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selkirie
22nd Mar 2015, 11:58
PUNCTURE

I know alot of you will disagree with me, but I really do believe this skill needs some kind of nerf. It doesn't have to be enormous. I believe 350 seems about right.
Why ?
In pub play, ( I'm not gonna go into ESL competitive scene, since it's barely a 5% of the population. Competitie scene is irrelevant in this discussion. When the cup just doesn't go to Finals in NA, it's 5 teams at most. ) the situation is never ideal. Not every single teammate is in line of sight.
Sp drop down behind someone, puncture, take off works and it's half the life of any human.
And well, abduct away, puncture and one melee strike generally will kill anyone.
Now, I know alot of people are gona say, it's the human's fault for not assisting their teamates., but truth is in pubs, there's no communication, and the rest of the team will be busy doing anything else but helping you.

When things go wrong, ALOT of people resort to Sentinel exactly due to this.
The nerf isn't meant to change it all, but to balance things a bit.

VANGUARD

Vanguard needs some love. His damage could go in a middle ground between where it is and where it was ( although I do believe the only overpowered axe was Impaler ), in my opinion. Sadly between him and an alchemist, I will always go alchemist due to AoE capabilities.
What I'm getting at is that there's nothing unique about him, there's no purpose to the class beyond the CC from Shield charge. His hits are not hit-scan, he can't dodge, practically single target. He really is the less efficient class of em all.
Every other class has a purpose and a situation for it.
Rousing Cry is generally 150 health regained more or less.
I hope you guys have something nice in store for the rest of the F Abilities.

FIREWALL

I believe a nerf was implemented without any note on it for this skill. The animation between the casting and the drop of the flame wall has been lengthened.
I don't think this was necessary since it hinders the capabilities for an alchemist to react.

TYRANT

Please fix his melee. His last hit is the most unreliable thing you could possibly have created XD.

MULTI-BOW

The damage on this thing was fine at 65 per shot. That or add an enormous amount of recoil to it.

TRAP

Cooldown to be applied after it explodes. IMO

PROPHET

Reduce the spread penalty a little bit, dead eye seems to be mandatory in my experience for any sort of shot to hit at mid-range.

PARTYS

Teaming up with a few friends ( good at the game or not ) shouldn't mean you have to face crazy MMR people.
I've seen this happen way too often. A team of 4 friends who are just looking to have fun, all of different levels, should not be punished by having to face some of the best players in the game.
Some complicated system should be implemented though for people who play at really high level with teamspeak, and practice on pub games ( oh you know who you guys are :P ) completely DESTROYING any kind of possible balance.
Maybe by distinguishing people with 400+ hours in the game from others ?

LEAVER PENALTY

Now, it doesn't need to be 30 minutes without playing, and no, a full MMR loss is not something a leaver cares about.
Furthermore, you're helping him get easier matches where he'll have fun.

How about full depletion of the charge on ALL the items in the inventory ? ( this may sound dumb, but having to go through all your items to recharge them is kinda annoying XD ?

Getting sent back to the same game is not a good idea for the rest of the players in the game. Nor unabling people to join a game for 30 min.

I know you guys don't want to scare off potential players, but leavers are doing that job for you.
The amount of 3vs4 games you come across is just ridiculous and quite frankly could potentially lead to good/fair players to leave the game altogether aswell.

Is there a way for the penalty to occur only if a person manually exits the game /closes the game ?
That to avoid people who crash or get random dc's from suffering this.

As usual, these are my opinions. Feel free to comment if you want.
Oh, I don't mean to offend anyone with the ESL thing but it's true.

HoopleDoople
22nd Mar 2015, 15:28
I definitely agree that the current method for handling parties is not working. Premade teams of 4 amazing players still dominate any competition except another equally talented premades. But grouping with friends of differing skill levels usually results in very difficult matches for the group.

My proposed solution is to have the game apply a "smart" MMR modifier to groups. Whenever a specific group first plays together they will have a minor MMR adjustment for a slightly stronger opposition. Over time this adjustment will increase or decrease (potentially disappearing altogether if need be) depending on the group's performance. If the MMR adjustment was ever too large to allow for a match, it would force the premade to be split in matches.

