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puff_ng
22nd Feb 2015, 13:27
I feel that it pretty much guarantees a kill against half the vampire classes.

Reavers and Tyrants - which need to activate their skills after entering battle - and Sentinels on foot are as good as dead if hit by a Hex Shot.

Deceiver depends how quickly you react to his presence.

Summoner not so much cause she's usually on a rooftop or attacks behind her summons.

Khalith
22nd Feb 2015, 13:36
Yes, it is. Vamps need to be able to use their escape moves to break it, once that changes, the ability will be fine.

GenFeelGood
22nd Feb 2015, 14:32
Yes, it is. Vamps need to be able to use their escape moves to break it, once that changes, the ability will be fine.

+1, couldn't agree more

Aggggh
22nd Feb 2015, 14:50
Still don't get why they changed it to drop sentinels from the air. I'd have been fine with it canceling a kidnap or something, but the fact that it used to not drop sentinels was one of its few downsides.

As for escape moves, vamps can still wall climb and dodge roll with it. Allowing escape moves would make the skill entirely pointless. Imo, as with most prophet skills, it mostly just needs a better tell/longer animation. Maybe a quick reload like animation before she shoots it for example.

Khalith
22nd Feb 2015, 15:25
As for escape moves, vamps can still wall climb and dodge roll with it. Allowing escape moves would make the skill entirely pointless. Imo, as with most prophet skills, it mostly just needs a better tell/longer animation. Maybe a quick reload like animation before she shoots it for example.

It would just put it more on par with the hunter's bola. Hex shot fires straight instead of needing to be arced, has the slow, a relatively short cd, drops sentinels out of their flight, pulls deceiver out of shroud/disguise, and gives your teammate some breathing room while being chased by a vamp, or forces the the vamp to pop their escape move and retreat. If the vamps could pop their escape move out of it the ability wouldn't be even close to worthless.

DesolatedMaggot
22nd Feb 2015, 15:48
Hex seems fine to me. See a glowing pistol? Dodge. The only advantage Hex Shot has over Bola is that it prevents escape abilities for a short time/300 damage. Bola is stronger in most situations and far more reliable.


Still don't get why they changed it to drop sentinels from the air. I'd have been fine with it canceling a kidnap or something, but the fact that it used to not drop sentinels was one of its few downsides.
Still is one if its downsides. Hex Shot only grounds Sentinels when they're winding up Kidnap, near as I can tell (requires some testing). It does not prevent Sentinels from grabbing someone unless timed properly as mentioned above, nor does it stop them from flying again if they do land.


It would just put it more on par with the hunter's bola. Hex shot fires straight instead of needing to be arced, has the slow, a relatively short cd, drops sentinels out of their flight, pulls deceiver out of shroud/disguise, and gives your teammate some breathing room while being chased by a vamp, or forces the the vamp to pop their escape move and retreat. If the vamps could pop their escape move out of it the ability wouldn't be even close to worthless.

Hex Shot does have an arc, not as steep as bola, granted but it is there. Hex Shot CD is 16s, Bola is 12s. Bola does a farrrrr better job of grounding Sentinels, and both do the same to Shroud/Disguise.

Also everyone here is forgetting that Hex Shot is very spotty about stopping abilities where as Bola is 100%, when it connects. I'm sure everyone here has been thrown by a giant green Tyrant at some point..

Khalith
22nd Feb 2015, 16:19
Hex Shot does have an arc, not as steep as bola, granted but it is there. Hex Shot CD is 16s, Bola is 12s. Bola does a farrrrr better job of grounding Sentinels, and both do the same to Shroud/Disguise.

Also everyone here is forgetting that Hex Shot is very spotty about stopping abilities where as Bola is 100%, when it connects. I'm sure everyone here has been thrown by a giant green Tyrant at some point..

Like I said, "more on par" not "equal."

Aggggh
22nd Feb 2015, 17:22
Like I said, "more on par" not "equal."

"On par with" is an idiom for equal/at the same level with.



Still is one if its downsides. Hex Shot only grounds Sentinels when they're winding up Kidnap, near as I can tell (requires some testing). It does not prevent Sentinels from grabbing someone unless timed properly as mentioned above, nor does it stop them from flying again if they do land.

I've dropped plenty of sentinels with it that aren't using kidnap. It is kind of iffy on canceling kidnap, but it's like that with a lot of other abilities too (I've seen one too many green Tyrants throwing people).

