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Lady_Of_The_Vine
27th Apr 2015, 23:16
Gameinformer Podcast

Ask Deus Ex: Mankind Divided's Developers Anything (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2015/04/27/ask-us-anything-about-deus-ex-mankind-divided.aspx)






We've offered up a substantial amount of information about Adam Jensen's fight for the future in Eidos-Montreal's upcoming Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. However, no matter how many details we dish out about about the game, there are still several big questions gamers want to know. Send us those questions for our upcoming podcast interview with executive game director Jean-François Dugas.

Simply put your question(s) in the comments section below, and we'll consider it for inclusion in the upcoming podcast. You'll even get a shout-out on the air. Think of all the internet fame! We'll be posting the podcast on April 29, so be sure to keep your eye on the site or the Game Informer podcast feed.



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Gameinformer - Special Edition Podcast - 29/04/15 (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/podcasts/archive/2015/04/29/special-edition-podcast-deus-ex-mankind-divided.aspx)


Listen to the podcast to learn more about Deus Ex: Mankind Divided's gameplay, why Eidos-Montreal has moved the action to Prague, and whether or not you can expect to download some mods for the game when it releases.


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Question topics covered:


Open-world game
Prague as one of the locations
HR's canon
Previous characters from HR
Future technology
Combat system, augmentations and skills management
The Deus Ex Universe -concept development
Trailers and marketing
New Game+
Religion/Philosophy/Ethics
Lead protagonist - Adam Jensen
Modding
Mini-game hacking

Shralla
28th Apr 2015, 03:35
Push button, receive PR.

WildcatPhoenix
28th Apr 2015, 03:48
Simply put your question(s) in the comments section below, and we'll consider it for inclusion in the upcoming podcast.

I'm sure they'll be selecting really, really tough ones to answer, too...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Apr 2015, 07:25
Have EM officially confirmed that they have chosen "The Truth Is Out There" as the canon ending? I know I read suggestion of it somewhere but can't remember if it was just fan speculation.

Irate_Iguana
28th Apr 2015, 08:38
Push button, receive PR.

Standard Operating Procedure for EM during HR and I guess it will be for Squeenix and MD as well.



I'm sure they'll be selecting really, really tough ones to answer, too...

Yep, just like all these types of events. The questions will most likely consist of things that you can find with 5 seconds of googling, the breathtakingly inane, and "concerns" of "hardcore DX fans". Thing is, they are completely controlled by marketing and there is no chance that anything new will be revealed until they are ready to release a new interview round.

Siddhartha_
28th Apr 2015, 08:56
Have EM officially confirmed that they have chosen "The Truth Is Out There" as the canon ending? I know I read suggestion of it somewhere but can't remember if it was just fan speculation.

I'm backing the theory that it doesn't matter which ending you chose, or which is the "canon" ending - as the destruction of the Hyron super-computer will cause Panchea to collapse under the fluctuations of the Arctic Ocean, thus killing Sarif, Taggart and Darrow, but Jensen is miraculously saved by who I'm going to assume will be either the Interpol group Task Force 29, or possibly the Juggernaut Collective. Whichever message was made public (if any message at all) might be altered by the Illuminati in such a way that causes the public to ostracize augmented individuals and ultimately "divide" populations, thus causing more riots and terrorist attacks etc. But if there is an official canon ending, it'd be nice to know which one it is. However, it's also fun to theorize until we can finally get our mitts on the game! I'm definitely hyped!

WhiteCopy
28th Apr 2015, 12:17
Have EM officially confirmed that they have chosen "The Truth Is Out There" as the canon ending? I know I read suggestion of it somewhere but can't remember if it was just fan speculation.
Something to do with X-Files??? Strange choice....

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Apr 2015, 15:06
I'm backing the theory that it doesn't matter which ending you chose, or which is the "canon" ending - as the destruction of the Hyron super-computer will cause Panchea to collapse under the fluctuations of the Arctic Ocean, thus killing Sarif, Taggart and Darrow, but Jensen is miraculously saved by who I'm going to assume will be either the Interpol group Task Force 29, or possibly the Juggernaut Collective. Whichever message was made public (if any message at all) might be altered by the Illuminati in such a way that causes the public to ostracize augmented individuals and ultimately "divide" populations, thus causing more riots and terrorist attacks etc. But if there is an official canon ending, it'd be nice to know which one it is. However, it's also fun to theorize until we can finally get our mitts on the game! I'm definitely hyped!