In terms of punishing leavers, it is a backwards approach that would swiftly kill Nosgoth. People don't usually leave to protect their stats or any other such nonsense, they leave because they were not having fun due to poor team balance. A lot of players aren't willing to burn 20 minutes on a decisively inferior team and I can't say that I blame them.

The solution is to either implement a way to end these horrible matches early or a way for the losing team to concede defeat and then have the match altered to be fun. For example, once the losing team concedes defeat there could be a mid-match team scramble based on score rather than MMR. Or the losing team could have a flexible health bonus (that goes up or down based on performance) to level the competition.

Of course improving the MMR and team balance is always a good idea to prevent unbalanced matches in the first place. For example, when players stay in the same lobby the previous round's score should also be utilized when balancing teams for the next match. If two players were clearly the best in the match they should not end up on the same team next time; the same is true for two players who were clearly the worst.

Ygdrasel
22nd Mar 2015, 17:25
truth is in pubs, there's no communication, and the rest of the team will be busy doing anything else but helping you.

Truth is, that's not true. I play basically nothing but pubs and we manage to work together just fine.

I very much like Hoople's idea for leavers. Give a surrender option then a team scramble.

selkirie
23rd Mar 2015, 12:55
I definitely agree that the current method for handling parties is not working. Premade teams of 4 amazing players still dominate any competition except another equally talented premades. But grouping with friends of differing skill levels usually results in very difficult matches for the group.

My proposed solution is to have the game apply a "smart" MMR modifier to groups. Whenever a specific group first plays together they will have a minor MMR adjustment for a slightly stronger opposition. Over time this adjustment will increase or decrease (potentially disappearing altogether if need be) depending on the group's performance. If the MMR adjustment was ever too large to allow for a match, it would force the premade to be split in matches.

In terms of punishing leavers, it is a backwards approach that would swiftly kill Nosgoth. People don't usually leave to protect their stats or any other such nonsense, they leave because they were not having fun due to poor team balance. A lot of players aren't willing to burn 20 minutes on a decisively inferior team and I can't say that I blame them.

The solution is to either implement a way to end these horrible matches early or a way for the losing team to concede defeat and then have the match altered to be fun. For example, once the losing team concedes defeat there could be a mid-match team scramble based on score rather than MMR. Or the losing team could have a flexible health bonus (that goes up or down based on performance) to level the competition.

Of course improving the MMR and team balance is always a good idea to prevent unbalanced matches in the first place. For example, when players stay in the same lobby the previous round's score should also be utilized when balancing teams for the next match. If two players were clearly the best in the match they should not end up on the same team next time; the same is true for two players who were clearly the worst.

I agree with your overall post.
I still think leavers should be punished.
Just yesterday, there wasn't a game I didn't get leavers. They sadly just kept rejoining since there were no other lobbies and it screwed the fun for me. These were also two high level players that were in a party leaving 12-6 just started games.

While I do agree that 30-6 whoopings are not fun, even for the winning team.. There are many who quit close losing games.

So where to draw the line ? Punishing the 1 or two who are unable to contemplate the idea of losing that screw the game up or punish the 7-6 others left in the game who are willing to try and make the best out of it ?


Truth is, that's not true. I play basically nothing but pubs and we manage to work together just fine.
Your truth isn't neccesarily mine. I'm glad your experience has been good, mine generally isn't.
Now, could you please not take one bit of text out of context and actually bring something useful to the table about the rest of the points made ?
Your opinion interests me, what do you think about Multibow ? Vanguard's current state ?
Your post just looks like every single other post you make on forums, an attempt to contradict everything and everyone just for the sake of it.


I very much like Hoople's idea for leavers. Give a surrender option then a team scramble.

I like this idea.

Ygdrasel
23rd Mar 2015, 17:29
Your truth isn't neccesarily mine. I'm glad your experience has been good, mine generally isn't.
Now, could you please not take one bit of text out of context and actually bring something useful to the table about the rest of the points made ?
Your opinion interests me, what do you think about Multibow ? Vanguard's current state ?
Your post just looks like every single other post you make on forums, an attempt to contradict everything and everyone just for the sake of it.

(The following is explanatory rabble of little relevance to balance input and thus can be safely skipped. The beginning of balance-relevant posting has been highlighted in bold red for convenience.)

