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Blacktron
11th Apr 2015, 12:26
Metalrocks and I have been discussing the idea of bringing in player choices into Tomb Raider and I would like to convey to the TR developers some of the ideas that came forth. I would humbly request that any Crystal Dynamics employee take a look at this, because I believe that this is a way to improve the Tomb Raider experience not just for me and everyone who likes the same things as I do, but for many people with various preferences.

As in every fanbase there are obviously conflicting schools of thought on this board on what Tomb Raider and Lara Croft should be. There's oldschoolers who like the Core games, there's new fans who are ready to embrace the reboot vision of Lara with a bow instead of dual pistols. And then there are people who like the Legend-class Lara the best (I know they exist, I am one of them).

And then there's also discussion on what kind of woman Lara should be, feminine or tomboyish, rich and aristocratic or middle class, and how that should reflect in her clothing: sexy or well dressed, long trousers, short trousers... Et cetera, there's a whole wishlist of conflicting ideas.

Of course the bitter truth is that many people can never have it the way they want it, because Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are always going to be the way they are according to the vision of the creators and the writing team...



Except that is not true at all...

There is a way to cater to the wishes of several groups with conflicting ideas, by making both options available to them a letting them choose. For now we are just forced to follow Crystal Dynamics' and Rhianna Pratchett's vision on Lara and the story of Tomb Raider. But that may not be the players vision at all - I know it's not mine in many instances. It's been a long series and there's lots of fans who like this or that aspect of Tomb Raider. Changes to the series are made without our consent and may not be what we want from the series at all.
But to allow the player to tweak the experience to their preference I think allows for a greatly increased number of satisfied people. I'm gonna list some examples on how to do that. I'm gonna list them from the simplest to the most complicated.

- The easiest way is what I have been talking about for some time: to have a clothing and haircut selection menu. In the wishlist you got several requests for different haircuts, and I must say I am ready to look at something other than a dancing ponytail, no matter how brilliant the TressFX program. Hair down would be nice, with a stiff hairband or a clip to keep it from waving into her face. And the other options should obviously be ponytail and braid.
The available clothing should obvisouly include the classic outfit for all those Core fans out there, and it would be nice if we could change the colours ourselves with a little colour palette. I understand if a certain enviroment would not allow the wrong kind of clothes to be selected - like when she's on a mountain in Siberia you're only gonna allow the player to select winter clothes, that's fine.
But please try to cater to the different schools of thought here: some outfits can be a little more girlish, others are outdoor activity outfits. Some revealing, others less revealing. Some are very similar to what she was wearing in previous games. Maybe some that kinda show an aristocratic background.

- The second thing, and this is something that AdobeArtist has written many brilliant monologues on, is character development. Now I guess some people don't play Tomb Raider for story or character development, so this is something that should be easily avoidable for them. But for the others I would suggest dialogue trees like in a Telltale game for instance. When you walk up to Jonah to have a little chat one should be able to stick to the utilitarian dialogue that moves the plot forward, or keep the conversation going and do small talk with Jonah. He would then tell things about himself, his personal history, what he likes or does, things that give insight into his character. This would allow us to appreciate the characters more. I have been talking to my friends about this, and we all agreed (and that is a rare phenomenon :D) that it was hard to bond with the sidecharacters from TR9, and that we didn't really care about what was going to happen to them. There's area for improvement there.

- The third thing is about the character of Lara. I guess being the protagonist and the players proxy peoples opinions on what Lara should be and how she should behave are very strong. For now we are just forced to accept Rhianna Pratchett's vision on her. But that may not be the vision of the player. I for instance, would like to see a very different reaction from Lara when Reyes is throwing a lot fire at her.
Let's say that over the course of a game, there are five or six instances where we would have to make a choice on how to respond: I'm gonna use examples from the TR9 scenario:

* Reyes snaps at you: press L2 to cave in: 'You're right Reyes, it is my fault that we're stranded here'. Press R2 to snap back: 'Don't put that on me Reyes, the whole team agreed!'
* The wounded guy in the corner begs for death. Press L2 to grant him a merciful death. Press R2 to let him suffer.
* Alex has endangered his life to impress you. Press L2 to kiss him on the cheek for that. Press R2 to just run away.

These choices may or may not have consequenses on what will happen later in the game. If it is done that way, it increases the replayability of the game.

- Number four: kill off your friends! Now I know this is getting complicated, but what really gets on my nerves in TR9 is that two of my favourite sidecharacters die and one that I really really hate lives. There could be a way for the player to decide who will survive the adventure and who doesn't. By having sidequests that are related to that specific character. For instance: you go and talk to Alex. He explains that during the shipcrash he lost his beloved collection of comic books. Those are of great sentimental value to him. These comic books can be found all over the map. If during your travel you have found all 10 of them and return them to him, he will have a less troubled and more focussed mind and won't get trapped inside the ship, allowing you both to escape out of there.
If this is done for a number of characters, the player may consider to deliberately safe this character and let that other one die, depending who you like and who you hate. There may be some who have to stay alive to provide plot elements, and for that same reason others may have to get out of the picture, but they can still survive. For instance: if you found all 10 long pistol clips for Roth he will be able to shoot all the attackers and survive, but is wounded and the task of getting off the Island still falls on Lara now.
Again, this is great for the replayability of the game.

- Number five. Now this the big one. As it stands I suppose Tomb Raider is never gonna touch sexuality with a ten meter pole. But I'm gonna talk about it anyway, cause that's how I roll... (yeah I just wanted to say something that rhymes... anyway...)
I think it would be great asset to the Tomb Raider package if we had the possibility to let Lara get a little close with any of three young men, or... *sigh*... Saaaaaaaam, for the ones who are into that. If the latter doesn't show that this plea is not just for what I want but to give everyone the possibility to shape the adventure to their preferences I don't know what will.

Anyway, three candidates with various personalities. Such as:
* Tim the Nerd: programmer, hacker, Magic the Gathering collector, totaly devoted to the works of Stanley Kubrick.
* Derek the Highschool Jock: sportsman, rugby team captain, cheerleader connaisseur, scared in the dark.
* Daniel the Guy Next Door: guitar player, dog person, boyscout leader.

By talking to these guys by way of the above mentioned dialogue trees Lara could eventually choose to flirt with them or respond to their flirting, and eventually make out with them. Or you could just reject all of them.

Well that's it. On behalf of Metalrocks and maybe AdeleDazeem, who didn't agree with all of our plans, but I believe with some of them, I would present this plea for player choices, which I truly believe would increase the number of satisfied players. Though I hate the ugly 'post last edited at...' I may will tweak and improve this message later.

Driber
11th Apr 2015, 13:02
Metalrocks and I have been discussing the idea of bringing in player choices into Tomb Raider and I would like to convey to the TR developers some of the ideas that came forth. I would humbly request that any Crystal Dynamics employee take a look at this, because I believe that this is a way to improve the Tomb Raider experience not just for me and everyone who likes the same things as I do, but for many people with various preferences.

