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Blackatana1
6th Aug 2014, 15:55
I have noticed a markedly different approach to the finer tactics between myself and others and wanted you guys to weigh in. It all boils down to situational awareness. and strategy differences.

Something I see a lot of people do even at higher levels is what I call spawn rush. The scenario is this: your on the human team and the vamps attack. You are the first human to die and when you respawn you note that only 1 or maybe 2 humans are left alive. they are under half health and are being attacked. You are clear across the map and the next human to spawn is at least 10 seconds behind you. Do you rush blindly across the map towards your two remaining allies? More often than not people will do that. Change of plans. as your running, the lone remaining human survivors bite the dust. Do you keep running towards the battlefield? most of the time players will. I don't understand it. I get that maybe, just maybe you get there in time to pick off a wounded vamp. but it seems more often than not you arrive to 2-4 freshly fed vamps and your by yourself because you were the first to die and sprinted blindly. It seems to me that the better strategy is to stop and regroup with the rest of your team as they spawn. Why do people do this "spawn rushing" as I call it? I have been in scenarios where the vamps do not even have to track the humans, they will blindly march to the same spot, staggered no less to encounter the waiting vamps. If I am a human and am one of the last survivors I try to run towards the newly spawned humans instead of waiting for them to get to me. That way the vamps at least don;t know where we are. If I can't reach my allies in time if I spawn first I stop running and let us all regroup.

On the vamp side please be aware of health stations. If you die first as a vamp and your vamp buddies are killed off. Don;'t rush into the fight. Instead if timing is right, get to the nearest health station the humans are likely to use. You can get some really easy kills off wounded humans that way.

Everyone knows that teamwork is key. But when the vamps attack in concert it can often boil down to four 1 on 1 duels. try to avoid this. I will deliberatly attack a vamp on my buddy and ignore the one on me. Focus firing even one vamp down will give us all a better chance of survival. Be aware of the bola damage break.. In this scenario I will try to bola my vamp and then ignore him and focus fire. Too many times I see hunters bola a vamp and then shoot it till the bola breaks. Even though there are other vamps that can be targeted. Situational awareness. Let the bola do it;s job, attack the vamps that are a threat right now instead of basically wasting the bola by breaking it right away. The same can be said of hex. I know it's easy to target the vamp in front of you instead of the one attacking your friend. You can't always rely on your friends to focus fire your target with you, so focus fire their vamp.

Speaking of focus fire I have seen human allies injury a vamp and it is retreating during the middle of a drag out team brawl. They will actually chase the vamp to try to finish the job. Sometimes this is the right call. Other times it's not. Your allies could probably use you to deal with the vamps still attacking instead of running after a wounded vamp that is effectively out of the fight.

I note a lot of play that comes from situational awareness and a lot of players seem to make the decision that I wouldn't. Do you guys agree? or am I the one thinking about the game wrong?

Sanguise23
6th Aug 2014, 16:06
i agree, however when to make the call to chase a wounded vamp or run in after spawn is tricky i have made both the right and wrong call here.

FireWorks_
6th Aug 2014, 18:43
Most of this is spot on.

Some things are really dependant on the situation in detail.
When I see survivors, I will always start running in their direction. On the way Ill press tab and access the situation. What are the numbers? Whats the health of the enemies Ill encounter? Can I wipe up, get a kill or just feed them one more? Also does my class win a 1v1?

Chasing is really depending on both teams. Often its bad play that I picked up against bad opponents. Though if they are good enough to always come back and deal full damage before escaping, Ill break out and hunt as much as I can. Dynamic humans are a lot harder to kill than static ones but theres also vampire teams that overcome that...

Sorrowgate
6th Aug 2014, 19:36
When respawning I tend to start moving towards the team again at varying speeds. Usually if there are teammates alive I will move in to assist but also watch their health pools and be aware of vision. If they start dying I will stop moving towards them and make some distance to allow respawning players more time to regroup, but if they manage to hold on long enough I will probably come around the corner and help them finish off their attackers. Sometimes I even try to prevent feeding, but only if it's from a safe position.