I don't contradict for its own sake, I contradict what is incorrect or poorly stated. That was, in my view, poorly stated. People can be (read: are) woefully presumptuous creatures on the flimsiest of bases and the last thing needed is people to start prematurely bailing out of pubs because they just assume nobody will play properly anyway - and some would because it reads as an objective statement as opposed to a subjective experience. I just prefer both sides of that experience to be clearly represented. Clarification, not contradiction, is the intent. And frankly, the context was irrelevant to the meaning of the words so I had little need to retain it in my response. And as for "Every single post..." Now, see, that's just hyperbole. It undermines any point you make when you do that especially when in the same post, you're quoting something that plainly puts the lie to said hyperbole.

Now to the point:

I haven't used multibow in ages so I can't speak on it. What have they done to it? I've noticed the responsiveness of Firewall seems changed but it hasn't been a bother. I have no idea what people are on about over Tyrant's melee but then, I just started running Tyrant this week. No view on Trap. Never tried it even on the few occasions where I used Scout.

Prophet spread could use a tweak. These are pistols, not bloody shotguns. Mid-range shouldn't be such a chore.

As for Puncture...It really is completely the fault of the team not helping out. That or you were a straggler away from the team. Puncture can often kill an unprepared or confused player but a prepared player(s) can often escape or successfully fight back. No need to re-balance it around the shining example of crappy teamwork.


And now...Vanguard...Oi. Yeah, Vanguard's a bit of a mess. Splitter was worthless from the very beginning and is still worthless now. I know the dev team's motto is that they're SIDEgrades, not UPgrades but that just isn't true in a few cases.

Splitter's got nothing going for it. Two axes, two damage hits, but Impaler does more anyway last I checked.
All things considered, Waraxe is just too slow to be viable even with its increased damage.
Impaler needed a nerf and got one. The rest needed a buff and (AFAIK) got nerfs alongside the Impaler.
Impaler is still the clear superior and the only reasonable upgrade.

Rousing Cry seems fine as a post-battle band-aid but worthless mid-battle where it could be more useful. And I honestly don't notice the movement buff at all. Personally, I'd cut out the healing aspect entirely - between stations, mist and Sacrifice, they really do have enough healing already and what sense does it make that this hulking battle machine is a healer anyway? - and increase the buff a bit. The Vanguard in both design and name seems suited to a buff-oriented style and not really at all to a healer role.

DesolatedMaggot
23rd Mar 2015, 19:37
Puncture: I agree and disagree. Damage is fine, nerf the range so that you can actually dodge the thing -- So many times I feel like I'm clearly out of range, can clearly see the tips of his wings not touching me but get hit anyway.

A lot of people resort to Sentinel when things go wrong because its their main, nothing wrong with going to your main when your team is doing badly.

Vanguard: He could use some lovin', but he doesn't need much. Some options for F would go a long way, potentially.

Firewall: Agree, change was unnecessary. Not big enough to not get used too though.

Tyrant: Devs have already stated this is incoming.

Multibow: Agreed, bow is too powerful at the moment, the recent buff to accuracy and damage was a little drastic imo. A good multibow user, which isn't hard to learn, can do as much damage as an alchemist per-shot, and do so far more reliably than an Alchemist can.

Trap: Not needed but wouldn't be against this. Traps were already indirectly nerfed when vampire speed was buffed, don't even have to roll over them anymore to avoid them, just don't stop walking.

Prophet: Agreed. Never really saw how this nerf was needed, or how it makes sense that they're just as accurate as a Hunter's rapid fire, larger-clip'd crossbows. If you want nerf their long range capability do it with damage fall-off, not accuracy. -- Though I think their long range poke is part of the class' niche and shouldn't be changed. She is the only class aside from Scout that really has strength at extreme range, and Scout's is still far stronger. It was in a nice place, I felt.

Parties: Agree it sucks when you're trying to play with some friends of lower skill and not really bothering to coordinate... I have no idea how to fix this proper though. The feeling that I have to smurf to play with newbie friends, just so they can actually enjoy themselves is not good.

Leavers: I agree leavers should be punished, though most of the suggestions I see are kind of harsh in this regard. And I know folks like Hoople defend them, but I frequently see people leave after one wipe which is ridiculous. I'd like to see an increasing time-out penalty, 5m for the first, 10m second, etc. with a resetting timer on it of 24h or something.