As in every fanbase there are obviously conflicting schools of thought on this board on what Tomb Raider and Lara Croft should be. There's oldschoolers who like the Core games, there's new fans who are ready to embrace the reboot vision of Lara with a bow instead of dual pistols. And then there are people who like the Legend-class Lara the best (I know they exist, I am one of them).

And then there's also discussion on what kind of woman Lara should be, feminine or tomboyish, rich and aristocratic or middle class, and how that should reflect in her clothing: sexy or well dressed, long trousers, short trousers... Et cetera, there's a whole wishlist of conflicting ideas.

Of course the bitter truth is that many people can never have it the way they want it, because Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are always going to be the way they are according to the vision of the creators and the writing team...



Except that is not true at all...

There is a way to cater to the wishes of several groups with conflicting ideas, by making both options available to them a letting them choose. For now we are just forced to follow Crystal Dynamics' and Rhianna Pratchett's vision on Lara and the story of Tomb Raider. But that may not be the players vision at all - I know it's not mine in many instances. It's been a long series and there's lots of fans who like this or that aspect of Tomb Raider. Changes to the series are made without our consent and may not be what we want from the series at all.
But to allow the player to tweak the experience to their preference I think allows for a greatly increased number of satisfied people. I'm gonna list some examples on how to do that. I'm gonna list them from the simplest to the most complicated.

- The easiest way is what I have been talking about for some time: to have a clothing and haircut selection menu. In the wishlist you got several requests for different haircuts, and I must say I am ready to look at something other than a dancing ponytail, no matter how brilliant the TressFX program. Hair down would be nice, with a stiff hairband or a clip to keep it from waving into her face. And the other options should obviously be ponytail and braid.
The available clothing should obvisouly include the classic outfit for all those Core fans out there, and it would be nice if we could change the colours ourselves with a little colour palette. I understand if a certain enviroment would not allow the wrong kind of clothes to be selected - like when she's on a mountain in Siberia you're only gonna allow the player to select winter clothes, that's fine.
But please try to cater to the different schools of thought here: some outfits can be a little more girlish, others are outdoor activity outfits. Some revealing, others less revealing. Some are very similar to what she was wearing in previous games. Maybe some that kinda show an aristocratic background.

- The second thing, and this is something that AdobeArtist has written many brilliant monologues on, is character development. Now I guess some people don't play Tomb Raider for story or character development, so this is something that should be easily avoidable for them. But for the others I would suggest dialogue trees like in a Telltale game for instance. When you walk up to Jonah to have a little chat one should be able to stick to the utilitarian dialogue that moves the plot forward, or keep the conversation going and do small talk with Jonah. He would then tell things about himself, his personal history, what he likes or does, things that give insight into his character. This would allow us to appreciate the characters more. I have been talking to my friends about this, and we all agreed (and that is a rare phenomenon http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.png) that it was hard to bond with the sidecharacters from TR9, and that we didn't really care about what was going to happen to them. There's area for improvement there.

- The third thing is about the character of Lara. I guess being the protagonist and the players proxy peoples opinions on what Lara should be and how she should behave are very strong. For now we are just forced to accept Rhianna Pratchett's vision on her. But that may not be the vision of the player. I for instance, would like to see a very different reaction from Lara when Reyes is throwing a lot fire at her.
Let's say that over the course of a game, there are five or six instances where we would have to make a choice on how to respond: I'm gonna use examples from the TR9 scenario:

* Reyes snaps at you: press L2 to cave in: 'You're right Reyes, it is my fault that we're stranded here'. Press R2 to snap back: 'Don't put that on me Reyes, the whole team agreed!'
* The wounded guy in the corner begs for death. Press L2 to grant him a merciful death. Press R2 to let him suffer.
* Alex has endangered his life to impress you. Press L2 to kiss him on the cheek for that. Press R2 to just run away.

These choices may or may not have consequenses on what will happen later in the game. If it is done that way, it increases the replayability of the game.

- Number four: kill off your friends! Now I know this is getting complicated, but what really gets on my nerves in TR9 is that two of my favourite sidecharacters die and one that I really really hate lives. There could be a way for the player to decide who will survive the adventure and who doesn't. By having sidequests that are related to that specific character. For instance: you go and talk to Alex. He explains that during the shipcrash he lost his beloved collection of comic books. Those are of great sentimental value to him. These comic books can be found all over the map. If during your travel you have found all 10 of them and return them to him, he will have a less troubled and more focussed mind and won't get trapped inside the ship, allowing you both to escape out of there.
If this is done for a number of characters, the player may consider to deliberately safe this character and let that other one die, depending who you like and who you hate. There may be some who have to stay alive to provide plot elements, and for that same reason others may have to get out of the picture, but they can still survive. For instance: if you found all 10 long pistol clips for Roth he will be able to shoot all the attackers and survive, but is wounded and the task of getting off the Island still falls on Lara now.
Again, this is great for the replayability of the game.

- Number five. Now this the big one. As it stands I suppose Tomb Raider is never gonna touch sexuality with a ten meter pole. But I'm gonna talk about it anyway, cause that's how I roll... (yeah I just wanted to say something that rhymes... anyway...)
I think it would be great asset to the Tomb Raider package if we had the possibility to let Lara get a little close with any of three young men, or... *sigh*... Saaaaaaaam, for the ones who are into that. If the latter doesn't show that this plea is not just for what I want but to give everyone the possibility to shape the adventure to their preferences I don't know what will.

Anyway, three candidates with various personalities. Such as:
* Tim the Nerd: programmer, hacker, Magic the Gathering collector, totaly devoted to the works of Stanley Kubrick.
* Derek the Highschool Jock: sportsman, rugby team captain, cheerleader connaisseur, scared in the dark.
* Daniel the Guy Next Door: guitar player, dog person, boyscout leader.

By talking to these guys by way of the above mentioned dialogue trees Lara could eventually choose to flirt with them or respond to their flirting, and eventually make out with them. Or you could just reject all of them.

Well that's it. On behalf of Metalrocks and maybe AdeleDazeem, who didn't agree with all of our plans, but I believe with some of them, I would present this plea for player choices, which I truly believe would increase the number of satisfied players. Though I hate the ugly 'post last edited at...' I may will tweak and improve this message later.

Sorry but I'm gonna have to disagree with your idea, Blacktron and Rowan. I do not think this approach will work. It would essentially turn TR into an RPG, and I do not think that would be a good idea as drastically changing the genre of TR makes it a very different game.

While it sounds nice at first, having players create their personal Lara Croft will just get in the way of official lore; it will blur what is Lara Croft. And thus it will open up a whole nother bunch of fan arguments anyway, which would go against what you seem to be trying to achieve in the first place :whistle:

Especially regarding player-influenced romantic relationships involving Lara, I would have to say a big fat

http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png

Heh.

