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Khalith
25th Feb 2015, 16:59
Just to keep it organized, please post all feedback on the vanguard here.

Skins + shield design:

Love the visuals on the class, I wish we had a skin that was fully armored, but I can settle for what we have now. I love that the shields are tower shields as well, small shields aren't fun to use!

Weapons:

I messed around with them all in a private match to get a feel for them and a couple of games with each as well.

The Kama and the dot axe (Impaler I think is the name don't have it in front of me) appear to be the best. I really wanted to use the war axe but I found it way too slow to even be remotely useful. As for the axes in general, their range is much longer than I expected with much less of a steep arc then I'd expect from a throwing weapon, it was a bit jarring and it will take some practice to get used to. Besides that their damage seems about right for their speed in my opinion. The shield block mechanic is nice as well, the reduced damage is handy as is the ability to deflect certain moves, it does not appear to block a backstab from the front, but that could definitely just be my latency and the server disagreeing on our positions.

Abilities:

Shield Bash- I definitely like it, it's a great way to punish the reavers after blocking their kick.

Shield Charge- The movement appears really stiff on it, it "felt" weird using. I appreciate the speed of it though, however I don't like that it doesn't really give the vampires the same ease to dodge it like the Tyrant charge.

Judgment- I definitely see the potential in this ability, it's very situational with it's short range and otherwise low damage. I don't see it being better than the two options above, but I do think that with a good team a Vanguard could do some really scary things with this ability, it's definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Rallying Cry- It does have a similar issue to the healing vial in that it's not as good unless your team knows when to get close to you. I hope we can have an alternative for this soon that isn't as dependent on team positioning.

Overall-
I'm liking the design of the class, it does appear to have a higher learning curve than the other humans but once people start getting used to it I think it will find it's niche. Their ability to chain CC can be annoying but their vulnerability to aoe helps as does the fact that a tyrant can charge right through their defenses, I believe Vanguard will be the best counter to reaver and that Tyrant and Summoner will be the go to classes against it. I will have to play it more with and against actual varied team comps before I can make a full decision however, these are my initial thoughts.

Da_Wolv
25th Feb 2015, 17:04
Currently, I see no reason to use any other weapon than the Impaler Axe.
The Stats are identical to Kama, but the Damage potential is much higher.

Secondly, you should be able to charge Sentinels out of the air. It works when someone is being carried, but you cannot skillfully avoid being picked up.

In general, I like how the class feels, but the range on the Axes is higher as expected. I'm not sure if it will be correctly balanced once people gotten used to the machanics and snipe vampires with them.

Alucard_X7
25th Feb 2015, 17:54
Make normal FOV. :mad:
Even the tyrant looks on the screen twice smaller, than this fat hulk. :mad:
At the block in general it is visible nothing! :mad:

ElJefe59
25th Feb 2015, 17:55
The Vanguard's DPS is way too high. It is on the same level of all the other human classes and he has heals, cc's, and is a tank. Since when should a tank have the same damage output as the damage dealers?

I really like his kit but his high DPS has broken the game. It seems as though if you don't have at least two Vanguards on your team you will be weaker no matter what vampires your facing. Not to mention he stalls out almost every game because his "punishing window" is too small.

Oh, and yes I agree that the Impaler Axe is too good. In my opinion all DOT weapons (yes I'm looking at you too piercing pistols) should be worse than the original weapon but with the DOT factored in more damaging. If they are the same, just with the DOT tacked on why would anyone ever use the original?

I'm hoping to see a pretty substantial nerf to his damage in the next patch because playing the game now is just Vamps versus Vanguard with a couple other humans thrown in. Not fun or diverse enough.

Psyonix_Corey
25th Feb 2015, 18:36
The Vanguard's DPS is way too high. It is on the same level of all the other human classes and he has heals, cc's, and is a tank. Since when should a tank have the same damage output as the damage dealers?

I really like his kit but his high DPS has broken the game. It seems as though if you don't have at least two Vanguards on your team you will be weaker no matter what vampires your facing. Not to mention he stalls out almost every game because his "punishing window" is too small.

Oh, and yes I agree that the Impaler Axe is too good. In my opinion all DOT weapons (yes I'm looking at you too piercing pistols) should be worse than the original weapon but with the DOT factored in more damaging. If they are the same, just with the DOT tacked on why would anyone ever use the original?

I'm hoping to see a pretty substantial nerf to his damage in the next patch because playing the game now is just Vamps versus Vanguard with a couple other humans thrown in. Not fun or diverse enough.

His DPS is lower than both Alchemist and Hunter. Further, he has very limited application at long range due to travel time on axes.

_Kine_
25th Feb 2015, 18:44
Feedback :

1 - Vamp melee mashing is stronk.

2 - Getting killed while waiting on Judgement animation is annoying. It is AoE centered around the player meaning ppl are killing you while you are activating the skill. Feels weird.

3 - Vanguard holds his axe right handed. But projectile curves from left to right. Dunno if it affects anything but rawr.

4 - Recoil on throwing axes ? why ?

--Ram--
25th Feb 2015, 18:58
I'm hoping to see a pretty substantial nerf to his damage in the next patch because playing the game now is just Vamps versus Vanguard with a couple other humans thrown in. Not fun or diverse enough.

That is inevitable 3 hours after a class is released. His dps is quite average as you would realize if you bothered to check.

ShaneisaGhost
25th Feb 2015, 18:59
Vanguards do WAY too much DPS for a "tank" class. I mean, one axe hit is 210 dmg + 100 over 2 seconds= 310 damage an axe hit thats almost 1/3 vampire hp gone in 1 of their main attack hits, not even their special ability. With their special abilities you can kill a vampire almost quicker than the other human "DPS" classes. While this, Vanguards have tanky spells as well. Insane dps while really tanky and very easy to play. Why choose the other classes?

ApollosBow
25th Feb 2015, 19:06
I think the impaler? axe is a bit OP, 310 dmg is to much, the bleed effect should be nerfed, 210 with 60 bleed = 270dmg sounds right. Giving way for the higher damaging axe (285) to take top spot with its slow rate of fire, this would be more balanced in my eyes.

O also as a Vamp the sound of the axe hitting you is a bit too quiet, hard to realize you've been getting slaughtered.

--Ram--
25th Feb 2015, 19:08
Why choose the other classes?

Because sentinel hard counters the crap out of vanguard stacks.

ShaneisaGhost
25th Feb 2015, 19:27
I think the impaler? axe is a bit OP, 310 dmg is to much, the bleed effect should be nerfed, 210 with 60 bleed = 270dmg sounds right. Giving way for the higher damaging axe (285) to take top spot with its slow rate of fire, this would be more balanced in my eyes.

O also as a Vamp the sound of the axe hitting you is a bit too quiet, hard to realize you've been getting slaughtered.

Not just that axe specifically but the class as a whole. All of the cooldowns for Vanguard are too low. The damage for his main axes are too high. Just my thoughts/opinions.

ShaneisaGhost
25th Feb 2015, 19:28
From what ive played in the past hour, 4 vanguards win vrs 3-4 sentinals every time. I've only seen summoners do somewhat well. Playing at pretty high mmr

Razaiim
25th Feb 2015, 19:40
I feel like shield bear is fairly powerful. His impaler axe is especially strong, and does its damage very fast. The CC potential is massive. I feel like shield bash should be reduced to 250, so that it is just short of instakilling stalkers. My biggest complaint though, is releasing the class with only a heal.

However, balance problems aside, I like the class, very new and very different from others. I like how he forces different uses of skills, and negates others in new ways such as shielding to block air strike.

IPropheT
25th Feb 2015, 20:19
So.. the Vanguard.. lets see..
@Impaler Axe.. : The first time i took a look at Vanguards weaps i thought this one is going to be OP.
Well, after testing I'd say its decent compared to other human weaps, but not OP. Eventho the rate of fire might appear high, its still hard to land more than 2 hits in a row on enemies that are further away (not like Piercing pistols if you ask me). Aiming at flying Sentinels is fairly hard, I don't think you'll see Sentinels being sniped alot from Vanguard on a higher range.
@Skills:
-Shield bash: feels good, not too hard but once you try out Shield charge..
-Shield charge: its shield bash with higher range (eventho a slighly higher chance to miss) + better CC. Can turn 1 vs 1 situations to your favour. Lower dmg + higher cool time than Shield bash, seems fair.
-Judgement: Didn't test much, since I missed CC from Shield charge.
@"high DPS": Ofc its easier to hit enemies at a lower range, so why not make a hard(er)-to-aim-on-range-weapon decent in close combat? Vanguards = non-AoE-Alchimist in terms of closecombat so therefor IMHO the higher dmg per "bullet" is reasonable
edit: i forgot about the support skill: That lil buff is quite cool but a choice between 2 options would've been better, just saying.

Thats just my first impressions.

GenFeelGood
25th Feb 2015, 20:28
Overall I enjoy the Vanguard but there are a few things I'd like suggest.

*Reducing the dps and increasing the rounds per clip, I know these guys are brutal but their damage shouldn't equal the Alchemist's grenades.
*Either tweak the reload animation to where the shield is not being held up (creating a false sense of security) or make the shield active with frontal defense but with a smaller damage reduction while reloading.
*The shield charge vs a Sentinel's kidnap/abduct is a little hit or miss. I have knocked them down and been picked up by them in the middle of the charge, going straight at them.

_Kine_
25th Feb 2015, 20:36
Because sentinel hard counters the crap out of vanguard stacks.

erm - vanguard can bash diving sentis down to the ground. at which point, it dies.

ElJefe59
25th Feb 2015, 20:51
His DPS is lower than both Alchemist and Hunter. Further, he has very limited application at long range due to travel time on axes.

Vampires have to get in close to deal damage. The summoner, being a longish range vamp, just got an update to reinforce the need to get in close. The sentinel can be knock to the ground by the vanguard's bash and even if the sentinel grabs and drops a vanguard, he can heal, sustain due to tankiness, cc, and guard long enough for his team to save him. It doesn't seem to matter if they don't have long range because the vampires have to come to the humans, or the game stalls out.

