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Da_Wolv
27th Feb 2015, 12:54
Patchnotes 25.02.15
Vampire Melee

All LMB melee attacks have been re-timed to allow players to either instigate another attack, or resume movement, more quickly without dodging, to allow more flexibility and mobility in melee combat. The animations are unchanged, but the time you are locked into each attack is shorter. In practice, this increases melee attack speed by 10-20% per class, and damage has been reduced accordingly to maintain previous DPS values.

The travel distance of melee has also been reduced slightly in combination with the base movement speed increases (above). In total, this should make melee more responsive and skillful, but less capable of gap closing via button mashing. We will be keeping a very close eye on this change and tuning as necessary based on your feedback.


1) I don't feel a big difference in the animation speed, I only notice the run speed increase and it feels very slugish now to perform melee hits + dodge roll to traverse. I cannot tell what is faster now.

2) Charged melee hits are useless now. The damage output is not worth the wait plus since you changed the range too, it most of the time doesn't get me where I want to go.
(Granted, we are used to the old distance and learned to quickly determine wether or not a hit will land or come short, and it will get better the more we get used to it) but I don't really see the 'skillfulness' you tried to achieve with it.

All I see now is vampires desperately trying to melee but always coming up a few inches short of reaching their target.

maddpadd
27th Feb 2015, 15:42
Agreed!
My reaver is sad!
I dont feel like the new melee tweaks have added skill but instead encourage getting in close & just spamming rmb due to the shortcomings of charge attacks now.

Feels like there is a timing issue with charge attacks after a roll now, often if I charge straight from a roll/dodge & end up getting no distance.
Now I have to ether wait till the roll/dodge has finished then charge up or I have to hold charge a bit longer to to avoid doing the "mini wiff!" <---yeah I named it ;) either way it takes to long to charge up a decent attack now....either gonna get shot in the face as I charge or wiff!

-Konf-
27th Feb 2015, 20:10
Surprised that there wasn't a heated discussion going on about this change by this time. The changes, that are supposed to presumably "allow flexibility" seem to do nothing, but make Vampires slower.

Before I begin, I really don't think this change should have been implemented alongside Vanguard patch. Getting used to playing against the new class while it's being assessed from a balance point of view takes away the attention from this change, which I find to be a fairly big deal. Here are my thoughts on it so far:

1) Letting Vampires strafe sideways faster is great. Think it'd be fine to leave that in the game. The rest of the changes make no sense to me.

2) The changes are supposed to bring more mobility. They simply don't. You don't run around a Human in melee combat, you either hit them when it's safe to DPS them down, or you dodge around trying to avoid shots while dealing damage.

3) The changes are supposed to make attacking "skilful". So you allow players a choice of moving in between attack animations, is that the point of it? Because by moving around (walking, not dodging) you accomplish nothing except for being killed. And you still need to mash that LMB to kill someone anyway. Literally nothing has changed.

4) This change is supposed to discourage button mashing to catch up to a Human. Well, at least give us options to chase them somehow then? Increased movement speed doesn't do much and with reduced attack lunge it takes forever to chase someone down. Playing Vampires in my experience feels slower, not faster, so I don't see the change accomplishing much in that regard yet again.

So where does that leave us?

Mobility: Vampires really didn't get any real boost to their combat mobility. In my experience they actually feel slower and more "grounded" so to speak. It's harder to get out of the fight and I don't feel more mobile at the slightest, especially in combat.

Combat: As a result of this change I feel like Vampires received an indirect nerf. Yes, let's agree that overall DPS output remained the same with the increased attack speed. So what happened is that Vampires lost their burst and killing potential while getting more sustained damage. Now is that a good change? Noting that Vampires are already considered to be at a disadvantage, reducing their kill potential and giving them sustained damage instead gives Humans more time to DPS and more time to react to unexpected attacks.

Vampires are meant to dominate at close range. I really don't feel like I'm the master at close range anymore, but what I do feel is that my mobility has actually been hindered while also giving Humans more time to kill me.

Looking forward to watching this discussion, and especially to the feedback from our competitive community once they conduct a few games. To me personally this change just doesn't feel right and it seems like it's putting Vampires one step back.

TheDreamcrusher
27th Feb 2015, 20:33
Well said Konf. I have to say that the biggest nerf was the decrease in lunge distance with charged melee. I don't consider Sentinel melee to be very good, but now that the lunge distance is shorter it's getting close to terrible. Almost Tyrant terrible. What's the point of Wing Flap if I can't close the maximum distance with a max charge melee? How am I supposed to sneak up on humans if I can't lunge my way into a fight before they really notice the Vampire audio growl cue? That's just one example. Reaver, on the other hand, now can do a crazy amount of burst with Haste on because of the attack speed increase.

The thing is that vampires aren't supposed to be in a DPS race with humans while taking shots to the face. It's supposed to be hit and run until making a killing blow won't cost you your life while the human party gets wiped. Now I have 2-3 Vanguards every match who make this incredibly difficult because 2-3 Vanguards can make your health vanish in 3-4 shots if they all hit you. Vanguards basically require spending abilities to beat them because of their shield.

-Konf-
27th Feb 2015, 20:50
The thing is that vampires aren't supposed to be in a DPS race with humans while taking shots to the face. It's supposed to be hit and run until making a killing blow won't cost you your life while the human party gets wiped.
Exactly. The thing is, with these changes I feel like the risk/reward of engaging and fighting is out of balance. You feel slower, you can't get out of the fight fast enough and when you commit trying to secure a kill - you find yourself lacking the kill potential due to lower burst. All of that makes it a lot harder for Vampires to get a favourable exchange, while exposing themselves to more risk.

And like you said, especially with Vanguards, which bring way too much to the table at close range. Introducing this class certainly makes it harder to properly assess the situation with the actual melee changes, but I'm trying to not take them into the equation too much. Even without Vanguard, the experience remains the same. All that Vanguard does is makes it even worse, and by a lot.

Da_Wolv
27th Feb 2015, 22:11
Exactly. The thing is, with these changes I feel like the risk/reward of engaging and fighting is out of balance. You feel slower, you can't get out of the fight fast enough and when you commit trying to secure a kill - you find yourself lacking the kill potential due to lower burst. All of that makes it a lot harder for Vampires to get a favourable exchange, while exposing themselves to more risk.

And like you said, especially with Vanguards, which bring way too much to the table at close range. Introducing this class certainly makes it harder to properly assess the situation with the actual melee changes, but I'm trying to not take them into the equation too much. Even without Vanguard, the experience remains the same. All that Vanguard does is makes it even worse, and by a lot.

The problem with the vanguard is that he does about the same damage to you that you deal to him. Against a good human team, that means you can't just drop on them and start whaling with standart melee; but charged hits from conceilment are harder to pull off now, because of the range reduction, and if they hit, its hardly game changning.