Khalith
22nd Feb 2015, 17:43
"On par with" is an idiom for equal/at the same level with.

Right and my point was giving the vamps the ability to use their escape move out of it would bring it closer to being like the bola which I feel is a better balanced CC move.

Three_Pies
22nd Feb 2015, 20:22
Hex Shot is insanely multipurpose, to be honest. Currently, it;
1) Silences the target, including escape / resistance abilities (unlike Bola),
2) Slows the target to a crawl (still being able to roll is little compensation, victims are still a huge target),
3) Prevents victims from performing regular attacks,
4) Is fast moving and not especially difficult to land,
5) Has quite a long duration,
6) Has a huge damage threshold to say it does all of the above - earning it the nickname of 'death sentence' with my friends and I.

Really, it shouldn't do all of these things. It's basically a superior Bola in its current form. I agreed with its first rework - when it gave a free Ignore Pain before it was pretty annoying when misused by teammates. But currently it just does everything, if it hits someone it's practically a free kill.

Contrast with two balanced CCs; Bola prevents more things but can be broken out of by blowing valuable cooldowns (usually forcing a vampire out of the fight early), and Disabling Curse is a powerful silencing AoE which can even prevent escape abilities, but it won't magically save your life if you land it on a vampire that's about to claw you to death.

So yes, I think Hex Shot is a little too ubiquitous right now. Even if it's not a free kill (maybe you just don't want to fight that particular vampire right that second), it lasts for long enough and prevents enough action that said vampire will probably watch his entire team die. Or maybe he can watch the Prophet they were a frame away from killing heal right in front of them, then turn her guns around to finish the job.

The latter is probably more of an issue with the fact that human healing is really stupidly quick, but that's for another thread I guess.

ApollosBow
23rd Feb 2015, 00:58
Need to be a second shorter and be cancelled when Vamps use abilities opposite to the effect.......Haste....Evasion...Enrage...Ignore Pain...Also should still be able to pop Illusions and use summon Shield.

DesolatedMaggot
23rd Feb 2015, 05:53
I honestly do not understand this argument at all. I see Bola as the far stronger CC, it does everything Hex Shot does and better, only significant upside Hex has is that it prevents escape skills. Don't get wrong, its a strong factor but 300 damage is not your entire health bar, you can use your escape immediately after OR escape during it's duration by flying, climbing, rolling out of LOS. You're far more mobile in Hex than you are in Bola.

Ygdrasel
23rd Feb 2015, 06:27
you can use your escape immediately after

Immediately after...You're dead? 300 may not be your entire health bar but it could be close, depending on the scenario. And it's not exactly a challenge to tear through the remaining health in either case seeing as a slowed target scaling a wall is hardly difficult to hit.

It disables and slows a target, lasts longer than a bola, drops Sentinels, is unbreakable if it lands, lands often because it's really easy to use, and deals damage.

It does everything a Bola does and also can't be broken. How is bola better again?

--Ram--
23rd Feb 2015, 10:07
I don't think it would hurt to allow escapes from hex or add some other trade off so it isn't just bola 2.0, also it wouldn't hurt to finally address the brokenness of the ability and make it reliable.

That said many people seem to be listing qualities of hex that are shared by bola. It really isn't that different. Hex vs bola on a sentinel or deceiver is basically the exact same result, except sometimes the green sent picks you up and kills you. The bola sent always dies.

Bola on a climbing ignore pain tyrant guarantees a kill, hex does very little. Bola has a larger hitbox. Saying hex slows targets is not a point of difference since bola prevents rolling, it effectively slows them just as much. Hex having a larger threshold before breaking is irrelevant in most circumstances.

As a player who uses primarily hunter and prophet I value both abilities about the same.

Three_Pies
23rd Feb 2015, 17:35
That said many people seem to be listing qualities of hex that are shared by bola. It really isn't that different. Hex vs bola on a sentinel or deceiver is basically the exact same result, except sometimes the green sent picks you up and kills you. The bola sent always dies.

Except that if a Deceiver gets hit by Bola before he uses his escapes, he can still use Shade or Illusions to try to get away or contribute to the fight. And if said Sentinel took his escape ability, Takeoff, he'd be able to use that to escape the Bola. Hex Shot, on the other hand, is near enough guaranteed death for a Sentinel on the ground.


