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View Full Version : Keep the "negative" QTE. (aka "stress-free" QTE) for TR10



zackdollars
5th Mar 2015, 16:08
I'm referring to the mechanic for opening crates and doors where Lara's animation evolves from jamming the axe, struggling, and finally thrusting it open. I had never seen anything like this before.

This mechanic was also used at other times, when Lara pulled the arrow from her waist, and when she wrestled a gun away, etc.

I hope to see more of these "negative" QTE's that keep you engaged, and less of the old-school timed button presses for TR10. (Zero traditional QTE's would be even better!)

Lara_Fan_84
5th Mar 2015, 18:05
I agree, it makes it more realistic, because she has to struggle like anyone else would in real life to pry open the doors and chests, etc. I like the added realism.

d1n0_xD
5th Mar 2015, 18:44
I liked that too, some things were harder to open so there was the QTE, but the easier crates she opened with a press of the button. And I do want those finishers back, but like 100+ animations :p

zackdollars
5th Mar 2015, 19:45
I agree, it makes it more realistic, because she has to struggle like anyone else would in real life to pry open the doors and chests, etc. I like the added realism.
Good point about "realism". That's what makes a good video game.


I liked that too, some things were harder to open so there was the QTE, but the easier crates she opened with a press of the button. And I do want those finishers back, but like 100+ animations :p
I would like to see a "stress-free QTE" animation for the easier crates, too.

d1n0_xD
5th Mar 2015, 20:27
I would like to see a "stress-free QTE" animation for the easier crates, too.

Don't you think it would be tiresome to do a QTE every single time? Those crates were all over the place in the reboot.

Error96_
5th Mar 2015, 20:57
I don't mind these kind of QTE as they fit with the actions the character is performing. Is much better these than in many games where you are beating a battle and then get killed for not hitting a random button out of context with the characters typical controls. Something like the scavenger grab was cool though as moving the analogue stick to shake him off felt like it fit with what Lara would do then.

zackdollars
5th Mar 2015, 21:37
Don't you think it would be tiresome to do a QTE every single time? Those crates were all over the place in the reboot.
If it was a different animation, I would not get bored. Maybe Lara could pry the small crates by stepping on the axe, or squatting to pry them open?
The number of crates was not excessive. Besides, you can pry them open quickly if you choose.

IvanaKC
5th Mar 2015, 21:58
Don't you think it would be tiresome to do a QTE every single time? Those crates were all over the place in the reboot.


They could stick with big crates only - we wouldn't get bored by the amount and we would appreciate more everything we find in them.

Gitb97
5th Mar 2015, 22:26
I don't like how many QTE's were in the reboot. I liked them for prying open doors etc, but hated them in a cutscene, especially for Mathias' kill. I get that's their way of bringing the pistols into it, but that would've been cooler in cutscene after a long fight with Mathias as a final boss.
-But it's a little too late to complain about that-
So I hope the team learn from all the reviews and things some of us said on here about not liking QTE's, I like "negative" ones though so I agree with ZackDollars' first post. :p

Rai
6th Mar 2015, 01:40
Like others have said, I didn't mind those QTEs to open doors, crates or to crank open shutters or whatever, as it made it feel that you're actually putting the effort in instead of just pressing x and it's done automatically (which is fine for smaller items). Those type of QTE actually bring the feeling of interactivity.

Tihocan
6th Mar 2015, 02:52
I'm referring to the mechanic for opening crates and doors where Lara's animation evolves from jamming the axe, struggling, and finally thrusting it open. I had never seen anything like this before.
It's been around as long as the timed button presses, I believe. For example - God of War, Shenmue, etc. I'm pretty sure Road Avenger (Sega CD, 1985) had a few in there as well (don't know if it counts, it's a QTE game...)


I hope to see more of these "negative" QTE's
I'd more likely call them "positive QTEs", as they cannot cause your death and there generally is a tangible reward afterwards.

I don't particularly like the ones in cutscenes, as failure generally means "you died, start the whole scene over again". When you've done the same 30 seconds of scene to fail it again for the fourth time, it's horrible.

In battle I don't mind them so much, provided you can recover.

