PDA

View Full Version : Complex takedowns



Jerion
8th Apr 2015, 18:25
Going by the trailer, it looks like we'll find a much wider variety of melee possibilities in DX:MD. I've counted projectile blades, old-fashioned-stabby-blades, some kind of fist-mounted tentacle taser, and what looks like an arm-mounted PEPS. Any other new bits spotted? And what do you suppose this means for the takedown system? It looks like there's much more depth to it. It looks like the melee weapons are treated as inter-changable augmentations. That could imply that players' own takedown abilities are shaped by possibly permanent choices about their play style.

There was also something about Adam hacking a computer with his fist. Don't think that's a takedown. Do think that could be interesting.

somesortofmech
8th Apr 2015, 18:50
Going by the trailer, it looks like we'll find a much wider variety of melee possibilities in DX:MD. I've counted projectile blades, old-fashioned-stabby-blades, some kind of fist-mounted tentacle taser, and what looks like an arm-mounted PEPS. Any other new bits spotted? And what do you suppose this means for the takedown system? It looks like there's much more depth to it. It looks like the melee weapons are treated as inter-changable augmentations. That could imply that players' own takedown abilities are shaped by possibly permanent choices about their play style.

There was also something about Adam hacking a computer with his fist. Don't think that's a takedown. Do think that could be interesting.

The hacking thing could go either way. COULD be cool... but I hope it doesn't replace clicking on a security device and punching in the numbers. Though... that aug could be the equivalent of the old multi tool. (weird though, that in 2029 you'd have that aug... then JC would be running around with these clunky remote control things.... anyway).

I think the overall issue for me is how connected the player is to the physical world. My original concern about no melee in HR was that it would feel like you couldn't really "Touch" the world. The take downs were done well enough that I mostly felt in touch. That with the ability to lift objects use computers and security devices.... it came together to keep that feeling of being in touch.

so many first person games really lack a sense of being there and being able to touch the world. most FPS games, in particular fail to bridge the gap between the gun in your hand and the world you are shooting into. Obviously the original Deus Ex, with melee and that you could pick up pretty much anything, really felt like you were connecting with that world. If with these new augs they can maintain that feeling, i'm happy... regardless of the the bit by bit specifics.

tentacle laser thing seemed like the stun gun from HR just mounted onto his arm.

with multiple melee augs... either you can use them manually (old school) or instead of just getting a random take down like in HR... you can choose. which.. if the take downs are just as good... being able to choose is great. In HR... i wish i could have chosen the rotating hand spin the enemies head off thing every time.

DaedalusIcarusHelios
8th Apr 2015, 19:29
The hacking thing could go either way. COULD be cool... but I hope it doesn't replace clicking on a security device and punching in the numbers. Though... that aug could be the equivalent of the old multi tool. (weird though, that in 2029 you'd have that aug... then JC would be running around with these clunky remote control things.... anyway).

The multitools in Deus Ex could be something that non-augs would use. Since JC and Paul are the new nano augmented, perhaps the tech hadn't been converted yet, especially with the abundance of the stand-alone multitools that seem to be everywhere. :)

68_pie
8th Apr 2015, 19:49
Get rid of takedowns, bring back melee combat. Simple.

Or if you must have "takedowns", then one-hit knockouts when you manage too sneak up on someone.

CHERNO-B1LL
9th Apr 2015, 12:34
I really hope they have made the takedown into something skill based. An opportunity to fail would be nice if you mess up a control sequence or the enemy is too strong, but you foolishly try anyway.

MGS has some amazing CQC moves that are essentially like street fighter moves, once you knew the control structure you can perform a dozen different things. I's amazing and totally under used by players and under appreciated by the industry. Far Cry also gives you a set of options that are just variations on pressing x to stab. Because it's simple, in 1st person and uncomplicated I don't mind it being one button for a QTE. If I want to do something else I add extra buttons and perform other manoeuvres for other purposes. Pressing one button for a 10 second kata display though is just stupid.

Anything but press x for overly elaborate and unnecessary cut scene take down.

ZakKa89
9th Apr 2015, 14:42
Please no QTE

I agree something needs to be changed, it is too easy now. But never fix something with something that's worse.

I do agree that MGS has amazing controls but I don't know if that will work for Deus Ex

FrankCSIS
10th Apr 2015, 03:14
The trailer does suggest a greater variety of possibilities, giving me hope this time around the level design is not going to blatantly dictate when to use takedowns as the only logical approach. Two guards standing in the night chatting, and I've just acquired the possibility of double takedowns. The only thing missing is a mid-game tutorial telling me how to proceed to get them both at once!