The only player choices I would say are good for all fans are things like turning off hints, white ledges, camera shake, 4th wall effects, etc. I'm sure everyone would be on board with those kinds of player options. Apart from those, I say let the devs execute their vision for the games themselves :)

Charlie_T_Raider
11th Apr 2015, 14:09
I am a more classic TR gamer so for me there was nothing in the outfit selections of 2013 that I thought was good or represented Lara. I know there is a big divide with some fans want outfits that fit the context of the game and others want outfits that fit the context of the Lara persona. I hope CD won't only consider the former in main series. Some outfit choices with more femininity and the return of the Classic outfit are definately things I want to see in future TR games. For those who want to be super within context add some very grounded outfits too. Keeping everyone happy on this one is easy.

With talking to the characters I found that a very stilted way of doin't that. The main problem was we hardly got to know the characters before they were killed off so would be better to set up a proper side cast.

I like the choices to have a more or less bold Lara with in-game choices to play up more a respectful, cheeky or tough side. That would be a great idea. Is harder with significant side-cast choices though as have to make sure that one option doesn't kill off a character who then appears in the next game. I think the more customisation with choices is good but perhaps not as far as OP

Rai
11th Apr 2015, 14:10
One thing that popped out to me was the sentence:
Changes to the series are made without our consent and may not be what we want from the series at all. Now I don't know which changes you may have been specifically thinking of when you wrote that, but, imo, the only consent Crystal Dynamics need is Square Enix's, whether that's Lara's personality, backstory, gameplay elements, Lara's great aunt Bessie being introduced and other franchise staples like Winston being killed off. Of course fans have every right to express their opinions, even make requests or kick up a fuss on these changes, but to give or take consent? No. The franchise is almost 20 years old and some fans have been there from the beginning, but they shouldn't be given decision making abilities. Making suggestions, like the wish list or even this or similar thread is all good though. But if changes are made, that some fans don't like, then...well, tough poodles :p.


I'm all for certain options, like gear upgrades or even downgrades, if a player has a certain play style, like stealthy over rushing in or more of an explorer or puzzler that might upgrade certain gear to give an advantage. Difficulty settings and optional hint systems can be implemented to help make gameplay feel better suited to their style too. Hardcore players can go on max difficulty that effects the puzzles as well as combat, while people new to the franchise or casual gamers may need a bit more of a helping hand.

I am against story or character personality altering options, that feel a lot more RPG than gear-gating. I prefer a coherent set story and character development as set by Crystal and Rhianna. Story and Lara's character development in TR'13 may not have always meshed too well with gameplay in places, but I trust in CD to tell a story that is interesting and to lead Lara to a place where she's confident and happy just to be a tomb raider and a character arc that is satisfying. I'd love to learn more about the side characters, but I'm not overly keen on conversation trees or whatever or deciding their fate.You're going into too complicated territory that could mean confusing official lore created by CD. I think that some decisions should be left to the developer, even if that means some players are upset by those decisions or that the option is not there to change according to player preference.

Metalrocks
11th Apr 2015, 14:21
maybe i can clarify few points here. well, at least from my point of view.
as blacktron said; i didnt agree with some points (which i will not mention) but i personally am not talking about full RPG elements like in mass effect. rather small once that still defines lara. like i have mentioned some time ago, like choices we had in AOD. either you respond as a jerk or be nice.

a very good example would be the game "life is strange". there you play a 18 year old photographer girl named max. the choices you make certainly have an effect later on but regardless of the choices you have made, it never gave the impression that you play as your self. max reacts still the same way, regardless if she steps in between a bully or not. if she waters the plant or not. signs a petition or not, talks to the skaters and if she will make the conversation short or gets in to more details to make her more popular. and many more choices the game gives you without derailing the protagonists character.

i also like to see the clothing selection as in underworld which are suitable for the environment she is in. also having different hair styles would not harm the game either.
i personally just want some choices available that dont deflect from who lara is. just small once that have certain outcomes but will not change the ending too much. this way will lead to more replayability.

Blacktron
11th Apr 2015, 14:31
One thing that popped out to me was the sentence:

Yeah I suppose that sentence is rather poorly formulated. What I meant is that so far players had no say in what direction the series goes. That may be a problem to players who were attracted to something the series had in the beginning, or in the middle. Introducing some RPG-ish elements - not going full RPG - can solve that.

I would also like to point out that in many cases when a choice is being given one of the choices can be not to take a choice or to ignore it. Like an option in the difficulty menu that the game will choose for you - taking the path that is the creators standard vision - or in the case of the dialogue trees, just have the utilitarian dialogue.

Driber
11th Apr 2015, 14:39
One thing that popped out to me was the sentence: Now I don't know which changes you may have been specifically thinking of when you wrote that, but, imo, the only consent Crystal Dynamics need is Square Enix's, whether that's Lara's personality, backstory, gameplay elements, Lara's great aunt Bessie being introduced and other franchise staples like Winston being killed off. Of course fans have every right to express their opinions, even make requests or kick up a fuss on these changes, but to give or take consent? No. The franchise is almost 20 years old and some fans have been there from the beginning, but they shouldn't be given decision making abilities. Making suggestions, like the wish list or even this or similar thread is all good though. But if changes are made, that some fans don't like, then...well, tough poodles :p.

I very much agree. The notion that CD needs consent from the fans is kinda ridiculous and sounds very entitled if you ask me.

And I guess this also shows that because some fans have this sense of entitlement, it means that these debates on what Lara "should be like" will go on forever - it's the nature of the beast, so to speak, just like every other fandom (Star Wars, anyone? :whistle:). And this won't be solved by turning TR into an RPG.

d1n0_xD
11th Apr 2015, 14:53
As much as I like RPGs, story-options are a big no-no when it comes to TR. People get upset about "inconsistencies" as it is, and when you take casual players, or TR-only players into account, it would be all a big mess. "wait, I had this ending, isn't this what happened?", "but that guy was dead in my playthrough" and all that.

RPGs usually start with a fresh character, that represents you. So, player-choices do matter. But TR is a different genre and different storytelling is in play. That said, I do want player choices when it comes to gameplay (combat difficulty, creativity is encouraged, exploring is encouraged), her outfits (loooots of outfits, maybe not only complete outfits, but the option to choose boots, pants, shirt/jacket, and headgear separately), lots of different weapons that are customizable and have skins on them too, etc.

Driber
11th Apr 2015, 15:02
i didnt agree with some points (which i will not mention)

Why not? :) I myself would like to know which points you don't agree with, so that we can be on the same wavelength in the discussion (god knows that's been an issue in the past, heh :D). In fact, you actually reminded me that I also wanted to ask what parts of your/Blacktron's idea AdeleDazeem was disagreeing with and why, as mentioned in the OP :)


like i have mentioned some time ago, like choices we had in AOD. either you respond as a jerk or be nice.

I remember you mentioning then some time ago, yeah. And I remember pointing out that it's not really a good example, because Lara dies when you choose certain options, making the whole "option" part completely useless. When you die from making a choice, it wasn't really a choice to begin with.


a very good example would be the game "life is strange". there you play a 18 year old photographer girl named max. the choices you make certainly have an effect later on but regardless of the choices you have made, it never gave the impression that you play as your self. max reacts still the same way, regardless if she steps in between a bully or not. if she waters the plant or not. signs a petition or not, talks to the skaters and if she will make the conversation short or gets in to more details to make her more popular. and many more choices the game gives you without derailing the protagonists character.

