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calypso-694
29th Apr 2015, 02:24
So ive been rolling this idea around my brain for the past few days and....what if an LOK game was like an RTS? Real Time Strategy.

RTS generally (for those of you who may have been living under a rock for all of your gaming life? doubt it but still) are games like StarCraft, Total War series, the fabulous and still playable Dune RTS games. etc.

seeing as how Nosgoth has branched into a L4D style MP (love it or hate it) its surprisingly works. IMO.

now what if LOK transitioned for at least one game or two as RTS games? think about it....

a lot of fans would like to see the Hylden/Ancients war... what better than an RTS? and even MP one as hylden other as ancient.

and of course the Human Vampire war going on now in Nosgoth could easily be turned into large scale battles via RTS gameplay. picture hundreds of frontline dumahim charging towards Hunters.

imagine the concepts and style of Nosgoth only turned RTS and if you aren't an RTS fan that much you can easily do a Dragon Age/Baldurs gate PAUSE and think system.

im a fan of Brutal Legend. in that game there were some RTS mechanics that worked great you could fly over the battlefield and observe as a giant bat winked guitar playing badass. now that same flying could be applied to Razielim or Hylden or Ancients seeing as how they all had wings.

the scale and battle set pieces could be amazing.

and for extra sugar on this awesome donut.... lets say the main campaign is vampires vs human war like nosgoth, set in the same time between Raziels death to awakening. ok? that's the default.

EXPANSION PACKS could be

the Hylden/Ancinent war.

Kains domination over the humans in his early years as he begins to build the empire

Wars with Commander Raziel or the other brothers as rebellions rise and fall.

even some old school BO1 throwbacks, the battle for nosgoth with king ottmar and William the just

Mobius Crusade etc.

the possibilities are nearly endless with so much to draw from. and because the DEFAULT would be how Nosgoths factions are now, the developer could save loads of money. you can use the same skeleton for all the factions and just swap skins. you have one flying class ala Razielim, and you just swap skins to use the ancients/hylden.

same goes for the rest.

my main point for writing this post is I just found out about halo wars. im not a big Halo fan aside from the first entry but Halo oddly works pretty damn well as an RTS. I saw a few gameplay vids and it just...works. its surprising.

this LOK RTS could be single player and MP. maybe even create your own battles, share, mod etc.

please guys thoughts? expand on my ideas. bring up stuff I havnt mentioned or just didn't write down. love it hate it?

what are your feelings on RTS as a whole. and if you aren't a fan, how would you go about to fixing it? my only mention is that this stays outside of "third person action game like the old LOK" lets as a legion and fan base think outside the box.

please don't cry and bring up how they just need to finish the story and yadayada. its been said all before.

EDIT the only reason I bring up StarCraft, warcraft ETC is because those are the most common and it seems popular RTS out there right now.

also this just came to me. maybe something like the XCOM reboot.

heres videos to get your brains working.

XCOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0KNOGNxDVY

Brutal Legend RTS style possible spoilers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ik7DxmSDrw

Total war gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TICJWW-k0RM

Dune gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30FRephmCto

now im not saying toally ike this game or that game but elements would be cool.

FearGhoul
29th Apr 2015, 02:41
I've seen people bring this up before and not cared for it, thinking about it being like StarCraft or Dawn of War, but you brought up Total War, and I didn't even think of that. I really think that the Total War style would work well for Nosgoth. I don't really have anything to add beyond what you said, but Total War: Nosgoth could be pretty cool. Hell, it looks like there's going to be a Warhammer Total War game, which sounds awesome, so I could totally see Nosgoth working like this.

Sanguise23
29th Apr 2015, 17:36
Yeah i posted in these forums the same kinda idea and most rejected it but i still would love it. There was an AVP RTS game for consoles quite a few years ago were aliens would drag humans back to the queen or eggs to be facehugged and i always thought it would be a great mechanic for turning humans to vampires. I would take about any vampire RTS game though LoK would be best

Ygdrasel
29th Apr 2015, 18:23
As an official entry, I can't see such a thing being any good or condone such a concept. You can dismiss story talk as "crying" but that's complete nonsense given that LoK is all about the story. And you can't really do that in a Total War-esque game. You can't really have characters either, aside from those you project. Same goes for dialogue. That style of game greatly strips much of what makes the series great.

