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GenFeelGood
12th May 2015, 21:36
Please help me to get over my frustrations with the Hunter, I won't even play the class at this point. These frustrations are born from the class being too strong when it comes to team play. I understand this a team game and everybody should be allowed to play what they want (I will never advocate class limiting); but playing against three or more hunters isn't the same as when you play against three or more of anything else. I could rant on and on about the frustration and share the rather nasty opinion I have when it comes to this; but I am looking to get over my contempt for the Hunter.

Nerfing has been done and then redone on multiple occassions, the majority of people now say they don't want a thing about the hunter changed and that he is in a good place as is. So please, everyone that says the hunter is fine and stacking him doesn't tilt things in favor of that team, tell me how to counter this. Tell me what vampire bests counters this and how to play them, so that I might actually enjoy playing in games where this occurs and finally lay my anger to rest.

Thank You

Cody_The_Wiser
14th May 2015, 16:20
Get gud. Hue hue hue.

Seriously. I can't think of anything else. The Hunter is a very strong class and can serve almost any purpose you want him to. You will just have to improve your plays. I'm content with the Hunter being where he is. He can do a lot but he can't do AS good as some of the other classes. His AoE is nowhere near an Alchemists. Vanguard is better 1v1. Scout is obviously better at sniping and chipping. He also has a fair few CC abilities. Hunter is fine.

zzott93
14th May 2015, 16:50
Get gud. Hue hue hue.

Seriously. I can't think of anything else. The Hunter is a very strong class and can serve almost any purpose you want him to. You will just have to improve your plays. I'm content with the Hunter being where he is. He can do a lot but he can't do AS good as some of the other classes. His AoE is nowhere near an Alchemists. Vanguard is better 1v1. Scout is obviously better at sniping and chipping. He also has a fair few CC abilities. Hunter is fine.

This.
The hunter is fine, and when you think of it the game is balanced around hunters and reavers. Stun them back, cut them off and abuse their relatively short effective range to get close. As long as your team attacks at the same time you shouldn't get a -4 fight.

Khalith
14th May 2015, 17:00
This.
The hunter is fine, and when you think of it the game is balanced around hunters and reavers. Stun them back, cut them off and abuse their relatively short effective range to get close. As long as your team attacks at the same time you shouldn't get a -4 fight.

Hunter is definitely not fine, neither is Reaver. But Reaver is currently overshadowed by overpowered humans, I'm firmly against any kind of nerfs to vampires until the human damage is brought under control then the nerfs will be fine. With a class like Hunter that stands far and away better than the others, the solution is not to buff everything to that level, it's safer to nerf the outlier accordingly and bring everything down with it.

zzott93
14th May 2015, 17:54
What do you base this on, Khalith? You don't seem to bring up any constructive evidence for your arguments.
The game is also designed for the humans to be a bit stronger than the vampires, so keep that in mind as well.

Khalith
14th May 2015, 18:16
What do you base this on, Khalith? You don't seem to bring up any constructive evidence for your arguments.
The game is also designed for the humans to be a bit stronger than the vampires, so keep that in mind as well.

I take it you're new, don't mean that in an insulting way of course. But I've been playing the game since alpha, several times in those old forums, throughout closed beta, and livestreams the devs themselves have openly acknowledged that the humans are too strong at mid to higher level gameplay. Not slight advantage mind you, but completely dominate. The more frequent human nerfs compared to vampire nerfs that we have seen since those old days also serve as proof the devs think the humans are too strong.

The issue however, is that since vampires tend to be more dominant in lower level games, nerfing the humans or buffing the vampires will result in completely destroying any sense of balance in those lower skill games. Again, this is from the devs themselves not me. I also disagree on the game being designed for humans to be a bit stronger, going by the words of the game devs the humans don't have a slight advantage at higher levels of gameplay, they have a significant advantage along with acknowledgments of the Hunter being the outlier.

Personal experience has shown me all of the above to be absolutely true. Not to say the vamps don't have mechanics that needed adjusting, Kick 1.0 and the recent (mild) nerfing of the Tyrant Charge + Throw combo and the being able use Jump indoors bug shows that the devs recognize vampires did have some OP mechanics as well.

