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dayoum
20th Mar 2015, 14:31
GameRadar: Five days of exclusive access to Rise of the Tomb Raider (http://www.gamesradar.com/five-days-rise-tomb-raider/).

d1n0_xD
21st Mar 2015, 08:17
Well, that was an amazing read, the game "looks and plays" awesome by the read of it :D Love the stealth options, I always like to play mindgames with enemies, and if they find me, I'll just kill them (a la Far Cry 3) :D

And it looks like the tombs and puzzles will be good, we'll see, but what I want is those numerous journals and artifacts that give us a sentence or two of new info/lore narrated by Lara, I really liked those :D

Goddammit, this game is gonna be perfect, I said it once but I'll say it again, I love numerous games and genres, but TR is that one game that I get super-excited and emotional about. There are other games that I get a similar feeling for, but TR is just something else, I can't describe it... I love it <3

And while I'm against the MS deal, I can see why it pays out, it really seems like a 10/10 AAA game the franchise deserves! I just hope it comes quickly to other platforms :3


n Tomb Raider the spectrum began and ended with GPS caches and diary entries. These asides return, but in a pleasingly organic fashion, such as when Lara happens across a mysterious stone obelisk and begins to theorise out loud about its purpose. I love this, Lara, you're such a nerd :3


Those hubs are two to three times larger than Tomb Raider’s You spoil me, CD :3

Well, one thing's for certain, I can't wait to find one of those doors/spaces that are entrance to tombs or other secret places and to get that feeling of excitement and fear of the unknown! If they nail that, the game's 100/10, no doubt :3

Chocolate_shake
21st Mar 2015, 10:18
A niggling doubt/worry I have is that most of the tomb/puzzles will be optional quests while the main story will be Lara vs Trinity fights with a tacked on ancient space .

I hope they have balanced fighting and exploring in the main story better this time . I don't mind tons of combat , but I do mind only having that in the main story path

d1n0_xD
21st Mar 2015, 11:25
^ Yeah, I would like 3-4 main story puzzles, that are harder/bigger, and make sense within the story and mythology. Aaaaand a crapton of mini-tombs a la TR2013 :D

dayoum
21st Mar 2015, 13:41
I'm still waiting for more news about side-characters. I'm not really into Johna. I don't mind him, he was fine, but he was also a bit boring. I'd like to see Sam and Reyes back. I loved Reyes' sarcasm and Sam's humor in TR'13. Just a short note about Sam being a bigger mental wreck than Lara isn't enough for me. I don't want to see her as a damsel again. The actress who dubbed her is pretty good with martial arts, they could use it and give Sam some buttkicking skills. Those, along with her sense of humor, ability to provide comfort and her obsession with camreas would be a nice mix. She could be a great sidekick who'd also help Lara document her findings. And Reyes... well, I'd like to see her famous punch in the game. Comic version was great, but it's not the same :)

d1n0_xD
21st Mar 2015, 13:55
I would like new side-characters, let Sam and Reyes rest for a while. Some Russian friends would be nice, a snarky sarcastic Russian would make my day :D I hope that wasn't stereotypical or racist :eek: Though I'm sure we'll met a lot of people on this adventure, the story and the setting just beg for it :D

dayoum
21st Mar 2015, 21:28
If they wish to give her a Russian friend, they better work hard on his/her accent because TR'13 Russian accents were americanized ;)

But... the new Lara is shy :) She's not really open for friendships so pleeeeaaaaase, I need Sam :D

And I need Reyes' sarcasm and punch too :D Just think about it - Reyes coming out from the shadow, punching the guy in the face so hard, he'd lose most of his teeth. Her comment would be hilarious for sure!

Driber
21st Mar 2015, 21:49
I would like new side-characters, let Sam and Reyes rest for a while. Some Russian friends would be nice, a snarky sarcastic Russian would make my day :D I hope that wasn't stereotypical or racist :eek:

Since when are Russians a race? :p


If they wish to give her a Russian friend, they better work hard on his/her accent because TR'13 Russian accents were americanized ;)

Vlad was just that good with his English :lol:


pleeeeaaaaase, I need Sam

http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png

IvanaKC
21st Mar 2015, 22:36
I'm still waiting for more news about side-characters. I'm not really into Johna. I don't mind him, he was fine, but he was also a bit boring. I'd like to see Sam and Reyes back. I loved Reyes' sarcasm and Sam's humor in TR'13. Just a short note about Sam being a bigger mental wreck than Lara isn't enough for me. I don't want to see her as a damsel again. The actress who dubbed her is pretty good with martial arts, they could use it and give Sam some buttkicking skills. Those, along with her sense of humor, ability to provide comfort and her obsession with camreas would be a nice mix. She could be a great sidekick who'd also help Lara document her findings. And Reyes... well, I'd like to see her famous punch in the game. Comic version was great, but it's not the same :)


What, Jonah was boring because he is a good soul, huh? :p

Can't agree with you about Sam. She was a boring character, not fit for a companion in my eyes. And I definitely wouldn't like her to suddenly develop some skills and be Lara's sidekick. Why wasn't she more capable in first place on Yamatai, then? Besides, there's no need for another character with the same set of skills - we already have Lara.

