PDA

View Full Version : Combat feedback..



Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 00:18
I understand that humans need to work as a team but something needs to be done about the skill gap when it comes to evading the vamps.. I like this game but one part that really bothers me is when playing as a human there is no way to out live or survive 2 vampires (or more) vs 1 human... I am not asking to be able to kill them, I just think it should be easier to get away and regroup with teammates (or just plan survive).. I want skill to determine the outcome.. Not some predetermined system saying you cant out run, dodge, your enemies..

Everything else comes down to skill other than CQC.. There is where if you get caught 2 (or more) vs 1 you have no way of out of it.. Vampires have tools to escape 2 or more humans but humans dont other than scouts going invis.. No matter how much I strafe, dodge, or run their autoattack and dodge covers that ground..

Either take away dodging from vampires or give humans escape tools or CQC skills that determind the outcome by skill please..

TombRaiderJake
10th Aug 2014, 02:05
From what it sounds like, you aren't used to this kind of combat. While I do agree that there are some balancing issues, if you stay as a team, it should be fairly easy to fend off the vampires. My suggestion is to stay indoors. This makes pouncing and kidnapping harder and forces them to filter in. The humans also squad-spawn so if you die (assuming the rest of your team is getting killed) they shouldn't spawn too far away from you.
When I'm playing as a vampire, if someone is sprinting, my melee can't catch up with them and I can't sprint, only climb, which I think is a fair enough trade-off.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 02:32
From what it sounds like, you aren't used to this kind of combat. While I do agree that there are some balancing issues, if you stay as a team, it should be fairly easy to fend off the vampires. My suggestion is to stay indoors. This makes pouncing and kidnapping harder and forces them to filter in. The humans also squad-spawn so if you die (assuming the rest of your team is getting killed) they shouldn't spawn too far away from you.
When I'm playing as a vampire, if someone is sprinting, my melee can't catch up with them and I can't sprint, only climb, which I think is a fair enough trade-off.

I've been gaming probably longer than you have been alive.. I've played many different games.. Games like this have been done since the 90s. Ever play a game called Heretic 2? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_kMjpU0NyI My first console was the Atari 2600.. My first PC was a commodore 64.. There are games that play like this one.. Its just sometimes what is old is new..

Also yes if a vampire gets in your face and all your skills are on cooldown and both of you have the same amount of health you will not get away.. You cant out sprint them.. Dodge and their charge LMB attack (or if you spam it) will catch you and it doesnt help that it somewhat auto corrects in your direction..

Ins4n31tY
10th Aug 2014, 03:29
Hey there... i actually gota agree with that written down here.

its quiet too easy to hunt humans down as a vampire with a simple autoattack. i havent been playing this game before so i just went in for some hours now.

shortly after some rounds been played vampires in fact seemed to be too easy it didnt took that much time to find out, that you are literaly dead if one vampire gets into close range.

i tried to dodge in melee or outsprinting them aswell nothing properly works currently, it also seems like theres alot of autoaim included directly aiming up on the humans lol.

im currently not sure if the game is well balanced, for the moment i get alot of rounds without a single death by using the reaver.
i just always put 1 stealth bomb inside the team, pounce on some1 up and just use the evasion skill to escape by almost not geting damaged at all lol.

n somehow even if i become damaged i do not need to worry my life regenerates o.O and as a human i dont have lifereg or even the ability to simply run away.

the only thing i made in a horrible game resulted up on a 4on3 was to hide in some house with the other 2 teammates while we could simply not fight 4 vampires as 3 humans.

as vampires weve gone for a 21-16 or something like that and thats just with 3 vampires vs 4 humans, we just did the same thing like i called above... put some stealth grenades into the team and get the big guy running into while 2 reavers go for a pounce and then escape, wait for healthregen do that again and again till they are dead.

im not completly sure how balanced the game is at all, im really not but for some1 like me playing for 14 years now shooters mostly it doesnt take that much time to get such feeling up on a game if the balance does work or not.