I'm still wishing for manual melee, as the only fix to true variety, but it's good to see we're stepping out of the one-trick pony approach in favor of a somewhat more customizable playstyle.

Stellazira
10th Apr 2015, 15:05
Please no QTE

I agree something needs to be changed, it is too easy now. But never fix something with something that's worse.

As long as there aren't any QTE, I think I'd be down for pretty much anything for any kind of takedown system.

Dvaythavvar
11th Apr 2015, 07:47
Please no QTE
QTE is the main reason for me to quit games midway. I.e. Witcher 2 had too many of those, one of AC games was so. I've read a complaint that QTE is hated mainly by bad PC players. On the contrary I can do QTEs fine, but they have so high nuisance value that I get broken out my immersion and eventually the interest and immersion for the game is lost.

There's no bigger sin in a (PC) game than QTE and I wish there will be 0 in DX

Irate_Iguana
11th Apr 2015, 16:44
The trailer does suggest a greater variety of possibilities, giving me hope this time around the level design is not going to blatantly dictate when to use takedowns as the only logical approach.

The trailer could also mean that they just "streamlined" the various weapons such as the stun gun and PEPS into the augs. You don't get to pick up a stung gun because you already have the taser aug built in. There is no crossbow because you already have your flying arm blades.

From the looks of things there will at least be new takedowns. It's a pretty safe bet that there will be no separate melee system. Takedowns will probably still be contextual, although there seem to be some new long range takedowns. I wonder if we get to control those or if they are simply played when you use a takedown and are slightly too far away for a melee takedown.

ZakKa89
12th Apr 2015, 05:12
The trailer could also mean that they just "streamlined" the various weapons such as the stun gun and PEPS into the augs. You don't get to pick up a stung gun because you already have the taser aug built in. There is no crossbow because you already have your flying arm blades.

From the looks of things there will at least be new takedowns. It's a pretty safe bet that there will be no separate melee system. Takedowns will probably still be contextual, although there seem to be some new long range takedowns. I wonder if we get to control those or if they are simply played when you use a takedown and are slightly too far away for a melee takedown.

omg Welcome back Irate Iguana. Haven't seen you around on the forums since ages :D

IvanaKC
12th Apr 2015, 12:49
QTE is the main reason for me to quit games midway. I.e. Witcher 2 had too many of those, one of AC games was so. I've read a complaint that QTE is hated mainly by bad PC players. On the contrary I can do QTEs fine, but they have so high nuisance value that I get broken out my immersion and eventually the interest and immersion for the game is lost.

There's no bigger sin in a (PC) game than QTE and I wish there will be 0 in DX

Did you play TR2013? Now, there were some seriously bad QTEs.


Although QTEs could be made well, they usually aren't. Therefore I'm also against QTEs in this case.

Dvaythavvar
12th Apr 2015, 13:30
Did you play TR2013? Now, there were some seriously bad QTEs.


Although QTEs could be made well, they usually aren't. Therefore I'm also against QTEs in this case.

Well least on last Assassins Creed game (Rogue, I think) they did make all QTE events alternatively passable trough using certain weapon from stealth. However on Batman (I think origins ? Not sure which one) only way I was able to beat QTEs was to memorize all possible combos. And then seeing combo X or y used just press blindly the keys needed.

Also other issue with PC-QTEs is that at least in Europe most keyboards are based on languages not "generic international" layout. And I've come across very few games that allow you to remap QTE keys. This happened to me as well, when a game used ] part of QTE which for me takes double modifier and by time I press CTRL+ALT and find number 9 - event had passed and failed.

Auric180
13th Apr 2015, 23:16
From my Wishlist


Repost from DXHR forum with some updates. :)

Melee
Are we still doing TPS animation?
If yes must improve... Alot

Different class of enemy needs different animations of takedowns... Can't simply punch in face or crack an arm against a NPC suited with heavy body armor the same way a naked NPC is...

Facial expressions of victims and Adam need to show more than blank stares.
Especially those without helmets.

Maybe can get some helm cracking like in DXHR trailer so gas can slip in.

Animation
More varieties of kills or KOs animations
Depending on ur position and alert status... Don't want the same brisk walk during a combat face to face a split second ago.

If they're higher or lower by a foot, have takedowns matching the situation. Pull them down, carry them up like the trailer did.

Temporal anomaly
Adam can't pause time... Slow down may be, showing him moving so fast people around him move slowly.

"My arms are augmented"
Kills can be done by hands too, not just blades. Silent kills.
Especially with them Aug arms of his.