WY9NO4GQJRk

Metalrocks
6th Mar 2015, 04:27
It's been around as long as the timed button presses, I believe. For example - God of War, Shenmue, etc. I'm pretty sure Road Avenger (Sega CD, 1985) had a few in there as well (don't know if it counts, it's a QTE game...)


I'd more likely call them "positive QTEs", as they cannot cause your death and there generally is a tangible reward afterwards.

I don't particularly like the ones in cutscenes, as failure generally means "you died, start the whole scene over again". When you've done the same 30 seconds of scene to fail it again for the fourth time, it's horrible.

In battle I don't mind them so much, provided you can recover.


as much as i hate QTEs, im with you on that. in cutscenes they are just horrific.

zackdollars
6th Mar 2015, 15:57
So I hope the team learn from all the reviews and things some of us said on here about not liking QTE's, I like "negative" ones though so I agree with ZackDollars' first post. :p

It's a rare thing for someone to agree with you on the net. :)




I'd more likely call them "positive QTEs", as they cannot cause your death and there generally is a tangible reward afterwards.


You're right. Although I would like to come up with a better name since I don't think they're QTE's at all. If you have any ideas, let us know.


as much as i hate QTEs, im with you on that. in cutscenes they are just horrific.
I don't understand why developers keep using them. Just give me a cut scene I can enjoy. :mad2:

Gitb97
8th Mar 2015, 02:41
^ A lot of games use them, I tend to get very "oh for gods sake." whenever a QTE comes up :lol:
But that's most likely the reason why they still put them in - to keep up, even though people actually hate QTE's...Crystal love them, Legend was swarming, Anniversary had a QTE in nearly every cutscene, and underworlds doppelganger fight even used one. Tomb Raider isn't the first time Crystal have gone overboard on QTE's, I don't remember Core having any QTE's but maybe that's because i'm so unmotivated to play the classics since I got a new laptop and lost all my gamesaves.

Bridgetkfisher
16th Mar 2015, 16:10
The QTE system used in the last TR game was one of the BEST implementations ever of QTE at the right times outside of the gameplay of RE4. The ending sucked because it felt silly, but the rest of the game it fit very well.

*Would suggest selling a dlc for 1$ that auto succeeds the QTE's for players who dont want them adding a menu option to disable those events. Im sure the programmers can google how to code that in, saints row also has DLC like this to cater to their community, some call it cheats, others call it convenience, so its whatever to whoever.

Tihocan
16th Mar 2015, 22:26
The QTE system used in the last TR game was one of the BEST implementations ever of QTE at the right times outside of the gameplay of RE4. The ending sucked because it felt silly, but the rest of the game it fit very well.
I disagree. Press a button or die is bad for a game that isn't in that style. It's fine for games like Road Avenger, or Heavy Rain, but not action games.


*Would suggest selling a dlc for 1$ that auto succeeds the QTE's for players who dont want them adding a menu option to disable those events.
Interesting suggestion. It would never be accepted on a moral level, because that is "pay to win". Put that in front of someone who cares (reviewers, vocal gamers, etc) and your game will get slammed. Where does it go from there? Pay $5 to finish the level?

WinterSoldierLTE
16th Mar 2015, 22:54
^^^^ That's true.

Look at 'Dead Space 3'. In that you can scavage certain areas of levels for rare parts that get you level 5 parts for your weapons (that are unavailable unless you do the scavaging) when traded at a work bench, or you could go on the online store and just buy those parts for $3.99 or so if you didn't want to take the time ('cos it can be time consuming in some levels). Even tho all you had to do was take maybe 20 minutes on any level to just scavage for a bit people still went ballistic and labeled it as a "pay to win" concept & game. Critics, fans, loads of people. It seems to be a fine line for some people since Farmville, Evony, and whatever other web browser based games are popular nowadays are all pay-to-win. Or even (dare I say it?) Evolve.

Tihocan
17th Mar 2015, 00:41
It seems to be a fine line for some people since Farmville, Evony, and whatever other web browser based games are popular nowadays are all pay-to-win.
I think this is ok - this is the basic premise of these games. Play on your own time, or pay to play on theirs.