Castner
10th Aug 2014, 04:28
I've been gaming probably longer than you have been alive.. I've played many different games.. Games like this have been done since the 90s. Ever play a game called Heretic 2? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_kMjpU0NyI My first console was the Atari 2600.. My first PC was a commodore 64.. There are games that play like this one.. Its just sometimes what is old is new..

Also yes if a vampire gets in your face and all your skills are on cooldown and both of you have the same amount of health you will not get away.. You cant out sprint them.. Dodge and their charge LMB attack (or is you spam it) will catch you and it doesnt help that it somewhat auto corrects in your direction..


Funny thing.....the devs have stated before that humans actually tend to be stronger than vampires due to many things (terrain, utility, etc). It becomes more noticeable how strong they are when you get better skills (whip/sticky grenade for hunter, sun bomb/aoe heal for alch) and the power difference is more noticeable when you have a good team on your side that realizes that certain classes are better at killing other classes and you can change at any time during the match after death. For instance hunters are strong against reavers, alchs are strong against tyrants, scouts are strong against sents.


also never dodge away from them or to the side. Dodge toward them and use whip to stagger them or herd them toward your teammates. Never be by yourself as a human as if you are inexperienced you will lose.




as vampires weve gone for a 21-16 or something like that and thats just with 3 vampires vs 4 humans, we just did the same thing like i called above... put some stealth grenades into the team and get the big guy running into while 2 reavers go for a pounce and then escape, wait for healthregen do that again and again till they are dead.


How my team would counter that is with 1 scout 2 hunters and 1 alchemist. Scout would deal with the sent as their cast animation lock is their greatest weakness. Warbow is the scouts best friend.

Hunters would take whip and sticky grenade. Whip to stagger reavers and sticky grenade to toss at tyrant as he runs past.

Alch would take sun grenade and aoe heal bomb.


Tends to work every time.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 04:40
Funny thing.....the devs have stated before that humans actually tend to be stronger than vampires due to many things (terrain, utility, etc). It becomes more noticeable how strong they are when you get better skills (whip/sticky grenade for hunter, sun bomb/aoe heal for alch) and the power difference is more noticeable when you have a good team on your side that realizes that certain classes are better at killing other classes and you can change at any time during the match after death. For instance hunters are strong against reavers, alchs are strong against tyrants, scouts are strong against sents.


also never dodge away from them or to the side. Dodge toward them and use whip to stagger them or herd them toward your teammates. Never be by yourself as a human as if you are inexperienced you will lose.

With all due respect.. I am not talking about abilities/skilss.. I am not talking about teamwork mechanics or how good teamwork is done.. I am talking about scenarios where your teammates are dead or you just spawn far away from your teammates. Where 1 or 2 vampires are chasing you down and all your bilities are on cooldown.. When they're in CQC.. You will not get away no matter how much skill at playing the game you have. (unless you are a scout and get lucky with vanish). I have dodged vampires and sprinted only to still die to them spaming dodge and the LMB attack.. No matter how much skill I have dodging and sprinting they get you..

The only time I get away is when they are just as scared of dying as you are and they run off or climb a wall..

TombRaiderJake
10th Aug 2014, 04:42
I completely agree with Castner. There's been more than a few games where my team was decimated by the humans (most of the time it was on The Fane, I think)

Castner
10th Aug 2014, 04:46
With all due respect.. I am not talking about abilities/skilss.. I am not talking about teamwork mechanics or how good teamwork is done.. I am talking about scenarios where your teammates are dead or you just spawn far away from your teammates. Where 1 or 2 vampires are chasing you down and all your bilities are on cooldown.. When they're in CQC.. You will not get away no matter how much skill at playing the game you have. (unless you are a scout and get lucky with vanish). I have dodged vampires and sprinted only to still die to them spaming dodge and the LMB attack.. No matter how much skill I have dodging and sprinting they get you..

The only time I get away is when they are just as scared of dying as you are and they run off or climb a wall..