Vanguards have been made as the ultimate turtles. A turtleing style character should have very low kill potential and rely on his teammates to get the kills while he absorbs the damage, cc's high value targets, and heals.

Ygdrasel
25th Feb 2015, 21:33
Skin: Meh, he's pretty ugly. The store ones are better. Costs are still ridiculous though.

Weapon: Tried the splitting axe, didn't work as I'd hoped. The Impaler is by far the best. Does it even have a downside to its DoT? May need a slight nerf on damage or some other tradeoff.

Judgement: I played on a human team where some Judgement Vanguards just racked up kills with well-timed use of the ability. I couldn't make much use of that feature but it was a nice way to stagger enemies on occasion.

Shield Bash: Good damage and a stagger. Very useful.

Shield Charge: I had the best run with this. Charging a Tyrant then putting an Impaler in him while he was down was a great way to ward the little monsters off. (Is there an achievement for charging a Tyrant while he charges you? Totally should be.)

Rousing Cry: Very useful, if you're positioned well. Otherwise somewhat less useful as a personal heal. Can't wait to see what other abilities show up in this slot later.

High damage totals with this guy. His slower speed (both in movement and fire rate) took getting used to but he's great fun. I seem to have a problem remembering to use the shield though... XP

Razaiim
25th Feb 2015, 22:13
Made the mistake of splitting axe, needs major tunage to ever, ever compare to the others.

Ygdrasel
25th Feb 2015, 22:18
Made the mistake of splitting axe, needs major tunage to ever, ever compare to the others.

That's why I always buy temp for new stuff. It's a really underwhelming weapon for its description...Definitely needs work to even be a viable choice.

Razaiim
25th Feb 2015, 23:02
That's why I always buy temp for new stuff. It's a really underwhelming weapon for its description...Definitely needs work to even be a viable choice.

It was a mystery drop, didn't commit anything to it.

TheDreamcrusher
25th Feb 2015, 23:40
Weapons
I'm repeating what others have already said, but I find the Kama and Impaler axe to be the best to carry. Unfortunately the Waraxe sits on the edge of being too slow to be reliable. Missing with it is too detrimental. The Splitting Axe is underwhelming as well. I'm not sure what the point of it is. However, I do feel that the Impaler is hands down the best axe to carry because you can easily divide your throws amongst vampires or go 1v1 with a vampire by throwing, blocking them, bleeding them, and throwing again. Any of the primary abilities give you a very good chance if a vampire doesn't break off from fighting you 1v1.

Primary Abilities
Shield Bash is good where it's at, I think. Eight seconds is a very fast cooldown for an ability with such potential, but being it's melee range only I feel that's fair. I've attempted to use it in PUGs to see if it strikes multiple targets but I can't see if it does or doesn't. Shield Charge is alright. I see the potential but I haven't had very good success with it. Same with Judgment.

Secondary Ability
Rousing Cry is interesting, but it definitely makes things tough for lower level players if there's 2 or more vanguards because Rousing Cry every 20 seconds between them restores a lot of HP. I like the speed bonus as well. I paired it up with Fleet Footed and was scouting often and easily for approaching vampires and giving away their positions with Impaling Axes.

Razaiim
25th Feb 2015, 23:50
Weapons
I'm repeating what others have already said, but I find the Kama and Impaler axe to be the best to carry. Unfortunately the Waraxe sits on the edge of being too slow to be reliable. Missing with it is too detrimental. The Splitting Axe is underwhelming as well. I'm not sure what the point of it is. However, I do feel that the Impaler is hands down the best axe to carry because you can easily divide your throws amongst vampires or go 1v1 with a vampire by throwing, blocking them, bleeding them, and throwing again. Any of the primary abilities give you a very good chance if a vampire doesn't break off from fighting you 1v1.

Primary Abilities
Shield Bash is good where it's at, I think. Eight seconds is a very fast cooldown for an ability with such potential, but being it's melee range only I feel that's fair. I've attempted to use it in PUGs to see if it strikes multiple targets but I can't see if it does or doesn't. Shield Charge is alright. I see the potential but I haven't had very good success with it. Same with Judgment.

Secondary Ability
Rousing Cry is interesting, but it definitely makes things tough for lower level players if there's 2 or more vanguards because Rousing Cry every 20 seconds between them restores a lot of HP. I like the speed bonus as well. I paired it up with Fleet Footed and was scouting often and easily for approaching vampires and giving away their positions with Impaling Axes.


Shield bash does hit multiple enemies, It dispels stalkers instantly.

ApollosBow
26th Feb 2015, 00:27
Ye Iv changed my tune in terms of the Vanguard in the last few hours, said from the start his axes are op, but now, my god if theres 2 of these ganging on you you cant do anything, not even damage, goes like this.....knocked down..axe, axe....knockdown, axe, axe...dead. And the feedback on being hit with the axe.....puff puff puff, "what was that a breeze? o im dead...guess I glue my eyes to the lower left during battle"

O and there is no need for health stations anymore with 1 alchemist dropping mist and 1 vanguard with battle cry, let alone an extra vanguard. I know this could have been the case all along with 2 alchem packing mist, but the odds of that were rare, but Im seeing this combo alot today because its the default ability of Vanguard, the movement speed buff makes it good enough in its own right, might suggest limiting the amount it can heal you by much more.

One more thing, it seems that ive found Tyrant gameplay even more unbearable because its not very hard to miss him with the axes, bringing it back to them, the fact that the axes are so much more powerful than a Fullbore Canon shot is just broken. This is especially noticed with the Impaler axe, 310Dmg....ugh. Its like have unlimited Light bombs.

TheDreamcrusher
26th Feb 2015, 00:33
Ye Iv changed my tune in terms of the Vanguard in the last few hours, said from the start his axes are op, but now, my god if theres 2 of these ganging on you you cant do anything, not even damage, goes like this.....knocked down..axe, axe....knockdown, axe, axe...dead.

O and there is no need for health stations anymore with 1 alchemist dropping mist and 1 vanguard with battle cry, let alone an extra vanguard.

One more thing, it seems that ive found Tyrant gameplay even more unbearable because its not very hard to miss him with the axes, bringing it back to them, the fact that the axes are so much more powerful than a Fullbore Canon shot is just broken. This is especially noticed with the Impaler axe, 310Dmg....ugh. Its like have unlimited Light bombs.

I agree, my rounds as Tyrant were the most painful against multiple vanguards. I do like the fact that as tyrant I could Charge to break their block stance and Throw ignores it completely.

Jallford
26th Feb 2015, 00:41
Impaler Axe will have to be nerfed because it's ridiculous at the moment. Rousing Cry heals too much and too quickly, with 2-3 Vanguards and a smidgen of teamwork it's almost impossible to die, even if you're caught in AoE.

Otherwise I like the class and the axes are pleasantly hard to aim. Shield Bash feels great when it lands.

_Kine_
26th Feb 2015, 03:21
Since no one has said it yet,

eventhough Alch mist + Vanguard + Vanguard / Prophet being extremely effective meta it does mean Humans aren't locking down the usual holdouts from long range anymore.

Yes it's a ***** to kill anyone in melee but atleast as vampires, you have a real chance of coming in close enough to fight now. Unlike before where you're stuck hiding behind cover the entire round not being able to even approach without losing 3/4 HP.

Aggggh
26th Feb 2015, 03:34
Imo dropping/reducing the stun (maybe based on range?) from the vanguard's axe would go a long way towards balancing him.

Firehex
26th Feb 2015, 05:16
So, i played 15-20 games after Vanguard was released... You remember butthurt of players after summoner was added ? Well, i was one who don't care about that roof camping and etc.It wasn't so giant problem,because if you move a lot summoners can't do anything.
But here comes new human class!! Jack of all trades - Vanguard! * evil music playing *
What makes him so OP you want to ask ? I'll answer:
1. He is tanky - most hp in human team and ability to block a lot of damage.
2. His damage is crazy - axes hit you like alchi nades and even better.
3. He has CC - mini stun and knockback.
4. He can heal self and other members with single button. Don't forget - you also get movement speed bonus,which can save you too.
5. Vanguard even got ability which can oneshot everyone around him if vamps hp below 30% points. That is next lvl of crazy.

And what his disadvantages ?
1. Can't kill long range targets
2. Problems with sentinels

So, 5 + for 2 - . Is it not enough to convince you how he is OP right now ? Ok, more examples.

Impaler axe - most everyone use it now.Why ? Maybe this is SE plot to make this axe popular ? :D No,silly reader. Just check out his damage : 215 on hit and 100 bleed after. 315 damage from single hit of primary weapon, NOT SKILL. And do you know most terrible thing about this ? Bleed effect stacks...So, imagine situation : 1 vanguard knockback you and at least 3 axes hit you while you get up - say goodbye to 945 hp! No skills, just 3 lmb clicks.
Lets compare this axe with other weapons which have delay damage:
1.Stormbow - 80 hit + 110 explosion.
2. Piercing pistols - 115 + 40 bleed.
3. Poison bola - 160 poison damage in total.
4. Impaler axe - 215 + 100 bleed.

Which weapon has most high damage from single hit ? Fullbore Cannon - 240. Now tell me - how axe can do more damage than grenade ? Lets evolve my idea - what the point to play alchi right now ? I imagined only 2 reasons :
1. 2 or more summoners
2. 2 or more deceivers with illusions ( fire skills helps a lot )

Now, lets discuss his heal - it is 15 % hp in total plus 20% ms bonus. CD 20 seconds. Effect of this skill lasts for 5 seconds. Do you know what this means ? Non-stop chain heal with 4 Vanguards. I' ll explain it to you: I cast (5 sec) - II cast (10 sec) - III cast ( 15 sec) - IV cast ( 20 sec passed, first can use heal again , repeat cycle). In this 20 seconds you can heal, just think about it,60% of hp. But hey!:scratch: Someone may say - you forgot what alchi can heal a lot with healing mist and this is third reason to use him.Nope,you are not so right. It is math time! :cool:
Mist heals 75 hp/s for 6 seconds = 450 total. It has 25 seconds cooldown.
Humans have 1050 hp. 450 hp for them is about 42-43% of their total ammount. As i said before 4 vanguards can give to each other 60% in 20 seconds(690 hp). Only situation when alchi heal will be better is when 1 or 2 vanguards in team. Also don't forget the fact what humans usually waste 1-2 seconds to get into mist zone,but with rousing cry you just stand between your teammates,click q and back to watching roofs. You don't have risk to be damaged from reaver or sentinel nades and hellfire. So, sorry alchi fans - it is not your patch.:rasp:

Shield bash - 275 damage, 8 sec cd. Whip of hunter has quite same range,but - 200 damage and 12 sec cd... Not so fair, don't you think so ?

