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View Full Version : TYRANT My thoughts on jump Tyrant and Nosgoth.



KDmP_Raze
8th Apr 2015, 20:12
Hey guys, first off let me say I LOVE TYRANT! Heck, I love this game in general. The big guy is really fun slamming throwing and stomping humans. These are my thoughts on the state of the tyrant, the things that make him fun, and the things that IMO need some love.

I have 79 hours played in game as tyrant only and have 661 kills with jump skill alone. I picked up jump the moment I had the gold and have literally played Jump, Ground Slam, and Ignore Pain since then. Needless to say after many many MANCAKES "I have experience in playing Jump".

I'll cover some of the other skills, mechanics, and frustrations playing against tyrant first.
Melee:

That last patch saw a HUGE change to the tyrants melee animations and hit detection. Before this patch I felt that tyrant required the most accuracy of all classes to land charged melee attacks, and the third regular melee animation. Now he feels like the big monstrosity he is! Clearing a huge path of destruction with both arms crushing everything in front of him. I land all of my charged attacks and even some around corners. I think the adjustments made are perfect and tyrant should be able to squeak hits in around corners when charged. I personally have not felt the tyrant melee changes were over powered when playing as human. In fact, before this patch, I would see a tyrant charge his melee attack and I would almost ALWAYS dodge it with a quick sprint to the side ( not dodge, too predictable).

Melee change = 10/10!

Charge, Throw, and Combos.
Charge was a huge pain for me when playing humans. Since the combos seemed so easy and fast to land. I personally love the nerfs given. Throw was overly easy to land and seemed to almost never miss ( especially against high pingers). Now it seems better so I vote these changes stay.


Ground Slam:

I love Ground Slam, I usually only see newer players using it. Which is a shame since it works great at high levels of play too. The faster animation time than Throw and Shockwave, multiple stuns, and generally great damage make this a killer skill. No complaints and I feel it is balanced as is.

Jump:

This is my favorite... the feeling of landing a 4 man 400+ damage jump is wonderful. There needs to be achievements for 1600 damage jump attacks since I'm sure I have done it at least once.

The Good:

Jump is very difficult to master. I think it is the hardest to play at its best. I always hear people complain about how its uncontrollable and needs buffing. I greatly disagree, the skill has a very high learning curve and shouldn't have the amount of control buffed. I can promise you that given enough time and practice you can land jumps like second nature! I am always trying to jump from low ground over buildings to get sneaky jumps in. It takes time to learn the angles and trajectory and is well worth the huge damage we get from landing the big ones.

Currently we don't have any bonus to landing a jump from higher places. I don't mind this so much but it would be nice to be given an extra 100 damage if my airtime was massive. Would be a good incentive to make a risky jump from up high where the humans have much longer to shoot and CC you.

The Bad:

Jump used to have an unintended bug back in the closed beta. The way it worked was if you jumped from the ground onto a roof top and you landed at the apex of the jump arc then you would stop the jump and the cooldown would not start. I thought this was such a great thing for the jump ability but I see where it was overpowered. It was very fun looking for ways to bounce around the map and took time to learn them all. I propose that mechanic be reinstated with a ½ cooldown duration reset. So we get to leap again earlier when we learn these spots. Thus raising the spectrum of what jump can do and the skill required to play it at the fullest.

Jump is probably the most easily CC'ed ( bolas, hex, warbow) ability in the game. Once you get CC'ed your cooldown is reset the full duration and you do ZERO damage! The big guy hits the ground with NOTHING. It's like he is light as a feather while bola'd. So, keeping yourself from being CC'ed is extremely hard against high tier players. I think there should be ½ Cooldown duration and ½ damage on landing when CC'ed, but no stun. Bottom line, the hardest ability to land should not be the easiest to completely negate. We would like a bone thrown to us. I don't think that giving jump CC immunity like charge is a good idea. It would take the fun out of catching the tyrant midair. The humans need a benefit when catching the tyrant making obvious jumps.