HoopleDoople
24th Mar 2015, 00:28
Puncture: I agree and disagree. Damage is fine, nerf the range so that you can actually dodge the thing -- So many times I feel like I'm clearly out of range, can clearly see the tips of his wings not touching me but get hit anyway.

Puncture doesn't particularly bother me, but if it was nerfed I'd rather see it put a cap on the turning during the animation. Currently if you are in range there is no dodging it - only the Sentinel missing you.


Vanguard: He could use some lovin', but he doesn't need much. Some options for F would go a long way, potentially.

Either his damage per Axe needs raised somehwat or the hitbox needs to be slightly more generous. I understand Vanguard was game-breakingly OP on release but I think the nerfs were a bit of an overreaction.


Multibow: Agreed, bow is too powerful at the moment, the recent buff to accuracy and damage was a little drastic imo. A good multibow user, which isn't hard to learn, can do as much damage as an alchemist per-shot, and do so far more reliably than an Alchemist can.

The Hunter in general is clearly top tier for the Humans but the Multibow is by far the worst offender. What really makes the Hunter dominant is his generalist nature - he has no bad matchups and is rather effective at both close and long range. I would like to see his weapons adjusted for balance to make each one weak at either close or long range. Perhaps the Repeater and Siege Bow could have too much recoil or spread for long range accuracy while the Multibow and Bolt-Thrower would suffer in terms of close range DPS.


Trap: Not needed but wouldn't be against this. Traps were already indirectly nerfed when vampire speed was buffed, don't even have to roll over them anymore to avoid them, just don't stop walking.

I want to see an arming delay from when the Trap is set to when it can explode, to prevent it from being used as a pseudo-grenade mid-combat. In exchange the delay from being triggered to exploding can be reduced slightly.


Prophet: Agreed. Never really saw how this nerf was needed, or how it makes sense that they're just as accurate as a Hunter's rapid fire, larger-clip'd crossbows. If you want nerf their long range capability do it with damage fall-off, not accuracy. -- Though I think their long range poke is part of the class' niche and shouldn't be changed. She is the only class aside from Scout that really has strength at extreme range, and Scout's is still far stronger. It was in a nice place, I felt.

A few patches back the Prophet was wildly overpowered due to a combination of incredible CC (Hex), amazing accuracy, and overly powerful Piercing Pistols. The Piercing Pistols nerf was about right but I do think the spread increase was too heavy handed. A little more accuracy for the Prophet at the cost of more dramatic damage fall-off at long range would be ideal.


Leavers: I agree leavers should be punished, though most of the suggestions I see are kind of harsh in this regard. And I know folks like Hoople defend them, but I frequently see people leave after one wipe which is ridiculous. I'd like to see an increasing time-out penalty, 5m for the first, 10m second, etc. with a resetting timer on it of 24h or something.

Some leavers are just ridiculous, I'll admit. I'd wager a large portion of these players wouldn't be so quick to quit if they weren't facing 20 minutes of misery for sticking it out on a bad team. I suspect players are in the mindset of "team balance sucks more often than not so quit inferior teams immediately to minimize time wasted". It still bothers me that players don't give their team a fair chance to prove itself before leaving though. Many matches a failed initial assault is the impetus that encourages my team to listen to my advice on coordinating our attacks better.

PencileyePirate
24th Mar 2015, 01:42
Puncture: I agree and disagree. Damage is fine, nerf the range so that you can actually dodge the thing -- So many times I feel like I'm clearly out of range, can clearly see the tips of his wings not touching me but get hit anyway..

If anything is going to be nerfed with puncture it should be this (a very slight range nerf.)


Puncture doesn't particularly bother me, but if it was nerfed I'd rather see it put a cap on the turning during the animation. Currently if you are in range there is no dodging it - only the Sentinel missing you.

Turn limits are a bad thing in general, as they make the game feel less responsive. I would hate this.

HoopleDoople
24th Mar 2015, 02:22
Turn limits are a bad thing in general, as they make the game feel less responsive. I would hate this.

