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View Full Version : Leaning and Peaking in Mankind Divided



3dot14hole
10th Jul 2015, 02:52
Judging so far, it looks like Eidos Montreal aren't implementing lean and peak. It's unfair on those who want a first person alternative to the cover system.

I don't even think it would be hard to implement, even now, all they need to do is add a tilting animation to the Aim Down Sights, and tilt the camera when behind cover when not equipped with items/weapons.

Doesn't this conflict with, "Playing the game anyway you want"?

Other than this, so far, the gaming looks decent.

CyberP
10th Jul 2015, 17:42
It isn't that easy to implement. If it uses dedicated keys you have to consider leaning for every possible player state: can the player lean whilst holding a crate? Can the player lean whilst swimming (no, but there will be no swimming anyway because Eidos Montreal), can the player move whilst leaning? And so on. If you're going for contextual cover-based leaning (say, as in Far Cry 3/4) then it is a lot easier to control and design from a programming standpoint, however a lot of animations would be required.
Of course in reality there should be no third person cover nonsense but first person leaning instead, because TPC is garbage and has been a bane on third person games since its conception*, and now it is sneaking its way into first person games too, strangely one it undoubtedly has no place (an Immersive Sim successor). There's no challenge, strategy, risk or reward in hiding in cover, surveying the environment and enemy patrol routes from safety, lining up your crosshair to their head from within cover, and POP. Somehow make a mistake? Pop back in cover and suck your thumb as your health regenerates...garbage design.

*cover systems have their place in TP games that go for realism, but if you make it the very core of the gameplay things turn out very mindless (especially when combined with health regen) as I've regretfully experienced too many disappointing times.

3dot14hole
11th Jul 2015, 04:12
I would prefer it to be on a dedicated control scheme, as I would always be fully in control. I don't think it would be hard work, just extra work. I know the left and right d pad buttons are now binding keys for augmentations, but whilst in ADS can free up the buttons.

I get were you're coming from, though some of those scenarios do seem a little excessive. Lean and Peak for 2 simple scenarios: equipped/unequipped, that way you have options for both combat and stealth. In terms of design nothing would need changing, as all you doing is playing the game from a different perspective.

I hope they read this and consider it.

Swimming, eh? I hope this makes a return, as well as shadows. Did Eidos say it won't feature in the game?

CyberP
11th Jul 2015, 13:00
I would prefer it to be on a dedicated control scheme, as I would always be fully in control. I don't think it would be hard work, just extra work.

No, certainly not too much effort or time, but they already made it clear that third person cover is more suitable to their design vision than FP leaning.

Swimming? Won't be there. Modern games don't allow swimming, and if they do it is always designed in such a way that there was little point in implementing it anyway because there is little to no impact on the gameplay. There are very few exceptions.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jul 2015, 16:41
I believe Dugas kinda confirmed on Twitter that there is no swimming.
https://twitter.com/Jeffachoo/status/615554191180857344

Deez Nuts @skillmepl

@Jeffachoo Has Adam learned to swim in Mankind Divided?

Jean-François Dugas added,

The truth is that @EliasToufexis can't swim...

Deez Nuts ‏@skillmepl Jun 29

aha ok it didnt bother me in HR because the game was excellent ;-).

3dot14hole
11th Jul 2015, 21:30
It's a shame, I know swimming was part of the original Deus Ex, it could have been a viable stealth option.

Proj2501
11th Jul 2015, 21:52
Swimming to infiltrate/evade always seemed weird to me in the context of games. Always felt like an easy way to make up for my mistakes. Unless its a short raid mission. I admit in the original it was fun as hell to just peer out of water and plan an attack. Swimming for escape makes sense. Get to a large body of water with the right gear and it's too hard to find you. For some reason I never questioned JC's ability to jump out of water and be instantly dry.

Shralla
12th Jul 2015, 04:09
I really hate this trend of asking a game developer about an issue with a game and then saying "well it didn't really bother me, the game was great!"

That doesn't effectively communicate the fact that there is an issue in the first place.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jul 2015, 11:42
For some reason I never questioned JC's ability to jump out of water and be instantly dry.
Hehe, nothing to question really, in futuristic terms. After all, we are already developing a wide variety of nanofabrics that repel water, stains, odour etc.


I really hate this trend of asking a game developer about an issue with a game and then saying "well it didn't really bother me, the game was great!"
That doesn't effectively communicate the fact that there is an issue in the first place.
It appears from his comments that the lack of swimming was never an 'issue', just a preference.

