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uNborn-
14th Apr 2015, 20:14
Good thread started here.

http://forum.eslgaming.com/discussion/5567/why-was-the-region-lock-lifted-only-in-north-america#latest

New region lock changes include both JPN and AUS players with 300+ ping and are allowed to compete in the NA cups.
This goes against the notion that ping is a big issue and shatters former arguements made by EU teams and admins stating that our and other NA teams are not allowed to play in the EU cups based on our unacceptable ping of 100.

Why is ESL sheltering the EU community, Why is nothing here consistant, factual, logical and fair. I encourage any and everyone to chime in on this thread and throw in your .02 cents. If you're going to set region locks up to protect certain EU teams using a ping issue as the basis of that rule then at least try to be consistent.

gzvirax
14th Apr 2015, 20:23
I think netcode is definitely an issue in the game, enough that hit detection becomes a serious issue around 140-150ms.

Regardless of what they decide on ESL needs to make a choice and then stick with their decisions. Disallowing inter-region play between NA-EU but allowing it between NA-AUS-JPN is just asinine. Personally I'm not looking forward to playing vampire against high-latency teams this coming weekend.

VileCodec
14th Apr 2015, 20:41
Pigeon holing everyone into such a broad and unreliable tournament while preserving the little EU hugbox that's going on in ESL you're going to see ESL die a slow and painful death. We need either separation and reliable ping for all or fully open ESL tournaments.

I see a lot of hit detection issues already on US West due to JPN and AUS hopping on those servers. I'm lucky to land 2 hits in a row due to this poor latency. You honestly think this will make ESL better? You're sorely mistaken.

Equanimityjohn
14th Apr 2015, 21:02
Some serious ****. They get huge prize money and aren't allowing [foreign] players with higher ping in EU while we in the US are being forced to play against 300 pingers for scraps.

Oh and give US double elimination too! Thanks.

Sincerely,
someone who believes in fairness

Da_Wolv
14th Apr 2015, 21:10
Where did you get the info from that the ESL lifted the region lock?

Coz I can't find it anywhere:

Quick Rules (http://play.eslgaming.com/nosgoth/global/nosgoth/major/beta-cup-series-na/cup-3/?utm_source=nosgoth_global&utm_medium=leagueList&utm_term=NavCompare&utm_content=cup&utm_campaign=NavigationComparison)
[...]
Only North American players are allowed to participate.

--Ram--
14th Apr 2015, 21:35
I see a lot of hit detection issues already on US West due to JPN and AUS hopping on those servers. I'm lucky to land 2 hits in a row due to this poor latency. You honestly think this will make ESL better? You're sorely mistaken.

I didn't expect this to take long to appear..

Lets get some things straight here:

a) The hit detection in this game is bad to begin with, which is why people get away with using high ping as an excuse whenever it suits them.

b) the 300 ping players are the ones with the exacerbated hit detection problems and the huge disadvantage, not the guys playing against them. If people want to accept a handicap in a competitive game then let them, US teams playing against AU might as well start with 10+ free kills, that's how bad 200+ ping is to play with.

Not once have I played on any server in my 650 hours of Nosgoth and noticed that it was particularly hard to hit a guy with high ping. What is impossible not to notice however, is the fact that playing this game on high ping feels like utter **** and completely **** with hit detection. I'm sure we will see plenty more whining and cries of #lagvantage but if a team loses against a higher ping team they well and truly deserve the loss.

As for the hypocrisy involving the implementation of US-EU region lock and the latest decision, well I can't argue with that. Personally I would love to see US and EU teams compete and can't see any logical reason why they shouldn't be able to.

uNborn-
14th Apr 2015, 21:56
Please post on the Esl forums as well. This was more of a gateway. The admin do not monitor these forums.

HexMee
14th Apr 2015, 22:14
I do agree with you, merging your servers with AUS and JPN was a **** move, if one region is locked so should all.
And I (for the first time, and probably the last time) stand behind you in this argument unborn.

What I don't agree with is the way you make this an issue about EU. We've done no harm to you but still you barrage us with insults and now you drag us into arguments that have nothing to do with us.