Yeah you're probably right now that I think about it. I know a range reduction would annoy me as well though. Perhaps upon activation the 90 degree arc at the back of the Sentinel is "safe" and cannot be aimed at? Hopefully this would better skill index the ability and give Humans a way to dodge other than Sentinel error. Proper positioning would be essential to prevent Humans from being able to roll out of range or behind the Sentinel.

TendrilSavant
24th Mar 2015, 02:50
MULTI-BOW

The damage on this thing was fine at 65 per shot. That or add an enormous amount of recoil to it.
I think the Multibow needs a bigger delay between bursts. I think it's gimmick should be high burst damage with accuracy, but with the lowest sustained damage potential.

Burst fire weapons are built to control recoil more efficiently (or more accurately to counter a soldiers lack of skill to control recoil). But for Nosgoth, too much recoil on the Multi-bow and the Repeater becomes a better option.



Perhaps the Repeater and Siege Bow could have too much recoil or spread for long range accuracy while the Multibow and Bolt-Thrower would suffer in terms of close range DPS.
They've tried adding more recoil and spread to lessen Hunters effectiveness, and while it brought Hunter in line at higher levels; they became unwieldy for beginners. I'm definitely for giving Bolt-thrower and Multibow less DPS though.

I've suggested this before, and I still think it would help with balancing Hunters:

Make Hunter's Repeaters function more like miniguns rather than assault riffles. Adding a windup time to achieve maximum DPS would help lower Hunter's long range offensiveness without hurting his damage output at short range.

It's a little disheartening that even after the GCD removal, I'm still seeing 4 stack of Hunters viable in scrims and tournament streams.

selkirie
24th Mar 2015, 09:02
Puncture: I agree and disagree. Damage is fine, nerf the range so that you can actually dodge the thing -- So many times I feel like I'm clearly out of range, can clearly see the tips of his wings not touching me but get hit anyway.

A lot of people resort to Sentinel when things go wrong because its their main, nothing wrong with going to your main when your team is doing badly.

Leavers: I agree leavers should be punished, though most of the suggestions I see are kind of harsh in this regard. And I know folks like Hoople defend them, but I frequently see people leave after one wipe which is ridiculous. I'd like to see an increasing time-out penalty, 5m for the first, 10m second, etc. with a resetting timer on it of 24h or something.

Puncture :

That's actually a far better suggestion than mine. Now that I think of it, I remember I had a Nosgoth cam some time ago I wanted to post to display how ridiculous the range of Puncture is. I never bothered to post it in the end and didn't think about it when writing this post.
Making it dodgeable is in fact what it needs.
I would LOVE to see this implemented.
Although, I disagree with them switching because it's their mains. To each its opinion, but I think it's because it's the vampire with the best soloing capabilities.

The leavers is a hard issue to deal with but I think something should be done in order to at least discourage leavers a bit.

The surrender thing could be something nice to implement

SilentVirtue
24th Mar 2015, 15:00
PUNCTURE

I know alot of you will disagree with me, but I really do believe this skill needs some kind of nerf. It doesn't have to be enormous. I believe 350 seems about right.
Why ?
In pub play, ( I'm not gonna go into ESL competitive scene, since it's barely a 5% of the population. Competitie scene is irrelevant in this discussion. When the cup just doesn't go to Finals in NA, it's 5 teams at most. ) the situation is never ideal. Not every single teammate is in line of sight.
Sp drop down behind someone, puncture, take off works and it's half the life of any human.
And well, abduct away, puncture and one melee strike generally will kill anyone.
Now, I know alot of people are gona say, it's the human's fault for not assisting their teamates., but truth is in pubs, there's no communication, and the rest of the team will be busy doing anything else but helping you.

When things go wrong, ALOT of people resort to Sentinel exactly due to this.
The nerf isn't meant to change it all, but to balance things a bit.

Very Few people use senti in esl, so nerfing puncture makes very little effect, but maybe start with 375 and see how things go from there? removing 12.5% of its dmg right away means what people will use wing flap ... and thats more dangerous when used right.

VANGUARD

Vanguard needs some love. His damage could go in a middle ground between where it is and where it was ( although I do believe the only overpowered axe was Impaler ), in my opinion. Sadly between him and an alchemist, I will always go alchemist due to AoE capabilities.
What I'm getting at is that there's nothing unique about him, there's no purpose to the class beyond the CC from Shield charge. His hits are not hit-scan, he can't dodge, practically single target. He really is the less efficient class of em all.
Every other class has a purpose and a situation for it.
Rousing Cry is generally 150 health regained more or less.
I hope you guys have something nice in store for the rest of the F Abilities.