Shralla
12th Jul 2015, 16:42
No, that's just what people say when they don't have the balls to give real criticism.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jul 2015, 20:42
So, you're saying he's really angry about the lack of swimming and doesn't have the balls to say so?
I'm trying to work out how you arrive at that conclusion. :scratch:

CyberP
12th Jul 2015, 23:56
Yeah, definitely a misinterpretation on Shralla's part. It is OK to recognize a flaw, point it out, but not really be bothered by it.
I wish more people would be bothered by it, because I expect a lot from a game that calls itself Deus Ex, and I think given more time it would become a problem for most. Some years ago I used to think Deus Ex was fine as is, it didn't need any mod. Only now do I realize how ridiculous that perspective was. Now I'm noticing & fixing every major & minor pedantic imperfection (within reason), and there's loads. The result is beautiful.

3dot14hole
13th Jul 2015, 22:39
Underwater sections would open up alot of potential - alternative exploration, new augmentations, new enemy types. I wished the considered it. It's way too late now, maybe next game.

SageRhyme
1st Sep 2015, 09:35
It isn't that easy to implement. If it uses dedicated keys you have to consider leaning for every possible player state: can the player lean whilst holding a crate? Can the player lean whilst swimming (no, but there will be no swimming anyway because Eidos Montreal), can the player move whilst leaning? And so on. If you're going for contextual cover-based leaning (say, as in Far Cry 3/4) then it is a lot easier to control and design from a programming standpoint, however a lot of animations would be required.
Of course in reality there should be no third person cover nonsense but first person leaning instead, because TPC is garbage and has been a bane on third person games since its conception*, and now it is sneaking its way into first person games too, strangely one it undoubtedly has no place (an Immersive Sim successor). There's no challenge, strategy, risk or reward in hiding in cover, surveying the environment and enemy patrol routes from safety, lining up your crosshair to their head from within cover, and POP. Somehow make a mistake? Pop back in cover and suck your thumb as your health regenerates...garbage design.

*cover systems have their place in TP games that go for realism, but if you make it the very core of the gameplay things turn out very mindless (especially when combined with health regen) as I've regretfully experienced too many disappointing times.

Looks like Eidos is ignoring all of us. The number 1 complaint in professional reviews for DX:HR was third person cover/take downs. None of the reviewers liked it. The number 1 complaint from Deus Ex fans, is also third person cover/take downs.

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided's first shown feature, third person cover and take downs.

SMH.

Why can't they just put back in melee weapons and make it first person only? They also need to make it so you can't unlock every aug and you actually have to make choices -- isn't the games first pillar "Choice Matters?"

Then why is there no meaningful choices?

You don't need a cover system, we can see through walls. You don't need to see Adam's back when climbing ladders, and we damn sure don't need a "Press "x" to kill this group of enemies with a tedious animation that breaks immersion.

If they want a cover system so bad, they should take it from Killzone instead of Rainbowsix Vegas. We can see adam all we want during conversations and cutscenes, but the gameplay immersion should be paramount.

Eidos learns nothing and sticks to bad design that is universally hated by virtually everyone, professional critics and fans alike.

It's great that they finally have a decent game engine, so the old school 1990's robot animations and stuff are finally gone, but the third person stuff needs to go too. This very well could be one of the best games of all time, but they want to keep it simple for the plebes instead of juicing up the things that make deus ex unique, they are focusing on features that make Deus Ex less unique and more like "Bland game number generic."

Melee weapons and play style is much different than sneaking around with a gun you never intend on using and pressing "Q" for free take downs, very one dimensional. What happened to real melee combat, and sneaking up behind people and trying to aim for the head [a skill based instant take down] where if it goes wrong [which is like the core gameplay experience, managing mismanaged attempts and making the best of it] you can then fight with your melee weapon.


I miss my stun baton, I miss my Dragon Tooth Sword -- I really hate this "Push Q for free kills" easy mode immersion killing non-sense. It also takes away from the need for strength augmentations, since they no longer do anything other than let you carry more stuff and lift heavy objects. It's main purpose was for increasing melee damage -- now it's main purpose is holding more crap I never plan on using.

Womp womp, this is the very definition of missing the point and ignoring the unanimous feedback to push "cool" design, that nobody else thinks is cool.

