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Insulation
3rd Mar 2015, 18:48
I can agree that they were overpowered before, but the nerf was just excess and pretty much trashed the class. To the point where I regret spending my class token on it at the moment. So, going to discuss what I think was wrong about the patch so it doesn't seem like another useless complaint thread :rolleyes:

1) Hitbox Reduction
This is the number one problem I have with the nerf, so I listed it first. I don't think it made any sense at all.. Vanguard is not easy to aim. You have to lead, you have a delay before he actually throws which screws up your timing, and you have a weapon that travels slower. There was no reason to make this harder in my opinion.

2) Weapon Nerf
Okay, before you think "it needed to be nerfed" give me just a moment to explain. When Vanguard was released, there was one HUGE issue that made their weapon damage seem way too high; you could use the glitch/bug to remove the delay on axe throwing (so it seemed like they were mowing you down like a machine gun).

I personally think they should have first removed that glitch, then checked if people were still complaining about the damage. I don't believe it's necessary to go into each axe nerf, but I will say that even considering to nerf anything except Impaler was excess.

On a slightly irrelevant note, I also don't know why the shield block amount was reduced. People mostly complained about the damage.

BallzAndBagz
3rd Mar 2015, 19:04
I completely agree with the points made by the OP. I also think that Vanguard has been nerfed far to hard. Humans needed a tank and now the tank is not up to the job. I completely agree with fixing the speedy axe trick. I think the other nerfs were unneeded except for the Rousing Cry. I do not think stacking should have been completely removed; it should have suffered a penalty. Stacking is a perfectly legitimate tactic. Does this now mean that Reavers 'Choking Haze' is not allowed to stack, or what about the game I had recently where the opposing team used 4 Sentinels. One would kidnap you, literally as soon as you were dropped another one would pick you. They rinsed and repeated this over and over again completely raping our team. Does this now mean that this tactic is going to get nerfed???

Seriously please reconsider the changes to Vanguard. His tanking was a badly needed addition to the human race.

Equanimityjohn
3rd Mar 2015, 19:05
Hitbox reduction does seem a tad unnecessary when mixed with the damage nerfs. Though, maybe the hitboxes really were stupidly big, I've seen some things but never experienced them myself. The axes may have seemed easy to land to some people (myself included) at times but at the same time they're just as easy to miss. They are not a consistent weapon, even for very good players. This does really feel like overkill on paper. I know people were **** about being hit by axes while on roofs, but if I see someone's head poking over I should be able to throw an axe with drop to hit them in the face. I'll have to play with this more to have a thorough opinion, maybe it's fine. I like that the class takes even more skill now.

Damage nerfs definitely felt excessive. A big part of the problem, as OP mentioned, was that a lot of people were exploiting the spamming of axes with the block glitch. This made people playing against these glitchers feel like the damage on something like the Kama is OP, when really it wasn't. The Impaler Axe certainly needed a nerf, yes. The splitter axe is pretty garbage and you still felt compelled to nerf it? This speaks towards the extent of these nerfs in general, maybe a tad over the top but we will see with time. The fact that a non-hitscan weapon has comparable damage to hitscan weapons like the scout's bows seems pretty silly, but maybe with time a proper balance can be found. Maybe this is balanced simply due to the utility and power of the Vanguard and his kit. I think the real problem with the damage of the axes is people don't know they're being hit because the hit sound is practically nonexistent, so they're always going to be surprised when damaged.

Shield block amount reduction makes sense in a perfect world where teammates help you AS SOON as you're under attack. However the majority of people are oblivious and most likely staring off at distant roofs and/or out of line of sight. I could see the applications and need for this slight nerf in higher level play, maybe...

The rousing cry nerf seems alright. The skill is quite powerful and needed limitations. That being said, WE NEED ALTERNATIVES!

Alas, there was a hidden yet very significant nerf to Vanguard as well: "Shield Bash damage reduced to 250 (was 275)"
This may seem insignificant, but what this means is that Shield Bash can no longer kill Summoner (small) minions in one shot, which is quite a big deal for Vanguard and for Summoner alike. I think this is a good change, but it certainly should've made it in the patch notes. It allows for more counterplay against Vanguards. I'm not sure how substantial this will be, as I'm used to just one shotting the (small) minions with a war axe and using Shield Charge myself, but I can see it being frustrating. If playing against a stack of Summoners, Vanguard will almost never stand a chance without an alchemist supporting him, but I suppose that is how it should be. The annoying part, though, is if a Summoner is on you and their minions are on you too then there is no easy way to clear the minions so you can start damaging the Summoner, though the same is true of Scout, besides using a big cooldown like Volley. That being said, the capability to do what I mention, to clear minions easily, is fitting for the tank roll of Vanguard. Further, this further decreased the appeal of using Shield Bash, as I find it's far better to have a Shield Charge handy most of the time anyway.

BallzAndBagz
3rd Mar 2015, 19:10
Hitbox reduction does seem a tad unnecessary. The axes may have seemed easy to land to some people (myself included) at times but at the same time they're just as easy to miss. They are not a consistent weapon, even for very good players. This does really feel like overkill on paper. I know people were **** about being hit by axes while on roofs, but if I see someone's head poking over I should be able to throw an axe with drop to hit them in the face.

Agreed. Surprising about people crying because an axe can hit them on a roof; correct me if I am wrong but the axes clear arch slightly!

P.S . For the benefit of Square Enix I would also like to make a point! My spend on Nosgoth to date is £59.97. I am so annoyed about the Vanguard nerf that in protest I refuse to spend another penny on this game until the Vanguard is re-balanced again more favorably.

Just to put my spending into perspective I have been playing Vindictus for 4 years and the spend on that account is almost £4000.

Ygdrasel
3rd Mar 2015, 19:29
They rinsed and repeated this over and over again completely raping our team.

Sentinels rape people now?

Damn. Must've missed that patch.

ApollosBow
3rd Mar 2015, 19:33
No he wasn't......the the hitbox on his axe was far to big, giving him far to much accuracy especially in rooftop checks, even with a bad throw and the damage was out of control combined with that.

I didn't see to many people using the rate of fire glitch, but I still seen that the Vanguard player was MVP every time. Patch has returned the game to normal and made the Vanguard need a bit more skill to play effectively.


Reavers 'Choking Haze' is not allowed to stack, or what about the game I had recently where the opposing team used 4 Sentinels. One would kidnap you, literally as soon as you were dropped another one would pick you. They rinsed and repeated this over and over again completely raping our team. Does this now mean that this tactic is going to get nerfed?
Seriously please reconsider the changes to Vanguard. His tanking was a badly needed addition to the human race.

The stacking your referencing sounds like good team coordination, rousing cry simply need everyone to stay within 10 feet of one another, and the Vanguard shield defense and knockdown abilities still make him a very viable tank.