As for being on my own, I will try to move towards the group and expect them to move towards me, but without putting themselves in a bad position. I also tend to become hyper aware of my surroundings. I don't want to be easy to spot and become a free kill for vampires, which might lead me to camp out alone for moments. I also don't want to lead the vampires to the team unless their numbers are thinned or the rest of the team is fully grouped up). Moving back to the same spot isn't so bad provided that people remain aware and have regrouped elsewhere first (unless they're trying to hide inside a building or something, then they get told off :P)

How to handle a fight is class dependant. My preference is to help teammates, but it becomes easier or harder depending on the class. As a Hunter or Prophet, being great duellists, I feel free to cc the vampire in my face and shoot at a vampire bothering a teammates. As a Scout I might be a little selfish and fight the immediate threat but I'll try to throw a volley on teammates when available (preferably as a fight breaks out before I'm struck). As for Alchemist, I think quite highly of her ability to clean up vampire teams but also think she's absolutely a priority to protect for her lack of cc and tendency to hurt herself on close targets :P what usually happens is when I free up a decent Alchemist she'll then lay down pain on the rest of the vampires.

Then situational awareness comes into things and priorities change completely. Alchemist is one of the best for helping her teammates with the Fullbore Cannon and Light Bomb because most vampire cc breaks at 250 damage to the vampire, just 250 damage away from having an extra free hand in the fight, so that takes top priority. My favourite way to look at things is that it's a lot easier to shoot a vampire that's lunging at your teammate.

MasterZtark
6th Aug 2014, 22:38
Good post Blackatana1.

I usually do the same thing when respawning as a human, but ultimately it's situational and can change depending on many things.
If I respawn and all three of my team are still alive at the battle, I get my ass back there ASAP.
If only two are still alive at the battle I start moving towards it (my other dead team mate -should- spawn by me, so the closer I get the closer he will be as well when he spawns) and hopefully both of us can re-enter the battle together (looking at the scoreboard and seeing that me re-entering the battle without my other teammate will give us the numbers advantage then I will go in without him).
If there's only one team mate alive I usually leave him and start camping the new spot, which might sound harsh or something but I think this really is the best play otherwise we are all going to get picked off outnumbered again.

I think the problem happens when your team starts dying after you started heading towards them but before you arrive back at them. I often have that moment of, "Oh crap, do I keep going or do I head back to the new camp spot?"
Another issue is what your team does. If only one guy is alive at the battle and one of your newly respawned teammates by you starts going back to help him, what do you do? My "code" says stay put when there's only one alive at the battlefield, but now this guy going back by himself to help is sure to die also. Ugh. Tough call, and I usually do whatever the last guy does (If he stays then so do I, but if he follows the guy going back to help our "last man standing" then so do I). Going back to save just one guy usually ends up in us all getting picked off outnumbered though sadly, not much difference if I stay behind by myself though and those two rush back.
There are always times though when I am running back to help my team, and they die just before I go around the building or whatever. I tend to throw a grenade or something over a wall at my teams corpse (hopefully a weak vamp is trying to feed on him) then run like hell back to my team and the new camp spot.
I do feel like if three of your teammates die and you're that "last man standing" that it is your responsibility to make it back to them alive at the new camp spot across the map, not for them to risk coming back to you together. Although if you die on your way back I don't hold that against you, we already marked you as dead.

PencileyePirate
7th Aug 2014, 05:20
If I see teammates die while I'm rushing back to help I'll immediately turn around and wait for all to respawn before I reengage. I think most players learn this lesson the hard way, sooner or later.

SixieV
7th Aug 2014, 14:25
Pretty much everything MAsterZtark said if how I react.

If there are still teammates alive I will run back but I keep an eye on their health. If the red is filling up quickly and they're dying off I find a new place to hide/camp until they respawn.

If one teammate is still alive and seem to be putting up a fight, I will carefully make my way back and see if I can help and have teammates spawn with me. If the person dies before I get there I turn right back around.

When I'm a vamp I always hold off until my team moves in no matter what. And usually I play Deceiver so I have to wait for them to attack first anyway or I'm toast.

Aggggh
7th Aug 2014, 15:25
I generally make the call based on what health I see the vamps are at. If it's two team mates and they ping the vamps and I see the vamps are at half health, I'll probably try to catch up. But if it's just one team mate I'll probably wait for the rest of the team to respawn and pick a new point to set up at.

The things that really kill me (sometimes literally in game) is when people decide to run off on their own to chase off a kill. Chasing down that Tyrant with 1/4 health with ignore pain is not worth splitting up the team. A lit up vamp is going to be hanging back waiting for an easy kill or a body to heal with. You'll get to kill them soon enough without splitting up the team.