I disagree. Press a button or die is bad for a game that isn't in that style.
Let me be a bit more specific. Take the Vlad scene scenario:
Vlad corners Lara
QTE: Lara attacks
- success = continuation of the standard scene (Vlad shoves Lara roughly against the wall, knocks her to the ground)
- failure = Lara is violently attacked by Vlad and knocked to the ground: half life on resume
Lara struggles with Vlad on the ground
QTE: Struggle for the gun
- success = Lara shoot Vlad in the face, takes the gun
- failure = the gun is knocked away: Lara is unarmed on resume, requires having to get to a gun nearby, while under heavy fire

In the above, the player cannot lose, but if they fail the QTE they are heavily burdened in the following scene. If they die in the following scene, they get to replay the failed QTE but then know how to successfully complete it, and are more easily rewarded for doing so. However, if they completed the "good" path already, don't make them do it again.

From a gamer / quality engineer perspective, the question should always be "how does the user feel after getting it wrong ten or fifteen times?".

Metalrocks
17th Mar 2015, 01:01
i gladly pay a dollar to get rid of these stupid QTEs. more worth it than my nerves for constantly staring at one part of the screen when i actually want to enjoy the cut scene. just seeing a symbol i have to figure out first what that it instead of showing the actual button or generally pressing a button no one would press in the first place.

dont know about dead space 3 but in BF3 and 4 you can buy whole packs to unlock all weapons, gear, etc instead of playing the normal way until you have the the required amount of kills or level to unlock them. you can even purchase for each class which arent even too expensive. since i play as the assault soldier, this did come in pretty handy. was able to support my team better than before with the basic stuff that wasnt really good.

@tihocan
you got that vlad scene wrong.
if you fail to press the QTE, lara dies by vlad strangling her. and afterwards lara still dies if failed to press stupid QTE. and then when they fight for the weapon, lara gets shot in the face if you fail.

Tihocan
17th Mar 2015, 01:08
i gladly pay a dollar to get rid of these stupid QTEs. more worth it than my nerves for constantly staring at one part of the screen when i actually want to enjoy the cut scene.
Why should I pay for something that shouldn't happen in the first place?


@tihocan
you got that vlad scene wrong.
if you fail to press the QTE, lara dies by vlad strangling her. and afterwards lara still dies if failed to press stupid QTE. and then when they fight for the weapon, lara gets shot in the face if you fail.
I think you missed the point - the above is a re-imagining of the scene.

Metalrocks
17th Mar 2015, 02:01
Why should I pay for something that shouldn't happen in the first place?


I think you missed the point - the above is a re-imagining of the scene.

of course i rather have none than paying for it. but unfortunately these stupid QTEs are in the game. unless they do it like in resident evil 6 that when you play it on amateur, you dont have to worry about the QTEs. so you can really sit back and enjoy the cutscenes.

a reimagining.
yep, clearly got you wrong there. thanks for clarification.

Tecstar70
17th Mar 2015, 09:18
I never saw TR2013 get slated as much about it's QTE's and cutscenes as The Order 1886 is. Yes people were annoyed by them and did complain, but the rest of the game held them up.

Qy6NHKDh-Mo

Metalrocks
17th Mar 2015, 13:18
lol, saw that video too. joe does nail things down pretty well.
some games are very QTE heavy and therefore deserve the complaints. TR had rather annoying ones that had to be understood first as to how they work but sure not QTE driven.

Tecstar70
18th Mar 2015, 10:21
When talking to potential partners, some asked for heroine Max to be a boy instead. Others wanted the game's pacing broken up by action moments with quick-time events.

But, thankfully, Square Enix did not.

"Several publishers were interested in the game. But some wanted more action, some wanted us to add QTEs.

