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DunhamSmash
27th Feb 2015, 23:16
Hey everybody,

We just posted this on the blog (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/nosgoth-state-of-play-february-2015) -- it's the latest in our regular series of blogs to keep you informed as to what's going on in the world of Nosgoth. It's re-posted in its entirety here as well for easy reference.

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It's been a month since our inaugural "State of Play" address (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/nosgoth-state-of-play-january-30-2015), which means it's time for another update regarding our future plans for Nosgoth!

In the four weeks since our last post, we released both of our new, promised classes: The Summoner (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/the-summoner-of-clan-melchahim-out-now) (February 3) and The Vanguard (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/the-vanguard-out-now) (a few days ago, February 25), while the team at Square Enix Montreal unleashed the long-awaited Spectator mode (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/spectator-mode-new-scoreboards-and-more) and some additional features just over a week ago. In other words, it's been an exciting time in Nosgoth's first month in Open Beta and we hope to keep that momentum going as we head into month number two…

Listed below are all the features we currently have planned to appear over the next several months and beyond. You may recognize some returning entries from last month, but we've made sure to update each one with a status report so you know where it currently stands in the schedule.


March 3 - Daily Rewards
This is the next feature due for release next week and it does exactly what its name implies -- rewards you for logging in and playing every single day!

Each reward will be grouped into multiple tiers, with the number of consecutive days logged determining what sort of reward you will receive. Additional Gold, Boosters, and Exclusive Skins are just a few of the various incentives we have planned.


March 3 - Scoreboard Improvements
We made some changes to the Scoreboards in a previous update, and we've been watching your reaction to it very closely. What we've heard loud and clear is that you wanted us to scale back the animations we introduced for a quicker load -- and that's exactly what we're going to do. Look for faster, more accessible scoreboards (and a few other improvements you've asked for) in the next patch.


http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/396/blog_large/2015-02-19-00014.jpg


Late March - Deceiver/ Summoner Evolved Skins
The classic Legacy of Kain-inspired Evolved Skins for both the Deceiver of Clan Zephonim and the Summoner of Clan Melchahim are still on schedule for March, but we've narrowed them down to a more specific release window later in the month. One of the really cool behind-the-scenes elements of these Skins is that original Crystal Dynamics Lead Character Artist and Art Director, Daniel Cabuco, has been an integral part in their development of this Skin as you can see in the image below. These have been a longtime coming and we can't wait to finally give them to you!


http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/391/blog_large/deceiver-evolved-20zephonim.jpg


March 31 - The Crucible Map
We've made great progress on this Turelim- (re: Tyrant) focused Vampire map since our last update. All sightlines have been established, the layout is finalized, and a ton of artwork has now been incorporated into the play space. Officially, we are now in the "polish and optimization" phase, which means we're spending the next several weeks ensuring that the map runs as smoothly as possible, while perfecting environment's appropriate mood and atmosphere.

We have a new shot of the in-progress map highlighted below. Expect a special Twitch developer stream that will dive into the Crucible's every detail just before release, on March 27.


http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/409/blog_large/201502274-crucible-inprogress.jpg


Spring - Drag the Body Mode (working title)
One of our favorite things to do lately is to play our unreleased "Drag the Body" game mode; and though its title is a "working" one, it does give you a pretty good idea of what to expect when finished. You could think of it as a modified take on the classic Capture the Flag concept, but with a corpse as the main attraction instead. Drag the Body has been IMMENSE fun to play since we discovered it during one of our experimental gameplay exercises, and the office has been a lot noisier ever since.

We'll have more details in the coming weeks in addition and a handful of "Alpha Testing" sessions that we plan on starting as special limited-time events sometime in the next few weeks. We're seriously excited about this one!


Spring - Daily Challenges
Our planned Daily Challenge initiative is still one of our high priorities, but we're still finalizing a lot of the details, which means that there's a chance that this one could come out a little further out than originally expected. Once we've hammered everything out, though, the Daily Challenges should add a lot of depth to the Nosgoth gameplay experience, while giving longtime vets to find out just how good they've become.


Spring - Prestige Skins
High-level Human Skins are still in the pipeline, but we don't have any additional details to add just yet. We'll keep you updated with more info when we have it!


Spring - New Banners and Drop-Rate Booster
For the item-hunting completionists out there, we'll be implanting a new Drop-Rate Booster to join our Gold and XP Boosters later this spring. We'll also bolster our Banner count -- including some for our "Drag the Body" alpha tests), so keep your eyes peeled for both of these as we head into the hotter months.

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Thus concludes our list of Nosgoth plans so far (not counting bug fix and balance patches). We'll be back again at the end of March with our next "State of Play!"

What do you think of to-do list so far? Do you have specific questions about our schedule? Let us know on our official forums and we'll see if we can include it in our next edition.

See you next time, and thanks for your continued dedication!

Vampmaster
27th Feb 2015, 23:40
Do you have any motive in mind for drag the body mode? Like why the vampires would be fighting over a body when the they can make as many dead bodies as they like just from killing the human team? I suggested some time ago, that it could revive as a either a coccooned elder or newly spawned warrior. It would be nice to incorporate that into the gameplay, although it's probably too late in development to add anything like that.

Also, can you show more screenshots of the Crucuble between now and the twitch stream?

Screwby-Dew
27th Feb 2015, 23:40
I'm looking forward to play that new game mod "Drag The Body" (I already like the sound of it) and the new map.
Thank you for letting us know what is coming up those next months !

Ysanoire
27th Feb 2015, 23:44
Woot!

Great to hear so many things are coming next month. Can't wait to try the new map and mode.

But but... where did crafting/trading go? Did something happen to it or just no new details?

RainaAudron
28th Feb 2015, 00:08
Why is there a tree in the most harshest of environments in Nosgoth? The Smokestack´s smoke is thickest there, it does not make sense for any vegetation to be alive in that region...

FireWorks_
28th Feb 2015, 00:25
Why is there a tree and grass in the most harshest of environments in Nosgoth? The Smokestack´s smoke is thickest there, it does not make sense for any vegetation to be alive in that region...

This is not a tree, it is some kind of "art". Made from copper and bronze. The patina looks green, so its easily confused with real leaves from a distance.

All forged in the Crucible area!

Ygdrasel
28th Feb 2015, 00:32
Why is there a tree in the most harshest of environments in Nosgoth? The Smokestack´s smoke is thickest there, it does not make sense for any vegetation to be alive in that region...

Perhaps some forms of Nosgothian vegetation thrive in harshness. Kind of how cacti thrive in miserable deserts. Actually, isn't the Turelim territory rather close to where Dark Eden was formed? Maybe some residual magics going on...

Just some thoughts. But if none of that is the case, that tree is a definite flaw that will need removal. Been waiting for a capture-the-flag mode since alpha though. Excited. :D

RainaAudron
28th Feb 2015, 00:35
Perhaps some forms of Nosgothian vegetation thrive in harshness. Kind of how cacti thrive in miserable deserts. Actually, isn't the Turelim territory rather close to where Dark Eden was formed? Maybe some residual magics going on...