Bola on a climbing ignore pain tyrant guarantees a kill, hex does very little. Bola has a larger hitbox. Saying hex slows targets is not a point of difference since bola prevents rolling, it effectively slows them just as much. Hex having a larger threshold before breaking is irrelevant in most circumstances.

Bola on a climbing Ignore Pain Tyrant doesn't exactly guarantee a kill; if he thought ahead and started climbing early, he should have time to seek another escape. And any focus on the Tyrant with that resistance active can be a boon for the vampires, being inefficient focus. Either way, I'd rather be stuck to the ground for ~3.3 seconds with Ignore Pain on than never being able to activate it in the first place. The point is, Bola can be escaped, and if you have no way to escape it - counter CC on cooldown, not taking escape ability, etc. - then you goofed and are being punished. However, the target of Hex Shot makes little difference, no one can reliably avoid any of the damage except a Tyrant with Ignore Pain already active (and who targets those with Hex Shot?). The slow is barely the issue, I don't think many would argue that the slow is particularly OP; but it's just another effect heaped on to the many.

I think you're looking at the damage threshold in the wrong way. 300 is not the limit of damage one can take before they can activate their escape. The silence will only break on the exact hit that results in a sum which surpasses that value. If someone did, for example, 200-299 damage, the next shot could still be a full charged Scout shot. Or an Alchemist could be piling on Viscous Cannon blobs, or a Hunter could even attach a Sticky Grenade, just a few examples. And, seeing as the bright green glow of a hexed vampire basically shouts 'vulnerable target' to any human paying attention, this kind of nonsense stacks up fast.

Given that the Hex Shot itself deals 100 damage, 400 is actually the bare minimum of damage that will be taken. That's 400 damage just for landing that shot, nearly impossible to avoid, with a high probability that it will actually be much more damage than that. Or 3.5 seconds where the victim can do nothing useful; enough time to escape, get help from teammates or even heal right there and then. It's too useful.

Bola is a reliable CC if you connect it; if a vampire has to pop an escape, they're still essentially CCd and out of the fight, it's just that they won't automatically take an obscene amount of damage and/or die from it. Humans still win from the exchange. Disabling Curse can be really powerful, especially in prediction of an incoming escape, but it doesn't leave the victim totally helpless, so people are okay with it. If Hex Shot didn't prevent escape, then it would be fair - but then it'd just be a Bola that slows someone instead of them not being able to climb. I can't think of alternative changes right now but I wouldn't want it to be so similar.

magus448
23rd Feb 2015, 17:47
I've sworn I sometimes miss point blank hex shots due to nature of the over the shoulder camera/crosshair. Keeps going off to the right rather than the hulking mass in front of me.

Though I also sometimes run into door frames cause of that too.

--Ram--
23rd Feb 2015, 17:59
Except that if a Deceiver gets hit by Bola before he uses his escapes, he can still use Shade or Illusions to try to get away or contribute to the fight. And if said Sentinel took his escape ability, Takeoff, he'd be able to use that to escape the Bola. Hex Shot, on the other hand, is near enough guaranteed death for a Sentinel on the ground.


Yes in these scenarios I would rather be bola'd. Yet illusions or shroud won't stop a half decent team killing the guy, so it still isn't a big difference. Good sents use airstrike 95% of the time so the takeoff scenario rarely matters. Regardless I did agree that allowing escapes from hex would be fine.



Bola on a climbing Ignore Pain Tyrant doesn't exactly guarantee a kill; if he thought ahead and started climbing early, he should have time to seek another escape. And any focus on the Tyrant with that resistance active can be a boon for the vampires, being inefficient focus. Either way, I'd rather be stuck to the ground for ~3.3 seconds with Ignore Pain on than never being able to activate it in the first place. The point is, Bola can be escaped, and if you have no way to escape it - counter CC on cooldown, not taking escape ability, etc. - then you goofed and are being punished. However, the target of Hex Shot makes little difference, no one can reliably avoid any of the damage except a Tyrant with Ignore Pain already active (and who targets those with Hex Shot?). The slow is barely the issue, I don't think many would argue that the slow is particularly OP; but it's just another effect heaped on to the many.


My point was bola does have some upsides, some people were suggesting it has none. A hexed tyrant with ignore pain is not going to outright die, regardless of whether he cast it beforehand. Ignore pain the second it breaks and you still have at worst half of your life left, enough to still be a threat.