Arydious
14th May 2015, 18:17
I think the main point of this thread is missed. The main point is many teams choose to stack 3 or more hunters for a reason, that's because they work really well. ESL level humans teams mainly consist of 3 hunters and a scout or 4 hunters. Generally when one class is favored more than the others it's a sign it's slightly out of line.

Alchemist in General have better AOE but they sacrifice direct chip at a range to get the close up aoe, Humans want to chip from a ranged position, so many prefer to use Hunter with explosive shot, 3 or more hunters using explosive shot is all the aoe you need for most things.

The vanguard is a great tank but i don't believe he is better in a 1v1 his axes are a lot easier to dodge than a hunter and the hunter bola wins battles by itself. Also vanguards sacrifice ranged chip for a bit more damage at close range.

Scout obviously the best ranged chip in the game, with a good team a scout is godlike, however when the vampires come in the scout begins to suffer. He needs to land all of his shots to win a 1v1 and most times a vampire can easily abuse them in a 1v1. A hunter's ranged chip is not as good but still pretty good, and they are amazing up close.

Prophet is really good, it can chip at a range, has amazing abilities to use up close, all around great close. I believe it's the best 1v1 class. Where it suffers is all of it's weapons have a much smaller clip than the hunter and often times battles last long enough for the prophets low clip to be abused. (I honestly think the prophet is one of the few classes that can stand up to the hunter)

The hunters abilities mixed with it's very large clip from the bolt thrower are just amazing, 3-4 hunters focus firing with those things will wipe most vampires, specially with smart use of explosive shot and bolas. By the time most vampires get in on good hunters they have been chipped down to 75% health and are about to get bola's or explosive shot and be very hurt.

Can I think of a viable vampire composition to beat them, not really I think many composition can do well against them, but I feel the vampires are required to play near perfect against a team of hunters, while the hunters have a fairly large margin for error, that they can still win with.

If i had to suggest some balance changed to the hunter, it would be to taper off some damage from the explosive shot and or reduce clip size of bolt thrower. Nothing to major in my eyes cause I feel they are really close to where they need to be.

***Disclaimer this is mainly my own opinion formulated from hundreds of hours of play, and watching Nosgoth. I may not be 100% correct on all of the things mentioned but I feel it's a good continuation to the conversation.

zzott93
14th May 2015, 18:58
I take it you're new

I'm currently leading a top 4 EU team, thank you very much.

Your arguments are only your own opinions and experiences and that's not how to propose legit arguments. If hunter was such a strong class when stacked, why isn't that showing in the current high level meta?

PencileyePirate
14th May 2015, 19:13
I'm currently leading a top 4 EU team, thank you very much.

I think maybe he was referring your comment about humans being designed as slightly stronger, since during early closed beta the devs were quite vocal about wanting both factions to be equal in strength.

Now, back on topic: I personally don't think hunter stacks are an issue.

zzott93
14th May 2015, 19:25
I think maybe he was referring your comment about humans being designed as slightly stronger, since during early closed beta the devs were quite vocal about wanting both factions to be equal in strength.


Perhaps. I remember me and a friend talking to Saikocat about this back in January on steam chat. When we asked her about why the humans where stronger she replied that "It's an asymmetric shooter". However I don't have a screencap of this, so I can't back it up.

Khalith
14th May 2015, 19:25
I'm currently leading a top 4 EU team, thank you very much.

Your arguments are only your own opinions and experiences and that's not how to propose legit arguments. If hunter was such a strong class when stacked, why isn't that showing in the current high level meta?

So in other words you're doing well, but I was talking about when the devs said the two sides were supposed to be equal.

As for the meta, we are seeing it. The Dead Sun Zenith in the EU finals used three hunters in their game against that Iron team that used two hunters. Does that not count?

Edit: Also, I believe you misunderstood my statement above. Everything there is just a repeat of what the devs have told us the overall balance is like, I was merely stating that my own experience with the game showed it to be correct.

Arydious
14th May 2015, 21:24
I'm currently leading a top 4 EU team, thank you very much.