ApollosBow
3rd Mar 2015, 19:43
P.S . For the benefit of Square Enix I would also like to make a point! My spend on Nosgoth to date is £59.97. I am so annoyed about the Vanguard nerf that in protest I refuse to spend another penny on this game until the Vanguard is re-balanced again more favorably.

Just to put my spending into perspective I have been playing Vindictus for 4 years and the spend on that account is almost £4000.

DEVS........You hear that? better do what this guy says, hes a big spender!!!...............4000 over 4 years woah! Square Enix & Psyonix phones are ringing off the wall right now Im sure.....(also if serious about 4000, seek help)

kLauE187
3rd Mar 2015, 20:02
vanguard is pretty much in a good state now. completely fine with the hitbox reduction because it was ridiculous easy to hit axes before.

--Ram--
3rd Mar 2015, 20:03
My games playing vanguard since patch felt fine. Still topped damage, still dominated. Had no issue landing axes while leading etc etc. He is still strong, just less of an instant win button. All the nerfs were warranted, everything that got nerfed is still good, just not outrageously so. They did a good job.

Cristari
3rd Mar 2015, 22:58
All in I like the Vanguard as it is now however I would have to agree on the weapon side of things there was no need to nerf the other weapons just the Impaler Axe. I got a Kama MI today and decided to play with it. OMG what a rubbish weapon now there is a MI I will never level up!

I will say this after more play I would like the shield un-nerfed could use more stopping power IMO Reavers, Sentinels and Deceivers cut through the shield way too quickly. Also Leap and Pounce are stopped by the shield but Kidnap and Abduct aren't?

Sarhaed
3rd Mar 2015, 23:04
I first came here to complain about the Vanguard in the feedback topic. But I have to say this nerf is really well made.

The Vanguard is still useful (a good Vanguard is a true miracle in a team of humans, and they are still in good position in the scoreboards) but it needs skill to master. And it's all we were asking for.

Well done Psyonix. Just, well done.

Gugulug5000
4th Mar 2015, 00:04
I think the Vanguard is in a pretty good place now (damage wise at least). I would tweak it a little more though. I think the hitbox for the axes got nerfed a little too much, somewhere between where it is now and where it was before would be best in my opinion. Blocking seems to absorb a little too much damage. Some moves I can understand being mostly blocked (backstab from the front, puncture, charged melee) but other things (like Tyrant charge, choking haze, and hellstrike) shouldn't be able to be blocked just by raising your shield.

maddpadd
4th Mar 2015, 00:04
Sentinels rape people now?

Damn. Must've missed that patch.

New ability where they grab you & wrap their wings around you & make love to you without your permission
Its called the mile high club :rolleyes:

Ghosthree3
4th Mar 2015, 00:13
Hitbox reduction was the change I was most excited for before, it was SO easy to hit those axes it was ridiculous. It was borderline impossible to NOT be hit. Game might actually be fun again now.

PollyEsther
4th Mar 2015, 00:29
New ability where they grab you & wrap their wings around you & make love to you without your permission
Its called the mile high club :rolleyes:

while whispering sweet nothings into your ear.

Ready for the fall of mankind? <3

JoeMama2
4th Mar 2015, 01:08
I too think the Vanguard was nerfed a bit too hard. :(

riccetto80
4th Mar 2015, 01:52
Hitbox reduction was the change I was most excited for before, it was SO easy to hit those axes it was ridiculous. It was borderline impossible to NOT be hit. Game might actually be fun again now.

*

i can play and kill with vanguard, not easy as before, but now is more balanced and to do something you must know what you are doing, not just shoot axes continuously because anyway is so easy to hit somebody so why dont shoot without stop? and heal yourself in the meantime, as was before nerf.

totally like this march 3 patch, the game is not fun as before 25 february patch, but is again playlable.

SirRudyMan
4th Mar 2015, 11:25
Even after the March 3rd update I think the Vanguard is still OP, here's why:

1. The throwing axe (any) does still do too much damage. I can barely walk around without getting killed by only a few axe hits.

2. Even though you can't stack it anymore, Rousing Cry does too much healing. Make it 1%, or better replace it with a defense buff. The Vanguard class shouldn't have healing anyway, leave it to the Alchemist and Prophet.

3. A Tyrant with 400 hp left shouldn't be instant killed by Judgement. Make the threshold 15% instead of 30%. Or remove execute and replace it with a higher damage.

4. You can barely hear or see when you're hit with an axe. Make the traveling sound of an axe louder and show an animation on impact (without stopping the vampire's movement/attack).

Persiphas
4th Mar 2015, 12:04
I think the changes are good, but the hitbox nerf was too hard and should not have been 25%. I see vampires just stepping to the side with a CLICK on A or D to avoid axes now. Also, Reavers are a pain in the ass to hit because of their wobbling hitbox. imo ~15% would have been ok. As it is now, vanguard needs quite the skill and effort compared to other classes. Only thing I still hope for is a sound on axe impact, most people complain because they get 3 axes to their face before even realizing that there is a vanguard hitting them. Heal stacking nerf was needed and I really love the change, it does not need further adjustment because it would make the skill useless. The damage output is well balanced atm, an attack that requires skill to hit should not do less damage than a no-brainer. I am still unsure about the shield block change to 700 damage absorb, because the vanguard now needs a moment after block to throw his weapon again. Also, I experienced the block bugging in one or the other way: Sometimes it doesn't absorb damage although the enemy hits right at the shield and sometimes it blocks from the sides, which it should not do. Judgement does not need a nerf because it is already very weak and has a low range (yes, it can insta-kill a 400 hp tyrant. but have you ever stepped on a scout trap?). The people that are still complaining should maybe first l2p against vanguards before complaining in the forums. There are at least 2 counter classes against him atm which work just fine for me, and other classes also got skills to do sth against him (just to give some examples: Sentinel with all builds, especially with wingflap and air strike; Summoner with all builds, especially the standard loadout; Deceiver negates the heal and often gets a DoT on 4 people with Infect because everyone cuddles the vanguard for his buff, he can also use backstab to nearly kill vanguard; Tyrant has a hard time against multiple vanguards but the loadout charge, shockwave, IP provides great utility for your team against this comp; haste reaver breaks through vanguards block like its nothing). If the Vanguard gets hit with the nerf bat again, he will be the weakest human class for sure.

AdmiralPPR
4th Mar 2015, 13:39
My games playing vanguard since patch felt fine. Still topped damage, still dominated. Had no issue landing axes while leading etc etc. He is still strong, just less of an instant win button. All the nerfs were warranted, everything that got nerfed is still good, just not outrageously so. They did a good job.

