PDA

View Full Version : Official Gameplay Demo



Siddhartha_
19th Jun 2015, 03:44
Just in case anyone missed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh-iX2bxOjI

So, what do we think of the game thus far? I can see a lot of improvements from HR, lethal combat appears to be a lot more viable and satisfying this time around - however it appears they are still rewarding non-lethal playstyles with extra experience, something that bugged me (and many others) in HR, I was under the impression that they were going to balance out the experience no matter what playstyle you chose to adopt, I guess not. Overall though, the game looks like a lot of fun, the addition of mounted weapons such as the PEPS gun, nanoblade and taser make for fluid and satisfying gameplay. They mention a 2016 release, and if I had to guess I assume it releases in the first quarter of 2016, I sure hope it does anyway. Also, in the video, at 3:42, is that who I think it is? ;)

Sanunes
19th Jun 2015, 04:20
I liked a lot of what I saw in that gameplay demo, but I do agree I don't like how playing non-lethal always seemed to be the way they wanted you to go because of the extra experience. Heck in my one my HR games I decided to subdue everyone and then kill them.

There were two things that I would like to see expanded upon more before the game is released for they were my two biggest pet peeves about HR after the favoritism towards non-lethal combat and those were hacking and the inventory. I figure the inventory is still in development so I can understand that, but I hope to have a better understanding of hacking and how augments impact it for hacking probably was the one thing that negatively impacted my enjoyment of HR the most.

One new question I have is I hope they don't go the route of CD Projekt Red and BioWare with importing for I got a bit of the impression of that when during the very beginning they mention how "Jensen tried to stop this" and if that relates to our choice at the end. If they do decide to go that route I hope there is the option to set every flag the game will look at within MD itself, for I don't want to go back and play HR again to change my import variables if I want to try something new.

Siddhartha_
19th Jun 2015, 04:34
One new question I have is I hope they don't go the route of CD Projekt Red and BioWare with importing for I got a bit of the impression of that when during the very beginning they mention how "Jensen tried to stop this" and if that relates to our choice at the end. If they do decide to go that route I hope there is the option to set every flag the game will look at within MD itself, for I don't want to go back and play HR again to change my import variables if I want to try something new.

I'm not too sure what you mean by this, if you're talking about the decision you made at the very end of HR being imported over onto MD and ultimately varying your experiences in MD based on what you chose in HR, that's not the case at all. According to the devs, each ending from HR has an impact on MD, negating the necessity to import whichever decision you made from HR. I'd say this is probably for the best, otherwise things start to get a bit too convoluted.

Sanunes
19th Jun 2015, 04:42
I'm not too sure what you mean by this, if you're talking about the decision you made at the very end of HR being imported over onto MD and ultimately varying your experiences in MD based on what you chose in HR, that's not the case at all. According to the devs, each ending from HR has an impact on MD, negating the necessity to import whichever decision you made from HR. I'd say this is probably for the best, otherwise things start to get a bit too convoluted.

I must have missed the conversation for if it is just the ending that is fine for I probably have a save around that point, my concern was if they go and take other choices such as Zeke Sanders or Malik.

Ruboso
19th Jun 2015, 04:57
Wait, so he can shoot the Nanoblade and make it explode......... but he can't just simply slash with it in real-time?

lol?

Siddhartha_
19th Jun 2015, 05:25
Wait, so he can shoot the Nanoblade and make it explode......... but he can't just simply slash with it in real-time?

lol?

You'll notice in the demo a number of times that he uses his nanoblades to perform lethal takedowns.

vallux
19th Jun 2015, 06:43
I think he was referring to nanoblades as melee weapons. Gotta say the takedowns look a lot smoother and they are integrated better with the gameplay. I also liked the hacking minigame, it looked cooler somehow while still familiar. Not a fan of the font at places, maybe it's an alpha thing.

About that spoilery bit The **** happens to Rucker? That's some body horrory ****. I'm guessing nanomachines and or Deus Ex version of FoxDie. Didn't seem like any Nu-Poz related thing. It was creepy as all hell though

ZakKa89
19th Jun 2015, 10:38
Terrible Youtube compression. Please provide us with a better quality video Eidos.

Love what I am seeing though:

+ Icarus dash seems very useful when exploring AND fun for combat. Basically ME3 vanguards biotic charge.
+ Atmosphere and level design looks like a lot of fun
+ New augmentations and remote hacking
+ Icarus landing system is a lot faster now. Love it.
+ Bullet time aug hahaa nice
+ Amazing detail in the environment as always. Objects have labels, there are brand names all over the place etcetera.


- but please REMOVE that floating ammo counter on the gun. It is ugly and not needed. I remember seeing this in gameplayvideos for DEHR as well but thankfully they removed it in the final game.
- Size of the viewmodel of the guns. A bit to big. Hopefully smaller in PC version.

Isumbarus
19th Jun 2015, 10:57
Why the PC player is forced to use radar?Why there is no maps and schematics?

vallux
19th Jun 2015, 11:20
Pretty sure there is a map? Human Revolution had one and a radar? Hm. Not sure though. Mankind Divided seems to have a proper minimap this time around.

boomer001
19th Jun 2015, 11:55
Looks like everything I wanted it to be. My only complaint is the HUD. It's an ugly trend I see in a lot of modern games; I think cluttering the HUD is the biggest offender among the annoyances that could be fixed relatively easiy.

1. feels too large, maybe it would be possible to scale it in the PC version? I'm thinking that a lot of the HUD will be different for the PC version because of a different control scheme.
2. do we really need to see ammo count on the gun model? extremely distracting
3. the cover/takedown prompts are still huge, that was already my complaint in HR
4. that serif font that shows up in some prompts (weapon upgrade view most notably) feels really out of place

To sum up, I'd like the hud to be a bit more minimalistic. I wouldn't even mind that much if it stayed the same, just be half the size. I also hope we don't lose inventory management, that would hurt a lot. I also much prefer numerical HP count, but that is a minor nitpick.
The world and gameplay look amazing, I can't wait to jump on it. HR was probably my favorite game of the last gen.

ZakKa89
19th Jun 2015, 13:35
It's already confirmed there will be an inventory, don't worry.

CyberP
19th Jun 2015, 14:00
Looks dumber and more compromised than both DX:HR and Invisible War.

Siddhartha_
19th Jun 2015, 14:50
I think he was referring to nanoblades as melee weapons. Gotta say the takedowns look a lot smoother and they are integrated better with the gameplay. I also liked the hacking minigame, it looked cooler somehow while still familiar. Not a fan of the font at places, maybe it's an alpha thing.

About that spoilery bit The **** happens to Rucker? That's some body horrory ****. I'm guessing nanomachines and or Deus Ex version of FoxDie. Didn't seem like any Nu-Poz related thing. It was creepy as all hell though

I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with the takedowns. Seeing Jensen in action in the third person view is awesome because he looks like a badass, but it also kind of breaks the fluidity of gameplay just a little bit, which can be frustrating. It'd be nice if they gave us an option to turn off third person view takedowns, or at least make the takedowns faster and more seamless.

The hacking minigame looks interesting, it looks like when you enter the minigame you don't have complete view of all the nodes until you access a few first, which could make it a little more difficult I guess. I was happy with the minigame from HR, so I'm sure I'll like this one too.

As for Rucker, to me it looks as if someone activated his kill switch, similar to the aug incident in HR. Who knows though.

Terenty
19th Jun 2015, 15:00
And again everything in the world revolves around this augs issue, from ads to graffities on the walls. Iam pretty sure every npc will also talk only about augmentations.

Siddhartha_
19th Jun 2015, 15:07
Looks like everything I wanted it to be. My only complaint is the HUD. It's an ugly trend I see in a lot of modern games; I think cluttering the HUD is the biggest offender among the annoyances that could be fixed relatively easiy.

1. feels too large, maybe it would be possible to scale it in the PC version? I'm thinking that a lot of the HUD will be different for the PC version because of a different control scheme.
2. do we really need to see ammo count on the gun model? extremely distracting
3. the cover/takedown prompts are still huge, that was already my complaint in HR
4. that serif font that shows up in some prompts (weapon upgrade view most notably) feels really out of place

To sum up, I'd like the hud to be a bit more minimalistic. I wouldn't even mind that much if it stayed the same, just be half the size. I also hope we don't lose inventory management, that would hurt a lot. I also much prefer numerical HP count, but that is a minor nitpick.
The world and gameplay look amazing, I can't wait to jump on it. HR was probably my favorite game of the last gen.

I agree, a game's HUD is a pretty important factor for me too. The HUD showcased in the demo needs to be toned down quite a lot, every part of the HUD is way bigger than what it needs to be, and they also sort of face in a diagonal way instead of being square-on (the health and energy bar in particular) which just takes up even more of the screen. As for that ammo count on your gun while holding it, completely unnecessary, especially since your ammo count is more than visible on the bottom right, this needs to be removed for sure. As for inventory management, I think I read somewhere that the inventory will be the same as HR, where you need to tetris your items - not 100% sure on that though.