I think you're looking at the damage threshold in the wrong way. 300 is not the limit of damage one can take before they can activate their escape. The silence will only break on the exact hit that results in a sum which surpasses that value. If someone did, for example, 200-299 damage, the next shot could still be a full charged Scout shot. Or an Alchemist could be piling on Viscous Cannon blobs, or a Hunter could even attach a Sticky Grenade, just a few examples. And, seeing as the bright green glow of a hexed vampire basically shouts 'vulnerable target' to any human paying attention, this kind of nonsense stacks up fast.


I understand how the mechanic works perfectly well. The reason I said the difference is in many cases irrelevant is because in most scenarios the guy who gets cced will then be instagibbed by focus fire or ignored while a more immediate threat is eliminated. The breaking at 200 or 300 or 400 doesnt matter a great deal if he dies in 1 second, or if he gets ignored.

Anyway, yes hex is good and the lack of counterplay available (other than just not getting hit to begin with) is perhaps not good for the game. Still I would put this a long way down the list of things that need attention.

Ghosthree3
23rd Feb 2015, 19:01
I think the thing that sets bola above hex for me comes down to being able to roll with hex shot - and climb - but not with bola. At least with hex shot you can attempt to dodge some shots and make your enemy waste bullets, bola gives you no such opportunity and unless they are distracted by your team mates you are going to take 90% of the bullets headed your way.

PencileyePirate
24th Feb 2015, 05:55
No ... hex shot is fine.

The only thing that might need a fix is projectiles' hit detection, as the hitbox seems wider than the shot.

Whether one is stronger/weaker than the other depends entirely on the situation. I prefer Bolas for sentinels and summoners (delays flight & shield escapes) but Hex for tyrants and reavers (delays IP, SS, & evasion escapes.) I don't really have a preference for countering deceiver; I just want the CC to hit before he does.

Another thing to consider whether you're using your CCs offensively or defensively. I think bolas are better for defense because they often force a hard disengage: vampires usually pop a skill to get out of the fight, waiting on cooldown or regeneration to reengage. Hex forces a soft disengage and leaves some opportunity for offense: vampires will quickly move away, buying you some time and allowing your team to get chip damage as they run.


.... only significant upside Hex has is that it prevents escape skills. Don't get wrong, its a strong factor but 300 damage is not your entire health bar, you can use your escape immediately after OR escape during it's duration by flying, climbing, rolling out of LOS. You're far more mobile in Hex than you are in Bola.

QFT. Getting hit by a bola allows escape skills but not evasive movement, and vice versa for hex shot.

puff_ng
24th Feb 2015, 10:24
Some of these comments seem strange to me, in that they don't seem to reflect the reality of the game at all.

What kind of players are people versing where, after being hit with a Hex Shot at close range, you can simply roll or climb away while slowed before you are killed or seriously wounded?

How is the 300 damage threshold even relevant when the enemy team will do many times that amount in damage after they spot and continue to track you immediately after you've broken HS?

The only time Bola is more effective than HS is in bringing down climbing enemies.

Ghosthree3
24th Feb 2015, 10:36
Your thought process doesn't reflect the reality of the game though, unless a player went in solo if they get hexed then their team will be able to jump on them while you waste a few bullets or abilities by rolling, it will break early enough to blow some cooldowns and do some work unless you got hexed under half hp.

Of course, bola is the same, just that they wont waste as many bullets as much as they will hit you with, and while you can use some abilities to break it they put you out of the fight and the human team then gets 5+ seconds of 3v4 combat while you sit around useless.

Necro71
24th Feb 2015, 18:25
I think Hex is ok as it is now. You dont see it being overused (4 prophets Hexing all the time) like you see other classes.

PencileyePirate
24th Feb 2015, 19:28
Some of these comments seem strange to me, in that they don't seem to reflect the reality of the game at all.

What kind of players are people versing where, after being hit with a Hex Shot at close range, you can simply roll or climb away while slowed before you are killed or seriously wounded?

How is the 300 damage threshold even relevant when the enemy team will do many times that amount in damage after they spot and continue to track you immediately after you've broken HS?

They actually reflect the reality of the game quite well. Your comments sound strange to me in that they don't acknowledge the presence of teammates.


Attack with your team and there's usually time to roll away and break LOS before taking too much damage.

Effectively use skills to escape when HS breaks and the enemy team won't be doing much damage after it's broken.

If you solo engage then all of the things you claim will happen probably will.

