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FrankCSIS
9th Apr 2015, 00:12
That trailer.

It's inconceivably violent. I mean ****. The only thing missing is a gang rape, really. Did Wes Craven direct this?

I know it's just a hype trailer, but the apple fell pretty far from the tree. Thinking of Paul, now. "This isn't a training exercise, JC. Your targets will be human beings. Keep that in mind".

CyberP
9th Apr 2015, 02:56
Although my hope of this game being universally progressive (especially compared to DX1) is next to none, I think you may be blowing the relevance of the trailer a little out of proportion. Eidos Montreal's marketing team created it (or it was outsourced over to a Japanese animation studio like DX:HR was). These people are trained to be sheep-herders, not game designers and masters of the pen. Besides, the trailers of such classics as DX1 and System Shock 2 were too in this shallow standard of marketing.

But hey, it is beside the point, I know; they are meant to be representing the game...and more devolution is nigh anyway. #CantStopProgressOfBusinessGrowth

You'll probably see crafty & more representative marketing later on anyway such as the ARG's HR had, and the Sarif Industries website.

Stellazira
9th Apr 2015, 03:12
I felt the Human Revolution trailer was a little violent, but this one really went to town. The violence feels like it's too much for the universe and doesn't really fit. People can play the game how they want but that trailer really was overkill.

FrankCSIS
9th Apr 2015, 03:17
Man it's really annoying to have two boards to go over the same topics. Once again, I'll just be repeating myself over here!

The reason it worries me is how, once again, the coolness factor is overtaking what little story impact there is in the actual narrative. The trailer of HR greatly represented how flash the game turned out to be, with its third person takedowns and badass Batman-like action scenes.

This new trailer tells two stories, clearly setting up the themes of the game. One's about a heavily discriminated teen who falls for a charismatic leader and becomes a terrorist (I detest this discourse, but that's for another time and place), and the other is about Adam and his personal redemption quest. Nothing he says in that trailer, though, matches what he does. I have this mental image now of Adam crying about "so much violence" while brutally murdering someone, and it's amazingly ridiculous.

And so, much like HR, I fear everything they will try to say through the story is inevitably going to be silenced by the very nature of the game and its artistic choices. Even if this trailer is outsourced, I'm baffled no one actually realised this before shipping it out.

CyberP
9th Apr 2015, 03:21
The violence feels like it's too much for the universe and doesn't really fit.

These nonsensical opinions needs to cease being expressed (I've faced them a number of times by adding additional gore to DX1). The Deus Ex games can be extremely violent if you will them to be.
You can feed a little orphan to the Karkians...eaten alive (but unconscious). You can do that. Bum Massacre simulator. Theft + breaking & entering. Carrying out assassinations for gang leaders. Additionally, as a simulation of a fictional take on our future in dystopia, with real world rules, there's gonna be blood. There's gonna be death. Prostitution. Assassination. It is realistic to expect that from a Deus Ex game, only difference to other games is you don't have to do it.
Too many players think their preferred (and often only) playstyle is the absolute definition of Deus Ex.

Edit: you edited to add recognition of playstyle choice, thus making this post pointless.

CyberP
9th Apr 2015, 03:34
And so, much like HR, I fear everything they will try to say through the story is inevitably going to be silenced by the very nature of the game and its artistic choices. Even if this trailer is outsourced, I'm baffled no one actually realized this before shipping it out.

Like I said, they are trained sheep herders. That is their ultimate goal, and it is working. The sheep are conditioned to follow this style of marketing and not expect more. Dystopia of the entertainment industries.

I know you know the intended role of a marketer (to sell the product using the most optimal means), you just expect more I guess and that is understandable.

Personally, I find I could do with learning how the puppet master marketers operate, because I offer the (free) goods upfront and detail all the evolution in whole, and few give a crap.

FrankCSIS
9th Apr 2015, 03:51
Socially speaking, I'm curious about the outcome of this trailer, and who it's actually marketed for. It's the first time in a long time I see a serious ultra-violent trailer addressing a relatively mainstream audience. It intrigues me a bit.

Far Cry 3 and 4 obviously lampoon game violence, while GTA 5 is cartoonish and heavy on dark humor. Moments of ultraviolence in films are usually spoofs now, such as Kingsmen. Violence porn typically does badly, and the bloody action films have devolved back to a genre, leaving room for more family-friendly blockbusters.

So again I wonder, since we've moved to marketing talk, where this trailer comes into play.

Stellazira
9th Apr 2015, 04:25
These nonsensical opinions needs to cease being expressed (I've faced them a number of times by adding additional gore to DX1).

That's your opinion. I have every right to express mine, just as you can express yours. I'm not picking on someone and telling them what they say isn't worth saying or breaking other forum rules, so if you really don't like what I have to say, just ignore it.


Edit: you edited to add recognition of playstyle choice, thus making this post pointless.

I never edited that post as it does not have any "Last edited by [author]" tag at the bottom of it. Don't accuse people of things they quite clearly didn't do.

CyberP
9th Apr 2015, 04:43
Socially speaking, I'm curious about the outcome of this trailer, and who it's actually marketed for. It's the first time in a long time I see a serious ultra-violent trailer addressing a relatively mainstream audience. It intrigues me a bit.

Far Cry 3 and 4 obviously lampoon game violence, while GTA 5 is cartoonish and heavy on dark humor. Moments of ultraviolence in films are usually spoofs now, such as Kingsmen. Violence porn typically does badly, and the bloody action films have devolved back to a genre, leaving room for more family-friendly blockbusters.

So again I wonder, since we've moved to marketing talk, where this trailer comes into play.

Didn't you see the Hitman trailer that focused entirely on shooting? The action scenes in Thief's marketing? What about Tomb Raider's brutal beating of Lara Croft? DX:MD's trailer isn't really much different, and not terribly violent anyway. I'm not seeing extreme violence, it is relatively mild. Little blood, no instances of severance of body parts, no realistic screams of terror as the pain kicks in. Stuff that would perhaps pass as suitable for children considering ultra-violent movies like Kickass are deemed suitable for 12 y/o children. Different industries, yes, but whatever. It is all universal devolution.