Reaver and Summoner feel good with the new melee. Reaver can pop Evasion when things get tough and Summoner has pets to soak damage. The other classes, interestingly also the deceiver (eventhough I play Illusions) just have no chance of getting close undetected and getting out without taking the enemy out.

Aggggh
28th Feb 2015, 02:56
-snip-

It also makes stopping power on human weapons much much more powerful. I can't count the times where I've missed a kill at dry humping range because my character is having a siezure from getting hit by something.

Ironically, a lot of early discussion was implying that it was harder for humans to escape :|

uNborn-
28th Feb 2015, 03:47
Alright,

I've been meaning to post about this new melee adjustment for a while now but wanted to scrim a few times to feel it out properly. Well I got to scrim it and can confirm that it is just plain awful. The Skill level and ceiling of this game plummeted last patch. Vampire was always the harder side in high level ESL game play and now has become even more so. Stopping power, human CC, and AOE on humans is basically unavoidable now and if somehow by a miracle you get around you have already took too much damage to do cause any damage to the human players. The speed of the attack is irrelevent when you cant close distance fast enough. Furthmore I've noticed that this "Increased vampire melee skill" that was being sold in the patch notes is actually completely the other way around. There is far more LMB spamming then before as it is way easier to track and hit close range on humans. Before the patch was implemented it was easy to over shoot your target with melee so you had to make sure and predict movements and directions to get the hit off. Not so anymore. Since the damage per hit was nerfed as well even when you are successfully spamming a target with close range melees you cant get enough damage off in time before you are ultimately focused down immediately. This is even more evident in high level games with coordinated human players.

Vampires rely on burst damage to be effective along with massive coordination with their teammates, and I fail to see how this patch has done anything that it was said it was released to do except make it easier for people in low level games and low skill be able to connect multiple melee attacks against equally sub par human players. It feels horrible. I highly recommend you reinstate the melee dodge level back to it was before and or the damage per melee hit at the very least.

I truly hope the devs take this thread into consideration as I can guarantee the competitive community as a whole dislikes this change intensely.\

Just my .02.

PencileyePirate
28th Feb 2015, 04:10
Vampires rely on burst damage to be effective along with massive coordination with their teammates, and I fail to see how this patch has done anything that it was said it was released to do except make it easier for people in low level games and low skill be able to connect multiple melee attacks against equally sub par human players. It feels horrible. I highly recommend you reinstate the melee dodge level back to it was before and or the damage per melee hit at the very least.

QFT. Revert the vampire melee changes, please.

ApollosBow
28th Feb 2015, 04:40
I like the changes. Sorry.

TheDreamcrusher
28th Feb 2015, 05:18
I like the changes. Sorry.

I'd like to hear your thoughts. You like all the changes equally? I mean, I don't, which is why I mentioned lunge distance on charged melee strikes. I do like the faster movement and the faster completion of attacking animations. Like I said, Reaver goes on a rampage when Haste and Bloodlust activates. My rant was the amount of damage I'm taking while trying to get into melee right now with high damage Vanguards.

TapxJames
28th Feb 2015, 05:18
What were you thinking giving vampires sustained dps over burst when they already had problems facing humans who knew how to aim? The numbers might come out to near the same but the gameplay is not, right now humans have even more of an advantage. It shouldn't take 5 hits to kill someone after a fully charged melee attack connects.


Revert the **** changes or up the **** dps.

_Kine_
28th Feb 2015, 10:04
I don't fully understand what the melee changes have done or undone.

What I do know is;

Mash LMB

For better or for worse. On the plus side, newbs like me find it much easier to fight now :P

riccetto80
28th Feb 2015, 16:54
1) I don't feel a big difference in the animation speed, I only notice the run speed increase and it feels very slugish now to perform melee hits + dodge roll to traverse. I cannot tell what is faster now.

2) Charged melee hits are useless now. The damage output is not worth the wait plus since you changed the range too, it most of the time doesn't get me where I want to go.
(Granted, we are used to the old distance and learned to quickly determine wether or not a hit will land or come short, and it will get better the more we get used to it) but I don't really see the 'skillfulness' you tried to achieve with it.

All I see now is vampires desperately trying to melee but always coming up a few inches short of reaching their target.

TOTALLY AGREE

ApollosBow
28th Feb 2015, 19:56
I'd like to hear your thoughts. You like all the changes equally? I mean, I don't, which is why I mentioned lunge distance on charged melee strikes. I do like the faster movement and the faster completion of attacking animations. Like I said, Reaver goes on a rampage when Haste and Bloodlust activates. My rant was the amount of damage I'm taking while trying to get into melee right now with high damage Vanguards.

I mainly like it because I noticed it makes the Tyrant more playable than before (he was way to slow, maybe still is, but at least he's not as slow as before), and I never used charged melees during combat,only to enter the fight with if I had not been spotted yet (as the first strike) or to jump at someone unexpectedly when they are chasing around a corner, I still find I'm able to use it effectively within the range of those scenarios.

O and I wouldnt worry about Vanguard for long, I'm willing to bet that a damage nerf is on its way in a hotfix soon, at least for that impaler axe (please god for that impaler axe)

Psyonix_Corey
1st Mar 2015, 18:54
We're certainly paying attention to this thread, but the consensus elsewhere is nowhere near 100%. I think a balance could be struck between new and old, and I get the argument about burst damage loss being a real problem in high level play.

In the short term we'll fix charged melee to do its old damage. and take a look at stopping power vs. the new melee distances.

riccetto80
1st Mar 2015, 20:04
elsewhere = ???

why all this changes to charged meele, distance etc etc was not in the change log of the patch?

Psyonix_Corey
1st Mar 2015, 20:07
elsewhere = ???

why all this changes to charged meele, distance etc etc was not in the change log of the patch?

Charged melee distance was not changed. If it's behaving differently, that is a bug that was not caught.

TheDreamcrusher
1st Mar 2015, 21:01
This post may end up being long by the time I'm done but I want to paint a picture of my experiences with the recent vampire melee changes.

There's now a priority to use high damage abilities like Sweeping Kick, Puncture, and Hellstrike that allow for mobility and damage. Higher exposure times just lead to punishment for the vampire because humans all have several weapons and abilities that do spike damage and at range. I don't mean Vanguards only, it's also Scouts and Prophets.

I've witnessed in several games where vampire players are now coordinating to solely use abilities for kills because entering melee just doesn't cut it. If the desired outcome is to encourage that kind of hit and run, then Psyonix may have succeeded but vampires are locked to action every 15-25 seconds, probably longer with setup and positioning time. Otherwise they just stay out of line of sight. The games feel slower as a result and I honestly don't care for it.

Reaver
Previously in fights I could lunge into a target with charged melee, roll away for confusion, and do another charged melee back into the target and proceed to finish them. That is definitely not the case now. I fall short of my target frequently and am taking damage more often because I have to run to a target. The lower damage on charged melee doesn't really add up to just doing regular attacks as fast as possible. The net effect for the Reaver is that charged melee strikes are less valuable.

