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reallybigjohnson
9th Apr 2015, 02:57
If you are going to give more points for non-lethal take downs than lethal ones then at least make them more difficult and less effective. The non-lethal weapons were bar none the best weapons in the game. The dart gun and non-lethal finishing moves let you cakewalk all the levels (cept that one with the crashed vertibird) and you were rewarded with bonus points for using the easier system. The dart gun one shots everyone including heavily armored guys that take several rounds from any other weapon. Non-lethal take downs not only gave you the extra points but why would you bother using the lethal takedowns anyways? The NPCs were out the entire time you were in the level and they were silent because apparently in Eidos world grabbing someone and flipping them over and smashing them on the ground is less noisy than stabbing someone through the back with a blade. :rolleyes:

No more forced third person takedowns. Leave it in first person view or at least have the option for it. Anyone who has played Skyrim with the Enhanced Camera mod can tell you that playing a werewolf in first person view is much more satisfying than in third person. First person takedowns work just fine in Dishonored, Dark Messiah and others. If I wanted to play a third person game I would choose an actual third person game. I don't care about how awesome you think your animations are, don't make me watch them over and over and over again and I don't need to see him climbing a ladder.

Why was the 10mm pistol a better sniper weapon than the actual sniper weapons? Once you got the armor piercing and laser sight upgrades you were a sniper God.

Where are my boob implants? I am half machine anyways so why not go all the way? Why the focus on just the legs and arms and head? Why not have boob missile launchers, DD cup please. Biomechanical testicles that drop exploding caltrops would also be cool.

Give me a reason to invest in extra energy bars. There was literally no reason at all to invest in extra energy bars because everything cost one bar including multi-takedowns. The only thing I invested in was the recharge rate and even that wasn't really all that necessary.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Apr 2015, 04:08
You know what I want to see? Conversations like these:

https://youtu.be/1b-bijO3uEw (Morpheus)

https://youtu.be/7aIXwMc20TE (Leo Gold)

https://youtu.be/FoTeWB7JWIs (Simons and the NSF prisoners)

That kind of mature, sophisticated, well-researched and well-written dialogue is what was sorely missing from DXHR (and most of the promotional material I've seen so far for DXMD). I want actual ideas, actual debates and real human conflict, not just a bunch of characters tossing out the word "transhumanism" a few times to try to sound intelligent before cutting back to another montage of 3rd person cinematic takedowns.

zwanzig_zwoelf
9th Apr 2015, 08:06
bro i hope that mccann will stop making boring music and will focus on dubstep instead this is the best combat track and it will suit action perfectly why mccann doesnt use it is beyond me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86khmc6y1yE

Avenging_Teabag
9th Apr 2015, 08:30
You know what I want to see? Conversations like these:

https://youtu.be/1b-bijO3uEw (Morpheus)

https://youtu.be/7aIXwMc20TE (Leo Gold)

https://youtu.be/FoTeWB7JWIs (Simons and the NSF prisoners)


Dat voiceacting doh.

CHERNO-B1LL
9th Apr 2015, 09:27
Dat voiceacting doh.

I'm with phoenix on this. I played this game through and had no qualms about the voice acting. It kind of fits. The dude had a ****ed up life, he is bioengineered and groomed from birth to be an elite weapon. I didn't expect, or want for, a wisecracking renegade.

There was a lot more life in other characters too. Warrren Spectre said he actually told JC's VO to tone down emotion, less variation in tone. Less drama. It was a brave artistic choice, I think it worked even though some of it was hammy. Though they knew that, the russian sailor's 'I spilled my drink' sound bite in the volume slider menu is testament to that.

You could literally walk past that Morpheaus discussion and you could walk away at any point if you didn't keep talking to it. It went deeper and deeper down that rabbit hole. Same for Leo Gold, you could just blow him away and you would never know there was another way. It really rewarded people who wanted to try something different and think about their actions. You learned stuff, all of the dialogue in those links is legit; the science, the politics, the philosphy. Where was that in Human revolution. I don't think I learned anything new in that game.

