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DesolatedMaggot
2nd Mar 2015, 16:34
SaoC and I have recently done some testing on bleeds and how they work. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions around them, so we've decided to post the results. SaoC's math, I'm just a mouthpiece/test dummy.

As you can see from the numbers below, bleeds do not stack. Instead they replace each other, resulting in considerably less DPS than expected. Because of this "munching" mechanic, the more you shoot the less damage you do per shot. As is, Piercing Pistols cannot kill a full health Tyrant without reloading. Impaler Axe also suffer from the same bleed munching fate, though it is still too strong compared to the other axes. Impaler Axe's strength is more of a Damage Per Clip issue than DPS issue. A slight nerf to Impaling Axe's clip size is all that is really needed -- at least when compared to the other options.

All pistols/axes are included for easier comparison.

Prophet Pistols:

Piercing Pistols
DMG: 115+40/2 (132 avg. dmg per shot)
RoF: 1.9
Clip: 10
DPS: 250.8*
D/P: 1326.38 (1150 from pistol, 176.36 from dot 44% of 400DMG)

Piercing Pistols Damage per Shot Progression:

155
135
135
130
131
128.3
129.28
127.5
128.3
127


Heavy Pistols
DMG: 150
RoF: 1.6
Clip: 9
DPS: 240
D/P: 1350

Dual Pistols
DMG: 110
RoF: 2.2
Clip: 12
DPS: 242
D/P: 1320

Quick Pistols
DMG: 90
RoF: 2.7
Clip: 15
DPS: 243
D/P: 1350


Vanguard Weapons:

Impaler Axe
DMG: 215+100/2 (278.15 avg. dmg per shot)
RoF: 1
Clip: 7
DPS: 278.15*
D/P: 1947.05 (1505 from axes, 442.05 from dots 63% of 700DMG)

Impaler Axe Damage per Toss Progression:

315
277.5
273.3
271.25
270
270
270


Kama
DMG: 230
RoF: 1.2
Clip: 7
DPS: 276
D/P: 1610

Splitter Hatchet
DMG: 120*2
RoF: 1.1
Clip: 6
DPS: 264
D/P: 1440

Waraxe
DMG: 285
RoF: 0.9
Clip: 5
DPS: 256.5
D/P: 1425




*Not taking into account the dots after the last shot, roughly 1-2 seconds of extra ticks, therefore, the actual DPS is slightly lower than this.

_Kine_
2nd Mar 2015, 16:45
thank you. quick pistol numbers explain why i like em so much.

puff_ng
3rd Mar 2015, 06:29
What's D/P?

_Kine_
3rd Mar 2015, 08:07
damage per clip

Razaiim
3rd Mar 2015, 08:26
Nice work but this doesn't tell the whole story. You're forgetting tick times and damage/tick

Pierce pistols deal 20 damage every second for 2 seconds. Since prophet pistols fire almost twice a second, it often happens the bleed to never does additional damage, unless you miss shots, or stagger your fire rate to allow a tick of damage, which can get you killed in a fight.

The Impaler Axe does 25 damage every 0.5 seconds. With a throw rate of one second and the fact that the weapon is a projectile with travel time, you will often see 75 damage done from the DoT even if you fire as fast as possible. At slightly longer distances the bleed will do the full 100 before the next axe connects. As such the Impaler axe, in practice does minimum 290/attack, so it out classes the "heavy" axe, while having near identical stats to the base axe. Secondly, the impaler axe belongs to the vanguard, which can shield to wait out that extra tick safely with out taking notable damage. Thirdly the axes are not subject to fall-off at any range so there should be no need for a progression.

For balancing I'm feeling 3 ticks of 30 damage every 0.66 seconds, for 90 damage over 2, meaning only 275 between axe hits, with a potential 305 for waiting. Or increase the duration to 2.5 and do 5 ticks of 20 every 0.5 seconds, again damage would be around 60, and a full extra second for the extra 40.