Since the last patch jump was seriously nerfed and I almost lost interest in playing it. We can no longer use jump indoors, at least to an extent. If the rooms are high enough jump still works but there aren't as many of those in comparison to low ceiling areas. This means that quite often my biggest ability is literally worthless. I used jump before to bounce myself off of odd arches to get some sweet high skill jumps. I was learning all kinds of neat ways to make jump work for me in any situation. As of right now humans are heading indoors since they know I lost most of my damage.


I understand that it is a bit ridiculous to have jump operate as before where he could hit a door way right above his head and still do full damage. Almost all abilities can be used anywhere. The only other ability like this is sentinals take off. Both of these abilities could use some reworking in my opinion.

My solution:

In the instances where the tyrant hits the ceiling to low to register damage, we should instead have a new mechanic enacted. The Tyrant will hit the ceiling and take 100 damage and shower debris down in a similar arc that the jump would have carried him. The debris will do ½ the damage that the jump would have done if landed in a normal fashion. It will stun the humans and cause a haze of dust in the air for 5 seconds, similar to the reaver's leap ability. The debris could also stay on the ground for a period of time causing a slowing effect to movement. The tyrant would land in the same spot if the old jump was in place and the debris will be in the same AOE radius as jump already has.

I think this mechanic would work great with the sentinals take off as well.

Executions:

When 2 vamps try to get the execution at the same time they should pull the human in half and gib it, causing a mist of blood in the air that regens our HP while we stand in it for 5-10 seconds. Which will grant the full HP gain divided among the number of vamps staying in the mist. Perhaps blood clouds resulting from gibing vamps could increase vamp movement speed and attack speed as well. So in the fight we are looking for areas to bounce in and out of depending on the gore in that vicinity. This could be a way to give vamps the buff they need at higher levels of play. Perhaps when a human is dragged along the ground a great deal of blood is left causing a speed buff to vamps when on it. Maybe when humans are under 100 HP they leave a trail of blood too. A mechanic for blood buffs could really work well with the game, adding more depth and uniqueness to gameplay.

Voice Chat:

Please increase the volume and use a better codec. Dota and CSGO have terrific voice quality and it goes a long way to help with the team aspect of the games. But don't do this until we have mute functions :) This game would greatly benefit from having good voice chat. My friends and I play on mumble and we are yelling “ he's on me!” “get this guy!” and it really helps heighten the experience.


Well that's my thoughts, love the game and the hard work you guys do! Cheers for tyrant!

ApollosBow
8th Apr 2015, 20:17
Tyrant needs a new primary.....Jump = Poop.

This is my contribution.

KDmP_Raze
8th Apr 2015, 20:22
People think jump is crap because they aren't good at landing it, and it not easy. It's very strong and i miss 1 out of 5 jumps nowadays. I used to miss 3 of 5.

_Kine_
9th Apr 2015, 05:56
Good post. Played KDmP Raze last session. He knows what he's talking about.

HoopleDoople
9th Apr 2015, 14:02
I learned to love Jump Tyrant recently (finding a nice Mysterious Jump provided the motivation) and was quite frustrated when I realized Jump had been nerfed so severely indoors. I definitely understand and agree that Jump should not have worked as it did before, but it has to have some functionality indoors. Currently any time I start to do well as a Jump Tyrant the enemies switch their camp to an indoor location and I'm forced to switch loadouts or classes.

I believe the optimal solution would be to introduce the concept of mini-Jumps. If the Tyrant hits his head early in the Jump his landing would deal half damage and would not stagger enemies; however, Jump would cooldown in half the time. This would allow Jump to be quite useful indoors but prevent chain stagger/stun or easy combos.

I also think it would also be a good idea if Tyrants CCed mid Jump did half damage with no stagger on landing. It just doesn't make sense that his massive momentum is completely disregarded. Jump would still have the full cooldown in this case.

