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enkaku-silence-
2nd May 2015, 07:48
This is more of a question regarding the issue of leavers during the countdown in the lobby.
I know that Leavers of a full game get banned, but what about those who leave during the countdown?

This occured to me so often. You're waiting for minutes (in Flashpoint and Capture the Body) and then finally that relieving drum beats are heard. But before the game gets started someone leaves and you are back in the lobby waiting again. Frustrating.

If not already, those people should be punished as leavers. But please consider that people leaving a full lobby during the "Pause" after the match should not be affected. Just during the 10 seconds countdown.

KaininitePriestess
7th May 2015, 02:48
Punishing people for leaving a lobby would be taking it way too far. Oftentimes if someone is leaving a lobby as soon as they get in, they've been trying to find a lobby with someone in particular when the "join" or "invite" functions aren't working quite right. Furthermore, they haven't just saddled their team with a severe disadvantage, you just have to wait a minute or two longer. By the time someone comes in and leaves the lobby and disrupts the countdown, there's already probably going to be someone waiting to take that spot.

As well, there are other times when I've seen someone leave a lobby because either they were being a jerk and people called them on it so they ragequit, or someone was being such a jerk that they said "screw it" and decided to get another lobby. These people shouldn't be punished for trying to get into a lobby they get along with better.

Ygdrasel
7th May 2015, 04:03
Seems like overkill. And honestly, I haven't seen the leaver penalty making a huge difference anyway. I'd almost say I see more of them since it was added but I have no data records to back that.

Ghosthree3
7th May 2015, 06:57
I don't see a problem, it's annoying yes, but people leave because they see the teams and decide they are unbalanced or the game will be unfun for them. That's their choice, their last out before committing to the game.

lucinvampire
7th May 2015, 07:35
I agree with Ghost on this one.

I don't think at the lobby stage it should be a punishable offence; there are plenty of reasons for people to leave lobbies prior to games starting.

I usually stick to a lobby unless...
a. recognise player name either that have been offence/abusive in the past.
b. have played against the players in the past and been completely stomped.
c. see esl banners and I run away with my tail between my legs.

I don't think I should personally be punished for not wanting to be insulted in a match or commit to a 20 minute stomp.

There are real world things also why people leave/have to leave a lobby so, the same goes with this imo.

HoopleDoople
7th May 2015, 14:05
This is one of many reasons why a lobby system is a sub-optimal choice. The biggest problem is that lobbies restrict the player pool from which to draw from, resulting in slower match finding and/or worse team balance. But it is also problematic that players can wait to see the teams and avoid any matchup they perceive as unfavorable.


I don't think I should personally be punished for not wanting to be insulted in a match or commit to a 20 minute stomp.

I fully agree that no one should be expected to endure a 20 minute stomp, and yet that is exactly what Nosgoth currently does.

One issue is high skill groups - nothing short of an equally skilled group stands a chance. But Nosgoth is apparently unwilling to split up these groups or at least unable to recognize these groups need split. Presumably the artificial cap of 2000 MMR (a cap so woefully insufficient that even I managed to hit it at least once) results in these players being underrated and Nosgoth assumes the match balance is close enough.

The other issue is that there is no mechanism in place to end a poorly balanced game early. If you enter a match that turns into a stomp your only options are to waste ~20 minutes of your life or leave the match. And leaving the match just creates problems for everyone. You have to wait a few minutes before you can search again, your team loses a (good) player, your enemies have to sit someone (or else risk the entire losing team quitting which is even worse), and some poor player might have to hot join into the stomp.

senjuj
7th May 2015, 15:46
c. see esl banners and I run away with my tail between my legs..
How looks these banners? I will ignore these players because i saw strange players (not average players to TDM), probably esl players or something like that or cheaters.

Ghosthree3
7th May 2015, 22:49
One issue is high skill groups - nothing short of an equally skilled group stands a chance. But Nosgoth is apparently unwilling to split up these groups or at least unable to recognize these groups need split. Presumably the artificial cap of 2000 MMR (a cap so woefully insufficient that even I managed to hit it at least once) results in these players being underrated and Nosgoth assumes the match balance is close enough.
I agree that this is a problem, however it is a necessary problem to avoid bigger problems. Here's why, out of my last ~300 games I've won 290 of them, this was AFTER being on 2000 MMR already. Now let's assume there was no cap and if I recall right that each game was around +-50MMR, maybe a little less. I would now have around 16000 MMR - unless I started earning less over time, even then it would be rediculously high - now I can tell you right now that match making would become a never ending search that would never find enough players to start a game essentially banning me from playing.

If we had 5x the player base we do now it probably wouldn't be a problem, but we don't, so you have to allow outliers to sit in the main pool.

HoopleDoople
8th May 2015, 00:01
I agree that this is a problem, however it is a necessary problem to avoid bigger problems. Here's why, out of my last ~300 games I've won 290 of them, this was AFTER being on 2000 MMR already. Now let's assume there was no cap and if I recall right that each game was around +-50MMR, maybe a little less. I would now have around 16000 MMR - unless I started earning less over time, even then it would be rediculously high - now I can tell you right now that match making would become a never ending search that would never find enough players to start a game essentially banning me from playing.

If we had 5x the player base we do now it probably wouldn't be a problem, but we don't, so you have to allow outliers to sit in the main pool.

I forgot my usual qualification that addresses this very issue. There has to be mechanisms in place to ensure that high MMR players can still find matches. One simple option is to treat any MMR over 2000 as if it was 2000 when it comes to searching for a match, but then use the true MMR to balance teams.