Just some thoughts. But if none of that is the case, that tree is a definite flaw that will need removal.

There should not be any trees in an area full of volcanic activity, with ash falling and smoke blocking the sunlight...

FireWorks_
28th Feb 2015, 00:52
There should not be any trees in an area full of volcanic activity, with ash falling and smoke blocking the sunlight...

and yet there is, oh my kain, it is a miracle...


On topic.

Daily challenges vs daily reward tiers:
Please just dont make this as rediculous as the friend referral system. (From my 93 referred players at OB launch I got only the banner, meaning 5-9 reached lv20.)
Please test this thoroughly and then again and again. And fix what you find not working. I assume the conditions to unlock will be similar to the steam achievements that are still broken after almost 3 months now. Please, give this the extra time it needs before you release it or at least tell us that it is trash and we should "beta test" it and dont advertise it as the greatest thing since bread came sliced.

Ygdrasel
28th Feb 2015, 01:21
Do you have any motive in mind for drag the body mode? Like why the vampires would be fighting over a body when the they can make as many dead bodies as they like just from killing the human team? I suggested some time ago, that it could revive as a either a cocooned elder or newly spawned warrior. It would be nice to incorporate that into the gameplay, although it's probably too late in development to add anything like that.

Presumably, the humans would be fighting for it to avoid it being desecrated by the enemy (perhaps this is where the Necropolis has its beginnings :p) while the vampires would want it for food or recruitment. There is only a finite number of bodies, after all, given that the humans aren't complacent enough to just mope about nice and neat in giant blood farms anymore.

The_Hylden
28th Feb 2015, 01:25
and yet there is, oh my kain, it is a miracle...


On topic.



Er, that was perfectly on topic. The first post has many topics, including of the first shot of the new map in progress. How could questioning something about that shot be somehow off topic?


Perhaps some forms of Nosgothian vegetation thrive in harshness. Kind of how cacti thrive in miserable deserts. Actually, isn't the Turelim territory rather close to where Dark Eden was formed? Maybe some residual magics going on...

Just some thoughts. But if none of that is the case, that tree is a definite flaw that will need removal. Been waiting for a capture-the-flag mode since alpha though. Excited. :D

It is not near Dark Eden, no. There should be no trees growing. I can't imagine the Tyrants as faithful stewards of Nosgoth's nature to even try to make a garden in the heart of the apocalypse...

Ygdrasel
28th Feb 2015, 01:33
Er, that was perfectly on topic. The first post has many topics, including of the first shot of the new map in progress. How could questioning something about that shot be somehow off topic?



It is not near Dark Eden, no. There should be no trees growing. I can't imagine the Tyrants as faithful stewards of Nosgoth's nature to even try to make a garden in the heart of the apocalypse...

Hm. Rechecking my map, I was mistaken. Turelim territory would appear to be quite a ways south of that.

Ah well, in that case, definitely a fault.

Bafunary
28th Feb 2015, 06:02
I Hope to God you guys arent taking away the animation in the scoreboards thats such an innovated concept i dont think it should be ruined because a few people start complaining.



Daily challenges vs daily reward tiers:
Please just dont make this as rediculous as the friend referral system. (From my 93 referred players at OB launch I got only the banner, meaning 5-9 reached lv20.)
Please test this thoroughly and then again and again. And fix what you find not working. I assume the conditions to unlock will be similar to the steam achievements that are still broken after almost 3 months now. Please, give this the extra time it needs before you release it or at least tell us that it is trash and we should "beta test" it and dont advertise it as the greatest thing since bread came sliced.

how the hell did you get 93 referrals i can barely get 4 and they dont even play... and i really want the eternal scale... i agree with you 100%!!!!

DeputyPotato
28th Feb 2015, 08:23
This is not a tree, it is some kind of "art". Made from copper and bronze. The patina looks green, so its easily confused with real leaves from a distance.

All forged in the Crucible area!

Whatever crafting the Turelim did nature like things would not be among that,

I'm not too pleased with the crucible at all as the level of greenery is too high actually there should be no greenery it's supposed to be an despondant bleak volcanic ash laden wasteland city showing the grandeur of Turel the greatest of the sons of Kain, this B02 meridian look a like city is way too clean and humany. I feel this adheres to the lore 0%.

I would like to see a statue of the progenitor of every vampire clan in every city so Turel for the crucible and yes he needs the pointed bears.

-Konf-
28th Feb 2015, 08:48
Once again, fantastic issue!

It's a real pleasure seeing you guys at work and knowing what's coming our way. New content sounds really promising and I'm very excited for the months to come.

These letters really make me feel more connected to the favourite game as it gives us a glimpse of what's going on. You guys must be extremely busy at the moment developing all those things while also watching our feedback and fixing the bugs while we cry at the forums. Thank you for your hard work and see you at the Developer Stream! :wave:

Vampmaster
28th Feb 2015, 11:25
I imagine the trees are an attempt to break up the colour scheme and have it not look so empty. Also the player need to stand out in the environment. If the trees go, they would need to be replaced with something else.

The best I can think of at the moment is to give them a metallic look like this:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/32957453.jpg
http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/Metal-Tree-Harnessing-Solar-Power-in-Urban-Areas-2.jpg

As engineers, they'd be pretty good at metal shop.

Or what about some sort of abstract melted glass sculpture. Nothing overly detailed since they weren't such great craftsmen, just some shapes and colours and stuff to mske the olace more interesting.
http://www.pollittstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/mythic-fire-a.jpg
http://www.fisar.net/artglass/glass.pyramid-Big-Mama.jpg

RainaAudron
28th Feb 2015, 11:31
I imagine the trees are an attempt to break up the colour scheme and have it not look so empty.
That´s how it supposed to look like though - devoid of plant life, gray and black colour scheme to reflect the nature of the hostile land.

I wouldn´t mind dead trees here and there, but lush, green trees in that environment? Does not make sense to me...

Da_Wolv
28th Feb 2015, 12:17
Two concerns:

1) Make sure that different players have different challanges in a single day! Nothing worse than EVERYONE on the planet having to do, idk, get a double kill with Hell Strike and all of the sudden you got Summoner 4-stacks in every game!

2) A drop rate booster sounds nice in theory, but I doubt people will go for it. I mean the effects will need to be really significant! Gold and XP gain you can track easily, but noone knows the numbers behind the drop rates and a higher drop rate % can still mean you get nothing 10 matches in a row.

Vampmaster
28th Feb 2015, 12:40
That´s how it supposed to look like though - devoid of plant life, gray and black colour scheme to reflect the nature of the hostile land.

I wouldn´t mind dead trees here and there, but lush, green trees in that environment? Does not make sense to me...