Sorry if this sounds too dismissive, but TR isn't Life is Strange. It's a different game with a different audience. You can use as many examples of RPG games as you like, but it likely wouldn't change my view that TR doesn't lend itself well for the RPG genre. Well, outside of weapons upgrading etc, as Rai touched on a few posts back. I'm okay with those kinds of RPG elements, because those actually make sense in a TR game :)


i also like to see the clothing selection as in underworld which are suitable for the environment she is in.

I'm with you regarding a clothing selection menu. I loved that in the LAU games. But I don't agree with the necessity to limit it to the environments. The whole idea of choosing outfits is to have fun, so putting restrictions on it will just defeat its purpose.


also having different hair styles would not harm the game either.

Yes it would. See my first post in this thread, I explained there why it would.


i personally just want some choices available that dont deflect from who lara is. just small once that have certain outcomes but will not change the ending too much. this way will lead to more replayability.

I'll take things such as time runs and collecting over changing Lara's hairstyle any day of the week in the name of "re-playability".

IvanaKC
11th Apr 2015, 16:04
Of course the bitter truth is that many people can never have it the way they want it, because Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are always going to be the way they are according to the vision of the creators and the writing team...

(...)

- The third thing is about the character of Lara. I guess being the protagonist and the players proxy peoples opinions on what Lara should be and how she should behave are very strong. For now we are just forced to accept Rhianna Pratchett's vision on her. But that may not be the vision of the player. I for instance, would like to see a very different reaction from Lara when Reyes is throwing a lot fire at her.


Because that is the point of anything people create. You can't go around telling artists/writers/developers what to do, can you? Developers are not here to listen to the fans, they have their own visions like everyone else. Disagreeing is fine, but it's kinda rude to try and influence their vision.



And then there are people who like the Legend-class Lara the best (I know they exist, I am one of them).


Yup, my fav TR is Legend too. :thumb:




- The easiest way is what I have been talking about for some time: to have a clothing and haircut selection menu. In the wishlist you got several requests for different haircuts, and I must say I am ready to look at something other than a dancing ponytail, no matter how brilliant the TressFX program. Hair down would be nice, with a stiff hairband or a clip to keep it from waving into her face. And the other options should obviously be ponytail and braid.
The available clothing should obvisouly include the classic outfit for all those Core fans out there, and it would be nice if we could change the colours ourselves with a little colour palette. I understand if a certain enviroment would not allow the wrong kind of clothes to be selected - like when she's on a mountain in Siberia you're only gonna allow the player to select winter clothes, that's fine.
But please try to cater to the different schools of thought here: some outfits can be a little more girlish, others are outdoor activity outfits. Some revealing, others less revealing. Some are very similar to what she was wearing in previous games. Maybe some that kinda show an aristocratic background.


We did have outfits to choose so far so I'm not against that. However, hairstyles? When you're outside, there is no reason for having your hair down especially if you have to avoid traps. Hairstyle defines character - more than clothes and clothes has to change depending on the weather in real life anyway. So no, I don't want customizable Lara.



- The second thing, and this is something that AdobeArtist has written many brilliant monologues on, is character development. Now I guess some people don't play Tomb Raider for story or character development, so this is something that should be easily avoidable for them. But for the others I would suggest dialogue trees like in a Telltale game for instance. When you walk up to Jonah to have a little chat one should be able to stick to the utilitarian dialogue that moves the plot forward, or keep the conversation going and do small talk with Jonah. He would then tell things about himself, his personal history, what he likes or does, things that give insight into his character. This would allow us to appreciate the characters more. I have been talking to my friends about this, and we all agreed (and that is a rare phenomenon :D) that it was hard to bond with the sidecharacters from TR9, and that we didn't really care about what was going to happen to them. There's area for improvement there.


This I wouldn't mind. But it shouldn't affect the story in any way. Those kind of information should be there only to give the player relatively "irrelevant" info, if you know what I mean.




These choices may or may not have consequenses on what will happen later in the game. If it is done that way, it increases the replayability of the game.


Look at the TRL replayability... :whistle:




- Number four: kill off your friends! Now I know this is getting complicated, but what really gets on my nerves in TR9 is that two of my favourite sidecharacters die and one that I really really hate lives. There could be a way for the player to decide who will survive the adventure and who doesn't. By having sidequests that are related to that specific character. For instance: you go and talk to Alex. He explains that during the shipcrash he lost his beloved collection of comic books. Those are of great sentimental value to him. These comic books can be found all over the map. If during your travel you have found all 10 of them and return them to him, he will have a less troubled and more focussed mind and won't get trapped inside the ship, allowing you both to escape out of there.
If this is done for a number of characters, the player may consider to deliberately safe this character and let that other one die, depending who you like and who you hate. There may be some who have to stay alive to provide plot elements, and for that same reason others may have to get out of the picture, but they can still survive. For instance: if you found all 10 long pistol clips for Roth he will be able to shoot all the attackers and survive, but is wounded and the task of getting off the Island still falls on Lara now.
Again, this is great for the replayability of the game.

- Number five. Now this the big one. As it stands I suppose Tomb Raider is never gonna touch sexuality with a ten meter pole. But I'm gonna talk about it anyway, cause that's how I roll... (yeah I just wanted to say something that rhymes... anyway...)
I think it would be great asset to the Tomb Raider package if we had the possibility to let Lara get a little close with any of three young men, or... *sigh*... Saaaaaaaam, for the ones who are into that. If the latter doesn't show that this plea is not just for what I want but to give everyone the possibility to shape the adventure to their preferences I don't know what will.

Anyway, three candidates with various personalities. Such as:
* Tim the Nerd: programmer, hacker, Magic the Gathering collector, totaly devoted to the works of Stanley Kubrick.
* Derek the Highschool Jock: sportsman, rugby team captain, cheerleader connaisseur, scared in the dark.
* Daniel the Guy Next Door: guitar player, dog person, boyscout leader.

By talking to these guys by way of the above mentioned dialogue trees Lara could eventually choose to flirt with them or respond to their flirting, and eventually make out with them. Or you could just reject all of them.


This all has a direct influence of story. There would be exactly the same problem Deus Ex has at this moment - there are 4 different endings and developers have to find a solution for the story to make sense whatever ending you chose (there's even s possibility that none of them are cannon).

To sum up, there are too many games that try to tell their story that way - with choices. But then again, they are imagined to be like that from the start. TR isn't and like that the story is like reading a book. Don't we have enough RPG's already? I feel like nowadays there's a sick need for being in charge of everything in the game you play - if the story doesn't go like you want to, it's bad; if you can't change the whole appearance of a character, even worse, and so on. Why don't people go and make their own games if they aren't capable of accepting the developer's ideas? :rolleyes:




http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png


This one had to be posted so badly. The Universe expected you to post it. :lol:




While it sounds nice at first, having players create their personal Lara Croft will just get in the way of official lore; it will blur what is Lara Croft. And thus it will open up a whole nother bunch of fan arguments anyway, which would go against what you seem to be trying to achieve in the first place :whistle:

(...)