A vampire RTS game would be something to see. But LoK would actually be the worst.


That said, games like Total War do tend to be quite moddable and lend themselves very well to conversion. If some enterprising types were to make such a thing, that would be intriguing. Just...Not an official entry. And the very notion of expansion packs should never come within ten thousand yards of LoK. Expansions and DLC are too often routes to greed and garbage, especially when Square Enix is in charge.


Incidentally, I'm working on converting Crusader Kings 2 to similar effect.
So far, my biggest obstacle (aside from working alone) has been creating the Hylden...

Chulo86
29th Apr 2015, 19:37
to be honest with you I think the legacy of kain franchise should stay as an open world action rpg. (aka the Zelda clone.)
not to say that your idea is bad or anything but I think this franchise has had enough gimmicks.

before tomb raider 2013 was out Square Enix was hemorrhaging money from they're countless failed projects. ( the final fantasy XIII franchise for example ) and needed money BAD.

so instead of giving us a proper game,
they were about to give us a prince of persia rip off that has nothing to do with the franchise other than small references and character names.

before nosgoth was officially announced,
almost every 7th gen game had to either be a first person shooter, or have some sort of multiplayer component to a single player game. (batman arkham origin/god of war ascension/ tomb raider 2013 ect.) at the time, when George Kelion said that they thought it through and the more he thinks about it, it makes perfect sense to bring a new genre to the franchise, and that they only did it to broaden their audience.

to me that just sounded like PR
and it showed me their lack of faith that a proper legacy of kain game couldn't make it on it's own.
"a great game developer should know, if they continue making the game he or she loves and through it's sequels prequels or spinoff's more will follow." legacy of kain did NOT need any special gimmicks to make it relevant.

but that was then.....

now because psyonics showed us that they CAN make good stories,
and they CAN follow canon, nosgoth doesn't seam so bad anymore and I wouldn't mind seeing a part 2 but in a different era.....
right after a single player game :P LOL!!!

those are my thoughts,
and PLEASE!! no more gimmicks......(lets just stick with what we've got. :))

Ygdrasel
29th Apr 2015, 20:04
I wouldn't bind seeing a part 2...

Not sure this genre lends itself much to "part two". And the FF13 'franchise' is hardly failed or it would never have become a franchise. You don't keep stitching on new quilt pieces if the original didn't succeed. And stop misusing the term "rip off". (That last part goes for many people.)


But I agree, essentially. The basics of LoK need to stay the same. Third-person. Action. Puzzles. Those three things guaranteed, they should feel free to experiment with the genre. Something in the vein of a Bethesda or Witcher-esque epic, RPG aspects, or a Zelda-style quest hub thing...

Vampmaster
29th Apr 2015, 20:39
It could be fun to have things like the Battle of the Last Stand as an RTS, but just like Nosgoth it's not what the fans are looking forward to the most. It would start to annoy people that SE wanted to make any LOK game except the one they've been waiting for. It it was release at the same time as or after a single player story based entry to the series, it might do well, but otherwise it's a sore reminder of what could have been.

Then again if it's all new players who buy it, it might not matter so much. Given the choice, I'd prefer to get the main story going again before exploring more genres.

Chulo86
29th Apr 2015, 20:44
Not sure this genre lends itself much to "part two". And the FF13 'franchise' is hardly failed or it would never have become a franchise. You don't keep stitching on new quilt pieces if the original didn't succeed.



considering the long development cycles FF13 failed to meet fans expectations,(even though it sold well)
but it's sequels were bombing pretty hard. I remember reading articles about square enix are in hopes that dues ex and tomb raider 2013 would bring them back to profit with ridiculously high expectations. it wasn't until FFXIV that got them out of that mess.