Corner and behind obstacles takedowns...

Only way I see them fancy moves on the trailer working is batman style TPS game...

Passive animation
Some FPS hand motions to use a pc or consoles would be nice... Many FOS are doing that already, an advance Aug like Adam shouldn't be left behind.

Enemy classes
Civilians - thugs
No extra protection, guns and knives
Don't need blades to kill

Animation Adam holding back his strength from killing them by accident.

Soldiers non-augs
Standard armor, rifles, etc.
Blades come to action mire often for kills.

Soldiers augs
Legs - move faster
Arms - throw items at us???

Commandos augs
Cloak, Counter takedowns during combat (QuickTime event)
Resist concussion effects during combat but if unexpected they get blinded as well.

Heavies
Suit of armor, high protection
Constant gas immunity unless helm cracked.
Constant concussion immunity

Resist frontal takedowns during combat.

Heavy weapons.

knox140
14th Apr 2015, 14:18
QTE is the main reason for me to quit games midway. I.e. Witcher 2 had too many of those, one of AC games was so. I've read a complaint that QTE is hated mainly by bad PC players. On the contrary I can do QTEs fine, but they have so high nuisance value that I get broken out my immersion and eventually the interest and immersion for the game is lost.

There's no bigger sin in a (PC) game than QTE and I wish there will be 0 in DX


Never understood why people hate them so much... Sometimes they're really annoying, I agree (I've been playing Bayonetta recently and the QTEs in that come so infrequently and have such a short reaction time that you are pretty much guaranteed to fail on at least the first try), but when they're core to gameplay, like the counters in the Batman games, why are they so bad?

Also, if you've ever played Mark of the Ninja that's another example of where they use QTE really well.

I wouldn't really mind if they used them for takedowns. The more powerful the takedown is, the more complicated the QTE would be to pull it off... seems like a pretty good way to balance what would essentially just be a contextual button press otherwise.

Dvaythavvar
14th Apr 2015, 15:24
Never understood why people hate them so much... Sometimes they're really annoying, I agree (I've been playing Bayonetta recently and the QTEs in that come so infrequently and have such a short reaction time that you are pretty much guaranteed to fail on at least the first try), but when they're core to gameplay, like the counters in the Batman games, why are they so bad?

Also, if you've ever played Mark of the Ninja that's another example of where they use QTE really well.

I wouldn't really mind if they used them for takedowns. The more powerful the takedown is, the more complicated the QTE would be to pull it off... seems like a pretty good way to balance what would essentially just be a contextual button press otherwise.

Well one possible reasoning i found for myself - as I have asked myself same question : why I let such thing even break my immersion so easily. Then from my other post :
"Also other issue with PC-QTEs is that at least in Europe most keyboards are based on languages not "generic international" layout. And I've come across very few games that allow you to remap QTE keys. This happened to me as well, when a game used ] part of QTE which for me takes double modifier and by time I press CTRL+ALT and find number 9 - event had passed and failed."

So I believe my issue is rooted to the combos that make me play piano, even when developers did not intend so. The ] example is like so. If a game allows you to remap some keys, then less likely i feel this hate. If I have to press E-]-\ then it's impossible for me as after E I'd have to use 2 hands and if there's action/movement in between (i.e. dodge hostile attack) it becomes tedious. On scenario of re-maping (i.e. I can change possible \ or ] to anything without double modifiers) and reasonable reaction time that does not require player to learn all combos, but react to them, then yes perhaps it can add something fun and challenging. QTE should feel tense, but seamless. I shouldn't alter my general-hands-position to be able to react to QTE.

Or maybe it is because majority of QTEs are not feeling fun, I have become too wary of them. I feel that most QTE events in games are made thinking about controllers and perhaps I should stop being stubborn and buy controller for my PC. I am sure it would make all QTE feel different as controllers are more universal. Keyboards arent.

Auric180
14th Apr 2015, 21:36
I wouldn't really mind if they used them for takedowns. The more powerful the takedown is, the more complicated the QTE would be to pull it off... seems like a pretty good way to balance what would essentially just be a contextual button press otherwise.

Power level of takedowns wouldn't be my idea for DX's QTE, if it is implemented.
Prefer if it is to counter an enemy's counter of ur takedown.

If u fail the QTE one click hopefully, they manage to do what bosses do in DXHR.
Counter ur takedown and damage the player.
:)

Irate_Iguana
15th Apr 2015, 12:56
Never understood why people hate them so much...

It transforms the game from whatever genre you are playing to a timed game of Simon says. I could do without the blatant reminders that I'm playing a game.