Your arguments are only your own opinions and experiences and that's not how to propose legit arguments. If hunter was such a strong class when stacked, why isn't that showing in the current high level meta?

I am pretty sure it is shown in high level meta, your parent team Dead Sun Zenith often runs 3-4 hunters, Many NA teams run 3-4 hunters. I don't know how to make that reflect anymore than it is. I don't see any team stacking 3-4 of any other class besides hunters.

zzott93
14th May 2015, 22:17
The class choices on that map was likely based on the few chipping capabilities and small amount of room in the fights on that specific map and game, as well as teams running constellations that rendered most other human classes less viable in a close fight. Zenith usually runs all sorts of crazy lineups, but at least two hunters are standard, yeah.
It doesn't mean 3+ hunters are always viable, but a few hunters don't have a direct counter. They're the perfect alrounder unlike classes like alchemist or vanguards who are more situational. They can be considered core classes vs utilities if you will. If you nerf the hunter you'll force teams into running classes that are less viable for the jobs they need to handle. It doesn't mean four hunters is a good idea.

That's basically my issue with a hunter nerf.

Arydious
15th May 2015, 14:12
DSZ does run a lot of things. I like DSZ Hexmeh is awesome, but also you know when it's crunch time for them and they need to perform they are stacking hunters. Doesn't matter what map it is, if they need to perform they start stacking hunters.

I put a big post earlier in the thread going over some of the classes.

zzott I imagine you are really opposed to a hunter nerf because it's your main, and you don't want your main to become less viable. For me it's not about nerfing the hunter but bringing everything in line. Hunter clearly has a small advantage currently.

The only thing I could thing of is to lower the clip size of the hunter, because that's the main problem. Hunters can chip and fight the main fight often times without reloading, where as any other human class would run out of ammo mid fight and the vampires would kill them.

My bolt thrower has 41 bolts per clip, that's ridiculous. When you consider each shot does 65 damage you"re looking at 2665 potential damage there, not counting use of explosive, and bola. If I need to reload I can just bola the one on me and reload.

SilentVirtue
15th May 2015, 16:48
DSZ does run a lot of things. I like DSZ Hexmeh is awesome, but also you know when it's crunch time for them and they need to perform they are stacking hunters. Doesn't matter what map it is, if they need to perform they start stacking hunters.

I put a big post earlier in the thread going over some of the classes.

zzott I imagine you are really opposed to a hunter nerf because it's your main, and you don't want your main to become less viable. For me it's not about nerfing the hunter but bringing everything in line. Hunter clearly has a small advantage currently.

The only thing I could thing of is to lower the clip size of the hunter, because that's the main problem. Hunters can chip and fight the main fight often times without reloading, where as any other human class would run out of ammo mid fight and the vampires would kill them.

My bolt thrower has 41 bolts per clip, that's ridiculous. When you consider each shot does 65 damage you"re looking at 2665 potential damage there, not counting use of explosive, and bola. If I need to reload I can just bola the one on me and reload.

Hey guys, so you ask is class stacking a problem? and the honest answer is no, its a symptom of class imbalance.

All members of DSZ are required to be able to play 2-3 classes per side, and hopefully even more soon.

the reason we ran 3 hunters 1 scout was to counter the specific strategy of Iron fist and their specific 2 reavers with kick + deciever + tyrant

Since iron fist rarely use summoner or deciever much, we have no need for an alchemist, if they threw anything other than the same composition and strategy at us, we would change it, but currently we have no need to as they (like almost every other team) rely on smokes, and the direct counter to that is explosive shot and the current strategy that they employ.

However, when iron fist decided to use multiple hunters, we have a specific strategy to counter it, the more hunters they pile on a team, the more our composition shifts towards another type of strategy. And once they stop using 2 smokes and start using a different composition, we will adapt our style to deal with the different techniques thrown at us.

So in counter to your "Doesn't matter what map it is, if they need to perform they start stacking hunters." You mean when we play against the same composition and have a huge amount of success that we don't want to change it up because they don't?