EDIT:
now that square enix is making money again especially with the upcoming kingdom hearts 3 and FFXV,
there's more flexibility. (meaning more risks can be taken, meaning single player LOK and hopefully HD anthology :).)

ApollosBow
29th Apr 2015, 20:58
Maybe a Facebook tower defense type game (could be good for promotional purposes)...don't want to much effort making another LOK game in a different genre, again.

Ygdrasel
29th Apr 2015, 21:06
Maybe a Facebook tower defense type game (could be good for promotional purposes)...don't want to much effort making another LOK game in a different genre, again.

Facebook games are gross. If there isn't going to be effort, there shouldn't be a game.

calypso-694
29th Apr 2015, 23:15
I hear what you guys are putting down. I know we all want the story DONE so we can move on to bigger and better things but in this time with SE not having faith or focusing on other things why not try something different? so with that in mind lets flip this up a bit

If you guys aren't on board with THAT meaning LOK and Kain himself in that style what about Nosgoth? Nosgoth is its sort of own established thing now and has its own little universe. I also said the DEFAULT story/campaign would be vampire and human war. so we can see that easily in Nosgoth. so instead of LOK why not Nosgoth? sound better?

as far as gameplay goes ive been thinking of mechanics.

in the old warcraft game and even RTS today you build stuff and have to stop it from getting destoroyed and everyone killed. with this new Nosgoth RTS, for vamps you could build blood pens and you could capture humans and use them as a health/more party member type thing. that AVP dragging humans idea sounds cool. Total war has cool maps and HUD layouts usually. I was thinking if lets say you are playing as the ancients or hylden the map would be different. the ancients would use parchment and it would be our tpical Nosgoth map we seein BO1 or when kain is showing his plans in the intro of BO2. as Hylden maybe the map would be stone or a hologram showing Nosgoth. if its a stone it would glow green with the landmarks and have hylden symbols almost minimalist style of Nosgoth. picture The Pillars on the Hylden map not being a picture but maybe 3 or so lines with a circle underneath glowing green.

as far as TOTLA WAR goes, the stories aren't really there but the gameplay is great (again only if RTS is ur thing) however in Warcraft/StarCraft the story is quite good and isee no reason why a LOK inspired story or Nosgoth story couldnbt be good. you can still have your lenghthy cutscenes and camera angels do this thing where they switch perspective often. no reason why an RTS style gameplay cant have great story.

DLC/expansions...hate to tell you guys but that's a thing now. still a big thing. it only makes sense to mention it and come up with ideas for it because we know it would happen anyway. Even when we get the final LOK game regarding Raziel and the EG all of it, I bet you hands down there will be DLC or a season pass.

also MODS. mods are great and why not mods? lets say with this NOSGOTH RTS we don't see a hylden/ancients expansion. well....MODS lol


I know everyone is uneasy with new ideas because we as gamers hate change and change is bad or new things are bad blah blah but just look at Nosgoth, yes some hate it and some love it and some think its ok. but the fact is: it exists and it is here . it managed to take the universe of a single player Zelda clone with loads of story and backstory and exposition overload and turn it into a 4v4 MP L4D style game. and IMO it worked. and still works.

again look at Halo Wars. turning an FPS a freaking FPS into a cool RTS game that works. its set far enough from the main Halo games to tie almost nothing in so hardcore fans done freak out and ***** about the Chief BUT it stays In the same universe that halo fans love, like I said im not a big halo fan aside from the first game but the halo RTS is cool, sure the story is nothing to brag about, characters are cardboard copies of this or that, its just there to tmove the gameplay along but that doesn't mean Nosgoth RTS COULDNT have a great story, the little blog stories are cool IMO and roll with the canon of LOK. they managed to give a MP game enough backstory where, at least when I play, the story comes to my mind and puts me right back to the atmosphere and feeling of the old LOK games I still get when replaying. jobs well done to the crew of Nosgoth.

again, we all want an end but it wouldn't kill us to try other things, and if it doesn't work it doesn't work, a F2P RTS? why not?