"Some wanted us to change the gender of Max, the main character. Square Enix was the only publisher that would allow us to let the game be released as it was."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-03-18-publishers-wanted-life-is-stranges-main-character-to-be-a-guy-qtes-added

Driber
18th Mar 2015, 11:41
Let me be a bit more specific. Take the Vlad scene scenario:
Vlad corners Lara
QTE: Lara attacks
- success = continuation of the standard scene (Vlad shoves Lara roughly against the wall, knocks her to the ground)
- failure = Lara is violently attacked by Vlad and knocked to the ground: half life on resume
Lara struggles with Vlad on the ground
QTE: Struggle for the gun
- success = Lara shoot Vlad in the face, takes the gun
- failure = the gun is knocked away: Lara is unarmed on resume, requires having to get to a gun nearby, while under heavy fire

In the above, the player cannot lose, but if they fail the QTE they are heavily burdened in the following scene. If they die in the following scene, they get to replay the failed QTE but then know how to successfully complete it, and are more easily rewarded for doing so. However, if they completed the "good" path already, don't make them do it again.

If you cannot lose a QTE, there's no point in having it in the first place, I'd say. It's an interesting scene you're painting, but kinda weak-sauce IMO. Too much hand-holding for my liking.

The only way I could agree to this if it would somehow be optional, like, your scene playing out on easy difficulty setting, and the real scene playing out on medium/hard.


From a gamer / quality engineer perspective, the question should always be "how does the user feel after getting it wrong ten or fifteen times?".

Frustrated. Happened to me during the parachute scene. I then beat it and moved on with my life.


of course i rather have none than paying for it. but unfortunately these stupid QTEs are in the game.

Yes, but why pay for the option? It could be simply part of the difficulty setting, as I suggested above.


lol, saw that video too. joe does nail things down pretty well.
some games are very QTE heavy and therefore deserve the complaints. TR had rather annoying ones that had to be understood first as to how they work but sure not QTE driven.

I didn't have any problems understanding the QTE's in TR9. They were pretty straight-forward to me. Only thing I had a bit of an issue with was learning the controls of the parachute scene.

Metalrocks
18th Mar 2015, 13:31
its just a general speaking that i would pay. just to indicate how much hated QTEs are. i did read the part of difficulties, like i have remarked with RE6.

and to clarify about understanding the QTEs in TR; usually you press the button immediately when you see it displayed but int TR that was not the case. you had to wait for the outer circle to descend before you could press it. that was confusing at first.
had no issues with the parachute though. managed it several times flying through them without getting hit.

Lara_Fan_84
18th Mar 2015, 17:12
The part that annoyed me a little for the QTE is that you had about a second to press it and you spend a couple of seconds waiting to see which button the game wants you to press. I think it should have been like I think Legend or Anniversary where time slows down a second and you can see which button you have to press and it gives you time to press it.

Driber
18th Mar 2015, 22:36
and to clarify about understanding the QTEs in TR; usually you press the button immediately when you see it displayed but int TR that was not the case. you had to wait for the outer circle to descend before you could press it. that was confusing at first.

That was probably just with the PC version then. I had no issues like that on PS3.


The part that annoyed me a little for the QTE is that you had about a second to press it and you spend a couple of seconds waiting to see which button the game wants you to press. I think it should have been like I think Legend or Anniversary where time slows down a second and you can see which button you have to press and it gives you time to press it.

I'm not sure I understand the difference you're trying to explain, to me those examples sound the same...? :scratch:

Tihocan
19th Mar 2015, 00:53
If you cannot lose a QTE, there's no point in having it in the first place, I'd say. It's an interesting scene you're painting, but kinda weak-sauce IMO. Too much hand-holding for my liking.
It works perfectly in God Of War. You can lose the QTE. You just don't lose the game.


The only way I could agree to this if it would somehow be optional, like, your scene playing out on easy difficulty setting, and the real scene playing out on medium/hard.
And remove elements of gameplay, as the designer wanted, because people aren't confident with their killability?


Frustrated. Happened to me during the parachute scene. I then beat it and moved on with my life.
Annoyed? Bored with seeing the same scene 10 times? Happy to (as a reviewer) punish the game for a pointless exercise?

Also - was the parachute scene a QTE? That's a fine line, yeah?