Yeah, a fair analysis of possible events there.
I am particularly curious about Faridah Malik; will she return? Even though if you don't save her in HR, she dies.
I only wonder because in the announcement trailer, we see a VTOL aircraft hovering above Adam as he floats in the water... it could be her piloting and she could be the one who rescues him.

Shralla
28th Apr 2015, 18:15
Something to do with X-Files??? Strange choice....

A full third of everything that Deus Ex stands for came straight from the X-Files. It's a crying shame that more of it didn't carry over to Human Revolution. Apart from that one reference, all the X-Files was taken out of Deus Ex when they made HR.

Irate_Iguana
28th Apr 2015, 18:29
Yeah, a fair analysis of possible events there.
I am particularly curious about Faridah Malik; will she return? Even though if you don't save her in HR, she dies.
I only wonder because in the announcement trailer, we see a VTOL aircraft hovering above Adam as he floats in the water... it could be her piloting and she could be the one who rescues him.

According to the Kanobu leak you will be getting a new pilot in MD. From what I can remember of the image it was a black man by the name of Elias. I can't seem to find the picture anymore.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Apr 2015, 19:03
I peeped. Okay, thanks for the info.

--Xas--
28th Apr 2015, 23:48
I had a brief squizz through some of the questions that had been posted yesterday, and I'm pleased to see a certain amount of Pritchard love out there. :)

Siddhartha_
29th Apr 2015, 02:50
Yeah, a fair analysis of possible events there.
I am particularly curious about Faridah Malik; will she return? Even though if you don't save her in HR, she dies.
I only wonder because in the announcement trailer, we see a VTOL aircraft hovering above Adam as he floats in the water... it could be her piloting and she could be the one who rescues him.

I recall reading some official document, or maybe it was an interview, can't remember - but yeah, Malik won't be returning in MD. It's a shame really, she was definitely a favorite in HR.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Apr 2015, 10:18
The podcast release is scheduled for today. I'm looking forward to the questions and answers.

68_pie
29th Apr 2015, 12:34
I'm setting the over/under of interesting answers at 0.5.

Poticha
29th Apr 2015, 15:08
I'm backing the theory that it doesn't matter which ending you chose, or which is the "canon" ending - as the destruction of the Hyron super-computer will cause Panchea to collapse under the fluctuations of the Arctic Ocean, thus killing Sarif, Taggart and Darrow, but Jensen is miraculously saved by who I'm going to assume will be either the Interpol group Task Force 29, or possibly the Juggernaut Collective. Whichever message was made public (if any message at all) might be altered by the Illuminati in such a way that causes the public to ostracize augmented individuals and ultimately "divide" populations, thus causing more riots and terrorist attacks etc. But if there is an official canon ending, it'd be nice to know which one it is. However, it's also fun to theorize until we can finally get our mitts on the game! I'm definitely hyped!

Jean-Francois Dugas (our Executive Game Director) wrote a few words on the ending question, so I'll quote him here. :)



The trailer gives us a good idea of what ending is (sort of) canon in terms of the last game climactic events.
That being said, all endings sport a bit of truth, rumors and whatnot that got spread around the world. So, in a way, the answer to the question is more complex than just identifying one official ending.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Apr 2015, 16:41
Thanks for the info. :thumbsup:

__

While we wait for Gameinformer to publish their podcast; enjoy this video:


Official Tweets

Thank You (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj9YUxKPZXI&feature=youtu.be) from the Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Team
- We're so excited to finally talk about Deus Ex: Mankind Divided with you. Thanks from the Deus Ex team, for all your support and enthusiasm. We love you!

Shralla
29th Apr 2015, 16:56
So excited to finally talk about a bunch of features we can already predict are in the game, while completely ignoring any issues people have.

Pinky_Powers
29th Apr 2015, 17:18
Issues? This is the first I've heard about any unrest in the community. What issues could anyone possibly have?

Now, just let me slip off this troll-hat and mosey on out the door.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Apr 2015, 19:24
Gameinformer - Special Edition Podcast (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/podcasts/archive/2015/04/29/special-edition-podcast-deus-ex-mankind-divided.aspx)


Listen to the podcast to learn more about Deus Ex: Mankind Divided's gameplay, why Eidos-Montreal has moved the action to Prague, and whether or not you can expect to download some mods for the game when it releases.