Void of life, doesn't mean empty of everything else as well. The trees can still be replaced with something, so that the place doesn't look like a deserted car park. Like I was saying (I updated my message), there could be metalworks and stuff.

One of the soundtracks associated with the Turelim made me think of brass percussion instruments liky symbols or a large gong, so maybe they'd use a lot of that.

RainaAudron
28th Feb 2015, 13:07
Void of life, doesn't mean empty of everything else as well. The trees can still be replaced with something, so that the place doesn't look like a deserted car park. Like I was saying (I updated my message), there could be metalworks and stuff.

I never said the whole place should be devoid of any decoration at all, I simply stated that living trees do not fit in that environment... I also wish there were less flat roofs everywhere (almost all maps have those.. more slanted rooftops would add more variety to the same looking buildings). Where is lava, machinery and pipes btw? The signature parts of this area? Hopefully it´s just a bad shot or something...

FireWorks_
28th Feb 2015, 13:10
how the hell did you get 93 referrals i can barely get 4 and they dont even play... and i really want the eternal scale... i agree with you 100%!!!!

I was pretty actively spreading the link across the land, but it just doesnt help.

If I had just made smurfs instead, I would have have it unlocked already.
But I refuse to stomp newbies, cause it does just alienate the new players we actually need. Sadly, there are enough people out there thinking differently. A single pro smurf runs into dozens of players making them think the game is infested of hackers and has extremely bad matchmaking. It just that there is no hacker and the best MM system in the world couldnt handle it.

The whole referral mechanic is counter productive: It just sets an incentive to smurfing -> experienced players bashing on newbies -> feeling of "HAX" and "bad MM". And you have to do a lot of smurfing to get the rewards...
I dare to say the damage of this program nullifies or even outweights the positive impact it should have on the player numbers.

This is the blog of LoL where they pretty much what I just did. They changed their system to a maximum of FIVE referrals. The vast majority of counts with more referring players were abusive.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/upcoming-changes-refer-friend

Well, I hope someone in charge thinks of this again.

Ysanoire
28th Feb 2015, 13:46
The whole referral mechanic is counter productive: It just sets an incentive to smurfing -> experienced players bashing on newbies -> feeling of "HAX" and "bad MM". And you have to do a lot of smurfing to get the rewards...
I dare to say the damage of this program nullifies or even outweights the positive impact it should have on the player numbers.

Well, I hope someone in charge thinks of this again.

I do too. The requirements are ridiculous and like you said, an incentive for smurfing. If every person referred 25 friends, and those friends referred theirs, you'd cover the entire population of the Earth in about 6 steps.

If they don't want to give out runestones like candy, they can make the runestone reward the highest-tier one, it doesn't really matter how many referrals it takes, but requiring 25 referrals for the skins is silly.

Inrezairo
28th Feb 2015, 13:48
Do you have any motive in mind for drag the body mode? Like why the vampires would be fighting over a body when the they can make as many dead bodies as they like just from killing the human team? I suggested some time ago, that it could revive as a either a coccooned elder or newly spawned warrior. It would be nice to incorporate that into the gameplay, although it's probably too late in development to add anything like that.

Also, can you show more screenshots of the Crucuble between now and the twitch stream?

"It takes time and energy to create a vampire. I have not the strength" - Vorador Blood Omen 2

Having defeated humans transform into vampires during the short span of a game would highly trivialize the whole situation so I would say no thank you to that.



Perhaps some forms of Nosgothian vegetation thrive in harshness. Kind of how cacti thrive in miserable deserts. Actually, isn't the Turelim territory rather close to where Dark Eden was formed? Maybe some residual magics going on...

Cacti are a highly specialized form of plant life that has evolved through thousands of years to be able to thrive in the desert. Willow trees love moist soils and full sunlight so this is completely out of place in this environment. Also even if this was near Dark Eden the residual magics would have warped the tree so it would not look so healthy.

There is another issue I would like to raise about the Crucible screen too, there appears to be an open drain running right in the middle of the pathway and I cannot imagine any vampiric architect allowing potential pools of water to be in the middle of the paths. I think any drains would be off to the side or have a grate in over the top.

Also if it did rain in this area enough to warrant drains then the whole Turelim clan would be at risk of lahars due to the shear level of unconsolidated soot and tephra (volcanic ash) in the area.

Vampmaster
28th Feb 2015, 14:07
"It takes time and energy to create a vampire. I have not the strength" - Vorador Blood Omen 2

Having defeated humans transform into vampires during the short span of a game would highly trivialize the whole situation so I would say no thank you to that.

Where did I say anything about the corpse being a player who had died during the match? I only said it would be dumb of the vampires to fight a human over a piece of food, when its just as easy to kill and eat the one it's fighting. Having spent days/weeks preparing a corpse to become a vampire would make a far better motive to fight over it as they'd be pretty furious that all that time and energy had gone to waste.

Inrezairo
28th Feb 2015, 14:26
Where did I say anything about the corpse being a player who had died during the match? I only said it would be dumb of the vampires to fight a human over a piece of food, when its just as easy to kill and eat the one it's fighting. Having spent days/weeks preparing a corpse to become a vampire would make a far better motive to fight over it as they'd be pretty furious that all that time and energy had gone to waste.

Apologies that was the impression I got from your post. In terms of motivation it could be a simple as food for other members of the clans who are not on the battlefield, they could be taking food for wounded allies. It also has to be asked what would a body carefully prepared by the clans to become on of their own be doing out in the open in the first place?

Vampmaster
28th Feb 2015, 14:36
Well, it's certainly a more interesting explanation than the food one. Im sure there are plenty of other explanations as well. I just think it would be better to have one than not.

Also, we don't know if the effort required to create a necromantic vampire is the same as is needed for Voradors kind.

Alektus
28th Feb 2015, 15:05
Thank you guys for your great work. Good to know on which topics you work. Really looking forwar to the new map and the new game mode.

Ygdrasel
28th Feb 2015, 18:48
there appears to be an open drain running right in the middle of the pathway and I cannot imagine any vampiric architect allowing potential pools of water to be in the middle of the paths.

A pool of water is formed when water collects and is left standing. A drain...Well, it kinds of averts that potential problem what with being a drain and all.

@Raina: Aren't the flat roofs a gameplay necessity? It'd be a bit awkward to traverse slanted ones. If the devs were to do more with slants and angles and such though (and they absolutely should if it's feasible), I think it'd be a better fit to revise or incorporate that into other maps than the Crucible. The big boxy architecture seems to fit the Turelim. Hard, functional, solid...No fuss with arches or angles, just pure utility.

There is a distinct lack of pipes and lava though... :( Really hope it's just a bad shot.