Ruboso
19th Jun 2015, 19:34
You'll notice in the demo a number of times that he uses his nanoblades to perform lethal takedowns.

I meant melee combat, not QTE's. Like in Deus Ex, Fallout, Shadow Warrior, Dishonored, etc.

It would really be awesome with the Icarus Charge and tanky skin.

Irate_Iguana
19th Jun 2015, 20:18
This was a pretty good gameplay demo. It showed the gameplay as we've come to expect from HR. They won't be departing from the formula that worked well for them last time. Not that there was a real need to. HR needed polishing and if MD can deliver on that they've got a pretty good game on their hands. The demo did have me wondering if they have made the necessary improvements.

The HUD is huge and the angled elements make it feel more gamey than it needs to be. It's in the way. I don't know if this is a console thing, or if that is the new vibe they want to have. All elements on screen are pretty huge. The ammo counter on the gun is not only huge, but also completely superfluous. It wasn't a good idea in the HR demo and isn't a good idea here.

Sticking to cover is improved, but there is still a noticeable shift. Again we switch perspective for ladders. I was not, and am still not, a fan of this perspective switch.

The new environments look pretty but massively cluttered, just like HR. There is a huge amount of stuff everywhere. I'm hoping for some more contrast than we got in HR. Levels are still very boxy and with a lot of inexplicable, conveniently-placed, waist-high barriers. An artifact of it being a cover shooter, but they could have done something more with it. On the plus side, some of the environment looks to be semi-destructible. The plating on the railing near the hanging TV's could be shot off. This could make for some interesting levels.

The takedowns are prettier, but they still seem to function exactly like in HR. Which means that they'll be subject to the exact same problems as in HR. The new augs look pretty nice, but overpowered. They integrated the PEPS and Taser into Adam's fists and made them cost ammo. Typhoon looks to be out and replaced with the Ballistic Nanoblades. These also cost ammo instead of (or maybe in addition to) BE. With the exception of the Mark and Execute feature of the Taser and the detonation ability of the flying blades, these seem to be the less overpowered augs. Dash is a mixture of Charge (Mass Effect) and Blink (Dishonored). It was widely overpowered in those games and I'm wondering whether or not they can balance it. We all know Bullet Time from other games and it tends to be a massive edge. The Titan Shield makes you invulnerable, but the graphics in 1st person are incredibly annoying. They've got a lot of work on their hands to make sure that there is at least a challenge somewhere to be found.

The hacking minigame looks prettier and with a few new options and tricks. I didn't find it annoying in HR and this seems to be an improvement. I wonder if it is still pretty much mandatory. In HR quite a lot of the story came from e-mails and it was a good source of XP. The Remote Hacking looks pretty simple, but depending on what it works on and what kind of resources it consumes it could be quite gamebreaking.

From the looks of it Adam is on a diet. No more chocolate for him, he has to use biocells. Why they didn't go the whole way and name them bioelectric cells is beyond me.

They talk a lot about combat being improved, but I'm not seeing it. Adam's movement is still not all that and popping up and popping some moles looks to be a bit clumsy still. Enemies aren't using any tactics whatsoever. They just bum rush and fire wildly. No grenades, group tactics, covering fire or intelligent aug use to be seen.

Combat, lethal or not, should not give XP. Non-lethal certainly shouldn't give more XP than lethal. In HR this lead to a preference for stealth non-lethal gameplay and weird behavior and this will be exactly the same in MD if they keep this up.

The conversation battle was weird. He said they improved it, but I'm not seeing it. It looks to be exactly the same. Does it take into account your previous decisions and gameplay actions? Do you build up a reputation that can help/hurt you depending on who you talk to? Does it take into account who you've already talked to, what e-mails you've read and any secrets you've uncovered? I did have to laugh when Jensen said: "Neither of us wants anyone to get hurt", when he just slaughtered most of the map for no reason.

I don't like the fact that the guy said that they'll be constantly reminding us that they've got multiple paths and solutions. I want to figure that stuff out for myself, not having my hand held. I'm a grown reptile, I can think for myself, thank you very much. The fun in exploration is discovery.

Eliza is back. Wonder whether anyone, but Adam specifically, remarks on the fact that she is an A.I. (and much more advanced that Morpheus, Daedalus, Icarus and Helios combined).




And again everything in the world revolves around this augs issue, from ads to graffities on the walls. Iam pretty sure every npc will also talk only about augmentations.

Yep. Laying the Apartheid-vibe on thick and heavy. It was especially bad in the train station cutscene briefing. Now, this might just be because of the place (an aug ghetto isn't a weird place to have this theme), but if HR is any indication it will be like this constantly.

If we are on the matter of the train station cutscene briefing, I'm not a fan of it taking a good 5 minutes either. For games it should be "show, don't tell" and "play, don't show".

vallux
19th Jun 2015, 21:26
The conversation battle was weird. He said they improved it, but I'm not seeing it. It looks to be exactly the same. Does it take into account your previous decisions and gameplay actions? Do you build up a reputation that can help/hurt you depending on who you talk to? Does it take into account who you've already talked to, what e-mails you've read and any secrets you've uncovered? I did have to laugh when Jensen said: "Neither of us wants anyone to get hurt", when he just slaughtered most of the map for no reason.


Yep. Laying the Apartheid-vibe on thick and heavy. It was especially bad in the train station cutscene briefing. Now, this might just be because of the place (an aug ghetto isn't a weird place to have this theme), but if HR is any indication it will be like this constantly.


I think your actions matter in the battles seeing as the dude doesn't really want to work with you knowing you just massacred a couple dozen of his men and women. The train station was really heavy on the "augmented people are trash now" thing. Cops constantly stopping you asking for papers, drones, people being stopped and all the hey this is unfair. Then again EM isn't really known for their subtlety. I really wanted Adam to get all uppity though, but I guess it doesn't fit his stoic-tried-to-make-a-difference-and-****ed-it-up view of the world.

Siddhartha_
20th Jun 2015, 02:13
The HUD is huge and the angled elements make it feel more gamey than it needs to be. It's in the way. I don't know if this is a console thing, or if that is the new vibe they want to have. All elements on screen are pretty huge. The ammo counter on the gun is not only huge, but also completely superfluous. It wasn't a good idea in the HR demo and isn't a good idea here.

Agreed. And I'm sure if they were smart enough to tone down the HUD size and its elements before the official release of HR, hopefully they can do the same for MD. As it stands, it definitely needs to be worked on.


Sticking to cover is improved, but there is still a noticeable shift. Again we switch perspective for ladders. I was not, and am still not, a fan of this perspective switch.

I honestly don't have a problem with switching between perspectives, in fact when it comes to taking cover, I actually prefer that it switches to the third-person view, you can get a much better view of your surroundings. I couldn't imagine a shooting game where cover is essential, but the cover being in the first-person, that just sounds awkward. I personally would like for there to be an option to turn off third-person QTEs/scenes for takedowns and other things like the Icarus Landing ability, while the third-person scenes look freaking cool, I find that it breaks the fluidity of gameplay.


The new environments look pretty but massively cluttered, just like HR. There is a huge amount of stuff everywhere. I'm hoping for some more contrast than we got in HR. Levels are still very boxy and with a lot of inexplicable, conveniently-placed, waist-high barriers. An artifact of it being a cover shooter, but they could have done something more with it. On the plus side, some of the environment looks to be semi-destructible. The plating on the railing near the hanging TV's could be shot off. This could make for some interesting levels.

I'd say that the claustrophobic feeling and cluttered environments is essential to set the scene for that particular place in the game. It's a small, heavily populated city, there's going to be **** everywhere. I wouldn't assume that the entirety of MD will consist of boxy levels considering they've only shown one mission, and again, in that mission a boxy level design is essential to give you that claustrophobic feeling; and instead of it being horizontal, the level appears to expand vertically. You're right though, most of the levels in HR had that dull boxy design. Hopefully they mix it up a bit in MD, and also make the city hubs larger with more things to explore.


The takedowns are prettier, but they still seem to function exactly like in HR. Which means that they'll be subject to the exact same problems as in HR. The new augs look pretty nice, but overpowered. They integrated the PEPS and Taser into Adam's fists and made them cost ammo. Typhoon looks to be out and replaced with the Ballistic Nanoblades. These also cost ammo instead of (or maybe in addition to) BE. With the exception of the Mark and Execute feature of the Taser and the detonation ability of the flying blades, these seem to be the less overpowered augs. Dash is a mixture of Charge (Mass Effect) and Blink (Dishonored). It was widely overpowered in those games and I'm wondering whether or not they can balance it. We all know Bullet Time from other games and it tends to be a massive edge. The Titan Shield makes you invulnerable, but the graphics in 1st person are incredibly annoying. They've got a lot of work on their hands to make sure that there is at least a challenge somewhere to be found.