JCpies
29th Apr 2015, 21:21
Do I have to sign up to their site to access that? :confused:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th Apr 2015, 21:43
So sorry. There was an error in the link. Try it now :thumbsup:

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EDIT

A summary of the topics discussed:



Open-world game
Prague as one of the locations
HR's canon
Previous characters from HR
Future technology
Combat system, augmentations and skills management
The Deus Ex Universe -concept development
Trailers and marketing
New Game+
Religion/Philosophy/Ethics
Lead protagonist - Adam Jensen
Modding
Mini-game hacking

FrankCSIS
29th Apr 2015, 23:44
Thankfully Ben's soothing voice made it worthwhile. :p Seriously though, the questions they pick for those things.

Whining aside (I've an entitled *****ing reputation to uphold!), some interesting topics addressed nonetheless. I'm especially curious to find out how they will attempt to properly rebalance the action and stealth options. Despite my hyperbolic annoyance at the trailer, there is a real pledge to make about a more interesting and viable action approach that doesn't completely destroys the hubs and the narrative. Quite intrigued by how this will pan out.

I've some obvious concerns about what they intend to do in terms of power limitations, though. While takedowns should have never been tied up with the energy system (especially without an independent mele system), it would be a mistake to cave in to the requests of near unlimited energy supply, the way the industry has done in the past with ammunition and health.

Interesting to hear about how the trailer process works, even though I still personally dislike the route they have taken down with it. Good on the team if people are reacting like madmen to some cheap action shots, but I'm hoping the next one doesn't relay additional boom boom pow.

No mods :(

MAYBE PERHAPS I CAN'T SAY IF there might be another main character in a future installment, but the bottom line is we have a cow on our hands, and as a company we need to keep going with it. It makes sense, and I can respect it somehow. I still wish they had the balls to go ahead and actually try to make another iconic character instead, something more fulfilling down the road when looking back on what the Deus Ex Universe has generated, instead of a single franchise character which ends up being mostly fan servicing for all the wrong reasons.

Remote hacking interests me. One frustrating aspect of hacking was always to be forcefully standing up next to a monitor while time remained active around you. I understand why they chose not to freeze time, unlike the original game, but being trapped to the terminal, in a standing position, was painfully annoying when you could not see what was going on around you. Remote hacking, if properly balanced, can kick the gameplay up a notch.

Some things to look forward to. Some annoyances that remain unchanged. We shall see.

Pinky_Powers
30th Apr 2015, 01:32
This reminded me of the Q&A videos last time around. So many questions by people who had never played the original, and think every game should be Skyrim. This can be awfully frustrating to some of us.

I can't really complain, though. Clearly, there are lots of these types, so it's good to have answers for them. I would just slap them around, call them ignorant slobs, and tell them to shut up and go play the classic. But Dugas had some excellent insight... particularly about open-world gameplay. I'm not surprised. Eidos Montréal has a fine handle on this middle ground, as we saw last game.

His remarks on making combat more viable worry me. Combat was very, very viable. It didn't play like Call of Duty, and thank Aslan for that. You had to be careful. You had to make your shots count. And you had to avoid getting hit. Many "ignorant slobs" found this too challenging. They complained about dying too often and running out of ammo.

THAT IS FANTASTIC! That is what you want. If you try and play Deus Ex like the average shooter, it should curbstomp you. Making a HALO player stop and rethink his tactics was a defining pillar of Human Revolution's success. Combat was perfectly viable. It just requires a little caution.

His comments concern me.

On the subject of Adam Jensen: I love him. We all know I love him. I once touched myself to thoughts of him with augmented breasts. But he is not Deus Ex. The moment Eidos grows to rely on their one iconic protagonist is the onset of their doom. Mixing up the faces and genders will breathe new life into future titles. They must not fear a new protagonist.

Of course, if there is a story worth telling, I am interested. But there are other mediums to tell these stories.

Still, I won't deny, I am happy to see him again... however much I want to see what EM can come up with next.

WildcatPhoenix
30th Apr 2015, 02:35
No mods :(


Welp, if this is true, then I'm out for good. There's nothing left for this team to offer me.