CyberP
9th Apr 2015, 11:25
I like you, new guy. Keep the truth flowing! You have a lot of jaded worn-out revolutionaries to succeed.

Avenging_Teabag
9th Apr 2015, 11:47
The voiceacting was really, really bad, with occasional half decent bits and occasional slides into "so bad it's good" territory. In the terrorist leader convo they both sound ike cdr. Shepard from the original Mass Effect, only if he was zonked on prozac and also a robot. The conversations were okay, but really nothing more groundbreaking than some of the conversational duels in Human Revolution.

CHERNO-B1LL
9th Apr 2015, 12:18
I like you, new guy. Keep the truth flowing! You have a lot of jaded worn-out revolutionaries to succeed.

Who's that now @CyberP? OP or myself?

I'm actually a bastard from the old forum. I'm fairly sure Wildcat, Teabag and I have danced this dance before. Maybe you too.
Lost my moniker in the transfer and it since linked to my PSN gamer tag. 'Iron and Copper' they used to call me. Anyway to get that back? I miss it.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Apr 2015, 13:12
The voiceacting was really, really bad, with occasional half decent bits and occasional slides into "so bad it's good" territory. In the terrorist leader convo they both sound ike cdr. Shepard from the original Mass Effect, only if he was zonked on prozac and also a robot. The conversations were okay, but really nothing more groundbreaking than some of the conversational duels in Human Revolution.

The conversation "duels" and the social aug were an interesting feature, one of the few truly innovative and groundbreaking aspects of DXHR's design. And the voice acting in DXHR is uniformly better than DX1 (even though, in my opinion, Jensen's constant Clint Eastwood growling gets stale in a hurry).

I'm not talking about voice acting, though. I'm talking about content. If you honestly think there is even a single moment in the entirety of DXHR that outshines the Morpheus conversation, or the Leo Gold discussion, or the interrogation of the NSF prisoners in terms of intellectual content....then I'm just going to have to walk away and do something else, because I can't help you.

IvanaKC
9th Apr 2015, 18:43
And the voice acting in DXHR is uniformly better than DX1 (even though, in my opinion, Jensen's constant Clint Eastwood growling gets stale in a hurry).


It's kinda sad that everyone except Jensen had life in their voices. Elias' voice is great for Jensen, but it shouldn't be like a straight line the whole time (it's like the crew was unfamiliar with the meaning of intonation).



bro i hope that mccann will stop making boring music and will focus on dubstep instead this is the best combat track and it will suit action perfectly why mccann doesnt use it is beyond me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86khmc6y1yE

Sorry, but Skrillex music is generic. I get to hear the beat in every popular piece nowadays. HR or Splinter Cell music, on the other hand, I'm listening till this day with passion.

But how come you think HR had boring music? IMO it has a nice epic tune that suggest about the end of the world. Not to mention how the intro credit soundtrack can actually get you interested in the game (talking from personal experience).

CyberP
9th Apr 2015, 20:59
Who's that now @CyberP? OP or myself?.

You. I was going to acknowledge OP's post but he started going on about augmented sexual organs that fire rockets and such.

You can get your old profile back if you simply scroll up.

68_pie
9th Apr 2015, 21:43
The conversation "duels" and the social aug were an interesting feature, one of the few truly innovative and groundbreaking aspects of DXHR's design.

It's depressing how impressed so many people are with the conversations in DXHR. Just look at the conversations in any Obsidian game (or any RPG in general) and you'll find far superior "duels" that require you to understand and read your "opponent" in order to be successful.

Alpha Protocol in particular.


And the voice acting in DXHR is uniformly better than DX1 (even though, in my opinion, Jensen's constant Clint Eastwood growling gets stale in a hurry).

Well, it wasn't that hard.


I'm not talking about voice acting, though. I'm talking about content. If you honestly think there is even a single moment in the entirety of DXHR that outshines the Morpheus conversation, or the Leo Gold discussion, or the interrogation of the NSF prisoners in terms of intellectual content....then I'm just going to have to walk away and do something else, because I can't help you.