The only player choices I would say are good for all fans are things like turning off hints, white ledges, camera shake, 4th wall effects, etc. I'm sure everyone would be on board with those kinds of player options. Apart from those, I say let the devs execute their vision for the games themselves :)


:thumb:

Metalrocks
11th Apr 2015, 16:07
lol. the points i disagree with were mainly discussed in private. ;) thats why i said i will not mention them. besides, they arent on the list.

regarding the AOD choices. ok, i should have made my self clearer on that. you still have these options but without the consequence of dieing if you choose to be a jerk. thats something that failed in this aspect. you still can be a jerk but without the fatal outcome.

obviously not everyone will agree with the example with the "life is strange" mechanics. i guess you have played it. you (and others) may not see it happening or even see it working in a TR game, but i can very well imagine it without derailing too much from the TR formula.

about the hair:
ok, so maybe we can have a selection of hair styles that lara would actually have. even if it would be just 2 or 3 of them but at least the choice is there. we could have:
1. pony tail
2. braid.
3. open hair

these are at least the hair styles we saw lara having.

Driber
11th Apr 2015, 16:38
To sum up, there are too many games that try to tell their story that way - with choices. But then again, they are imagined to be like that from the start. TR isn't and like that the story is like reading a book. Don't we have enough RPG's already? I feel like nowadays there's a sick need for being in charge of everything in the game you play - if the story doesn't go like you want to, it's bad; if you can't change the whole appearance of a character, even worse, and so on. Why don't people go and make their own games if they aren't capable of accepting the developer's ideas? :rolleyes:

What's the saying again... Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.


This one had to be posted so badly. The Universe expected you to post it. :lol:

:D


lol. the points i disagree with were mainly discussed in private. ;) thats why i said i will not mention them. besides, they arent on the list.

O......k. If those "points" you mentioned you disagreed with aren't even part of this discussion to begin with, then why even mention something so completely irrelevant here :p


regarding the AOD choices. ok, i should have made my self clearer on that. you still have these options but without the consequence of dieing if you choose to be a jerk. thats something that failed in this aspect. you still can be a jerk but without the fatal outcome.

As far as I know, those "options" in AoD were completely useless. Just superficially put in there to give the game an RPG feel, while utterly failing at it.


obviously not everyone will agree with the example with the "life is strange" mechanics. i guess you have played it. you (and others) may not see it happening or even see it working in a TR game, but i can very well imagine it without derailing too much from the TR formula.

Right, and I can't see how it's going to benefit supposedly "all fans". As you can see already from the responses here there is strong opposition to the idea.

But good that you at least admit that it would be derailing from the TR formula, lol.


about the hair:
ok, so maybe we can have a selection of hair styles that lara would actually have. even if it would be just 2 or 3 of them but at least the choice is there. we could have:
1. pony tail
2. braid.
3. open hair

Nope, still not in favor of that. I'll let the devs decide how Lara is going to wear her hair, and the fans will just have to accept it. For better or for worse.

Metalrocks
11th Apr 2015, 16:52
because he mentioned it right at the beginning with the discussion we had about what we agree on and not. wanted to state it that he didnt make it up. even when you might see it as pointless.

useless or not. if they would have done it right, it would be really a nice addition with these choices. and i didnt admit that it will derail from the formula.

ok, so you and others dont agree with my opinion. maybe others might consider it later on.

Driber
11th Apr 2015, 17:10
because he mentioned it right at the beginning with the discussion we had about what we agree on and not. wanted to state it that he didnt make it up. even when you might see it as pointless.

Uhm... he didn't even say that at all. He said that AdeleDazeem disagreed with some of the things of "the idea". He said that you were on board with everything in the OP.

I know, I know, this is getting completely pedantic, lol :p


useless or not. if they would have done it right, it would be really a nice addition with these choices.

But they didn't, and that's why it's a bad example.


and i didnt admit that it will derail from the formula.

Yes you did. Read your post again ;)


ok, so you and others dont agree with my opinion. maybe others might consider it later on.

It's not a numbers game. My point was that the responses so far already show that this idea of yours is not the holy grail which all fans would be on board with and which would cease fandom in-fighting, which is how you presented it.

AdeleDazeem
11th Apr 2015, 17:13
AdeleDazeem was disagreeing with and why, as mentioned in the OP :)


I'm here, I'm here. A bit out of the loop, but okay. ^^

- Lara is, indeed, an already established character. Like the post above say: RPGs usually start out with a fresh character the player can identify with.
- 'Choices matter' is something for Mass Effect or Dragon Age to play with. 1 choice you make can chance the entire course of your story, making 7000 other Tomb Raiders within one game. So a dialogue wheel, deciding who to save, romancing etc.. in my opinion: not Tomb Raider matterial.
- Small choices are fine with me, ones that don't change the course of the plot. Like in TR9 where you can either relieve a guy from his missery or leave him to suffer. That was awesome and unexpected. It didn't change the plot, but it did add some dept for a moment. Little player's choices like those are fun to add, as long as they don't add too many and make it an RPG.

Metalrocks
12th Apr 2015, 01:46
Uhm... he didn't even say that at all. He said that AdeleDazeem disagreed with some of the things of "the idea". He said that you were on board with everything in the OP.

I know, I know, this is getting completely pedantic, lol :p

dyslexia strikes again. :rolleyes:



But they didn't, and that's why it's a bad example.

cant see why its an bad example. only because it failed in AOD doesnt mean it cant be done again later on. only it should be done right.



Yes you did. Read your post again ;)

i said "without derailing too much". clearly mentioning about small changes. not a complete U-turn.



It's not a numbers game. My point was that the responses so far already show that this idea of yours is not the holy grail which all fans would be on board with and which would cease fandom in-fighting, which is how you presented it.

numbers or not. the thread here is still fresh. others may agree with me at some time. and if not, well, so they dont. i never said my idea/opinion is the holy grail or anything special. just stating my opinion as to why i think it would work. its obvious i cant expect everyone to agree with me.

Driber
12th Apr 2015, 09:46
I'm here, I'm here. A bit out of the loop, but okay. ^^

- Lara is, indeed, an already established character. Like the post above say: RPGs usually start out with a fresh character the player can identify with.
- 'Choices matter' is something for Mass Effect or Dragon Age to play with. 1 choice you make can chance the entire course of your story, making 7000 other Tomb Raiders within one game. So a dialogue wheel, deciding who to save, romancing etc.. in my opinion: not Tomb Raider matterial.
- Small choices are fine with me, ones that don't change the course of the plot. Like in TR9 where you can either relieve a guy from his missery or leave him to suffer. That was awesome and unexpected. It didn't change the plot, but it did add some dept for a moment. Little player's choices like those are fun to add, as long as they don't add too many and make it an RPG.