With Vanguard healing in the game, Shadow Smoke is less valuable. Reavers are having to use Choking Haze to keep their damage output up.

There's been an indirect nerf to Haste. There was a problem before as well with Haste on because the attack distance was shortened during melee and charged melee strikes (again I don't know if this is intentional or a bug, but I dislike it a lot). Well, using Haste now is crippling because that effect still occurs. If I'm not kissing a human I can't hit him and if I happen to lose track of him in my wild swinging he can back off very easily because... the lunge from charged melee won't get me to them again. Running to them (even with Haste) results in taking damage and dying, where as a long-distance lunge may have saved me. What I said in previous posts about Haste and the melee speed change allowing a Reaver to go on a rampage, I take it back. I get punished hard because the lower melee damage translates to higher exposure time, even with the increased speed.

My point for the Reaver is this: rolling and lunging with charged melee resulted in less damage taken and more damage dealt. Straight up running is an easy target.

Tyrant
Probably the vampire that benefited the most from the increased attack and movement speed, but not in all ways. Nobody has ever liked how slow the Tyrant moved. It was plain difficult to catch humans. Melee-roll cancel sometimes worked but you had to be very precise with it or humans would just outpace you. Now he runs and attacks faster, but does less damage which is bad because he's a big, easy target. Even with Enrage, the increased exposure time for Tyrant by doing less damage per hit faster results in more damage taken and more deaths. My experiences have been pretty consistent so I'm either sucking badly lately, the changes had a bad outcome, or maybe a mixture of both.

Sentinel
I'm using my example from above in a previous post, but the melee changes have shut down some of the ways I used to play Sentinel. One playstyle was to use a charged melee attack to strike an unsuspecting human, use Puncture, followed by Takeoff for a swift kill followed up by a Kidnap to help the rest of my team. That option is gone. Sentinel melee has never been great in my eyes, but now I simply can't get to targets. Another thing I've noticed is that I simply can't follow up an attack after Wing Flap anymore. I used to be able to knock a target down and go after them but now charged melee won't get me there and Wing Flap is commonly followed up by a human's crowd control ability. Bad news.

Deceiver
I can't comment much because the times I've tried Deceiver has been in games with 2 or more Vanguards and I've been absolutely destroyed every time I appeared. Just can't make an attack and get away. Shield Bash wipes out illusions and axes stick in you with Shroud on giving away your position. Such is life I guess.

Summoner
Wildly opposite to the other vampires of having trouble with distance, I now have trouble with control due to the speed of attacks on her charged melee strikes. Summoner was in a very good spot prior to the patch as far as melee was concerned; high damage, zoomy-charged melee. I became pretty adept with her. She would dash forward, spin, and then the damage would be dealt at the very end of the animation so aiming it was a matter of timing. Now she dashes and spins so fast I usually bypass a target and when I don't I have a hard time aiming the spin. It can take Vanguards by surprise by getting around their shield, but that's if I actually manage the dexterity of doing so.

edit: Just saw Corey's reply after I was done typing. Charged melee strikes are definitely not behaving like they were before as far as distance is concerned. Was stopping power on humans weapons upped? That may explain some things, but my examples for Reaver and Sentinel are from instances where I wasn't under attack.

riccetto80
1st Mar 2015, 22:26
Summoner
Wildly opposite to the other vampires of having trouble with distance, I now have trouble with control due to the speed of attacks on her charged melee strikes. Summoner was in a very good spot prior to the patch as far as melee was concerned; high damage, zoomy-charged melee. I became pretty adept with her. She would dash forward, spin, and then the damage would be dealt at the very end of the animation so aiming it was a matter of timing. Now she dashes and spins so fast I usually bypass a target and when I don't I have a hard time aiming the spin. It can take Vanguards by surprise by getting around their shield, but that's if I actually manage the dexterity of doing so.

Is the same about deceiver, i play a lot deceiver, almost only deceiver as vampire with very aggressive style...

with timing and skill was possible during melee animation moving out of sight enough to avoid being hit and hit the enemy in the end of animation, or follow their roll and hit anyway, now is impossible is too fast, most time you simple bypass the target, also the easy target, or duo stopping power you fall too short and miss by inches and in the meantime you get killed or heavy damaged :( + all what you said about this class specially if a vanguard is in front of you... result? i dont use it anymore :( i switch to summoner atm, but dont suit really my style because you have to support the team, with deceiver i was the "rambo" of the team, and i loved it.

Guess i will stop play and wait next patch, hoping they will fix.

TendrilSavant
1st Mar 2015, 23:59
We're certainly paying attention to this thread, but the consensus elsewhere is nowhere near 100%. I think a balance could be struck between new and old, and I get the argument about burst damage loss being a real problem in high level play.

In the short term we'll fix charged melee to do its old damage. and take a look at stopping power vs. the new melee distances.
Why not just adjust human damage to compensate? The Vanguard is getting lower damage next patch right? And his DPS is supposedly worse than that of Alch and Hunter. I was personally surprised that a large change to vampire melee wasn't accompanied with an overall human balance pass as well. Better yet, I would suggest revisiting the idea of removing Hit-scan from human weapons.

I'm in the minority, but I find the new melee better for balance; at least theoretically. In practice it doesn't feel good because humans still have all the subtle advantages they've always had. But personally I didn't like that playing vampire before meant figuring out what's most "efficient;" i.e. if a vampire loadout could not dispatch a human in roughly 3 secs it wasn't viable.

Protekt1
2nd Mar 2015, 00:29
Most vamps feel like they die just way too quickly with the addition of another high damage attacker. So I am not even really sure whether the adjustments are great or bad. If I had to say something, I would say I think vampires were better before the patch, but it is hard to say because of vanguard.

Overall the game is much less enjoyable than it was prior to the patch, at least for playing as vampire. Even hit and run tactics seems to fall quite short of success when the opponent team has 2-3 healing abilities.

--Ram--
2nd Mar 2015, 09:48
Game is definitely less fun than pre patch now, vamps choose annoying hide and chip strategies because direct engagements don't work. If my team chooses reaver or deceiver now in pub games I feel like the team is gimped, which is a horrible state for the game to be in.

Ysanoire
2nd Mar 2015, 10:28
I dont' have any super in-depth feedback on this, but I do feel the reduced melee range is a bit of a problem. Humans always seem "so close and yet so far".



All I see now is vampires desperately trying to melee but always coming up a few inches short of reaching their target.

Yeah.

maddpadd
2nd Mar 2015, 11:11
Charged melee distance was not changed. If it's behaving differently, that is a bug that was not caught.

Definitely something up then.
Charged melees are often failing to get decent distance, Very noticeable with my reaver after rolling/dodging I have to hold down charge a lot longer or I often just dont get good distance.

Was going to try & replicate my problem on a private server & capture it ..........but!..........Charged melee seems fine on a empty server, no probs even after rolling.