This.

Avenging_Teabag
10th Apr 2015, 06:10
It's depressing how impressed so many people are with the conversations in DXHR. Just look at the conversations in any Obsidian game (or any RPG in general) and you'll find far superior "duels" that require you to understand and read your "opponent" in order to be successful.
Never played alpha protocol and not a fan of RPGs in general. it doesn't matter anyway because Deus Ex is not an RPG and never has been.

CHERNO-B1LL
10th Apr 2015, 09:08
You can get your old profile back if you simply scroll up.

Cheers. It's actually embarrassing how excited I get when I find people who know and love the original the way I do. Even Teabag who disagree's with me on everything seems to be a reasonable enough sort. I need a life.

Anyway 'scroll up'? What's this now? Scroll up where?

Specom
10th Apr 2015, 09:31
Anyway 'scroll up'? What's this now? Scroll up where?

Information For Eidos Forums Members


Up there, written in red colour


because Deus Ex is not an RPG and never has been.

Then, what is it?

Avenging_Teabag
10th Apr 2015, 10:51
Sandbox action/adventure?

68_pie
10th Apr 2015, 14:21
Never played alpha protocol and not a fan of RPGs in general. it doesn't matter anyway because Deus Ex is not an RPG and never has been.

The original Deus Ex was an immersive sim.

I asked JFD what genre DXHR was and he said "action-RPG".

Avenging_Teabag
10th Apr 2015, 16:07
I asked JFD Who?

what genre DXHR was and he said "action-RPG".Eh. It's an rpg to the same extent Far Cry 3&4 are, i.e., not very. It has some rpg ruffles, but what doesn't nowadays?

FrankCSIS
10th Apr 2015, 16:54
I wouldn't call HR an RPG, not because it lacked many features associated to tabletop, but mostly because it wasn't balanced to be one. Level designs, although more interesting than standard modern FPS, were not built for a customized RPG experience in the traditional sense.

Although not exclusively a size issue, the problem of small levels is the alternate path, or pillar, is always one step around the corner. I'm so used to exploring that by the time I tried to access "pillar B", I had already come across pillar A, C and D, rendering any kind of RPG element completely useless.

I like that they went out of their way to add more paths, but I maintain the "pillar" approach was a misunderstanding of DX's custom experience. In its own way, Far Cry 3 compounds gave more space for emergent gameplay, even by offering strictly a violent approach.

WildcatPhoenix
10th Apr 2015, 17:06
Who?


Jean-Francois Dugas. Executive Director at EM.

CyberP
10th Apr 2015, 17:28
Yeah HR was definitely a Stealth/Action RPG-lite. And indeed DX1 was an Stealth/Action RPG Immersive Sim.

xaduha3
10th Apr 2015, 18:25
it doesn't matter anyway because Deus Ex is not an RPG and never has been.



I must be getting old, but these "someone is wrong on the internet" moments more often than not are seen as unimportant. Why should I bother correcting you, proving something to you? "I'm not a fan of RPGs" might as well mean "I'm not a fan of interesting games", at least to me. So be on your way, but do know that I disagree as well.

AdrianShephard
13th Apr 2015, 20:50
https://youtu.be/FoTeWB7JWIs (Simons and the NSF prisoners)

This is the best conversation in the game (specifically JC's).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_CUM6ocLTI#t=18m

I also like Paul's smart dialogue.

Irate_Iguana
14th Apr 2015, 09:17
This is the best conversation in the game (specifically JC's).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_CUM6ocLTI#t=18m

I also like Paul's smart dialogue.

I missed those conversations. It just seemed like there was a metric ****ton of voiced dialog. Nowadays you'd be grateful if they gave two different AI barks when you talk to them.

Avenging_Teabag
16th Apr 2015, 09:51
I must be getting old, but these "someone is wrong on the internet" moments more often than not are seen as unimportant. Why should I bother correcting you, proving something to you? "I'm not a fan of RPGs" might as well mean "I'm not a fan of interesting games", at least to me. So be on your way, but do know that I disagree as well.Please tell me more how the only interesting games are the games you like. Jesus Christ.

xaduha3
16th Apr 2015, 15:10
No. And that's not what was said anyway.