While cool, the new augs do seem a little bit overpowered. That was one gripe I had with HR, some of the augs just weren't balanced properly and made the game way too easy and simplistic, such as the Cloaking and Silent Sprinting augs (can't remember what they're called). However it is difficult to tell from that demo about the game's level of difficulty, considering the player had infinite life/energy/ammo etc for the sake of showing off the game's new mechanics, but I really do hope they manage to balance everything out properly. For example, the new Dash augmentation should not only use energy, but also have a cooldown of, I dunno, maybe 15-30 seconds, adding cooldown timers on the really strong abilities is probably one of the best ways to balance out and stop the abuse of game mechanics, in my opinion.


The hacking minigame looks prettier and with a few new options and tricks. I didn't find it annoying in HR and this seems to be an improvement. I wonder if it is still pretty much mandatory. In HR quite a lot of the story came from e-mails and it was a good source of XP. The Remote Hacking looks pretty simple, but depending on what it works on and what kind of resources it consumes it could be quite gamebreaking..

The only game I can think of that had remote hacking (and game that I'm currently playing because it's amazing) is Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. The remote hacking in that game was not only fun, but also mandatory in some cases to excel in completing a particular objective. I'm excited to see the possibilities of this mechanic in MD.


From the looks of it Adam is on a diet. No more chocolate for him, he has to use biocells. Why they didn't go the whole way and name them bioelectric cells is beyond me.

"Bioelectric Cells" in the text probably takes up too much of the screen, and right now the HUD is already unnecessarily clustered. Who knows though.


They talk a lot about combat being improved, but I'm not seeing it. Adam's movement is still not all that and popping up and popping some moles looks to be a bit clumsy still. Enemies aren't using any tactics whatsoever. They just bum rush and fire wildly. No grenades, group tactics, covering fire or intelligent aug use to be seen.

Combat looks fine to me, it is at the very least a huge step-up from HR. Enemy AI doesn't seem to have been improved on, they've still got that bum-rushy tactic from HR like you said. They really need to make enemies more tactical and versatile to make for a balanced, challenging experience.


Combat, lethal or not, should not give XP.

This.


The conversation battle was weird. He said they improved it, but I'm not seeing it. It looks to be exactly the same. Does it take into account your previous decisions and gameplay actions? Do you build up a reputation that can help/hurt you depending on who you talk to? Does it take into account who you've already talked to, what e-mails you've read and any secrets you've uncovered? I did have to laugh when Jensen said: "Neither of us wants anyone to get hurt", when he just slaughtered most of the map for no reason.

I don't really see any improvements either, looks pretty much exactly the same as HR convo-battles, this isn't necessarily a bad thing though, just not an improvement. And yes I thought some parts of the conversation were pretty hypocritical like the example you mentioned, and also how Rucker claims to be a pacifist but he willingly orders his ARC buddies to shoot and kill Jensen, and I guess anyone else that isn't part of the ARC for that matter. While hypocritical, kind of a minor detail really that I can just ignore and pretend it never happened.


I don't like the fact that the guy said that they'll be constantly reminding us that they've got multiple paths and solutions. I want to figure that stuff out for myself, not having my hand held. I'm a grown reptile, I can think for myself, thank you very much. The fun in exploration is discovery.

You should know game companies by now, if they don't appease the casuals, these said casuals will whinge about the game being too difficult. So your wish is quite a stretch, kind of unfortunate really.


Eliza is back. Wonder whether anyone, but Adam specifically, remarks on the fact that she is an A.I. (and much more advanced that Morpheus, Daedalus, Icarus and Helios combined).

I look forward to seeing what they end up doing with Eliza, and her/its relationship with Jensen, as Eliza helped Jensen in HR. Maybe she'll actually be one of Jensen's allies in MD? But how is she more advanced than all the AI's from DX1 combined?

Irate_Iguana
20th Jun 2015, 12:06
I honestly don't have a problem with switching between perspectives, in fact when it comes to taking cover, I actually prefer that it switches to the third-person view, you can get a much better view of your surroundings. I couldn't imagine a shooting game where cover is essential, but the cover being in the first-person, that just sounds awkward. I personally would like for there to be an option to turn off third-person QTEs/scenes for takedowns and other things like the Icarus Landing ability, while the third-person scenes look freaking cool, I find that it breaks the fluidity of gameplay.

Whether or not the switch bothers you depends entirely on the person. It is slightly annoying to me, but I can totally see that most people wouldn't be bothered by it. The 3rd person perspective does give you a better view of your surroundings and that is exactly my problem with it. It makes the stealth gameplay way too easy and gives you a too tactical overview for fighting. It also negates the necessity or utility of a lot of augs.

You can have a pretty good 1st person cover system. It's extremely uncommon. I only know of Call of Juarez using that system. Look up some videos on youtube to get an idea of how it looks. The 1st person perspective for takedowns and abilities is entirely possible. Dishonored had it. Quick takedowns for common people and 1st person cutscene takedowns for the important targets in a mission. It is doable, but not something that Squeenix wants for DX.



I'd say that the claustrophobic feeling and cluttered environments is essential to set the scene for that particular place in the game. It's a small, heavily populated city, there's going to be **** everywhere. I wouldn't assume that the entirety of MD will consist of boxy levels considering they've only shown one mission, and again, in that mission a boxy level design is essential to give you that claustrophobic feeling; and instead of it being horizontal, the level appears to expand vertically. You're right though, most of the levels in HR had that dull boxy design. Hopefully they mix it up a bit in MD, and also make the city hubs larger with more things to explore.

In Golem city it is entirely appropriate. It was based on the Kowloon Walled City and looks exactly what I imagine a cyberpunk ghetto would look like. It also looked like most street levels in HR with stuff everywhere. The train station is cleaner, but still pretty boxy and with a lot of clutter. The other levels might be different and you are right that this is just one mission. It's just that we know what HR looked like and the levels so far do look a lot like it.

I hadn't commented on the verticallity of the level, but it is a welcome addition and I hope that they can keep it up for the rest of the game.



While cool, the new augs do seem a little bit overpowered. That was one gripe I had with HR, some of the augs just weren't balanced properly and made the game way too easy and simplistic, such as the Cloaking and Silent Sprinting augs (can't remember what they're called). However it is difficult to tell from that demo about the game's level of difficulty, considering the player had infinite life/energy/ammo etc for the sake of showing off the game's new mechanics, but I really do hope they manage to balance everything out properly. For example, the new Dash augmentation should not only use energy, but also have a cooldown of, I dunno, maybe 15-30 seconds, adding cooldown timers on the really strong abilities is probably one of the best ways to balance out and stop the abuse of game mechanics, in my opinion.

It is a demo with an intentionally overpowered avatar, but I know those abilities from other games and I'm guessing you do to. Since HR wasn't exactly a outstanding pillar of balanced combat I'm going to go with my gut on this one and assume that they won't be that balanced in MD.

The more powerful augs will probably use more BE. The various fist weapons use ammo and maybe BE as well. These are reasonable restrictions but they depend on how limit their supply is. Apart from the 1st level there wasn't a real need to be conservative with BE in HR because you could find more chocolate lying around than you knew what to do with. The same went for the Typhoon. For a top secret military aug there sure as hell was a lot of ammo lying around. I like your idea for adding cooldowns. I wonder if they could set up a sort of general heat system like what Mech games use. Not only do you have to deal with energy and ammo but you've got to manage your heat.



The only game I can think of that had remote hacking (and game that I'm currently playing because it's amazing) is Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. The remote hacking in that game was not only fun, but also mandatory in some cases to excel in completing a particular objective. I'm excited to see the possibilities of this mechanic in MD.

I liked it in Splinter Cell. That game was properly built for stealth and the hacking made excellent sense there. It could very well be decent in MD, but it all comes back to my lack of faith in their balancing prowess.



You should know game companies by now, if they don't appease the casuals, these said casuals will whinge about the game being too difficult. So your wish is quite a stretch, kind of unfortunate really.

I know. Not only is handholding the name of the game in the industry, but I'm guessing that MD is much further along in development than HR. They weren't inclined to listen to commentary with HR, but they probably don't have the time to make adjustments with MD.



But how is she more advanced than all the AI's from DX1 combined?

She managed to appear human enough for the entire world to not notice that she was an AI. Not to mention that she drew her own conclusions against the wishes of those she was programmed by. She had an emotional response to these conclusions. Daedalus, Icarus and Helios act exactly like a computer program. Their motivations are clearly the result of their programming.

FrankCSIS
21st Jun 2015, 01:48
The 3rd person perspective does give you a better view of your surroundings and that is exactly my problem with it. It makes the stealth gameplay way too easy and gives you a too tactical overview for fighting. It also negates the necessity or utility of a lot of augs.

No joke, I did not, once, use any of the stealth-related augs, and I got my Ghost points each time. At some point I invested in the augs because of a heavy Praxis surplus, and nothing else to spend it on. People may say what they want, the third person cover has an enormous impact on gameplay and balance, especially so with the level design, simple AI and lack of other detection tools. Yes, third person cover may still offer a stealth challenge, but this was most certainly not the case here, basically because the game also has to accommodate the other approaches, something a game like Splinter Cell needs not worry about.