Jumped into a pub game straight after & my reaver is not charging good in it, just feels so off!
Also sometimes feels like when I am in close doing quick melees that my sensitivity is locking up & I cant turn & track quickly.....often the case when this happens I run out off mouse mat trying to adjust, this never happened till last weeks patch.

So empty server charged melee seems fine but on a full server charged melee is inconsistent (even after dying & trying dodging into charged melee in a away from the action part on the map is inconsistent) I would be fair to assume that whatever is affecting charged melee could well be affecting ordinary quick melee also.
Could it be some sort off stopping power bug..........like its being persistent?

Edit: just thought............could it be the axes causing this?

AdmiralPPR
2nd Mar 2015, 11:17
Surprised that there wasn't a heated discussion going on about this change by this time. The changes, that are supposed to presumably "allow flexibility" seem to do nothing, but make Vampires slower.


Same here - I thought that it was just my imagination :D

Da_Wolv
2nd Mar 2015, 11:31
We're certainly paying attention to this thread, but the consensus elsewhere is nowhere near 100%. I think a balance could be struck between new and old, and I get the argument about burst damage loss being a real problem in high level play.

In the short term we'll fix charged melee to do its old damage. and take a look at stopping power vs. the new melee distances.

If the distance wasn't meant to change then something went horribly wrong, because its very noticable.




I've witnessed in several games where vampire players are now coordinating to solely use abilities for kills because entering melee just doesn't cut it. If the desired outcome is to encourage that kind of hit and run, then Psyonix may have succeeded but vampires are locked to action every 15-25 seconds, probably longer with setup and positioning time. Otherwise they just stay out of line of sight. The games feel slower as a result and I honestly don't care for it.


Which is the reason why so many games don't reach the 30 kill threshhold in 10min. anymore.
Before the patch, reaching the round's kill threshhold took somewhere between 8 and 9 1/2 minutes. Now I frequently have games that only go up to 25 for the winning side.

riccetto80
2nd Mar 2015, 17:12
If the distance wasn't meant to change then something went horribly wrong, because its very noticable.

Right, i ask myself if before release a patch (specially a patch who change damage, speed, etc, not just a generic bug fix patch, but a patch who change the gameplay) they do internal testing, and how is possible no one during internal testing notice this issues... :(

at least the good part is most of the negative changes we face now is not intended and will be fixed, hopefully.

-Konf-
3rd Mar 2015, 05:04
Ever since the patch I was having a number of some horrible experiences and trying to get good samples. Yesterday I came across a situation that I found completely infuriating and that, in my opinion, can server as a good example of how bad some of the changes are.

Here's a clip (sorry for the low quality, but that's all I can do):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWjEY6OJ6VE

Basically what happened is the Hunter in the clip was one or two hits away from dead. The first attack that I performed after my charged melee was supposed (according to my expectations) to get him. Instead, a Hunter simply SPRINTED OFF in between being tagged by melee attacks and escaped to safety. And there was no way for me to catch up to him.

TendrilSavant
3rd Mar 2015, 05:24
Instead, a Hunter simply SPRINTED OFF in between being tagged by melee attacks and escaped to safety. And there was no way for me to catch up to him.
This was also quite common before the patch though.

However, Your clip does highlight another aspect of human mechanics that makes chasing them more frustrating with the current melee: the ability to sprint while reloading. The nerf to human reloading times didn't help too much with concentrated fire and made this types of situations more common.

-Konf-
3rd Mar 2015, 06:06
This was also quite common before the patch though.
Before the patch I would have been able to connect my melee attacks on him in succession and in case 1st one didn't make it the 2nd one certainly would have. Before the patch that Hunter would've been dead under the bridge before he cut the corner, or shortly after.

What this clip is also meant to highlight is that I had literally zero options chasing him while he escaped what should have been a guaranteed death. That there is NO added mobility, only hindered one. He would've outran me in either way. Vampires do need to be able to close gaps, if not with melee attacks, then with something else.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not being salty here, but merely trying to evaluate what the patch has actually added to the gameplay and whether it has achieved what was intended or did more harm than good.

_Kine_
3rd Mar 2015, 06:37
As a new player I found it terribly annoying that even with Fleet Footed, vamps could chain melee attacks on me while I ran full sprint.

This was incredibly unfair and one of the factors that made vampires strong down at the lower MMRs.

If a vampire made a mistake, or the human did well in a 1v1 - that vampire has an escape mechanism and could back off anytime he wanted.

Humans have no such thing. They are forced to deal with the duel to conclusion. Fleet Footed, was our escape mechanism at the cost of other more useful perks.

And TBH - I like all but one of the indirect effect melee changes have brought about. I am making more kills as vampire with the more forgiving attack speed and animation. At the same time, mistakes on the vampire's part during melee brawls are being punished more often giving me more Human wins post patch.

Longer staging time for vampires ? The higher need to coordinate abilities as vampires now ?

Explain to me how that is a bad thing ?

Humans required a higher degree of coordination to win before. Now after the patch, that prerequisite has been extended to Vampires as well. If anything that just made things even.


@ Konf's video

You jumped into a pack of 4 humans, got bola'd after missing your melee strike, human ran back to the safety of his friends and you're complaining not able to claim that kill ?

I must have been playing Nosgoth wrong all this time then coz in my books - that play should never be rewarded with a kill.

One thing I have an issue with the new melee is the lunge distance. Otherwise, all the unintended changes this melee brought about is doing lower MMR matches hella good.

-Konf-
3rd Mar 2015, 08:42
You jumped into a pack of 4 humans, got bola'd after missing your melee strike, human ran back to the safety of his friends and you're complaining not able to claim that kill ?

I must have been playing Nosgoth wrong all this time then coz in my books - that play should never be rewarded with a kill.
I joined the teamfight on the back of my Tyrant's charge, disengaged straight away and there was a solo Human going rambo and jumping out of sight of his team into a straight 1v1. He realised his mistake and ran for his life (he didn't bola me to escape to safety, he was dying under that bridge). I made a bad play? Don't think so. That Hunter did, and I couldn't even punish him for it.

I must be playing Nosgoth wrong, because in my books when a Human separates and runs off on his own into a 1v1 fight out of sight of his team - he's not supposed to be rewarded with a free and easy escape from right under the melee attacks.

And again, I'm not here to complain about what could've been a kill. I'm here to try to evaluate what the patch changes have actually accomplished and whether they affect the gameplay in a good or bad way.

--Ram--
3rd Mar 2015, 09:51
I joined the teamfight on the back of my Tyrant's charge, disengaged straight away and there was a solo Human going rambo and jumping out of sight of his team into a straight 1v1. He realised his mistake and ran for his life (he didn't bola me to escape to safety, he was dying under that bridge). I made a bad play? Don't think so. That Hunter did, and I couldn't even punish him for it.

