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View Full Version : Team Deathmatch - Shrine Idea



mf1234
18th Feb 2015, 22:37
Reasoning:
Humans are extremely difficult to break in high MMR games when they are established in certain points on maps. Fort on vale is a perfect example. Ultimately, I feel that most maps 99% of combat ends up in a certain area while the rest of the map goes lacking.

The cooldown on the shrines are too low ultimately resulting in humans simply sitting in one spot.

After watching the ESL games on youtube, this only reinforced this point even further when most of the game is sat watching humans sit in 1 spot and not move.

I played NS1 for 7 years, NS2 for 3 years both at top-level. In Natural Selection (assymetric game featuring melee vs range), the ranged team are FORCED to navigate the map. Certain points of the map are beneficial to the melee team, other points of the map are beneficial to the ranged team. It's up to the melee team to ensure they are coordinated and ready fast enough to attack the ranged team when they are at their weakest position.

This is further reinforced that the melee team are stronger late game than the ranged team. Creating a time race for the ranged team to move FAST and not go at a snails pace around the map.

Currently with the main game type being death match, this is simply not a requirement.

Idea 1:
A shrine can only be used when its opposite shrine has been used. Example: Bottom of map shrine used, humans must navigate the map to reach the shrine at the top of the map.

Idea 2: New Game format - Conquest
Time: 15 minutes
Objective: Hold flags around the map for x seconds/minutes. Once x seconds/minutes reached, flag is captured awarding 10 points. No further points awarded for flags already captured.
Details: Shrines are not located at flags, but scattered between the flags.
Victory: 100 points

My personal thought is Conquest would be a great addition to this game. Encourages great risk/reward as well with splitting teams for multi-capping.

Ultimately I'm open to anything that encourages humans to be FORCED to move around the map, forcing them to navigate through area's of the map they are more vulnerable then standing entrenched in the strongest possible positions.

--Ram--
18th Feb 2015, 23:46
Good post mf.

I also think many of the current problems with the game can be attributed the way TDM plays out, with humans ultimately dictating the game and choosing the ideal combat location in most circumstances.

1. It creates boring repetitive scenarios and severely limits creativity.
2. It makes the game quite unfun to play during the vamp round since it always feels like an uphill battle, and you are basically forced to make bad plays in unfavorable scenarios because that's just how it works.
3. Vamps making mistakes and getting chipped pre-fight is punished heavily, often with no way to recover other than engage in an even more one sided fight and die. Humans getting chipped or finishing a fight on half health is usually a non issue, healing is far easier.
4. As mf mentioned a large portion of the map is never used in the average game.



Ultimately I'm open to anything that encourages humans to be FORCED to move around the map, forcing them to navigate through area's of the map they are more vulnerable then standing entrenched in the strongest possible positions.

This is how I've felt about the game for some time, to me it is what TDM lacks and why it becomes somewhat painful to play. Some people are simply asking for buffs to vampires to solve this, however I really don't see vampires inherently lacking the power to win as the reason they lose. Solving the situation through vampire buffs will also undoubtedly lead to more rookie tears since vampires win their rounds in low skill matches already. The reason vampires feel weak is that they never get to attack on their own terms.

A mechanic that forces humans to move around would make this far more likely to occur. It would also create cat and mouse games where vampires attempt to predict human movements and capitalize on them, while humans may try to do something unpredictable to throw the vampires off.

As for the suggestions, I think a modification to the shrine system is a potentially simple way of changing up TDM and making it more dynamic and interesting/varied. I would be happy to see something along this line implemented.

The Conquest mode concept strikes me as being quite similar to Flashpoint, and I think what the devs were trying to accomplish and what is being suggested here are similar. Whether or not Flashpoint achieves what it was aiming to do I can't really say, as I still have very little experience playing it since it is impossible to queue for. Either way anything that hands back vampires some of the power to influence when and how engagements happen is going to be a good thing in my eyes.

On the topic of not being able to play Flashpoint
I can't help but feel it is time to provide some kind of enticement to get people to actually play Flashpoint so it can be tested and improved. It seems to me that without a carrot on a stick such as a double XP Flashpoint week, the sheep will continue to play TDM exclusively and very little feedback will be obtained.

mf1234
19th Feb 2015, 00:08
I haven't even played flashpoint, its hard enough getting a game in TDM queue. Can't be bothered waiting for hours for a flashpoint game.


Good post mf.

I also think many of the current problems with the game can be attributed the way TDM plays out, with humans ultimately dictating the game and choosing the ideal combat location in most circumstances.


You know its funny, I played with a pre-made team and after winning the first engagement we all decided together to not attack humans until they moved away from their stronghold.

Humans started abusing our team stating that it was on us to attack them, even though we had the lead and ultimately if nothing happened for the next 10 minutes we would of won the round.

They ended up leaving, saying we wern't playing the game properly hahaha.

PollyEsther
19th Feb 2015, 00:17
Interesting thought, may be something like limiting each shrine node to 2 shared between all humans, heals per cooldown period? this would encourage humans to pick who could heal at each point kinda like how vamps can share bodies?

--Ram--
19th Feb 2015, 01:24
Humans started abusing our team stating that it was on us to attack them, even though we had the lead and ultimately if nothing happened for the next 10 minutes we would of won the round.

They ended up leaving, saying we wern't playing the game properly hahaha.

Yeah, the idea that vampires MUST attack the humans is indeed artificial. Basically a self imposed way to account for a design flaw in TDM, to prevent boredom despite not always being a good tactical choice. The ESL "corrects" this by saying the vamps can't camp for more than three minutes, while allowing humans to camp freely for the entire game. That may indeed be the best solution but it doesn't do the vampires any favors in terms of winning rounds. They could just as easily say the humans need to relocate every 3 minutes.

P.S. Glad you guys didn't do that to Rod and I last night :D

Ygdrasel
19th Feb 2015, 01:32
Interesting thought, may be something like limiting each shrine node to 2 shared between all humans, heals per cooldown period? this would encourage humans to pick who could heal at each point kinda like how vamps can share bodies?

Vamps can share bodies?

Shrines should enter cooldown after two uses. Force them on the move.

ApollosBow
19th Feb 2015, 01:35
They ended up leaving, saying we wern't playing the game properly hahaha.

So you and your team had the lead and to keep it the plan was....what? evade humans or sit in a spot where they cant reach you for...10 minutes...........ha, ye.....good one. :mad2:

Fair enough if this is 1 minute to go but 10....hell anything over 2 minute would make that to cheap to feel like a win for me. To each his own though.

--Ram--
19th Feb 2015, 01:58
So you and your team had the lead and to keep it the plan was....what? evade humans or sit in a spot where they cant reach you for...10 minutes...........ha, ye.....good one. :mad2:

Fair enough if this is 1 minute to go but 10....hell anything over 2 minute would make that to cheap to feel like a win for me. To each his own though.

Honestly this strategy is about on par with camping in the impenetrable fortress on Valeholm in my eyes. It puts the impetus on the humans to actually do something about an almost unbeatable situation or lose. Exactly the situation when a strong premade camps the Valeholm fort and waits for the vamps to remove them, despite them having line of sight of the entire ******* map and there being no satisfactory methods to engage without taking massive damage in order to get close.

Ygdrasel
19th Feb 2015, 02:13
Either way anything that hands back vampires some of the power to influence when and how engagements happen is going to be a good thing in my eyes.

If that was Flashpoint's goal, I'd wager it did decent. Humans still decide the area of combat by picking which points to take in which order but there are no real camp spots. I think map changes and health station changes are a better path than a game mode though.