If you have two vamps it comes down to skill and class really. Hunts can whip both vamps stagger them and a sticky grenade will take out about 500 health and vamps tend to cluster together when focusing one target.

If you dodge toward them you have a head start to start sprinting and get away (my suggestion is to try it you will be surprised of the results most of the time). In the end it all comes down to staying together as a group and communicating with your team. This game does have an in game voice chat,might want to utilize it if you are not running with friends to better coordinate.

Not or sure how long you have been playing but vamps skill ceiling is not very high and humans require skill to learn how to play effectively and once you learn their nuances. You notice how weak vamps truly are. Tyrants are a joke at higher levels of play. Bolas shut them down quite easily in mid jump. It's embarrassing.


I completely agree with Castner. There's been more than a few games where my team was decimated by the humans (most of the time it was on The Fane, I think)


The maps lean heavily to favoring humans unfort as many people come into this game think they can be the MVP and when it comes to humans that doesn't work well. If you have the mindset that one guy that knows what they are doing is all you need to win, then ummm.....hate to break it to the new guys but that way of think will change fast or you'll have a really bad time in game.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 04:58
If you have two vamps it comes down to skill and class really. Hunts can whip both vamps stagger them and a sticky grenade will take out about 500 health and vamps tend to cluster together when focusing one target.

If you dodge toward them you have a head start to start sprinting and get away (my suggestion is to try it you will be surprised of the results most of the time). In the end it all comes down to staying together as a group and communicating with your team. This game does have an in game voice chat,might want to utilize it if you are not running with friends to better coordinate.

Not or sure how long you have been playing but vamps skill ceiling is not very high and humans require skill to learn how to play effectively and once you learn their nuances. You notice how weak vamps truly are. Tyrants are a joke at higher levels of play. Bolas shut them down quite easily in mid jump. It's embarrassing.

NM you seem to be goimg on and on about teamwork and things that I am not talking about... You are insulting me by doing this btw.. I am talking about one basic component to the combat. One where skill doesnt determine the outcome.. I am not talking about hutner whips or scouts camo or any ability.. I am talking about being able to out maneuver someone through skill of using a keyboard/mouse or controller. If all my abilities are on cooldown and I have 2 or move vamps on me should I just stand still and say go ahead and kill me because the game mechanics will not allow me to escape?

Castner
10th Aug 2014, 05:01
NM you seem to be goimg on and on about teamwork and things that I am not talking about... You are insulting me by doing this btw.. I am talking about one basic component to the combat. One where skill doesnt determine the outcome.. I am not talking about hutner whips or scouts camo or any ability.. I am talking about being able to out maneuver someone through skill of using a keyboard/mouse or controller. If all my abilities are on cooldown and I have 2 or move vamps on me should I just stand still and say go ahead and kill me because the game mechanics will not allow me to escape?


Simple short answer...shouldn't have gotten separated from your group. Together you're strong...alone you will fall unless you have the greater skill which only comes with time. You essentially want a get out of jail free card...short answer...no. Humans are strong enough as it is which you will find out at higher levels of play. One day of play does not make you a master of all that the human race has to offer in nosgoth.

if you die and get separated, get to them as quickly as possible in the shortest route. Or communicate with your team on where to meet up at. This is a team game. Learn that.

SNurGmcDurg
10th Aug 2014, 05:22
Castner said it well, but I think there is another element to be taken from this discussion. And that is just simply putting more layers of skill into the game. As it stands, once you get into a ranged position as a human, you just fire away. And once you get close as a vampire, you just LMB/CQC ability away and get results.

I think there should be more layers to it, to the extent of each faction having its advantage, but the individual player still has to put effort towards seeing those benefits, and not be so easily handed success. Dodging in between melee strikes should be essential to your CQC effectiveness, and I think that idea would be exemplified if humans could dodge more frequently, and if vampires melee attacks didn't lock on and propel them forwards so much. That being said however, I think vampires should be able to get a little bit MORE momentum when they chain their actions, so dodge rolling and THEN attacking will give you a boost more so than just clicking LMB.