@StellaRiza: I may have made a mistake, apologies if so. I'm not a machine. :)

Spyhopping
9th Apr 2015, 06:02
When I was watching it I kept thinking "stop bloody killing people!" so yeah, not so keen on those bits. There are great sneaky/hacky (with his fist!)/wandering around bits though, so that kept me happy.

Avenging_Teabag
9th Apr 2015, 08:23
So much pain... so many innocent lives... lamented he while murdering his way across half the globe.

Much sadness. Such feels.

It's funny when you think about but to be honest, I don't care. The DEHR trailer was very violent as well, this one is awesome, I already watched it entirely too many times. Trailers not being exactly representative of games they promote is not a new thing.

IvanaKC
9th Apr 2015, 17:56
So much pain... so many innocent lives... lamented he while murdering his way across half the globe.


The irony stabbed me in the eye too. Though, I got over it as it seems to me that it's all just to show off augmentations.

Spyhopping
9th Apr 2015, 21:00
Maybe they REALLY deserved it. I played most of HR and DX non-lethal, but when the stakes got high and someone was trying very hard to kill me I'd kill them back.

sirtaff
10th Apr 2015, 10:16
The reason it worries me is how, once again, the coolness factor is overtaking what little story impact there is in the actual narrative. The trailer of HR greatly represented how flash the game turned out to be, with its third person takedowns and badass Batman-like action scenes.


HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Eidos story telling...

February 25, 2014 RIP

CyberP
10th Apr 2015, 17:20
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA Eidos story telling...

February 25, 2014 RIP

Don't blame the Human Revolution team for the Thief team's "mistakes". They are separate teams.
"Mistakes" is in quotes because they intentionally made a mediocre game, as is standard these days. They intentionally made design decisions; contextual jumping and such, knowing full well it was limiting to gameplay and immersion.

Kodaemon
10th Apr 2015, 21:20
I guess this is just SE trying to appeal to a wider audience, much as they do with emphasising how the violent route will be more fun this time. Honestly, I don't have a problem with this, as long as the stealth/social aspects remain intact in the actual game, which seems to be the case right now.

FrankCSIS
11th Apr 2015, 06:03
When I was watching it I kept thinking "stop bloody killing people!" so yeah, not so keen on those bits. There are great sneaky/hacky (with his fist!)/wandering around bits though, so that kept me happy.

Yeeeaaahhh I do kind of realise they showcase all the possibilities, and the violent path is a legitimate one as any. There's just something, how can I put it, overly aggressive about it, without any sense of grit to it. It's plastic violence, but not in a comical or ironic way. Of course I also tend to exaggerate a lot, and while I know I do it, often on purpose, many people probably don't realise I do.

One good thing about the trailer is it's bringing a lot of people back. S'up with you? ;)

Dvaythavvar
11th Apr 2015, 06:48
I believe that vent lurking hardly makes a much of a trailer. Violence in this case allows to demonstrate the capacity of augmentations rather than show that this game is meant to be violent. I did show this trailer to some folks with words "And then you can play it without killing anyone other than certain boss-mobs" and none of the disputed the fact after they had seen me play Hitman, DX3, thief, dishonored. It's just marketing and truth to be told if you open CNN you can understand that we all are grown and raised by violence in news and Hollywood trailers also contain a lot of action. Even, when only action in film might be that we see in trailer.

This is entertainment industry marketing. I personally, known carebear in real-life and kind of-pacifist gamer, didn't mind the trailer at one bit.

EternalAmbiguity
11th Apr 2015, 16:03
That trailer.

It's inconceivably violent. I mean ****. The only thing missing is a gang rape, really. Did Wes Craven direct this?

I know it's just a hype trailer, but the apple fell pretty far from the tree. Thinking of Paul, now. "This isn't a training exercise, JC. Your targets will be human beings. Keep that in mind".

This is out of line. You're being incredibly hostile making comments like these.

It was certainly violent. Overly violent. But it's the reveal trailer for a new game. That's par for the course. And it's Visual Works, whose bread and butter is fast, action-paced scenes.

That doesn't change your point. Your point is correct. But your bolded statement is disgusting and destroys your credibility.

68_pie
11th Apr 2015, 16:47
That's par for the course.

Why does it have to be though?

EternalAmbiguity
11th Apr 2015, 17:43
Why does it have to be though?

It doesn't "have" to be, but how many people would be attracted by Jensen crawling around in vents? Action is a very straightforward and simple way to generate interest.

dlux99
11th Apr 2015, 18:39
The trailer is awesome. AWESOME. But I guess some people are going to be upset if Jensen does something other than stealthing around while crawling through air ducts and hiding in cover. :scratch:

Anyway, the trailer showed everything that the Deus Ex universe has to offer, which is stealth gameplay as well as lethal and non-lethal takedowns resp. combat. I felt that the trailer depicted the gameplay in Deus Ex very well.


I felt the Human Revolution trailer was a little violent, but this one really went to town. The violence feels like it's too much for the universe and doesn't really fit. People can play the game how they want but that trailer really was overkill.


I know it's just a hype trailer, but the apple fell pretty far from the tree. Thinking of Paul, now. "This isn't a training exercise, JC. Your targets will be human beings. Keep that in mind".
Uh huh.

https://youtu.be/ekVI_UoEYRc

Not that I approve something like that (I don't), but that is Deus Ex for you. Combat and violence has always been an integral part of the gameplay in the series. You can kill everything or be a total pacifist, it is all up to you.

FrankCSIS
11th Apr 2015, 22:34
This is out of line. You're being incredibly hostile making comments like these.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The act of attempting financial success or public attention by showcasing gruesome and unnecessary violence is a branch of exploitative cinema. In the same genre, shocking rape scenes have often been used for the exact same promotional purpose. How you are so shocked by one and find the other perfectly normal is a bit strange, if you ask me.

Some of you seem to think I'm shocked by this or something. As a midnight screener and follower of the weirdest film festivals, I've probably seen the most disgusting piece of exploitative garbage ever filmed. People threw up a few seats from us while watching Cannibal Holocaust, and they had to call an ambulance when two girls fainted during Man Behind the Sun.