+1 I have to say that i hardly even noticed the hitbox change - roofchecking is still pretty awesome with the vanguard.
I really feels like the VanGuard perfectly fits into the human team now. He's still strong in the hands of the right player and can now be dominated like every other class if played poorly... Good balancing!

I personally really like the playstyle of the VanGuard - every mid/long range hit with the axe makes me smile :D

o2-D3nTe
4th Mar 2015, 14:14
Vanguard is now strong instead of being OP as hell.
It's still a really good class and you can easily deal the most damage in your team (People aren't used to axes yet, when they get better with it it'll hit more often and then deal even more damages).
Nerfs were really good and needed. It should now requiere more skill to be efficient with vanguard.

Protekt1
4th Mar 2015, 17:50
Vanguard is fine now. This thread is just a knee jerk reaction to actually having to play the class well in order to succeed. I remember the first time I tried vanguard I hit 18-20k damage and I was not even playing well.

It is in a much better spot now.

FireWorks_
4th Mar 2015, 19:12
Vanguard is a pain to play for me. He was nice in the close range damage output but he only had it close range. Now he has no more dps and massively lacks the damage any hit scan class can do over any range. Any mid range shot is a luck based hit or miss due to spread and a vampire aware of you will evade it anyway.

Not really enjoying the gunplay of him. I feel pretty useless compared to my potential with all other classes (alch shots feel more consistent in flight pattern). It is the dominate mind deceiver feeling...

While timing of the shots and the angle are things to adapt and learn, the overall sluggish handling of him makes it a bore to me.

Will be a pain to level him to 25.

Ygdrasel
4th Mar 2015, 22:08
Will be a pain to level him to 25.

So don't. I just saved you a horrible time.

DesolatedMaggot
4th Mar 2015, 22:19
Felt fine to me last night, a good player can still top damage if you play well but a bad player will not. I would like to direct any developer attention to this suggestion thread though, for quality of life/great justice/etc http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=152697

Edit: I'd also like to add that making his axe's impact sound more noticeable would go considerably to making him feel better to play against. I feel one of the issues people often complain about is that they simply don't realize they're being hit by my silent but deadly throwing axe.

TheDarknesFlame
4th Mar 2015, 22:54
Slightly off topic here, and I do not know if this is intentional or not. In regards to a match up of Vanguard vs Summoner, shield seems to be completely negated by stalkers, making it worthless if a summoner comes at a vanguard head on behind her minions.

For my two cents, I think the vanguard nerf was a good balance.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Mar 2015, 22:56
I have been thinking about the vanguard balance problem for a while, and the conclusion i got was:

Vanguards are so over powered because their damage has NO DISTANCE PENALTY.
If you take notice, all the classes (with exception of alchemist) have a distance penalty...so if you hit the enemy from very far it does considerable less damage.

So my opinion for a solution is to give the vanguard a good distance penalty for the axe/scythe throws.
This way he is still a formidable close range threat.

PS: i agree with most things OP said...i'm not sure if the hitbox reduction was necessary since its already hard to hit; and i saw no need for shield block capacity reduction.
But i do think the damage needed a nerf...i havent played much to tell if the amount they nerfed was the best

Ygdrasel
4th Mar 2015, 23:05
Slightly off topic here, and I do not know if this is intentional or not. In regards to a match up of Vanguard vs Summoner, shield seems to be completely negated by stalkers, making it worthless if a summoner comes at a vanguard head on behind her minions.

For my two cents, I think the vanguard nerf was a good balance.

Stalkers can be blocked by a shield. It's not negated.

jrkong
5th Mar 2015, 00:30
I think the Vanguard is in a pretty good place now (damage wise at least). I would tweak it a little more though. I think the hitbox for the axes got nerfed a little too much, somewhere between where it is now and where it was before would be best in my opinion. Blocking seems to absorb a little too much damage. Some moves I can understand being mostly blocked (backstab from the front, puncture, charged melee) but other things (like Tyrant charge, choking haze, and hellstrike) shouldn't be able to be blocked just by raising your shield.

Damage would be good if the hitbox wasn't nerfed the hell out of. Each class before Vanguard doesn't take nearly as much work to aim as hitscan more or less requires you to have the target within the crosshair and alchmist has AOE. Every other class has some degree of forgiveness with aiming so why shouldn't Vanguard? This is ignoring the fact that his rate of fire is the lowest of all human classes.


I have been thinking about the vanguard balance problem for a while, and the conclusion i got was:

Vanguards are so over powered because their damage has NO DISTANCE PENALTY.
If you take notice, all the classes (with exception of alchemist) have a distance penalty...so if you hit the enemy from very far it does considerable less damage.

So my opinion for a solution is to give the vanguard a good distance penalty for the axe/scythe throws.
This way he is still a formidable close range threat.

PS: i agree with most things OP said...i'm not sure if the hitbox reduction was necessary since its already hard to hit; and i saw no need for shield block capacity reduction.
But i do think the damage needed a nerf...i havent played much to tell if the amount they nerfed was the best

Well yes and no, damage reduction doesn't make sense at a distance with travel time and all BUT I think it would be interesting if the axe hitbox gets smaller as it travels further resulting in a close range deterrent that doesn't land axes like mad from a distance. In effect this would make Vanguard a reverse Alchmist in a sense where he excels in close range but has less forgiveness further away.

ApollosBow
5th Mar 2015, 00:43
I played tested the Vanguard since the patch multiple times, hes fine, very effective, but you have to use your shield......aim...and use your abilities, people just whining because they actually have to earn their kills instead of having a god like class that slaughters the enemy.

-Konf-
5th Mar 2015, 07:32
Absolutely disagree that Vanguard got over nerfed.

1) Hit box reduction was absolutely necessary. Before I was hit by axes that flew a metre above my head and it was a little silly. After playing him with the new changes, I really don't feel like hit box reduction ruins game play. Every single axe I landed was because of good aim or movement prediction, every single axe I missed was due to lack of it, nothing in between. I've had some axe throws that passed my targets by literally an inch - and I feel like that was a legitimate miss because a projectile shouldn't do damage without actually colliding with body mass. Scares me to think how it was before, as I haven't paid close attention to my hits/misses then.

2) Vanguard axe damage wasn't over powered because of the exploit. It was over powered on its own. I personally never used the bug despite being aware of it, yet I found it was incredibly easy to do ridiculous amounts of damage. The damage changes aren't even close to being harsh, not to mention over the line.

Overall Vanguard was adjusted nicely but I'm sure that the changes aren't finished yet. I'm sure his weapons will continue getting more and more feedback as we go (same as Prophet's Heavy Pistols) and future balance iterations will be made. I'm also sure some of his skills and combos that are really potent will be looked at as well.

