Tyrant, now nerf Deceiver thread? :D

PencileyePirate,

1. I agree with you on that one, although your own point seems to have a contradiction. The usable disguise idea is interesting, but you claim that the disguise portion is useless and then say that "the tells tend to only be noticed and countered by the most experienced players", how so?
At my level of play the disguise portion is indeed 95% useless if not harmful, but that should be solved by changing the tells. I think that making deceiver look like he is sprinting (the animation) when he moves forward in human disguise in enough of a change, because the biggest and the worst looking tell you have is a human walking with 1,5x speed with his feet movement not even corresponding to the distance traveled. The other tells like sound, dust clouds, hits on him are totally ok. Deceiver's move speed is still different than a moving human one's, so its enough if we have the proper animation in place.
Removing outline is another tell by itself, i don't think it'll make Disguise more useful :)
But i do agree that deceiver's powers should not mess with the fellow vampires' minds and make him totally invisible for the team. An outline at least would be helpful.

When you offer to nerf inivisibility making its duration shorter, please do remember that its the primary ability of a class and should be compared to the other primary abilities. Deceiver gives up mobility+big damage chunk+disable(pounce)/limited mobility+multiple targets damage+disable(charge)/single target damage+isolation+disable(sentinel)/ranged damage AOE+slow(summoner) for just the opportunity to start the fight up close. Thats literally 0 damage by itself. And also maps are designed with 5 seconds for vampires to get up close in mind. So making invis like 4 seconds would make deceiver initiation on many areas impossible (Fane and Sommerdam bridge areas for example).
I am strongly against nerfing invisibility.

2. Plaque nerf? :rolleyes:
a) It deals less damage than your average expected backstab would land with a mere 50% chance to hit (if you totally cannot distinguish between front and back of a human and hit blindly) and thats (275+550)/2=413 damage in one moment. And if you know what you are doing and hit backs 75% of the time (that should include misses due to hitreg anomalies as well as hits to the fronts that count as maxbackstab anyway) thats average 481 damage in one immediate CHUNK. That means that the victim will not have the time to deal more damage to you, use any abilities, will not be eldritched/healed and saved and thats really important.
2) Backstab has 10 seconds cooldown and Infect has 15. That means even more damage output using it.
3) Both can hit multiple targets. Infect has its only advantage here - it can transfer its 200 - DoT effect if you're lucky/opponents unattentive enough.
4) Stacking multiple backstabs is obviously much more beneficial than multiple Infects.
5) It also does make a very distinctive sound just like backstab.

xNarcissusx
24th Jul 2015, 10:19
Considering how awkward the hit reg is for infect (and backstab maybe? don't really use it) I don't think they need much of a nerf. Infect is basically a puncture when comparing to other vampire abilities except that it has potential to cause 200 on other targets at the drawback that 200 of its original 400 damage are DoT and not direct.

The most common reasons to nerf something is either due to it being game breaking (something infect is not, it does not really guarantee a kill) or that everyone uses it. I would say it's true that infect is more common than backstab or that disguise is more common than dominate mind but really what you need is to offer a wider range of abilities to really test this.

So instead of nerfing or buffing the existing abilities I'd rather see the deceiver get a few more abilities. I feel like only offering 2 different types for each slot seems a bit meager. Just at the top of my head deceivers could get abilities like "hamstring slash" where it does a mediocre damage (maybe 325) and slows down the human for a few seconds. As they lack a good way of getting out of combat like reavers, tyrants, sentinels do, there could be 2nd ability like "Phase" that let's the deceiver avoid taking damage (maybe even walk through a wall idk, just spawning ideas here). Humans are able to disable the abilities of vampires for a few seconds, since the deceiver can already control the minds of a target it could have an aoe like "Fear" that disables the abilities of all humans within a certain radius.

lucinvampire
24th Jul 2015, 12:18
I'm inclined to disagree, I don't think changes should be made to these abilities, they are good as they are, they don't do over the top damage etc. I have to admit I don't use Disguise much as it's pretty naff, Infect is one of the only worthwhile Deceiver abilities, to nerf it I think he'd become more redundant than he appears to be atm.

PencileyePirate
24th Jul 2015, 15:10
I agree with you on that one, although your own point seems to have a contradiction. The usable disguise idea is interesting, but you claim that the disguise portion is useless and then say that "the tells tend to only be noticed and countered by the most experienced players", how so.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm saying the disguise aspect of the skill is useless, but when I speak of the "tells" I'm talking about its invisibility.


It deals less damage than your average expected backstab would land with a mere 50% chance to hit (if you totally cannot distinguish between front and back of a human and hit blindly) and thats (275+550)/2=413 damage in one moment.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Backstab rarely hits for the full damage against even half-decent players, since they can respond to the activation sound and quickly turn. I'd bet it only hits for full damage 25% of the time (at best) ... but unfortunately we don't have those stats.

On the other hand Plague guarantees 200 damage on hit + 200 damage over time = 400 guaranteed damage for the initial hit, which I'd gladly take over Backstab's pretty regular 275.