Driber
21st Mar 2015, 22:40
She was a boring character, not fit for a companion in my eyes. And I definitely wouldn't like her to suddenly develop some skills and be Lara's sidekick. Why wasn't she more capable in first place on Yamatai, then? Besides, there's no need for another character with the same set of skills - we already have Lara.

Ivana, you know what's coming, don't you...

d1n0_xD
21st Mar 2015, 22:47
Since when are Russians a race? :p

Oh, you'd be surprised what people can pull out of their asses :p

IvanaKC
21st Mar 2015, 23:28
Ivana, you know what's coming, don't you...





:D

dayoum
21st Mar 2015, 23:33
Vlad was just that good with his English :lol:
Yeah, so good, he was unrealistic :rasp:


http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png
:poke: :rasp:


What, Jonah was boring because he is a good soul, huh? :p

Can't agree with you about Sam. She was a boring character, not fit for a companion in my eyes. And I definitely wouldn't like her to suddenly develop some skills and be Lara's sidekick. Why wasn't she more capable in first place on Yamatai, then? Besides, there's no need for another character with the same set of skills - we already have Lara.
No, not because he's a good soul ;) He just... "was there". Don't get me wrong, I adore him, but I'd rather see Reyes and Sam more. Reyes is sarcastig, Sam is funny ;)
Who said I want another character with Lara's skills? Nope, nope, NOPE ;) I simply would like to see Lara working with someone but not on survival level. Documentary would be great, with some action, but survival part of the game should be focused only on Lara :)

Driber
22nd Mar 2015, 00:28
Oh, you'd be surprised what people can pull out of their asses :p

Ahh right, you were being sarcastic, gotcha :D

Yeah, some people really are clueless what racism means :p





:D

No...

http://driber.net/os/maximum-brofist.jpg

:D


Yeah, so good, he was unrealistic :rasp:

Well he certainly was not real :p



:poke:

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but Lara's NO just left you speechless :rasp:


Sam is funny

I agree. But not in the way you meant it :lol:

dayoum
22nd Mar 2015, 00:36
Well he certainly was not real :p
Yeah, but it just made him even more unreal ;)


Sticks and stones may break my bones, but Lara's NO just left you speechless :rasp:
I see it more like your "no" :tongue2:


I agree. But not in the way you meant it :lol:
Oh come on, she's cute :P And funny. A bit clumsy too :P She was a great addition to the game and I can't imagine Tomb Raider without her anymore. Can't help it :tongue2:

Rai
22nd Mar 2015, 00:48
Sam was funny? When? Her only contribution to the game was so Lara had motivation, but Lara's main motivation was escaping the island. Without Sam being Samsel, CD would have come up with an alternative, perhaps concentrating on just stopping Himiko. Had CD not bottled out of their original plan to have Lara have to kill Sam in order to stop Himiko, then that would have given Sam a better purpose. To be fair, Rhi has gone some way in redeeming Sam in the comics, except I haven't seen much evidence, up until the preview of issue #14 that is, that Sam was more of a wreck than Lara. I'm fine with seeing Sam in a cutscene, perhaps a flashback. But I'm happy Jonah is accompanying Lara on the exhibition.

As for the actual article, at first I thought some journalist had ripped off the OXM article until someone pointed out it was the same writer, oops :p. So it's nice that the OXM article is now available online for those who didn't see it :).

dayoum
22nd Mar 2015, 02:38
Sam made me laugh and smile a lot. I loved pretty much all of her lines, including journals. The only one I didn't like was "I knew you'd save me" or something like that, at the end. It felt cheap. But otherwise she was great.

Roth and Johna were serious, although Roth had one funny line with Lara's PJs. Alex was funny too, but the girls were my favs so for me they owned the game ;) Johna has a good heart, he's a great companion and I can't deny it. And I don't mind him being Lara's companion on her travel to Syberia at the beginning. I just wish to see Sam in the game so it would be great to hear something positive in this case, that's all :)

As for the game and those articles - the game seems to be the best of the best. Big map, visiting some different locations, secret tombs and more quests with a possiblity of side quests and hunting to make Lara's weapons better - this will make the game longer and more enjoyable. I hope the health system they're describing won't be permanent and Lara won't have to treat her wounds every time she gets injured.

Driber
22nd Mar 2015, 09:12
Yeah, like Rai said, Samsel was pretty much interchangeable. CD could have replaced her with literally a thousand other ditsy party girls :p

Humour? She had none. Just run-of-the mill teenage-girl-like blabber.

For the little we saw of Jonah, he already was a hell of a lot more interesting character than Sam.

I wouldn't mind if we never see Samsel in a TR game again. Keep her appearances to the comics, at best. Preferably locked up in a mental asylum :lol:


Yeah, but it just made him even more unreal ;)

He was way more realistic than Putin, that's for sure :lol:


I see it more like your "no" :tongue2:

What? Errmm... Nah, that really was Lara. She typed in the code for that image when sitting behind my keyboard. Promise!


Oh come on, she's cute :P

What did she do in TR9 that was "cute"? Being a useless 5th wheel? Almost killing the crew by touching things like a 5 year old? Being annoying as hell? Being a bland and forgettable character? :whistle:


A bit clumsy too :P

A bit?! lmao


She was a great addition to the game and I can't imagine Tomb Raider without her anymore. Can't help it :tongue2:

"Tomb Raider" as in the 19 year old franchise? You can't imagine that without Sam? Holy crap.