Looking forward to:
1) As people suggested, more responsive sound effects on axes when being hit by them;
2) Evaluation of his skills and combos;
3) Potential future adjustments to weapon damage;
4) Most importantly Shield Block changes - Block Amount and Damage Reduction. I stress this point because as we go further with Vampire melee changes, the numbers on basic melee attacks will change. At the moment (despite the block amount being cut from 1,000 to 700) I think 90% damage reduction is still a little high. But these numbers on Vanguard will have to be closely correlated to Vampire performance, so let's evaluate those step by step. At this stage I'm more concerned with Vampires getting fixed rather than shield balancing.

FireWorks_
5th Mar 2015, 08:33
I find it pretty irritating to have new content in a game and get told not to play it.


The hit box nerf was a bit too excessive in my view. Someone posted in another thread that it might good to have it scaling with distance to avoid sniping while maintaining a proper close and midrange gunplay. Sounds reasonable to me.

Bazielim
5th Mar 2015, 12:39
Ladies and gentlemen, I would now like to draw everyones attention to the forum Terms of Use (http:// http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/announcement.php?f=100&a=1). Of particular note are terms 5 and 6, which state: "Do not attack or retaliate against any member or group of members on the forums" and "Treat members and their opinions with respect" - generally this means you can say x, y and z about an issue (within reason) but you absolutely cannot say x, y and z about a person. Now please, read the tou and debate in a civil manner, thank you.

puff_ng
5th Mar 2015, 15:12
I maintain that the class is inherently imbalanced because it is both:

- A tank; and
- A close range DPS

As long as he does both roles well, he'll be broken.

-Konf-
5th Mar 2015, 18:29
I maintain that the class is inherently imbalanced because it is both a tank and a close range DPS.
I see where you're coming from, but that's the unique point of this class - to be tanky. Now it's all about finding that sweet spot between the survivability and damage. Because if you take damage away this class becomes nothing - just a standing meatbag that can be ignored as he won't be much of a threat. Getting to that sweet spot might take some time, but I think we'll see it happen.

Sanguise23
5th Mar 2015, 18:34
i think he is fine where he is right now (although i only have used impaler ax) some players do well with him :) and some dont. I played just fine with him last night

JoeMama2
5th Mar 2015, 22:48
I still say the Vanguard was nerfed a bit too hard.

Cristari
5th Mar 2015, 22:50
I maintain that the class is inherently imbalanced because it is both:

- A tank; and
- A close range DPS

As long as he does both roles well, he'll be broken.

Why?


i think he is fine where he is right now (although i only have used impaler ax) some players do well with him :) and some dont. I played just fine with him last night

I agree, I have tried the Kama, Splitter and War and they are all underpowered IMO but the Impaler is in a nice place balance wise. I have already stated that I like the way the Vanguard is right now if only he could get back the full health of the shield he had before and the axes (all but Impaler) be reverted back for damage.

If the Waraxe had stun on it I could live with it's current damage.

DesolatedMaggot
5th Mar 2015, 23:37
If the Waraxe had stun on it I could live with it's current damage.Please, deer lord, no. +1 clip for Waraxe and it'll be a fine contender.

Equanimityjohn
5th Mar 2015, 23:57
I agree, I have tried the Kama, Splitter and War and they are all underpowered IMO but the Impaler is in a nice place balance wise. I have already stated that I like the way the Vanguard is right now if only he could get back the full health of the shield he had before and the axes (all but Impaler) be reverted back for damage.

After my time spent playing with him after his nerfs I agree with these statements. I feel like Impaler and War Axe are in great spots right now, but Kama and Splitter Axe both need some slight buffs. Kama maybe not so much but Splitter Axe most definitely. The block amount is okay at 700 but I don't think it'd hurt to buff it back because 700 damage happens rather quickly.

Then of course there is what I mentioned in a separate thread: Vanguard's block should interrupt his reload. He should be able to postpone reload in order to defend himself.

All that being said I think he is in a good spot right now and only needs these slight tweaks.

QQStkl
6th Mar 2015, 08:50
This guy's still overpowered. He's a tank that does more damage than other classes, has probably the best healing skill, AND has an incredibly powerful interrupt that you hardly have to aim. In one of the games I just played tonight, we actually had a pair of Vans sniping at us on the Provance tower from down by the fountain, so the range thing's clearly not an issue in the right player's hands. It's actually gotten to the point that Vampire teams I'm playing with are afraid to go into melee range, because the Vanguard so easily outclasses any vampire in close combat. The Humans definitely needed some close range help, but not one that can so easily beat any vamp class one on one. Vampires are supposed to be the ones terrifying at melee range, not the ones terrified of it; combined with the recent melee nerf Vamps seem entirely outclassed in their own environment.

I (unfortunately) just talked a friend of mine into trying the game after talking it up for weeks. Obviously he's new, so he's not expected to perform exceptionally, but after playing several games where he just watched his entire Vampire team get easily trounced by a teams of Vanguards (and as luck would have it no one on our teams having the Vanguard so he'd get to enjoy the other side of that coin), I'm not sure he's going to stick around. I definitely explained to him it's still open beta and that this class was just introduced, so there's bound to be balance issues, but you only get to make first impressions once, and the unfortunate timing means Nosgoth just made a terrible one. And when you have a new player, who's experiencing ALL of these classes for the first time, who after a couple games can clearly see that "DPS Healtanks are ridiculously OP," I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that he was nerfed too hard

--Ram--
6th Mar 2015, 09:00
He's a tank that does more damage than other classes

He may if the vanguard player is good and the hunter/scout/whatever can't aim. Otherwise no, other classes should do more. Many have higher dps, and hunter/scout/prophet are more effective at mid/long range. I do agree with vampires not feeling dominant in melee range though, but that problem goes further than just vanguard balance alone.

I actually think if he gets hit with any more nerfs he is at risk of becoming nonviable at high level play. Many times I play vanguard and the game is close, think we may lose so switch to hunter, then just faceroll the game and win easily. I'm not sure there are currently many situations where vanguard is a clear best pick.

FireWorks_
6th Mar 2015, 10:35
This guy's still overpowered. He's a tank that does more damage than other classes, has probably the best healing skill, AND has an incredibly powerful interrupt that you hardly have to aim. In one of the games I just played tonight, we actually had a pair of Vans sniping at us on the Provance tower from down by the fountain, so the range thing's clearly not an issue in the right player's hands. It's actually gotten to the point that Vampire teams I'm playing with are afraid to go into melee range, because the Vanguard so easily outclasses any vampire in close combat. The Humans definitely needed some close range help, but not one that can so easily beat any vamp class one on one. Vampires are supposed to be the ones terrifying at melee range, not the ones terrified of it; combined with the recent melee nerf Vamps seem entirely outclassed in their own environment.