If we really wanted to go crazy we could allow the Tyrant to choose between a mini-Jump (click and immeidately release) or a full Jump (click and hold for a half second) when out in the open. When used in the open the mini-Jump would have a significantly reduced height and distance. Regular Jumps would remain ideal but mini-Jumps would give a Tyrant new option. Even when playing intelligently a Jump Tyrant often finds himself too close to land a Jump yet too far away to safely enter combat.

ChaosTakeda
9th Apr 2015, 20:50
I used to love jump tyrant before the jump nerf. Especially in lower mmrs, where jump is nearly uncounterable and undetectable. I still pull jump out now and then to break the human team's expectations, but I can't keep it going all game due to its current uselessness in tighter spaces (and also for fear of bolas and warbows). In my experience (mid-mmr, maybe the bottom of the barrel on high mmr) charge and marathon are currently the clearly better alternatives. The risk vs. reward on jump is too much higher in games where humans can accurately aim disables and regularly check rooftops/higher sight lines.

I agree that jump requires improvement to remain a valid alternative to charge/marathon. I don't think that the improvement should come in the form of button-controlled mini-jump alternatives. The difficulty of controlling jump and the way it encourages creative use of the environment and positioning justifies its high aoe damage and stun.

I think scaling jump's damage, stun, aoe, and cooldown with distance traveled downwards from peak height (distance traveled negatively along the z-axis while jump is active) would bring back some of jump's viability without supporting abuse in doorways or in lower mmr matches. A jump from level ground to level ground reaching normal peak height could be set to current standards of aoe, stun, and damage (max 500). Maybe a jump from dramatically higher ground to lower ground could reach a damage ceiling of 600, 120% aoe, and stun on humans that lasts longer than on the tyrant himself (his ending animation, that is). And (as currently exists) a jump in a door frame would not surpass the damage threshold and therefore do no damage or stun and have maybe a few seconds of cooldown. Such a scale would balance the risk of a longer hang time for the tyrant (and more time to be shot/cc'd) with a greater payout of damage and stun.

HoopleDoople
9th Apr 2015, 21:19
The goal needs to be increasing the flexibility of a Jump Tyrant. A simple shift in Human camp location or tactics shouldn't be able to make a Jump Tyrant immediately irrelevant. Rewarding jumps from higher ground would further restrict where a Jump Tyrant can operate efficiently and further increase the time it takes him to set up for an assault.

I personally feel that jumping from high ground already has the proper risk/reward. While the enemies have more time to react to your jump it does allow you to travel further and have an easier time aiming. Besides, the Jump Tyrant shouldn't really be initiating anyway - a Charge/Marathon Tyrant is far better at this role if that's what the team needs. A Jump Tyrant's job is to win fights by delivering massive damage (plus a little disruption) once the Humans are distracted. And if the enemies are sufficiently distracted it doesn't matter nearly as much if you make an obvious jump.

ChaosTakeda
10th Apr 2015, 00:03
Right, and the flip side to scaling damage with distance traveled is smaller jumps - jumps where you hit a ceiling, thus restricting peak height - will still do damage and stun, the damage and stun will merely scale with the size of the jump. That means jumping indoors becomes a useful tactic again for burst aoe damage for your jump tyrant.

KDmP_Raze
10th Apr 2015, 00:13
I like the idea of scaling damage for indoor/ short jumps. But that should extend to those extra LOOONGGG jumps you land. Perhaps a system where the majority of jump ranges do the standard damage but the really long ones get a bonus. Maybe a system with a percent of bonus damage based on air time to increase the max damage. Then it would be like a minigame, trying to land the biggest damage single jump. It could be a stat that is tracked and shown with a Badge you get as an ingame cosmetic item. Human ear necklace or something cool we could wear. It would be neat if we could inspect players badges with stat tracking on them. Similar to Dota 2's items. I would love to wear an item that showed my " Highest damage dealt in a single jump" stat.

I think adding a dust cloud similar to the reavers smoke ability ( noticed I said leap ability in the OP) would add some much needed perks to using jump. Blocking some visibility when jump lands or charge hits a wall would be nice. Plus its really befitting of the massive guy to create a huge scene wherever he comes in.