Thanks for sharing, AD :) :thumb:

I don't remember that guy in TR9, though. Anyone knows where exactly in the story that happened?


dyslexia strikes again. :rolleyes:

Heh. Don't worry about it :D


cant see why its an bad example.

Okay I'll try to explain it with an analogy.

Person A: "I would like to see bread with cornflakes on top instead of sesame seeds. It'll be delicious!"

Person B: "I don't think putting cornflakes on top of loafs of bread would be a good idea."

Person A: "I'm sure it'll work. Why do I think so? Well, just look at the bakery on the corner of the street, he bakes bread with cornflakes."

Person B: "But the bakery on the corner leaves those breads too long in his oven, the cornflakes are always burned, no one buys them."

Person A: "Oh well, maybe so, but if he didn't burn them, people would like it, I'm sure of it. My example with the bakery on the corner was still a good example."

Person B: :nut:


See what I'm getting at? :D


i said "without derailing too much". clearly mentioning about small changes. not a complete U-turn.

I wasn't talking about a complete U-turn ;)


numbers or not. the thread here is still fresh. others may agree with me at some time.

Yeah you already said that, and I said that it doesn't really matter regarding the whole "holy grail" idea as you presented in the OP; it clearly won't work if there's already such strong opposition to the idea right from the get go. Not saying people shouldn't bother posting replies supporting (parts of) the idea, of course :)


i never said my idea/opinion is the holy grail or anything special.

Well I beg to differ. The whole OP very much reads like this grand idea that is going to stop (or at the very least dramatically decrease) fandom in-fighting about who Lara is and all that. While in reality it'll just make things more complicated, ensuring more fandom in-fighting.

I can just see it now...

Fan A: "I looooove how Lara fell in love with Tim in the latest game. They make such a cute nerdy couple :) :) :) ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥"

Fan B: "No she didn't. Lara fell in love with Sam. She's a lesbian and not into guys at all. Quit dreaming! :p :p :p"

:whistle:

Metalrocks
12th Apr 2015, 11:19
lol. nice analogy but i guess i have to be stubborn and say it doenst fly with me. but i do get the meaning from your point of view.

ok, so you beg the differ. i said my opinion :)

a_big_house
12th Apr 2015, 13:34
♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

:eek: But HOW!?

AdeleDazeem
12th Apr 2015, 17:35
Thanks for sharing, AD :) :thumb:
I don't remember that guy in TR9, though. Anyone knows where exactly in the story that happened?

Erm.. it's here (https://youtu.be/a7guhEXHex8?t=6m45s). You can either relieve him or walk away. ;)

Driber
12th Apr 2015, 22:04
lol. nice analogy but i guess i have to be stubborn and say it doenst fly with me. but i do get the meaning from your point of view.

ok, so you beg the differ. i said my opinion :)

Heh, fair enough, agree to disagree :)


:eek: But HOW!?

How what? :scratch:


Erm.. it's here (https://youtu.be/a7guhEXHex8?t=6m45s). You can either relieve him or walk away. ;)

I see. Hmm, don't really recall that guy. Nor Lara's response "go to hell". But yeah, I agree with you - things like that are fine.

Thanks for finding that clip for me, AD. Appreciate it! :)

a_big_house
13th Apr 2015, 19:08
How what? :scratch:

How did you make the pretty love hearts :3

Driber
14th Apr 2015, 17:06
Ah. Just copypaste it from any ASCII chart :)

http://chexed.com/ComputerTips/asciicodes.php

AlexWeiss
15th Apr 2015, 01:20
I don't agree with the choice idea mostly because I don't see a need for it and I agree with Driber in that it might feel too much like an RPG then (perhaps when I read the other responses in a few hours, something will convince me otherwise. EDIT: they didn't :p). Most of the things that divide the fanbase on who we think Lara is are too major. As the OP mentioned, some see her as middle class, aristocratic, sexy, the "somewhere in between attractive but not in your face" sexy, etc. The story does rely on who Lara is as a person in a way because of the fact that her personality affects her decisions (example, if Lara had been more of a loner like classic in 2013, she would've abandoned most of the people there, and that would've changed who was or wasn't in the next game). It would honestly be no different than Dragon Age II in terms of character. I'd rather not people be saying, "Well my Lara (or Hawke if we're talkin' DA) was super sexy rich lady (DA: sarcastic/nice/the other option I don't remember)."

I don't think it's a horrible idea, because it really isn't, I just don't think it fits the series. I think they have the chance right now to get the best of both worlds, and if they wanted to they could allow for customization (i.e. ponytail/braid, outfits, etc., as you mentioned), though I don't see it happening.

Chaugmar
15th Apr 2015, 15:04
Going back to more unlockable outfits approach like Legend and Anniversary does seem like something they should do but the rest seem too difficult to implement. They have to choose a Lara that has enough of the familiar elements for the traditionalists while still pushing forward their vision. Myself I would like to see more elegance with things like the Manor back.

Gitb97
15th Apr 2015, 16:59
I am a more classic TR gamer so for me there was nothing in the outfit selections of 2013 that I thought was good or represented Lara. I know there is a big divide with some fans want outfits that fit the context of the game and others want outfits that fit the context of the Lara persona. I hope CD won't only consider the former in main series. Some outfit choices with more femininity and the return of the Classic outfit are definately things I want to see in future TR games. For those who want to be super within context add some very grounded outfits too. Keeping everyone happy on this one is easy.

With talking to the characters I found that a very stilted way of doin't that. The main problem was we hardly got to know the characters before they were killed off so would be better to set up a proper side cast.

I like the choices to have a more or less bold Lara with in-game choices to play up more a respectful, cheeky or tough side. That would be a great idea. Is harder with significant side-cast choices though as have to make sure that one option doesn't kill off a character who then appears in the next game. I think the more customisation with choices is good but perhaps not as far as OP

Sorry i'm on my phone so I can't just quote the part i'm referring to cause my phone sucks ��

In underworld there was the option to wear a shorts and tank top outfit and then there was the long trousers option too, I don't think I class underworld Lara as "Classic" though
But that option was there then, so it could easily be put into rottr too despite it probably not being approriate at all or fitting but each to their own

a_big_house
15th Apr 2015, 20:37
Sorry for the late input, but I needed time to collate my thoughts :lol: But here;


...Of course the bitter truth is that many people can never have it the way they want it, because Tomb Raider and Lara Croft are always going to be the way they are according to the vision of the creators and the writing team...

Except that is not true at all...

Except that's the way it should be; we don't own the franchise.