Sorry but if you cant evade a projectile that is traveling over a second from half across the map to your face, I doubt you have any reflexes at all. You standing still and being predictable like a lying stone is hardly a balance argument.


He may if the vanguard player is good and the hunter/scout/whatever can't aim. Otherwise no, other classes should do more. Many have higher dps, and hunter/scout/prophet are more effective at mid/long range. I do agree with vampires not feeling dominant in melee range though, but that problem goes further than just vanguard balance alone.

I actually think if he gets hit with any more nerfs he is at risk of becoming nonviable at high level play. Many times I play vanguard and the game is close, think we may lose so switch to hunter, then just faceroll the game and win easily. I'm not sure there are currently many situations where vanguard is a clear best pick.

This is the problem: If you switch out for any other class, you roll them. This can be that he requires a different playstyle, has a different role etc. But with the stated design philosophy of having all classes equally viable, the current vanguard is not. My and your significant performance difference between him and all other class indicates pretty clearly that he is in a bad place.

(I believe to be a pretty versatile player. I played all 8 old Nosgoth classes to 25, and replayed them again with the whole variety of loadouts to gain all the achievements. Similar goes for all of the 9 classes of TF2 which has dedicated support roles etc, though I didnt hunt for all loadouts there.)

jrkong
6th Mar 2015, 19:43
Sorry but if you cant evade a projectile that is traveling over a second from half across the map to your face, I doubt you have any reflexes at all. You standing still and being predictable like a lying stone is hardly a balance argument.

This is the problem: If you switch out for any other class, you roll them. This can be that he requires a different playstyle, has a different role etc. But with the stated design philosophy of having all classes equally viable, the current vanguard is not. My and your significant performance difference between him and all other class indicates pretty clearly that he is in a bad place.

(I believe to be a pretty versatile player. I played all 8 old Nosgoth classes to 25, and replayed them again with the whole variety of loadouts to gain all the achievements. Similar goes for all of the 9 classes of TF2 which has dedicated support roles etc, though I didnt hunt for all loadouts there.)

Ya because that's totally unavoidable.
http://i.imgur.com/yytf62R.gif
No hits like that are because you're walking in a relatively predictable pattern.

You aren't exactly invincible on the roof, how about you move around?
http://i.imgur.com/X0DYM3d.gif

The hitbox reduction combo'd with the damage reduction just seems to take too much off of the Vanguard. Before vampires would have to pick their fights more carefully but now vampires can afford to try riskier plays because axes aren't nearly as much of a threat because the melee animation is more then enough to make them miss. Damage nerf was necessary but the hitbox was hit too hard if you ask me. If you move around predictably and an axe hits you it's not because the hitbox is too big you're just not playing smart enough, that or the other guy's just smarter.

While the shield exists it doesn't really help you when you have huge animation gaps. Unlike hitscan classes there's a windup before the axe leaves your hand. You can't use your shield or tank during that time and the same applies to reload. Even if you look like you're grabbing axes from behind your shield it isn't active as you're reloading. The only time shield really helps is when you see a big ability coming or if you're stalling as your teammates deal the damage.

JoeMama2
7th Mar 2015, 02:07
Ya because that's totally unavoidable.
http://i.imgur.com/yytf62R.gif
No hits like that are because you're walking in a relatively predictable pattern.

You aren't exactly invincible on the roof, how about you move around?
http://i.imgur.com/X0DYM3d.gif

The hitbox reduction combo'd with the damage reduction just seems to take too much off of the Vanguard. Before vampires would have to pick their fights more carefully but now vampires can afford to try riskier plays because axes aren't nearly as much of a threat because the melee animation is more then enough to make them miss. Damage nerf was necessary but the hitbox was hit too hard if you ask me.

I feel the same way. Revert the hitbox nerf.

TheDreamcrusher
7th Mar 2015, 02:53
I kind of feel the same about reverting the hitboxes to the way they were for Vanguard weapons. I could see a happy medium another way though. Playing with the Waraxe I now noticed there's an insane wind-up time from the moment you click LMB to the moment the Vanguard releases his weapon for a throw, so much so that I have to track my aim from the moment from when LMB is clicked.

I'm guessing this is the way the Waraxe attack animation worked out because it got the slowest attack speed. The alternative I'd rather see is the throwing animation made almost instantaneous while the time between throws was kept the same. It's just a tad tiresome to have to constantly compensate for the throws for all axes.

jrkong
7th Mar 2015, 03:45
I kind of feel the same about reverting the hitboxes to the way they were for Vanguard weapons. I could see a happy medium another way though. Playing with the Waraxe I now noticed there's an insane wind-up time from the moment you click LMB to the moment the Vanguard releases his weapon for a throw, so much so that I have to track my aim from the moment from when LMB is clicked.

I'm guessing this is the way the Waraxe attack animation worked out because it got the slowest attack speed. The alternative I'd rather see is the throwing animation made almost instantaneous while the time between throws was kept the same. It's just a tad tiresome to have to constantly compensate for the throws for all axes.

You really are compensating twice as much and it really stings. It's rather hard to consistently land axes with the small clip and the amount of compensation required to use them. The Vanguard can't survive with burst damage with the damage it's outputting right now and dealing damage consistently is next to impossible with the amount of leading required.

TeeSin
7th Mar 2015, 14:14
Well .... still sastified with him even after the nerf :D . It is needed and yet he still a good 1v1 class :D .

ParadoxicalOmen
7th Mar 2015, 16:27
I have a question...even though the devs say its possible, i never seen a Vanguard blocking and Abduct/Kidnap.
Are most of us just noobs, or is this a bug?

DesolatedMaggot
7th Mar 2015, 17:30
It's not possible. They make at least one glaring mistake in each one of those "Class Warfare" videos. :whistle:

You can however use Shield Charge to knock a Sentinel out of the air, just don't charge them head-on when they're using Kidnap, they'll always win that way.

RainaAudron
7th Mar 2015, 17:41
I have a question...even though the devs say its possible, i never seen a Vanguard blocking and Abduct/Kidnap.

I wondered about that too... I´ve learnt the hard way already, heh.

Zagroth
7th Mar 2015, 18:45
These developers:

"Oh are vampires too OP? We'll nerf humans some more then..."

Can you think of a time when human weapons weren't nerfed on a update-to-update basis? Me neither!

DesolatedMaggot
7th Mar 2015, 18:53
Vampires are not overpowered.

Cristari
7th Mar 2015, 19:50
IMO A Vampire flying at you with Leap attack or Pounce is the same as Kidnap or Abduct Don't see why Vanguards cant block them get this fixed asap

DesolatedMaggot
7th Mar 2015, 19:58
Reaver Pounce is far more difficult to block than a Kidnap, quite sure its as intended.

jrkong
8th Mar 2015, 16:24
I wondered about that too... I´ve learnt the hard way already, heh.
That's a myth. never works.