I think this says more about you than it does about Samsel :p

IvanaKC
22nd Mar 2015, 11:31
No...

http://driber.net/os/maximum-brofist.jpg

:D



Judging by your recent posts, I had no idea you were that much against Sam. Also, you made my morning with that brofist!




No, not because he's a good soul ;) He just... "was there". Don't get me wrong, I adore him, but I'd rather see Reyes and Sam more. Reyes is sarcastig, Sam is funny ;)


He was better moral support to Lara than any of them.



Who said I want another character with Lara's skills? Nope, nope, NOPE ;) I simply would like to see Lara working with someone but not on survival level. Documentary would be great, with some action, but survival part of the game should be focused only on Lara :)

Have you ever watched "Man vs. wild"? All the skills Bear Grills showed he had, the rest of the crew does too. Because you can't follow someone on top of the mountain if you cannot climb. ;)




Oh come on, she's cute :P And funny. A bit clumsy too :P She was a great addition to the game and I can't imagine Tomb Raider without her anymore. Can't help it :tongue2:


Since when is Sam funny? Maybe the fact that she's clumsy, but I don't want that kind of character next to Lara. :hmm:
And great addition? She was held prisoner for half of the game!
TR had so many characters that there's only one it cannot do without and it's Lara.

Tecstar70
22nd Mar 2015, 12:13
I wouldn't mind if we never saw hide nor hair of Sam again, although as Lara's friend there's a chance we will...

I agree, Jonah is a much more interesting character.

d1n0_xD
22nd Mar 2015, 12:14
^ I agree about Sam, there's literally no place for her in the game, she's just that unimportant.

dayoum
22nd Mar 2015, 14:36
Well, you guys just simply don't like Sam, while I do ;) The only character in TR'13 I didn't like was Whitman (too bad I couldn't kill him...).

And who said Sam can't climb? Someone was not reading all of the journals and comics... :whistle:

Yeah, she was a damsel and I don't want her to be like that again (she's not anymore in the new comic arc), but compared to the others, she was alone and without a gun. Johna, Reyes, Alex and Grim were cought too. Well, technically, Grim was able to get out somehow, but the rest of them was not. There were 4 of them and they had weapons. It makes them look even worse than Sam tbh. Only Lara was able to face many enemies alone and live through that.

Bear Grylls is ex-soldier and only Lara and Roth had the skills he has IMO. The rest of the crew didn't have them. Especially Alex, who couldn't even swim, but he died so I guess he doesn't count.

IvanaKC
22nd Mar 2015, 15:24
Well, you guys just simply don't like Sam, while I do ;) The only character in TR'13 I didn't like was Whitman (too bad I couldn't kill him...).

And who said Sam can't climb? Someone was not reading all of the journals and comics... :whistle:

Yeah, she was a damsel and I don't want her to be like that again (she's not anymore in the new comic arc), but compared to the others, she was alone and without a gun. Johna, Reyes, Alex and Grim were cought too. Well, technically, Grim was able to get out somehow, but the rest of them was not. There were 4 of them and they had weapons. It makes them look even worse than Sam tbh. Only Lara was able to face many enemies alone and live through that.

Bear Grylls is ex-soldier and only Lara and Roth had the skills he has IMO. The rest of the crew didn't have them. Especially Alex, who couldn't even swim, but he died so I guess he doesn't count.

Well, I didn't see anyone else being as naive as Sam to make friends with stranger on a freaky island. :whistle:

The rest of them got out and managed not to be caught again, if I remember correctly. Not to mention that anyone who holds prisoners strips them of weapon first. Besides, Jonah gave a bow to Lara, Reyes was in charge of fixing the boat... - they are capable enough. I didn't notice anything when it comes to Sam.

dayoum
22nd Mar 2015, 16:10
Well, I didn't see anyone else being as naive as Sam to make friends with stranger on a freaky island. :whistle:
Lara trusted him enough to fall asleep, leaving Sam alone :whistle:


The rest of them got out and managed not to be caught again, if I remember correctly. Not to mention that anyone who holds prisoners strips them of weapon first. Besides, Jonah gave a bow to Lara, Reyes was in charge of fixing the boat... - they are capable enough. I didn't notice anything when it comes to Sam.
The rest of them had to be saved by Lara. Yes, they did got out on their own, but need I remind you that Sam was able to get out of Shanty Town on her own too? Alone! She even killed a man ;)
Also, I know the original story was supposed to be Mathias getting Sam with a knife on he throat the first time, but I think this time he had to play a little game so she wouldn't wake Lara up - he probably told her he'd kill Lara if she won't go with him silently, so she saved Lara's life (it's a pure speculation, but it does make sense IMO). Then, she was able to calm Reyes down when she snapped at Lara after Roth's death. She was also able to partially convince the others (especially Johna) that what Lara is saying is true. Johna gave Lara a bow, yes. But it was Sam who comforted and mentally/verbally supported Lara every time. I wouldn't call it nothing on unimportant ;)

IvanaKC
22nd Mar 2015, 19:33
Lara trusted him enough to fall asleep, leaving Sam alone :whistle:


Because she trusted Sam and everyone knows better than letting your friend sleep in those situations.