- The easiest way is what I have been talking about for some time: to have a clothing and haircut selection menu. In the wishlist you got several requests for different haircuts, and I must say I am ready to look at something other than a dancing ponytail, no matter how brilliant the TressFX program. Hair down would be nice, with a stiff hairband or a clip to keep it from waving into her face. And the other options should obviously be ponytail and braid.
The available clothing should obvisouly include the classic outfit for all those Core fans out there, and it would be nice if we could change the colours ourselves with a little colour palette. I understand if a certain enviroment would not allow the wrong kind of clothes to be selected - like when she's on a mountain in Siberia you're only gonna allow the player to select winter clothes, that's fine.
But please try to cater to the different schools of thought here: some outfits can be a little more girlish, others are outdoor activity outfits. Some revealing, others less revealing. Some are very similar to what she was wearing in previous games. Maybe some that kinda show an aristocratic background.
Pre-set outfits, yes. Haircuts, absolutely no. People complain enough already that they cannot recognise Lara, I really don't think giving people the ability to make Lara look like whatever will just be stupid IMO



- The second thing, and this is something that AdobeArtist has written many brilliant monologues on, is character development. Now I guess some people don't play Tomb Raider for story or character development, so this is something that should be easily avoidable for them. But for the others I would suggest dialogue trees like in a Telltale game for instance. When you walk up to Jonah to have a little chat one should be able to stick to the utilitarian dialogue that moves the plot forward, or keep the conversation going and do small talk with Jonah. He would then tell things about himself, his personal history, what he likes or does, things that give insight into his character. This would allow us to appreciate the characters more. I have been talking to my friends about this, and we all agreed (and that is a rare phenomenon :D) that it was hard to bond with the sidecharacters from TR9, and that we didn't really care about what was going to happen to them. There's area for improvement there.

I can live with that


- The third thing is about the character of Lara. I guess being the protagonist and the players proxy peoples opinions on what Lara should be and how she should behave are very strong. For now we are just forced to accept Rhianna Pratchett's vision on her. But that may not be the vision of the player. I for instance, would like to see a very different reaction from Lara when Reyes is throwing a lot fire at her.
Let's say that over the course of a game, there are five or six instances where we would have to make a choice on how to respond: I'm gonna use examples from the TR9 scenario:

I'm not Rhianna's biggest fan, but even that sounds a tad arrogant to me. I'm sure Rhianna isn't the only person who is crafting this Lara, and CD definitely wouldn't release a game with a character that they don't feel 'works' (for the lack of a better word)




* Reyes snaps at you: press L2 to cave in: 'You're right Reyes, it is my fault that we're stranded here'. Press R2 to snap back: 'Don't put that on me Reyes, the whole team agreed!'
* The wounded guy in the corner begs for death. Press L2 to grant him a merciful death. Press R2 to let him suffer.
* Alex has endangered his life to impress you. Press L2 to kiss him on the cheek for that. Press R2 to just run away.

These choices may or may not have consequenses on what will happen later in the game. If it is done that way, it increases the replayability of the game.

What benefit would that have, other than causing confusion?



- Number four: kill off your friends!...

Although I like the idea of having to find collectables that directly relate to a characters personality/lifestyle, I definitely don't think having these items direct effect the progression in the game would work. The best example I can think of is a completionist vs a casual player, they'd end up with different story/plot points and that would just get confusing.



- Number five. Now this the big one. As it stands I suppose Tomb Raider is never gonna touch sexuality with a ten meter pole. But I'm gonna talk about it anyway, cause that's how I roll... (yeah I just wanted to say something that rhymes... anyway...)
I think it would be great asset to the Tomb Raider package if we had the possibility to let Lara get a little close with any of three young men, or... *sigh*... Saaaaaaaam, for the ones who are into that. If the latter doesn't show that this plea is not just for what I want but to give everyone the possibility to shape the adventure to their preferences I don't know what will.

Anyway, three candidates with various personalities. Such as:
* Tim the Nerd: programmer, hacker, Magic the Gathering collector, totaly devoted to the works of Stanley Kubrick.
* Derek the Highschool Jock: sportsman, rugby team captain, cheerleader connaisseur, scared in the dark.
* Daniel the Guy Next Door: guitar player, dog person, boyscout leader.

By talking to these guys by way of the above mentioned dialogue trees Lara could eventually choose to flirt with them or respond to their flirting, and eventually make out with them. Or you could just reject all of them.
So, stereotypes? As much as I'd like to see Lara fall in love, I definitely feel right now that Lara should find her footing in the world she's just discovering before tackling romance. To add to that, as a couple other members have said (not just in this thread), that an optional romance just wouldn't work, there would be too much arguing and/or confusion, if CD ever decide to explore Lara's sexual side, then I'd rather everyone have to experience the same thing, rather than it be optional altogether.

Because that is the point of anything people create. You can't go around telling artists/writers/developers what to do, can you? Developers are not here to listen to the fans, they have their own visions like everyone else. Disagreeing is fine, but it's kinda rude to try and influence their vision.


I really can't disagree with this; I think as a fanbase, we're very lucky to have Meagan, Robin and all the other silent devs who take the time to communication with us fans and try to give us what we want, it's much more than they ever need to do.

Driber
15th Apr 2015, 21:16
I'm not Rhianna's biggest fan, but even that sounds a tad arrogant to me. I'm sure Rhianna isn't the only person who is crafting this Lara, and CD definitely wouldn't release a game with a character that they don't feel 'works' (for the lack of a better word)

Not only does that indeed sound arrogant, it is also completely wrong. We're not experiencing "Rhianna's vision", we're experiencing Crystal's vision of TR. Rhianna is a writer which Crystal has commissioned to flesh out the vision that Crystal tells Rhianna to write.

Furthermore to the point, Rhianna is a co-writer for TR10; there are other writers working alongside her to flesh out Crystal's vision.


I really can't disagree with this; I think as a fanbase, we're very lucky to have Meagan, Robin and all the other silent devs who take the time to communication with us fans and try to give us what we want, it's much more than they ever need to do.

I'll even go one step further and say that the other devs are far from "silent". Just listen to all the podcasts, there are many devs who Meagan interviews, so we get to hear from a whole bunch of team members, not just the public faces Meagan and Robin :)

a_big_house
15th Apr 2015, 21:21
Not only does that indeed sound arrogant, it is also completely wrong. We're not experiencing "Rhianna's vision", we're experiencing Crystal's vision of TR. Rhianna is a writer which Crystal has commissioned to flesh out the vision that Crystal tells Rhianna to write.

Furthermore to the point, Rhianna is a co-writer for TR10; there are other writers working alongside her to flesh out Crystal's vision.
:thumb: I for one am glad that someone is fleshing Lara out, as much as a love arcade Lara, it's nice to see some personality in her :)


I'll even go one step further and say that the devs not definitely not "silent". Just listen to all the podcasts.
By silent, I meant don't post here, I always read the podcast transcripts though :D

Driber
15th Apr 2015, 21:37
:thumb: I for one am glad that someone is fleshing Lara out, as much as a love arcade Lara, it's nice to see some personality in her :)

I wouldn't say old Lara lacked personality, not by a long shot. But I think I know what you mean, and I agree, for better or for worse, consistency is far more important than trying to appease all the fans with entitlement issues.


By silent, I meant don't post here, I always read the podcast transcripts though :D

Ah right, gotcha :)

Thetford
18th Apr 2015, 19:32
In terms of player choices, when I read the title, I was expecting more along the lines of during gameplay itself รก la TRIII, which not only had choices in which order you took the middle levels, but how you go about through them, with several routes to proceed, like how you get into Le Serpant Rouge in AOD, and a lot of backtracking, allowing you to choose which order you take to achieve the tasks of that level, like the Egyption Tombs in TRLR just outside of that town.