With that said though, you're still **** about the locks between EU and US even though we have summoner in our pool of characters now? Do you know what's so special with summoner? I would asume no because you just **** out arguments without thinking, as usual. Let me explain what is so special about summoner.
Summoner has a nifty little shield as her defensive ability, guess what? Having higher ping than the enemy summoner gives you an advantage with how hit detection is handled client side.
Imagine this scenario: Scout charges bow, sees summoner. Summoner sees scout, raises her shield.
What happens if scout has 50 ping and summoner has 50 ping? Shot hits the shield.
What happens if scout has 150 ping and summoner has 50 ping? When scout fires his shot his client is still 100-150 milliseconds behind on updating the fact that summoner raised her shield, giving you an easy shot on an unshielded summoner, dispite the fact that the summoner did indeed in reality raise her shield before you hit her.

Now I know what you're thinking here: "This one little thing will be barely noticeable!" Perhaps you're right. But for this game to have a professional competitive environment for the players, even the slightest most farfetched scenario should never have a chance to happen.

I give you that locking regions in the earlier stages of ESL starting up for Nosgoth might have been a questionable decision but that's in the past. Now that summoner is here providing problematic scenarios when players with high ping are involved I hope that you drop all your **** whining about how you want regionlocks to go down, it shouldn't and will never happen.

TL;DR: I agree with unborn, NA and AUS/JPN should be locked away from eachother. But stop harassing EU and bringing EU into discusions that have nothing to do with EU.

DesolatedMaggot
14th Apr 2015, 22:23
What I don't agree with is the way you make this an issue about EU. We've done no harm to you but still you barrage us with insults and now you drag us into arguments that have nothing to do with us.

EU is part of this argument because, by your own admission, NA is being unfairly **** upon. The **** should be smeared evenly.

--Ram--
14th Apr 2015, 22:39
Imagine this scenario: Scout charges bow, sees summoner. Summoner sees scout, raises her shield.
What happens if scout has 50 ping and summoner has 50 ping? Shot hits the shield.
What happens if scout has 150 ping and summoner has 50 ping? When scout fires his shot his client is still 100-150 milliseconds behind on updating the fact that summoner raised her shield, giving you an easy shot on an unshielded summoner, dispite the fact that the summoner did indeed in reality raise her shield before you hit her.

This is a great story, but if you actually think that having the 150 ping gives you an advantage over 50 you are kidding yourself. More importantly if you think that an AU player with 250 ping playing against US players on 50 ping does anything other than give the US team a massive advantage then you clearly have no idea what playing on 250 ping feels like.

Putting aside the entire region lock debacle for a second, it is pretty disturbing to see that you are arguing that AU/Asia players being finally granted the opportunity to play in competitive Nosgoth was a "**** move". I would have thought Dead Sun would want to support growing the competitive scene?

US and EU teams can get upset about the state of things all they like but frankly Oceanic players have had the shortest straw here the entire time. This decision was made to give us a chance to play and a boost to our competitive community, and I for one am grateful for the opportunity.

Bazielim
14th Apr 2015, 22:46
Good evening lades and gentlemen. I would like to take this oppurtunity before this thread ges any further to remind users of the forum terms of use (http:// http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?f=175&a=1) and encourage people to keep them in mind when posting. Whatever debates you feel are necessary please keep them civil, respect others opinions, don't use profanity and don't circumvent the language filters. Thank you for your cooperation.

SilentVirtue
14th Apr 2015, 22:48
This is a great story, but if you actually think that having the 150 ping gives you an advantage over 50 you are deluded. More importantly if you think that an AU player with 250 ping playing against US players on 50 ping does anything other than give the US team a massive advantage then you clearly have no idea what playing on 250 ping feels like.

Putting aside the entire region lock debacle for a second, it is pretty disturbing to see that you are arguing that AU/Asia players being finally granted the opportunity to play in competitive Nosgoth was a "**** move". I would have thought Dead Sun would want to support growing the competitive scene?

US and EU teams can get upset about the state of things all they like but frankly Oceanic players have had the shortest straw here the entire time. This decision was made to give us a chance to play and a boost to our competitive community, and I for one am grateful for the opportunity.