The rest of them had to be saved by Lara. Yes, they did got out on their own, but need I remind you that Sam was able to get out of Shanty Town on her own too? Alone! She even killed a man ;)
Also, I know the original story was supposed to be Mathias getting Sam with a knife on he throat the first time, but I think this time he had to play a little game so she wouldn't wake Lara up - he probably told her he'd kill Lara if she won't go with him silently, so she saved Lara's life (it's a pure speculation, but it does make sense IMO). Then, she was able to calm Reyes down when she snapped at Lara after Roth's death. She was also able to partially convince the others (especially Johna) that what Lara is saying is true. Johna gave Lara a bow, yes. But it was Sam who comforted and mentally/verbally supported Lara every time. I wouldn't call it nothing on unimportant ;)

Come on, that one petty moment when Lara immediately rushed to her help. The whole scene with her in it doesn't last 1 minute. I know how to run away from danger too, you know.
As for how did they manage not wake Lara up, there are many less complicated ways for kidnappers. There are chemicals extracted from local plants that can be inhaled, then there are synthetic stuff like the famous chloroform which is often used on expeditions because it can easily make small animals unconscious (and is toxic to most insects).

So much of memorable Sam's support when all I remember is her in constant need of help. Jonah's two words, "little bird", are way more memorable then anything Sam did. But that's enough of hate towards Sam for one day, it's been done the moment the game came out and pretty much we agreed that she's not important. :p

_______________________________________________________________

Now, for that article...

Bears are back! That's a nice sticking to the roots, IMO. However, again with this QTE crap? That's totally making the player distant from the action. Splattering the screen with all kinds of liquids is not welcome either, I like to see what's going on in given moment.

"(...) Hughes says we can expect acrobatics with a little more bite." - If that means what I think it means, I'm thrilled.

"I don’t want to be mean, but I’ll be happy if we see a greater equalisation of deaths from the environment as in combat." - The best news so far. I really don't remember dying by, say, falling off a cliff in TR2013, but in older TRs, it was such an adrenaline rush when you actually jumped into the thing you thought was climbable and turned out it wasn't... :lol:

"Gallagher explains that with the Xbox ecosystem and community spread across multiple platforms, and Tomb Raider achieving such impressive things towards the end of the console cycle, the studio felt it should at least try to share the vision." - This one caught my eye. It is a bit hypocritical thing to say at the moment. :hmm:

All in all, excitement grew in me after reading this. Especially after seeing all those pics.

AlexWeiss
22nd Mar 2015, 19:50
http://driber.net/os/lara-no.png


Sam was funny? When? Her only contribution to the game was so Lara had motivation, but Lara's main motivation was escaping the island. Without Sam being Samsel, CD would have come up with an alternative, perhaps concentrating on just stopping Himiko. Had CD not bottled out of their original plan to have Lara have to kill Sam in order to stop Himiko, then that would have given Sam a better purpose. To be fair, Rhi has gone some way in redeeming Sam in the comics, except I haven't seen much evidence, up until the preview of issue #14 that is, that Sam was more of a wreck than Lara. I'm fine with seeing Sam in a cutscene, perhaps a flashback. But I'm happy Jonah is accompanying Lara on the exhibition.

As for the actual article, at first I thought some journalist had ripped off the OXM article until someone pointed out it was the same writer, oops :p. So it's nice that the OXM article is now available online for those who didn't see it :).
Both are well said :D

Yeah, I found the article quite boring because I've read all of it before, and at least with the OXM I got a nice magazine layout. Hate that they used the term "exclusive" for click bait practically. Yeah, technically it was exclusive because no other internet source had the info, but it still wasn't exclusive if the info was elsewhere already.

Either way, glad it's more accessible to more people so it's easier to discuss now.

Driber
22nd Mar 2015, 23:03
Judging by your recent posts, I had no idea you were that much against Sam.

Well it's not like I hate her or anything. She's just so... useless. A forgettable character, as you said.


Also, you made my morning with that brofist!

:)


He was better moral support to Lara than any of them.

Damn straight! Plus, he has that cool zen vibe. Completely the opposite of Samsel, lol.


And great addition? She was held prisoner for half of the game!
TR had so many characters that there's only one it cannot do without and it's Lara.

:thumb:


Jonah's two words, "little bird", are way more memorable then anything Sam did.

Too right!


Well, you guys just simply don't like Sam

Gee, what gave it away. lol


The only character in TR'13 I didn't like was Whitman (too bad I couldn't kill him...).

Why's that? I'm curious.


And who said Sam can't climb? Someone was not reading all of the journals and comics... :whistle:

Don't care what's in the comics. What happened in the official game is what counts for me.


Yeah, she was a damsel and I don't want her to be like that again (she's not anymore in the new comic arc)

If I'd care about the comics, my response that would simply be "too late".


but compared to the others, she was alone and without a gun.

More reason why Samsel is just utterly useless - the ditz couldn't even get a hold of a gun on an island freaking full of them :p


Johna, Reyes, Alex and Grim were cought too. Well, technically, Grim was able to get out somehow, but the rest of them was not.