I must be playing Nosgoth wrong, because in my books when a Human separates and runs off on his own into a 1v1 fight out of sight of his team - he's not supposed to be rewarded with a free and easy escape from right under the melee attacks.

And again, I'm not here to complain about what could've been a kill. I'm here to try to evaluate what the patch changes have actually accomplished and whether they affect the gameplay in a good or bad way.

QFT

Human's don't need and should not ever have a hard "escape" mechanism. They have every other advantage imaginable. Vampires are meant to be superior agile melee fighters. At the moment they are about as agile as potatoes.

Frankly I think fleet footed should be deleted and people should be informed from the outset via tutorials that you cannot outrun a vampire. First that should be made true though.

If vamp baseline speed cannot be increased further due to balance at rookie level, then I can't help think that they should have some sort of long cooldown (thinking say 30-45 seconds) universal ability that gives them a speed boost of say 50% for 2 seconds. The way I see it something like this is likely to be wasted by rookies, but could be used more effectively by players who know the game and see opportunities to maximize its value.

This could be used to do the three things below, but only one per fight due to the restrictive cooldown.

1. Engage.
2. Escape.
3. Chase down ridiculous Road Runner / Benny Hill players.

This is only a suggestion and may be a rubbish idea, but I do think that vamps need some extra X factor to make them more speedy and threatening.


vamps could chain melee attacks on me while I ran full sprint. This was incredibly unfair


No, it wasn't remotely unfair, it is by design. The fact that the same thing didn't happen in Konfs video is showing that the current state of vampire movement is flawed. Sure I can understand the guy getting away if he didn't get hit. But after taking the stopping power hit there is no way he should get away, regardless of all other variables such as corners/fleet footed/speed boost on weapon.


@ Konf's video
You jumped into a pack of 4 humans, got bola'd after missing your melee strike, human ran back to the safety of his friends and you're complaining not able to claim that kill ?

I must have been playing Nosgoth wrong all this time then coz in my books - that play should never be rewarded with a kill.


This account of what happened could not be more untrue, I think you need to watch again. Konf engaged with his tyrants charge, landed infect, and then chased an isolated guy for what should have been a simple kill. In terms of this thread topic however, what happened prior to the part where the hunter got hit and immediately sprinted off without possibility of a follow up hit, is entirely beside the point of the video.

On re-watching I think that the reason the follow up was so hard was likely due to the stopping power of explosive shot, but if that is the case then I feel the deceiver should still be faster since the human had also just taken a hit.

_Kine_
3rd Mar 2015, 10:36
I made a bad play? Don't think so. That Hunter did, and I couldn't even punish him for it.

I'm here to try to evaluate what the patch changes have actually accomplished and whether they affect the gameplay in a good or bad way.



Human's don't need and should not ever have a hard "escape" mechanism.

@ Konf - sorry if my comment sounded critical of your game as that was not my intention. I actually watched that video several times before commenting and once more before this reply in slow mo.

0:05 - You committed to an attack and jumped down
0:08 - Tyrant came charging in, knocking hunter AWAY to the side
0:08 - Hunter rolled in response to audio cue
0:08 - Infect made contact mid roll
0:09 - Hunter reflexed a Bola and fell down the platform
0:10 - You 'fell / followed' him down and disengaged first, Hunter started shooting you as you ran off
0:12 - Hunter unloaded explosives,
0:13 - Konf semi charged an attack
0:14 - Melee made contact behind Hunter as he already started his sprint
0:15 - Second melee missed, hitting the woodwork and Hunter escapes safely.

1. Infect did not slowed him down
2. Semi charged melee hit him at almost max distance when he was ALREADY sprinting away
3. But main factor why Hunter escaped was your missed follow up strike hitting the woodwork AND blocking your run

I do not make idle replies. When I post, I actually meant what I said:

That Hunter had the upperhand in that scenario right from the start. He was never in my humble opinion at risk of getting killed.

I did not say you made a bad play, read my previous comment again.. I only said in that scenario a kill was never on the cards. Part lucky knock by Tyrant, part successful Bola and if he had HP (I assumed he didn't) he could've finished you off if he dodged away instead of running.

Hunter made no mistake from what I saw
Missed melee hitting woodwork and blocking yourself allowed Hunter to gain distance
There was nothing to punish
Video does not show anything about the new melee gimping vamps (specifically in that scenario)

You missed, He ran, Simple as that.

Check that video again at 0:13


@ --Ram--

Can Fleet Footed be considered a hard escape mechanism ?
Vamps can scale walls to cut him off
Vamps still have approach abilities to close in (haste, step, pounce, charge, flying etc)
Fact that humans lose an actual perk just to use Fleet Footed is balance enough

And it is unfair simply because Humans do not have an option to disengage. Vampires do.

--Ram--
3rd Mar 2015, 11:00
Can Fleet Footed be considered a hard escape mechanism ?
And it is unfair simply because Humans do not have an option to disengage. Vampires do.

Saying it would be unfair if humans can't disengage/escape is akin to saying it is unfair that my reaver can't hit you from 100m away.
No it isn't a hard escape. When I said that I was meaning it more generally, in that humans defense is:

1. Ranged attacks
2. Strong risk free/easy disables
3. Focus fire, and being able to do it while spread out to limit aoe/mass stun potential.
4. Constant easy-mode healing from stations.
5. Choosing the optimal location to fight (TDM)

Escapes/speed should never be included on that list.


If I try to list vampires current strengths?

1. Melee superiority - questionable, or in the case of vanguard just no.
2. Speed - questionable, marginal at best.

^these two to me are absolutely core and incredibly lacking in reality.

3. Ability to climb/access high areas of maps - yes, woohoo go vamps you won a category. Unless we are talking Vanguards on fane, but that is a story for another time ;)

4. Ambushing - basically nullified by TDM camping in open areas, only possible when people make mistakes or when human team is re positioning.

5. Healing via eating corpses - very often denied due to respawns being too fast and unpredictable, and outrageous cross map lines of sight on many maps. Generally risky unless you get a clean fast 4 person wipe. Entirely inferior to heal station healing.

6. Tyrant HP - entirely nullified by gigantic hitbox and sluggish movement.
7. Smoke - its good.



Vamps can scale walls to cut him off

Scaling a wall to cut someone off will almost never result in you gaining on them unless you are a sentinel and can fly after them.


Fact that humans lose an actual perk just to use Fleet Footed is balance enough
If this is to continue being a thing at the very least vampires should have to option to also have a fleet footed perk to counteract.


In regards to your new account of the video I agree with most points. However (a) the tyrant never knocked the guy, and (b) the second melee attacking missing. It was lined up fine, there was just no way Konf could keep up with the guy to land it. Anyway if you think humans have the right to disengage immediately following a melee assault then that is your opinion, but personally I find it totally against the asymmetric design of the game.

Da_Wolv
3rd Mar 2015, 11:08
I have to agree with Konf here.