Same deal with when the entire team decides to rush the spot where they just died. Humans are supposed to play defensively. Rushing after vamps means you're giving up your range advantage. Stop it ;.;

With vamps the problem always seems to be with getting people to coordinate. I've been in games playing as a tyrant where I've had 3 reavers on my team expecting me to initiate but I have to ask them to lead in with tox/smoke so I at least have a small chance of not getting shot to pieces on a leap/charge.

Sanguise23
7th Aug 2014, 15:27
I generally make the call based on what health I see the vamps are at. If it's two team mates and they ping the vamps and I see the vamps are at half health, I'll probably try to catch up. But if it's just one team mate I'll probably wait for the rest of the team to respawn and pick a new point to set up at.

The things that really kill me (sometimes literally in game) is when people decide to run off on their own to chase off a kill. Chasing down that Tyrant with 1/4 health with ignore pain is not worth splitting up the team. A lit up vamp is going to be hanging back waiting for an easy kill or a body to heal with. You'll get to kill them soon enough without splitting up the team.

Same deal with when the entire team decides to rush the spot where they just died. Humans are supposed to play defensively. Rushing after vamps means you're giving up your range advantage. Stop it ;.;
I try not to chase hurt vamps but sometimes in the heat of battle i do and usually regret it

SixieV
7th Aug 2014, 18:08
Its disappointing when a vamp limps away with like 46 hp and if I see them making an exit I'll chase after them a little bit with my multicannon but always stay within sight of my team. If they round a corner or climb a wall and I otherwise lose sight of them I let em go. Usually when they come back around they can be killed within a shot or two anyway.

But yeah I hate when I end up on a team that doesn't play the defensive and actively goes out looking for/chasing vamps to kill. I've never seen this method be successful, in fact these losses are always the worst. Everyone is usually split up and attacked in the worst locations.

Aggggh
7th Aug 2014, 19:24
I try not to chase hurt vamps but sometimes in the heat of battle i do and usually regret it

I generally only do it if we have the vamp team hopelessly outclassed. Otherwise it's a great way to get you or your team mates killed because you or they can't provide cover. The best way to look at it imo is that you'll get more kills if you stick with your team, even if you're a KD whore chasing down a kill away from your team mates just isn't worth it most of the time.

FireWorks_
7th Aug 2014, 21:12
I generally only do it if we have the vamp team hopelessly outclassed. Otherwise it's a great way to get you or your team mates killed because you or they can't provide cover. The best way to look at it imo is that you'll get more kills if you stick with your team, even if you're a KD whore chasing down a kill away from your team mates just isn't worth it most of the time.

You only get into trouble if your team is static. You get a lot of good results even against very good players if you are the aggressive team. Force them to mistakes, have your team be agile so their stuff never lands where they plan. Just dont blindly chase, chase and know what your team is doing in that moment.

Aggggh
8th Aug 2014, 00:35
You only get into trouble if your team is static. You get a lot of good results even against very good players if you are the aggressive team. Force them to mistakes, have your team be agile so their stuff never lands where they plan. Just dont blindly chase, chase and know what your team is doing in that moment.
Pfft no. Nothing can kill a vamp quicker than 4 humans focusing fire from a proper defensive position. Aggressive play just increases response time to stupid checks like pounce/dominate mind/kidnap and gives vamps a better chance at forcing a 1v1.

And again, aggressive play gives up your range advantage as a human. Half the battle when playing as a vampire is getting in close while taking as little damage as possible. Letting them do that for free is silly.

Sorrowgate
8th Aug 2014, 15:22
Pfft no. Nothing can kill a vamp quicker than 4 humans focusing fire from a proper defensive position. Aggressive play just increases response time to stupid checks like pounce/dominate mind/kidnap and gives vamps a better chance at forcing a 1v1.

And again, aggressive play gives up your range advantage as a human. Half the battle when playing as a vampire is getting in close while taking as little damage as possible. Letting them do that for free is silly.

He's not telling you to get up close to them. Vampires often use hit and run tactics and if you're playing static they will throw as much as they can at you without putting themselves in harm's way (or avoiding as much damage as possible, as is the case with some Leap Attack -> Evasion/Shadowstep Reavers and some Charging Tyrants). They will just comfortably sit on buildings or ledges out of your line of sight while waiting for cooldowns and picking the best approach. As a human team, just move around in your camping zone, keep in line of sight of each other, watch each other's backs, but move so you can see vampires and shoot at them, forcing them to move. Use grenades on rooftops. Force them to have to run and make mistakes in the process. If they instead turn on you, then you've already got a head start, more power to the humans.