They got caught once during the whole game. They more than made up for that with all the other useful things they did. Samsel, on the other hand...


There were 4 of them and they had weapons. It makes them look even worse than Sam tbh.

Nah. Samsel couldn't even get a gun in the first place.


Only Lara was able to face many enemies alone and live through that.

Well of course. She's the protagonist.


Especially Alex, who couldn't even swim, but he died so I guess he doesn't count.

I'll remember you said this for when Samsel eventually dies :D


Well, I didn't see anyone else being as naive as Sam to make friends with stranger on a freaky island.

Haha only Samsel would look at a total creep like Mathias and go like "Finally, I found a strong man who's nice to me. I'm saved!" :lol:


The rest of them got out and managed not to be caught again, if I remember correctly. Not to mention that anyone who holds prisoners strips them of weapon first. Besides, Jonah gave a bow to Lara, Reyes was in charge of fixing the boat... - they are capable enough. I didn't notice anything when it comes to Sam.

Exactly.


Lara trusted him enough to fall asleep, leaving Sam alone :whistle:

You watch that scene and see a Lara who shouldn't have fallen asleep. I watch that scene and see a Samsel who needs constant freaking babysitting.

I guess Lara should've brought one of these to the island, so she can constantly monitor her useless friend who can't be left alone for a microsecond...

width='400'


Also, I know the original story was supposed to be Mathias getting Sam with a knife on he throat the first time, but I think this time he had to play a little game so she wouldn't wake Lara up - he probably told her he'd kill Lara if she won't go with him silently, so she saved Lara's life (it's a pure speculation, but it does make sense IMO).

If I don't care about the comics, why on earth would I care about personal speculation from a fan :p

But even if your hypothetical was actual game lore, I still wouldn't care how Mathias kidnapped Sam. Knife to throat, chloroform, verbal threats, whatever. She was still useless there. She didn't save anyone's life, she merely complied with her kidnapper. I'd hardly call that being useful.


Then, she was able to calm Reyes down when she snapped at Lara after Roth's death. She was also able to partially convince the others (especially Johna) that what Lara is saying is true. Johna gave Lara a bow, yes. But it was Sam who comforted and mentally/verbally supported Lara every time. I wouldn't call it nothing on unimportant ;)

Oh wow, she gave Lara a few pats on her back. Give the girl a cookie.

No, wait, a burger.

pregvn_l-S.png

dayoum
22nd Mar 2015, 23:30
Don't care what's in the comics. What happened in the official game is what counts for me.
Then you missed their trip to the Kilimanjaro mentioned in the journals ;)


More reason why Samsel is just utterly useless - the ditz couldn't even get a hold of a gun on an island freaking full of them :p
This time you missed a scene where she killed a man ;)


They got caught once during the whole game. They more than made up for that with all the other useful things they did. Samsel, on the other hand...
Yeah... because she could just refuse to go when she was held at the gun point... just like the rest of the crew, when they were cought, right? And when we talk about logic, I'd like to point that Lara could've killed Mathias at least twice. She had a clear shot, she didn't do it, does it makes her idiot, coward or a masochist?


Nah. Samsel couldn't even get a gun in the first place.
Again - you missed a scene where she killed a man ;)


I'll remember you said this for when Samsel eventually dies :D
Just gonna post this here (taken from http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=139596 ):

Keep Samantha (142)
Lara is in a relationship with Samantha. (133)
Lara has a thing for/crush on Samantha or vice versa. (110)

With a little addition:

No more Samantha Nishimura in future games, not even mention her. (25)
Keep Jonah in next game, and give him more helpful in the game by making him part of the combat or so. (18)

And that would be the end of Sam-in-TR topic from my side, since I believe it's not a place to discuss it ;)

Rai
22nd Mar 2015, 23:49
You do realise that the majority of those [Sam/relationship centric] votes came from one post wonders who joined just to vote for Sam (after some peeps were deliberately asking around other sites for the vote to be skewed)? This poll can't be taken so seriously as a conclusive result of what fans actually want from the game. IMO.

You are right though, the thread itself is for the article discussion and we've gone off topic a tad :p.

Driber
23rd Mar 2015, 00:16
Then you missed their trip to the Kilimanjaro mentioned in the journals ;)

I wasn't commenting on the climbing part, just that I don't care about the comics in general.


Just gonna post this here (taken from http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=139596 ):

Keep Samantha (142)
Lara is in a relationship with Samantha. (133)
Lara has a thing for/crush on Samantha or vice versa. (110)

With a little addition:

No more Samantha Nishimura in future games, not even mention her. (25)
Keep Jonah in next game, and give him more helpful in the game by making him part of the combat or so. (18)

Ugh, not this again.

Those numbers mean diddly-squad. The ones regarding Sam are so relatively high because the poll has received a massive amount of agenda pushing from outside. Some people were actively going around on other big websites spamming members via PM, linking to the wishlist thread and telling people to vote specially for those first 3 wishes.

So you're basically boasting that Bush won the 2004 elections :rasp:

WinterSoldierLTE
23rd Mar 2015, 00:24
So you're basically boasting that Bush won the 2004 elections :rasp:

2001.

Driber
23rd Mar 2015, 00:38
2001.