DesolatedMaggot
3rd Mar 2015, 16:15
Nice work but this doesn't tell the whole story. You're forgetting tick times and damage/tick

Pierce pistols deal 20 damage every second for 2 seconds. Since prophet pistols fire almost twice a second, it often happens the bleed to never does additional damage, unless you miss shots, or stagger your fire rate to allow a tick of damage, which can get you killed in a fight.

The Impaler Axe does 25 damage every 0.5 seconds. With a throw rate of one second and the fact that the weapon is a projectile with travel time, you will often see 75 damage done from the DoT even if you fire as fast as possible. At slightly longer distances the bleed will do the full 100 before the next axe connects. As such the Impaler axe, in practice does minimum 290/attack, so it out classes the "heavy" axe, while having near identical stats to the base axe. Secondly, the impaler axe belongs to the vanguard, which can shield to wait out that extra tick safely with out taking notable damage. Thirdly the axes are not subject to fall-off at any range so there should be no need for a progression.

For balancing I'm feeling 3 ticks of 30 damage every 0.66 seconds, for 90 damage over 2, meaning only 275 between axe hits, with a potential 305 for waiting. Or increase the duration to 2.5 and do 5 ticks of 20 every 0.5 seconds, again damage would be around 60, and a full extra second for the extra 40.
The entire point of this post is informing people that bleeds work this way. None of this was forgotten or overlooked. You might want to look over the post again. The "Shot Progression" isn't the damage fall-off from distance, its the damage fall-off from bleeds replacing each other. Tests were done at medium range.

Razaiim
3rd Mar 2015, 19:37
I've re-read the post carefully, 4 times now, (twice before posting, and now twice after). I am still confused. I understand that you are trying to prove that bleed effects do not stack, but that could easily be done by pointing out that the DoT does not occur/final tick does not occur when the weapon hits again.

The numbers are still confusing, and I disagree with how almost all of them (excepting the ones given by the game) are used and represented. Since these flaws apply to both bleed effects, I'll focus on the prophet one to highlight my point.

**IMPORTANT: Prophet shots are hit scan, therefore hit instantly, therefore there is no travel time**

Average Damage per shot means (115+135+155)/3, yielding.... 135 potential damage on average. However, this is not helpful information, there is not an RNG when it comes to dealing damage (average damage is best used in RPG's where the damage has a random chance of being in a range of values), and there are few factors that control the potential damage... Player accuracy and player's rate of fire. Since we've established this was done at a range where fall-off is not a factor, and where most fighting occurs we can ignore that. Assuming, maximum rate of fire, and maximum accuracy (one shot every 0.53 seconds), each shot only has the potential to do 115 damage. The rate of fire is just too high for a bleed tick to happen. At maximum rate of fire, it is unlikely to have perfect accuracy. Let's assume 50% accuracy, meaning one hit every 1.06 seconds. Shots now deal 135 damage, as there is the tiniest amount of enough time to do one tick of bleed before the next shot lands in. In order to do 155 damage at maximum fire rate, you would have to land your 4th shot after the initial hit, putting you at 25% accuracy. The same situation happens if the player waits in between shots, as slower fire yields much more accuracy. A player would have to fire 1 second after each hit to deal 135, and 2 seconds to deal 155. DPS is then calculated using wrong numbers. DPS will be one of either (by shots I mean hits): 218.5 (115 damage/shot * 1.9 shots/sec), 135 (115 damage/shot*1 shots/second +20/dps bleed), 77.5 (115 damage/shot*0.5 shots/second+20dps bleed). Since it is possible for a player to fall with in these range of values, by mis-timing shots, the average dps comes out to be: 143.67. The damage per clip ranges between 1190 (the last shot always does +40 damage)-1550. Due to the potential to mis-time shots, the average DPC = 1370, near equal to shooting once per second for 135 damage.

Shot progression is a flawed number. If I am reading it right, then that is the damage each shot does as you move down the clip. It is impossible for pierce pistols at the describe range to do anything other than 115, 135 or 155. So I suspect that these numbers are averaged or calculated with some respect to time. It is also worth noting that Fire rate does not decay as you move down the clip, unless it is a conscious effort of the player to reduce fire rate for accuracy.