Cyberhuman
21st Jun 2015, 19:06
She managed to appear human enough for the entire world to not notice that she was an AI. Not to mention that she drew her own conclusions against the wishes of those she was programmed by. She had an emotional response to these conclusions. Daedalus, Icarus and Helios act exactly like a computer program. Their motivations are clearly the result of their programming.

You're saying that she's the only AI that has actually exhibited sentient traits. This is an interesting observation, and it's one of the reasons why Eliza might be a very important character in the future of the Deus Ex Universe. She'll probably be one of the keys to challenging the Illuminati.

68_pie
21st Jun 2015, 21:54
The only game I can think of that had remote hacking (and game that I'm currently playing because it's amazing) is Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

Alpha Protocol had it. It was OP but it required significant investment to upgrade that far.

NUMBER8ISGREAT
21st Jun 2015, 22:43
The guns didn't sound like those from the Director's Cut so that's one positive thing.

3rdmillhouse
21st Jun 2015, 22:51
That was an amazing demo.

Tverdyj
22nd Jun 2015, 14:53
Things I liked:
-hacking looks like it had some work done. Remote hacking = more possibilities, which is great.
-first-person crouch still there. Means I still have the option to stealth w/o using the cover system, hooray.
-all the clutter in the level suggests that they may have better physics in the new engine. We'll need a hub exploration demo to make sure of this, though.
-also, THEY MOVED THE EASY-MODE RADAR TOO THE UPPER-RIGHT CORNER OF THE SCREEN! This isn't quite the victory (a meny option to turn it off ala Thi4f or Wild Hunt would be much better), but it's still much easier to ignore it there.

Things I'm slightly worried about:
-apparent focus on combat, and introducing combat augs for the "cool factor"
-doesn't seem like EM learned any subtlety with their story-telling

Things i'm ambivalent/unsure about:
-since when are convo battles "bosses"? When I heard the phrase "conversation boss battle", I imagined a Barrett-equivalent you can talk your way out of fighting (given the right augs). This is just a stoory element, albeit one I always liked. Nevertheless, like others, not sure where's the improvement here, unless we're talking aesthetics.
-teleportation trick. I'm yet to play Dishonored, so can't offer an opinion on how well it works and whether it's OP or not.

Overall, I retain my attitude of "reserved cautious optimism" after this demo

ZakKa89
24th Jun 2015, 22:39
Finally the gameplay demo in GOOD quality:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_25_min_of_deus_ex_mankind_divided-16783_en.html

Man I love that website

residentx
26th Jun 2015, 12:55
I just watched this and this going to be an amazing game...

1. I like the richer details but I worry that the game might end up being 50-75GB. I'm saving now to upgrade my HP 8770w.

2. I like the fact this is coming out later during the year. I hope they might support Directx 12 and Intel should have new hardware(6th Generation Processors) out by then. Good Move, Eidos!

3. I don't like Chikane...I'm sorry. I will always compare him to Faridah Malik. He doesn't seem to have her intellect. Listening to his conversations with Jensen was boring in the Demo. Please replace him with Ben Saxon.

4. I like the new ranged weapons but I think they will make the game too easy. I enjoyed using takedowns in DE:HR and my best/satisfying run was with the dart gun. I can't say enough about takedowns. I used to play DE:HR and position myself careful for each one...EVERY STEP made a difference during takedowns in DE: HR!

5. The conversations trees...in DE: HR I used to just spend time listening to the conversations to get intel. Some of the crazy stuff Belltower employees and the gangs used to talk about cracked me up. I hope they put effort to give this game that same feel.

6. The replay factor...they seem to have this handled clearly. I'm scared that I might be compelled to play this game for the next year after release...lol.

7. Will we see any of the original characters? Megan Reed, Hugh Darrow, William Taggert, Tong Si Hung, Bob Page, David Sarif, or the rise of UNATCO? Is Ezekiel 'Zeke' Sanders still in jail? What about Garvin Quinn, the spy from the missing link? What about Tracer Tong's development?

8. Will Jensen kill the 5 illuminati? Will they be the new bosses for DE: MD?

9. This is a wishlist request. During the Director Commentaries, the Eidos team said they cut out a lot of material to get DE: HR out. I hope when this series is done, they build a DLC with those pieces so we can see what this story was fully suppose to be like.

Avenging_Teabag
26th Jun 2015, 14:34
.

I don't like the fact that the guy said that they'll be constantly reminding us that they've got multiple paths and solutions. I want to figure that stuff out for myself, not having my hand held. I'm a grown reptile, I can think for myself, thank you very much. The fun in exploration is discovery.

That was one of the few things that I didn't like in the demo. Exploration when you're verbally handheld all the time doesn't sound very satisfying.

Focus time seems like an "I win" button.

As far as balancing stealth and action is concerned, seems like they went with simply making Adam tankier, but leaving the XP rewards favoring stealth disproportionally. Blah.

residentx
26th Jun 2015, 14:42
That was one of the few things that I didn't like in the demo. Exploration when you're verbally handheld all the time doesn't sound very satisfying.

Focus time seems like an "I win" button.

As far as balancing stealth and action is concerned, seems like they went with simply making Adam tankier, but leaving the XP rewards favoring stealth disproportionally. Blah.

Is telling you that you have options, holding your hand? All this tells me is that maps will probably be complex so hints here and there will help newbies

Avenging_Teabag
26th Jun 2015, 14:48
Unless you're an absolute newcomer to the franchise, you should already know that a big part of Deus Ex is exploration and finding alternate ways to go about completing your objectives. Usually, I'm all for helping out newbies, but not in this. I'm afraid that could take out a significant part of what makes Deus Ex Deus Ex.

residentx
26th Jun 2015, 15:19
Unless you're an absolute newcomer to the franchise, you should already know that a big part of Deus Ex is exploration and finding alternate ways to go about completing your objectives. Usually, I'm all for helping out newbies, but not in this. I'm afraid that could take out a significant part of what makes Deus Ex Deus Ex.

I agree with you but I've watched others play who don't have the "explorer" mentality and they can't navigate it...few of my friends have even finished the game. This game maps will be complex...maybe the mode you choose will say whether you get the tips. Would you like that?

Irate_Iguana
26th Jun 2015, 19:41
Is telling you that you have options, holding your hand? All this tells me is that maps will probably be complex so hints here and there will help newbies

After the tutorial, which unfortunately is the entire first level these days, I do consider that hand holding. Getting players to get to know the game is something that the tutorial is for; a separate level showing them how this game does things. After that you should trust in the player and let them do their thing.

You can't force a change in players. Once they are told once that there is a possibility to explore a player either gets it and seeks a challenge in getting everywhere, or he will not and go for the fastest and most obvious route. There is a minimap and a larger map to guide all players. You can't force those that don't care for exploration to explore.

CyberP
27th Jun 2015, 03:47
Exploration when you're verbally handheld all the time doesn't sound very satisfying.

Focus time seems like an "I win" button.

As far as balancing stealth and action is concerned, seems like they went with simply making Adam tankier, but leaving the XP rewards favoring stealth disproportionally. Blah.

I'm going to need damn good reasoning as to why I should purchase this game. It looks like a dumber Human Revolution with regards to gameplay. Considering HR was a dumber derivative of Deus Ex, well there comes a point where you cannot realistically call it Deus Ex anymore...yet we have Warren Spector begging for a Square-Enix produced DX1 remake not one week after complaining about remakes and a lack of originality at E3.

Words cannot express how disappointing and ass-backwards everything gaming is these days.

ZakKa89
27th Jun 2015, 18:27
From the HQ gameplay:

http://i.imgur.com/5vEHXqR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WWvQdRi.jpg

Isumbarus
27th Jun 2015, 20:19
There are still console elements in this new game.

residentx
28th Jun 2015, 00:16
I'm going to need damn good reasoning as to why I should purchase this game. It looks like a dumber Human Revolution with regards to gameplay. Considering HR was a dumber derivative of Deus Ex, well there comes a point where you cannot realistically call it Deus Ex anymore...yet we have Warren Spector begging for a Square-Enix produced DX1 remake not one week after complaining about remakes and a lack of originality at E3.

Words cannot express how disappointing and ass-backwards everything gaming is these days.

CyberP, I don't care what you need...why do you come to these boards and moan? This games looks simply amazing.
You need to stop being so critical. Also, post the link to Spector begging for a DX1 remake please.

And just for the record, I still haven't finished the lame DX1. You want to something to complain about...every time I play it I get bored to death. DE:HR Forever! Jensen would smoke JC any day!

Your just a gangbanger, CyberP, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKYbXZE5EV8

Can JC do this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8tLuaR3lX4

I found an article about spector here, http://wccftech.com/warren-spector-creator-original-deus-talks-human-revolution-mankind-divided-halflife-cancelled-project/

He's crying about the violence...LMFAO. Here's his reddit rant, http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/34fdjb/hi_i_am_warren_spector_a_game_developer_from/

placeholder so I can edit my above comments.I can't edit my last comment till another posts.