Evil goats use 3 prophets, ive seen bible camp using vanguard hunter hunter prophet effectively, While I'm not saying that hunter isnt op, basing the thoughts off the DSZ/IF games every week isnt enough to look at, you need to consider the top 8 teams atleast.

in no particular order

DSZ, DSK, Filthy P , Dead P , Psyche, Evil goats, bible camp, Notice me senpai all use different set-ups and strategies, but if you look at how many of them run 2+ smokes, you will understand why people run 2+ hunters

zzott93
15th May 2015, 17:16
I agree with Silent completely



zzott I imagine you are really opposed to a hunter nerf because it's your main, and you don't want your main to become less viable.
Have you seen me play? I rarely every play Hunter in DSK because we don't ever have a need for more hunters than we usually run. I don't have a main, but I usually take a poking-prophet role.

GenFeelGood
15th May 2015, 19:25
Please SilentVirtue, what is this strategy you speak of? It is what I am after with this thread, something more constructive then making myself better (as if there is a way to get good enough to go against 3 or more hunters on your own) or team blitzkrieg (good luck depending on that if you go solo in the matchmaker). I am all ears (or eyes given this format) and eager to learn, just let a rip.

Arydious
15th May 2015, 19:55
Silent,

I am not saying class stacking is a problem. My direct contribution to this thread is about hunter being slightly out of line than the rest of the humans. I can look at many NA teams in the ESL who run 2+hunters, as well as look at DSZ and IF who normally run it. I am also seeing a lot less teams running double reaver over other compositions. I look at not just EU teams but NA, and for the most part many teams run a lot of hunters.

Now to cover another very important part of this thread. I only point out DSZ matches currently because they are seen a lot, with both silent and Hexmeh Streaming.

Zzott
You can see above I feel the Prophet is one of the few classes that stands up against a hunter, the only thing the hunter truly outshines it on is low clip size.

SilentVirtue
19th May 2015, 15:06
Please SilentVirtue, what is this strategy you speak of? It is what I am after with this thread, something more constructive then making myself better (as if there is a way to get good enough to go against 3 or more hunters on your own) or team blitzkrieg (good luck depending on that if you go solo in the matchmaker). I am all ears (or eyes given this format) and eager to learn, just let a rip.

Apologies for the late response Gen, As you may notice I'm quite busy and don't always get chance to respond, what i will do however, is try to explain the different team compositions in a very basic way for humans,

Humans have 4 main "strats"

Tall -- They stack up pretty close to one another, its a good counter to vamp pick comps as a dominate mind or senti grab is usually suicide, but obviously suffers from AOE

Wide -- Humans play much wider, making the effect of AOE abilities (smoke, airstrike , Abyssal, Charge etc) much less effective, this counters AOE Comp, but suffers to pick comps

Floating -- Humans move as a ball towards specific known locations and move around to try and "kite" the vampires and cause chip as vampires have to re-position constantly, This is weak to catch comps, catch comps usually combine some AOE and some single target, picking off a straggler, or AOE the target once the human moves into a choke point.

poke comp -- Humans attempt to poke and harras vampires with long range weapons and alch shots, pretty good against pick and AOE, but are weak to catch and "ham" comps .. (ham = 2 senti 2 tyrant, maybe add a reaver/dec in the mix)

All 4 of these work, hunters excel at wide and floating comps, but are less useful in tall/chip, so playing lots of hunters means you want to catch them when they are clumped up. or pick them off when they push aggressively.

Typically, teams run a sub-set of each composition able to deal with 2 or 3 of the comps, because vamps do something similar, its all about who you're playing against and who you're playing with.

In public's its a different story, and hunters typically do well, as you cannot rely on your team to position/play correctly, and hunter is the best "all rounder" (imo)

Arydious, i completely agree lots of teams run 2+ hunter, but then vamps run 2+ reaver, so its not uncommon. prophet has two styles of gameplay, one i do not wish to share just yet, as im not 100% comfortable on it, but it fills a role in the team as more support based, but still maintains some dps

GenFeelGood
20th May 2015, 17:57
Thanks SilentVirtue , I will try to apply this in future matches.