RainaAudron
28th Feb 2015, 20:03
@Raina: Aren't the flat roofs a gameplay necessity? It'd be a bit awkward to traverse slanted ones. If the devs were to do more with slants and angles and such though (and they absolutely should if it's feasible), I think it'd be a better fit to revise or incorporate that into other maps than the Crucible. The big boxy architecture seems to fit the Turelim. Hard, functional, solid...No fuss with arches or angles, just pure utility.
Yeah, I know it´s mostly for traversing purposes, but I´m not talking about some very steep slopes, but something which will be still climbable but not completely flat either (Fane has a few).

The_Hylden
28th Feb 2015, 20:06
Vampmaster, the effort should be more, if anything; not less. Kain created the Lieutenants presumably (and for my money, probably intentionally) too fast, so each was weaker and weaker, creating the hierarchy he does. Melchiah is barely holding onto immortality. The clans, however, do not have the same problem with their offspring, suggesting that they took more time to create them. Also, as Daniel has stated, only elder vampires and the Lieutenants created offspring, further giving weight to how much strength and effort it takes (though, for status reasons this probably also is true). Remember how weak Raziel is from lack of feeding? When his soul energy is low? Or, how humans who've been fed on in SR1, but not killed, slump to their knees they're so weak? A soul portion breathed out of one should be much more taxing, just thinking about it, than a blood and essence transfusion. I am sure either method takes a very strong vampire to do it, however.


I believe the "drain" talk is not of the drain, itself, but of the canal leading to the drain right through the center of the path there. Water will fill that and any vampire stepping into it, well, will really be "stepping into it." :p heh

I agree, Ygdrasel. It will be great to hopefully get shots of the pipework and lava pathways. This concept art of the full map was more of what I was expecting to see:

http://www.nosgoth.com/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/000/306/blog/tt-map-overview-20copy.jpg

Could be the angle. Perhaps off to the left, or right, the real industrial city look happens.

Gugulug5000
28th Feb 2015, 20:09
Looking forward to these updates. I had some thoughts on other things that could possibly be included in the state of play:

-Game Release (end of closed beta): I realize it's still likely a ways off, but an estimate couldn't hurt (end of the year, beginning of next year, etc.)
-Human 'executions'
-the next batch of classes (also, likely a ways off, but I'm curious if there will be more classes before the game is officially released, or even if we can expect more this year or not).
-Steam trading cards (I personally don't care about these, but I know some people do)
-An inventory overhaul (I don't even know if this is in the works, but thought I'd ask)
-Clarification on the human prestige skins, will they all be coming out together (including Prophet and Vanguard), or will they be released as they're ready?


Also, regarding the whole 'vegetation in the Crucible' debacle that's been going down in this thread, ash is actually really good soil for plants to grow in. Plus, though there may not be much sunlight, there is still some. Some plants do a majority of their energy production at night when the sun isn't there to dry them up. Evolution can work extremely fast, especially when forced to, and these plants have had thousands of years to adapt. Plants can, and frequently do grow in volcanic regions, they just have to avoid getting burned up by lava, and if the Turelim have a city, then clearly the plants in the city have chosen a good spot to grow. So I don't find it too absurd that there are plants up in this region. I'd be more confused as to why the Turelim would be planting them though, so if there are going to be plants in the map, I'd prefer they look like they made their own way in, rather than appear to have been intentionally planted (a wild, unkempt look for the plants would be better than a neat little garden).

If we're going to nit pick about things though, why don't we take a look at how absurdly difficult it would be to pipe lava?

Vampmaster
28th Feb 2015, 20:38
@TheHylden, that was just a side note anyway - that Vorador's comment isn't the best reference for the necromantic vampires. Longer, or shorter, it wouldn't be a spur of the moment task and would need to be begun some time before the human interrupt it. The main point was that if time and energy had gone into preparing the corpse to be a vampire, it would be a more valuable prize to fight over.

The_Hylden
28th Feb 2015, 21:04
Gugulug5000, you're talking about forests that can grow long after the volcanic activity is done. Once the volcanic activity dies down, the soot stops raining, the sun comes back and, most importantly, rain falls again, the soil can become fertile for plant life. Some plant life can grow near volcanic hotspots, but they have water and sun access. Despite the drain in the image, there really should only be fire and soot in the sky, which would make it next to impossible for rain clouds to form. You're also not taking this very crucial aspect into account: this is Nosgoth, a dying world. Vegetation and all life are getting more scarce as the centuries pass, due to the fall of the Pillars. Forests hanging on nearer to the coastline, ok. A tree grows in the heart of a volcanic land, made worse intentionally by the vampires to belch, constantly, soot, fire, and ash into the air? That doesn't compute.


Or, let's put it another way, to sum up why this seems odd. What if you turned on the Lord of the Rings, having never seen any of the films, and you saw this at Mordor:



Would you be ok with reasoning that out, or would you instinctively go, "What in the world are those trees doing there?!" Notwithstanding the quick mock-up aspect of it, heh

Gugulug5000
28th Feb 2015, 21:21
@TheHylden: I get entirely what you're saying, and yes I agree it would be weird to see lush, green trees next to rivers of lava, but I don't think the vampires would build their city so close to the active volcano that it can be destroyed. They would build it far enough away for it to be safe, and if it's safe for vampires to live there, it's likely relatively safe for plants too. They are bringing lava in on aqueducts basically, so I think they're still a decent ways away from the active volcano. I'm not saying there should be lush gardens of vegetation up in the area (like the tree), but I do think some vegetation could grow (like those redish plants in the planters in the same screen shot). My whole point is, not all vegetation is necessarily bad, some plants do manage to grow in harsh environments. I totally concede the fact that the tree does look out of place though, but I think they could rework it rather than cut it entirely.

ApollosBow
1st Mar 2015, 00:04
Take out trees and replace with Turel tribute statues like Fane map...........delay the map if need be.

Inrezairo
1st Mar 2015, 00:09
By it's very nature volcanic activity can be hard to predict, true the Turelim would have been foolish to go too close however volcanic vents move through a system of dykes beneath the Earth and this can result in new vents opening up elsewhere so they run the risk regardless, the linked picture (http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/44603017.jpg) is a good example showing the guts of an old volcano where the sides have been eroded away with a dyke radiating away from it.

Also if the Turelim are harnessing geothermal properties to create the smokestack they would need to be relatively close but likely not in the main valley to help reduce the risk and damage of Pyroclastic flows and lahars, although the odd Lava Bomb (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Lava-bomb-02.jpg) would still find them which come in various sizes and are dotted all over the place in that picture.

Yes some plants, particularly hardy grasses will be able to grow under normal (ie not Nosgoth corruption) conditions but not a weeping willow, that should be saved for another human map I think.



I believe the "drain" talk is not of the drain, itself, but of the canal leading to the drain right through the center of the path there. Water will fill that and any vampire stepping into it, well, will really be "stepping into it." :p heh

Many thanks Hylden, yes you are correct it was the awkward placing of the channel I was referring to, I don't think it's needed.

I'm not a massive fan of the boobie statues either, an atlas (https://kalipinckney.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/port_merion_atlas.jpg) style Turelim holding the building up could have been a better option in my opinion.