Aggggh
8th Aug 2014, 15:57
He's not telling you to get up close to them. Vampires often use hit and run tactics and if you're playing static they will throw as much as they can at you without putting themselves in harm's way (or avoiding as much damage as possible, as is the case with some Leap Attack -> Evasion/Shadowstep Reavers and some Charging Tyrants). They will just comfortably sit on buildings or ledges out of your line of sight while waiting for cooldowns and picking the best approach. As a human team, just move around in your camping zone, keep in line of sight of each other, watch each other's backs, but move so you can see vampires and shoot at them, forcing them to move. Use grenades on rooftops. Force them to have to run and make mistakes in the process. If they instead turn on you, then you've already got a head start, more power to the humans.
We were discussing aggressive play where players chase down vampires, so if that's not what he was talking about, he jumped into the wrong conversation. That's not anything remotely close to moving around a good defendable area while keeping team mates in line of sight.

As you've said, all humans really need to move around in a good defensive position and force vampires to make mistakes. Chasing down a fleeing vamp who is perfectly able to mitigate enough damage to the force you to have to leave the area your team is covering in order to chase him is almost always a bad decision for you and your team mates.

Sorrowgate
8th Aug 2014, 16:03
We were discussing aggressive play where players chase down vampires, so if that's not what he was talking about, he jumped into the wrong conversation. That's not anything remotely close to moving around a good defendable area while keeping team mates in line of sight.

You are quite right about that, I just recognise what he said from what a Fireworks in a game on Nosgoth suggested we do, but the two were quite different situations so either I misunderstood where he's coming from or he misunderstood where you're coming from. For chasing vampires I avoid chasing easy kills (but to be fair they usually die because it even becomes a chase anyway unless it's a Reaver popping evasion which isn't worth fussing over anyway) when their teammates are still healthy and beating up my team, but when it comes to chasing runners like hit and run tactics or a vampire escaped on low health I completely agree with the "make them make mistakes" approach.

FireWorks_
8th Aug 2014, 16:39
We were discussing aggressive play where players chase down vampires, so if that's not what he was talking about, he jumped into the wrong conversation. That's not anything remotely close to moving around a good defendable area while keeping team mates in line of sight.

As you've said, all humans really need to move around in a good defensive position and force vampires to make mistakes. Chasing down a fleeing vamp who is perfectly able to mitigate enough damage to the force you to have to leave the area your team is covering in order to chase him is almost always a bad decision for you and your team mates.

If you mean by chasing running down to the other side of the map ignoring anything else in a totally mindless state for 20secs, its a bad thing.

Else, read again what I wrote and how Sorrowgate went further into detail. Hes spot on with what I meant (yes we met recently :)).

Range is not the only advantage you can have. Momentum and dictating the pace are others pretty universal to gaming. Its not necessarily bad to give up your first position in trade for numbers and disrupting their attack setup. Catch some of them pants down or force them into a fight while others are not able to attack yet. If they do then, you can imagine someone writing "dont attack one by one" on their chat.

Its not a pledge for brainless slaughter. Its a counter to advanced teams that easily shredd any static defense of humans.

MasterZtark
8th Aug 2014, 17:23
A common mistake I see is two or more people chasing down a "1 shot", when it only takes one person to finish the job. Generally going out of the Line Of Sight of your entire team for even a second is a bad idea, but if you're going to risk it make sure it's only one person (the risk vs reward on one guy chasing a "1 shot" vamp is probably best bet).

For example we'll be camping the bridge on Sommerdamm, with our Scout in the back (on those broken steps usually) sniping. A wave of vampires hit, and in the end a Reaver pops Evasion and takes off running behind one of the buildings. So many times I see two or three humans chase him down, separating from the others and leaving the rest of the team (particularly the scout) behind. Only one guy needs to quickly get out of position to finish off that Reaver!

I have actually seen that exact example above used to initiate the fight! A Rever drops down, right away pops Evasion and runs away, and half the team follows him. Even if the Reaver dies it's very likely his team is tearing apart the humans still at the camp spot and then they will move on to killing the ones that chased.

Sorrowgate
9th Aug 2014, 01:40
I have actually seen that exact example above used to initiate the fight! A Rever drops down, right away pops Evasion and runs away, and half the team follows him. Even if the Reaver dies it's very likely his team is tearing apart the humans still at the camp spot and then they will move on to killing the ones that chased.