ParadoxicalOmen
30th Apr 2015, 01:25
I can't really imagine Legacy of Kain working as an RTS. I can't see how it would play...
For the humans i can imagine a Citadel, some Barracks generating units etc...but I can't imagine how the vampire and Hylden generation would work. Vampires need humans, and the Ancient's are sterile (and we don't know much about the Hylden)...i can't think of a believable and good way to implement a LoK RTS honestly.

I personally think Legacy of Kain is better suited to it's action-adventure RPG roots.
To me the problem with the latest games is that they are focusing too much on action, and less on the rpg, adventure and puzzle elements we so adored.

Ygdrasel
30th Apr 2015, 18:57
in this time with SE not having faith or focusing on other things why not try something different?

If you guys aren't on board...instead of LOK why not Nosgoth?

DLC/expansions...hate to tell you guys but that's a thing now. still a big thing. it only makes sense to mention it and come up with ideas for it because we know it would happen anyway. Even when we get the final LOK game regarding Raziel and the EG all of it, I bet you hands down there will be DLC or a season pass.

a F2P RTS? why not?

1) "In this time of SE being unfocused and just throwing random stuff at a wall to see what sticks, why not encourage that lack of focus with random genre experiments instead of trying to actually get them to buckle down and properly revive the series?" - Yeah...Um... :hmm:

2) Nosgoth is a part of LoK so...The problem is still there. That Nosgoth manages to work as well as it does is a delight but even it lacks sorely in the greatest elements of the series. Its success, insofar as it's had any (it IS floundering at the moment, after all), is basically a fluke/miracle and should not be considered solid ground for further genre departures.

3) "Crap industry practices and greedy quality-ruining are all the rage, guys, SO WHY FIGHT LOL!!!!" - I guess if you don't mind being a part of the problem... :hmm:

4) Many reasons. Story, characters, dialogue and the general difficulties of properly utilizing these elements ("But...Starcraft has cutscenes!" Yes, and they're shallow and quite dull.) in RTS format. The fact that RTS gameplay is so completely removed from LoK as to seem nonsensical. The inevitable downplay of non-linearity, exploration, puzzles and even the action...From an official canonical standpoint, it's just a terrible idea for the series story/gameplay and also a very poor choice from a development and business standpoint. You just can't build a solid franchise on "KEEP CHANGING THE GENRE UNTIL IT'S UNRECOGNIZABLE!"

Essentially, an RTS would greatly reduce not just the story aspects beloved of LoK but the gameplay aspects as well. It simply has no place in official canon. As for "Halo had a game set far from the main games to tie almost nothing in..." - LoK tried that. The result was Dead Sun. Now, maybe if a dev with actual respect for the material tried that, a game set far from current events like that could work (Soul Reaver did it well)...But the genre would still need to retain its standard form.

We all want more LoK. And after that, I myself want spinoffs outside of Kain's legacy. But nobody should just want whatever gimmick or experiment they can manage as long as LoK labels are all over it. There needs to be consistency. The Legacy of Kain is not a Nintendo controller.

@Paradox: LoK has never had RPG elements. But I'd say Defiance definitely focused too much on action and being a DMC ripoff...Also the fact that the best gameplay they could come up with is "Raziel has to imbue the Reaver AGAIN while Kain does the exact same thing with the same moveset!"

calypso-694
30th Apr 2015, 23:27
1) "In this time of SE being unfocused and just throwing random stuff at a wall to see what sticks, why not encourage that lack of focus with random genre experiments instead of trying to actually get them to buckle down and properly revive the series?" - Yeah...Um... :hmm:

2) Nosgoth is a part of LoK so...The problem is still there. That Nosgoth manages to work as well as it does is a delight but even it lacks sorely in the greatest elements of the series. Its success, insofar as it's had any (it IS floundering at the moment, after all), is basically a fluke/miracle and should not be considered solid ground for further genre departures.