Metalrocks
19th Mar 2015, 01:37
That was probably just with the PC version then. I had no issues like that on PS3.



thought that would be the same for every platform. so how is it then on the ps3? you just press the button once its displayed? cant remember seeing this in playthroughs on youtube. and it wasnt the pc version.

d1n0_xD
19th Mar 2015, 07:39
I like the 'lose the QTE but don't lose the game' idea. I mean, if QTEs need to happen, I want them like that. Maybe a QTE will kill an enemy faster, but if you miss, well damn, you'll just have to unload a couple of magazines in them :p

IvanaKC
20th Mar 2015, 10:03
I like the 'lose the QTE but don't lose the game' idea. I mean, if QTEs need to happen, I want them like that. Maybe a QTE will kill an enemy faster, but if you miss, well damn, you'll just have to unload a couple of magazines in them :p

Sorta reminded me of TRA T-Rex fight. You could play by the concept of making it angry and then go into slow-motion to hit him precisely in the eye or you could just shoot and jump until it's over.

Lara_Fan_84
23rd Mar 2015, 23:15
That was probably just with the PC version then. I had no issues like that on PS3.



I'm not sure I understand the difference you're trying to explain, to me those examples sound the same...? :scratch:


Oops yeah they do. I mean in Legend or anniversary you had a bit longer for the button you had to press to come up in slow motion and in the most recent TR game you had had time slowing down only a second to press the button. You had more time in the previous games in other words.

Driber
24th Mar 2015, 01:18
It works perfectly in God Of War. You can lose the QTE. You just don't lose the game.

Not familiar with the QTE's in that game.


And remove elements of gameplay, as the designer wanted, because people aren't confident with their killability?

Absolutely. Choices FTW.

Forget QTE's, we need an option to disable those bleeding helper icons, despite what the dev envisions :mad:


Annoyed? Bored with seeing the same scene 10 times? Happy to (as a reviewer) punish the game for a pointless exercise?

Annoyed basically falls under frustrated. So does bored.

Not sure what you mean with that last sentence.


Also - was the parachute scene a QTE? That's a fine line, yeah?

It played pretty much like a QTE. Player is whisked away into a fast paced scene where you quickly have to press just the right buttons, which you are forced to learn at the spot.


thought that would be the same for every platform. so how is it then on the ps3? you just press the button once its displayed? cant remember seeing this in playthroughs on youtube. and it wasnt the pc version.

It's been a while since I played the game, but yeah, pretty sure it was just pressing buttons like your standard QTE. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


I like the 'lose the QTE but don't lose the game' idea. I mean, if QTEs need to happen, I want them like that. Maybe a QTE will kill an enemy faster, but if you miss, well damn, you'll just have to unload a couple of magazines in them :p

I have to say this does sounds intriguing.


Oops yeah they do. I mean in Legend or anniversary you had a bit longer for the button you had to press to come up in slow motion and in the most recent TR game you had had time slowing down only a second to press the button. You had more time in the previous games in other words.

Ah right :)

Tihocan
24th Mar 2015, 02:47
Not familiar with the QTE's in that game.
Simply, they are the "fatality" moves that are required after wearing down an opponent. I think the Endurance Boss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxgISec-LJI) battle is similar. That kind of QTE I don't mind, though it could be replaced with a cut-effect if the player times the attack just right...


Forget QTE's, we need an option to disable those bleeding helper icons, despite what the dev envisions :mad:
Heh, can't argue with that. That's what survival instinct is for, yeah?


Not sure what you mean with that last sentence.
Tell the same joke three times in a row and someone will tell you it's not funny. Make someone watch the same cut-scene ten times and they'll write in their review it's not fun. That's assuming the dev cares about reviews, I guess :)


It played pretty much like a QTE. Player is whisked away into a fast paced scene where you quickly have to press just the right buttons, which you are forced to learn at the spot.
I see. It's close, but at least the button means something...

As a side note, I don't think the QTE timer indication was obvious enough. From memory, it wasn't "press this before the timer runs out" it was "press it when these two weird circles converge" or something. I think I died a couple of times because I didn't understand it.

QTE's are a funny beast. People love to hate them, but then criticise them when they don't do anything on failure (despite a nice success bonus). Some guy went and made a youtube video that basically complained about the 70% "no op" for Air Assault's QTEs...

Driber
24th Mar 2015, 23:00
Heh, can't argue with that. That's what survival instinct is for, yeah?