This type of play is stereotypical for the current gameplay.
Before, hitting a human in close range stopped him long enough for you to chain hits together to make him unable to escape.
If for whatever reason you missed 2 hits, or you missed one and he started running with Fleet Footed, it was POSSIBLE (though not likely) for the human to get away.
Now, you can't even stay in melee range when you hit the first and second hit.

Worse then that is engaging in the first place.
Against good human teams, engaging requires charged hits around corners and/or jumping from roofs. But if you find yourself in battle and no human is directly next to you, good luck getting a hit on any of them! I have tried this with a clanmate in private matches: A good human player will not allow you to get close enough for more than 3 hits. Skilled vampire players were able to use the melee and dodge mechanics to avoid hits while closing in on their target, now you have 2 options:
1) Go straight for your target, taking lots of damage. OR
2) Dodge the attacks while trying to get close, but end up loosing ground on the human that is slowly walking backwards, unimpressed by your acrobatics.

-Konf-
3rd Mar 2015, 12:48
2. Semi charged melee hit him at almost max distance when he was ALREADY sprinting away
3. But main factor why Hunter escaped was your missed follow up strike hitting the woodwork AND blocking your run
It doesn't matter if he started a sprint - I landed a melee attack on him that ought to slow him down enough to allow me an opening for pursuit. I didn't "miss" my attack, in fact I aimed it exactly where the slowed Hunter should have been - it didn't connect because it lacked range, which was fine pre-patch. It didn't connect because the slow combined with lack of lunge is so insufficient that it allows Humans to disengage Vampire combat at will. That is what I'm trying to illustrate with that video - that Vampires lack mobility in combat as a result of the patch. On top of that, Vampires have a very limited and unreliable potential to chase, that's another major point I'm trying to show.

Sorry about stirring it up so much, I wasn't expecting such a reaction and didn't mean to deviate the discussion from the topic at hand. Just wanted to bring a visual to my experience with the patch to help try to evaluate whether the changes are good for the gameplay or bad. Let's move on guys!

_Kine_
3rd Mar 2015, 13:05
I don't think this is deviating.

It comes down to this - did the new melee reduced regular attack lunge distance ?

I know for sure charged melee distance is reduced but unsure about regular attack.

That miss in the video that led to the Hunter escaping was on a regular LMB strike.

If new melee caused the attack distance on regular hits to fall short, then that video is valid argument.

--Ram--
3rd Mar 2015, 13:13
Leaving this here as a refresher



Vampire Melee

All LMB melee attacks have been re-timed to allow players to either instigate another attack, or resume movement, more quickly without dodging, to allow more flexibility and mobility in melee combat. The animations are unchanged, but the time you are locked into each attack is shorter. In practice, this increases melee attack speed by 10-20% per class, and damage has been reduced accordingly to maintain previous DPS values.

The travel distance of melee has also been reduced slightly in combination with the base movement speed increases (above). In total, this should make melee more responsive and skillful, but less capable of gap closing via button mashing. We will be keeping a very close eye on this change and tuning as necessary based on your feedback.

riccetto80
3rd Mar 2015, 13:49
i play a lot a lot deceiver, konf is right, period.

before 25 February patch that would be an easy kill, after patch who suppose to help vampire mobility, is impossible for deceiver do the kill as before.

and is impossible do also rolling to trying to close the gap...


seems on today patch, 3 march, the charged meele attack is untouched, at least is not write anything about back to old damage on game update... :(

Da_Wolv
3rd Mar 2015, 13:51
thx Ram,

and I would like to know, what they have planned as a replacement of "button mashing". Because we need to close gaps as Vampires. The whole game is based around vampires trying to close the gap without taking so much damage they can't get the kill when they are close. So they take away gap closing via "button mashing" (a term, which I feel oversimplifies the actual task), and left us with no other way to get into fight. Running straight at them, even with the 5% higher movement speed, just gets you shot in the face, because your movement is more predictable.

--Ram--
3rd Mar 2015, 13:57
thx Ram,

and I would like to know, what they have planned as a replacement of "button mashing".

Agreed that the qualifier "by button mashing" seems fairly redundant, since there is no other satisfactory way to perform the task. AD strafing while running certainly saw a significant improvement, but it still isn't a fast enough way to approach to warrant its use. If vamps were 25% faster it may actually work.

riccetto80
3rd Mar 2015, 13:58
Leaving this here as a refresher

yeah you are right, but to me make no sense...

the dev nerf the speed of human, to avoid situation "benny hill" where human simple out run the vampire...

then nerf meele vampire attack, charged meele damage/distance, and as result whe have human capable of out run a vampire even more then before the patch? because before aptch outrun a deceiver was very difficult, now is very easy lol


someone can explain me with what kind of skill/tactic a vampire can now catch and kill an human who are running away from his meele? because as far let him go to his teammates and regroup as vampire team wait to charge special abilities and attack again with special abilities and try to finish human who dont run away, i dont see other solution.

--Ram--
3rd Mar 2015, 15:32
Just wanted to add that while the recent melee changes don't feel like a winner, it's good to see melee in general is being looked at and things are being tried out. Hopefully it is possible that the changes go beyond just move speed and attack speed/distance tweaks.

ApollosBow
3rd Mar 2015, 16:50
Just wanted to add that while the recent melee changes don't feel like a winner, it's good to see melee in general is being looked at and things are being tried out. Hopefully it is possible that the changes go beyond just move speed and attack speed/distance tweaks.

Agreed, this really feels like an evolving Beta.

--Ram--
5th Mar 2015, 18:26
Another sample of that supernatural chasing speed vampires possess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ3_B566veA
(please excuse potato quality)

step #1 set up ambush.
step #2 victim walks right into it.
step #3 victim decides they don't want to fight.
step #4 victim just /lol and meep meeps out of there.
step #5 be stubborn and chase them and die because you know there is no way that ***** has the right to just run out of that and live.

Pretty sure in the previous iteration of melee that charged attack before the alchemist ran out the door would have landed. Also I would have gained some ground on her in the straight line chase section and potentially landed a hit. Basically the correct decision when needing to close a 1m gap now is to not bother because you can't, even after just landing a hit. Pretty absurd.

I expect some people will probably pick at my chase and say I didn't take the perfect line etc, although I would say it was pretty good given I was blind half the time. I don't see why I should need to guess her jukes and take paths to cut her off just to land a hit, if I follow her path I should gain on her, significantly. Plain and simple.

Equanimityjohn
6th Mar 2015, 05:30
Another sample of that supernatural chasing speed vampires possess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ3_B566veA
(please excuse potato quality)

step #1 set up ambush.
step #2 victim walks right into it.
step #3 victim decides they don't want to fight.
step #4 victim just /lol and meep meeps out of there.
step #5 be stubborn and chase them and die because you know there is no way that ***** has the right to just run out of that and live.

Pretty sure in the previous iteration of melee that charged attack before the alchemist ran out the door would have landed. Also I would have gained some ground on her in the straight line chase section and potentially landed a hit. Basically the correct decision when needing to close a 1m gap now is to not bother because you can't, even after just landing a hit. Pretty absurd.