MMR should probably also be increasingly difficult to raise past 2000 to allow the current team balancing mechanics to work. Otherwise with too high of MMR a player would always be saddled with the worst 3 players on the server, regardless of if this was called for or not.

Ghosthree3
8th May 2015, 00:38
Otherwise with too high of MMR a player would always be saddled with the worst 3 players on the server, regardless of if this was called for or not.

This already happens...believe me.

lucinvampire
8th May 2015, 08:34
I fully agree that no one should be expected to endure a 20 minute stomp, and yet that is exactly what Nosgoth currently does.

Yeah I do understand and agree. Personally once I’m in a game though I’ll play it to the end no matter if I’m getting stomped. I make my choice at the lobby if to stay or go, that’s why I’m not in favour of a penalty at that stage.

I’ll only leave a match if there are toxic players in it once it’s started (I still try to stay though unless it’s real bad) and take the penalty. I do not agree with the penalty fully, I understand it in principle but it’s not so great in practice. I think there needs to be some things to assist it, like maybe a report function if people are being abusive and they get kicked from the match and surrender if the match is really one sided, and these not give you the leave penalty (unless you are the abusive then you should get at least 10 minutes maybe longer :p).

I also agree with you that team splitting should maybe come back enforce (at some level at least) against high skilled groups, unless they play against other skilled groups. It used to at least balance things a bit, but at the same time it used to annoy teams quite a bit. I think though the player base is small and the matchmaking still has a long way to go to sort it out.

These are just my thoughts though. Sorry went off on a tangent there.


How looks these banners? I will ignore these players because i saw strange players (not average players to TDM), probably esl players or something like that or cheaters.

The banners look pretty sweet but way way way scary as you know what’s coming if you stay :(

Ghosthree3
8th May 2015, 08:46
I also agree with you that team splitting should maybe come back enforce (at some level at least) against high skilled groups, unless they play against other skilled groups. It used to at least balance things a bit, but at the same time it used to annoy teams quite a bit. I think though the player base is small and the matchmaking still has a long way to go to sort it out.
I have mixed feelings about party splitting. If we had a big enough community that parties were rarely split anyway because good matchups were found to begin with it would be ok for those outlier games where the matchups sucked. But since we don't you'd be preventing some people from ever playing with each other, if not ever then at least a good half of the time. I'm not ok with that.

lucinvampire
8th May 2015, 12:22
I have mixed feelings about party splitting. If we had a big enough community that parties were rarely split anyway because good matchups were found to begin with it would be ok for those outlier games where the matchups sucked. But since we don't you'd be preventing some people from ever playing with each other, if not ever then at least a good half of the time. I'm not ok with that.

Yeah I’m split (no pun intended) on the team splitting too, but atm as much as the matchmaking tries to work if there is a team with a massive MMR and the only other guys online have low MMR they’ll still finally be matched together and we all know how that ends. It’s a bit of a catch 22 scenario.

…now I’m going to go away and allow this thread get back on topic about lobbies :)

SilentVirtue
8th May 2015, 14:20
I forgot my usual qualification that addresses this very issue. There has to be mechanisms in place to ensure that high MMR players can still find matches. One simple option is to treat any MMR over 2000 as if it was 2000 when it comes to searching for a match, but then use the true MMR to balance teams.

MMR should probably also be increasingly difficult to raise past 2000 to allow the current team balancing mechanics to work. Otherwise with too high of MMR a player would always be saddled with the worst 3 players on the server, regardless of if this was called for or not.

Feel free to come watch me stream doing 2x my entire teams combined score, or just check my vods. It happens, and im not even as good as players like hetsen (who have it even worse)

So when it comes down to it, we change our names and banners just to get games cus people RQ when they see us, and then unless we party up with people were put with people who can die 5-6 times without doing a speck of damage, you can start to understand why we don't want to play solo. Personally, I'd prefer to scrim people, but with the exception of maybe 20 ish teams, there simply isnt anyone to play against.

Ysanoire
9th May 2015, 10:43
Let's not get carried away with the penalties, mmmkay? Punishing people because "they teased me" is a bit too much.

KaininitePriestess
9th May 2015, 10:50
We already have that in place. It's called the "report" function. Though it's anyone's guess how well it works.

Ghosthree3
9th May 2015, 11:12
Feel free to come watch me stream doing 2x my entire teams combined score, or just check my vods.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/544149715414306485/71AAFACE0A63D375189C37F86A7B3AA86199E165/
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/537387624008246715/F8009BD9DFFC4A12365508FF8120C2225273DDA3/

Ugh, just got huge nostalgia for the old scoreboard, how **** perfect was it?

Yorinar
10th May 2015, 03:17
I haven't left a match in the past month or so I've been playing regularly, except when I crash to desktop, which is probably less than a dozen times. But, I completely disagree in a penalty for nosgoth at this point. Given that you might sit in a lobby for a half hour at times, anything that causes someone to not be able to play a game that is already light on players is a loss for everyone.

I'd rather see a reward system that builds up for people who stick with a match. Every five matches you play where you don't leave you get an extra 1% bonus to gold and xp to a limit of +25%. When you leave a match, you lose 1% but you never go below the normal reward amount. So you either get a bonus or you get the normal amount.

It encourages people to stay for the extra reward but doesn't make people who quit because they are getting roflstomped and can't take it, to also close the game entirely. Like in Evolve, even if you left in the lobby once it assigned roles, you'd get stuck with a 1-minute cooldown on rejoining. I just exited the game instead. I'll be damned if I accept punishment from a lousy game I paid my money to.