Most of us who have learned how to use the environment to make those tricky jumps would be upset if jumps difficulty was lessened by giving us more control in air or easier aiming in general. It needs to be hard to master but give real benefits to those who master it.

HoopleDoople
10th Apr 2015, 02:10
Most of us who have learned how to use the environment to make those tricky jumps would be upset if jumps difficulty was lessened by giving us more control in air or easier aiming in general. It needs to be hard to master but give real benefits to those who master it.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Jump is a great example of a highly skill indexed ability and the Vampires need more like it. Abilities that require a lot of practice to use effectively can be powerful enough to compete against high skill Humans without breaking the game in low skill matches. Too many Vampire abilities currently rely far more on Human error than Vampire skill for their success.

KDmP_Raze
10th Apr 2015, 13:19
Too many Vampire abilities currently rely far more on Human error than Vampire skill for their success.

So true! This is one of the main reasons I played jump. I saw the huge skill ceiling and loved the way the skill scaled with my time I put in. To me, it's a challenge that I get a great benefit from the huge amount of time i put into it. Every new map is a new puzzle and every location requires planning and adjustment. We definitely need more skills like this in the game. I get bored playing with most of the other skills in the game.

I also think that shockwave needs more love. Perhaps a way to bounce it off of walls and a faster animation time. Learning how to bounce shockwave's off of walls to land a tricky hit would raise the skill ceiling for it and cause players to spend time becoming proficient at it. Any F2P game needs mechanics that reward time invested.

I just recently purchased my first in-game skin because I just love playing tyrant. I only spend money on F2P games after I have invested time in it and see myself playing for a great deal more. I don't impulse buy and to many F2P games rely on cheap tactics to get purchases. I would have bought more but money is VERY tight for me in the last year. Next is an alchy skin!

Halpachino
11th Apr 2015, 01:35
I really loved jump it was my favourite ability as the tyrant but after it went to open beta and i started to face more teams my actual skill level it just became very obvious that it was not going to work (especially if you favour enrage ).

At first i thought maybe maps were the problems, that their were to many sight lines to see a jump tyrant coming from and i thought maybe with the release of the crucible it my be viable on that map but to no avail .

So my suggestion is that when you hold RMB the tyrant crouches and a marker appears like hell strike, then we choose were to aim it and let go when we want to jump .
This gives people more control over there jump which what it sorely needs to be more viable in my opinion.
Scaling damage would also probably be needed for short jumps so maybe 200-300 min and 500 max or if we had a marker that showed us the arc of the jump we could have the damage as normal but short distance jumps would cause him to jump really high in the air.

KDmP_Raze
11th Apr 2015, 03:03
Jump doesn't need anything to make it easier to land. It just takes some practice.... a good bit;).

In order to avoid getting CC'd and dps'd down start learning how to jump from the ground over buildings and obstacles. It does wonders for ya. Most buildings are the perfect height to jump over. You just gotta get crafty.

SaintSugar
11th Apr 2015, 06:49
Began to use jump again, it was my main skill in closed beta and i knew all the tricks with were unintentionally made and currently fixed. (stopped to play with it, when was fixed on cooldown reset jumping) At the moment i think jump can be strong, even without using enrage (i prefer ignore of pain on this loadout), because if i get CC'ed at least i can quickly pop out ignore of pain and run away with saves me. Later i can still go back to fight by using shockwave. The hard counter to Jumping tyrant is hex, because if you get hexed, you can't activate ignore of pain and you are screwed. Knives seems to affect jump strongly, you get instantly put to the ground, if you get bolaed, for me its like waste of CC...so if they use few CC on you, its just benefit for team.

Would be nice to see slight buff to this skill, maybe + 50 more aoe? Because humans can still predict place of landing and easily dodge it. Ofcourse as long as they watch the skies for a glimps of eye, with isn't always possible.