Eidos needs to stop being obstinate. When you make a sequel, you're supposed to removed the things people didn't like and enhance the things people did. You're not supposed to try to enhance the things people didn't like, because it's not suddenly going to make people like it. There is absolutely nothing they can do to make the take down system or forced third person during gameplay a more attractive option than letting us choose to play exclusively in first person and including an actual melee combat system.

Continuously barking up the wrong tree even though everyone keeps telling them "WRONG TREE, IDIOT."

If they insist on this "We want you to be able to see Adam's cool tech non-sense" then clearly the most sensible solution in a single player only game is to make first/third person a toggle and let us play through the entirety of the game in either perspective.

This is innovation, because this actually satisfies people who like to see adam and people who like the core traditional classic immersion of the original -- repeating a mistake is making a mistake for a second time, and that's not helping anyone, the critics, the players, OR Eidos Montreal -- it's just a proverbial middle finger to the fans and critics and a prime example of EM sticking their fingers in their ears and going "Lalalalalala" we don't care about you! Which is obviously bad for business and reputation.

And honestly, the third person animations are already done, all they'd have to do is 1st person camera tilts, and yeah -- the farcry 3/4 killzone style cover is clearly the obvious choice. I don't know why they keep giving us this rookie designer garbage and ignoring the popular opinion that it's not wanted, like at all by the vast majority of fans.

We'll play it anyway, because the sum of it's parts and all, but really -- it's a huge detractor to the experience, and huge detractors should be removed rather than enhanced, another obvious truth.

It's really sad to see an otherwise top quality game have a rather low quality feature tacked onto the game as a moment to moment staple. If you play DX:HR as stealth only, it's snapping your camera to and from third person hundreds of times a every couple of minutes -- like, what?

If I'm spending a majority of my time in third person stuck to walls, then why not make the whole game third person? If I'm spending a majority of my time avoiding stealth and my camera is first person, why not make the whole game first person.

The constant back and forth is jarring and every review mentioned this. There are no first person games with third person cover systems anymore, they have all transitioned to first person cover systems or third person only games. The only games I can think of that do this are Vegas and HR and the reason it never picked up and the reason there is no Vegas 3 is because the system is bunk, garbage, and damaging to the experience.

Dishonored and fall out are the closest games to DX in the genre, Fallout lets you play first OR third person throughout the whole game as a toggle, Dishonored is first person only.

Why does EM think what they are doing is right when other devs have learned it's clearly wrong, and we can see this evident by the lack of releases that have this feature.

IF EM WAS LISTENING, THEY'D GO THE FALLOUT ROUTE AND GIVE US A VIEW HOTKEY AND LET US CHANGE TO THIRD PERSON WHEN WE CHOOSE TO SINCE THE WHOLE GAME IS ABOUT CHOICE, TAKING THE CHOICE AND FORCING IT ON US IS THE SAME AS FORCING BOSS FIGHTS, IT'S DAMAGING TO THE EXPERIENCE.

Also, first person take downs can look really cool too, just look at mirror's edge. I don't see the NEED to switch, I see the blatant want by the dev's, but I fail to see how this IMPROVES their game as a whole and doesn't make it worse for the majority.

NUMBER8ISGREAT
2nd Sep 2015, 20:03
Looks like Eidos is ignoring all of us. The number 1 complaint in professional reviews for DX:HR was third person cover/take downs. None of the reviewers liked it. The number 1 complaint from Deus Ex fans, is also third person cover/take downs.

Here is a review from PC GAMER.

The cover system immediately improves the two main things you spend your time doing: hiding and shooting. Deus Ex made stealth viable by making your enemies hilariously short-sighted. Human Revolution makes it viable by pulling out to third-person every time you hold the cover key to hug a wall. It shows you exactly which directions you're hidden from, and lets you see out from your hiding spot without exposing yourself. It's not realistic, but it means stealth works all the way through a game where enemies are sharp, aggressive, and can kill you in a second.

http://www.pcgamer.com/deus-ex-human-revolution-review/

Here is what Destructoid said:

With a right-click (or shoulder button press), however, Jensen will stick to a wall and the camera will shift to a third-person perspective. This is not only crucial for stealthy play, it also gives a great vantage point in what can become a very intense cover-based shooter.

http://www.destructoid.com/review-deus-ex-human-revolution-209544.phtml

You said none of the reviewers like it but I just proved otherwise.

Everything else you said is your opinion.