And last topic - tyrants. Some players thought what giant brute vampire should easy handle tanky class. They were so wrong :(
I tryed to play with jump /marathon. I managed to knockdown 2/3 people, stopped, got charged by vanguard instanly after, killed in less than 2 seconds. I didn't even have time to realise what killed me so fast. I checked my damage chart after death - most of it was from 2 vanguards - 600+ 400, 630+ 530...That is just reminder how impaler axe is freaking OP. Problem is - if you don't use ignore pain instantly after engage(or your team will come just in time) - you are deadman. Two hunters can't focus tyrant down so fast as our new class.
Also to make things even worse devs gave him super ability - judgement. You are 30% hp or below ? Cya in hell! :D For tyrant it's 405 hp - quite a lot .Scout needs 3 arrows to kill it,but our tanky friend just click 1 button(of course tyrant need to be near him).
But don't think what only tyrant has problems. I would agree with idea of some random player - if you got caught by 2 vanguards - no chances for you.

I think it is time to end my wall of thoughts. I gave you examples, some maths results and etc. I hope devs will nerf him soon ( or buff other classes, but we all know what this not gonna happen :rasp:)

Ygdrasel
26th Feb 2015, 05:16
Impaler Axe will have to be nerfed because it's ridiculous at the moment. Rousing Cry heals too much and too quickly, with 2-3 Vanguards and a smidgen of teamwork it's almost impossible to die, even if you're caught in AoE.

Shield Bash does feel great when it hits...Charge too but I don't have the range on that nailed down just yet so it fails a lot. Not sure if I prefer Bash's stagger (is it me or is the Vanguard staggered a bit after using it too?) or Charge's knockdown...

And when Judgement results in a kill or two, it's nothing short of delightful. Great for clean-up work.

The limited range of Rousing Cry goes a fair way toward keeping it reasonable, I think. A team staying permanently clustered up like that is easily preyed upon by AoEs and confused by Illusions, they can be torn up easy even with healing. A team spreading out suitably lessens the Cry's effectiveness. AoEs often scatter them away from the Vanguard despite better judgement. Just keep the pressure on.

Psyonix_Corey
26th Feb 2015, 06:53
A patch has been submitted to QA that reduces the DPS of his axes and lowers his max block amount, as well as preventing Rousing Cry from stacking.

uNborn-
26th Feb 2015, 08:28
Thats good news Corey. As it stands now the skill ceiling of this game just lowered a ton. I really dont think nerfing vampires was a good idea considering how dominant humans are at high level regardless of the vanguard class or not. Vanguard should not be able to heal at all as we already have classes that have this mechanic not to mention one that can block 90 percent of all incoming damage including AOE hellstrike... I suggest the rallying cry or whatever its called gives a speed boost to the rate of fire of the axes and a movement speed buff to surrounding teammates but thats it.

I like the pull back idea for the axes.

DesolatedMaggot
26th Feb 2015, 08:44
,,, that can block 90 percent of all incoming damage including AOE hellstrike...

Seems like he's able to block any AOE, including Jump Attack and Air Strike. Ground based AOE's such as Choking Haze and DOT portion of Abyssal Bolt go through as expected though.

puff_ng
26th Feb 2015, 09:26
Hmm, got rekt by 2 van + scout on the freeport map. got destroyed from afar and up close >.>

Da_Wolv
26th Feb 2015, 11:09
A patch has been submitted to QA that reduces the DPS of his axes and lowers his max block amount, as well as preventing Rousing Cry from stacking.

Here's my suggestions on this topic:

1) DPS
The DPS was fine (with exception of Impaler axe).
What it needed was harder spread and/or recoil to make long distance hits more difficult.

- I could easily spam rooftops with axes, making alchemists pale in comparison with both the accuracy and damage output I was able to achieve.
- Impaler Axe is downright a better Kama. In 1s it ticks for additional 25dmg - which is roughly the time it takes you to hit a second time anyway! Which makes it already a little better as the Kama, as all other stats are shared. The way to make the Impaler Axe balanced is not to completely nerf the damage it does, but carry more of its damage over to the bleed effect. Like say you only do 150 dmg upon hit, but bleed for another 150 or so.

2) Cry
I feel this skill should be split in two:
1. Rousing Cry, which heals the team for 15-20% over maybe 8s.
2. Rallying Cry, which buffs move, sprint and reload speed (maybe even bow draw speed) by 15%.
and maybe a 3rd Berserkers Shout, which increases Damage output for 4-5s by 15% or so.

Numbers are up to discussion, obviously, but I feel this should make the problems disappear.

Alucard_X7
26th Feb 2015, 12:02
Lets compare this axe with other weapons which have delay damage:
1.Stormbow - 80 hit + 110 explosion.
2. Piercing pistols - 115 + 40 bleed.
3. Poison bola - 160 poison damage in total.
4. Impaler axe - 215 + 100 bleed.

:nut:

>>1. Stormbow: (80 + 110) * 1.25 = 225 or 475 with fully drawn. It is easy to shoot via all map!
>>2. Piercing pistols: (115 + 40) * 1.9 = 294.5!!! It is much simpler to hit the vamp than an axe.
>>4. Impaler axe: 215 + 100 = 315 The axe flies slowly. At a great distance it is easy to evade.
It is more difficult to hit the vamp, than from other types of weapon. The miss price is great.

KyrandisX
26th Feb 2015, 13:17
:nut:

>>1. Stormbow: (80 + 110) * 1.25 = 225 or 475 with fully drawn. It is easy to shoot via all map!
>>2. Piercing pistols: (115 + 40) * 1.9 = 294.5!!! It is much simpler to hit the vamp than an axe.
>>4. Impaler axe: 215 + 100 = 315 The axe flies slowly. At a great distance it is easy to evade.
It is more difficult to hit the vamp, than from other types of weapon. The miss price is great.
Yeah but vampires aren't ranged, and the tank guy with the axe has a heal as well, that covers practically the entire team every use cuz you wouldn't be solo. at close range or if you'ev even fought 3-4 vanguards it gets progressively worse. on top of that it feels like 90% of the vanguard users i come across all use impaler axe. its retarded.
what's even worse is they can just camp there forever without ever going fo rheal stations and if vamps come close they just take turns shield bashing
3 axes 1 from each vanguard and you have a dead vampire, sounds pretty broken.

for a guy who has a shield and throws his axes one handed and hits harder than all the other classes on just a click without any hold or draw or chargeup with 1350hp and an AOE heal + movespeed burst its pretty OP.

Sarhaed
26th Feb 2015, 14:43
At the moment, I see Vanguards everywhere, and they can outmatch any class anywhere in the scoreboard. Let's just check some facts.

These are the "normal" advantages of the Vanguard (in my opinion):
-Vanguard has more hp than any other human class.
-He can block attacks and skills with his shield. It can save his life and the life of his teammates.
-He has very good control skills to disrupt the enemy team. (his shield bash is better than the Hunter's whip).

I don't think he needs more than that honestly, but... here comes trouble:
-Impaler axe is the deadliest weapon in term of damage per hit in the game right now, aside from fully drawn bows. Yes, it can miss. But honestly, Alchemist nades can miss too at mid to long range, and are dangerous to use at close range because of the friendly fire. You don't have that issue here.
-It's very difficult to miss anything with axes when you are close. And vampires are close most of the time...
-It's impossible to win against a Vanguard in term of healing. I often play the prophet with Sacrifice, and it's truly impossible for me to outmatch any Vanguard in this domain. The Rousing Cry is at the moment the most efficient healing skill in the game, and also the easiest to use. AND it gives a speed bonus, wich helps your team to survive even more.

Actually, playing anything else than the Vanguard is stupid in our situation.
-The Hunter is more efficient at long range, but you need good aim and a bit of luck with the recoil. In every other domain, Vanguard is better.
-The Alchemist deals more AoE damage, but grenades have flying time too and are even less efficient against sentinels. Also, you can hurt yourself, and this happens all the time in melee. In every other domain, Vanguard is better.
-The Scout is much better at long range, have decent AoE and/or evasion, but according to Psyonix_Corey, have lower DPS (due to his rate of fire) and is the most inefficient class at close range. And in Nosgoth, you're pretty much always close to vampires... Maybe the best class to use with Vanguard.
-The Prophet is. Hum. Better at controlling things, I guess ? Her sustain can't outmatch the almighty Rousing Cry, her heal is stupidly dangerous to use in comparison (and just heal one person at a time and hurt herself...), and her control skills need careful planning and aiming... seriously, compared to Vanguard, the Prophet is just better at shooting Sentinels...

So, if it continues, I don't see why human players should play anything else than 3+ Vanguards in the same team.

For the rest, I agree with Firehex.

--Ram--
26th Feb 2015, 15:33
erm - vanguard can bash diving sentis down to the ground. at which point, it dies.

Is this very hit or miss then? I tried both shield charge and bash with a friend in a private lobby and every time the sent ignored the attack and picked me up. The sent was in this case coming at me head on, I've read that perhaps charging it at an angle works but straight on does not?

If the sent can be reliably bashed out of the sky then I find that pretty absurd.

Aggggh
26th Feb 2015, 16:03
Is this very hit or miss then? I tried both shield charge and bash with a friend in a private lobby and every time the sent ignored the attack and picked me up. The sent was in this case coming at me head on, I've read that perhaps charging it at an angle works but straight on does not?

If the sent can be reliably bashed out of the sky then I find that pretty absurd.