One think I do like is the shot of gold/yellow in the image however I would be expecting more of these hints of fiery colour pallets to be dotted around to add to the atmosphere and feeling of heat.

Vampmaster
11th Mar 2015, 10:19
Still no comment from Psyonix. :( They could at least respond to say they take the trees issue seriously. It's a matter of the map needing to fit the backstory. Between the amount of smoke blocking out the sunlight in Turels area and the effect of the corrupted pillars on the land, there should be hardly any plant life there at all. The explanation that they were brought in from other places wouldn't work this time, because this location is too inhospitable for them to survive for even a short time.

I'm sure there would have been time to make a few changes when the feedback in this thread was first given, and I did try to suggest some alternatives that wouldn't need huge changes, such as giving the trees an artificial metal look. That would only need a retexture. If it's by a volcano, maybe there'd be petrified creatures, plants, etc from centuries before. Sort of like in Pompeii. Another think that could be doneretexture.

Ysanoire
11th Mar 2015, 13:14
I honestly don't think the tree is that much of a deal.

Daylight is dimmed out, but not completely cut off. It's not endless night. SR1 sunlight burns fledgelings; a tree would probably survive, if not thrive, on it.

The place can't be actually getting uncontrollably flooded with lava or a city couldn't exist there. As long as live magma doesn't destroy vegetation, volvanic soil is actually GOOD for plant life - it's rich in minerals.

"It doesn't look right" is not a valid argument.

Lord_Aevum
11th Mar 2015, 13:52
If you read the discussion on the previous pages, users are not complaining about trees in the wasteland simply because they don't look right, but because we know they aren't right. Paraphrasing some of the main points for you:

- Nosgoth is a dying wasteland in the last throes of its corruption.
- There is no more densely polluted zone in the world than the region below the Smokestack.
- Geologically speaking, plant life is difficult to explain here.
- The Turelim are industrialist engineers who have no thematic association with the force of nature (quite the opposite).

Let's also return to the source material:


But the Pillars, Kain ultimately realized, were more than just a human edifice - the health of the Pillars was tied inextricably into the health of the land. With the Pillars left unrestored, corruption seeped slowly into the land like a poison, turning his empire into an irredeemable wasteland.


For example, one of the regions of the game was inhabited by a race of mechanical-engineering-oriented vampires. Based on their goals and behaviors and on the intended smoky, mechanical environment in which they lived, I composed sounds and music which were thick, slow, and thumping, like big machines far away.

Going by Occam's Razor, you would not expect to see verdant plant life anywhere in the world. Why would we want to perform "what-if" mental acrobatics to justify such healthy trees decorating this most barren and apocalyptic of all territories, when it would not take long to simply replace them with alternative objects in UE3?

Ygdrasel
11th Mar 2015, 17:52
I believe the "drain" talk is not of the drain, itself, but of the canal leading to the drain right through the center of the path there. Water will fill that and any vampire stepping into it, well, will really be "stepping into it." :p heh

The drain would prevent the canal from filling, averting any problem. And that tree does need to go...But no word from Psyonix yet. A Turel statue would be all kinds of awesome too, replacing either the tree or that statue with the tits.

BigBaconBastard
11th Mar 2015, 20:35
Things a tree needs to grow:
Sunlight - there is definitely sunlight here even with all the crap in the air (like Ysanoire said, it's not endless night), trees still grow in our world even with all of the crap we've thrown into the air
Water - the drain indicates that it does indeed rain here
Nutrients - ash is rich in nutrients, making this area better for plant life than areas with "Nosgoth-wasteland-soil", unless the corruption also makes ash less nutritious somehow

This isn't Mordor people. The Turelim would need wood for their furnaces anyway (unless they somehow managed to invent tires to burn eternally), so it seems like they would pick a location near a heavily forested area for their furnaces, but they're not going to build their city where lava is going to burn them up. There we go, plant life justified.

Vampmaster
11th Mar 2015, 21:28
Things a tree needs to grow:
Sunlight - there is definitely sunlight here even with all the crap in the air (like Ysanoire said, it's not endless night), trees still grow in our world even with all of the crap we've thrown into the air
Water - the drain indicates that it does indeed rain here
Nutrients - ash is rich in nutrients, making this area better for plant life than areas with "Nosgoth-wasteland-soil", unless the corruption also makes ash less nutritious somehow

This isn't Mordor people. The Turelim would need wood for their furnaces anyway (unless they somehow managed to invent tires to burn eternally), so it seems like they would pick a location near a heavily forested area for their furnaces, but they're not going to build their city where lava is going to burn them up. There we go, plant life justified.

It's not just badly polluted, the vampires intentionally blocked out the sun to walk around in the daytime. Endless night was the whole point of building the smokestacks and making the colcano erupt continuously. The industrial revolution was only a couple of hundred years ago, and the vampires have been at it for 1000 years on purpose and the pillars, which the health of the land is directly dependant on in Nosgoth have been corrupt/broken for twice that long. We've been discussing this with the original developers of Soul Reaver for over 10 years.

As you move away from the volcano, the smokestacks and the pillars, it becomes more viable that there could be plantlife (the humans or the animals the humans eat have to eat something, right?), but the Turelim territory is the least likely place in Nosgoth for any vegetation.

Inrezairo
11th Mar 2015, 22:39
To add to Vampmaster's post any reduction in light has an effect on plant growth conversely making a plant grow faster as it reaches out, searching for light.
This (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-59V8p2tf9hg/T2DrDWBAD0I/AAAAAAAAASo/SVFmWgwf-K4/s1600/day+12.jpg) picture highlights this rather well with one plant grown on a sunny windowsill and another placed inside a cupboard. (source experiment) (http://amazinglittleminds.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/runner-bean-experiment.html)

I have performed this experiment myself with watercress and had both containers placed next to each other on a sunny sill the only difference being a piece of thin paper that was placed over the top of one container and even a piece of paper had a noticeable effect on the growth. If a piece of paper can make a difference I have a feeling that the smokestack would have an even more profound effect.

Also returning the the ash issue, yes ash does contain nutrients that can be beneficial to plant life, however this benefit only comes after the ash has been broken down and the nutrients are released into the soils (if there are any soils to begin with). This is further limited by the type and amount of ash, if there is lots such as would likely be the case around the smokestack then the ash can actually form a blanket covering soil that chokes them of oxygen creating sterile soil due to micro-organisms not having the oxygen they need to breakdown the ash into the useful nutrients, living plants can also die due to their pores being clogged and also effectively choked to death.

Vampmaster
11th Mar 2015, 23:04
Yes, some plants grow faster in the dark, but they can't keep it up forever, and die if they don't find light sooner or later.

Inrezairo
11th Mar 2015, 23:24
Apologies I thought that was obvious so I didn't draw attention to it like I perhaps should have done. Although this trick is used by commercial growers to speed up their plants and there are some plants that get on just fine in very low light conditions, though not willows or runner beans.