FrankCSIS
30th Apr 2015, 02:41
In a previous post-mortem interview about HR, Dugas very openly answered the lack of mod tools came down to a business decision, his words. In this podcast he struggled a bit more with the question, but his answer roughly amounts to the same, no matter how they format it this time.

Pinky_Powers
30th Apr 2015, 03:12
Welp, if this is true, then I'm out for good. There's nothing left for this team to offer me.

He he. You make me laugh sometimes.

Nothing to offer? The best mods have always been made by folk who loved the games they modded. If you don't get to mod a game you love, at the very least you're left with a game you love. That will always be a Prime Win.

And if you do not love the game, you should move on to a title you're more passionate about, as that is where you're best work lies. As a creative person myself, I can promise you that.

You must always hope for a great game first, and a moddable one second.

Shralla
30th Apr 2015, 03:14
This all sounds pretty terrible in its own special, "wouldn't be so terrible if it were not named Deus Ex" kind of way.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 08:47
Welp, if this is true, then I'm out for good. There's nothing left for this team to offer me.

What Pinky said. :p

But also... why not listen to what the team actually said regarding modding and let us know your thoughts.

Irate_Iguana
30th Apr 2015, 09:04
So the questions are **** (as predicted) and Dugas talks. Is there anything that makes it worth listening to? I hate this laziness of everything having to be a video.

EDIT: This focus on Prague makes me kinda nervous. How many hubs are there going to be this time. They're spending an awful lot of marketing on mentioning Prague. The last game suffered from few hubs and felt rushed after TYM.




Remote hacking interests me. One frustrating aspect of hacking was always to be forcefully standing up next to a monitor while time remained active around you. I understand why they chose not to freeze time, unlike the original game, but being trapped to the terminal, in a standing position, was painfully annoying when you could not see what was going on around you. Remote hacking, if properly balanced, can kick the gameplay up a notch.

Remote hacking sounds incredibly overpowered. The fact that you couldn't just hide in a vent and hack everything was one of the only things that made it semi-difficult if you'd go for a pacifist playstyle. The only way that this can be balanced is to make it cost all of the praxis points.

Pinky_Powers
30th Apr 2015, 12:08
Remote hacking sounds incredibly overpowered. The fact that you couldn't just hide in a vent and hack everything was one of the only things that made it semi-difficult if you'd go for a pacifist playstyle. The only way that this can be balanced is to make it cost all of the praxis points.

This is my biggest concern, by far. It sounds like EM is making Mankind Divided easier on all fronts.

Admittedly, I don't know this for sure. Very little information has actually been released. Yet thus far a good portion has the air of EM recoiling from the complaints of gamers who have never played a challenging title... like Deus Ex.

I pray Dugas is simply wording all this wrong.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 12:49
Dugas stated in a previous interview that we should expect a real challenge and there will be a difficulty option best suited for hardcore stealth enthusiasts. :cool:

CyberP
30th Apr 2015, 12:54
The remote hacking could be limited by resources, similar to how the typhoon was. Or some other form of balancing. I wouldn't bet on it though.

Irate_Iguana
30th Apr 2015, 13:01
Dugas stated in a previous interview that we should expect a real challenge and there will be a difficulty option best suited for hardcore stealth enthusiasts. :cool:

Dugas also stated that he thought that the "normal" difficulty in HR was too hard and ended up too punitive for some.
HR was many things, but it wasn't that difficult. Not even on "hard" while turning off all visual guides and not using 3rd person to spy around corners.

Nowadays you have to look at Indie games mostly to get a difficult game. Triple-A's aren't hard. They can be somewhat frustrating because they believe that psychic AI and more high-damage, bullet-sponge enemies are the same thing as a challenge.

WildcatPhoenix
30th Apr 2015, 13:18
He he. You make me laugh sometimes.

Glad I could provide some amusement for you.



Nothing to offer? The best mods have always been made by folk who loved the games they modded. If you don't get to mod a game you love, at the very least you're left with a game you love. That will always be a Prime Win.

You must always hope for a great game first, and a moddable one second.


This is nonsense. Plenty of good/great mods have been created using tools from a mediocre core game. You don't have to "love" the original work in order to build something creative or inspired.