Also anyone else notice that taking even the slightest hint of damage takes you out of Shield Charge? I can't even count the number of times a regular vampire melee has taken me out of Shield Charge by now.

RainaAudron
8th Mar 2015, 17:53
That's a myth. never works.

I know, my post was referring to that information in the video being incorrect...

FireWorks_
8th Mar 2015, 21:07
That's a myth. never works.

Also anyone else notice that taking even the slightest hint of damage takes you out of Shield Charge? I can't even count the number of times a regular vampire melee has taken me out of Shield Charge by now.

Its not a myth, you can shield charge low flying sentinels. At least I managed to do it, but it is a really situational thing as they usally are during a grab.


Cant pinpoint it down why some charges dont have the same effect as others. Some are a lot shorter than others... Guess its time to watch a replay.

Brackstone17
8th Mar 2015, 22:33
In addition to any amount of damage knocking vanguards out of a charge, I've also noticed that the charge has the same issue some vampire melee attacks and abilities have, where sometimes you collide with a vampire but they aren't affected by it. Sort of like how tyrant's overhead melee or deceivers backstab can connect with an enemy and you either bounce around them or get stuck on them, but do no damage. I guess at least now humans are somewhat subject to the glitchy hitbox interaction that vampires suffer from.

Ghosthree3
9th Mar 2015, 01:54
My games playing vanguard since patch felt fine. Still topped damage, still dominated. Had no issue landing axes while leading etc etc. He is still strong, just less of an instant win button. All the nerfs were warranted, everything that got nerfed is still good, just not outrageously so. They did a good job.
I agree with this, if you actually aim well and land everything he's incredible. It's not all that difficult to do either.

JoeMama2
9th Mar 2015, 05:23
You really are compensating twice as much and it really stings. It's rather hard to consistently land axes with the small clip and the amount of compensation required to use them. The Vanguard can't survive with burst damage with the damage it's outputting right now and dealing damage consistently is next to impossible with the amount of leading required.


Ya because that's totally unavoidable.
http://i.imgur.com/yytf62R.gif
No hits like that are because you're walking in a relatively predictable pattern.

You aren't exactly invincible on the roof, how about you move around?
http://i.imgur.com/X0DYM3d.gif

The hitbox reduction combo'd with the damage reduction just seems to take too much off of the Vanguard. Before vampires would have to pick their fights more carefully but now vampires can afford to try riskier plays because axes aren't nearly as much of a threat because the melee animation is more then enough to make them miss. Damage nerf was necessary but the hitbox was hit too hard if you ask me. If you move around predictably and an axe hits you it's not because the hitbox is too big you're just not playing smart enough, that or the other guy's just smarter.

While the shield exists it doesn't really help you when you have huge animation gaps. Unlike hitscan classes there's a windup before the axe leaves your hand. You can't use your shield or tank during that time and the same applies to reload. Even if you look like you're grabbing axes from behind your shield it isn't active as you're reloading. The only time shield really helps is when you see a big ability coming or if you're stalling as your teammates deal the damage.


I agree with this, if you actually aim well and land everything he's incredible. It's not all that difficult to do either.

Revert the hitbox nerf. :mad2:

--Ram--
9th Mar 2015, 06:23
Its not a myth, you can shield charge low flying sentinels. At least I managed to do it, but it is a really situational thing as they usally are during a grab.


Cant pinpoint it down why some charges dont have the same effect as others. Some are a lot shorter than others... Guess its time to watch a replay.

I believe what happens is you charge and knockdown the sent during their windup while they make the screech, before they are actually able to pickup. Hence why it tends to happen to low slow flying sents, aka terrible sents who don't time abduct properly.


In addition to any amount of damage knocking vanguards out of a charge, I've also noticed that the charge has the same issue some vampire melee attacks and abilities have, where sometimes you collide with a vampire but they aren't affected by it. Sort of like how tyrant's overhead melee or deceivers backstab can connect with an enemy and you either bounce around them or get stuck on them, but do no damage. I guess at least now humans are somewhat subject to the glitchy hitbox interaction that vampires suffer from.

I've noticed that on elevated ping (talking in the realm of 250-300) charge (and vangaurd) becomes close to useless. Charge will very often go right through people and not affect them. Axes additional delay makes them very hard to use as well.

People who still want the hitbox nerf reverted just need to actually aim at their targets and play him the way he was intended. The current hitbox means that if you hit your target they get hit. Previously you just needed to throw the axe in their general vicinity.

-Konf-
9th Mar 2015, 07:23
I've also noticed that the charge has the same issue some vampire melee attacks and abilities have, where sometimes you collide with a vampire but they aren't affected by it.
That happened to me once and I wasn't sure if my eyes deceived me, so I'm glad to see it's not just me (happened on local server, so lag is out of the question).

My other problem with Shield Charge is that it's inconsistent. Sometimes I can charge three enemies with no problem, but sometimes I stop after colliding with just one and not going any farther to knock out the others. Summoner's Ghouls are fantastic at causing that.

JoeMama2
12th Mar 2015, 02:45
I hope the next patch they revert the hitbox nerf. It needs to be a thing.

ursorlicious
12th Mar 2015, 08:42
vanguard is fine. dunno why you're crying.

the axe hitbox WAS way too big. i didn't miss any single throw, even on a roof crouching reaver, lol. from any distance.

/edit

i'm playing vanguard a lot and still enjoy this class.

MasterFurbz
12th Mar 2015, 12:40
Vanguards seem to be in a good place. Personally I'd like for them to stay as-is. However, I can see the logic in desiring a hitbox increase. I don't think that it's necessary to have a full reversion of the 25% reduction. The vanguard definitely became less accessible, but practice makes perfect. ;)

k9067c4a2xc3
13th Mar 2015, 17:28
My problem is that with the animation changes you cannot block a few vampire melee attacks with your shield and then deliver a counter attack. You're character model is too slow and the vampires (except for possibly tyrant) are too fast, so you get hit anyway. As it stands shield use is regulated to saving yourself for a few seconds for a cooldown on charge or shield bash to finish or as a panic button . You might think this is 'good enough', but I don't think it is, because it could be so much more.

RainaAudron
19th Mar 2015, 14:25
After the latest patch, Vanguard seems almost unusable to me - I´ve tried many timest to play as him, but hits, which should hit, miss most of the time. Before it was too easy to hit targets, now it´s really difficult in comparison to other classes. Couldn´t there be a middle ground?

MickeyHokkaido
20th Mar 2015, 14:05
(Bare in mind that while I have every other class between 22 and 25, my Vanguard is still just level 16)

First off, I want to say that I really like the *IDEA* of the Vanguard as a class, I enjoy playing him and I strongly support the damage nerf to the throwing axes and the change to make Rallying Cry not stack - those were necessary changes.