I'm just surprised. I did not expect them to walk down this cheap exploitation pathos. HR's trailers were most certainly not like this, and while Thief trailers sounded like Lexus commercials they didn't feature this specific brand of bleh, no matter how much faster paced they were.

BTW, people coming in saying you need this crap to sell, am I the only one who remembers this trailer is still regarded as one of the most talked about, shared and influential trailer of the last generation? This is a game where you pretty much kill every moving thing, often with a chainsaw to their face. Food for thought.

ccWrbGEFgI8

Let me leave you on a phrase from the late Roger Ebert on exploitation: "What Dickey has given us here is a fantasy about violence, not a realistic consideration of it... It's possible to consider civilized men in a confrontation without throwing in rapes and pure exploitative sensationalism".

CyberP
11th Apr 2015, 22:59
Let me leave you on a phrase from the late Roger Ebert on exploitation: "What Dickey has given us here is a fantasy about violence, not a realistic consideration of it... It's possible to consider civilized men in a confrontation without throwing in rapes and pure exploitative sensationalism".

Isn't there irony in quoting Ebert considering he considered video games an immature medium that will never constitute as art? Or perhaps that just gives more meaning to your point; that EM/SE aren't exactly even trying to prove him wrong with this trailer.

FrankCSIS
11th Apr 2015, 23:04
I read somewhere Ebert somewhat changed his stance on it a bit before his death, but, as you say, this right here would have certainly not swayed him to look at it from a different perspective, even if he was unnecessarily closed minded about games.

CyberP
11th Apr 2015, 23:08
Good to hear he had his perspective swayed. Maybe there is hope for the same with EM yet...maybe.

EternalAmbiguity
12th Apr 2015, 02:00
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The act of attempting financial success or public attention by showcasing gruesome and unnecessary violence is a branch of exploitative cinema. In the same genre, shocking rape scenes have often been used for the exact same promotional purpose. How you are so shocked by one and find the other perfectly normal is a bit strange, if you ask me.

Some of you seem to think I'm shocked by this or something. As a midnight screener and follower of the weirdest film festivals, I've probably seen the most disgusting piece of exploitative garbage ever filmed. People threw up a few seats from us while watching Cannibal Holocaust, and they had to call an ambulance when two girls fainted during Man Behind the Sun.

I'm just surprised. I did not expect them to walk down this cheap exploitation pathos. HR's trailers were most certainly not like this, and while Thief trailers sounded like Lexus commercials they didn't feature this specific brand of bleh, no matter how much faster paced they were.

BTW, people coming in saying you need this crap to sell, am I the only one who remembers this trailer is still regarded as one of the most talked about, shared and influential trailer of the last generation? This is a game where you pretty much kill every moving thing, often with a chainsaw to their face. Food for thought.

ccWrbGEFgI8

Let me leave you on a phrase from the late Roger Ebert on exploitation: "What Dickey has given us here is a fantasy about violence, not a realistic consideration of it... It's possible to consider civilized men in a confrontation without throwing in rapes and pure exploitative sensationalism".

I'm not shocked by your statement. I just find it disgusting.

And the implication in your second sentence is completely false. This isn't gruesome by any stretch of the imagination--there's no gore, and I only see blood very very briefly three times in the trailer. Whether the violence is unnecessary or not is entirely debatable--do you think those cops beating up on Ezio there were going to stand down when Jensen gave them a loud voice and stern look? Or do you think that the terrorists, the ones in service to the guy who shot a gun-typhoon at Jensen, were gonna stand down when he gave them a loud voice and a stern look?

And to expand on that, while in both situations Jensen is the initiator of conflict, in both situations he is also the, by most commonly-held standards today, morally justified party. America has had multiple protests about police cruelty in the last few months. And America, along with the rest of the world, has faced serious issues related to terrorism.

Comparing that to gang rape, a crime perpetrated not with a sense of justice or security (as Jensen's two killing sprees are) but with a sense of power, of carnal lust, of a desire to shame, of a desire to hurt, is disgusting and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the ethics of an action.

I don't have any problem with calling it too violent. I do have a problem with conflating it with something that is literally its opposite.

nomotog
12th Apr 2015, 02:23
It doesn't "have" to be, but how many people would be attracted by Jensen crawling around in vents? Action is a very straightforward and simple way to generate interest.

Not always. Action is generic. You can't swing a augmented cat without hitting a game full of "cool" action violence. We are saturated with violent games, violent trailers, big loud booms. If you want to generate interest, you do it by being inserting. Not by being just like everything else.

I think the trailer should have focused on being something different. Focus on the elements that make deus ex unlike other games, orf at least pull out a strange bit of imagery like the HR trailer had.

EternalAmbiguity
12th Apr 2015, 02:39
Not always. Action is generic. You can't swing a augmented cat without hitting a game full of "cool" action violence. We are saturated with violent games, violent trailers, big loud booms. If you want to generate interest, you do it by being inserting. Not by being just like everything else.

I think the trailer should have focused on being something different. Focus on the elements that make deus ex unlike other games, orf at least pull out a strange bit of imagery like the HR trailer had.

Fair point, though I'm not sure what you mean by "inserting." Interesting maybe?

What this trailer DID do was show us a bunch of the augmentations. it wasn't just generic action. We saw Jensen shooting an arm blade. We saw him use a suit-mounted PEPS (and it looked like there was a suit-mounted smg or something, though unlikely). We saw some kind of electrical explosion (though that may have been PEPS again) We saw his armor ability or whatever that was at the end.

So it wasn't just generic. Plus, there was a small amount of imagery, not near as much as the HR trailer, but he did have the Icarus wings at the end.

NUMBER8ISGREAT
12th Apr 2015, 03:41
I'm not shocked by your statement. I just find it disgusting.

And the implication in your second sentence is completely false. This isn't gruesome by any stretch of the imagination--there's no gore, and I only see blood very very briefly three times in the trailer. Whether the violence is unnecessary or not is entirely debatable--do you think those cops beating up on Ezio there were going to stand down when Jensen gave them a loud voice and stern look? Or do you think that the terrorists, the ones in service to the guy who shot a gun-typhoon at Jensen, were gonna stand down when he gave them a loud voice and a stern look?