It may also be worth therefore pointing out for those that choose not to follow the links that the plant grown in reduced light is much paler and does not look very healthy at all so the lush green of the disputed tree should not be possible.

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 00:39
- Nosgoth is a dying wasteland in the last throes of its corruption.

Maybe it's dying, but it's not dead. If there were no plants in the world humans couldn't live either.


There is no more densely polluted zone in the world than the region below the Smokestack.
- The Turelim are industrialist engineers who have no thematic association with the force of nature (quite the opposite).

Yes, they're super advanced industrially for a maedieval society. Beijing is a highly polluted place, but you wouldn't say plantlife can't exist there.



- Geologically speaking, plant life is difficult to explain here.

Geologically speaking, I already pointed out volcanic soils are fertile.

So basically yes, it's a "it doesn't look right" argumentation. It's not "mental acrobatics" to try to decide if a tree would necessarily have to die there. We're not talking about gardens of Babylon, it's one tree and some heathery-looking straw plants.


Endless night was the whole point of building the smokestacks and making the colcano erupt continuously.

But it's NOT endless night or we wouldn't be able to see anything.

Lord_Aevum
16th Mar 2015, 03:06
Hi Ysanoire – I think it's important to clarify that my message was just a brief summary encouraging review of the posts made here by others, and little else. Those original posts are not really negated by quote replying with one-liner deflections to me.

To misinterpret the views on offer with the phrase "it doesn't look right" is simply a straw man contention, and eristically inclined. There is more substance than that in here, if you will only peruse the thread and engage.

It would be tedious for me to reiterate what has been said already, other than to add that this region is, on top of all else, arctic, and that a rationale from Daniel Cabuco exists detailing exactly how the humans subsist without any imperative for wild flora.

Hashakgik888
16th Mar 2015, 08:34
Yes, they're super advanced industrially for a maedieval society. Beijing is a highly polluted place, but you wouldn't say plantlife can't exist there.


Hi, Ysa! As you might recall, I live in Beijing. Plants are obviously still alive here, but they don't exactly thrive (and neither do the people). You might have heard of the 90-minute TED-style pollution documentary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6X2uwlQGQM) by the journalist Chai Jing that immediately went viral in China a couple of weeks ago; the pollution here is very, very bad, and people are more upset about it than you think they are. That's beside the point, though; the relevant issue is plant life (though you can bet humans in Nosgoth are suffering from chronic respiratory illness and cancers, too). Beijing isn't even the most polluted city in the world, and it isn't even the most polluted in China; India (http://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8094597/india-air-pollution-deaths) is far worse. To be sure, air pollution absolutely does negatively affect plants. From one study (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/01-015.htm#effects): "Air pollution injury to plants can be evident in several ways. Injury to foliage may be visible in a short time and appear as necrotic lesions (dead tissue), or it can develop slowly as a yellowing or chlorosis of the leaf. There may be a reduction in growth of various portions of a plant. Plants may be killed outright, but they usually do not succumb until they have suffered recurrent injury." There are many other (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=pollution+affecting+plants&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=jo4GVeevINbeoATjnICYCw&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQgQMwAA) such studies.

Now, the average (http://qz.com/197786/six-years-of-bejing-air-pollution-summed-up-in-one-scary-chart/) day in Beijing since 2008 has been about 100 on the air quality index, although it is often much higher (usually 150 or so). The WHO recommends no higher than 30; Los Angeles, famously America's most polluted city, hovers around 40. Paris shut down all private automobile traffic last spring when the AQI hit 60 to 80, and I think it got up to 160 at the peak of that incident. In this kind of air quality, plants can obviously still grow. However, when it's substantially worse - which happens often - after extended exposure, it does actually significantly hurt plant life. Right now the AQI is 350; in the peaks of winter and summer, when the most power is being used for heating and cooling, respectively, it often gets up to 400 or 500, even 600, and stays there for days at a time. in January 2014, it was at 8-900 for about a week straight. I was here then, too, and you couldn't see more than 20 feet. Data have shown that agriculture does suffer during times like these; Beijing is in a kind of natural bowl formed by hills and mountains around it, so the pollution lingers and affects Hebei province, as well, which surrounds it (Hebei is also a very industrial area, as well, so the pollution is from there, too). The smog doesn't really dissipate until it either rains or gets very windy. In a week of 800+ on the AQI and no wind, the damage to plant life does become measurable, let alone more than one week, or months, or even years, as would be the case in the Crucible.

Now, I do not believe that the level of pollution is uniform in all of Nosgoth; concentration levels must vary depending on factors of wind and physical distance from the smokestacks, which is why Provance, etc, deep in the southern human areas can still be relatively green. But in the heart of the area that produces the smog, it must certainly be a thick, choking haze. Remember, the Chicxulub asteroid wasn't what killed the dinosaurs; the thick blanket of particles in the air that blocked out all the sunlight for years and devastated the food chain was what killed them. If the smokestacks are producing enough smog to make sunlight levels safe for fledglings (which they are), it may not be up to the level of the dinosaurs' extinction level event, but it is certainly at the level of, say, the 79 CE Vesuvius eruption: a gigantic, towering, geomantically engineered artificial volcano that constantly spews out ash and soot. That level of eruption would most definitely be at levels sufficient to block out the sun to a degree that would harm plant life. As has been mention, weeping willows in particular require very high levels of sunlight, so it's a bad choice to put that kind of tree there. And even red leaves still depend on chloroplasts, so both the willow and the red plants should be very pale in order to reflect the levels of sunlight in addition to the necrosis, etc mentioned in sources above.

TL;DR: Yes, plants can live in moderate levels of smog, but they don't thrive in prolonged heavy levels, and even moderate levels do hurt them.

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 10:18
Just to reiterate what I was saying before, the vampires have been intentionally polluting the air for a 1000 years. That's far worse than anything that's happened on earth. The Crucible is right at the source of it all and the health of the land is also being worn away by the corruption from the pillars. That's likely far worse that Beijing would be.

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 14:07
Hi, Ysa! As you might recall, I live in Beijing.

Hey! I do! In fact, I rather think you're the reason China came to my mind when I was looking for "some example of some 'polluted' place" lol.



If the smokestacks are producing enough smog to make sunlight levels safe for fledglings (which they are),

Do we really know that? Remind me where from.


TL;DR: Yes, plants can live in moderate levels of smog, but they don't thrive in prolonged heavy levels, and even moderate levels do hurt them.

I know and I already agreed they probably wouldn't thrive (and yes, maybe a willow isn't the best choice), but 'it would hurt them' is not the same as 'they would die for sure'. Again, we're talking about one or two trees for decoration, which the vampires may have been actively caring for.

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 15:45
Here's one reference to the smoke stacks. There's plenty others as well.