Seems very hit or miss with shield charge. After reading about it on the forums I've tried piles of times from multiple angles to try and charge a sent as they're about to grab a team mate only to end up getting grabbed myself.

Gozetassj9
26th Feb 2015, 16:23
With all the negative in this thread I wanted to add my positive feedback. I love the vanguard! I don't think he is OP at all, certainly some numbers have to be looked at for balance but I think he is a great option.

I've had no problem winning as vamps, though it does it make it more challenging. It's has been a bit easier to win as humans. As long as vampires use hit and run tactics and attack together they can still clean the house. It's those games where the vampires rush in and hope to get some lucky aoe and hits in and wipe the humans with chaos that are turned around by the vanguard, he brings order.

It forces vampires to stay on the move since it's harder to aim as vanguard. I think along with, Tyrant and Summoner, Deceiver does pretty well against him with backstab while he is distracted, illusions can block the axe hits while finishing him off.

Probably could use just a small reduction on axe damage but ultimately I don't think it's going to make much difference. He is a force to be reckoned with and vamps are just going to have to adjust like humans have with summoners.

Gozetassj9
26th Feb 2015, 16:25
@Aggggh

Yea it is fast and hard to aim, you have to hit them right after they grabbed someone else and it will work to knock them down and stun them, it's harder than bola but a bit more satisfying.

Edit: sorry for the double post, meant to edit the first one.

_Kine_
26th Feb 2015, 19:20
@Aggggh

Yea it is fast and hard to aim, you have to hit them right after they grabbed someone else and it will work to knock them down and stun them,

It only requires direction and timing. Seems easy enough to pull off coz the 2 guys who did it to me, did so consecutively without missing. I was the one flying senti. Soon as they hear the screech, they'll turn to face the right direction - I'd see some sort of animation the split second we were about to make contact then ... I'm standing still on the ground without warning. Since I don't WASD much while diving, I frequently stand still for a full second each time I was grounded.

I'm assuming it was Bash since they did not move much when pulling it off. Could've been Charge. Hard to say from my end since they only activate the split second I'm about to make contact.

On a plus note, Takeoff + Wing Flap combo is now a real consideration hence me not complaining. Did not save the recording coz I was listening to a questionable playlist during that match.

Hixlysss
26th Feb 2015, 19:42
When it comes to "range" with the axes, they have hit reg issues. I've thrown axes and seen them hit and do no damage, I've been a vampire, gotten hit with axes and saw them stick and do no damage, so it has some issues there.

Their flight speed is...wonky. I'd gladly take a damage reduction for increase flight speed or even a harder arc. And the heal that these guys have is just...evil. A team of vanguards can withstand so much, if we charge in to actually fight them, we die quickly, and then they can just put up their warcry move and withstand anything we can toss at them at range. Even tried countering with sents, just pick up and drop off, they just used warcry and healed to full HP in less than five seconds.

Honestly, he only has a few issues. Hitreg, Flight Speed of Axes, Warcry, Health. Warcry needs it's heal to not stack up to 4x, maybe 2x or not at all. Hitreg of the axes needs to be fixed, and a increase to their flight speed would be just lovely. Health is something of an issue with him as well, I've never felt so squishy before, and never have I been so constantly grabbed by sentinels. I mean in all honesty, why doesn't this guy have the same HP as the tyrant? Or even just a lil less by default? I mean with hp boosters I got up to 1200ish, but that should be his base HP for how easily he can be carried off by sents or just in general "hit" by everything.

Jallford
26th Feb 2015, 20:54
Since no one has said it yet,

eventhough Alch mist + Vanguard + Vanguard / Prophet being extremely effective meta it does mean Humans aren't locking down the usual holdouts from long range anymore.

Yes it's a ***** to kill anyone in melee but atleast as vampires, you have a real chance of coming in close enough to fight now. Unlike before where you're stuck hiding behind cover the entire round not being able to even approach without losing 3/4 HP.

I agree with this. I'm glad poking my head round a corner no longer results in immediate death.

NoDestiny
26th Feb 2015, 21:21
Figured I'd throw my opinions out there...
Shield
-It works great when up. Feel this works well. Maybe takes a bit more of a beating than I would expect.
-Going between blocking and attacking is rather slow. Makes close combat rough. Perhaps intentional?

Axes
-Excellent all around weapon type it seems, though I don't have a lot of time with all the axes.
-I can throw an them across the map. Throw one straight up and it's like it goes into space (dark map, couldn't tell if it came down). Seems it should be more like alchemist in arch and distance. Perhaps charge up like scout bow for greater distances.
-This feels too easy to just spam about. I can toss them all over a roof and it feels like there is no down side, since he holds plenty and fires/reloads quickly. If distance were lowered, I think it would make this less effective.
-I don't think they are overpowered in damage. I haven't seen anybody do amazing amounts of damage when playing vanguard dedicated throughout a round.

Shield Bash
-Awesome, has kept me and my team alive several times
-Doesn't stop charging tyrant (lol). Would be cool if both tyrant and vanguard fell on their butts when the two collided.
-Doesn't seem like it stops a diving Sentinel going for a grab, but I've only tried it once.

The healing stacking with 4 of these guys it's nutty, lol.

At first, I HATED the stock skin, but's grown on me. Didn't seem like he fit in with the rest, but after looking at the details a bit more, he's really right at home.

All in all, great start. A few tweaks and this guy should be a great choice among the other 4.

Xayz711
26th Feb 2015, 22:51
I don't see the blocking needing to be debuffed any. The axes I'll give because I just have half health for no reason in 2 seconds. But the blocking is easy to get around if you're a vamp. And I've been killed while blocking because people work together.

KyrandisX
26th Feb 2015, 23:54
So just to make things more clear here's a screenshot
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=399437123

Out of the hundreds of matches I've played I've never seen anyone on human side go above 20k damage dealt to vampires let alone AND with 2.6k+ healing of either prophet or alchemist unless the vamp team's intentionally just feeding themselves to death. Case in point here is that when you're healing with the other classes you're in danger of being a sitting duck or you're losing your own hp.
And yes that screenshot was facing off 4 vanguards until the scout decided to go long range because he decided that 4 vanguards was already too OP cause scouts don't have support healing right. We had 4 on our vamp team and one left cuz it was retarded to fight 4 vanguards. You put 4 of any other human class and its still approachable.

A throwing axe that does more damage than an explosive(alchemist grenades) is downright weird and doesn't make sense, and on top is thrown with 1 hand. There's no point for a vanguard to ever melee when a thrown axe hits that much harder and he can reload while blocking or wait for skill CDs. and rousing cry either needs to get the health dropped or tweaked where it only recovers damage taken in the last 10 seconds or something, shouting at your team and having their wounds heal when they're not fanatical vampires with move speed bursts is broken, it completely disregards prophet's sacrifice and outdoes healing mist. Healing Mist is a circle and you gotta sit in there and be in danger of aoe's/hellfire/abyssal snipes or smoke/choke bombs airstrikes etc. Rousing Cry **** all that and just run around like a roadrunner while getting health back, match it with fleet footed and immolation and you can outrun a vampire anytime EASILY from just running straight.

In short:
Vanguard should have his Rousing Cry seriously looked at
Impaler axe, nerf it, it's stupid to pick any other axe, all you need to do is land 1 axe hit every now and then and a vampire loses 1/3rd of their health (315 total over a very short duration which is all that's needed really is to land 1 hit every now and then).

If a vamp is taking axes to the face repeatedly they just don't know how to sidestep or strafe while moving. Some may argue "yeah that's humans poking" well yeah.,.. that's what they do but it shouldnt wipe 1/3rd of my health when my charged melee attack does an equivalent amount and they have a heal to extend their health back up to max, whereas my regen only brings me up to 1/3rd and now I'm susceptible to being one shotted by a scout or a vanguard shieldbash & 1 axe to the face if I go in.

Vanguard's pretty broken class with the heal & powerful axes. His skills are fine. A tank class shouldn't be a killer and a healer and a cc'er and a tank altogether simultaneously. Pick one not all. He has no weaknesses currently, you can say Sentinels but hell just rousing cry, drop damage gone. woohoo.

RazielWarmonic
27th Feb 2015, 00:00
Sadly, I don't think Vanguard healing and DPS is the problem here.

I think the nerf to vampire melee is. ESPECIALLY with his STOPPING POWER! His stopping power needs to be dialed back... a lot.
His shield is fine, his healing is fine, if you get more than one vanguard on the same team anyway it's GG for vanguard because Summoner and Sentinel.

Something does feel off though, and I just don't know what it is.

GenFeelGood
27th Feb 2015, 00:16
I more I play him the more trouble I have narrowing down where the adjustment needs to be.

I think the war and impale axe need less dps in exchange for increased ammo; and the split axe needs a dps increase or maybe have him throw 3 axes instead of 2.

Also, has anyone else noticed some of their throws don't register, like you are just slinging your arm?

Petire
27th Feb 2015, 00:36
Alright just to add my two cents to this conversation and to debunk some stuff also.

I have seen plenty of people from unborn all the way down to me who can break 20k damage and have 6-9k healing in the same match with alchemist, the major problem ATM with vanguard is that you have 4 of them and from what I have seen the axes are easier to hit and don't do damage to yourself when you shoot a vampire who is attacking you.

Another thing the vanguard has going for him is that when a vampire is in his face he is able to block an attack and then throw an axe and bring up his shield again before the next vampire attack so against LMB spammers vanguard just owns.

Today I have played quite a few games against 4 stack vanguards and just having a tyrant with throw and charge you are able to beat out the shield and the heal with enrage, you can throw them even through the shield being held up and you don't just straight die if you get shield charged. People just have to spend some time and figure out how to play against the class.

TL : DR, Don't nerf the class too hard until he is useless and everyone goes back to play hunter again please.

MasterFurbz
27th Feb 2015, 01:15
Sounds good Corey. It will be interesting to see the tweaked numbers that you ran with QA.

To me, the vanguard seems to be in a relatively healthy state, sans a few exceptions (impaling axe, rally cry stacking.) One thing I want to emphasize is that the vanguard is bound to perform exceptionally upon its first few weeks of release. Barring the possibility of being woefully undertuned, anything new will typically take a few weeks for players to adjust to.