I think a big issue with the Vanguard is his main weapon requires significantly more skill to hit with than the weapons of the Hunter, Scout and Prophet's weapons, and yet it has burst DPS lower than most other weapons, but sustain DPS on par with other human weapons. I do understand that he needs to have drawbacks somewhere due to the increased survivability of higher HP and the shield, but I feel like if the kamas/axes are staying how they are, we really need to make the shield or abilities better to give him a defined strength and group purpose. As far as being the tank/support player - he's totally trumped by the Hunter. The bolas ability totally trumps charge. Hunter close/mid DPS / burst damage via multibow (and to a lesser extent other xbows) applies much greater pressure to attacking vamps than any damage or CC the Vanguard puts out. 20% speed and 15% health over 5 seconds doesn't really change much at all and hurts you with a brief self crowd control since it has such a huge warm-up time. Every half-second in an engagement counts big and using the Vanguard's abilities is often a liability for that reason. He's slow and unresponsive in all aspects except one: Shield bash.

He's closest in game-play to the Alchemist I'd say since he does open up the strategic option to hit vamps on roofs. The Alchemist makes up for her projectile weapon with AoE damage and fantastic damage abilities. She has a clearly defined AoE role on the team. I just don't see the Vanguard's abilities as supporting the role envisioned by the developers.

*Shield Bash: Overall, I see this ability as alright as it fires quickly and interrupts vamps. The problem is that it's quite selfish and ends up as a question of 'If I'm running a shield bash Vanguard, why not switch over to a Hunter who is able to put out just as much damage from a longer range with more burst/sustain and better CC + an AoE ability?'

*Shield Charge: Buggy and not really consistent in what it can charge through and what stops it. This is probably the ideal party-support ability, but when you compare it to the CC/Support abilities of the Prophet and Hunter, it is my opinion that it comes up short. One of the big issues is that using this ability to close with a vampire attacking a teammate isn't necessarily in the Vanguard's best interest. It's often easier to fight as a human of any class at medium range over short range and when you close with a vampire, you open yourself up to their harder hitting abilities like puncture/sweeping kick and the cleaving left click attacks.

*Judgement: The wind-up and short range relegate this ability to one that probably shines in low-level matches vs. evasion Reavers and ignore pain Tyrants since those players don't have / don't know about the other abilities yet but is entirely too situational and difficult-to-hit with against intermediate-to-advanced players. Why pick Judgement even against a lot of Reavers and Tyrants with those specific abilities, even? Shield Bash and Shield Charge probably work out better against those compositions anyway, since a Reaver or Tyrant running those abilities is probably moving away from you while you're trying to use Judgement...

Finally, I need to touch on another reason Vanguard doesn't seem to cut it in the higher-MMR brackets: Soft Counters. The Sentinel class needs to be countered with the hit-scan human classes in order to punish an in-flight Sentinel post-kidnap/abduct. It is much more difficult to hit Sentinels with Vanguard AND Alchemist projectiles than the hit-scan weapons. For this reason taking a Vanguard on your team instead of one of the hit-scan classes always risks being countered by one or more Sentinels on the enemy team. This is especially true if you end up with someone going Alchemist on the team as well. You see this a lot when fighting against Summoners because you really benefit as a team when someone picks Alchemist against Summoner(s). For this reason, I sincerely hope that the Vanguard is given some kind of ability that can punish/crowd-control an in-flight Sentinel as a swap-out for the 'Rallying Cry' ability.

In my view, the bottom line is this: Vanguard doesn't really seem to counter any of the Vampire classes better than another human class and doesn't really provide any kind of support for his team better than another class. Additionally, he does not fulfill a 'jack of all trades' role on the team better than the Hunter or Prophet in any regard. I look forward to any feedback more experienced Vanguards can provide me with that might open my mind to ability/class uses I have not considered.

Equanimityjohn
20th Mar 2015, 21:14
Bullseye

Pretty much nailed it Mickey. The vanguard in his current iteration is almost entirely worthless by comparison to the other humans, albeit rather fun to play no less. My vanguard is 23 1/2 and I'll be hitting 25 on him sometime soon. I love the playstyle but it doesn't have anything to make it a worthy pick in higher MMR play versus any other human class, just as you've pointed out.

Roof clearing is definitely one of his strongest traits, despite the fact that alchemist does it sooooo much better. I feel like another strong point of his is his sustained 'burst' damage, especially at range, but it is ridiculously hard to actually utilize this effectively. Shield charge being a quick way in and out of combat makes the vanguard very unique and helps him fight well, but there is certainly still a lot of room for improvement.

The block is only so useful because currently is it BROKEN / BUGGED. It will stagger you even if your attackers do not meet the damage threshhold... repeatedly. Not only that but it is weak. 700 damage is almost nothing. 1000 seemed far more sensical, especially now that the vanguard's threat is indeed so low with the damage and hitbox nerfs and a lack of reliable ranged AoE. It wouldn't matter if the threshhold was 10k damage so long as it remains malfunctioning, though. The block, if the actual threshhold was higher and if it functioned properly, works well to 'softcounter' almost all vampires in melee skirmishes with the humans if the human team is coordinated and assist the blocking vanguard. That being said, however, the vanguard's threat is so low currently that it is totally acceptable to go for him LAST in these skirmishes which mitigates the function of his shield entirely. Another thing about block which makes it ABSOLUTELY UNRELIABLE is that it cannot interrupt the vanguard's reload, so if forced in to reloading (because you're using your axes to actually do something useful) you can not defend yourself which makes absolutely no sense and hinders the vanguard greatly.

I played with shield charge leveling up mostly, and I just recently started using shield bash more and it is quite good for 'dueling' with vampires. I feel like both skills function well, but they both feel like they do slightly too little damage. The devs ninja nerfed shield bash, as it used to do 275 damage which let it one shot summoner's stalkers. I think this nerf should be reverted. Having played with it before nerfs it gave the vanguard far more presence in combat against summoners, which it entirely lacks when surrounded by summons and deceiver clones blocking the slow wind up projectiles (which now are quite difficult to land with the hitbox nerfs).

As for shield charge, I think its damage should be bumped up to 225, it seems insignificant but every little bit helps. As for shield charge's applications I feel like it should just pass through minions as it seems to do players, sometimes. It stops cold on summoner minions which is insanely agitating. Consistency matters and currently this skill is a mess, but regardless it is rewarding to use effectively and many times I have knocked sentinels out of grabs with it.