And as for "hope for a great game?" So I should just ignore the crushing disappointment of DXHR (which we have discussed ad nauseam on this very forum for the past...oh, I dunno, 6 or 7 years?) I should just ignore the sinking feeling in my gut every time we get a new press release or trailer from DX:MD, which appears to be more of the same only simplified?



And if you do not love the game, you should move on to a title you're more passionate about, as that is where you're best work lies. As a creative person myself, I can promise you that.


That's what I said, originally. There's nothing left for me here but stale arguments and crushing disappointment. Time to move on...



What Pinky said. :p

But also... why not listen to what the team actually said regarding modding and let us know your thoughts.

I did listen to the majority of the podcast (I skipped a few of the most generic questions with painfully obvious answers). But thanks for the assumption.

There is nothing in that podcast that gives me any hope of DX:MD being anything other than DX:HR redux, only with shinier graphics and more "streamlined" features for an undemanding, CoD/Halo-addicted console audience. Maybe it's just my natural disdain for JFD (I'm sorry, nothing on the man's resume suggests he should be the one in charge of the Deus Ex franchise, and everything about his entire demeanor, mannerisms, and statements just scream "corporate mouthpiece" to me).

So have fun, folks. It's been...well, it's been something.

CyberP
30th Apr 2015, 14:03
more "streamlined" features for an undemanding, CoD/Halo-addicted console audience.

Eh, the PC audience can be just as undemanding at times. Console games and PC games are often one and the same these days; utter ****, that is. If the PC audience were a truly demanding, monocled bunch there wouldn't be a place for AAA garbage on PC, but alas it is still considered a viable market (for Call of Duty and Halo too. If they didn't return profits they wouldn't be made for PC).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 14:19
I did listen to the majority of the podcast...
They said modding is something they really wish to explore in the future.
I thought that would make you feel happy... or, at the very least, happier.


So have fun, folks. It's been...well, it's been something.
Thanks. We will! :cool:
Farewell. :wave:

Pinky_Powers
30th Apr 2015, 15:21
That's what I said, originally. There's nothing left for me here but stale arguments and crushing disappointment. Time to move on...

I gotchya now. Yes, if you didn't like HR, there was never any hope you would like its follow up, because there was never any hope Eidos was going to reverse its stand on the major controversies.

Mankind Divided could be a better game. EM could implement a few of the things they didn't have time for in the last game. But it would still be a long way from being "fixed" in the eyes of many of you.

So fare thee well.

Shralla
30th Apr 2015, 15:57
They said modding is something they really wish to explore in the future.

That's what they said last time. It's just more public relations crap.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 16:37
That's what they said last time.
I know.


It's just more public relations crap.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course.
From their reply, I am of the opinion they are telling the truth. Rest assured... time will tell.

Dvaythavvar
30th Apr 2015, 20:01
They said modding is something they really wish to explore in the future.
I thought that would make you feel happy... or, at the very least, happier.

Thanks. We will! :cool:
Farewell. :wave:

Yet only Bethesda Soft is next to only game developer actually give modding tools on hands of fans and actually say : go, mod, do whatever you like. Wish there be mod "edit kits" around to let you to follow your own versions and ideas how the game should be. As well it is fun hobby to have such tools without massive know-how-or-madness.

68_pie
30th Apr 2015, 20:47
I am of the opinion they are telling the truth.

Based on what? It certainly can't be true based on everything that has happened so far.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 21:23
Based on what?
Why not ask the same of Shralla? :p

But to answer you. I'm basing my opinion on a little logic; if you will. I mean, who isn't interested in modding? :scratch:
They are fans of the modding community; so I'm pretty sure they are genuinely interested in making mod tools available in the future... just as they said.

Spyhopping
30th Apr 2015, 21:32
There may be more truth to the positive spin on the modding thing than you realise.

xaduha3
30th Apr 2015, 21:40
Oh oh, things are getting dicey. Logic got involved, that's never a good sign.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 21:43
Hehe. It works for me.
The Omar in me believes most people are true to themselves and have no reason to outright lie - especially when they're talking about creativity and passion. :cool:

FrankCSIS
30th Apr 2015, 22:53
Remote hacking sounds incredibly overpowered. The fact that you couldn't just hide in a vent and hack everything was one of the only things that made it semi-difficult if you'd go for a pacifist playstyle. The only way that this can be balanced is to make it cost all of the praxis points.