Ah right, that's the one I was thinking of, yeah. Cheers :)

dayoum
23rd Mar 2015, 02:07
The majority of the votes to keep Sam was indeed from people with less than 50 posts (21 people with 50+ posts voted to Keep Sam). But also the majority of those against Sam are with less than 50 posts (8 people with 50+ posts voted against her). So still more people want Sam to stay in the game ;)

And this really is Sam-related-EOT from my side ;)

Wonder if we'll get better trailer on E3 this year (if Rise will be there, of course), with some gameplay. Kind of like a "Survivor" for TR'13. for Would be nice.

Driber
23rd Mar 2015, 21:17
The majority of the votes to keep Sam was indeed from people with less than 50 posts (21 people with 50+ posts voted to Keep Sam).

And loads of them from people with just 1 single post (the wishlist post), only to never hear from them again :whistle:


But also the majority of those against Sam are with less than 50 posts (8 people with 50+ posts voted against her). So still more people want Sam to stay in the game ;)

No, I don't think that is a correct conclusion to try to draw from those numbers, because the way I see it only people who are really hating Sam would be voting for these so-called anti-wishes. Surely a lot of people merely dislike her, but not enough to really campaign against her appearance in the sequels. Or simply not care for her as a character. Or just being indifferent. It's not right to try to lump all those people in with the "pro-Sam" camp. That's really dishonest.


Can't say I'm surprised, though, this coming from you. You're constantly trying to spin whatever numbers you can find in favor of your POV, whatever we are discussing :p


And this really is Sam-related-EOT from my side ;)

Are you sure? That's the second time you've claimed this now :rasp:

Tihocan
23rd Mar 2015, 23:06
I'm going to disagree with Sam being "useless". If she's the definition of it, then half my friends are useless - and I'm going to bet half the people on this forum are "useless"... :whistle:

Being captured repeatedly? Of course she was. She's a target, a prize, and a non-combatant. She unfortunately gives people the benefit of the doubt, and has a "sheltered" background.
Reyes, ex-cop. Jonah, ex-soldier. Roth and Grim, old sea dogs with a rough background. They're different people.

At the end of the day, she's Lara's best friend. From what I gather she pulled Lara out of an anti-social shell, and is loyal and positive.

Driber
24th Mar 2015, 01:00
I'm going to disagree with Sam being "useless". If she's the definition of it, then half my friends are useless - and I'm going to bet half the people on this forum are "useless"... :whistle:

Not really relevant, IMO. Sam is a fictional character. I judge characters different than I do real people.


Being captured repeatedly? Of course she was. She's a target, a prize, and a non-combatant. She unfortunately gives people the benefit of the doubt, and has a "sheltered" background.
Reyes, ex-cop. Jonah, ex-soldier. Roth and Grim, old sea dogs with a rough background. They're different people.

Giving explanations for why Sam is useless doesn't make her any less useless.

Yes, Reyes, Jonah, Roth and Grim are different in character, which is why I don't call them useless. (Reyes I actually call something worse than useless :whistle:)


At the end of the day, she's Lara's best friend. From what I gather she pulled Lara out of an anti-social shell, and is loyal and positive.

You can be useless in certain scenarios and still be someone's best friend. You can be positive and still be useless in certain scenarios.

Tihocan
24th Mar 2015, 03:01
Not really relevant, IMO. Sam is a fictional character. I judge characters different than I do real people.
Huh? That's a cop out.
Ok, fine. Sam's part in this story is she's the nuclear launch codes. Not so useless now.


Giving explanations for why Sam is useless doesn't make her any less useless.

Yes, Reyes, Jonah, Roth and Grim are different in character, which is why I don't call them useless. (Reyes I actually call something worse than useless :whistle:)

Useless in combat does not mean useless. She had her part.
What would you call Reyes? Counter-productive?


You can be useless in certain scenarios and still be someone's best friend. You can be positive and still be useless in certain scenarios.
Yeah, but that's not what you said. If she were "forgettable", we'd have not bothered to have this conversation. Grim and Alex were "forgettable" - I barely see them mentioned at all.

IvanaKC
24th Mar 2015, 13:08
I'm going to disagree with Sam being "useless". If she's the definition of it, then half my friends are useless - and I'm going to bet half the people on this forum are "useless"... :whistle:

Being captured repeatedly? Of course she was. She's a target, a prize, and a non-combatant. She unfortunately gives people the benefit of the doubt, and has a "sheltered" background.
Reyes, ex-cop. Jonah, ex-soldier. Roth and Grim, old sea dogs with a rough background. They're different people.

At the end of the day, she's Lara's best friend. From what I gather she pulled Lara out of an anti-social shell, and is loyal and positive.

This is the only game Lara isn't driven by her curiosity and desire to discover, so Sam is just there so the whole scenario would make sense - riiiiight, she isn't useless. :hmm: It's called bad character writing.




Yeah, but that's not what you said. If she were "forgettable", we'd have not bothered to have this conversation. Grim and Alex were "forgettable" - I barely see them mentioned at all.

I immediately remember how Grim was quite protective and heroic "sea wolf", while Alex was a geek and he sacrificed himself for Lara. There's no point in mentioning them since there's no need to break your brain about what they did - it's easy to remember their parts. I tend to forget, however, what Sam did, if she did anything at all...