3) "Crap industry practices and greedy quality-ruining BS are all the rage, guys, SO WHY FIGHT LOL!!!!" - I guess if you don't mind being a part of the problem... :hmm:

4) Many reasons. Story, characters, dialogue and the general difficulties of properly utilizing these elements ("But...Starcraft has cutscenes!" Yes, and they're shallow and quite dull.) in RTS format. The fact that RTS gameplay is so completely removed from LoK as to seem nonsensical. The inevitable downplay of non-linearity, exploration, puzzles and even the action...From an official canonical standpoint, it's just a terrible idea for the series story/gameplay and also a very poor choice from a development and business standpoint. You just can't build a solid franchise on "KEEP CHANGING THE GENRE UNTIL IT'S UNRECOGNIZABLE!"

Essentially, an RTS would greatly reduce not just the story aspects beloved of LoK but the gameplay aspects as well. It simply has no place in official canon. As for "Halo had a game set far from the main games to tie almost nothing in..." - LoK tried that. The result was Dead Sun. Now, maybe if a dev with actual respect for the material tried that, a game set far from current events like that could work (Soul Reaver did it well)...But the genre would still need to retain its standard form.

We all want more LoK. And after that, I myself want spinoffs outside of Kain's legacy. But nobody should just want whatever gimmick or experiment they can manage as long as LoK labels are all over it. There needs to be consistency. The Legacy of Kain is not a Nintendo controller.



so what in your mind DOES make a good LOK game? lets say that defiance played like Dead Sun instead of DMC? that not for you? how about janky gameplay that keeps chaning with each entry never really settling on a flow. the story is good for the most part but you can tell amy got tired of it with Defiance. If she got payed a dollar for how many times Benevolent was said...

and id rather take a spinoff such as nosgoth or something else tied to the world if it was done well. you can do any genre and type of game well if you have a good team.

everyone just wants THIS or THAT and its all so different with a cohesive vision seeing as how we are a diverse group of fans that when we do FINALLY get that Final entry dealing with kains legacy that doubtless fans will still complain that it isn't like this or that this didn't happen with their idea of the story. no one will be completely happy and before you know it, it will be just an OK ending when it should be a GREAT one.

Lord_Aevum
30th Apr 2015, 23:56
the story is good for the most part but you can tell amy got tired of it with Defiance. If she got payed a dollar for how many times Benevolent was said...

She'd have four dollars :eek:

Ygdrasel
1st May 2015, 03:58
so what in your mind DOES make a good LOK game? lets say that defiance played like Dead Sun instead of DMC? that not for you? how about janky gameplay that keeps changing with each entry never really settling on a flow. the story is good for the most part but you can tell amy got tired of it with Defiance. If she got payed a dollar for how many times Benevolent was said...

Dead Sun played great from what I saw. It was everything else about it that was terrible. If they made a proper LoK game with that gameplay, I'd be all for it. And honestly, Defiance wouldn't have been quite so bad if Raziel/Kain hadn't played exactly the same. The big marketing point for that game was playing as both of them yet they were both functionally identical. It was lame.

The necessary ingredients for LoK:

- Action-adventure gameplay (every game thus far, excluding Nosgoth)
- Third-person (optional first-person is also acceptable but I prefer to see my puppet at work).
- Puzzles
- Great writing

Great writing can come into (almost) any genre with enough effort but the other three do limit genre options for consistency's sake. Still, plenty of games use those basic building blocks to extremely varied affect. Zelda, Final Fantasy, the Arkham series, The Elder Scrolls, Okami, Darksiders...All very different beasts built from the same general ingredients.

There is no reason to go jumping into wildly different genres like RTS or cover shooters or whatever. Stick to the basic third-person action-adventure with puzzles (again, a series needs consistency) and experiment within that box.

I still want to see a Vorador-heavy RPG-esque game on the scope of Bethesda worlds...Retains the above basic ingredients, still varied a large degree from the previous titles.

If LoK ever DID go the way of an RTS though, I'd prefer Brutal Legend's take on it so I could personally engage the enemy alongside my soldiers...But Brutal Legend was very shallow, very repetitive and ultimately tedious so...

calypso-694
1st May 2015, 23:21
I still want to see a Vorador-heavy RPG-esque game on the scope of Bethesda worlds...Retains the above basic ingredients, still varied a large degree from the previous titles.