I'd just like to see more reliance on the individuals skill in combo-ing their actions together to get results. I think that would lead to even better combat and gameplay, cause right now as it is, it feels very... Rock Paper Scissors esk. It is an asymmetrical game, but you can still allow each side to have some semblance of protection and effectiveness in the areas of combat they are not designed for. For example, vampires can simply climb buildings to hide from ranged attacks, but humans are still slow on the draw in CQC, which I think is where allot of the discussion on changing around the combat comes from.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 05:25
Simple short answer...shouldn't have gotten separated from your group. Together you're strong...alone you will fall unless you have the greater skill which only comes with time. You essentially want a get out of jail free card...short answer...no. Humans are strong enough as it is which you will find out at higher levels of play. One day of play does not make you a master of all that the human race has to offer in nosgoth.

if you die and get separated, get to them as quickly as possible in the shortest route. Or communicate with your team on where to meet up at. This is a team game. Learn that.

So being able to out play someone by using skill is a "get out of jail free card"... got it... Ok I am done trying to talk to you..

Castner
10th Aug 2014, 05:41
So being able to out play someone by using skill is a "get out of jail free card"... got it... Ok I am done trying to talk to you..

If you don't like people having differing opinions than you, might I suggest you become a hermit or adopt a pet rock.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 05:57
If you don't like people having differing opinions than you, might I suggest you become a hermit or adopt a pet rock.

Its not an opinion when you are stating it as fact.. Not only are you stating your opinion as fact, you are telling me what my opinion is by saying I want a get out of jail free card..

PencileyePirate
10th Aug 2014, 06:11
NM you seem to be goimg on and on about teamwork and things that I am not talking about... You are insulting me by doing this btw.. I am talking about one basic component to the combat. One where skill doesnt determine the outcome.. I am not talking about hutner whips or scouts camo or any ability.. I am talking about being able to out maneuver someone through skill of using a keyboard/mouse or controller. If all my abilities are on cooldown and I have 2 or move vamps on me should I just stand still and say go ahead and kill me because the game mechanics will not allow me to escape?

Discussing movement without discussing skills or teamwork is pointless; game-play comes from co-existence of these multiple mechanics. It's silly to envision a hypothetical scenario where movement is isolated from other mechanics and skill is not an issue, because it's just not real.

I'd also like to refute your idea that the mechanics will not allow you to escape. Pay attention to your teammates' HP and if they're dead in the water it may be a good idea to start putting distance between you and the vampires (providing support fire during retreat when possible.) This should help to avoid getting into the worst-case scenario you describe. If you have enough distance before being focused you can often run to your teams' re-spawn location before dying.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 07:31
Discussing movement without discussing skills or teamwork is pointless; game-play comes from co-existence of these multiple mechanics. It's silly to envision a hypothetical scenario where movement is isolated from other mechanics and skill is not an issue, because it's just not real.

I'd also like to refute your idea that the mechanics will not allow you to escape. Pay attention to your teammates' HP and if they're dead in the water it may be a good idea to start putting distance between you and the vampires (providing support fire during retreat when possible.) This should help to avoid getting into the worst-case scenario you describe. If you have enough distance before being focused you can often run to your teams' re-spawn location before dying.

Its not a hypothetical scenario when it happens in every match.. There are many ways that you get separated from you team.. Sentinal picks you up, a well placed nade, you spawn far away... etc etc etc.. You should have a fighting chance to at least get away and regroup. When you get into CQC with a vampire and your abilities are on cooldown you should be able to at the very least escape..

Vampires can do it by climbing walls.. As a vampire I never have that feeling of well there was nothing I could do there to get away.. I do get the feeling as a human though..

OnlyLogic
10th Aug 2014, 11:00
Humans are stronger in the game. Vamps are easier. That makes people THINK vamps are stronger and, thus, play better as vamps. If you're alone, you WILL die. If you're with your team, you MAY die. If you're good, you'll avoid death. I don't see why everyone's getting so worked up here. Seems pretty simple to me.