Also, don't forget to vote on the DE: MD goodies, https://www.deusex.com/micro/vote

FrankCSIS
28th Jun 2015, 04:45
That's 4 quality posts right there. Out of 8, you've got a great average.

Adam looks like a true sociopath on the second screenie!

SageSavage
28th Jun 2015, 08:23
And just for the record, I still haven't finished the lame DX1. You want to something to complain about...every time I play it I get bored to death. DE:HR Forever! Jensen would smoke JC any day!

Your just a gangbanger, CyberP, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKYbXZE5EV8

Can JC do this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8tLuaR3lX4

I found an article about spector here, http://wccftech.com/warren-spector-creator-original-deus-talks-human-revolution-mankind-divided-halflife-cancelled-project/

He's crying about the violence...LMFAO. Here's his reddit rant, http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/34fdjb/hi_i_am_warren_spector_a_game_developer_from/

No.

CyberP
28th Jun 2015, 11:36
That's 4 quality posts right there. Out of 8, you've got a great average.

Ah, but how many of them are "classic" quality?


I agree with you but I've watched others play who don't have the "explorer" mentality and they can't navigate it...few of my friends have even finished the game
.
Then the game isn't for them. Catering to short-sighted players is how you get compromised design.


There are still console elements in this new game.

Modern elements, not console.

residentx
28th Jun 2015, 17:43
Adam looks like a true sociopath on the second screenie!

This is what it is...this is the direction Square Enix is taking on all their games...just look at Tomb Raider....Just Grisly violence.
Adams not working for a corporation now...he's a mercenary now...


Then the game isn't for them. Catering to short-sighted players is how you get compromised design.


The goal of all companies is to "grow" their base. The game has to be profitable, right?

Just to make some comments about "short-sighted" all my friends who couldn't get through DE:HR has reinstalled it after seeing the DE: MD video.

ADDED: asdsdasdSDasdSD

CyberP
28th Jun 2015, 21:41
The goal of all companies is to "grow" their base. The game has to be profitable, right?

"Businesses should compromise their product because money."

Poor defense, especially when Deus Ex 1 was profitable without the elaborate marketing campaigns.
But hey, it happens every day in any industry, compromised (and sometimes dangerous as a result) products & services for the sake of greater profits, that is.

e-LE0ycgkBQ

You star in this vid. A freshly-grazed cow ready for the milking. You're the guy in the hat about 35 seconds in.

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 00:16
This is true, CyberP but you are looking at only the negative. Promotion is a fundamental part of life....Deus Ex won't last forever.

CyberP
29th Jun 2015, 15:26
"This is true, CyberP but you are looking at only the negative."

Absolutely. The balance has shifted some; too much negativity. They aren't the worst out there. Human Revolution was decent and clearly had a lot of effort and love put into it. However, still excessive compromise (or incompetence) present, and this one looks to feature even more so.

"Deus Ex won't last forever"

It will remain relevant as long as it deserves to. As long as there are the people to consume and create in its image (and not distort the image like SE/EM). I'm not going anywhere yet.

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 15:34
Just wait for the game...you guys are criticizing it at "Alpha" stage. This game at Alpha is better than other games at final...

CyberP
29th Jun 2015, 15:45
You're right, it is a little too early to declare it unworthy. I'm sure there will be a lot to love, but I'm not impressed with the gameplay I have seen so far and it is definitely compromised in some respects, this is certain.

Irate_Iguana
29th Jun 2015, 18:45
Just wait for the game...you guys are criticizing it at "Alpha" stage. This game at Alpha is better than other games at final...

A stab wound might be better than decapitation, but neither are something I wish to experience. The game has to convince and not merely be better than something else.

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 19:18
You're right, it is a little too early to declare it unworthy. I'm sure there will be a lot to love, but I'm not impressed with the gameplay I have seen so far and it is definitely compromised in some respects, this is certain.

Jensen is a mercenary now...he's not working at desk job in a corporation...things are going to be different.

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 19:21
A stab wound might be better than decapitation, but neither are something I wish to experience. The game has to convince and not merely be better than something else.

Irate Iguana, how does a "game" convince you? I think these kind of comments are just ridiculous for a game that is still 6+ months away...

CyberP
29th Jun 2015, 19:32
Irate Iguana, how does a "game" convince you? I think these kind of comments are just ridiculous for a game that is still 6+ months away...

Semantics. You knew what he meant.

As for your mercenary comment, you were basically a merc in DX:HR. It wasn't a game of pencil pushing 9-5.

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 19:44
Semantics. You knew what he meant.

As for your mercenary comment, you were basically a merc in DX:HR. It wasn't a game of pencil pushing 9-5.
Edited my post:

Damn this forum. What browser are you guys using to navigate this? I'm using IE11 and I can't reach the quote button now.

CyberP, Jensen was Chief of Security at Sarif, http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Adam_Jensen. He got dragged into this because of the kidnapping of Megan Reed. He had access to free nupoz and augments. Now he's own his own...different world when you have to pay for everything yourself...

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 19:47
He's not a full merc now..he's working for the pigs crimebusting, http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Task_Force_29

68_pie
29th Jun 2015, 21:49
I'm using IE11

Explains a lot.

residentx
29th Jun 2015, 23:00
I got the same problems in chrome too...this is an SE web design issue.

http://1drv.ms/1IHGTxK

Irate_Iguana
30th Jun 2015, 17:46
Irate Iguana, how does a "game" convince you? I think these kind of comments are just ridiculous for a game that is still 6+ months away...

Brushing on the topic of semantics for a moment, I did include the word "game" purposefully. I view any and all commentary by the devs to be mostly meaningless. There can be (and usually is) a world of difference between what is promised, hyped, and sometimes showcased and what actually makes it into the game.

Semantics aside, a game can convince by showing you that it delivers the specific elements required. What elements that are depend on the type of game and the gamer that views the game. For a Deus Ex game I'm watching for different gameplay elements than if I were viewing a Command and Conquer sequel.

These comments might seem ridiculous to you, but in game development terms there isn't a hell of a lot of time left. Besides, HR has shown us that they are loath to make any but the tiniest changes to the game. Last time it was very much a case of What You See Is What You Get. They are repeating some of the mistakes of HR so we are left to question what did the actually improve?

residentx
30th Jun 2015, 17:57
Hey Irate Iguana,

I appreciate you taking the time to reply but I want to make sure these comments you've made above are final. Take 24 hours and review your comments. I want to give you a professional courtesy before I reply with mine.

xaduha3
1st Jul 2015, 04:59
EMP frag grenade (sic)

FrankCSIS
1st Jul 2015, 05:15
Things got a little bit weirder.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Jul 2015, 22:00
Damn this forum. What browser are you guys using to navigate this? I'm using IE11 and I can't reach the quote button now.

I have to use the TR skin for everything to work for me. :hmm:

residentx
1st Jul 2015, 22:24
Hi Lady, Are you talking about the Tomb Raider Skins? Also, I wish I could just login once and not have to relogin again. I have to go through two logins for it to stick.

residentx
1st Jul 2015, 22:27
Hi Irate Iguana,

So let's revisit your past two comments. In your second comment you used the word "semantics" which I found humorous. I found it humorous because your past two comments had little meaning/substance...

Here's your first comment:


"A stab wound might be better than decapitation, but neither are something I wish to experience. The game has to convince and not merely be better than something else."

Comparing the Alpha Demo to a stab wound or decapitation is an inappropriate comparison...in my humble opinion. Also, did you watch the gameplay demo in 1080p on youtube? I thought Arkham Knight might be the gold standard this year for games but I was pleased with the first look of DE:MD.

But moving along, for whatever reason(s)(I'm assuming) you didn't like the Eidos Alpha Demo so you feel there's work to be done but you didn't communicate what would be satisfactory specifically. Sometimes, people reply quickly so I asked for clarification because I felt your overall statement lacked power..."better than something else" is how most people make decisions. Examples, jobs, girlfriends, computers, ISPs, etc.

I wondered for a moment what world you live in. In the US, we have lots of people complaining all the time just to complain but they don't vote, they don't know how our gov't works, they don't understand the issues. The unwritten rule of living is to "be part of the solution", right?

It's okay to complain but add value...when you just complain just to complain that "communicates" something about you and you don't even realize it.

So then you went and posted another comment with the word "Semantics..."


"Brushing on the topic of semantics for a moment, I did include the word "game" purposefully. I view any and all commentary by the devs to be mostly meaningless. There can be (and usually is) a world of difference between what is promised, hyped, and sometimes showcased and what actually makes it into the game.

Semantics aside, a game can convince by showing you that it delivers the specific elements required. What elements that are depend on the type of game and the gamer that views the game. For a Deus Ex game I'm watching for different gameplay elements than if I were viewing a Command and Conquer sequel.