And to expand on that, while in both situations Jensen is the initiator of conflict, in both situations he is also the, by most commonly-held standards today, morally justified party. America has had multiple protests about police cruelty in the last few months. And America, along with the rest of the world, has faced serious issues related to terrorism.

Comparing that to gang rape, a crime perpetrated not with a sense of justice or security (as Jensen's two killing sprees are) but with a sense of power, of carnal lust, of a desire to shame, of a desire to hurt, is disgusting and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the ethics of an action.

I don't have any problem with calling it too violent. I do have a problem with conflating it with something that is literally its opposite.

+1

FrankCSIS
12th Apr 2015, 06:10
Why are we even discussing whether or not Jensen's actions are justifiable in the trailer? That'll be up to the player to decide, once he plays it. I'm going on about the nature of the trailer, and what they chose to showcase for pure hype purposes. Exploitation is what it is, period. There are about 15 sub genres of exploitation, all more cheap and out of place than the others, when it comes to promotional tactics. It does not matter in the slightest which ones you personally deem acceptable, and which ones are going too far for you.

I picked revenge-rape exploitation as an extreme example, but it's not like I made the genre up. It's a very real thing, created specifically to generate hype. I'm not saying this particular team would make use of it, of course. But the promotional logic is the same, and this glorification of a few brutal murders, no matter how "justified", is equally disgusting, regardless of how numb we have become to it. People's response to the trailer in this very thread, considering promotional violence as a necessary thing, or flat out calling it awesome, is specifically why I need to bring up the next exploitation tactic in line in the scale of unacceptability to get the point across. It strikes your chord as crossing the line, which is specifically what it would have done for most people, had it appeared either in the trailer or in the game. Your very reaction confirms my point.

This game, no matter what we end up thinking of it, deserves much better in terms of promotional material. The years of work they've put into this needs not be reduced by this kind of bull. The game can feature as much violence as it wants. A serious project, which aims to depict a plausible reality and address real issues like terrorism and endemic discrimination, does not need to use said violence as a promotional selling point to its potential teenage audience.

Dvaythavvar
12th Apr 2015, 06:52
I think the trailer should have focused on being something different. Focus on the elements that make deus ex unlike other games, orf at least pull out a strange bit of imagery like the HR trailer had.
But likely for "outsider" [outsider: someone never played any DX game] it is like any other game. And to be honest "not like any other game" is actually something most developers like to say/show and I am not sure if it is a good tag line nowadays: "experience the world like never before- this is not like any other game". I've heard this 100 times before. Does it even work on game marketing anymore ? We come harder and harder to impress. Due to technology we possess and quality of entertainment around us.

NUMBER8ISGREAT
12th Apr 2015, 23:35
Why are we even discussing whether or not Jensen's actions are justifiable in the trailer? That'll be up to the player to decide, once he plays it. I'm going on about the nature of the trailer, and what they chose to showcase for pure hype purposes. Exploitation is what it is, period. There are about 15 sub genres of exploitation, all more cheap and out of place than the others, when it comes to promotional tactics. It does not matter in the slightest which ones you personally deem acceptable, and which ones are going too far for you.

I picked revenge-rape exploitation as an extreme example, but it's not like I made the genre up. It's a very real thing, created specifically to generate hype. I'm not saying this particular team would make use of it, of course. But the promotional logic is the same, and this glorification of a few brutal murders, no matter how "justified", is equally disgusting, regardless of how numb we have become to it. People's response to the trailer in this very thread, considering promotional violence as a necessary thing, or flat out calling it awesome, is specifically why I need to bring up the next exploitation tactic in line in the scale of unacceptability to get the point across. It strikes your chord as crossing the line, which is specifically what it would have done for most people, had it appeared either in the trailer or in the game. Your very reaction confirms my point.

This game, no matter what we end up thinking of it, deserves much better in terms of promotional material. The years of work they've put into this needs not be reduced by this kind of bull. The game can feature as much violence as it wants. A serious project, which aims to depict a plausible reality and address real issues like terrorism and endemic discrimination, does not need to use said violence as a promotional selling point to its potential teenage audience.

We're discussing if his actions are justifiable or not because you're implying that the trailer is over the top gratuitous violence. And if it's up to the player to decide, it's also up to the viewer of the trailer to form their own opinion and, at the very least, have an opinion with some merit. As for what they chose to showcase, I can't say if it was pure hype but how is this exploitation?

Concerning promotional violence, are they showing violence for violence sake or doing it to show you how brutal the world is, how Adam's actions didn't put a dent in the plans of TPTB, etc. So while you may look at what the trailer did say, i.e. what you're being shown, you're also failing to talk about what they didn't say/show and if that has an impact on anything.

As for "better" in terms of the promotional material, it's their project and if they want to release a trailer then it is what it is. The main point, however, is the execution of the trailer. BTW, in the trailer the main antagonist has a modified left arm. On the game cover he has a modified right arm...lol. As for using violence as a promotional selling point, if the shoe fits you wear it. The game is rated M so teens shouldn't be playing it anyone unless their parents purchased the game for them. Yes, real issues such as terrorism and discrimination are discussed so if they chose to do it their way, and have certain dialogue at key moments to enhance the story being told in the trailer, then it is what it is. Nothing to be alarmed about, concerned over, etc.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Apr 2015, 14:25
Man it's really annoying to have two boards to go over the same topics. Once again, I'll just be repeating myself over here!

Just post on the relevant board. :thumbsup:

AdrianShephard
13th Apr 2015, 19:30
I'm not shocked by your statement. I just find it disgusting.

And the implication in your second sentence is completely false. This isn't gruesome by any stretch of the imagination--there's no gore, and I only see blood very very briefly three times in the trailer. Whether the violence is unnecessary or not is entirely debatable--do you think those cops beating up on Ezio there were going to stand down when Jensen gave them a loud voice and stern look? Or do you think that the terrorists, the ones in service to the guy who shot a gun-typhoon at Jensen, were gonna stand down when he gave them a loud voice and a stern look?

And to expand on that, while in both situations Jensen is the initiator of conflict, in both situations he is also the, by most commonly-held standards today, morally justified party. America has had multiple protests about police cruelty in the last few months. And America, along with the rest of the world, has faced serious issues related to terrorism.