**IMPORTANT: Vanguard axes are projectiles, and have travel time. Damage is not applied when fired**

The impaler axe is a different story. The bleed applies damage twice before firing, and at the described range, will apply a third time before hitting the target. Functional damage/shot is 290. Waiting 0.5 seconds before throwing ensures 315 damage/shot, which also gives the player room for perfect accuracy. The DPS effectively ranges from 290 (215 damage/shot*1 shot/second + 50dps *1.5 s) to 241 (215 damage/shot *0.66 shot/second + 50dps*2 seconds), averaging 265.5 dps. Damage per clip functionally ranges from 2055 (290*6+315 since last shot does full damage) - 2205, averaging 2130. It is worth noting that this is enough to kill 2 vampires if you wait half a second between shots, which is no time at all. Shot progression has the same issues as prophet.

DesolatedMaggot
3rd Mar 2015, 21:51
"The purpose of this post is to describe how bleeds get munched. Just describing how the damage on the tooltip, (115+40/2, etc) isn't the exact damage that happens. This isn't taking into account rng, accuracty, delaying shots, doing hex shots, cd's, etc. This is based on just fully shooting in a 1v1 scenario (The most basic of scenarios).

The reason behind the shot progression is this; If you shoot a Tyrant once with piercing pistols, it does 115+20+20, over 2 seconds. As it does on the tooltip. If you shoot them twice without waiting between shots, it does a total of 270 damage. Which yes, averages out to 135 damage per shot. BUT, it should be, 310. Hence the bleed munching we are describing in this post. The shot progression goes down further the more you shoot, more bleeds getting munched, therefore, more damage NOT happening, that should be happening according to the tooltip. If you shoot a Tyrant 10 times, in succession, without stopping, it does 1327 dmg. 1150 of which, is from the direct damage from the pistols, and 177 from dots. The dots should add up to 400 damage. Only 44% of the 400 damage goes through, hence the munching.

The same thing happens with axes, regardless of travel time/etc. Yes, I agree, axes have more of a slight variable to them because of the travel time, but, it still happens regardless. We did testing based on an average range, not point blank, not far. The average range someone would most likely be throwing the axes. The results came out being the same. 1 axe does 315 over it's 2 seconds, as it says on the tooltip. All the way to 5 axes. I had to use percentage degradation to get 6, and 7 (The last two in the clip). The actual math behind it came out to being about 6 being 269, and 7 being 268. I just rounded them up to 270 for easier swallowing. Either way, the point being, the dots get munched over the course of throwing the axes. If you throw all 7 axes (Calculation the percentage degradation of the axes, the same you would for shots 5-10 on pistols (Since they do less dmg)). It comes out to being a damage per clip of 1947, 1505 from the axes, and 442 from the dots, out of a total of 700 dot dmg based on the tooltip. Again, it's 63% of what it should be doing.

All this post is pointing out is that the dots are getting munched. They aren't as strong as people are leading them to be, because they are only going by the tooltip. That is the point of this post, to inform those that think one thing, because they haven't tested it otherwise.

Yes, there is RNG, latency, the ability to slow your shots, and accuracy to all take into account. This is all based on paper numbers, which again, is the most basic of scenarios, but, is the one that most things are based on when balancing. If you have 50% accuracy, yes, less of the munching happens, therefore you do more damage PER shot/axe. But, if you don't have poor accuracy, munching will occur, which is the point of this post, and math." - SaoC

SouAbyss
5th Jun 2015, 12:08
I suspect this thread is out of date but I confused me a lot so I did my own quick test.

I shot 10 piercing pistol shots consecutively. I saw 20 dmg pop up on screen 1 second after the first shot, and every second after that. In total my dmg was (115 * 10) + (20 * 6) Or 1150 + 120 which equals 1270. I'm not sure about dps but I like the piercing pistols for sniping sentie and you can get lots of dmgif you switch targets. Not sure how long I will use them for.