Razaiim
10th Aug 2014, 12:41
Back in alpha various changes to auto aim, lunge distance, the slow effect on melee, Dodge distance, sprint speed possible for a lone human to evade an attacking vampire. This was a problem since it goes against one of the games main design philosophy, and it also made it stupid easy to deny kills to the vampire team and regroup. It also sucked alot of the fun out since it went from humans and vampires killing each other to vampires chasing but never catching humans.

Currently the above is much harder to perform for good reason, and not for extended chases. It is still possible to use corners and vertical obstacles to put some distance between you and them but they'll eventually catch up or a skill will come off CD.

jmts16
10th Aug 2014, 16:19
I guess it ultimately comes down to design choices.

The devs think that a game based on assimetrical meleeVSranged combat is a good choice (when in fact it isn't), therefore designed the game around: you catch a vampire at long range as a human -> you pretty much killed him; you get to melee combat as a vampire -> you pretty much killed the human.
As it is, it is logical that a human can't do much to escape the vampire (afterall he had the trouble getting to melee): if humans could escape easily (they CAN escape, it just hard) then it would be meaningless since humans would restore their range and easily dispatch the vamps.

Now, why do I think a full meleeVSranged combat is a poor choice? Because if you give either side too many options, the other starts feeling weak. Vampires have plenty of advantages (huge gap closers, flying units, height advantage, invulnerability skills, etc) to close the gap, instantly gaining the upper hand.

Humans on the other side can do little but gather up, camp at somewhere defensible (camping is always bad in any game) and do little but wait for the vampires to engage on them. Sure they put up the pain when vamps show their ugly heads and can survive somewhat at close range (by taking advantage of the low self-damage this game has to use explosive skills at close range and using DoT skills like fires and curses), but when vampires can easily engage, disengage and avoid the humans (via height), the battle becomes what was said: a match of Rock-Paper-Scissors between who uses their skills more appropriately with the right timing.

I dislike the existence of hard counters in games like this. In a game like TF2 you have what you would call hard counters (a Sniper easily kills an Heavy, a Spy easily dispatches a Sniper, a Pyro quickly takes care of the Spy, etc) but there's enough skil involved (even if it usually involves changing the loadout) that a Sniper can take care of a Spy using Jarate or a SMG or a Spy shooting a Pyro down using his superior ranged weapons.

The point is: this game needs more oportunities to demonstrate skill, relying less on hard counters.

RainaAudron
10th Aug 2014, 16:31
Now, why do I think a full meleeVSranged combat is a poor choice?

I think the actractive side of Nosgoth is because it is asymmetrical. There are already so many f2p games, we donĀ“t need another copy of those. I really like that devs are going their own way.

jmts16
10th Aug 2014, 17:06
Assimetrical is very different from meleeVSranged.

Look at AvP. All 3 sides had different strengths and weaknesses, but simply making this game meleeVSranged then humans will always lose since vampires have too many gap closing skills (you know since melee>ranged at close range?) and sticking with this philosophy will ensure that this game won't last.

Not even close to it.

EDIT: and worse than combat, i show this game handles ping. Ping>80? Unplayable.

Manakar84
10th Aug 2014, 18:17
If vampires couldnt easily avoid range attack like its hard for humans to avoid/escape CQC then I would say that is fair but all vampires have to do to avoid range is stand behind objects/cover.. There is nothing for humans to stand behind in CQC and even if you do run around a corner the vampire has very strong gap closers..

BTW I am not saying vampires are OP and humans are weak.. I am saying when it comes to this one aspect of the combat something should be done imo...


It like if some devs made a fighting game like street fighter and they gave the grappler all the tools to get in and made it so the ranged character have very little tools (no escape tools to get back in range) to deal with the grappler at close range.. So the ranged character would have to play perfectly to keep the grappler at bay but there are so many tools for the grappler to get in that it becomes unbalanced...

OnlyLogic
11th Aug 2014, 02:32
What about if you just made the ranged dude deal a ****ton more damage? Sounds balanced to me.