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Obisher
15th May 2015, 12:02
First of all, let me tell you in short my life story. I finished college recently and am currently unemployed. I earn some money from time to time through some part-time jobs. But still, I have no problem with spending money on things I like and want to support. Just for reference, I've been playing this game since founders packs became available (end of March 2014) and overall I've spent around 120€ on this game. Which equals two AAA games. And to be honest, I would have no problem spending three times as much once I finally get a job.

I am aware that this game is in Beta and I really have a lot of tolerance for bad matchmaking and various other game-breaking bugs. I believe it will all get sorted out one day. But the thing that really pisses me off are these real-money related stuff. I wrote about it recently, but let me do a summary once again...


Release of first evolved skins – prior to their release, class lvl cap was 20. Then, without any announcements, class lvl got raised to 25 in that patch. Some people were really furious, I was just disappointed, because I had my Reaver on lvl 20 and I was hoping to get that skin for free and then buy evolved skin for Tyrant or Sentinel just to show support for the game and awesome job they did with the skins. I ended up buying the evolved skin for Reaver.

Molten event – we were all used to buying exotic items with gold. Then all of a sudden, it wasn't possible on this event. Just for the record, I already own everything that can be purchased with gold and currently sit on 85k gold with nothing to spend it on. I know these items could be obtained as random drops, but since I was out of town for few weeks and could only play during the last two days of molten event, I had next to no chance of earning any molten items as drops. So I bought one on the last day. And then a day or two AFTER the event ended I got 2 molten drops in the same day... fml

Chests – I won't go into too much detail here, but I think it's lame people are forced to buy chests if they want the skins. It would be better if skins were available in chests that drop as well, so people would be more motivated to play. I have no problem with buying keys with runes only, but I'll probably give more detailed feedback about this in the chest feedback thread.

In all these cases, just a warning few days before would be enough, at least for me. Because I wouldn't have crushed hopes when I start the game after patching.


Now I don't know about other people, but to me these decisions seem like someone spit in my face. I heard Square Enix has the reputation of being a greedy company and these business moves really seem to do that reputation justice. So could someone from Square Enix please answer me why do they keep doing this? Is it so **** difficult to write a blog post few days before which would warn us about upcoming changes and details? Really, at least we would be warned about the changes so it wouldn't feel so cash-grabby. At least in my opinion.

Oh and one more thing... I saved up some money and I was planning to buy GTA V when it goes on discount, and use leftover money for runes. But in light of recent events, I'm considering buying it for the full price right away and not spending any money on Nosgoth. So dear Square Enix, could you give me a reason why I should stick with my original plan and invest some more money in Nosgoth and postpone my GTA V purchase? I hope this example shows you how your faithful customers are starting to question if spending money on your game is a good idea. Think about it for a bit...

TL;DR – just my rant about Nosgoth's business decisions, although I hope someone from SE reads the complete thing.

Blackatana1
15th May 2015, 15:01
Meh, lots of companies earn money on cosmetic items in game. I simply don't care about how different or cool my costume or weapon looks. I could rock the standard look for the entire time I play Nosgoth and not care at all. If you want to spend money on it that's cool too. If you don't then don't.

You'll only see me screaming if they introduce spending real money to get actual in game advantages.

So the idea is you want a game that is free to play, not PTW, and everything can be unlocked via gameplay. How exactly do you think the developers will make any money? Off of just banners? Do you really think people spend enough on that alone to actually pay all the people that work on the game?

Wumtluth
15th May 2015, 15:31
You'll only see me screaming if they introduce spending real money to get actual in game advantages.
The bonuses for weapons can be quite useful, so i consider them an advantage and if you were to always play with two magical weapons/special ability, even if you won every single game (unless you had a really high score) you'd eventually run out of money recharging them, i tried this once and had to pay a total of 110 gold after a single game to recharge both items (human and vampire) which is not something you can make without a booster.

Obisher
15th May 2015, 15:33
You'll only see me screaming if they introduce spending real money to get actual in game advantages.

Let's hope that day never comes.


So the idea is you want a game that is free to play, not PTW, and everything can be unlocked via gameplay. How exactly do you think the developers will make any money? Off of just banners? Do you really think people spend enough on that alone to actually pay all the people that work on the game?

I'm aware that the game is F2P and the developers need to make money. But the biggest problem I have is skewing information. Those examples I mentioned, like evolved skins. They said skins will be available for people who reach max. lvl with that class, which was 20 at that time. So everyone was expecting they'll get the skins when they reach lvl 20. If they said something like: "These skins will be available when you reach max lvl with the class, which will be raised to 25 when skins come out." some people would still be unhappy, but at least we would know what to expect. Or for moltens: "We decided to make them obtainable as random drops or runestone-only purchase. It's a fair trade since it's only cosmetic FX". Is it so hard to write one or two sentences like this?

I remember both of these times... at first people were slightly confused, and then they became angry. Because you have certain expectations due to experience from past events or something the devs said, and when they implement it you realize it's kinda different from what they presented.

All I'm asking for is a bit more communication regarding real-money purchases. As I said in my OP, that stuff they've done few times already makes me (and probably some other people) question should I spend more money on the game... And that's quite a big problem for F2P game.