These comments might seem ridiculous to you, but in game development terms there isn't a hell of a lot of time left. Besides, HR has shown us that they are loath to make any but the tiniest changes to the game. Last time it was very much a case of What You See Is What You Get. They are repeating some of the mistakes of HR so we are left to question what did the actually improve? "

I have more questions and comments so let's continue...

The purpose of a game studio is to produce games, right? Promotion is a natural activity in this process but you said this "I view any and all commentary by the devs to be mostly meaningless" WHY? I think you tried to convey that your clever by stating promised vs. hype comments but when you use words like "Any" or "All" these flag your credibility.

Is any and all commentary by the devs meaningless? Who can best represent THEIR interests?

"Semantics Aside..." Let's explore your comments further...the next paragraph I hoped you would rewrite because it was all wrong. Your still talking generalizations and have staked no position...and you contradict yourself with these three sentences...


"Semantics aside, a game can convince by showing you that it delivers the specific elements required. What elements that are depend on the type of game and the gamer that views the game. For a Deus Ex game I'm watching for different gameplay elements than if I were viewing a Command and Conquer sequel."

I liked the specific elements comments but then you went back to the subjective comments in you next sentence and then you made a poor comparison again to close out the paragraph.

Deus Ex is an RPG and Command and Conquer is an RTS, right? What specific elements are YOU looking for? WTF?

Your final paragraph...


"These comments might seem ridiculous to you, but in game development terms there isn't a hell of a lot of time left. Besides, HR has shown us that they are loath to make any but the tiniest changes to the game. Last time it was very much a case of What You See Is What You Get. They are repeating some of the mistakes of HR so we are left to question what did the actually improve?"

I don't think your comments are ridiculous but I do wish they were better worded. I agree that there isn't a lot of time in game development. Did you ever listen to the dev commentaries for DE: HR? They talked about the challenges they had with DE: HR. They specifically mentioned that they created too much story to be represented by the game. They cut out lots of stuff to make the delivery deadline. They were not able to do what they wanted completely for the game. Personally, this was the biggest takeaway I got from the DE: HR Commentary. In the end, we got a great game that took into consideration these 3 factors(time, money, and resources).

In closing, I just think it's wrong to so be so ungrateful/unappreciative/critical. Game development is hardwork. Nobody has to do anything, right? They posted the video to promote but to also solicit feedback to give gamers the game THEY WANT.

Is that such a bad thing? Seek understanding and less platitudes...break rule 30 and explore risk and grow up. This will be the best Deus Ex ever. I waste no time thinking otherwise and look forward to December 2015.

P.S. I hope they never do a remake of Deus Ex: The Original. Personally, I don't believe they could ever satisfy the unreasonable demands of the masses for that game. I think it's really unfair to compare these two game brands. Game Developers today have access to resources that whole studios couldn't buy or find then. Example, the HPZ840 workstation(1TB System RAM, 12 GB Video card, etc.).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Jul 2015, 22:36
Hi Lady, Are you talking about the Tomb Raider Skins? Also, I wish I could just login once and not have to relogin again. I have to go through two logins for it to stick.

Hi. Yeah, I am using the TR 9 Light skin.
As for the log in issue, its best you ask admin in this thread:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=4172&page=11
Good luck. Hope you get it sorted.

residentx
1st Jul 2015, 22:44
Hi. Yeah, I am using the TR 9 Light skin.
As for the log in issue, its best you ask admin in this thread:
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=4172&page=11
Good luck. Hope you get it sorted.

THANK YOU!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Jul 2015, 22:50
You're most welcome.
Let us know if the TR9 Light skin works for you. :thumb:

residentx
1st Jul 2015, 22:52
It Works...

Irate_Iguana
2nd Jul 2015, 20:16
Oh man, an old school rant. Haven't had one of those in a while. Let's buckle up and roll out.



I found it humorous because your past two comments had little meaning/substance...

I'm in good company then.



Comparing the Alpha Demo to a stab wound or decapitation is an inappropriate comparison...in my humble opinion.

Then it is a good thing that I didn't compare the Alpha demo to a stab wound or decapitation. I was commenting on your position that this game is good because it looks better than other games at release. Or at least, that is what I inferred from your post. It was not a statement on the quality, or lack thereof, of the demo. I could have used other terms, but stab wounds and decapitations seemed appropriate on account of the large knives Adam has for hands.



Also, did you watch the gameplay demo in 1080p on youtube?

Yep. Doesn't really matter how shiny the graphics are. All that really matters is gameplay. The rest is icing on the cake.



But moving along, for whatever reason(s)(I'm assuming) you didn't like the Eidos Alpha Demo so you feel there's work to be done but you didn't communicate what would be satisfactory specifically.

No need to guess. I made my comment on page one. Which is a fair amount of pages back, I admit. Let me link it (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=156764&p=2132730#post2132730) for you.



I wondered for a moment what world you live in.

“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”



So then you went and posted another comment with the word "Semantics..."

Very astute. I like the word semantics. It is significant. Also it was a callback to CyberP's post and that train of thought.



The purpose of a game studio is to produce games, right? Promotion is a natural activity in this process but you said this "I view any and all commentary by the devs to be mostly meaningless" WHY? I think you tried to convey that your clever by stating promised vs. hype comments but when you use words like "Any" or "All" these flag your credibility.

If I wanted to be clever I would point out that it would be "you're" instead of "your", but I didn't, so I won't.

I don't have credibility. I'm an anonymous voice behind the avatar of a reptile, not a peer reviewed expert in my field. My opinions are my own and voiced for my amusement. They won't convince anybody no matter how cleverly worded they are. It would be a mistake to regard this board as a serious sounding board for the devs. It is a promotional tool only. It used to be a pretty hated promotional tool, but I don't know if things changed after HR.

My position has always been that dev comments are mostly meaningless. I've stated it multiple times in the past. The way I see it there are several reasons for this. First of all is the fact that the game is not yet finished. Changes are made at any stage and a feature that is in one week could be out the next. Secondly (or perhaps more accurately called 1b), until the game ships time constraints could lead to something that has been in for years (mentioned in quite a few comments even) being cut at the last moment. Thirdly, they can't speak their mind. Everything is tightly controlled by marketing. They decide what they can talk about. They decide if they have to hype a feature. Lastly, and I know this is not a valid reason for others, I don't know them so I don't know what they mean when they use descriptive language to promote a gameplay element. "This game has lots of different paths to your objective" is a meaningless phrase unless you have a large enough reference to know that "lots" means 2 for them.

Why do I still listen to devs comments? Because it gives me a vague idea of the direction the devs want to take the game in. Whether they get there depends on the suits. Closer to release it can be used to nail down small gameplay elements that will be in because there would be no reason to eliminate them at that point.



Is any and all commentary by the devs meaningless? Who can best represent THEIR interests?

Their interests don't exist with corporations this large. Management and marketing decide their interests. All they can do is quit if they don't like the direction the game is going in. If they do you won't hear about it. They still want to work in the industry and it would be foolish to get others in the industry on your bad side by airing dirty laundry.



the next paragraph I hoped you would rewrite because it was all wrong.

It was brief, not wrong. If you wanted clarification you could have asked. Instead you opted to write what amounted to a vague threat.



Deus Ex is an RPG and Command and Conquer is an RTS, right? What specific elements are YOU looking for? WTF?

Different elements depending on the type of game. Hence choosing two examples that aren't in the same genre. If I were looking for the same specific elements among all game types I would have listed them. I could have listed the ones I want for these two games, but I chose not to because I wanted to be brief.



Your final paragraph...

Not my best work. I feel no shame in admitting it. They can't all be Pulitzer material. I refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Nobel prize for literature.



I don't think your comments are ridiculous but I do wish they were better worded.

If you want clarification on a point you are free to ask.



Did you ever listen to the dev commentaries for DE: HR? They talked about the challenges they had with DE: HR. They specifically mentioned that they created too much story to be represented by the game. They cut out lots of stuff to make the delivery deadline. They were not able to do what they wanted completely for the game. Personally, this was the biggest takeaway I got from the DE: HR Commentary. In the end, we got a great game that took into consideration these 3 factors(time, money, and resources).

No, I did not. For a very simple reason; quite a lot of dev commentary is the same. It mostly follows along the lines that you described in your post. They take an element that they think the public received poorly, say that it wasn't up to par because of time/money constraints, and vow to do better next time.

Also I don't like watching video commentary. I read much faster than people speak and watching 30 minutes of film for 5 minutes of reading annoys the hell out of me. Besides, something about Dugas rubs me the wrong way and I can't stand video of him talking.



In closing, I just think it's wrong to so be so ungrateful/unappreciative/critical. Game development is hardwork. Nobody has to do anything, right? They posted the video to promote but to also solicit feedback to give gamers the game THEY WANT.