"Huge furnaces were built to belch smoke into the sky, shielding the land from the poisonous effects of the sun."
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/224920/manuals/manual.pdf

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 15:55
The same source you are quoting also says that "All fledglings are vulnerable to the harmful rays of sunlight, whereas their older counterparts have largely evolved beyond this vulnerability". So it doesn't completely shield fledgelings (and we can see in the game it burns them).

[edit] not that it's entirely conclusive either way because it's not like we know the exact lux value needed to burn a fledgeling or sustain a tree.

RainaAudron
16th Mar 2015, 16:22
Again, we're talking about one or two trees for decoration, which the vampires may have been actively caring for.

Why would they??? They don´t need them.

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 16:26
Why wouldn't they?

Vampires used to be human, they like nice things. Look at the statues in Fane (created by exiles in a tough situation). If they build statues they may want to cultivate a tree. Maybe they would care for it precisely because not too much grows outside their city.

RainaAudron
16th Mar 2015, 16:33
Vampires used to be human, they like nice things. Look at the statues in Fane (created by exiles in a tough situation). If they build statues they may want to cultivate a tree. Maybe they would care for it precisely because not too much grows outside their city.

Are you serious? Turelim as gardeners? It does not make any sense...

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 16:35
Like I was suggesting earlier, if they're just for decoration, why not some artificial structures that would be easier to maintain, since they were pretty good with metalwork and forging things. I gave some examples of metal tree like structures earlier, which would require less work from the devs since it's just a re-texture and at least would be possible to exist there.

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 16:35
Are you serious? Turelim as gardeners? It does not make any sense...

It makes as much sense as making any other decorative object. I think it's natural to cherish stuff that's rare where you live.

RainaAudron
16th Mar 2015, 16:46
It makes as much sense as making any other decorative object. I think it's natural to cherish stuff that's rare where you live.

No, it does not. Plants are living things, which are of no use to vampires. Elaborate architecture is the display of their wealth, but I fail to see why would a plant be of any importance...

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 16:50
I fail to see why it would be of less importance than a statue of a priestess with boobies.

Vorrutin
16th Mar 2015, 16:55
Because vampires are pretty religious in the end.
Every statue and mural is a depiction of something that has to do with either their beliefs or allegiances.
And the more grandiose and numerous the statues are, the more they are able to flaunt their wealth and power.
Since vampires are also very narcissistic.
They have the need to show superiority, plants don't really do that.
Plants hold no value for vampires, why would they even wish to display a tree when they could erect a huge statue depicting their patriarch?

Hashakgik888
16th Mar 2015, 16:56
Hey! I do! In fact, I rather think you're the reason China came to my mind when I was looking for "some example of some 'polluted' place" lol.



Do we really know that? Remind me where from.



I know and I already agreed they probably wouldn't thrive (and yes, maybe a willow isn't the best choice), but 'it would hurt them' is not the same as 'they would die for sure'. Again, we're talking about one or two trees for decoration, which the vampires may have been actively caring for.

As Vampmaster wrote, the manual says that the smokestack produces smog to protect vampires. That's the entire reason it's there; this is not controversial and does not require debating. The other quote about how fledglings are vulnerable does not mean that they are vulnerable in spite of the smog, it means they are inherently vulnerable to the sunlight and would be harmed without it. As I said, the smog is not uniformly distributed, so there would naturally be gaps in the coverage and fluctuations in the saturation. Also, for example, in those patches where you can throw vamps into sunlight, I recall the one in the Necropolis, which is just about as far away from the Crucible as you can get and is populated by the weakest vampires, so it makes sense that they'd still be vulnerable. No wonder they spend their time underground... And the Sunlight Glyph, of course, is powerfully concentrated sunlight, not normal amounts. "Normal amounts," of course, being "feeble" in the words of the Elder God. Feeble, that is, since they're blocked by the smog.

Also, the Razielim have statues and lush decorations because that's what they care about; the Razielim are decadent aesthetes who preferred to surround themselves with beauty. The Turelim were not. Daniel Cabuco clearly explained the characters of each clan in this thread (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=565&p=1936); an appreciation for aesthetics is not included. This is also why their stonework, as shown in the images of the Crucible, is rough and utilitarian. They simply don't care for beautiful things. Furthermore, vampires in general have no need for horticulture or agriculture, since those are human wastes of time (along with commerce, etc, as Kain reminded us!). Vampires also do not remember their past lives or act human in any way, as is clearly evidenced by the fact that none of the Lieutenants had any inkling of their shared Sarafan past.

BigBaconBastard
16th Mar 2015, 18:48
This is the most ridiculous discussion I've ever read... It's a tree!

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 19:20
The other quote about how fledglings are vulnerable does not mean that they are vulnerable in spite of the smog,

But it does if we can burn them with it. The way I remember it the patches of light were caused by cracks in the architecture and hurt fledgelings living indoors. The outside didn't have any patches and had adult vampires. It wasn't just Mechahim fledgelings that got burned btw, Dumahim too.

Either way, SR1 is in a different time, different place (I don't remember any Turelim fledgelings that could be burned) so I'm not sure we can draw conclusions.


Also, the Razielim have statues and lush decorations because that's what they care about; the Razielim are decadent aesthetes who preferred to surround themselves with beauty. The Turelim were not. Daniel Cabuco clearly explained the characters of each clan in this thread (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=565&p=1936); an appreciation for aesthetics is not included.

Come on, those were very general descriptions of the clans' tendencies. And the makers of this map are developers just as much as Daniel. He didn't say they hated nature either.

Korevas
16th Mar 2015, 19:21
I fail to see why it would be of less importance than a statue of a priestess with boobies.

Just so you know, I was with you until that post.

RainaAudron
16th Mar 2015, 19:37
But it does if we can burn them with it. The way I remember it the patches of light were caused by cracks in the architecture and hurt fledgelings living indoors. The outside didn't have any patches and had adult vampires. It wasn't just Mechahim fledgelings that got burned btw, Dumahim too.

The technical limitations of SR1 would not allow for there to be realistic patches of sunlight in open areas and there were only adults outdoors in the whole game.

Also, it would be completely out of character for the Turelim to care for trees, especially in a super harsh environment... They have an industrial society, if anything, they´d be cutting them down to provide fuel for the furnaces.

Ysanoire
16th Mar 2015, 19:49
? They could have had patches of light outdoors the same way they had them indoors.

Ygdrasel
16th Mar 2015, 20:45
Do we really know that? Remind me where from.

Why else would they be doing it? Because they like the look of smog?

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 20:49
Why else would they be doing it? Because they like the look of smog?

It's an aweful lot of trouble when they can just make something themselves that doesn't need constant care.

Ygdrasel
16th Mar 2015, 21:28
Just replace the tree with a statue of Turel belching fire.

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 21:32
Just replace the tree with a statue of Turel belching fire.

I'm pretty sure there's already a Turel statue planned for the Crucible. Also, are you sure there's just one tree? Designers would rarely put just one in a map unless it's some sort of centrepiece, which it doesn't look like from the picture.