-Blocking is a key component of the class, it is important to keep this as a viable choice for a vanguard in order to encourage a mechanic that makes the class unique. Be wary of downscaling it.

-Shield charge will, in my opinion, need a cooldown increase. The skill is definitely very viable, and quite fun, however the knockdown may be too powerful at 15 seconds. The skill can definitely maintain its utility if it's pervasiveness is less prevalent when having multiple Vanguards on a team. Allow the skill to be useful but not spammy.

-Rallying cry is already spoken for, don't let it stack. Well done, moving on.

-Impaling axe has too much damage. There's no way of getting around it. A large reduction on top end damage with perhaps a small boost to back end (an additional tick) would help to push the weapon into its role of chipping/finishing.

-War axe will either need a small reduction or perhaps a 4 shot ammo capacity. Similar to the warbow in early beta, it needs to pack a punch without being too rewarding.


I have not used the splitter hatchet to have sufficient feedback. As Warmonic stated, stopping power may need to be examined across the board for Vanguard. I have not personally noticed the issue however I will not deny that it may exist.

Looking forward to your thoughts Corey.

GenFeelGood
27th Feb 2015, 03:37
One absolute joy of joys that has been brought about with the introduction of the Vanguard is what it has done for the Sentinel. The days before his release, there would be around just 1 Sentinel in a match and (depending on that particular player) would likely be more of a burden than a benefit. I rarely ever saw any higher level game play involving the Sentinel during this time either. Now the Sentinel is back kicking butt and taking names, he is the best solution to the stacking of the Vanguards (as effective as going all Scouts against all Sentinels).

Who knows, maybe we can also get some of the Reaver nerfs reversed down the line.

omgwtfnonameavailabl
27th Feb 2015, 04:13
So, i played 15-20 games after Vanguard was released... You remember butthurt of players after summoner was added ? Well, i was one who don't care about that roof camping and etc.It wasn't so giant problem,because if you move a lot summoners can't do anything.
But here comes new human class!! Jack of all trades - Vanguard! * evil music playing *
What makes him so OP you want to ask ? I'll answer:
1. He is tanky - most hp in human team and ability to block a lot of damage.
2. His damage is crazy - axes hit you like alchi nades and even better.
3. He has CC - mini stun and knockback.
4. He can heal self and other members with single button. Don't forget - you also get movement speed bonus,which can save you too.
5. Vanguard even got ability which can oneshot everyone around him if vamps hp below 30% points. That is next lvl of crazy.

And what his disadvantages ?
1. Can't kill long range targets
2. Problems with sentinels

So, 5 + for 2 - . Is it not enough to convince you how he is OP right now ? Ok, more examples.

Impaler axe - most everyone use it now.Why ? Maybe this is SE plot to make this axe popular ? :D No,silly reader. Just check out his damage : 215 on hit and 100 bleed after. 315 damage from single hit of primary weapon, NOT SKILL. And do you know most terrible thing about this ? Bleed effect stacks...So, imagine situation : 1 vanguard knockback you and at least 3 axes hit you while you get up - say goodbye to 945 hp! No skills, just 3 lmb clicks.
Lets compare this axe with other weapons which have delay damage:
1.Stormbow - 80 hit + 110 explosion.
2. Piercing pistols - 115 + 40 bleed.
3. Poison bola - 160 poison damage in total.
4. Impaler axe - 215 + 100 bleed.

Which weapon has most high damage from single hit ? Fullbore Cannon - 240. Now tell me - how axe can do more damage than grenade ? Lets evolve my idea - what the point to play alchi right now ? I imagined only 2 reasons :
1. 2 or more summoners
2. 2 or more deceivers with illusions ( fire skills helps a lot )

Now, lets discuss his heal - it is 15 % hp in total plus 20% ms bonus. CD 20 seconds. Effect of this skill lasts for 5 seconds. Do you know what this means ? Non-stop chain heal with 4 Vanguards. I' ll explain it to you: I cast (5 sec) - II cast (10 sec) - III cast ( 15 sec) - IV cast ( 20 sec passed, first can use heal again , repeat cycle). In this 20 seconds you can heal, just think about it,60% of hp. But hey!:scratch: Someone may say - you forgot what alchi can heal a lot with healing mist and this is third reason to use him.Nope,you are not so right. It is math time! :cool:
Mist heals 75 hp/s for 6 seconds = 450 total. It has 25 seconds cooldown.
Humans have 1050 hp. 450 hp for them is about 42-43% of their total ammount. As i said before 4 vanguards can give to each other 60% in 20 seconds(690 hp). Only situation when alchi heal will be better is when 1 or 2 vanguards in team. Also don't forget the fact what humans usually waste 1-2 seconds to get into mist zone,but with rousing cry you just stand between your teammates,click q and back to watching roofs. You don't have risk to be damaged from reaver or sentinel nades and hellfire. So, sorry alchi fans - it is not your patch.:rasp:

Shield bash - 275 damage, 8 sec cd. Whip of hunter has quite same range,but - 200 damage and 12 sec cd... Not so fair, don't you think so ?

And last topic - tyrants. Some players thought what giant brute vampire should easy handle tanky class. They were so wrong :(
I tryed to play with jump /marathon. I managed to knockdown 2/3 people, stopped, got charged by vanguard instanly after, killed in less than 2 seconds. I didn't even have time to realise what killed me so fast. I checked my damage chart after death - most of it was from 2 vanguards - 600+ 400, 630+ 530...That is just reminder how impaler axe is freaking OP. Problem is - if you don't use ignore pain instantly after engage(or your team will come just in time) - you are deadman. Two hunters can't focus tyrant down so fast as our new class.
Also to make things even worse devs gave him super ability - judgement. You are 30% hp or below ? Cya in hell! :D For tyrant it's 405 hp - quite a lot .Scout needs 3 arrows to kill it,but our tanky friend just click 1 button(of course tyrant need to be near him).
But don't think what only tyrant has problems. I would agree with idea of some random player - if you got caught by 2 vanguards - no chances for you.

I think it is time to end my wall of thoughts. I gave you examples, some maths results and etc. I hope devs will nerf him soon ( or buff other classes, but we all know what this not gonna happen :rasp:)

Quoting this because everything you said is 100% true and if someone missed it, it deserves to be read.

CrunchyFX
27th Feb 2015, 08:20
Not exactly a complaint, and maybe I'm just crazy, but it feels like his axe throws are camera locked. Like, if you try to change where you aim after he starts his throwing animation, it doesn't change. Maybe I'm wrong and it's just the speed that the axe moves. Either way, it's taking some practice to get used to, but lots of fun :U

Also, using Eldritch Guard on a Vanguard is my favorite thing I've done on Nosgoth. Tank for days.

AdmiralPPR
27th Feb 2015, 09:42
Don't know if it was already mentioned, but when playing VG for the first time, i instinctively tried to reload after each thrown axe, because they feel so much like the alchs nades. I found it hilarious being able to hit as hard as an alch, but reload the entire clip at once... I think that changing the reload mechanism would be the easiest fix for the VG's OPness. ^^

Ah just forgot to mention:
I really like the vanguard! Combined with the new summoner we'll now have a nice change in meta :)

LOFO1993
27th Feb 2015, 11:07
I think there will be a lot of tweakings to be done, but the most immediate thing seems the way the throwing axes work. They are just way too effective on short and medium range with no real drawbacks. As it stands, Vanguard is simply the best mid-range class by a country mile, and that's before we even look at the Abilities. It genuinely feels like playing with a Scout with zero recoil or spread, better RoF and even more potential damage in the clip. I don't know if the raw numbers support this, but I'm dealing WAY too much damage with WAY too little effort.

1) The aim seems to be rock solid at the center of the screen. I don't know if that's the case, but even if there's some spread it's risible and doesn't affect the accuracy at all.

2) The axes travel very fast, and if you're shooting within the 10-12 meters range you can manually compensate for the delay almost 100% of the times. It's also unthinkable to avoid them as a Vampire, you barely see them coming, from any distance and direction

3) No damage falloff for distance traveled (is there some at all? Didn't see that happen yet).

4) Basically infinite range.

5) The basic damage is really high. With Kama alone you can kill one vampire and a half with a single clip, and the RoF is high as well.

6) You reload the whole clip in a split second. Wouldn't it be better not to have a reload at all, but increase substantially the delay between single shots?


I'm not saying all these things should be adressed, but as it stands right now I can't help but feel like we're doing "Prophet at launch 2.0": Vanguard looks very interesting and deep, but the skill ceiling is very low and it all boils down to being able to aim decently with the basic weapon. It's very easy to exploit it in the most obvious manner, and it feels way too easy to deal huge damages with no real drawbacks.

I'm literally spamming LMB as soon as I see a Vampire, then Spam Q and F in melee, then spam LMB again, and more often than not that's proving more effective than playing with some tactics as any other class. I barely roll at all with Vanguard: I'm not afraid the Vampire may kill me before I deal enough damage, they are afraid I'm gonna kill them by spamming axes before they can do anything.


Also, the camera placement may need some work (maybe have the closed-up visual only when blocking?) and Shield Charge feels a bit cheap at times (what about making it stagger Vampires as a general rule, and knock them off only if you hit them at the very end of the charge, or at the very beginning, or something like that?), but that's NOTHING compared to the throwing weapons.

Rebellion97
27th Feb 2015, 14:01
So, i played 15-20 games after Vanguard was released... You remember butthurt of players after summoner was added ? Well, i was one who don't care about that roof camping and etc.It wasn't so giant problem,because if you move a lot summoners can't do anything.
But here comes new human class!! Jack of all trades - Vanguard! * evil music playing *
What makes him so OP you want to ask ? I'll answer:
1. He is tanky - most hp in human team and ability to block a lot of damage.
2. His damage is crazy - axes hit you like alchi nades and even better.
3. He has CC - mini stun and knockback.
4. He can heal self and other members with single button. Don't forget - you also get movement speed bonus,which can save you too.
5. Vanguard even got ability which can oneshot everyone around him if vamps hp below 30% points. That is next lvl of crazy.