The thing is, I didn't find it difficult so much as simply annoying. Turning all the gadgets and options off for an experience more to liking, the sound design was not good enough to properly listen to what was going on around you while focusing on the screen. It's a lot more realistic to hack in real time. But what we gained in realism we lost in gameplay, because at the end of the day there was very little else to do than reload if you got caught. In many instances planning and timing was just not possible, and, unlike the locks in Thief or the Dark Mod, you couldn't leave halfway through a long lock (hack) to hide if you heard someone coming.

Allowing you to hack while crouching would have been a bit of an imporvement, and I do realise remote hacking requires great balancing, but I don't think, in this instance, we would lose anything in terms of challenge, because, the way I feel it, hacking wasn't challenging so much as unpredictable in a non-interesting way.

Edit: There are also multiple ways to make it interesting. By limiting the distance, or making it detectable, for instance. Those are also points you could use to upgrade, if you chose to spend points on hacking distance, making choices more decisive and truly affecting your style.

I do worry a little when they say the game in normal was too difficult, though. I've lost of ton of playing skills over the years, and the game wasn't THAT challenging. It felt about right for a normal setting.

CyberP
30th Apr 2015, 23:16
Hehe. It works for me.
The Omar in me believes most people are true to themselves and have no reason to outright lie - especially when they're talking about creativity and passion. :cool:

I think you need a perception augmentation.

"Everybody Lies"
-Mary DeMarle/Megan Reed.

She's right.

Of course some lie more than others. I like to think I lie very little, but everybody has done it at least once at some point.

Edit: And they do have good reason: PR, as Shralla said.

besyuziki
30th Apr 2015, 23:20
About mods: After more than a decade, the original Deus Ex is a gift that keeps on giving thanks to great mods like TNM, New Vision, GMDX, and the upcoming Revision, not that vanilla Deus Ex gave the mod community a lot to build on. Maybe it will cost EM too many resources and too much time, and I know it's easy for fans to just speculate about mod support when it's them who will have to do all the hard work, but... It would really be great.

About remote hacking: It does sound overpowered. Maybe it will require eye contact with the hacked terminal, drain Adam's energy, require a remote controlled drone, and/or consumable inventory items like Typhoon, as someone suggested above? We need context but just hacking without penalties in a perfectly safe spot sounds like it would make things too trivial.

About difficulty: Human Revolution on "Give Me Deus Ex" wasn't a breeze, but it wasn't as challenging as I would expect from the highest difficulty. Maybe MD will have a higher shelf life if they implement higher difficulty levels, drastically change enemy behavior on highest difficulty and/or implement new difficulty parameters to play with a single autosave to avoid reloading after bad choices, or permadeath for masochists, etc etc.

FrankCSIS
30th Apr 2015, 23:32
About remote hacking: It does sound overpowered. Maybe it will require eye contact with the hacked terminal, drain Adam's energy, require a remote controlled drone, and/or consumable inventory items like Typhoon, as someone suggested above? We need context but just hacking without penalties in a perfectly safe spot sounds like it would make things too trivial.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as memory fails me at times, but the only true penalty in DX was the necessity to spend a LOT of points into the skill to become a leet hacker, making you greatly underpowered in other areas for a large portion of the game. To me this is where you have a lot of leeway to properly balance the game. Because, again, there is no challenge in real-time hacking so much as dumb luck, unless you spend a lot of time designing the level and the AI routes accordingly. So I feel the proper way to balance this would be to granulate the hacking options some more, by forcing the player to invest in distance skills and wireless undetectability, dedicating many of his points to the hacker route. A real penalty, and a real tough choice to make.

CyberP
30th Apr 2015, 23:46
Correct me if I'm wrong, as memory fails me at times, but the only true penalty in DX was the necessity to spend a LOT of points into the skill to become a leet hacker, making you greatly underpowered in other areas for a large portion of the game

The penalties for hacking?

Not much. The RPG systems weren't very well balanced in DX1 (or any DX for that matter).
There was consequence for failure of a hack (raised alarm, bioelectricity drain, temporary lockout), but that rarely happened vanilla unless you just somehow plain fail to grasp the urgency of simply pressing the escape button before the bar runs out. Not a mistake you'll easily make twice.


Because, again, there is no challenge in real-time hacking so much as dumb luck, unless you spend a lot of time designing the level and the AI routes accordingly.