Axes hit boxes and lack of viable options here are the issue, make axes easier to hit (revert the nerf) and he would be fine, he's a CQC expert, and works well with a scout with warbow.

FIREWALL

I believe a nerf was implemented without any note on it for this skill. The animation between the casting and the drop of the flame wall has been lengthened.
I don't think this was necessary since it hinders the capabilities for an alchemist to react.

Agreed.

TYRANT

Please fix his melee. His last hit is the most unreliable thing you could possibly have created XD.

Don't seem to be having much issues myself, but not a tyrant expert

MULTI-BOW

The damage on this thing was fine at 65 per shot. That or add an enormous amount of recoil to it.

Reduce the rate of bursts rather than the damage.

TRAP

Cooldown to be applied after it explodes. IMO

why nerf an already useless ability?

PROPHET

Reduce the spread penalty a little bit, dead eye seems to be mandatory in my experience for any sort of shot to hit at mid-range.

Agreed, prophet is basically a worse hunter now, worse range, dps, and cool downs and less AOE

PARTYS

Teaming up with a few friends ( good at the game or not ) shouldn't mean you have to face crazy MMR people.
I've seen this happen way too often. A team of 4 friends who are just looking to have fun, all of different levels, should not be punished by having to face some of the best players in the game.
Some complicated system should be implemented though for people who play at really high level with teamspeak, and practice on pub games ( oh you know who you guys are :P ) completely DESTROYING any kind of possible balance.
Maybe by distinguishing people with 400+ hours in the game from others ?

top teams are few and far between, and we don't stack lobbies because we want to, we do it because there is nothing better to do, we want to play with friends and should not be punished for that because people are not capable of keeping up

LEAVER PENALTY

Now, it doesn't need to be 30 minutes without playing, and no, a full MMR loss is not something a leaver cares about.
Furthermore, you're helping him get easier matches where he'll have fun.

How about full depletion of the charge on ALL the items in the inventory ? ( this may sound dumb, but having to go through all your items to recharge them is kinda annoying XD ?

Getting sent back to the same game is not a good idea for the rest of the players in the game. Nor unabling people to join a game for 30 min.

I know you guys don't want to scare off potential players, but leavers are doing that job for you.
The amount of 3vs4 games you come across is just ridiculous and quite frankly could potentially lead to good/fair players to leave the game altogether aswell.

Is there a way for the penalty to occur only if a person manually exits the game /closes the game ?
That to avoid people who crash or get random dc's from suffering this.

As usual, these are my opinions. Feel free to comment if you want.
Oh, I don't mean to offend anyone with the ESL thing but it's true.

Dropping the mmr so i don't get 20+ leavers a match would be nice, if all the leavers are at the bottom of the pile, atleast good players and new players (those with starter mmr) wont have to deal with it as much. leaving a game should be a 2x mmr drop AND ban the person for the duration of the match. It works in league, it will work here


Finally, Please don't say that balance at top level play means nothing, most top players are just waiting for a balanced e-sport game to come out, the game is horrendously balanced and the developers are not even talking to the competitive players about balance.

Don't get me wrong the game is fun, but watch my stream for more than 20 mins, I bet you will see more than 10 leavers. that coupled with the lack of balance is starting to make players quit and look else where.

I dont find this offensive atall selkirie you make some valid points... but ignoring the competitive scene in regards to balance is a little short sighted... ESL teams and top MMR players are the most equipped to discuss balance as they have 1st hand expierence of the power of good co-ordinated strong ability combinations, thats not to say we should be ignoring the casual pub player either... games should be balanced for both!

selkirie
24th Mar 2015, 15:23
Finally, Please don't say that balance at top level play means nothing, most top players are just waiting for a balanced e-sport game to come out, the game is horrendously balanced and the developers are not even talking to the competitive players about balance.

Don't get me wrong the game is fun, but watch my stream for more than 20 mins, I bet you will see more than 10 leavers. that coupled with the lack of balance is starting to make players quit and look else where.