This is precisely why I don't waste cooldowns on a Reaver unless it's in the thick of things :P textbook baiting. I can understand chasing a near death kill down but I don't let him lead me out of sight, I just take a couple of shots from position if he is that low until he's out of sight then turn to help my teammates. A Reaver popping evasion to run from a fight is just not worth it unless he's in an open area and is the last one left. It's better to note his position and throw grenades at where he's run off to after the fight's over.

SixieV
9th Aug 2014, 03:42
I died a couple times needlessly today because of this very thing. I notice most of the new free weekend players seem obsessed with being aggressors no matter what team they are on and charge whether they have backup or not. The whole team will go off chasing 1 injured vamp or as soon as they respawn charge back to the place they were killed only to find a pack of well fed vamps waiting and immediately die.

Made me think of this thread. I didn't realize how common it could be and how long it takes for some to realize it's not a good idea, even if they keep dying they're right back at it at respawn lol.

BR0sephStalin
9th Aug 2014, 06:06
We were discussing aggressive play where players chase down vampires, so if that's not what he was talking about, he jumped into the wrong conversation. That's not anything remotely close to moving around a good defendable area while keeping team mates in line of sight.

As you've said, all humans really need to move around in a good defensive position and force vampires to make mistakes. Chasing down a fleeing vamp who is perfectly able to mitigate enough damage to the force you to have to leave the area your team is covering in order to chase him is almost always a bad decision for you and your team mates.

While I agree that chasing down vamps is generally a poor tactic, I certainly believe there are scenarios where it is appropriate. I think this is certainly true when some of your team mates need to move to heal at a health station. If 1+ team mates HP is dwindling and you know they are moving towards a health station and may be re-engaged upon by a fleeing reaver looking to land a kill with a pounce alone onto a healing human it can be appropriate. This is specifically true in high level games where humans generally have the advantage any ways and ANY kill by a vampire is worth it if it results in a 1 for 1.

I think different games require different tactics. Most of the high level games I play the human side controls the game even if the game is balanced. As such pushing the advantage as a human can be worth it because you are simply taking control of the game. I wouldn't say I chase down kills frequently, but when I do it generally ends well.

There are plenty of situations where you have a pretty good idea that the rest of your team isn't going to be engaged upon, or if they are then they will win even without you. More often that not it is the player chasing down the kill that gets engaged on while chasing.

I think the most important thing is how far you chase the kill. Breaking line of sight with your team is almost always bad, and I am guessing this is what you are referring to. I chase a bit to regain LoS of the vamp while still maintaining it with my team. Prioritizing things is very situational so I think it would be wrong to make the statement that chasing is always bad.

MasterZtark
9th Aug 2014, 13:48
Good post Broseph, I agree!

The Healing Station scenario happens a lot to me, and to be honest I really don't know what to do most the time in a random match with little/no communication. I see a team mate needs health so I would love to "escort" him to the healing station behind the building we are camping, but the other two guys on the team are staying put at the camp spot and I don't want to separate us like that. It seems like in random matches the general rule is that if you need health you're expected to go risk getting it by yourself and come back, otherwise you wait until the entire team goes to get it (usually after a vamp attack wave).

Blackatana1
9th Aug 2014, 14:28
Most of the time I end up risking the health station by myself as a human. Although I do feel a strong drive to try to escort the wounded guy to a health station. I tend to have high success with hitting up the health station as soon as I need it. As I just play pugs the vamps are often uncoordinated and it's possible to hit up the station and be back before the rest of the vamp team even engages.

Shout out tip to the scouts: throwing down volley on a distant health station that your ally is using could be just the thing to keep them alive.

Sorrowgate
9th Aug 2014, 23:32
I tend to watch over teammates that need health rather than escort them, it's important to keep them in line of sight but it's important not to lose the rest of your team or attract the attention of vampires due to your bigger unit. Hugging walls, checking corners, making sure there's no vamps looking while healing up are very important and I don't want to get my teammate caught because a vamp sees me acting bodyguard. Likewise it's nice to be covered but I tend to go on little stealth missions to heal, always watching every corner and rooftop to make sure no vamp spots me and always ready to roll out of the health station charge. If multiple people need to use the station I back off from it and take turns, better than everybody being caught at once with their pants down.