Oh, and whatever happened in comics, I don't count as important because there were debates whether some stuff are official or not. What happened in game is what counts.

Blacktron
24th Mar 2015, 16:29
Once again, mixed feelings. It seems like it will be a competently made tiple A title, but there's nothing yet that makes me even a little excited for it...


involves a very angry bear. Having already dined on a Trinity patrol – Lara hears their screams over her radio –
Boom. There goes any chance that Trinity would have had to be a fearsome intimidating enemy - when they got their asses handed to them by Teddy Ruxpin.

dark7angel
24th Mar 2015, 21:10
Sam is the MacGuffin, a plot device and nothing more. You could replace her with an artifact and you would barely notice the difference... actually, it would be better if she had been replaced by an artifact, at least that way my ears could have been spared of the endless screams for SAMMMMM!!!! LARAAAAAAA!!! SAMMMMM!!! God! Just remembering it makes me cringe...

Driber
24th Mar 2015, 21:18
Huh? That's a cop out.

No it's reality. Society judges fictional characters on a different level than they do real people.


Ok, fine. Sam's part in this story is she's the nuclear launch codes. Not so useless now.

Sorry I don't do make-believe.


Useless in combat does not mean useless. She had her part.

Yeah, as damsel.


What would you call Reyes? Counter-productive?

Something that would get censored here.


Yeah, but that's not what you said. If she were "forgettable", we'd have not bothered to have this conversation. Grim and Alex were "forgettable" - I barely see them mentioned at all.

I'm willing to grand that Samsel was useful for the player as an easy damsel in distress plot device to tie Lara's story together. Apart from that, as a character, she was completely useless in the game.


I immediately remember how Grim was quite protective and heroic "sea wolf", while Alex was a geek and he sacrificed himself for Lara.

Alex was next to useless, too. He was basically the male Samsel, lol.

But Grim I liked. He at least had some character. I felt bad when he died. Alex... not at all. Damn, now that I think about it, wouldn't it have been cool if Alex and Sam died together in the game? Both blown to pieces together in that explosion :D


What happened in game is what counts.

:thumb:


Boom. There goes any chance that Trinity would have had to be a fearsome intimidating enemy - when they got their asses handed to them by Teddy Ruxpin.

Great, now I pictured a violently aggressive Teddy Ruxpin. Thanks for ruining my childhood, LMAO.


Sam is the MacGuffin, a plot device and nothing more. You could replace her with an artifact and you would barely notice the difference... actually, it would be better if she had been replaced by an artifact, at least that way my ears could have been spared of the endless screams for SAMMMMM!!!! LARAAAAAAA!!! SAMMMMM!!! God! Just remembering it makes me cringe...

Too right! :lol:

Tihocan
24th Mar 2015, 23:03
No it's reality. Society judges fictional characters on a different level than they do real people.

I disagree. Otherwise, one couldn't call Lara a murderer. :whistle:
You create a human-like character, it's judged based on the experience of the reader. True, there is some leeway in what is "acceptable", but that's only because the disconnect with society's fear of non-conformance.

You're basically saying that any character that does not directly assist the player is "useless". Sure, she's a Samsel, but so is Princess Peach.


Sorry I don't do make-believe.
*shrugs* then why are we here, discussing anything? It's a simile - without her there's little plot other than "Escape from LA".


Something that would get censored here.
I think that's overly judgemental. Whitman, perhaps, but not Reyes.


I'm willing to grand that Samsel was useful for the player as an easy damsel in distress plot device to tie Lara's story together. Apart from that, as a character, she was completely useless in the game.
So, why is Sam any different to the Scion, then?


Alex was next to useless, too. He was basically the male Samsel, lol.

But Grim I liked. He at least had some character. I felt bad when he died. Alex... not at all. Damn, now that I think about it, wouldn't it have been cool if Alex and Sam died together in the game? Both blown to pieces together in that explosion :D

So, you think someone that allowed himself to die so that another can live, is useless?

Oh, that's right - we judge fictional characters differently to those in real life. :rolleyes:

Rai
25th Mar 2015, 00:09
Sam is the MacGuffin, a plot device and nothing more. You could replace her with an artifact and you would barely notice the difference... actually, it would be better if she had been replaced by an artifact, at least that way my ears could have been spared of the endless screams for SAMMMMM!!!! LARAAAAAAA!!! SAMMMMM!!! God! Just remembering it makes me cringe...

Yeah, this pretty much reiterates what I was saying earlier, Sam could have been replaced by an artefact and the only way we'd have noticed was in the lack of name yelling :p.







So, why is Sam any different to the Scion, then?




She isn't. That's basically the point being made. CD could have had an alternative, say an artefact needed to perform a resurrection ritual using a special artefact, one once belonging to Himiko but lost. Perhaps Lara's pendant and Mathias recognises it, Lara meets him, falls into an exhausted sleep and he steels it. There could even be a way for Whitman to steel it back after Lara initially finds it. Or it could be something else. Some scenes would need to be different or cut, like the fire ritual or any suggestion of female sacrifice on the island unless it was left in to show the lengths Matthias went to to appease Himiko. Point is Sam's role was primarily as damsel or object to be stolen and retrieved.