RedIntifada
23rd Apr 2015, 06:37
The conversation "duels" and the social aug were an interesting feature, one of the few truly innovative and groundbreaking aspects of DXHR's design. And the voice acting in DXHR is uniformly better than DX1 (even though, in my opinion, Jensen's constant Clint Eastwood growling gets stale in a hurry).


I actually really disliked them. I wanted to roleplay my character not have only one right answer for dialogue. I preferred not having one right option but seeing how dialogue choices played out down the track... like the difference between getting Jamie to flee and having him stick around as a mole on the inside. Conversations which are pass/fail are boring and I tend to just go back to a previous save straight away if I fail and then it becomes all about remembering combinations rather than being part of a story.

DX1musicROCKS
23rd Apr 2015, 12:35
I actually really disliked them. I wanted to roleplay my character not have only one right answer for dialogue. I preferred not having one right option but seeing how dialogue choices played out down the track... like the difference between getting Jamie to flee and having him stick around as a mole on the inside. Conversations which are pass/fail are boring and I tend to just go back to a previous save straight away if I fail and then it becomes all about remembering combinations rather than being part of a story.

I'm with you on this one. If there is a "duel" - there shouldn't be just one path to victory. Each path should lead to different outcomes, some of which should be revealed later in the game.

Irate_Iguana
23rd Apr 2015, 13:31
I actually really disliked them. I wanted to roleplay my character not have only one right answer for dialogue. I preferred not having one right option but seeing how dialogue choices played out down the track... like the difference between getting Jamie to flee and having him stick around as a mole on the inside. Conversations which are pass/fail are boring and I tend to just go back to a previous save straight away if I fail and then it becomes all about remembering combinations rather than being part of a story.

Do you think that is an inherent problem of the dialog battles or because of a lack of C&C in the game? I quite liked the idea of the social battles. Arguing and playing with people in order to get them to do what you want. Using the powers of your voice to get a desired outcome instead of more physical means. The problem I saw was that there simply was no option available to Adam to do something with his power. There is no choice.

You're always put in a position where you can only argue for a single option. Sometimes this makes sense, but other times it feels like a wasted opportunity. The best example of this is the very first conversation battle you have. When meeting Zeke Sanders you can only argue for him to let Josie Thorpe go. You can't try to get him to investigate who set him up and give you the info. You can't get him to turn himself in for the good of his men. I fully believe they can do more with this.

xaduha3
23rd Apr 2015, 13:33
I distinctly remember there were at least two ways to win an argument in a conversation with Wayne Haas. Maybe it only works if you don't have CASIE.


Conversations which are pass/fail are boring and I tend to just go back to a previous save straight away if I fail and then it becomes all about remembering combinations rather than being part of a story.

Or you could man up, accept that you failed and try another approach.

JCpies
26th Apr 2015, 11:59
Or you could man up, accept that you failed and try another approach.

Yeah, I find the best way to play on your first run of the game is to do it "natural" and just see what happens. It's much more fun/demanding when you have to make spontaneous decisions.

besyuziki
27th Apr 2015, 16:17
Maybe they could implement a difficulty level, or a difficulty parameter which forces the player to play with one save and autosave at every interval (sort of like Dark Souls, and the trial of iron mode in Pillars of Eternity), to live with all of your bad decisions as well as "lost" social boss fights.

I'm not holding my breath, though, as JF said the game was "too hard" on normal. :mad2:

http://truepcgaming.com/2013/04/11/deus-ex-human-revolution-retrospect-interview/


In retrospect, I think our game is a tad too hard on normal difficulty. (...) If I could go back, I’d tone it down a bit, all over the place (AI, more consumables all in all, redesigned bosses, etc.).