If LoK ever DID go the way of an RTS though, I'd prefer Brutal Legend's take on it so I could personally engage the enemy alongside my soldiers...But Brutal Legend was very shallow, very repetitive and ultimately tedious so...


Bethesda games are beyond over rated. Skyrim isn't a god amongst games like everyone thinks and Oblivion was boring. Bethesda occasionally gets publishing games right like Dishonored but that game is just Thief done right better than Thief.

the Vorador thing sounds cool but the question is...would ou consider that LOK or a spin off such as Nosgoth?

if LOK did do RTS I mentioned a bunch of differnet styles all mashed up. Brutal Legends RTS was neat. directly control the Commander of the Army and get in there and get bloody. you could zoom in or out of third person OR the top down style RTS mostly is. youd be able to have Total War style maps and planning and army control. Perhaps a PAUSE and think system like in Dragon Age Origins. perhaps a LOK game with fully fleshed out RTS elements and not dliffnotes like brutal legend.

what about the traiditonal third person gameplay that everyone loves, godo story etc. and when lets say there were big battles it would switch to RTS that I mentioned just above.

there was this game that came out ages ago called Viking. half of it was stealthy sneak around and infilitrate enemy camps to build an army. then there were these big battle sections with hundreds of enemies on screen. that could work too. RTS wouldn't be bad for LOK depending on the setting and time period and you can easily have all those elements I just said working together well if someone did it right. single story LOK yes lets do third person. but a spin off dealing with a war of some sort would be able to use these styles.

on another note ugh to Darksiders. I lost interest quick. the story just didn't do it for me. gameplay was fine with its GOW/Zelda style though. if Defiance had only changed the fixed camera to traditional third person and yes mixed up kain and raziel fighting styles it wouldn't have been as bad as everyone thinks it is. ohh and the reaver temples ugh.

Ygdrasel
3rd May 2015, 22:49
Bethesda games are beyond over rated. Skyrim isn't a god amongst games like everyone thinks and Oblivion was boring. Bethesda occasionally gets publishing games right like Dishonored but that game is just Thief done right better than Thief.

the Vorador thing sounds cool but the question is...would ou consider that LOK or a spin off such as Nosgoth?

if LOK did do RTS I mentioned a bunch of differnet styles all mashed up. Brutal Legends RTS was neat. directly control the Commander of the Army and get in there and get bloody. you could zoom in or out of third person OR the top down style RTS mostly is. youd be able to have Total War style maps and planning and army control. Perhaps a PAUSE and think system like in Dragon Age Origins. perhaps a LOK game with fully fleshed out RTS elements and not dliffnotes like brutal legend.

what about the traiditonal third person gameplay that everyone loves, godo story etc. and when lets say there were big battles it would switch to RTS that I mentioned just above.

there was this game that came out ages ago called Viking. half of it was stealthy sneak around and infilitrate enemy camps to build an army. then there were these big battle sections with hundreds of enemies on screen. that could work too. RTS wouldn't be bad for LOK depending on the setting and time period and you can easily have all those elements I just said working together well if someone did it right. single story LOK yes lets do third person. but a spin off dealing with a war of some sort would be able to use these styles.

on another note ugh to Darksiders. I lost interest quick. the story just didn't do it for me. gameplay was fine with its GOW/Zelda style though. if Defiance had only changed the fixed camera to traditional third person and yes mixed up kain and raziel fighting styles it wouldn't have been as bad as everyone thinks it is. ohh and the reaver temples ugh.

Except Skyrim is great. And that's all irrelevant anyway because I wasn't referring to their games but the size of their game worlds.

I would consider it a spinoff. Anything not dealing with Kain or his empire (which Nosgoth does) cannot rightfully be called 'Legacy of Kain'. If ever they complete his story, I fully expect a spinoff series.

RTS for big battles makes enough sense but again, RTS becomes repetitive and tedious very easily. Even Total War gets dull when you realize there isn't really an ounce of strategy involved.