Comparing that to gang rape, a crime perpetrated not with a sense of justice or security (as Jensen's two killing sprees are) but with a sense of power, of carnal lust, of a desire to shame, of a desire to hurt, is disgusting and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the ethics of an action.

I don't have any problem with calling it too violent. I do have a problem with conflating it with something that is literally its opposite.

FYI, this is a gaming board, not Tumblr.

JCpies
14th Apr 2015, 20:07
FYI, this is a gaming board, not Tumblr.

:rolleyes:

Nice one.

EternalAmbiguity
18th Apr 2015, 03:24
Why are we even discussing whether or not Jensen's actions are justifiable in the trailer? That'll be up to the player to decide, once he plays it. I'm going on about the nature of the trailer, and what they chose to showcase for pure hype purposes. Exploitation is what it is, period. There are about 15 sub genres of exploitation, all more cheap and out of place than the others, when it comes to promotional tactics. It does not matter in the slightest which ones you personally deem acceptable, and which ones are going too far for you.

I picked revenge-rape exploitation as an extreme example, but it's not like I made the genre up. It's a very real thing, created specifically to generate hype. I'm not saying this particular team would make use of it, of course. But the promotional logic is the same, and this glorification of a few brutal murders, no matter how "justified", is equally disgusting, regardless of how numb we have become to it. People's response to the trailer in this very thread, considering promotional violence as a necessary thing, or flat out calling it awesome, is specifically why I need to bring up the next exploitation tactic in line in the scale of unacceptability to get the point across. It strikes your chord as crossing the line, which is specifically what it would have done for most people, had it appeared either in the trailer or in the game. Your very reaction confirms my point.

This game, no matter what we end up thinking of it, deserves much better in terms of promotional material. The years of work they've put into this needs not be reduced by this kind of bull. The game can feature as much violence as it wants. A serious project, which aims to depict a plausible reality and address real issues like terrorism and endemic discrimination, does not need to use said violence as a promotional selling point to its potential teenage audience.

I'm discussing whether they're justifiable because that has an impact on the intended message of the trailer, and the intended message has an impact on whether it's "exploitation" or not.

You're claiming the promotional logic is the same. it is simply not the same. One is used to shock. This trailer is not used to shock. It's used to show off augmentations and be "cool." Those are two entirely different things.

I don't watch many films, but a few years back I was into Sara Paxton for some reason and watched a trailer for "The Last House On The Left." THAT was used to "shock," and is nothing like the MD trailer.


FYI, this is a gaming board, not Tumblr.

I was going to point and laugh at your comment for implying the guy defending the over-violent trailer is from Tumblr, but I really don't understand what you mean by replying to that specific statement of mine--it's true. It is one of the most commonly held standards, but by the same token it isn't the only one.

Ex_Zero
21st Apr 2015, 22:48
I hope I'm not too late to add my 2 cents on the trailer of a $60 game. I'd also like to preface my comment by saying I think it's one of the most important points the writers/creators of the Deus Ex series were trying to get across to us most poignantly stated in DX:HR when Adam Jensen says to Zhou Yun Ru (I believe, I tried to find it in the YouTube video of all the cut scenes) "augmented humans like me capable of opposing you." He was telling us that when individuals finally have the power to help others directly that the governmental organizations no longer have the monopoly on the use of applied violence for good. Generally if violence is to be used to help someone or save them from a bad situation it's going to be the cops who do it, SWAT if the problem is sufficient, or if things are bad enough (riot time) then the National Guard militias or in Civil War days the actual US Army ala Gangs of New York. The only legal exemptions tend to be heat of the moment stuff where a guy breaks into your house and you shoot him or you see a woman being raped in the alleyway and you beat the crap out of the guy. Augmentations on the scale of Adam and JC mean anyone can be in the moment and use violence to solve directly violent problems by out-classing or simply using more of it. With that in mind here's my reasoning that the trailer wasn't particularly bad or "inconceivably violent" (unlike the movie Hostel for example or Auschwitz, the Armenian Genocide the Turks pretend didn't happen or the Dresden firestorm, you get me?).

Let's all be clear here about the violence in DX- it's always your choice. There's that phrase "if violence isn't working for you, you're not using enough of it." JC and Adam always had that choice to ramp up their violence and choose who gets to die- OR NOT. For instance in the original game as soon as you enter Hell's Kitchen there's that side mission triggered by the girl being threatened by the pimp in the alley. Personally I hate people who use and abuse others and he died by my hand and so did the man he reported to. In DX:HR there was a similar situation in Hengsha where that girl was being kept prisoner in that storage facility right next to the sewer. I rescued her and waited for her captors to return and I gave them what they deserved- a bullet in the brain execution style after I knocked them all out. For what it's worth that's how I play the game- you get what you deserve. Adam may be shown in the trailers killing and seriously getting down and dirty with people but do they deserve it? When some PMC thugs come out at Adam what does he do? Does he say "oh, these are supposed to be the good guys, they're working for the gubberment and they're here to help!" Hell no, he says these people whether they know better or not, are here to hurt people, to take them from their cushy lives, and throw them into Missing Link-style holding facilities! These people had to know what they were getting themselves into, just like in real life the "victims" of police brutality had to know what would happen if they assaulted a police officer or resisted arrest. The only difference is that Adam knows who he's dealing with and if he resists arrest he's doing so for a good reason like save the world or this cop is a dirty cop and he needs to be taken out of the game. Adam's "2 killing sprees" result in precisely this- he killed some sort of police/PMC/govt affiliated thugs who were doing a bit more than just arresting, they were persecuting the mechs with extreme prejudice. They met someone capable of resisting them and they got treated exactly the same way as they treated those they were supposed to subdue and take into custody for whatever reason. The other was (probably) a group of terrorist mechs who were going to take resistance up to the next level and (probably) kill anyone whom they perceive to be threats to their kind. It reminds me of the animated DC comic film Superman vs The Elite where the vigilante group known as The Elite killed all the leaders on both sides of a conflict between 2 countries "So congratulations, your leaders are all dead, peace reigns supreme!" Adam took care of everyone now more peaceful people can hopefully have a chance to fix things and make it right.