They want me to BUY the game. They are selling me something. Why would I be grateful or appreciative about that? They chose to make money by making a game with the DX name. They are marketing it to me. Why shouldn't I be critical about that? This is not a charity. They are in it to make money. This video was pure promotion. A marketing decision. Cleverly designed to make sure that it contained the elements that the suits and focus tests think will sell. Asking for feedback is just an easy way to make people feel better about the game via the IKEA effect.

I do have to praise the Squeenix marketing team. As frustrating as I find their approach they are good at what they do. We saw that with HR and they look to be even more in control with MD.



I waste no time thinking otherwise and look forward to December 2015.

And you shouldn't think otherwise. Certainly not because of the words of some anonymous reptile on the internet. Unless you find something you dislike you should very much look forward to the release of the game. Again, I'm not here to convert. I simply like giving commentary on one of my favourite game series and having a discussion with other forumites.



I hope they never do a remake of Deus Ex: The Original. Personally, I don't believe they could ever satisfy the unreasonable demands of the masses for that game.

We agree on the topic, but differ on the reason.

residentx
2nd Jul 2015, 20:36
I got your message...I'm gonna reply to this but I can't today. I do want to address one thing now. The "vague threat" was a little too much. What can I do to you here on an virtual posting board? A threat is a threat. There is no such thing as a "vague threat."
I didn't threaten you with any action.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Jul 2015, 23:09
I do have to praise the Squeenix marketing team. As frustrating as I find their approach they are good at what they do. We saw that with HR and they look to be even more in control with MD.
Yeah. Marketing can be enjoyable when it is done well.
I really liked the Sarif Industries viral website for HR... particularly when it was later "hacked" by Purity First. :naughty:

FrankCSIS
3rd Jul 2015, 03:54
I refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Nobel prize for literature.

A reptile after mine own heart.

I usually can't read rants and counter rants. By pure chance, Brian Setzer was blasting "Go Go Godzilla" in those headbanging headphones of mine, and this argument took an unexpected twist for the fabulous.

Life is full of wonderful moments.

68_pie
3rd Jul 2015, 10:09
Yeah. Marketing can be enjoyable when it is done well.

I...don't think that was his point.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
3rd Jul 2015, 14:23
I know. ;)

residentx
6th Jul 2015, 02:46
I love holiday weekends...I get a chance to clean up the backlog.

I deleted the original Deus Ex today. I was quite satisfied with myself that I didn't even flinch when I deleted the local

content out of STEAM.

I recovered almost 10GB of file space!

The rest is for Irate_Iguana

I took some time and re-read the board before posting so I apologize for the delay.

You made some good commments above. I want to add to these:


They talk a lot about combat being improved, but I'm not seeing it. Adam's movement is still not all that and

popping up and popping some moles looks to be a bit clumsy still. Enemies aren't using any tactics whatsoever. They just

bum rush and fire wildly. No grenades, group tactics, covering fire or intelligent aug use to be seen.

It would be nice if they improved this but I thought DE: HR had some good tactics. In the Missing link, the guards

called out to an unknown stranger(s) during searches, inspected, notify each other in various ways. Remember this "...Sound

likes a bomb...ya I know...let's check it out..."

Better, improved group tactics would be better but if they "waited" for you...


I don't like the fact that the guy said that they'll be constantly reminding us that they've got multiple paths and

solutions. I want to figure that stuff out for myself, not having my hand held. I'm a grown reptile, I can think for

myself, thank you very much. The fun in exploration is discovery.

I changed my mind on this now...your right. If you're a thinking person you shouldn't have to be told your options...


I'd say that the claustrophobic feeling and cluttered environments is essential to set the scene for that particular

place in the game.

Right on with this comment too. The claustrophobic feeling & clutter is a psychological tactic...creating an environment

that gives no information and makes planning more difficult...the reducing of augmented people to convey they are less than

human...this could be applied to the gamer(typically young and inexperienced) too if you can think on thatlevel.


I don't really see any improvements either, looks pretty much exactly the same as HR convo-battles, this isn't

necessarily a bad thing though, just not an improvement.

I hope they don't modify this too much. I don't want this to be like SWTOR where all your doing is making/talking choices

for 15-25 minutes per interaction. I didn't like hearing the words "...if you had won the conversation..." during

commentary of DE:MD. This bothered me personally. Having people give you stuff doesn't mean you "won" in my opinion...


Moving on to your more recent comments...


My position has always been that dev comments are mostly meaningless. I've stated it multiple times in the past. The

way I see it there are several reasons for this. First of all is the fact that the game is not yet finished. Changes are

made at any stage and a feature that is in one week could be out the next. Secondly (or perhaps more accurately called 1b),

until the game ships time constraints could lead to something that has been in for years (mentioned in quite a few comments

even) being cut at the last moment. Thirdly, they can't speak their mind. Everything is tightly controlled by marketing.



I think you need to do some soul searching here. People with low quality products "script" marketing but I don't believe

these studios(EM/SE) want to just take our money and give us crap. I think they want to deliver a high quality product and

periodic communication with the community helps build demand. Personally, I just want to see the progress of the game. I'm

assuming if the game's not ready they won't market it.


No, I did not. For a very simple reason; quite a lot of dev commentary is the same. It mostly follows along the

lines that you described in your post. They take an element that they think the public received poorly, say that it wasn't

up to par because of time/money constraints, and vow to do better next time.

Also I don't like watching video commentary. I read much faster than people speak and watching 30 minutes of film for 5

minutes of reading annoys the hell out of me. Besides, something about Dugas rubs me the wrong way and I can't stand video

of him talking.

You should watch it. I don't watch the commentary of all games or movies I play...only the ones I really enjoyed. I enjoyed

DE: HR so I watched it. Fundamentally, what you said above is true(time/money constraints) but everyone's choices/story is

unique. I watched the DE:HR commentary to learn about the studio, what equipment/tech they used and to see the

personalities/devs behind the game. If you make a great game...people should want to know who you are and I wanted to know.


They want me to BUY the game. They are selling me something. Why would I be grateful or appreciative about that?

They chose to make money by making a game with the DX name. They are marketing it to me. Why shouldn't I be critical about

that? This is not a charity. They are in it to make money. This video was pure promotion. A marketing decision. Cleverly

designed to make sure that it contained the elements that the suits and focus tests think will sell. Asking for feedback is

just an easy way to make people feel better about the game via the IKEA effect.

I think you need to do some reflection here too. All of us can make each others life better or worse. Just because someone

may put something out there that doesn't meet your expectations doesn't mean you have permission to devalue it. People,

teams, organizations bringing choice to you should be encouraged...taking risk is how the world evolves.

If you don't like it, just say nothing...

Finally...


We agree on the topic, but differ on the reason.

What's your reasoning on this? I've played DX1 and I just don't see what all the fuss is about...

I feel the romanticism around DX1 is like Hard core Tea Party conservatives saying they are waiting for the next Ronald

Reagan(moderate). They have this dream/expectation this is based on fantasy. They would not elect a moderate and thus

wouldn't accept Ronald Reagan. This I feel applies to DX1. They want a remake but the remake will never, never live up to

expectations no matter what. Ultimately, they just don't want DX1 to be forgotten which is the real reason why they want a

DX1 remake.


I don't have credibility.

I give you two thumbs up for just acknowledging this. Most people will spend their lives chasing degrees, women,

money/jobs, achievement to try to build this. If you should somehow achieve this...your a loser because you were

manipulated by someone else.

Specom
6th Jul 2015, 06:33
Wow, this post was painful to read. It felt like it came straight out of MS Word.


I love holiday weekends...I get a chance to clean up the backlog.
I deleted the original Deus Ex today. I was quite satisfied with myself that I didn't even flinch when I deleted the local
content out of STEAM.
I recovered almost 10GB of file space!

Achievement Unlocked: Michael Bay fanboy!

Well, the original Deus Ex is not even 1 GB!


I think they want to deliver a high quality product and periodic communication with the community helps build demand.

What? I am seeing more of the same but with further dumbing down of gameplay.

For Deus Ex: Mankind Divided to be a true Deus Ex game, a genuine Deus Ex experience, it would need to do away with bad design that ALL games these days have set a standard for the modern audience.
It would need to do away with press X to instant kill, button prompts on screen, quest markers and arrows, autosaving every two steps, auto-health regeneration, radial menu, scripted events, etc.

This 'we listen to our fans' is never true. I don't trust those game developers out there.


Ultimately, they just don't want DX1 to be forgotten which is the real reason why they want a
DX1 remake.

By they, you mean HR fanboys and some casuals, who want a DX1 remake with updated *shiny* graphics and cos the shooting is very bad so gameplay needs to be modern/casual, and some other reasons.

residentx
6th Jul 2015, 08:04
Wow, this post was painful to read. It felt like it came straight out of MS Word.



Achievement Unlocked: Michael Bay fanboy!

Well, the original Deus Ex is not even 1 GB!

The autosaves and screenshots is how I got to 10GB. Also, not word I use the straight windows text editor :-)

Specom
6th Jul 2015, 08:27
The autosaves and screenshots is how I got to 10GB. Also, not word I use the straight windows text editor :-)

Deus Ex 1 has autosaves? :D

Screenshots don't go into steamapps/common so even if you uninstall the game, the screenshots will stay in a separate folder and will also be present in your steam screenshot manager.