Dvaythavvar
27th Apr 2015, 19:33
I actually really disliked them. I wanted to roleplay my character not have only one right answer for dialogue. I preferred not having one right option but seeing how dialogue choices played out down the track... like the difference between getting Jamie to flee and having him stick around as a mole on the inside. Conversations which are pass/fail are boring and I tend to just go back to a previous save straight away if I fail and then it becomes all about remembering combinations rather than being part of a story.

Well if you really roleplay, you accept the challenge of having 'wrong answer' like in real life. So what if NPC is not ending to be your best buddy ? Even failures add to it. Haas in example had different outcomes. You get into the station and get him new job later, or you don't get in, or get in with pissing him off and have to knock him out later because of blackmailing. I never knew of those possibilities and found them all out on dif. gameplays. Because I was indeed was in a role and even if I knew there's way in differently, I just sought different ways to deal with "bad rng" - its what replays are for - to discover new things. Sometimes you win a chat battle, next time you dont have chat aug, and get whole different dialogue and so on.

However i agree with the posts that say those battles could have been more complex in some cases.

3dot14hole
3rd May 2015, 14:39
bro i hope that mccann will stop making boring music and will focus on dubstep instead this is the best combat track and it will suit action perfectly why mccann doesnt use it is beyond me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86khmc6y1yE

You must be a stand up. Cause that's a good joke.

KenTWOu
10th May 2015, 07:06
There was a lot more life in other characters too. Warrren Spectre said he actually told JC's VO to tone down emotion, less variation in tone. Less drama. It was a brave artistic choice...
They did it because the character should be neutral to accommodate to all possible play styles. Can't see anything really brave or artistic here. It's more like cheating because of the way recorded game conversations work instead of a bold artistic choice. It's more like a necessity. Besides Eidos Montreal did almost the same thing with Adam Jensen. That's why we have reactions like this one (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=154598&p=2118776#post2118776): It's kinda sad that everyone except Jensen had life in their voices...



You could literally walk past that Morpheaus discussion and you could walk away at any point if you didn't keep talking to it. It went deeper and deeper down that rabbit hole. Same for Leo Gold, you could just blow him away and you would never know there was another way. It really rewarded people who wanted to try something different and think about their actions. You learned stuff, all of the dialogue in those links is legit; the science, the politics, the philosphy. Where was that in Human revolution. I don't think I learned anything new in that game.
Because you're getting older. If I'll find those DX conversations right now I won't find anything new either. But when I played the game for the first time everything sounded thought provoking. On the other hand, I knew nothing about transhumanism and augmentations. DXHR gave me food for thought. I don't care if someone think that there wasn't anything new for him, it was relatively new and fresh for me and forced me to find more stuff regarding these topics.

And that's my personal opinion, but I would like to play the game focused on one narrow theme instead of playing the game which tries to say too much. Because the latter has a high chance to misfire. And sometimes the first Deus Ex did exactly that (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Gray).


It's depressing how impressed so many people are with the conversations in DXHR. Just look at the conversations in any Obsidian game (or any RPG in general) and you'll find far superior "duels" that require you to understand and read your "opponent" in order to be successful.

Alpha Protocol in particular.
I think recent Warren Spector's comment fits perfectly here: NOW WE'VE ADDED TIMERS! Woohoo! (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/34fdjb/hi_i_am_warren_spector_a_game_developer_from/cqu68vx)

I mean there wasn't anything really interesting in the way Alpha Protocol deals with conversations. More over, they ruined them the same way recent BioWare games did. You can't see the whole answer, that's why sometimes your character says something you didn't want him to say. Meanwhile DXHR at least tried something new. That's why people were pleasantly surprised and easily impressed.

68_pie
10th May 2015, 18:37
I think recent Warren Spector's comment fits perfectly here: NOW WE'VE ADDED TIMERS! Woohoo! (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/34fdjb/hi_i_am_warren_spector_a_game_developer_from/cqu68vx)

I mean there wasn't anything really interesting in the way Alpha Protocol deals with conversations. More over, they ruined them the same way recent BioWare games did. You can't see the whole answer, that's why sometimes your character says something you didn't want him to say. Meanwhile DXHR at least tried something new. That's why people were pleasantly surprised and easily impressed.