Ofc we support it, but OCA/Asia could have its own region

Lunian
14th Apr 2015, 22:52
Good thread started here.

http://forum.eslgaming.com/discussion/5567/why-was-the-region-lock-lifted-only-in-north-america#latest

New region lock changes include both JPN and AUS players with 300+ ping and are allowed to compete in the NA cups.
This goes against the notion that ping is a big issue and shatters former arguements made by EU teams and admins stating that our and other NA teams are not allowed to play in the EU cups based on our unacceptable ping of 100.

Why is ESL sheltering the EU community, Why is nothing here consistant, factual, logical and fair. I encourage any and everyone to chime in on this thread and throw in your .02 cents. If you're going to set region locks up to protect certain EU teams using a ping issue as the basis of that rule then at least try to be consistent.

consistency and communication from ESL is necessary for Nosgoth ESL to grow

- Sharp

--Ram--
14th Apr 2015, 22:52
Ofc we support it, but OCA/Asia could have its own region

Agreed, believe me that would be infinitely more enjoyable to us than playing on US. Hopefully at some point it becomes a possibility.

HexMee
14th Apr 2015, 23:21
This is a great story, but if you actually think that having the 150 ping gives you an advantage over 50 you are kidding yourself. More importantly if you think that an AU player with 250 ping playing against US players on 50 ping does anything other than give the US team a massive advantage then you clearly have no idea what playing on 250 ping feels like.

Putting aside the entire region lock debacle for a second, it is pretty disturbing to see that you are arguing that AU/Asia players being finally granted the opportunity to play in competitive Nosgoth was a "**** move". I would have thought Dead Sun would want to support growing the competitive scene?

US and EU teams can get upset about the state of things all they like but frankly Oceanic players have had the shortest straw here the entire time. This decision was made to give us a chance to play and a boost to our competitive community, and I for one am grateful for the opportunity.

That's like saying I happily eat my food at home and take comfort in knowing that people are starving around the world and I honestly feel really offended.

We do all we can to help the community grow because we love the game and the people playing the game. But in this subject our hands are tied, the game can NOT be taken serious from a competitive viewpoint if we let players play with high ping. You gotta look further ahead than bending the rules so a few extra teams can be squeezed in here and there. That's why I think it was a **** move to not have the same rules between NA and AUS as with EU and NA. And I also agree that NA should have an equal pricepool to ours, but I don't see you even possibly imagining that I want justice right? Rude.

--Ram--
14th Apr 2015, 23:37
You gotta look further ahead than bending the rules so a few extra teams can be squeezed in here and there. That's why I think it was a **** move to not have the same rules between NA and AUS as with EU and NA.

The thing is, what we were actually hoping for when we asked to be able to play was an Oceanic division. You don't need to convince me that us playing in US is not ideal, I am well aware. You want the community to grow and so do I, however you have had the pleasure of watching the EU scene grow, while I have watched the AU scene stagnate and wither without a meaningful way to foster competition and interest. Hence my strong feelings on the subject of our invitation to play and your reaction to it.



the game can NOT be taken serious from a competitive viewpoint if we let players play with high ping. You gotta look further ahead than bending the rules so a few extra teams can be squeezed in here and there.

As for the seriousness of competitive Nosgoth, well lets be honest here, there are a myriad of reasons why it can't be taken too seriously right now regardless of this change.

uNborn-
14th Apr 2015, 23:43
Oh my. So let me try and understand the basis for your newest argument. The summoner. The summoner wasn't even out when you (deadsun) perpetually whined to have the region locks in the first place. But now since everyone can see how much of a cop out that was it's now the new summoner ability that is the pure reason that it should stay in place? NA players have no problem playing with oceanic or EU players on either server. We don't care about the ping, we can play one on NA and one on EU in a double elimination format make it one tournament. Pool all of the teams and play one Sunday at the normal time for EU. I don't mind getting up early on a Sunday for a significantly larger prize pool.

HexMee
14th Apr 2015, 23:43
The thing is, what we were actually hoping for when we asked to be able to play was an Oceanic division. You don't need to convince me that us playing in US is not ideal, I am well aware.

As for the seriousness of competitive Nosgoth, well lets be honest here, there are a myriad of reasons why it can't be taken too seriously right now regardless of this change.