With more RPG elements, I'm not really sure what they could do with it. Human interaction tends to be rather limited in a Tomb Raider game, with what limited there is is to further the game's plot, so even a romance is out of the question, compare this with Bioware's games, where there is a lot of human(oid) interaction, and romances tend to tag along with you as part of the party. AOD tried to add some, but it was very limited, essentially the only consequence was that one interaction where Bouchard would shoot her, and the purchasing of the gun from the journalist in Prague.

Error96_
18th Apr 2015, 20:38
Everyone has different vision of what Lara is. I saw the relic runner art and thought THIS for me is Lara croft - bold, confident and full of attitude. Her intelligence and elegance are important too.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/c2d31341a433cc4675e08ebe1a517b98/tumblr_nmr43viTRD1qkq7tbo2_r1_500.jpg

Give me this as a choice and I am really happy. I am sure other people may post reboot Lara in the same way. With something like outfit choice absolutely let us have some choices. Some fans want practical others stylish, some want sexy (in an elegant way) and others more covered up. This is somewhere that giving player choice works. We got that in Legend and LCTOO and it worked very well but the limited choices in TR(2013) badly disappointed. Give us lots of variety including classics outfit. Would be better to pull the Lara's of the LC and TR series together with more attire choices than them keep them as almost different women.

The options over more choice within the game are much harder to engeenineer and could put lots of work into to the game that people choose differently and miss out on. I like that Lara could have some dialogue options to be sarcastic or friendly but killing off different characters based on choices may not work. Letting tasks be done in different orders is a cool idea to decrease linearity.


I wouldn't say old Lara lacked personality, not by a long shot. But I think I know what you mean, and I agree, for better or for worse, consistency is far more important than trying to appease all the fans with entitlement issues.

To me old Lara had more personality as she had way more quirks that the current Lara.

Driber
18th Apr 2015, 21:50
To me old Lara had more personality as she had way more quirks that the current Lara.

You mean like new Lara is more "goody two shoes" than old Lara?

Error96_
19th Apr 2015, 01:00
You mean like new Lara is more "goody two shoes" than old Lara?

Not quite. I think the old Lara had more sass. She had proper flowing banter with other characters like Von Croy (TRLR), Alistair/Zip/Rutland (TRL) or Larson (TR1/TRA). She doesn't say many off beam things like she did before. Though her interaction with Roth was very good her conversations with other crew members felt very scripted. When Rayes is challenging her you are just waiting for the clever one liner or for her to suddenly lose her temper over being stuck on the island. The same mood throughout came off as a bit grey. A cheesecake is okay but you can add some lemon flavour to it like say throw in some of her witty sense of humour or casual chat with Sam to contrast with the more serious vibe she had.

On other parts going forward having more varied and colourful outfits will show more personality expression than grey and Croft Manor could bring opportunities for more classiness so maybe these help add more tones

Driber
19th Apr 2015, 10:23
Not quite. I think the old Lara had more sass. She had proper flowing banter with other characters like Von Croy (TRLR), Alistair/Zip/Rutland (TRL) or Larson (TR1/TRA). She doesn't say many off beam things like she did before. Though her interaction with Roth was very good her conversations with other crew members felt very scripted. When Rayes is challenging her you are just waiting for the clever one liner or for her to suddenly lose her temper over being stuck on the island. The same mood throughout came off as a bit grey. A cheesecake is okay but you can add some lemon flavour to it like say throw in some of her witty sense of humour or casual chat with Sam to contrast with the more serious vibe she had.

On other parts going forward having more varied and colourful outfits will show more personality expression than grey and Croft Manor could bring opportunities for more classiness so maybe these help add more tones

Ah right, I get what you mean now. Well, I guess the argument could be made that new Lara simply needs a longer time to get to that witty and sassy Croft than old (16 year old) Lara did. Hopefully we'll see more and more of the iconic Lara traits with each new instalment in the rebooted series :)

And I'm with you on Croft manor and many outfits. Bring it on, heh.

AlexWeiss
21st Apr 2015, 21:13
I really can't disagree with this; I think as a fanbase, we're very lucky to have Meagan, Robin and all the other silent devs who take the time to communication with us fans and try to give us what we want, it's much more than they ever need to do.

I'll even go one step further and say that the other devs are far from "silent". Just listen to all the podcasts, there are many devs who Meagan interviews, so we get to hear from a whole bunch of team members, not just the public faces Meagan and Robin :)
We really are quite lucky, I've never felt unliked by the dev team before and really appreciate that they take time to actually talk to us. I'm positive they get annoyed with us sometimes, but there are a lot of companies (*cough* EA) that rarely have much care for their followers other than what's in their wallet.

Not quite. I think the old Lara had more sass. She had proper flowing banter with other characters like Von Croy (TRLR), Alistair/Zip/Rutland (TRL) or Larson (TR1/TRA).
I believe that it's really a confidence thing right now; Lara just really doesn't want to hurt or offend anyone I don't think. She's certainly closer to her years of teen angst than classic Lara as she's just fresh out of that time anyway. Reading the comics, I sense a change in that coming soon, though. She's gaining a nice bit of confidence back again.

When Rayes is challenging her you are just waiting for the clever one liner
"It seems anyone caught with you has a pretty low survival rate."
"Better keep your distance then."
BOOM :p I know what you're getting at, though. Those one-liners were few an far between, I would like to see more.

Manx_a_million
5th May 2015, 16:20
I like having some choice say in a level like St Frances Folly or Midas Palace where you can get the keys in whatever order you want then it feels more like you explore than the game tell you exactly where to go next the whole way through.

A wider range of outfits sound a lot of fun to come back but the idea of different stories based on different choice sound like it get confusing.

IvanaKC
5th May 2015, 18:25
I like having some choice say in a level like St Frances Folly or Midas Palace where you can get the keys in whatever order you want then it feels more like you explore than the game tell you exactly where to go next the whole way through.

That's gameplay related - a variety every player wants, doesn't affect the story. I'm all for it, of course. ;)

Driber
5th May 2015, 19:56
^ Ditto :)

Tecstar70
5th May 2015, 20:24
At the moment I can't see how the current games can dovetail into the classic style of game play. I hope they can, but I worry they will become too open world in the process.

a_big_house
5th May 2015, 20:43
Tomb of the swamp monster - Go left, save Sam. Go right, get some loot. Once you've done one, do the other then leave :D

IvanaKC
5th May 2015, 20:50
Tomb of the swamp monster - Go left, save Sam. Go right, get some loot. Once you've done one, do the other then leave :D

Someone's pouring gasoline on the fire... :whistle:

a_big_house
5th May 2015, 20:59
Who, me? Nooo.... :D

Hand_of_Midas
6th May 2015, 14:20
I like hearing the story Crystal have to tell rather than try to change it but agree with those who want to see more outfits.