Bloody hell yeah, it should have been. There's no place for compulsory hand-holding in hard difficulty mode. None, nada, zip, squat, nil, zilch, zero, niente.

Charlie_T_Raider
28th Mar 2015, 12:30
In many of the games I play recenly hard mode mean most of the game has a few more enemies but little real difference and then QTE's that have a stupidly shorter window. If the QTE reaction time tests become the hardest bit of the game by miles I don't like that. Hearing that CD will use less QTE and more logical choices of what bouttons to press during them will be better than you miss a random button press you lose.

Bridgetkfisher
31st Mar 2015, 08:42
Yes, but why pay for the option? It could be simply part of the difficulty setting, as I suggested above.


Square Enix in Thief had a GREAT menu for choosing a game mode with varying types of difficulty. While most gamers just found Theif's difficulty system confusing and skipped it, it would be nice to have an option to turn on or off QTE's for fans who feel it breaks immersion for them in the game. For some of us the QTE's in TR2013 were AMAZING with good implementation at key points. Though many didnt like the QTE's not just in TR2013 but every game so they never will like them.

Maybe a good option would be like Bioshock 1 which had an option to disable the respawning at vita chambers. A simple menu option QTE's on or off with an achevo tied to them would provide a reward and incentive to accept the challenge while providing other users an option to turn them off so they get the most out of their gaming experience?

AlexWeiss
31st Mar 2015, 18:08
Square Enix in Thief had a GREAT menu for choosing a game mode with varying types of difficulty. While most gamers just found Theif's difficulty system confusing and skipped it, it would be nice to have an option to turn on or off QTE's for fans who feel it breaks immersion for them in the game. For some of us the QTE's in TR2013 were AMAZING with good implementation at key points. Though many didnt like the QTE's not just in TR2013 but every game so they never will like them.

Maybe a good option would be like Bioshock 1 which had an option to disable the respawning at vita chambers. A simple menu option QTE's on or off with an achevo tied to them would provide a reward and incentive to accept the challenge while providing other users an option to turn them off so they get the most out of their gaming experience?

The thing is, if you can just turn off the QTE's and play the game that way, there would be no point in wasting time or resources implementing them into the game anyway for they'd have found a way for the player to proceed further in the game without any need for their QTE system.

Driber
31st Mar 2015, 23:18
Square Enix in Thief had a GREAT menu for choosing a game mode with varying types of difficulty. While most gamers just found Theif's difficulty system confusing and skipped it, it would be nice to have an option to turn on or off QTE's for fans who feel it breaks immersion for them in the game. For some of us the QTE's in TR2013 were AMAZING with good implementation at key points. Though many didnt like the QTE's not just in TR2013 but every game so they never will like them.

Maybe a good option would be like Bioshock 1 which had an option to disable the respawning at vita chambers. A simple menu option QTE's on or off with an achevo tied to them would provide a reward and incentive to accept the challenge while providing other users an option to turn them off so they get the most out of their gaming experience?

Sounds interesting. But how did the player then get through those QTE scenes while having them disabled? Just a missing cutscene? Or it played "automatically" or something?


The thing is, if you can just turn off the QTE's and play the game that way, there would be no point in wasting time or resources implementing them into the game anyway for they'd have found a way for the player to proceed further in the game without any need for their QTE system.

Well to be fair, that argument can be made for every single optional feature.

"Why waste time developing different difficulty modes if a lot of people will just play with the default setting?"

"Why waste time programming a shaky cam and camera water splash effects if people can just turn them off?"

I don't think that's a good reason to not give players a choice.

Manx_a_million
5th May 2015, 16:14
I didn't mind the QTE's of this TR or past ones. In the resi series the QTE's are just so annoying with button mashing so you either get killed or get repetitive strain injury or usually both. Thank goodness TR not have button mashing QTE. I prefer it when the QTE has some connection with the game than press A now and you think why as it not fit with rest of controls.

Chaugmar
6th May 2015, 14:37
The QTE's for opening boxes were well implemented and even with the parachute at least it was easy to pick up. I didn't like the endurance brute one when you had to press at the right time of he just wiped you out after a long normal combat battle.