Considering how awkward the hit reg is for infect (and backstab maybe? don't really use it) ...

Well that's one of the points here; Backstab is far worse than Plague when it comes to getting a clean hit.

xNarcissusx
24th Jul 2015, 16:19
Thing is, and I think most would agree, getting that 550 is better than 400+200*x because it allows you to kill one target really fast which results in a 4v3. Problem is that hitting that 550 is harder to do, and this is how it should be, it's a risk with a high reward. Not everything can be equally easy to master.

Consider firewall vs flamethrower. The flamethrower has a lot more potential than the firewall but the risk is it ending early due to a tyrants charge/shockwave/ throw or a sentinels kidnap.

malgaa
24th Jul 2015, 18:46
In my opinion Deceiver is quite well balanced at the moment. Things I would change:

Backstab: haven't tried it enough yet but it seems unreliable, not only it's sometimes hard to hit but very deceiving (deceiving deceiver :nut:) because of the hitreg. You can backstab a guy from behind expecting the 550 dmg but Nosgoth won't agree with you. These hitreg problems apply to Infect aswell, it's not as bad as it used to be back in Closed Beta but there's still room for improvement.

Dominate Mind: I think this skill is OP, specially if used in an organized team (premades, competitive play). You deal damage, completely deny a guy & move him out of position (easy target to focus or extra fall dmg) all of this without that much risk if you use good positioning. This skill is so easy to trigger as you just need to aim for 1 - 1.5 secs, this becomes even easier if you use a crosshair overlay. I would change this skill to something different like, for instance, a silence skill that prevents a human from using abilities for a certain amount of time. With the same aiming system but without having to channel the skill.

ParadoxicalOmen
24th Jul 2015, 22:39
I disagree with both topics...

Invisibility is the perfect amount of time, you can't sneak for long distances and it's not too short either. Also, you can hear the deceivers footsteps so...
And infect is different from back-stab...one offers 405 DOT dmg while the other has a chance of 550 dmg (but 275 if you fail to back-stab...it's a wager)

Seems pretty fair to me...the only thing i think is that Dominate Mind needs a buff to make it more discrete (you glow even if you are behind a smoke bomb)

ps:btw they should fix the bug where you lose invisibility if prophet's leech life hits you

ApollosBow
25th Jul 2015, 01:27
I like everything with him as is.


ps:btw they should fix the bug where you lose invisibility if prophet's leech life hits you

I personally don't see this being a bug but more of a skill shot to catch him, since it is magic and not just an axe/bullet/arrow/canonball.

GenocidePete
25th Jul 2015, 04:10
The teammate outline for disguise would probably be fine if disguise also made the deceiver appear on the enemy map.

PencileyePirate
25th Jul 2015, 07:18
Thing is, and I think most would agree, getting that 550 is better than 400+200*x because it allows you to kill one target really fast which results in a 4v3.

If most would agree that Backstab is better ... then how come I routinely see deceivers synchronizing their Disguise to stack Plague on a single person? I don't think the damage over time even stacks, so it's quite silly this is actually a real tactic.

BTW, this may take 2 Deceivers but it's not hard and also tends to result in a 4v3. ; )

Honestly the last time I recall seeing someone actually use Backstab was months ago. IMO the difference is that it's way harder to mess up with Plague, so you're much more likely to come out unscathed.

xNarcissusx
25th Jul 2015, 10:22
If most would agree that Backstab is better ... then how come I routinely see deceivers synchronizing their Disguise to stack Plague on a single person? I don't think the damage over time even stacks, so it's quite silly this is actually a real tactic.

BTW, this may take 2 Deceivers but it's not hard and also tends to result in a 4v3. ; )

Honestly the last time I recall seeing someone actually use Backstab was months ago. IMO the difference is that it's way harder to mess up with Plague, so you're much more likely to come out unscathed.

Why do you quote me and then remove half the context? A big point of what I said was that it's harder so people don't use it. Also if they are synchronizing their infect that seems like a waste, I mean if you had 2 deceivers with backstab you could almost guarantee one would do 550 damage by hitting from both sides at the same time, so that would be 825 damage instantly.

I find it weird that you don't see deceivers use backstab more often but I guess you play with less casuals than I do.

PencileyePirate
26th Jul 2015, 04:18
Why do you quote me and then remove half the context? A big point of what I said was that it's harder so people don't use it. Also if they are synchronizing their infect that seems like a waste, I mean if you had 2 deceivers with backstab you could almost guarantee one would do 550 damage by hitting from both sides at the same time, so that would be 825 damage instantly.

I only quoted the comments I had a response to. I didn't remove any context, just further elaboration. We both agree Backstab is harder to use and I understand the risk/reward point of view, but I think the risk is too high and makes it relatively useless in the face of a skill that's lower risk and almost equally high reward.

Personally I doubt the above tactic would work with Backstab, it's too loud and seems to give humans more time to react. At least one of the Deceivers is very likely to end up getting CC'd.

As for your comments on flamethrower I would strongly disagree, but this thread is about Deceiver.