Some people will no doubt tell me I'm way out of line, that you can't just go around killing everyone because they offend your personal sense of justice. I understand that line of thinking and I agree to a point for the sake of collective civility but to me, personally, it's like that quote John F Kennedy used to use that he took from earlier men "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I see myself and my actions that I take through JC and Adam to be the correct way to do things, the way I would live my life today if I had augmented abilities. I think everyone should be able to do the same things too- if you see evil happening STOP IT. For instance, I think the current situation with ISIS in the Middle East is disgusting. Same thing with Boko Harram that just joined their aegis. Militant Islamist terrorists are running rampant over territory that is nominally supposed to be controlled by a legitimate government. Sure there are some forces countering them but the world let this go on and thousands of innocent men women and children were viciously tortured, enslaved, and murdered all because the victims didn't believe in the correct version of the terrorists' religion. Even other Muslims died because they weren't Sunni or Shia in the right time and place. If there were enough good people in the world who had the abilities to do so, they could have gone there, killed every last one of the terrorists who want to die for their version of God anyway, and saved innocent people. To me it is exactly the same thing as when we will take our actions as Adam in the next game. We have our missions but we will still be individuals acting towards our own goals. If we want to be straight up corporate killers for Sarif then that's your choice. If you want to go off and go all Batman on the criminal element in our midst then that too is our choice but all in all violence has a tendency to work in these games and sometimes in real life. Of course, if we can use technology to capture evidence of these people doing bad things and then release that evidence to someone like Eliza Cassan who passes it to the public and their political superiors who nominally report to the people who elected them or their constituents decide to get rid of and punish them for what they've done then we can take that route too if we so choose. The one thing I don't like is when we sit here on these boards and criticize the modus operandi of Adam Jensen in a game when the US, the PRC, Russia, and other organizations like NATO, ISIS, and rogue nations such as Iran and North Korea are out there marching people around doing exactly what we saw in the trailer all on the basis of defending the people who elected them, saving the world from Islam/Christianity/Communism/Democracy/Fascism/Capitalism, and no matter how many millions of people have been killed in the last century (we're approaching the centennial of World War I mind us all) we don't stop the killing, the torture, the persecution, and all of it justified by both sides with even the winners and losers still rewriting and revising history. Even the survivors of the Holocaust are being told they never went through the camps and still people are calling for history to repeat itself. At least in the game we have the ability to make things right- save the persecuted class from the powers that be or vice versa- using a measure of violence- all from our particular moral points of view.

Sorry for being a bit long winded but I thought that my statement conveniently covered almost all the violence seen in the trailers and the violence we are capable of committing in game juxtaposed against the violence we humans are capable of in the real world. I can't stand the media telling us what is too violent when the media itself creates violent media, almost all of which is somewhat inspired or based on the real horrors of the real world we live in.

Pinky_Powers
22nd Apr 2015, 13:20
I respect that some have no stomach for violence and a Deus Ex game is their haven for that reason; they don't have to use violence to get through the game. So any trailer for such a game ought to represent that path as much as any other. I'm talking hard, mathematical ratios. Every time Adam kills a guy, we should see him sneaking past another, or non-lethally incapacitating him. Instead we see him killing like it's going out of style. He comes off as feverish with an all-encompassing need to kill.

I didn't get that from any of the Human Revolution videos. Well, maybe at the end of that one where he breaks through that wall for no other reason than to snap a man's neck. Why did he do that? There was nothing on the other side of that wall he wanted. Just murder. Then he walks away, cloaking. Probably so he can masturbate without anyone seeing.

Frank has a point, or part of a point. Though he is lost in his own hyperbole. "Inconceivably violent"? Let's forget, momentarily, nothing can be inconceivable if it's been conceived and put into a trailer. But even as a paradoxical phrase, it's grossly misused here. The reason being, Adam's acts of violence, however numerous, are quick, efficient, and dispassionate. In the world of video games, that's as tame as you can be.

What we see in the trailer is the animation team celebrating in the dance of violence. They get so carried away with it, and the obvious mandate to show off new augmentations, the ratio is all askew.

All of this is surface level violence, though. The simple act of killing. What would be truly disturbing, and where a phrase like "inconceivable" might rationally apply with all its irony, is if the character of Adam celebrated in his violence. If he took his time and "savored all the little emotions" like the Joker would say. If the psychology and context where different, there would be a whole other weight to it.

That's why I don't like the SAW movies, or anything akin to them. You can have a film where no one dies, and it could be the most disturbing thing ever. Violence so deep and dark that I shouldn't ever want to conceive of it.

3rdmillhouse
22nd Apr 2015, 15:32
That trailer.

It's inconceivably violent. I mean ****. The only thing missing is a gang rape, really. Did Wes Craven direct this?

I know it's just a hype trailer, but the apple fell pretty far from the tree. Thinking of Paul, now. "This isn't a training exercise, JC. Your targets will be human beings. Keep that in mind".

Jensen now works for Interpol hunting terrorists, are you seriously telling me he should be a naive pacifist that solves all of the worlds problems with diplomacy and dialog? Also, it's time to stop *****ing about the violence in videogame advertisement, you people are starting to sound like a bunch of pre-pubescent ***. GROW A GOD-DAMNED PAIR OF***.

68_pie
22nd Apr 2015, 15:52
Jensen now works for Interpol hunting terrorists, are you seriously telling me he should be a naive pacifist that solves all of the worlds problems with diplomacy and dialog?

And JC worked for the UN hunting terrorists...

Pacificism, diplomacy and dialogue are central tenets of a DX game.

Interpol is a police organisation. Generally police try to not resort to violence.


Also, it's time to stop *****ing about the violence in videogame advertisement, you people are starting to sound like a bunch of pre-pubescent ***. GROW A GOD-DAMNED PAIR OF***.

And that's just stunningly offensive and idiotic.

CyberP
22nd Apr 2015, 16:42
GROW A GOD-DAMNED PAIR OF***.

Wow way to miss the point. Nobody was even saying the violence in itself was a bad thing (except Pinky, but he is always an exception :)). The point was that it was a shallow and cheap approach when a Deus Ex game is meant to be deep and offer far more than beating down doods with kewl super powers. It misrepresents the game, cheapens it's artistic value, and so on.
If the trailer offered just a little more than some stupid symbolism, some generic dude spouting uninteresting rhetoric, and the rest consisting just of slaughter then this thread probably wouldn't exist.