I dont find this offensive atall selkirie you make some valid points... but ignoring the competitive scene in regards to balance is a little short sighted... ESL teams and top MMR players are the most equipped to discuss balance as they have 1st hand expierence of the power of good co-ordinated strong ability combinations, thats not to say we should be ignoring the casual pub player either... games should be balanced for both!


Don't get me wrong Silent but in my opinion, the balance at ESL level and the balance in normal pub games is completely different.
There will NEVER (imo) be a ground middle for casual Nosgoth and ESL Nosgoth simply due to the asymetrical fight style.

I do watch your stream and I do agree. You do get a huge amount of leavers.
Your party stacking is what is causing that. Sadly it isn't due to the lack of balance of the game. It's due to the manual tiping of the odds you are creating by stacking some of the best players in the game.

You can't blame people for leaving the games you create ...Can't bring guns in a knife fight type of scenario ?

SilentVirtue
24th Mar 2015, 15:34
Don't get me wrong Silent but in my opinion, the balance at ESL level and the balance in normal pub games is completely different.
There will NEVER (imo) be a ground middle for casual Nosgoth and ESL Nosgoth simply due to the asymetrical fight style.

that's not true, it can be done... its just difficult, for example, if you buff vamps... but raise the skill cap, good players can use the buff, bad players cannot, meaning low skill matches vamps are not actually getting any better, but for high skilled teams, the buff would help address some balance issues

I do watch your stream and I do agree. You do get a huge amount of leavers.
Your party stacking is what is causing that. Sadly it isn't due to the lack of balance of the game. It's due to the manual tiping of the odds you are creating by stacking some of the best players in the game.

Once again, i play with people from all skill levels, I play with friends... and i should not be punished for that!

You can't blame people for leaving the games you create ...Can't bring guns in a knife fight type of scenario ?

Actually, i kinda can... que up and join a game and leave it when you are losing.... its just plain immature (not talking about you specifically btw, but the general mindset of the people who have quit their way to the top of the mmr)

So before you go saying "its your fault for you and your friends winning games" think about what that actually means...

selkirie
24th Mar 2015, 15:56
I hardly ever quit a game. If I do, it's because the rest of the team is either toxic and won't shut up about how they think the game should be played or due to a hacker.
If I have the misfortune to be sent on one of your games, I'll finish it up no problem.. but don't ask me to stay after in a lobby where I know I'll lose the next game because you are tipping the odds in your favour. Plain and simple.
( Oh and not just because I'll lose, I don't give a **** about losing, I care about having fun, adaptating and learning from mistakes. Sadly, none of those things happen once you stack the way you sometimes do.

You may enjoy your gameplay better that way, you may play certain times with friends that arent' particularly good at the game, then again even by the mere fact of being able to communicate, but you are giving yourself an unfair advantage compared to the solo players out there.

You do sometimes play with all type of friends, and as I said, I don't mind two friends teaming up, but now 4 players stack... you, hex, and hetsen.
Anyway to really balance that out ?

I do feel we are striving off topic here.

SilentVirtue
24th Mar 2015, 16:00
I hardly ever quit a game. If I do, it's because the rest of the team is either toxic and won't shut up about how they think the game should be played or due to a hacker.
If I have the misfortune to be sent on one of your games, I'll finish it up no problem.. but don't ask me to stay after in a lobby where I know I'll lose the next game because you are tipping the odds in your favour. Plain and simple.
( Oh and not just because I'll lose, I don't give a **** about losing, I care about having fun, adaptating and learning from mistakes. Sadly, none of those things happen once you stack the way you sometimes do.

You may enjoy your gameplay better that way, you may play certain times with friends that arent' particularly good at the game, then again even by the mere fact of being able to communicate, but you are giving yourself an unfair advantage compared to the solo players out there.

You do sometimes play with all type of friends, and as I said, I don't mind two friends teaming up, but now 4 players stack... you, hex, and hetsen.
Anyway to really balance that out ?

I do feel we are striving off topic here.

Usually, if we are 4 stacking a lobby, its becuase there are no teams to play against. but honestly... anyone can find people and team with them, some of the guys I party with don't even use heal stations..... so just having 4 people on teamspeak doesnt make THAT much of a difference!