I expect some people will probably pick at my chase and say I didn't take the perfect line etc, although I would say it was pretty good given I was blind half the time. I don't see why I should need to guess her jukes and take paths to cut her off just to land a hit, if I follow her path I should gain on her, significantly. Plain and simple.

My god do I know the feels.

--Ram--
6th Mar 2015, 06:04
We're certainly paying attention to this thread, but the consensus elsewhere is nowhere near 100%. I think a balance could be struck between new and old, and I get the argument about burst damage loss being a real problem in high level play.

In the short term we'll fix charged melee to do its old damage. and take a look at stopping power vs. the new melee distances.

Could you elaborate on what your intentions are in terms of vamps being able to chase? is it meant to be excruciatingly difficult? And if so why?

-Konf-
6th Mar 2015, 06:43
Another sample of that supernatural chasing speed vampires possess.
I know how that feels, friend. Don't think there's room for criticism there, really. That semi-charged melee on the stairs (as she was running out of the building after you landed a successful hit) should have connected. And in case it hasn't - it should have crossed enough distance for your next melee to hit. Another perfect demonstration that the slow and gap closing on Vampires are extremely insufficient and actually hinder Vampires in melee combat.

We're certainly paying attention to this thread, but the consensus elsewhere is nowhere near 100%. I think a balance could be struck between new and old, and I get the argument about burst damage loss being a real problem in high level play.
As a player, to me it felt like the changes came completely out of no where. I don't mind trying new things, but when they come out the way these ones have it leaves me to ask a rightful question: "why and what is the purpose?". As a player, I would really appreciate if you could leave us some justification and thought process why you even think there is a need for the "balance between new and old".

So far to me it seems like the only thing you were trying to address was the "button mashing to close gaps". That actually sounds legitimate, I'll give you that. However, that created some problems, because in melee combat button mashing is how Vampires kill, and without gap closing (to which you provided zero alternative options) it becomes extremely insufficient at times.

So my question is - could you please explain the thought process behind:
1) Removing "button mashing to close gaps" by reducing the lunge while not providing an alternative;
2) Need to alter Vampire DPS by re-adjusting attack speed and attack damage.

Reasoning behind the second change interests me even more since I don't think it relates to gap closing and button mashing issue at all. The only indirect correlation I can see is:
(a) Reduce lunge distance on meelee to address button mashing to close gaps > leads to >
(b) Vampires now need higher attack speed to compensate > leads to >
(c) Adjust damage to not make it imbalanced.

If that is the case indeed and one change did in fact lead to another, I would strongly disagree with that idea as some aspects of game play (burst damage and killing potential on Vampires) suffered at the expense of other changes.

P.S.: Some of the changes I actually like. Better strafing right and left should stay as a part of Vampire movement. Additionally, if we are to "reach the balance between new and old" - I'd say the class that could really use that is Tyrant. Re-adjusting his attack damage to be closer (but not as high) as his original numbers and adjusting attack speed to match could be a good thing to try out for this class.

Da_Wolv
6th Mar 2015, 10:07
^What he said.

You removed something, shifted everything around because of it and it backfired.
I don't really see a difference in how people play the game before and now. All I see is that overall the potential is lower.
So now you have faster attack speed but less damage. That in itself would be ok. But if the human can just leave the fight whenever he pleases, the faster attack speed is not going to be factored into the equasion and all you have done is lowered the damage.

--Ram--
6th Mar 2015, 10:08
P.S.: Some of the changes I actually like. Better strafing right and left should stay as a part of Vampire movement.

I would actually prefer this became the main movement mechanic, with attacking for actually attacking and rolls for speed burst/dodging. But we need to move much faster if this is to happen.

puff_ng
6th Mar 2015, 12:42
It does feel to much harder to consolidate a surprise attack into a kill.

maddpadd
6th Mar 2015, 14:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGZdR3FXPCU&feature=youtu.be
Benny hill moment :rolleyes: :whistle:

Me and the tyrant were clipping each other at the start slowing us both down but once I got away from the tyrant I used kick cancel to close the gap eventually get a hit on the hunter, the hit never even phased them.

Is there no stopping power on vampires melee?
Shouldn't being hit in the back slow you down?

--Ram--
6th Mar 2015, 15:26
Is there no stopping power on vampires melee?
Shouldn't being hit in the back slow you down?

It really does feel that way. If there is stopping power it is negligible, definitely needs a buff.

DesolatedMaggot
6th Mar 2015, 18:31
There used to be stopping power on vampire attacks, they removed it randomly a few patches back. No idea why though.

TeeSin
7th Mar 2015, 14:30
just back to the game after months ... well , i didnt know there was a nerf to all vampires after 3-4 matches . Its just not feel right , im kinda think vampires nowaday in nosgoth arent a much threat to human anymoar . Especially low lobbies , where now i think human team will probably now stomping/kicking vamprires asses :D .

PencileyePirate
7th Mar 2015, 22:06
Vampire melee still feels off, please just undo the changes from 2 patches ago.

riccetto80
8th Mar 2015, 01:18
start to want this me too, give us back the gameplay of 2 patch before, this changes miss by miles the supposed goal, fire the internal testing team who test the patch without realize the negative impact will have on the gameplay.

puff_ng
8th Mar 2015, 04:02
It's got to the point that the Tyrant's melee is no longer worth using at all. I now use Throw as the default attack.

TeeSin
8th Mar 2015, 07:56
^ yep... was seeing some tyrants yesterday . They r all just charging and , throwing people then attract them while having IP on and blocking for teamates then run out to position and do the combo again .

puff_ng
8th Mar 2015, 09:32
I don't know why the charged melee is designed to pass through enemies. It's stupid to miss an enemy because he's not far enough.

--Ram--
8th Mar 2015, 10:14
I don't know why the charged melee is designed to pass through enemies. It's stupid to miss an enemy because he's not far enough.

Bloody oath mate.

riccetto80
8th Mar 2015, 17:14
there are not only bad consequences on vamp side, alspo human hunter now suck, because the hitbox are more little and his weapon have insane spread (added in last some patch), almost no one use hunter anymore, me included.

i have the hunter with deadeye and a gun with -8% spread bonus and anyway im unable to hit flyeing enemy of enemy at medium/long distance as in closed beta.

with base gun and no other bonuses hunter must have a degenerative affection to nervs and unable to shoot someone at 5 meter distance, lol.

so for my point of view also hunter got ****ed up for good in the last some patches.

--Ram--
8th Mar 2015, 17:23
Hunter is a beast, no idea what you are talking about. Multibow has huge burst and is extremely accurate. His kit includes cc and aoe, he has no weakness.

riccetto80
8th Mar 2015, 17:31
to me seems was added a LOT of spread, people dont use it anymore as before, and from medium long distance you hit nothing.

before i was use only hunter and alchemist, now 80% alchemist just.

i will try to use bultibow then.

also as vampire i find easier kill hunter then before in 1vs1, but maybe i mistake.

mhhh, i start to think is lagging as hell and this is because i notice this things with hunter.