Judgement is a very interesting ability with awful application as you mentioned. The only thing I could think to help balance it and to bring more power and diversity (and skill ceiling) to Vanguard would be to put this skill in the same skill slot as Rousing Cry. A shield charge -> Judgement combo just makes sense. Gap close on to a weakened enemy and execute them. A shield bash -> judgement combo makes perfect sense too. A nice bit of AoE clear to get rid of any minions or deceiver clones on you on top of a stagger on nearby enemies giving you time to cast judgement. The vanguard is slow and will never catch up to a vampire normally, and losing the reliability of CC from shield bash or charge will NEVER be worth what you 'gain' from judgement because it is so situational. Currently judgement is useless, but if it were to be an alternative to rousing cry I could see it being used frequently, however it wouldn't be "OP" in any sense and the choice between it and rousing cry would be entirely up to the player and/or the needs of their team. If worried about it being "OP" it would be quite easy to lower the damage and/or the radius and/or the execute threshhold ever so slightly to make it feel balanced. This would take community testing to determine. Having Judgement in the same skill slot at rousing cry not only brings much needed diversity to Vanguard but it also brings THREAT to Vanguard which makes his block mechanic increasingly more useful. How does it bring threat you ask? Simple: having a vanguard that can gap close and execute you around doesn't bode well for a bunch of low life vampires who just killed off the rest of his team.


TL; DR
NO ONE USES JUDGEMENT, LET IT REPLACE ROUSING CRY. THIS WILL HELP A LOT!

DesolatedMaggot
20th Mar 2015, 22:12
Rather like the idea of having Judgement on F. It simply cannot compete with Bash or Charge, especially considering on average it only deals an extra 115 damage when executing. Only time its good is killing Ignore Pain tyrants who hover around in a fight when they're low health -- how often does that really happen? You'd never give up Bash or Charge for this highly situational event, but Rousing Cry? Maybe, maybe...

As for Vanguard bringing less to the party, I kind of agree his crowd control is rather weak when compared to Bola or Hex Shot, and certainly has less damage than Hunter and Alchemist. Yes its true he has the potential to out-damage Scout and Prophet but one missed axe or full charge shot hit, and any half decent Prophet/Scout will eek out ahead, being the accurate hit-scan classes they are. I sometimes feel as though the nerfs came in too hard and too fast. Without the ability to exploit or block immediately after throwing, block becoming horribly unreliable + its damage threshold nerf, Shield Bash nerf, and the overall damage nerf -- All these things combined may have been a touch too much.

Da_Wolv
20th Mar 2015, 22:42
My biggest gripe with the Vanguard is this:

1) For some reason, you can no longer block pouncing reavers with your shield
2) Shield Charge is the best ability, yet doesn't do what the animation would suggest:
a) Pounces and Kidnaps take precedent, which they really shouldn't. Vanguard is so easy to kill with a sentinel as it is, and you can charge them out of the air when they grab a teammate in front of you.
I think, since the Vanguard has such a hard time hitting sentinels while they are in the air, he should have at least this minor ability to stop them in their flight, making Shield Charge a skill shot to counter them when executed correctly.
b) When you charge, you hold your shield in front of you (even glowing yellow) yet it blocks no damage. This is something I had to teach myself: When a sentinel drops you, first BLOCK the puncture, then CHARGE. If you charge right away, all you do is 200-odd damage and the sentinel still kills you.

MickeyHokkaido
20th Mar 2015, 23:52
I think you touched on a lot of the points I missed, so thanks. Yeah, I'm a little bummed he got nerfed in all aspects so fast as to make him this bad. I would support your suggestion of putting judgement on the f key, but that would make it the clear choice as 'Best in Slot.' Perhaps that could be coupled with a minor buff to Rousing Cry to make it heal 20% total over 5 seconds?

I do think two of the axes got hit a little too hard. ONLY A LITTLE BIT. I'd like to see the Waraxe get buffed up to 1.0 instead of .9 fire-rate and the splitter go from 1.1 to 1.4 to give it a point-blank and 'forgiving aim' niche.

Instead of focusing too much on his weapon though, it's the abilities that make the class and Vanguard's abilities flat out suck right now. He really needs to have something that defines his character better.

When the Summoner class was introduced, it changed human gameplay significantly. We see a lot of quick AoE abilities being deployed, we see a lot more use of Alchemists, we see significantly less camping and clumping, we see more healing being played. When the Vanguard was introduced, we saw a brief spark of mass Sentinels being played, then no meta-game changes.

I think he's going to need to go back to the drawing board in a way that no other class has.

DesolatedMaggot
21st Mar 2015, 00:23
I would support your suggestion of putting judgement on the f key, but that would make it the clear choice as 'Best in Slot.' Perhaps that could be coupled with a minor buff to Rousing Cry to make it heal 20% total over 5 seconds?I disagree here. I think they'd compete quite nicely. Sure most people will take the damage option but that doesn't mean the heal isn't good or comparable.


I'd like to see the Waraxe get buffed up to 1.0 instead of .9 fire-ratePlease do not do this. Even though a .10 second increase wouldn't change much, the waraxe's slow fire rate lends itself to higher accuracy. Since Vanguard has reversed recoil (precoil), the slow fire rate allows you more time to adjust before the axe goes out. +1 clip size and Waraxe will be golden.

RainaAudron
21st Mar 2015, 00:52
I do find that Judgement has its great use in Flashpoint, when the vamps are all close together, so I would not like it to move to another slot as I like healing as well. Also splitter hatchet worked much better for me, so maybe I just need time to adjust to him. I do agree, that blocking a pounce should be back.

barthez36663
21st Mar 2015, 14:59
I think Vanguard need re- balancing again cos it doesnt feel tanky anymore. Before nerf everyone was thinking twice before jumping on him, now I just wreck them, even with deceiver whichh supposed to be weaker physically. Anyway vanguard dont have anything special in him, i feel alche,ist is more useful now. Shield dont take as much damage as before so mostly youre wrecked by anything in front of you, his abilities dont have anything that cant be done with other classes, maybe only shield charge. I think too it would be better to put judgment in f button. And I dont understand why he cant block pounces anymore its stupid, that why i stopped using him, it made reaver think twice before attacking and force him to use more sneaky approach. And i rarely see vanguard used in battles now, people mostly prefer run other 4 classes. Axes should be buffed a little, and maybe damage that could be taken on shield too, giv ehim good abilites on f, and make him block pounces and abduct and he ll be good

JoeMama2
1st Apr 2015, 01:30
The new patch is proof. That the hitbox nerf was to much. Sooo many people were says it's fine, it's fine.....NO! it was not and now that is fact.

Ygdrasel
1st Apr 2015, 02:04
The new patch is proof. That the hitbox nerf was to much. Sooo many people were says it's fine, it's fine.....NO! it was not and now that is fact.

I don't think you know what "fact" means...

JoeMama2
1st Apr 2015, 04:49
I don't think you know what "fact" means...

Cool Story, Bro