And what his disadvantages ?
1. Can't kill long range targets
2. Problems with sentinels

So, 5 + for 2 - . Is it not enough to convince you how he is OP right now ? Ok, more examples.

Impaler axe - most everyone use it now.Why ? Maybe this is SE plot to make this axe popular ? :D No,silly reader. Just check out his damage : 215 on hit and 100 bleed after. 315 damage from single hit of primary weapon, NOT SKILL. And do you know most terrible thing about this ? Bleed effect stacks...So, imagine situation : 1 vanguard knockback you and at least 3 axes hit you while you get up - say goodbye to 945 hp! No skills, just 3 lmb clicks.
Lets compare this axe with other weapons which have delay damage:
1.Stormbow - 80 hit + 110 explosion.
2. Piercing pistols - 115 + 40 bleed.
3. Poison bola - 160 poison damage in total.
4. Impaler axe - 215 + 100 bleed.

Which weapon has most high damage from single hit ? Fullbore Cannon - 240. Now tell me - how axe can do more damage than grenade ? Lets evolve my idea - what the point to play alchi right now ? I imagined only 2 reasons :
1. 2 or more summoners
2. 2 or more deceivers with illusions ( fire skills helps a lot )

Now, lets discuss his heal - it is 15 % hp in total plus 20% ms bonus. CD 20 seconds. Effect of this skill lasts for 5 seconds. Do you know what this means ? Non-stop chain heal with 4 Vanguards. I' ll explain it to you: I cast (5 sec) - II cast (10 sec) - III cast ( 15 sec) - IV cast ( 20 sec passed, first can use heal again , repeat cycle). In this 20 seconds you can heal, just think about it,60% of hp. But hey!:scratch: Someone may say - you forgot what alchi can heal a lot with healing mist and this is third reason to use him.Nope,you are not so right. It is math time! :cool:
Mist heals 75 hp/s for 6 seconds = 450 total. It has 25 seconds cooldown.
Humans have 1050 hp. 450 hp for them is about 42-43% of their total ammount. As i said before 4 vanguards can give to each other 60% in 20 seconds(690 hp). Only situation when alchi heal will be better is when 1 or 2 vanguards in team. Also don't forget the fact what humans usually waste 1-2 seconds to get into mist zone,but with rousing cry you just stand between your teammates,click q and back to watching roofs. You don't have risk to be damaged from reaver or sentinel nades and hellfire. So, sorry alchi fans - it is not your patch.:rasp:

Shield bash - 275 damage, 8 sec cd. Whip of hunter has quite same range,but - 200 damage and 12 sec cd... Not so fair, don't you think so ?

And last topic - tyrants. Some players thought what giant brute vampire should easy handle tanky class. They were so wrong :(
I tryed to play with jump /marathon. I managed to knockdown 2/3 people, stopped, got charged by vanguard instanly after, killed in less than 2 seconds. I didn't even have time to realise what killed me so fast. I checked my damage chart after death - most of it was from 2 vanguards - 600+ 400, 630+ 530...That is just reminder how impaler axe is freaking OP. Problem is - if you don't use ignore pain instantly after engage(or your team will come just in time) - you are deadman. Two hunters can't focus tyrant down so fast as our new class.
Also to make things even worse devs gave him super ability - judgement. You are 30% hp or below ? Cya in hell! :D For tyrant it's 405 hp - quite a lot .Scout needs 3 arrows to kill it,but our tanky friend just click 1 button(of course tyrant need to be near him).
But don't think what only tyrant has problems. I would agree with idea of some random player - if you got caught by 2 vanguards - no chances for you.

I think it is time to end my wall of thoughts. I gave you examples, some maths results and etc. I hope devs will nerf him soon ( or buff other classes, but we all know what this not gonna happen :rasp:)
You want a feedback Square Enix? I'll be frank, NERF the bald one out... and Thank you for destroying my Win Record you jerks T-T

puff_ng
27th Feb 2015, 15:37
I'm seeing ridiculous damage numbers on the death screen.

Like 800 - 1,000+ from throwing axes.

The problem is they've made a class that can not only tank, but is a close - medium range DPS monster.

ElJefe59
27th Feb 2015, 17:48
I've been thinking and I don't think just turning down the numbers will do too much good. Here are a few suggestions (added in with what Corey already said will happen) that I think will put the Vanguard in a really balanced and still different from the other humans place.

-Give him a special mechanic that has a one ammo clip. I think it'd make more sense if after each throw he had a ~.5 second animation added on to his normal fire rate that shows him grabbing another ax from his waist or someplace. He throws the one he is holding and then has to grab another, it just makes sense. This would significantly tone down his DPS and make him more unique.

-turn down is ax damage just a little (it will still chunck quite a bit but not nearly as often with the suggestion above) (already stated by others)

-give his axes more arc, they are very good at medium range right now and that can be fixed with a little more of a realistic arc

-make shield bash a little less damaging so that the summoners stalkers can't be one shotted (already stated by others)

-Change his heal to a damage resist + speed maybe like 10-20% (a tank being able to heal himself and his whole team is a little op)

-Adding on to that last one, in the future a variation of that skill could be a regen for just himself (gives you a choice between a tanky support with the damage resist + speed for you team or a sustain tank with a health regen for just yourself)

-turn off any team buff stacking to limit 2, 3, and 4 vanguard OPness (already stated by others)

-add a small delay after putting his shield down to be able to throw his ax (not sure if there is one in place currently, I surely don't notice one)

I believe these changes would keep his pros: tanky, nice block mechanic, cc'er, team player/buffer

But give him some cons: needs a healer if he wants to help his team with a buff or is less of a team player in order to heal himself, lowest DPS potential on team, able to be overwhelmed by a lot of summons illusions and vampires due to a lack of damaging aoe abilities, and still a low range

With these changes the vanguard will have to make worthwhile choices in order to succeed. Instead of spamming his heal he would have to be smart and use a damage resist buff at a good time. Should I throw my ax at the reaver or the deciever? Should I be a more of a support style team player or more of a sustain style tank? Which target should I cc instead of spamming with the high damage and lowish cooldown? Maybe I want to have more damage and pick up Judgement?

I would love to play this class and make worthwhile decisions instead of being the jack of all trades and just spam my axes and abilities.

Guardian1uk
27th Feb 2015, 17:53
Overall I enjoy the Vanguard but there are a few things I'd like suggest.

*Reducing the dps and increasing the rounds per clip, I know these guys are brutal but their damage shouldn't equal the Alchemist's grenades.

One of the devs already responded about the damage vs alchemists


His DPS is lower than both Alchemist and Hunter. Further, he has very limited application at long range due to travel time on axes.

Guardian1uk
27th Feb 2015, 17:57
[QUOTE=Ygdrasel;2108171]
Shield Charge: I had the best run with this. Charging a Tyrant then putting an Impaler in him while he was down was a great way to ward the little monsters off. (Is there an achievement for charging a Tyrant while he charges you? Totally should be.)/QUOTE]

from personal experiance doing a shield charge at a tyrant while he's charging at you results in the vanguard getting flattened, because first time facinga tyrant on a vanguard the thought "what happens if you shield charge a charging tyrant?" occured to me and I got to test it several times, all times resulting in the vanguard being knocked down/back.

TheDreamcrusher
27th Feb 2015, 18:23
-Change his heal to a damage resist + speed maybe like 10-20% (a tank being able to heal himself and his whole team is a little op)

-Adding on to that last one, in the future a variation of that skill could be a regen for just himself (gives you a choice between a tanky support with the damage resist + speed for you team or a sustain tank with a health regen for just yourself)



I think these changes to Rousing Cry and the addition of another battle shout would be good ones.

leo2fish
28th Feb 2015, 02:45
First play today against Vanguards, Havn't unlocked it yet myself (1 more level :D) but already noticed a few questionable design choices with him.. Firstly, his throwing axes seems to have a ridiculously huge hitbox, as a vamp on a very high rooftop where humans can't hit you but you're able to just see the their heads pop up, the Vanguard axes have no issues recording a hit when the axes fly right above my head or shoulder. Damage wise it's well above what you'd expect.

Second - Playing as a tyrant is not fun against Vanguard as they seem like a direct counter? I favour Charge on Tyrant, however it's completely negated when Vanguard's charge knockdown overpowers Tyrants. I drop to the ground thinking what the hell can stop a Tyrant with TK forcefields running at max velocity? Nothing came into mind as I lay on the floor taking a beating for 1.5seconds and die. Wouldn't it be a smarter design choice if both charges CANCEL each other out instead of letting the Vanguard have the upperhand? Theyre able to chain a decent damaging combo right after Tyrant gets KD.

Aggggh
28th Feb 2015, 02:52
Don't know if it was already mentioned, but when playing VG for the first time, i instinctively tried to reload after each thrown axe, because they feel so much like the alchs nades. I found it hilarious being able to hit as hard as an alch, but reload the entire clip at once... I think that changing the reload mechanism would be the easiest fix for the VG's OPness. ^^

Ah just forgot to mention:
I really like the vanguard! Combined with the new summoner we'll now have a nice change in meta :)

+1 to this. Along with a stopping power and damage nerf this could go a long way towards fixing him.

SirRudyMan
28th Feb 2015, 14:01
The Vanguard (in the right hands) is seriously OP. Here's why:

1. The throwing axe (any) does too much damage.
1. a. The Impaler Axe has too much bleed dmg. Should be nerfed like the Piercing Pistols.

2. Rousing Cry does to much healing. Make it 1%, or better replace it with a defense buff. The Vanguard class shouldn't have healing anyways, leave it to the Alchemist and Prophet.

3. A Tyrant with 400 hp left should n0t be instant killed by Judgement. Make the threshold 15% instead of 30%. Or remove execute and replace it with a higher damage.

4. You can't hear or see when you're hit with an axe (at least I can't). Make the traveling sound of an axe louder and show an animation on impact (without stopping the vampire's movement/attack).