DesolatedMaggot
9th Mar 2015, 00:06
I don't know where all this "Hunters suck now" stuff is coming from lately. They're fine, still the strongest human class, they haven't had any changes as of late except a buff to Multibow. Prophets are the ones who had their Spread nerfed. :confused:

Da_Wolv
9th Mar 2015, 10:15
I don't know where all this "Hunters suck now" stuff is coming from lately. They're fine, still the strongest human class, they haven't had any changes as of late except a buff to Multibow. Prophets are the ones who had their Spread nerfed. :confused:

lol ya ^^
Prophet was a scout-light and it still is. Spread is making long-range more luck based, which I don't really like.
(Before, you could pull off almost sniper-like shots without aiming down sights 90% of the time. Now you still sometimes get 5 shots in a row on a target at max. distance, other times you miss everything. It's weird.)
And since when are Hunters considered bad? Didn't Silent just have that whole rage-post about how Reaver and Hunter stacks are so OP?

But B2T:
Vampire Melee - sort dat **** out! Or at least give us an update on what your plans are (patch tomorrow maybe, please?!)

riccetto80
9th Mar 2015, 16:50
What i know is since some patch i cannot play good as before with hunter.

im less effective vs sentinel and vs any jumping/moving enemy, even at close distance, before i can hit with most of my shot, now much more i miss.

and i see less hunters on games.

i have issue shooting from medium/long distance, or the spread /recoil is more or lag as hell and with this class more visible.

probable is lag (time to time during a match there are huge 2-5 seconds lag spike, not my connection because also other player on my match complain about the spike in the same moment) if you say the hunter wasn't nerfed i trust you.

probable is effect of vamps moving faster + more lag because of open beta and heavier load on server and also the more little hitbox.

mf1234
9th Mar 2015, 22:33
What i know is since some patch i cannot play good as before with hunter.

im less effective vs sentinel and vs any jumping/moving enemy, even at close distance, before i can hit with most of my shot, now much more i miss.

and i see less hunters on games.

i have issue shooting from medium/long distance, or the spread /recoil is more or lag as hell and with this class more visible.


As someone who regulary gets 20+k damage on humans in 2000 MMR games, I consider Hunter to be the most OP class. I would only consider him OP because he has the highest skill ceiling in the game, takes someone with good recoil control & aim & game smarts to be able to use him effectively to his maximum potential.

3-shot multibow is so damn stupid strong, a simple pull-down as you shoot and its basically pin-point accuracy. It has stupidly HIGH dps if you can land the 3 shots, which is really really easy. Has AOE damage that is high-burst (good for clearing illusions / summons), damage over time bola and high clip count. Using quick hands and you are an absolute dps machine with one of the best and easy disables to land in the game.

He has no downsides.

Vamp movement is ****ed. Humans should NEVER outrun vamps, ever. A simple fix is a vamp placing their crosshair over a human sprinting away gives a base movement speed buff.

FYI, vamp melee has absolutely no skill ceiling. In high MMR, there is nearly no point in attack -> Roll -> Attack -> Roll. A good human will track you basically perfectly and the roll can sometimes negatively help you as they will counter roll the opposite direction creating a huge distance gap.

It would be nice to be able to just strafe + attack, without each attack locking you into a lunging motion. The problem is the lunge is predictable movement, once people play enough the predictable movement is perfectly trackable and near 100% accuracy is achievable. Again, another reason the single shot high damage weapons (axe/3 shot multibow / heavy pistols) are stronger then high dps / high rate of fire weapons is that humans simply need to wait for the time where vamps are trackable. IE after attacks, lunge or changing direction. This is far easier than having to maintain constant tracking aim, otherwise your DPS is lower than single high damaging hits.

I would almost suggest vamps needing 2 base attacks.

Base Attack 1: Simple attack, no effect on movement. Lower damage, but high sustained dps
Base Attack 2: Harder attack, lunging you forward in predictable manner (current base attack we have now)
Charged Attack: Held down Base attack 2

This would allow a combination of using strafe + attacking, then you can attack + lunge forward and additionally use charged attack when queuing around a corner / behind humans.

--Ram--
10th Mar 2015, 05:37
Vamp movement is ****ed. Humans should NEVER outrun vamps, ever. A simple fix is a vamp placing their crosshair over a human sprinting away gives a base movement speed buff

LOL and yes, some sort of vamp sprint/speed burst is needed if devs plan to stay on the unfathomable path of keeping humans at the same speed as vamps in an asymmetric game.



I would almost suggest vamps needing 2 base attacks.

Base Attack 1: Simple attack, no effect on movement. Lower damage, but high sustained dps
Base Attack 2: Harder attack, lunging you forward in predictable manner (current base attack we have now)
Charged Attack: Held down Base attack 2

This would allow a combination of using strafe + attacking, then you can attack + lunge forward and additionally use charged attack when queuing around a corner / behind humans.

That would be an amazing change. Agreed on all other points too, well said.

riccetto80
10th Mar 2015, 22:48
But damn was ALREADY like this... at least with deceiver... almost 0 experience with other class, play 90% of time with deceiver...

With deceiver before this damn patch, you can engage and charge forward, or use the animation of melee to move during the attack left or right and hit enemy with last frame of melee animation...

So was possible charge forward like a bull, or engage in evasive way, was also possible follow the human roll with some skill, or a human who was running and change suddenly direction.

now all this is impossible :(

now the roll is a issue not a help, before i can wait human to roll and then roll too same direction and keep meele him or anyway dont let him gain a huge distance from my future meele, now i have to roll to evade being hit too much and kill and human can rool after me in the opposite direction, lol...

now you must roll to gain distance when in pursuit of a human who run from me, but if human change suddendly direction to left while you roll ahead at the end of the roll you wake up with the distance gap bigger...

before i was rolling only to disorientate enemy and then meele back again, or to close gap to a human far, so if change direction while i roll was not a problem...

so at least as deceiver was already possible do all this stuff,with 1 meele and i charged, if you add another type of attack you only make more complicate a thing who can be, and was, possible with only 1 meele type + skill.

--Ram--
11th Mar 2015, 11:30
B
so at least as deceiver was already possible do all this stuff,with 1 meele and i charged, if you add another type of attack you only make more complicate a thing who can be, and was, possible with only 1 meele type + skill.

It wasn't anywhere near what it needs to be. You can attack straight or attack at an angle or attack all over the place but it all uses the exact same rhythm/timing, and hence is all extremely easy to track. Nothing you do will surprise or trick a good player.

Adding one extra option to something that is rock bottom basic doesn't make it complicated.

riccetto80
12th Mar 2015, 05:27
it was much better of what it is now.