But what was new?

I think perhaps you are misunderstanding what I like about AP's conversations and why I'm comparing them to DXHR.

People talk about how you had to read your opponent in the (relatively few) conversation battles in DXHR.

In AP you did this in every conversation. You also had to study people's dossiers to understand their motivations and how to please them or piss them off. AP's conversations led to many short and long term consequences.

I was okay with the timers because I felt it made sense for the style and narrative of the game.

I would have liked to be able to see the full answer but it bothered me less than in ME.

Irate_Iguana
11th May 2015, 18:43
In AP you did this in every conversation. You also had to study people's dossiers to understand their motivations and how to please them or piss them off. AP's conversations led to many short and long term consequences.

With Marburg in Rome for example.



I would have liked to be able to see the full answer but it bothered me less than in ME.

AP had far fewer nonsensical descriptions. ME had quite a few where the blurb wasn't even in the ballpark of the actual spoken line. That helped for me.

vallux
12th May 2015, 11:26
With Marburg in Rome for example.

I don't think I had a playthrough where I didn't piss off Marburg. Every time.

xaduha3
12th May 2015, 15:54
I think I played AP twice, Marburg didn't ring any bells though, had to look him up.

If I'm not completely out of my mind - on one playthrough there was no SIE.

KenTWOu
17th May 2015, 06:58
But what was new?
Actual game mechanics behind them.


In AP you did this in every conversation.
I disagree. in some of them, but not in all of them.

Salfurium
16th Jun 2015, 22:58
I want the Burger/Debug Menu to be available again. Hopefully without having to mod the game and instead just putting a command line argument in to get it. While I don't want to cheat all the way I really enjoy playing god at times.

zwanzig_zwoelf
17th Jun 2015, 12:51
I hope Eliza Cassan will return or at least someone who'll be voiced by this woman. Her voice is perfect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF2o5RDkq9A

Cyberhuman
17th Jun 2015, 18:33
This is what I want:

When I screw up on my stealthy approach, I want the AI to start searching for me aggressively, and even if they can't find me, the AI in that particular area should have a permanent alerted status, until I have actually left that area. I don't want to go knock a guy out while someone sees me, and then having the AI stop searching for me after 60 seconds.

I'm in a high security area, please hunt me down and kill me!

Salfurium
17th Jun 2015, 18:46
When I screw up on my stealthy approach, I want the AI to start searching for me aggressively
Sounds like what a "Give Me Deus Ex" difficulty should be. Wouldn't be too much fun in playthroughs on lower difficulties though.

FrankCSIS
18th Jun 2015, 00:29
Isn't it The Dark Mod that allows you to tweak all of this, like states of alert, or how well they hear and see? A "Custom" difficulty setting, especially for something as important as enemy AI, should most certainly be available in any modern game. But at the very least, the hard or hardcore modes should tweak those accordingly.

I understand the challenge of tweaking the Nomal setting. But when you pick hard, on a game with a heavy stealth mechanic, than by Georges it ought to mean that sneaking is hard, and that the penalties are harsh. If you don't have a custom system like The Dark Mod, then tweak your harder modes accordingly. If you're afftaid to vex the player, why even have difficulty settings? (Although I honestly wonder why we still have those archaic settings in the first place, when there are so many ways to deal with difficulty in the first place).

Cyberhuman
21st Jun 2015, 21:10
If you're afraid to vex the player, why even have difficulty settings? (Although I honestly wonder why we still have those archaic settings in the first place, when there are so many ways to deal with difficulty in the first place).

Yes, it seems like this trend of catering to casual players who can't take a challenge will only continue. Why couldn't the hardest mode tweak these values? The AI on hard mode should behave more realistically. I'm so tired of changing the difficulty setting in games, and then find out that the only thing that really changed, is the fact that you now take more damage from enemy attacks, while the enemies take less damage from your attacks.

This should be outdated by now, so what gives?