IvanaKC
22nd Apr 2015, 17:34
The complaints about the killing are getting their fair share here. Maybe it is time to look at the trailer again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2kd7F3YFz8

It is 3:27 minutes long. The first time we see Jensen getting into a fight is around minute 1. At the end of the fight (around 1:17), all of the cops (I think they are cops) are on the ground, but they are moving. Yes, they are beaten up, but they are lying on the ground alive. By the time we first see Marchenko (1:35) Jensen still didn't kill anybody. We can see him stun the guy only to pass by unnoticed and by the time he revealed himself to Marchenko (2:21), only scenes of Jensen killing 3 terrorists were shown and those are taking place in the same room where Marchenko is holding his speech anyway (you can see the same chairs in the background). There is no point in being stealthy anymore. What to do now, avoid bullets? There were too many terrorists surrounding him and if they weren't neutralized properly, they would stand in his way to Marchenko. The makers obviously wanted to show direct approach, nothing's wrong with that, but the trailer doesn't imply that the center of the gameplay is killing whoever stands in front of you. Only one potential segment of the whole game was showed and it occurred to me that it could be how the boss fight happens. One violent segment and everybody lost their mind about it - I would understand if there were many places shown where Jensen just kills whoever gets on his way, but that's not the case. :hmm:

Pinky_Powers
22nd Apr 2015, 17:48
The complaints about the killing are getting their fair share here.

This is the thread to talk about it. :)

I'm not really against violence in video games. You should see what I did to Louis Pan.

EternalAmbiguity
22nd Apr 2015, 21:49
I respect that some have no stomach for violence and a Deus Ex game is their haven for that reason; they don't have to use violence to get through the game. So any trailer for such a game ought to represent that path as much as any other. I'm talking hard, mathematical ratios. Every time Adam kills a guy, we should see him sneaking past another, or non-lethally incapacitating him. Instead we see him killing like it's going out of style. He comes off as feverish with an all-encompassing need to kill.

While I agree with most of what you say here, I want to disagree with this point here: The purpose of the trailer is to market the game, not to give equal representation. Whatever does that best, to whatever intended demographic, is what "ought" to be shown.

I was a member of Bioware's forums for several years, and for each new release they had fans clamoring for them to show female protagonists alongside the male ones. Which is fine in theory, but misses the point of a trailer: it isn't to show all possibilities. It's to market a game.

FrankCSIS
22nd Apr 2015, 22:44
Fair point, Pinky. I enjoy hyperbole a little too much ;) Or is that even the right word? Sometimes I wish we could discuss all of this in French, so I'd have a fair chance of saying what I actually mean to say, instead of a dubious approximation :p

Point stands, though. It's cheap pulp. Let's leave it at that.

Everyone else can go on about whether or not Adam is justified to kill. That was never the point, but if you want to debate the merits of assassinations in conflict zones, be my guest. It would probably make for a more interesting debate!

Currently, I wish my arms were augmented, to beat the living hell out of whomever cooked this horrible ball of goo that parades as an arancini. The last few drops of Italian blood in this Montreal-born body are boiling with inconsumable rage in the face of such deceit! (I'm getting good at this!)

Pinky_Powers
22nd Apr 2015, 23:47
While I agree with most of what you say here, I want to disagree with this point here: The purpose of the trailer is to market the game, not to give equal representation. Whatever does that best, to whatever intended demographic, is what "ought" to be shown.

I was a member of Bioware's forums for several years, and for each new release they had fans clamoring for them to show female protagonists alongside the male ones. Which is fine in theory, but misses the point of a trailer: it isn't to show all possibilities. It's to market a game.

You're philosophy for marketing is to close off interest in other markets. That's not marketing, it's idiocy. Don't worry, you're not alone in your madness. Eidos and Bioware are equally afflicted.

If Bioware had produced just one trailer showing FemShep, it would have opened up interest in markets that didn't know that was an option. It would have done this without hurting their male-centric market, as there is always a slew of MeatheadShep trailers.

The same is true for this Mankind Divided preview. You don't remove the Rambo elements, you just reign them in enough as to not overshadow what makes Deus Ex special. Marketing is about garnering interest. Show how your game is different than all the others.

Marketing is not a magical word you can throw around and instantly legitimize a narrow-minded approach.


Point stands, though. It's cheap pulp. Let's leave it at that.

Agreed.

PS: I like hyperbole too. :cheek:

EternalAmbiguity
23rd Apr 2015, 01:53
You're philosophy for marketing is to close off interest in other markets. That's not marketing, it's idiocy. Don't worry, you're not alone in your madness. Eidos and Bioware are equally afflicted.

If Bioware had produced just one trailer showing FemShep, it would have opened up interest in markets that didn't know that was an option. It would have done this without hurting their male-centric market, as there is always a slew of MeatheadShep trailers.

The same is true for this Mankind Divided preview. You don't remove the Rambo elements, you just reign them in enough as to not overshadow what makes Deus Ex special. Marketing is about garnering interest. Show how your game is different than all the others.

Marketing is not a magical word you can throw around and instantly legitimize a narrow-minded approach.


"It must have equal parts x y and z" is the very definition of narrow-minded in comparison to the open-ended "showcase augs."

Additionally, you're presuming what "my" philosophy for marketing is completely. My only criteria was that it should "market (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/market)" ("to do things that cause people to know about and want to buy ") the game to the intended demographic.

You seem not to know, but Bioware actually did produce several FemShep trailers. It's entirely impossible to know what effect this had if any, though.

Pinky_Powers
23rd Apr 2015, 02:34
"It must have equal parts x y and z" is the very definition of narrow-minded

Not in the least. A broader focus as opposed to a narrower focus is, remarkably, broader.


You seem not to know, but Bioware actually did produce several FemShep trailers. It's entirely impossible to know what effect this had if any, though.

It's true. I don't know. I don't watch a lot of trailers. I used that example because you brought it up. I should love to know why you think it's impossible to know what effect trailers have on sales, though. There are lots and lots of ways to know. Marketing departments are build upon such knowledge. Or rather claims of such knowledge. :) I tend to think it's mostly bull.