Ygdrasel
16th Mar 2015, 21:43
I'm pretty sure there's already a Turel statue planned for the Crucible. Also, are you sure there's just one tree? Designers would rarely put just one in a map unless it's some sort of centrepiece, which it doesn't look like from the picture.

Big metal spikes then? Topped with torches, perhaps?

Varulven
16th Mar 2015, 22:05
Vamps have nothing to do with plants?
Remember the flowers in the Fane ;)

Ygdrasel
16th Mar 2015, 22:12
Vamps have nothing to do with plants?
Remember the flowers in the Fane ;)

Vaguely. Weren't they potted or something though? As opposed to growing straight from diseased volcanic lands inhabited by a militant industrial clan...

Varulven
16th Mar 2015, 22:19
Vaguely. Weren't they potted or something though? As opposed to growing straight from diseased volcanic lands inhabited by a militant industrial clan...

I just wanted to say that Vampires do care for such thing like plants and such... somehow.
They may look weird, they are warriors... but also a monster can have a sense for beauty :)

Ygdrasel
16th Mar 2015, 22:25
I just wanted to say that Vampires do care for such thing like plants and such... somehow.
They may look weird, they are warriors... but also a monster can have a sense for beauty :)

Indeed. Raziel himself noted the smog-blocked skies as a thing of "beauty" in Soul Reaver though so I don't think their idea of beauty is like ours...

Varulven
16th Mar 2015, 22:35
Indeed. Raziel himself noted the smog-blocked skies as a thing of "beauty" in Soul Reaver though so I don't think their idea of beauty is like ours...

Not every vampire is like Raziel. I think there's alot of diversity among them... Like not every human is the same.

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2015, 22:55
It's not just about them liking the way trees look, it's a matter of the amount of effort required to keep the plants alive with barely any light and full of polluted air. Even if they thought plants were pretty, they have other priorities.

RainaAudron
17th Mar 2015, 11:07
Indeed. Raziel himself noted the smog-blocked skies as a thing of "beauty" in Soul Reaver though so I don't think their idea of beauty is like ours...

Where did this equation they like smoke = they like plants come from? It doesn´t make any sense.

They rever smoke, which prevents plants to grow and mainly protects the fledglings. Where do you see them revering organic creatures? If anything, they consider them expendable. They are their dark gods in their view afterall...

Humans need plants for several reasons (oxygen, food from crops, etc.). Vampires do not.

Vampmaster
17th Mar 2015, 11:22
Where did this equation they like smoke = they like plants come from? It´s illogical.

They rever smoke, because it prevents plants to grow and protects the fledglings. Where do you see them revering organic creatures? If anything, they consider them expendable. They are their dark gods in their view afterall...

Humans need plants for several reasons (oxygen, food from crops, etc.) Vampires do not.

If they revere smoke, it's because it shields them from the sun. It doesn't have anything to with plants. Rather than hating plants, I think it's more that they don't care one way or the other. I think what one person might have been suggesting is that they need wood as something to burn, but if even they did, it would be easier for them to import it from elsewhere than try to make trees grow in an environment that couldn't support them. It's more likely they resorted to coal and other fossil fuels for burning.

RainaAudron
17th Mar 2015, 11:34
Exactly, that´s what I said - my message was edited...

Lomonop
17th Mar 2015, 12:55
The outside didn't have any patches and had adult vampires. It wasn't just Mechahim fledgelings that got burned btw, Dumahim too.


The technical limitations of SR1 would not allow for there to be realistic patches of sunlight in open areas and there were only adults outdoors in the whole game.



? They could have had patches of light outdoors the same way they had them indoors.

There was at least one “patch” of sunlight outside (or more accurately a patch of shadow). I think it was in the area where you go to the place Dumah is staked to his throne. Unfortunately I don’t have a video as proof. I only found this on my fifth playthrough or something like that:
There are some hills/mountains in this area and there is a fledgling vampire hiding in the shadows cast by these hills/mountains (I think it is a Dumahim fledgling). If you force him out of the pass (which is quite a distance, so carrying him when he’s unconscious is probably the best way), he’ll burn from the sunlight.

This is on the PC version by the way, I’m not sure if it is different on the PS version (or Dreamcast).

I like to think that the smoke is less thick during the Soul Reaver game than it is during the intro of Soul Reaver (and during Nosgoth), because the smokestack is not (that) active anymore. Causing the new fledglings to die in sunlight. However, there might be evidence in the game that contradicts this (e.g. images of an active smoke stack in the backdrop of the Lake of the Dead).

RainaAudron
17th Mar 2015, 13:00
There was at least one “patch” of sunlight outside (or more accurately a patch of shadow).
If you are outside, it will burn fledglings. However, you are inside Dumah´s area, so there are sun rays. Game does not have shadow detection.


There are some hills/mountains in this area and there is a fledgling vampire hiding in the shadows cast by these hills/mountains (I think it is a Dumahim fledgling). If you force him out of the pass (which is quite a distance, so carrying him when he’s unconscious is probably the best way), he’ll burn from the sunlight.

That´s correct, but he is inside a tunnel, where there is no light. Same is the case with a Turelim near the top of lighthouse.

Bafunary
17th Mar 2015, 22:51
Hey I was watching my friend play the tutorials and you guys should really add it as a map I think it'd be fun for the vamps to take the fight to the "training base". Im talking about the Hunters Tutorial as well as the reavers how it extends and is way Different than all the maps out there along side the tyrants crucible it would be a different style map more linear and close quarters allowing more advantage to alchemists and scouts as well as tyrants and summoners what do people think im really excited about this idea and i want to share it as much as possible!!!!!!!!!

Ygdrasel
18th Mar 2015, 03:51
Where did this equation they like smoke = they like plants come from? It doesn´t make any sense.

They revere smoke, which prevents plants to grow and mainly protects the fledglings. Where do you see them revering organic creatures? If anything, they consider them expendable. They are their dark gods in their view afterall...

Humans need plants for several reasons (oxygen, food from crops, etc.). Vampires do not.

...I think you may have missed my point. "Indeed." was to the "vampires have a sense of beauty" thing. I went on to observe that said sense of beauty likely has bugger all to do with flowers given that vampires aren't likely to share the human fondness for such things.

@Bafunary: The tutorial maps...You mean those little enclosed nothing areas? How is that a good idea for a map? Humans in general have plenty enough advantage already with their crazy damage output, camping, and superhuman sight lines. And Summoners hardly need the extra help with Hellstrike and rooftop cowardice.

Beyond that, what nitwit vampire would lead the human armies to where they train fledglings?

Bafunary
18th Mar 2015, 12:27
well it would be the vamps attacking the human where they train and of course some parts need to be added and subtracted but itd be beneficial for tyrant , reavers hazebombs etc etc all around good for all a different style is needed and i think this could be nice