Actually, having an artefact would have given us a glimpse of raiding, something that Lara shows an interest in but doesn't realize it's significance and doesn't yet feel the need to keep or isn't actively seeking for her own magpie tendancies.

Tihocan
25th Mar 2015, 03:24
Yeah, this pretty much reiterates what I was saying earlier, Sam could have been replaced by an artefact and the only way we'd have noticed was in the lack of name yelling :p.
Sure, but it would be a different story, and there wouldn't be a Sam to notice missing. You could also remove Roth entirely and have Jonah providing motivation and sniper fire, but Rhi didn't.


She isn't. That's basically the point being made. CD could have had an alternative, say an artefact needed to perform a resurrection ritual using a special artefact, one once belonging to Himiko but lost. Perhaps Lara's pendant and Mathias recognises it, Lara meets him, falls into an exhausted sleep and he steels it. There could even be a way for Whitman to steel it back after Lara initially finds it. Or it could be something else. Some scenes would need to be different or cut, like the fire ritual or any suggestion of female sacrifice on the island unless it was left in to show the lengths Matthias went to to appease Himiko. Point is Sam's role was primarily as damsel or object to be stolen and retrieved.

Actually, having an artefact would have given us a glimpse of raiding, something that Lara shows an interest in but doesn't realize it's significance and doesn't yet feel the need to keep or isn't actively seeking for her own magpie tendancies.
Isn't it always an artefact, though? Rhianna could have used an artefact, but then people would complain it's "the ol' super artefact-of-global-death story again".
One could argue she could have "redeemed" herself, but Alex did that and nobody cares about him either. Remind me what Jonah's "point" is, other than token tribal guy who can shoot?

Hell, why don't we just remove everyone from the game who doesn't have a "point" - we'd be left with Lara vs the enemy and a story which is basically a thin reason to have Lara "murder" an island of men.

Driber
25th Mar 2015, 13:49
I disagree. Otherwise, one couldn't call Lara a murderer. :whistle:

Sure I can.


True, there is some leeway in what is "acceptable", but that's only because the disconnect with society's fear of non-conformance.

I've never been one to fear society's conformity. I actually like going against the grain.


You're basically saying that any character that does not directly assist the player is "useless".

No I'm not.


Sure, she's a Samsel, but so is Princess Peach.

Right, and I'd call Peach useless, too :p


*shrugs* then why are we here, discussing anything?

I'm discussing actual TR9 lore, not what Samsel "could have been" fantasies.


I think that's overly judgemental. Whitman, perhaps, but not Reyes.

You don't know what word I was referring to, so there's no way you can call it "overly judgmental".

And I actually liked Whitman more than Reyes :whistle:


So, why is Sam any different to the Scion, then?

I think dark7angel already answered this before you even asked the question ;)


So, you think someone that allowed himself to die so that another can live, is useless?

No I'm not, but in Alex' case it's not like he had much choice in the matter anyway, he was trapped.


Oh, that's right - we judge fictional characters differently to those in real life. :rolleyes:

Now you're getting it!


Yeah, this pretty much reiterates what I was saying earlier, Sam could have been replaced by an artefact and the only way we'd have noticed was in the lack of name yelling :p.



She isn't. That's basically the point being made. CD could have had an alternative, say an artefact needed to perform a resurrection ritual using a special artefact, one once belonging to Himiko but lost. Perhaps Lara's pendant and Mathias recognises it, Lara meets him, falls into an exhausted sleep and he steels it. There could even be a way for Whitman to steel it back after Lara initially finds it. Or it could be something else. Some scenes would need to be different or cut, like the fire ritual or any suggestion of female sacrifice on the island unless it was left in to show the lengths Matthias went to to appease Himiko. Point is Sam's role was primarily as damsel or object to be stolen and retrieved.

Actually, having an artefact would have given us a glimpse of raiding, something that Lara shows an interest in but doesn't realize it's significance and doesn't yet feel the need to keep or isn't actively seeking for her own magpie tendancies.

This :thumb:


Sure, but it would be a different story, and there wouldn't be a Sam to notice missing. You could also remove Roth entirely and have Jonah providing motivation and sniper fire, but Rhi didn't.

You're just stating the obvious, not countering Rai's point.


Isn't it always an artefact, though? Rhianna could have used an artefact, but then people would complain it's "the ol' super artefact-of-global-death story again".

Perhaps, but that's a completely different debate. It doesn't invalidate Rai's point.


One could argue she could have "redeemed" herself, but Alex did that and nobody cares about him either.

Probably because was a forgettable character, just like Samsel.


Remind me what Jonah's "point" is, other than token tribal guy who can shoot?

If you can call Jonah a token tribal guy, we could just as well call Reyes the token angry black woman, and Vlad the token Russian villain, and Samsel the token ditsy party girl.


Hell, why don't we just remove everyone from the game who doesn't have a "point" - we'd be left with Lara vs the enemy and a story which is basically a thin reason to have Lara "murder" an island of men.

Strawman argument. I'm not advocating that Samsel shouldn't have been in TR9. She played her role.

Tihocan
25th Mar 2015, 14:05
So then - what is the point of this whole discussion? She's useless, but played her role? Totally lost me.

Is it simply that she has no "combat/survival capacity"?