Additionally, you're presuming what "my" philosophy for marketing is completely. My only criteria was that it should "market (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/market)" ("to do things that cause people to know about and want to buy ") the game to the intended demographic.

Let me break this down for you:

What I want is a trailer that more accurately represents the game, and in so doing will appeal to a larger market.

You claimed that focusing on lots and lots of killing - thus narrowing the demographics you appeal to - is marketing. Therefore, this is your philosophy as revealed by the words you typed. If this is not your philosophy you need to edit your posts.

As it stands, Y is overshadowing X and Z, to the extent they are practically lost in darkness. The demographic that plays only Y games will be enticed most by this trailer. If you even out the ratios you still have Y, but now X and Z players will take notice. You've broadened your focus, and expanded your market. AND, you're more accurately representing the Deus Ex game.

I am not a fan of grasping for more demographics when it means compromising the principles a thing was build upon. This scenario is the polar opposite. It reclaims the founding principles.

Ok. I feel like I've wondered much farther into the naysayers territory than I intended. The trailer really isn't all that bad. It's just not very good, either. :D

EternalAmbiguity
23rd Apr 2015, 03:15
Not in the least. A broader focus as opposed to a narrower focus is, remarkably, broader.



It's true. I don't know. I don't watch a lot of trailers. I used that example because you brought it up. I should love to know why you think it's impossible to know what effect trailers have on sales, though. There are lots and lots of ways to know. Marketing departments are build upon such knowledge. Or rather claims of such knowledge. :) I tend to think it's mostly bull.



Let me break this down for you:

What I want is a trailer that more accurately represents the game, and in so doing will appeal to a larger market.

You claimed that focusing on lots and lots of killing - thus narrowing the demographics you appeal to - is marketing. Therefore, this is your philosophy as revealed by the words you typed. If this is not your philosophy you need to edit your posts.

As it stands, Y is overshadowing X and Z, to the extent they are practically lost in darkness. The demographic that plays only Y games will be enticed most by this trailer. If you even out the ratios you still have Y, but now X and Z players will take notice. You've broadened your focus, and expanded your market. AND, you're more accurately representing the Deus Ex game.

I am not a fan of grasping for more demographics when it means compromising the principles a thing was build upon. This scenario is the polar opposite. It reclaims the founding principles.

Ok. I feel like I've wondered much farther into the naysayers territory than I intended. The trailer really isn't all that bad. It's just not very good, either. :D

The problem is "it must have x, y, and z" is not actually a broad focus. It's a narrow focus. It has constraints (all the more by your statement that there must be a 1:1:1 ratio) that something general like "showcase the augmentations" does not. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding your initial statement--when you said narrow-minded initially, I thought you were claiming that something like "showcase augs" is narrow-minded. But it sounds like you're purely referring to the combat focus. if so then I agree that it's broader.


It's impossible because there's no statistical method to track the effect of a trailer. You can track the number of views. That won't tell you how many people's minds were changed by it. You can send out a survey to everyone who has a registered email account asking them if a trailer affected their decision to make the game, but your sample size is already artificially limited to only people with registered accounts, and further limited to only those who respond. It's not representative.

Even companies who put analytics in the game and enable them by default (like Bioware) know not to depend on the data as accurate, but rather as a trend (they didn't remove the FemShep option or the non-Soldier classes when they were in the minority of use, for example).


You clearly misunderstood my statement. I claimed nothing about the trailer. I'll quote myself here: "The purpose of the trailer is to market the game, not to give equal representation." I was disputing your statement about purpose. To repeat, I said literally nothing about the trailer. You're mistaken there (please note no "edit" comments on the post).


I don't have much of an opinion on it. The action was too fast for me to distinguish what was going on and I didn't find the dialog moving at all. It merely told me "more Deus Ex is coming, like HR" and that's really all I needed to know (the "like HR" part being critical in the wake of Triad Wars).

NUMBER8ISGREAT
24th Apr 2015, 19:12
For anyone opposing the game trailer I have a suggestion. Go make your own. Kickstarter is there, Unreal, CryEngine and just about everything else is free or cheap. Go make your own vision and bring it to reality instead of living in the past and what you feel this franchise should be. If not, then one man's junk is another man's treasure and lets just leave it at that.

Pinky_Powers
24th Apr 2015, 19:48
You clearly misunderstood my statement. I claimed nothing about the trailer. I'll quote myself here: "The purpose of the trailer is to market the game, not to give equal representation." I was disputing your statement about purpose. To repeat, I said literally nothing about the trailer. You're mistaken there (please note no "edit" comments on the post).

I think you just melted my brain. The contradiction contained within this paragraph almost made me fall out of my chair. And then you reiterate it, to make certain no one will ever forget you.

I simply can't go on with this. I'm either talking way over your, or way under you. And since I'm an egotist, I think it's probably the former.

PS: the purpose of the trailer was never in dispute. Every trailer, poster, and advertizement is marketing. It's like stating the water is wet when I complain the water is too cold. A true and obvious remark, but not one that addresses the problem.

EternalAmbiguity
24th Apr 2015, 23:59
I think you just melted my brain. The contradiction contained within this paragraph almost made me fall out of my chair. And then you reiterate it, to make certain no one will ever forget you.

I simply can't go on with this. I'm either talking way over your, or way under you. And since I'm an egotist, I think it's probably the former.

PS: the purpose of the trailer was never in dispute. Every trailer, poster, and advertizement is marketing. It's like stating the water is wet when I complain the water is too cold. A true and obvious remark, but not one that addresses the problem.

I see my problem now. I should have used "a" instead of "the." I apologize for that. I was talking about your statement and about trailers in general, not about this specific trailer (that's why I brought up an unrelated example).

To respond to your PS, I wasn't addressing the "problem" of this trailer (whichever one it is--my first post here already agreed with Frank that it's too violent), I was addressing the problem of "a trailer needs to have equal representation," which I think is false.

Pinky_Powers
25th Apr 2015, 02:51
I was addressing the problem of "a trailer needs to have equal representation," which I think is false.

That's perfectly fair. My stance on that issue was a little too ridged for even my tastes, anyway.