Firehex
24th Feb 2015, 19:45
HS imho one of the most OP human ability in the game and i don't want any changes to it. Nerf hs ? Prophet class will be useless and people maybe will use it only as support with heal/shield in competive games. It is doing only 100 damage and you still can roll and climb walls. That is enough.

How to make this ability most OP :
1) If you shoot in tyrant in ignore pain or reaver with haste - it will remove this buff.
2) Dropping sentinels in fly
3) Increase damage
4) Make fall vampire from walls

So, don't touch hex shot. :mad:

Three_Pies
24th Feb 2015, 21:00
QFT. Getting hit by a bola allows escape skills but not evasive movement, and vice versa for hex shot.

So you're gonna tell me that being able to roll (while running at a severely reduced pace) and climb is better for survivability than escape cooldowns, which also re-enable running and climbing? Give me a break. Hex Shot and Bola are clearly not on the same level, not even close. Compare the raw stats, even;

Hex Shot
Cooldown: 15
Damage: 100
Effect Duration: 3.5
Damage Threshold: 300
Effects: -50% Move Speed, Disabled Attack, Disabled Offensive Abilities, Disabled Escape Abilities.

Bola
Cooldown: 12
Effect Duration: 3.3
Damage Threshold: 325
Effects: Disabled Roll, Disabled Climb, Disabled Attacks, Disabled Offensive Abilities.

Poison Bola
Cooldown: 20
Damage Over Time: 160/2s
Effect Duration: 2.8
Damage Threshold: 325*
Effects: Disabled Roll, Disabled Climb, Disabled Attacks, Disabled Offensive Abilities.
*After testing, it appears that the DOT from the Poison Bola counts towards the damage threshold.

So, statistically, Hex Shot:
Cannot be broken out of via escape-type abilities (you are far more likely to reach damage threshold upon being hit by Hex Shot);
Has a 'damage + threshold' of 400 compared to Bola's 325 and Poison Bola's 325;
Yet has only 3 more seconds of cooldown than Bola, and 5 less than Poison Bola;
Lasts 0.2 seconds longer than Bola and 0.7 seconds longer than Poison Bola.

For a total silence, all of that is still incredibly strong no matter how you slice it. Being chained up by one of the Hunter's CCs generally results in having to pop an escape cooldown. Being hit by a Hex Shot usually results in taking 400 damage, then popping escape cooldowns to try and prevent death - if they aren't dead already. If you were at all on the offensive, then trying to roll and climb away is quite often very ineffective.

I think if the Hex Shot were brought more in-line, the Prophet would still see plenty of play. We all know the use of Draining Curse as a generally useful AoE with lifestealing capabilities (especially useful against Summoners running Stalkers), and this is a damned good crowd control:

Disabling Curse
Cooldown: 25
Area Damage: 200
Area Radius: 300
Effect Duration: 3
Effects: Disabled Offensive Abilities, Disabled Escape Abilites.

In exchange for the very powerful utility of removing what can often be a vampire's only chance of escape, without even having a damage threshold (and with the additional possibility of effecting multiple vampires and dealing a decent nuke), the Disabling Curse suffers important weaknesses: the vampire retains his mobility and ability to attack, and a badly aimed cast will result in a self-silence and a bit of self-damage. I've been running this for a while because I got bored with the monotony and cheese of Hex Shot, and it's more than usable. If you want to stop a vampire attacking you, use a Bola - and if you want to stop a vampire from using abilities or escaping, use a Disabling Curse; don't give one class all of the answers.

If Hex Shot is to be left in its current form, I'd suggest swapping its cooldown with Disabling Curse (where, to be fair, I think 25 seconds is a tad too long) - Hex Shot can remain superior but have a hefty cooldown of 25 seconds as a weakness, and Disabling Curse could have a reduced cooldown to 15 (more likely 20?) seconds and we'll see more people using it...


I think Hex is ok as it is now. You dont see it being overused (4 prophets Hexing all the time) like you see other classes.

...Because by the way, this isn't true. Almost every Prophet I see uses Hex Shot. And I only see Draining Curse come out when there's a few too many Summoners.

PencileyePirate
24th Feb 2015, 21:27
So you're gonna tell me that being able to roll (while running at a severely reduced pace) and climb is better for survivability than escape cooldowns, which also re-enable running and climbing? Give me a break.

Uhh ... that's not what I said at all. I said their use is situational and so there are times when each is better than the other.

That is: bola tends to be better when they don't have escape skills, hex is better when they do.