EDIT: forgot to mention one more thing. The fact that the game is getting worse with every new patch isn't really helping. No matter how tolerant I am of the bugs and bad MM, the things I described in OP are like adding salt to injury.

zzott93
15th May 2015, 15:47
I think they've made mostly legit decisions so far. The only thing that really bothered me was Widow Kiss being an item you have to open a crate for. That pair of pistols is actually really good.

cmstache
15th May 2015, 15:50
**Before I say this, let me reiterate the fact that as a SE mod I am a volunteer and have ZERO influence on Nosgoth's business policies**

That being said:
While I can definitely see both sides of this. I do have to agree that communication is probably better for everyone. Whether it's acceptable and accurate or not, F2P games are ALWAYS accused of being Pay2Win by some of the target audience. Some games are more abusive of this than others, and while I could technically make a case that some cosmetic items could have a minor influence on game play, it's negligible. Square Enix and Psyonix are under no obligation to notify people prior to patches of changes to their policies. However, SE should, imo, always inform customers of changes if they can to avoid this accusation and keep it to a minimum as it will only help the game (and it's "free" to do).

Yorinar
15th May 2015, 17:58
Whether it's acceptable and accurate or not, F2P games are ALWAYS accused of being Pay2Win by some of the target audience. Some games are more abusive of this than others, and while I could technically make a case that some cosmetic items could have a minor influence on game play, it's negligible.

While it's true that some people will always accuse F2P of being P2W (like people who say that unlocking abilities with runestones is P2W), I personally think Nosgoth has been very good about keeping this in check. Like many other F2Ps, it's more about pay-to-look-cool and pay-to-skip-grind. Those are fine. I love paying to skip grind because time is more precious to me than the amount of money they are asking to skip grind.

One thing I am not fond of though is backdoor gambling, like with the loot crates. You pay real money for a shot at RNG -- it's a slot machine and it's bad profits. If they want to introduce it, they need to take care about how they do it and from what I've seen on the forums that has not been the case. They could learn a lot from Valve on this score.

Loot crates should at a minimum:

1.) always include something rare that is not a duplicate of something you already own AND warn you if there is nothing new rare that you can get from the crate
2.) always be the same or better value than buying contents individually -- if a loot crate contains only a skin, the cost of the crate and the skin if bought separately should be the same or cheaper for the crate

Once you start down the path of gambling, you inevitably get people who are swept away by the experience. Perhaps they are gambling addicts, perhaps they are young and naive, or perhaps they just really wanted one particular item they couldn't get any other way. And this leads to people who find they have spent a wad of cash and have very little to show for it. These people quit the game and heap whatever hate they can on it whenever possible. So you get a short term boost of cash at the expense of losing a customer and possibly getting negative things spread around that might influence other people to not pick up the game. When it happens enough, it can snowball.

So it's very important to consider the mechanics of crates and player (customer) regret before releasing it. It's very possible to make crates that are rewarding and valuable and provide the extra fun from the "gambling" experience. When you do it that way, everyone wins and more money is spent on the game in the long run.

Cristari
15th May 2015, 18:56
First of all, let me tell you in short my life story.

I stopped reading here was there anything important in this post to discuss?

Obisher
15th May 2015, 19:04
I stopped reading here was there anything important in this post to discuss?

Not really :rasp: Just my rant about lack of communication about some money related stuff... If you think that's important just skip the first paragraph of my post.

riccetto80
16th May 2015, 10:17
people, why you complain so much?

nosgoth is not paytowin, period.

they pushed lately to make more money yeah... and me too i didint like the random things and so on but, this is how all game publisher behave... and nosgoth is kinda soft about...
try to play a ubisoft game, for exsample: ghost recon phantom

they not only push each time new VERY OP payd gun, but after some time they "rebalance" and your old op gun turn useless, but hey, there are new op guns!!!

this is payto win and this is spit in the face of your payng customers...

nosgoth didint do this...

so please dont complain too much, try other f2p game (beside the 100000000000 user one, who can have other practice because of the super big user player base) and you will see there is nothing to cry about nosgoth atm,at least not about p2w or about "spit in face of customers"... there is a plenty to cry about meele changes to vampires, bad balance and fps drops and general bad performance of the game.

KaininitePriestess
16th May 2015, 11:15
Nobody in this thread was saying the game was P2W.

corpus_callosum
16th May 2015, 13:11
And now it has unique weapons that cannot be obtained without spending cash. Nosgoth avoided pay-to-win this far, but for how long it will be so?



try to play a ubisoft game, for exsample: ghost recon phantom

they not only push each time new VERY OP payd gun, but after some time they "rebalance" and your old op gun turn useless, but hey, there are new op guns!!!

Great example, i use to be in that crapfest, and that is true. pleasy, PSY, dont do that, half of your player base will take off into sunset =/

Screwby-Dew
16th May 2015, 14:28
And now it has unique weapons that cannot be obtained without spending cash. Nosgoth avoided pay-to-win this far, but for how long it will be so?

Event though those weapons are not better than a mysterious one that you can get from random drop. The only thing different is the visual effect.

Don't forget that "The Forge" and the "Trading System" are going to be up soon. You really don't have to spend one single cent in this game if you don't want to.

Jallford
18th May 2015, 11:35
It's a really good free game with difficult financial challenges ahead of it, I don't begrudge them anything if they decide to charge more for cosmetic items or change how you buy items. It's a hard business model to get right without intruding into gameplay, Nosgoth currently does it well.

Game continuing to exist > mild disappointment from players during beta.