Not quite. There's smarts in real time hacking, and simulation. You could simply study patrol routes beforehand, activate cloak before hacking, grab a box and crouch hide behind it before hacking, distract a guard before hacking, or simply take the troops out and then hack (the latter option being least desirable for stealth, of course).
System Shock 1 had a rear-view mirror/camera augmentation, that would come in handy for real-time hacking also.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Apr 2015, 23:48
I think you need a perception augmentation.
Likewise. You have misunderstood what I said. Read on...


"Everybody Lies"
-Mary DeMarle/Megan Reed.
She's right.
Of course some lie more than others. I like to think I lie very little, but everybody has done it at least once at some point.
I never stated people don't lie. I said I believe most people are true to themselves; and we're not discussing lil' white lies in any case.
If you imply the devs lie when they say they are very interested in releasing modding tools in the future; that is up to you. Ha, I guess it fits with the DX conspiracy theories. ;)


And they do have good reason: PR, as Shralla said.
I never argued otherwise; he is entitled to his opinion, as I said. I merely shared my own opinion.

besyuziki
30th Apr 2015, 23:49
And a moment of silence for DX1's augmentation system which made the player pick between two augs for each slot. To me it wouldn't be a huge issue if the game made us pick between remote hacking and an equally useful (although suited for a different approach) aug. There were some DX1" augs blatantly better than their alternative in the same slot, but "You can't have your cake and eat it too" was a good stance regarding choice, consequence and penalties.

Human Revolution was hamstrung by many design choices, sadly, and combining a perfectly fine character system that consisted of augmentations and skills into a... tree... was one of them IMO.

CyberP
30th Apr 2015, 23:50
Viki: I'm indifferent. They could be lying, they could not be. I'm not sure I even care either way. Of course without evidence there's no point speculating further.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st May 2015, 00:01
Viki: I'm indifferent. They could be lying, they could not be. I'm not sure I even care either way.
I concur.


Of course without evidence there's no point speculating further.
Oh, it would be no fun if we didn't speculate! :rasp:
And, anyway, we have all been debating this-and-that for many, many years - so there's no point changing things now.

FrankCSIS
1st May 2015, 00:06
Studying patrol routes work if the routes are built accordingly in the first place. I suppose the biggest issue here, besides being forced to stand up, was routes being improperly designed to make this a viable option in a few instances. Hiding behind crates feels as silly as freezing time. Who wouldn't notice the sudden appearance of crates in the office? I suppose the real problem was me being too stubborn and refusing to use the cloaking system. But then I don't see how being invisible makes it any more challenging than remote hacking. In both instances proper balancing can insure the player must be dedicated to his hacking choices (I know you said as much).

And yeah, I do miss the slot-based system, even if it's not essential for proper balance.

Pinky_Powers
1st May 2015, 02:42
Oh, it would be no fun if we didn't speculate! :rasp:

Dugas was lying. And he was lying whilst stroking a cat he strangled moments before. He writes poetry about how much he loathes community mods. He's a villain, is what I'm hinting at.

http://cdn.eidosinteractive.com/mtl/marketing/Community/Blog/E3/dxama01.gif

CyberP
1st May 2015, 03:08
Lol. Best. gif. ever.

Pinky_Powers
1st May 2015, 03:35
Not my creation, sadly. Can't remember who made it. Chances are they're still around here somewhere.

Irate_Iguana
1st May 2015, 08:56
Because, again, there is no challenge in real-time hacking so much as dumb luck, unless you spend a lot of time designing the level and the AI routes accordingly.

Something they need to do regardless. The AI was painfully dumb in HR and level routes were generally not handled well. Both contributed to stealth being really overpowered. AI needs to notice things like new obstructions in their patrol route, changes to the environment, missing colleagues, disabled alarms and robots, and stolen items. They should be more tenacious when looking for an expected intruder and return to an unalarmed state slower. They should be able to be put into a continuous search mode after too many intrusions. Then you can change these parameters depending on the type of guard you have. A gangbanger standing on lookout will not have the same responses as an elite PMC guard in a top secret facility. Basically The AI was **** and they have their work cut out for them.



So I feel the proper way to balance this would be to granulate the hacking options some more, by forcing the player to invest in distance skills and wireless undetectability, dedicating many of his points to the hacker route. A real penalty, and a real tough choice to make.