That said, the save files in DX won't be more than 250-300 MB and Steam has a screenshot limit. (probably 1 GB or around)

Isumbarus
6th Jul 2015, 10:17
They won't change this console mechanics because they think they will sell more copies in this way.I heard it in one of the interview they claiming that there are things that they can't change.Ion Storm sold more copies without marketing than they do.
They care only about sales and trash players.

Here in this interview 1:58
XT61XbKOLps

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Jul 2015, 12:27
They care only about sales and trash players.


Healthy sales are important, in any event.
I don't get the 'trash players' comment though. :scratch:

Shralla
6th Jul 2015, 14:53
That said, the save files in DX won't be more than 250-300 MB and Steam has a screenshot limit. (probably 1 GB or around)

Beginning of the game saves are ~5MB. Before the end of Liberty Island, they grow to 10, and keep going up from there until by the time you hit Hong Kong, the saves are 45-50MB. It isn't hard to hit several gigs worth of Deus Ex save files, I myself collected about 8 before I realized what was going on.

Isumbarus
6th Jul 2015, 15:35
Healthy sales are important, in any event.
I don't get the 'trash players' comment though. :scratch:

You know exactly what I am talking about.Things like radar ,objective markers,no mapping system are key components of Human Revolution and Mankind Divided.Don't play stupid.You all just killed the philosophy of Deus Ex.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Jul 2015, 15:57
You know exactly what I am talking about.

If I knew exactly what you were talking about, I wouldn't have asked.

Irate_Iguana
6th Jul 2015, 22:18
I took out the line breaks in your post. It made quoting sections awkward in the forum editor.



It would be nice if they improved this but I thought DE: HR had some good tactics. In the Missing link, the guards called out to an unknown stranger(s) during searches, inspected, notify each other in various ways. Remember this "...Sound likes a bomb...ya I know...let's check it out..." Better, improved group tactics would be better but if they "waited" for you...

You know, I keep forgetting about The Missing Link. I played it twice, but for some reason it stuck with me a whole lot less than the vanilla game. I liked the DLC and it did tackle a few problems I had with the base game, but just falls to the back a bit.

From what I remember the AI barks were more interesting in TML (and they desperately needed work), but their tactics were the same as those of typical Belltower guards in HR.



I hope they don't modify this too much. I don't want this to be like SWTOR where all your doing is making/talking choices for 15-25 minutes per interaction. I didn't like hearing the words "...if you had won the conversation..." during commentary of DE:MD. This bothered me personally. Having people give you stuff doesn't mean you "won" in my opinion...

I haven't played SWTOR so I'm not sure if the choices you make during those interactions actually carry consequences. If you're just selecting responses for half an hour in order to make the interactive cutscene go away that's just horrible. If they influence current and future gameplay elements there is at least a reason to stay interested.

A bit off topic, but in DX there was a lot more dialog with the non-crucial NPC's than there was in HR. A hell of a lot more. I'd like to see that background conversation returning. Talking with Leo Gold after arresting him, speaking to Juan Lebedev on the jet, the conversation with everyone's favourite bartender, and even the background conversations of the various common troopers. It made the world feel more alive. Much more than the standard two-line barks we got out of most NPC's in HR.

When it comes to the conversation battles I do agree with you that they don't have to happen every time and with everyone. Not everyone should be influenced. Certainly not every "boss" type enemy. Certain quests and enemies just don't lend themselves to a thrilling convo battle. For instance, I can't imagine talking to Barrett and getting him to see the error of his ways and go live a life as social worker in the poorer parts of Belarus. That being said, I do like to see more of them. They were a bit too sparse in HR. If I remember correctly it's: Zeke Sanders, Wayne Haas, Sarif, Tong Si Hung, Taggart, Sandoval and Darrow. There is some minor CASIE stuff in a quest or three. That's not exactly a sound social pillar. More of the detective-type sidequests could have done with a convo battle and a few of the NPC's on the main quest should have been interrogated via convo battle.

I also agree with you that winning a social battle should not be the objective. They are treated too much like the third way out of a jam. It's combat/sneak/social bonus for quite a few of the encounters during HR and that's selling the mechanic short. There isn't enough investigation, interrogation, misdirection or manipulation going on. It's all set up too much like a battle and too little like a conversation.



I think you need to do some soul searching here. People with low quality products "script" marketing but I don't believe these studios(EM/SE) want to just take our money and give us crap. I think they want to deliver a high quality product and periodic communication with the community helps build demand. Personally, I just want to see the progress of the game. I'm assuming if the game's not ready they won't market it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply that the marketing guys are cackling and rubbing their hands while they are discussing how they can sell us a **** in a box (or at least, most of them probably aren't). I'm certain that they are trying to sell us the product that they think focus-tests best and will result in maximum sales. This does not necessarily have to be the level best that the game can be. Features are expensive and sometimes things have to be cut.

The interviews are pretty scripted. It is not unusual in the industry for there to be a marketing suit standing in the room and OK-ing questions and answers. You can actually see that going on here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06bdjDXh9oE#t=5m33s). It's not a specific dig at Squeenix.

If you followed the news regarding the PC version of Batman: Arkham Knight you'd see that companies can and will market products that they know are defective.



You should watch it.

I will, but not all at once. There is only so much Dugas I can take before it becomes painful on a mental, physical and spiritual level.



Just because someone may put something out there that doesn't meet your expectations doesn't mean you have permission to devalue it. People, teams, organizations bringing choice to you should be encouraged...taking risk is how the world evolves.

If you don't like it, just say nothing...

I don't agree with that train of thought. The line "If you don't like it, just say nothing" is taught to children because they have yet to develop the filter that allows them to assess how and when to provide negative feedback. This has filtered into our collective consciousness to mean that negative feedback is unwarranted. It is the most valuable type of feedback you can receive. We learn from our mistakes much more than from our successes. Give praise when appropriate, note mistakes when they are made and tailor your feedback to your audience.



What's your reasoning on this? I've played DX1 and I just don't see what all the fuss is about...

I'm against remakes on principle and not because I think that they will somehow destroy my ability to enjoy (or physical copy of) the game.

Firstly, remakes are lazy. They kill innovation in companies and are nothing more than cashgrabs based on nostalgia and the hard work of others. This should be reason enough to loath them.

Secondly, games are a product of their times. All elements that went into a game came together to make it what was. Those dated graphics are just as important as the story that feels a bit too much like an x-files episode and the gameplay elements that aren't quite there. You aren't doing the game a service by painting over the ugly parts with some modern tech and hoping that the good parts hold up. You need the entire package to get the entire experience.



Ultimately, they just don't want DX1 to be forgotten which is the real reason why they want a DX1 remake.

That would be nice, but I think you have a more romantic view of their request than is realistic.

NUMBER8ISGREAT
7th Jul 2015, 02:25
What's your reasoning on this? I've played DX1 and I just don't see what all the fuss is about...

I feel the romanticism around DX1 is like Hard core Tea Party conservatives saying they are waiting for the next Ronald

Reagan(moderate). They have this dream/expectation this is based on fantasy. They would not elect a moderate and thus

wouldn't accept Ronald Reagan. This I feel applies to DX1. They want a remake but the remake will never, never live up to

expectations no matter what. Ultimately, they just don't want DX1 to be forgotten which is the real reason why they want a

DX1 remake.

Q4T. People need to stop living in the past, holding on to these fossils and get with the program.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Jul 2015, 07:37
There is only so much Dugas I can take before it becomes painful on a mental, physical and spiritual level.

:eek: This must be a cry for help. It must be because you are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this. :thumb:

Irate_Iguana
7th Jul 2015, 14:12
:eek: This must be a cry for help. It must be because you are only minimally modified. Omar can help you correct this. :thumb:

Let's start of slow and modify Dugas first. We'll see how things go from there.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Jul 2015, 14:23
So what do you think he needs to modify?

vallux
7th Jul 2015, 20:26
Extensive genetic modifications to allow for exquisite twirly moustaches.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jul 2015, 08:16
Haha. :D

Irate_Iguana
8th Jul 2015, 13:55
So what do you think he needs to modify?

Let's start with all of him and work our way up from there.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jul 2015, 19:21
As you apparently suffer from mental, physical and spiritual pain... then it is you who needs Omar assistance. :friends:
But seriously. I'm curious. Why so much disdain?

Irate_Iguana
9th Jul 2015, 18:56
Why so much disdain?

It's a reaction I have to certain people. He's probably a very reasonable chap who has never kicked a puppy and says "hello" in a cordial way to his neighbors each morning. I just don't like him. I've got the same reaction to Bono, Michael Schumacher and a few others.

MasterTaffer
9th Jul 2015, 23:48
That's how I feel about my neighbors. Why did they move so close to me? What're they after?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Jul 2015, 07:32
Hehe. :D