HoopleDoople
24th Mar 2015, 16:11
I do watch your stream and I do agree. You do get a huge amount of leavers.
Your party stacking is what is causing that. Sadly it isn't due to the lack of balance of the game. It's due to the manual tiping of the odds you are creating by stacking some of the best players in the game.

Once again, i play with people from all skill levels, I play with friends... and i should not be punished for that!

You should not be punished for playing with your friends, but neither should your competition be punished with a terrible match because you played with your team. Unfortunately Nosgoth handles groups so poorly that we can't have both currently.

My idea of declaring an early victor in unbalanced matches and transforming the match into something competitive would be a good start. Your enemies would still take an auto loss most times but they would shortly be able to still have fun either via a mid-match team scramble or, as would be more palatable for your group, a flexible max health bonus for the losing team (the amount going up/down based on deaths/kills by the losing team).

Even better would be a smart group MMR adjustment. A one size fits all approach does not work when a group could be players who only just met, friends of wildly different skill, or a group of competitive play veterans. However, this would likely prevent the best groups from ever finding matches. A workaround to this would be allowing the top groups to be matched up against a team of lower MMR in unofficial matches. These matches would not count for stats and the base gold reward would be ~65 for everyone. In these matches the health bonus rule would be in effect from the very beginning to better level the playing field.

SilentVirtue
24th Mar 2015, 16:18
Hoople, thanks for the ingenious idea!

giving a small hp buff to the losing team could actually be quite interesting, the more you are behind, the more HP you have to play with, provided eating bodies and heal stations also are increased by the same %age,

Could also be used in competitive, and add another layer of stratergy... taking vamps 1st so that you are a few kills behind going into the human round... or vice versa

selkirie
25th Mar 2015, 10:53
ALSO, in my opinion

THROW

PLEASE FIX THE RANGE ON IT. I don't know if it's due to server desynch or what it is but THIS shouldn't happen.
See how my character is dragged by a magnetic force to the Tyrant's grasp ? Maybe they added those telekinesis power the turelim have.
If this is seriously serve desynch, then we have some serious worries.

http://i.imgur.com/xYu2oSA.jpg

JUMP

JUMP indoors should have the same effect as takeoff. I want to believe you guys are all up for calculated jumps instead of simply taking advantage of a roof.

Thank you for your time.

HoopleDoople
25th Mar 2015, 14:24
I agree that the range on Throw seems absurd, though I suspect latency is making the problem worse. If the Tyrant has 200 ping where he sees you will differ a fair bit from where you see yourself. Thus you could be well out of throw range on your screen but still get caught because you are in range on the Tyrant's end. Still, I'd like to see how Throw would perform with a moderate range reduction in exchange for the ability to aim the throw.

I disagree with changing Jump indoors. Jump is already less popular than Charge and has significant downsides to keep it balanced. If anything Charge is more effective against indoors enemies you can start the attack from safety and knockdown most or all of the clustered enemies. Jump requires the Tyrant to walk indoors without dying or being CCed before he can utilize it, and though the damage is high it only staggers enemies.

selkirie
25th Mar 2015, 19:56
Just to point it out, the tyrant in the screenshots was runnig 28 ping and I'm generally at 60. I can understand these kind of situations with 150 +ping, now this is something really different.
I am all up for throw being aimable but taking out some of his range. Just so that you don't get caught while 3 feet away in the midst of a dodge.

As to jump, besides the fact that the tyrant is smashing his head on the ceiling, what I think is the main problem with it in doors is that you most likely won't be able to dodge it. Charge can be dodged, even in tight places.

DesolatedMaggot
26th Mar 2015, 00:09
Throw: Agreed the whole teleport-into-his-arms thing is weird and sometimes happens from retarded ranges, if you want the range to be that long change the animation, it looks broken as hell as is.

Jump: I agree and disagree here. I think it should work more like Dive Bomb, allow the Jump to work in doors but deal damage based on air-time. Tthe minimum damage for Jump should be quite high, considering its far less controllable than Dive Bomb is, OR better yet give Jump more air-control, talking Pounce-esque level of air-control -- it should have this anyway, imo.

In all honesty Jumps using ceilings and overhangs can take far more calculation than ones that do not, if done right you can use the overhead obstacle to modify your trajectory and hit targets you otherwise could not. I really like this added depth and would be very sad to see it go.