Again something that they should do regardless. It was way too easy to get a large amount of points and max everything useful. The only real choice at the beginning was whether you wanted to be weaker for the first part of Detroit in order to become quickly overpowered after that. Not much of a choice and certainly no consequence.




And a moment of silence for DX1's augmentation system which made the player pick between two augs for each slot. To me it wouldn't be a huge issue if the game made us pick between remote hacking and an equally useful (although suited for a different approach) aug. There were some DX1" augs blatantly better than their alternative in the same slot, but "You can't have your cake and eat it too" was a good stance regarding choice, consequence and penalties.

Human Revolution was hamstrung by many design choices, sadly, and combining a perfectly fine character system that consisted of augmentations and skills into a... tree... was one of them IMO.

Agreed. Combining both items and relying on XP to limit choices was a dumb move. Another dumb move was tying the XP system to gameplay instead of objectives achieved. This made it that much harder to balance and made sure that they had less control over what amount of XP a player would have at a certain section in the game.

Making the augs separate and having Adam visit a LIMB clinic to buy a completely new arm that could have super strength or armblades would have made things easier for them. It would have also made it possible for them to actually do something with the whole "I never asked for this" shtick instead of two throwaway lines.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st May 2015, 10:01
Dugas was lying. And he was lying whilst stroking a cat he strangled moments before. He writes poetry about how much he loathes community mods. He's a villain, is what I'm hinting at.

http://cdn.eidosinteractive.com/mtl/marketing/Community/Blog/E3/dxama01.gif

Poor cat! :eek: :D

68_pie
1st May 2015, 13:16
Why not ask the same of Shralla? :p

Because he's basing it on past history.


But to answer you. I'm basing my opinion on a little logic; if you will. I mean, who isn't interested in modding? :scratch:
They are fans of the modding community; so I'm pretty sure they are genuinely interested in making mod tools available in the future... just as they said.

But what about that lends you to believe it will actually happen?


Hehe. It works for me.
The Omar in me believes most people are true to themselves and have no reason to outright lie

Except when, you know, they are trying to sell you something. Like in this exact case.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st May 2015, 13:39
Because he's basing it on past history.
I don't ever recall them telling lies about modding tools. :scratch:


But what about that lends you to believe it will actually happen?
I didn't say I believe it will actually happen. I said I believe that they are not telling lies when they say they are interested in releasing mod tools in the future.


Except when, you know, they are trying to sell you something. Like in this exact case.
They have no need to lie about modding tools in order to sell the game. The vast majority of customers who will buy it don't participate in modding themselves; so the game will sell regardless.
They merely gave an honest reply to a question,. ie no mod tools in DX:MD; but definitely something they are interested in and would like to implement in the future.

Sabretooth1
8th Jun 2015, 07:49
Dugas was lying. And he was lying whilst stroking a cat he strangled moments before. He writes poetry about how much he loathes community mods. He's a villain, is what I'm hinting at.

http://cdn.eidosinteractive.com/mtl/marketing/Community/Blog/E3/dxama01.gif


Lol. Best. gif. ever.


Not my creation, sadly. Can't remember who made it. Chances are they're still around here somewhere.

Hah, that would be me. Sorry for the bump, but I saw that E3 Debate trailer, and the mustache on Dugas reminded me of the gif I made. I looked it up and was glad someone saved it to Dropbox as a mirror, and I'm even more glad it's still being used, 5 years after I made it (has it really been that long?!). Cheers, you guys. Great to see you're still around. :P

SageSavage
8th Jun 2015, 13:21
Hah, that would be me. Sorry for the bump, but I saw that E3 Debate trailer, and the mustache on Dugas reminded me of the gif I made. I looked it up and was glad someone saved it to Dropbox as a mirror, and I'm even more glad it's still being used, 5 years after I made it (has it really been that long?!). Cheers, you guys. Great to see you're still around. :P

Quality is timeless.

Avenging_Teabag
10th Jun 2015, 12:15
On difficulty: believe it or not, the number of people who would play a new title on the highest difficulty setting and consider it not that hard, is minuscule. The vast majority of people who will buy this game are not the types who spend time learning mechanics and discussing them on internet forums. The game will be balanced for them, deal with it.