Tyneic
28th Feb 2015, 16:34
One of the devs already responded about the damage vs alchemists

I'm curious where the dev got that fact, but that's something else. Both Alchemist AND Hunter have either huge Recoil (Hunter) or a slower traveling arcing projectile (Alchemist). Also Alchemist hurts herself with explosives, while there is no downside using the axes in melee range (or is there? more dmg than his melees, very fast reload behind his shield), close to no arc for his projectiles and close to no recoil.

Flat out comparing DPS numbers simply isn't doing it. If there was a weapon that'd take off 50% off a vampires HP, 100% of the time, with one clip. It'd be hella op, no matter how huge the dps numbers are since you cannot miss with it. Vanguards axes are easier to hit, have no downside in melee and close to no recoil. Also peaking above a roof and losing 1/3 of your HP is no really fun.

The game is melee vs ranged. Vampires need to be in melee range. There's not a single vampire class that can kill a Vanguard (same skilllevel of players) in melee range. And even if there was a class, they'd lose 1/3 of their life to a single Impaler axe, before they can touch them.

Also getting charged into a corner and having the vanguard hit at least 1 axe after that (that hit is pretty much guaranteed) isn't fun. Getting knocked out of a kidnap / abduct isn't fun. Seeing your Illusions / Summons die in a splitsecond to a shieldbash isn't fun and dying in ignore pain due to judgment is even less fun.

But all that stuff isn't that bad, honestly. The combination of his easy to hit axes (I've been literally, blindly spamming axes onto rooftops and hitting summoners, deceivers and reavers all alike), his damage, his CC, his healing and him ignoring 90% of the damage thrown onto him (WHILE HE IS RELOADING AND SITTING BEHIND IS SHIELD, seriously, who came up with the idea of letting him reload behind the shield?) makes the class better than every other human class.

I'm expecting major nerfs and I'm pretty sure they will come.

Right now playing vampire isn't fun and to me, as a person who really enjoys Alchemist, Vanguard isn't fun and way too fat. I can manage having a bald vampire take out 30% of my screen, but when playing Vanguard, you have a bald human take off 60% of your screen. That's not fun either.

The class made the game less fun (to me). I know there are people who enjoy playing him (those will keep playing him after the nerfs) and I know there are people who enjoy playing stuff that's stronger than other stuff (those will probably not keep playing him) but to me the game just lost a huge amount of its fun parts.

Oh did I mention me being unable to tell when being hit by an axe?
Is it just me or do the axes make close to no sound when they hit you + have close to no animation?
It's not fun flying around and after 3 seconds, noticing you having only 1/3 of your HP left.

Ygdrasel
28th Feb 2015, 19:07
seriously, who came up with the idea of letting him reload behind the shield?

You have a shield. You're out of ammo. You're obviously going to put up the shield to protect yourself while you're busy getting more ammunition.

GenFeelGood
28th Feb 2015, 19:51
Does the shield actually function while it is up as you reload, that hasn't been my experience?

Anyway, from what I see and what from I have read: the general consensus is that the Impale is too strong, War is too slow, Splitter is too weak, and Kama is just right.

What if we bring the melee into the equation when making the adjustment?
*Kama, keep as is for the benchmark
*War, Projectile travels faster with slightly smaller projectile dps and increase melee damage
*Splitter, Increase projectile dps while reducing melee dps and increased melee attack rate
*Impale, Decrease projectile dps bleed and increase the melee dps by attaching a small bleed but with a slower melee attack rate.

Ghosthree3
1st Mar 2015, 01:01
>>2. Piercing pistols: (115 + 40) * 1.9 = 294.5!!! It is much simpler to hit the vamp than an axe.

The bleed doesn't start until you stop hitting them as the dot just keeps getting refreshed otherwise. Don't talk numbers when you don't know how they work.

Even if it didn't get refreshed and ticked during firing, it doesn't stack.

mf1234
1st Mar 2015, 02:39
Agree 100% with firehex.

The guy is blatantly OP. He fills to many roles and is the best in all of them.
1. Very high DPS with stackable dot (210 + 100) for single axe hit? WTFFFF
2. Tanky HP
3. Stun
4. Best Team Heal + Buff to movement speed.. WTFFFFF

The heal is what I have the most problem with. This patch needs to get approved through QA so damn quickly, the vanguard stack is making vs'ing humans even more difficult at high MMR

PencileyePirate
1st Mar 2015, 04:26
I think the impaler is the main offender in terms of damage, while the other axes' damages are pretty much OK. The huge ammo capacities should probably be cut ... clip sizes are fine though.

Removing heal stacking and reducing the damage a shield can take is a great start, but the CC on shield charge also feels too strong. It needs either a slightly longer startup animation or reduced maneuverability once activated (it currently can perform 180 degree turns.)

ApollosBow
1st Mar 2015, 04:58
I think the impaler is the main offender in terms of damage, while the other axes' damages are pretty much OK. The huge ammo capacities should probably be cut ... clip sizes are fine though.

Removing heal stacking and reducing the damage a shield can take is a great start, but the CC on shield charge also feels too strong. It needs either a slightly longer startup animation or reduced maneuverability once activated (it currently can perform 180 degree turns.)

Pretty much...............God im so sick of having to switch to sentinel for an entire match just to win, and if I want to have fun with another vamp class I pretty much just get run over by impaler axe impaler axe impaler axe...dead.............honestly, what did they have in mind, lets make a super class that has silencers attached to super axes? ......his shield is pretty much ignore pain, an experienced player can time it to the melee's....ugh and as said ^ that god damn axe takes off so much damage and allows players to track you (great troll btw), even if they just nerf that, people will still have the other which is 285 i believe?....so hopefully weapons across the board are nerfed and shield isn't used has invincibility (certain time limit to be able to hold it up maybe).

I love this game but god damn it become so frustrating since Vday (see what did there har har), hopefully the hotfixe is sooooooooon.

PencileyePirate
1st Mar 2015, 05:02
even if they just nerf that people will still have the other which is 285 i believe?....so hopefully weapons across the board are nerfed

The waraxe @ around 285 is realllly slow, so I think nerfing weapons across the board would be bad.

Another thing I forgot to bring up in my last post is that it's difficult to notice when axes are hitting you. Often vampires sit and let 2 hit them before they notice and escape, probably feeling as if they took all of the damage in a short burst. There definitely needs to be a hit-sound for vampires on the receiving end of Vanguard attacks ... and maybe more visible axe trails.

ApollosBow
1st Mar 2015, 05:15
The waraxe @ around 285 is realllly slow, so I think nerfing weapons across the board would be bad.

Then I wouldn't mind speeding up its rate of fire and lowering its damage......It doesn't sit right with me that a trowing axe has much more damage than Fullbore grenade (whats suppose to be a powerful grenade launcher). Currently 1 shot takes off more than a quarter of a vamps health, and with very little sound cue of the hit, (maybe fifth of tyrants?).

For Waraxe:
Either lower damage and and speed up rate of fire
or Significantly lower drop off damage to make medium range shot not worth it (I'm assuming every Vanguard isn't babe ruth with his arm afterall)

But holy hell think about outright nerfen the Impaler axe if reading this!

Mayhzon
1st Mar 2015, 13:04
My proposed changes to the Vanguard to make him balanced without overnerfing him:

Impaler axe: 205 damage + 15 damage x 4 over 2 seconds (265 damage overall instead of 310)
Waraxe: 265 damage instead of the current 285
Splitter Hatchet: 125 x 2 (250 overall instead of the current 240)
Throwing Axe (Default): 240 damage instead of 230
This way all his axes deal more homogenous damage and his damage output is more in line with the other classes.


Additionally, his Rousing Cry should be split into two different abilities:

Refreshing Surge: Heals player and allies near them for 4% health per second up to a maximum of 24% over 6 seconds, but increases the cooldown on abilities by 15% temporarily. When a player is attacked while Refreshing Surge is active, the healing is interrupted and all health that was gained by Refreshing Surge is lost.

Rousing Cry: Increases movement speed for player and allies near them by 30% for 10 seconds, but players that take damage from any source are slowed by 85% for 1 second. For every 450 health a player loses while they are under the effect of Rousing Cry, they are staggered.

This way you hit two birds with one stone: 4 stacks of Vanguards are now less likely to stack heals and doing so no longer allows them to negate damage in combat. Additionally, the secondary ability is much more rewarding to use, but also poses a risk to the team. It becomes a double-edged sword sorta and requires players to make proper use of the abilities. More importantly, it allows the vampires to do something about the abilities, which is a very important mechanic for online games. Good vampire teams can capitalize on incompetent Rousing Cry / Refreshing Surge spam and catch human teams with their pants down.

puff_ng
1st Mar 2015, 14:13
It is so ridiculous right now.

Close range DPS monster.

Amazing tank.

^Either of those two attributes alone could make an effective human class.

Decent heal/buff that can be spammed non-stop it may as well be an aura.

Ability that staggers.

Axes that can be fired constantly from medium range and do so much damage on hit that it doesn't matter if some of them miss.

If you go after him he'll absorb your attacks long enough for his team mates to kill you. If you don't go after him he'll destroy you with DPS.

What are his counters? Tyrant? Hah! The worst Vampire class in the game due to so many reasons I won't even bother listing them.

Sentinel? Sure, if the other team is dumb enough to only run Vanguards and Alchemists. Not to mention Sentinel requires decent work to be effective. Even a successful Kidnap/Abduct does hardly anything thanks to the Vanguards health and heal.

Summoner? They're just hard to deal with in general.

If the other side has a decent Vanguard and your side doesn't, good luck.

TacticalChicken
1st Mar 2015, 21:24
His DPS is lower than both Alchemist and Hunter. Further, he has very limited application at long range due to travel time on axes.

I haven't done extensive testing, but I found out that you can partially cancel the delay in between attacks by quickly pressing RMB (block) once. This probably allows the Vangaurd to have a moderate to significant damage per second increase, especially when using the 285 dmg axe.

Guardian1uk
1st Mar 2015, 23:41
My proposed changes to the Vanguard to make him balanced without overnerfing him:

Impaler axe: 205 damage + 15 damage x 4 over 2 seconds (265 damage overall instead of 310)
Waraxe: 265 damage instead of the current 285
Splitter Hatchet: 125 x 2 (250 overall instead of the current 240)
Throwing Axe (Default): 240 damage instead of 230
This way all his axes deal more homogenous damage and his damage output is more in line with the other classes.