You solve problems by fixing them, not adding more problems.

kLauE187
15th Apr 2015, 03:36
aww then you need to win more than 2 games to win the NA tournament :(
but seriously hitreg against high-ping is broken and this is fact. dont get how you cant notice this after 650h playing lol

--Ram--
15th Apr 2015, 03:45
but seriously hitreg against high-ping is broken and this is fact. dont get how you cant notice this after 650h playing lol

Gotta love that lagvantage.

injiau
15th Apr 2015, 03:53
C U LADS @ CUP DAY ~ LULZ

team *(Ra)in

P.S: My lag is going to win ESL as I have massive lagvantage. (just saying)

If EU and NA want to play against each other why don't they both play 1 on each server and tally up both of the matches.

ezpz

PollyEsther
15th Apr 2015, 04:14
regionals that lead into a world cup?

kLauE187
15th Apr 2015, 05:17
just played a pubgame where i missed 3 shots in a row onto a sent with 220ms who was 1m infront of me. heard the sound but it didnt registered and this happens pretty often against high-pinger since a few patches. i would clearly call this lagvantage (said it LOLOLOL). actually it isnt so bad to play with 200ms because movement is so easy to predict in this game that you can play around it. abilities like sweeping kick are harder to hit but other than that it works ok. still its a disadvantage for both teams involved in a luck and lagfest and shouldnt be something you want to have in a pvp-based competitive game.

Da_Wolv
15th Apr 2015, 07:13
Can't we just all post on ESL forums ?`?
Incredibly annoying to keep checking both.

copy-paste from ESL:




so what time do you suggest?

Bear in mind there is 6 hours between EU and East NA, looking at a weekday, that means that if we start at 6pm (mid day in NA) that means its unfair to NA, add 5 hours so that na teams can compete (assuming they finish work at 5, are all eastern based etc) it means that EU players start a tourney at 11 at night, and this is still assuming that all of the players are NA and 5pm is still very early for them.

That leaves Saturday, with an 9 hour timezone different for west coast na, means we would be starting at 6-9pm EU time (for eastern Europe that's 11pm, and mid day or mid morning for NA W,

Not to mention the 200+ ping issues.

I'm happy to play NA teams, We just need to work a way so that it is fair for both sides, simply put, this is no easy task... and just to note, im talking about UK timezones and GMT+1 (Sweeden) some places in EU are +2 or +3 even

^This

Our team has scrimmed tons of times against FWW for practice and while we never felt that ping was a determining factor in the match, it was certainly an influencer; but thats not the reason I support the region lock.

NA intrinsically has more time zones that EU, but as soon as you start throwing Rusia into the mix, all of the sudden it gets super complicated. With last weeks Sunday EU Cup, a lot of players, myself included, were a little tired at the end. We finished 4th, so around 11pm, while the Tourney itself finsihed at 00:30 - now imagine having to start playing around that time, with the combined teams from NA/EU and OC/JPN?! We are possibly looking at a RO64 bracket...

The time difference is the key here, not the ping!
Sure you can argue that for AUS/JPN this new ruling is bad considering time zones, but at least it allows them to play at all, but if you combine the 2 largest scenes just because of reasons™, you are going to loose many teams because they can't make the time work for them.

We are currently trying to set up a match vs. Memer Lemurs. They are PDT and we are CEST - it's almost impossible to find a spot we can both make.

injiau
15th Apr 2015, 15:21
just played a pubgame where i missed 3 shots in a row onto a sent with 220ms who was 1m infront of me. heard the sound but it didnt registered and this happens pretty often against high-pinger since a few patches. i would clearly call this lagvantage (said it LOLOLOL). actually it isnt so bad to play with 200ms because movement is so easy to predict in this game that you can play around it. abilities like sweeping kick are harder to hit but other than that it works ok. still its a disadvantage for both teams involved in a luck and lagfest and shouldnt be something you want to have in a pvp-based competitive game.

record it, I dare ya... Cause I have no problem clicking heads when NA/EU came to AUS servers. *something coming to my head* Liar liar pants on fire :3 *shadowplay* it.

In before I don't have nvidia :3