The War axe tbt could use a damage BUFF instead of nerf to balance out just how damn slow it is.
The Impailer axe personaly would say is fine as is atm MOSTLY, and yes could possibly do with a little nerf Dps wise, and rather than 4x ticks it should do similar to prophets piercing pistols which is 2x, even close range it can be fun to try and land one onto a vamp when their jinxing all over the place trying to kill one of your team mates, you end up having to anticipate and that still leads to misses, where as with crossbows for example you can line up and then drill vamps with it.



Additionally, his Rousing Cry should be split into two different abilities:

Refreshing Surge: Heals player and allies near them for 4% health per second up to a maximum of 24% over 6 seconds, but increases the cooldown on abilities by 15% temporarily. When a player is attacked while Refreshing Surge is active, the healing is interrupted and all health that was gained by Refreshing Surge is lost.


Agreed it would be nice to see the "shouts" split, so you have rallying cry which increases the regeneration of players as per current, As well as speed up reloading times, however the part about "if the healing is interrupted and all health that was gained" is a terrible idea, Should vampire players loose all the health they've just regained from feeding if a human hits them with ANY ability/attack within 10 seconds? same sort of idea and still a VERY BAD idea.



Rousing Cry: Increases movement speed for player and allies near them by 30% for 10 seconds, but players that take damage from any source are slowed by 85% for 1 second. For every 450 health a player loses while they are under the effect of Rousing Cry, they are staggered.

This idea looks like it came directly from WoW and hunters auras specificly Aspect of the hawk, in Wow hunters have various escapes available to them, generaly humans in nosgoth have none (like no disengage for example).
Personaly I'd have it increase movement rate for x amount of seconds and also increase rate of fire for the same or possibly reduces weapon recoil instead of ROF.



This way you hit two birds with one stone: 4 stacks of Vanguards are now less likely to stack heals and doing so no longer allows them to negate damage in combat. Additionally, the secondary ability is much more rewarding to use, but also poses a risk to the team. It becomes a double-edged sword sorta and requires players to make proper use of the abilities. More importantly, it allows the vampires to do something about the abilities, which is a very important mechanic for online games. Good vampire teams can capitalize on incompetent Rousing Cry / Refreshing Surge spam and catch human teams with their pants down.

The devs have already said their going to change the shout so that you CAN NOT stack them on top of each other, plus the current form of cry is NOT spamable, it can ONLY be used once per 20 seconds, so it CAN NOT BE SPAMMED, you can have multiple vanguards use it each but they can NOT spam it.

Also noticed a flaw about Shield Rush which is it does NOT interupt tyrants ground slam or deceiver's backstab abilities EVEN IF you get it off first, in the case of the tyrant, it just ignores it and carries on without moving, and even if you get it off before a deceiver can get their backstab off, the backstab still goes through and the deceiver does not get knocked back/down.
I also think with shield rush where you have a tyrant using charge/marathon vs a vanguard using shield rush that BOTH of them should be staggered and fall back/down.

HeartLocker
2nd Mar 2015, 15:27
Is this a Tank class ?
Shield , High Health , Protection , CC ... check , check , check. What's up with the damage then ???


No , seriously , this is ridiculous ! He requires very little skill. No need to dodge , position , etc... Very hard to kill , and does highest DPS in game. In every match he dominates. Dominates 1v1 , dominates team fights , everything. Please do something about it fast because playing your game like this is frustrating.

DesolatedMaggot
2nd Mar 2015, 18:28
I see a lot of posts here claiming the Impaler Axe as the underlying cause of Vanguard's overpowered-ness. Truth is the Impaler Axes do roughly the same DPS as his Kamas. The Damage per Clip is quite massive, but still lower than that of Bolt Thrower. Raw damage is not his issue, as devs have said his damage is lower than that of both Hunter and Alchemist.

Dante_XIII_Inferno
2nd Mar 2015, 20:55
Is this a Tank class ?

No!

Edward334
2nd Mar 2015, 22:44
Hello , I presume this is the 400th rant about the vanguard so don't give me " use search before " . People who develop this game : PLEASE understand that this class is brutally overpowered. Teams are stacking 3-4 vanguards and they are untouchable : why ? 1. Immune to harassing because of that stupid heal . 2. EXTREMELY , RETARDEDLY HUGE DAMAGE. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE . I consider myself being a decent player considering I had a 3:1 k/d ratio ( didn't count assists) on the deceiver but now I get shut down , every game ,every encounter by 1-2 axes each vanguard . that means dying in 0.5 seconds . each . time . The shield is also incredibly stupid because it's impossible to kill 1 vanguard when he has at least another teammate around. In conclusion 1v1 vampire vs vanguard gets destroyed . I thought this is not how the game is supposed to work.

SO PLEASE : reduce damage to 50% , reduce accuracy , reduce SIGNIFICANTLY the fire rate but PLEASE do something because this is extremely stupid. PLEASE

PS: I know there are 50 threads but I NEED A PATCH. TODAY.

Ygdrasel
2nd Mar 2015, 23:21
I NEED A PATCH. TODAY.

Yeah, you maybe wanna dial back the entitlement? There's a thread full of this feedback (why didn't you use that one?) and they're already working on it.

Truhls
3rd Mar 2015, 00:32
I see a lot of posts here claiming the Impaler Axe as the underlying cause of Vanguard's overpowered-ness. Truth is the Impaler Axes do roughly the same DPS as his Kamas. The Damage per Clip is quite massive, but still lower than that of Bolt Thrower. Raw damage is not his issue, as devs have said his damage is lower than that of both Hunter and Alchemist.
It doesnt matter what the devs say. The Axes do Alpha DMG. Even if the dmg equals out to be the same or even less over a certain amount of time, he deals more up front faster than any other class in the game. And anyone who plays PvP games should know Alpha dmg is king.

Ygdrasel
3rd Mar 2015, 00:37
Is this a Tank class ?
Shield , High Health , Protection , CC ... check , check , check. What's up with the damage then ???


No , seriously , this is ridiculous ! He requires very little skill. No need to dodge , position , etc... Very hard to kill , and does highest DPS in game. In every match he dominates. Dominates 1v1 , dominates team fights , everything. Please do something about it fast because playing your game like this is frustrating.


Ridiculous is you stretching out the bloody page instead of taking a few extra seconds to resize that image. :rolleyes:

And yeah, Vanguard is ridiculous. They've already said they're working on a patch to try to balance him out.

puff_ng
3rd Mar 2015, 13:35
I love that the Vanguard can be hit by any Vamp's RMB attack and still solo and win.

GenFeelGood
4th Mar 2015, 01:55
Is there an offensive alternate ability to Rousing Cry on the way any time soon? Rousing Cry is nice but I'm more about causing pain to the enemy than bringing cures to my teammates; and even when I am healer, I'd rather go Alchemist

HeartLocker
4th Mar 2015, 02:14
Vanguard not OP ? The way I see it , this thread is split into two sides :
- The ones that play AGAINST Vanguards , and clearly see they're overpowered , backing up with actual in-game statistics.
- The ones that play Vanguards themselves , and argue that " Oh , other classes have more burst ! " just so they don't get nerfed.

Other classes do have more burst , but he competes VERY CLOSE to those classes. And the amount of tankiness and utility he has allows him to stay alive A LOT longer than any other class in the game. Those two combined means he's able to deliver chunks of damage carelessly. Either his damage needs to be nerfed , or his tankiness.

You don't have to listen to me , just look at the statistics.
http://i.imgur.com/MsMSCH9.jpg?1

TheDarknesFlame
4th Mar 2015, 23:36
I've noticed shield charge is completely negated (at least it seems to be from my observations) if it impacts a summoners stalker minions. I don't know if this is intentional or an issue due to the stalkers being recognized by the game as some kind of entity other than 'player'. I do hope this gets changed though, as it means plenty of wasted charges because the summons tend to stay right in the vanguards face.

jrkong
5th Mar 2015, 07:40
IMO hitbox nerf was rather excessive. With his damage brought back in line with the other classes I don't think the hitbox needed to be gimped as well. All the other classes have some degree of slack with their hit mechanics (hitscan weapons are self explanatory and Alchmist has AoE). Coupled with the lower fire rate it just seems a little unreasonable to make axes harder to land.

As for roof sniping? The solution is simple: make the hitbox get smaller as the axe travels further.

--Ram--
5th Mar 2015, 10:35
You don't have to listen to me , just look at the statistics.
http://i.imgur.com/MsMSCH9.jpg?1

You could post exactly the same stats with any class, this is entirely meaningless. A capable player in tends to end most rounds with a stat sheet looking like this, regardless of the class they choose.

His weakness isn't burst, it's being less capable at hitting ranged targets than hunter/scout/prophet.


I've noticed shield charge is completely negated (at least it seems to be from my observations) if it impacts a summoners stalker minions. I don't know if this is intentional or an issue due to the stalkers being recognized by the game as some kind of entity other than 'player'. I do hope this gets changed though, as it means plenty of wasted charges because the summons tend to stay right in the vanguards face.

I've noticed this too, doesn't quite feel right to me either.

Sasha_Vykos
5th Mar 2015, 10:55
Vanguard not OP ? The way I see it , this thread is split into two sides :
- The ones that play AGAINST Vanguards , and clearly see they're overpowered , backing up with actual in-game statistics.
- The ones that play Vanguards themselves , and argue that " Oh , other classes have more burst ! " just so they don't get nerfed.

Other classes do have more burst , but he competes VERY CLOSE to those classes. And the amount of tankiness and utility he has allows him to stay alive A LOT longer than any other class in the game. Those two combined means he's able to deliver chunks of damage carelessly. Either his damage needs to be nerfed , or his tankiness.

You don't have to listen to me , just look at the statistics.
http://i.imgur.com/MsMSCH9.jpg?1

post a screen of a single round with casual players should really be the proof that something is op?really? :D