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Bridgetkfisher
18th Feb 2015, 13:13
Replaying TR2013, noticed there were TONS of cut scenes, just starting the game has barely if any gameplay. When control of the character is given, she takes a few steps and BOOM cut scene looking at a life raft, then she moves down the cliff side to the plane and BOOM another cut scene showing the plane, then she gets on the log and BOOM another cut scene. "Remember Me" was the worst at this, everytime an area was entered the game would grind to a dead stop while a camera panned the environment, worse was it had nothing to do with story.

For Tomb Raider I never cared much about the story, the simple go here get this item was fine because she was after treasure. Fetch quests work for tomb raider because that was pretty much what the game was. I think the franchise is going in the wrong direction focusing so much on making a movie with endless cut scenes instead of gameplay. A game to me should be interactive, I even liked the qte's in TR2013, some of the best use of qte in a game since RE4 I felt. Except how QTE's were used in the final boss battle, which there really wasnt a final boss battle. I really wanted to shoot Himiko in the face, instead we get a cut scene, instead of fighting a final boss its a cut scene with qte's. TR is awesome and a good story makes it even more awesome, the cut scenes that just look around have nothing to do with the story. Maybe those that look around take away from the seriousness of the story ones making them lose their impact since they desensitize the player to their impact on the story?

The art of video games is telling a story through gameplay, to me its a cheap cop out when cut scenes are used to progress a story rather than the gameplay. I agree with the CEO at Nintendo who thinks games are becoming too much like movies where cut scenes can literally happen like in TR2013 3 or 4 within a span of 2 minutes of open world gameplay. I get having them as an intro or when reaching an objective, but not every 5 seconds to just look around like that plane, or down at a boat, that is just silly. As a gamer there should be less cut scenes and more story told through gameplay? The cut scenes I think for TR should just stick to the story and not be everytime she notices something new, kind of killed the exploration just a bit for me as a player since the game did it for me. The environments are very creative and I enjoy exploring them, when the camera does it I noticed I kinda did that less in this TR game than others.

Tecstar70
18th Feb 2015, 14:57
I think that cutscenes work well to establish a story and particular events in the narrative. Early on in the game there was a lot of stop start until Lara got to the first campfire but after that point it evened out a bit. Thats something you might expect from a franchise reboot - a lot of story establishment. They are obviously trying to tell an important back story to an important character and there are things that just can't be revealed through pure gameplay. Once you have completely played through again let us know if you view has changed.

Bridgetkfisher
18th Feb 2015, 15:07
I think that cutscenes work well to establish a story and particular events in the narrative. Early on in the game there was a lot of stop start until Lara got to the first campfire but after that point it evened out a bit. Thats something you might expect from a franchise reboot - a lot of story establishment. They are obviously trying to tell an important back story to an important character and there are things that just can't be revealed through pure gameplay. Once you have completely played through again let us know if you view has changed.

Was thinking about this with the dev vids about the new TR game. Side quests are described as a reward type system, might be better if their used to further explore the characters roots, backstory, development and all that instead of just being used for rewards? This might allow a good blending of the overall story of the game, along with the origin story arc their still doing? The reward could be learning even more about the new character like taking parts from the comic and smacking them right into the game as side quests for further character development instead of just a damage bonus item, or reward based system?

Dont mind the cut scenes for the story, just find all the other cut scenes that just look around annoying and silly, this is 2015 we can use the right stick to look around, which kinda killed the exploration aspect of the reward being to investigate the environment to see the world when the camera panning spoon feeds it to us?

Metalrocks
18th Feb 2015, 15:18
at the beginning there are sure a lot of them but it was also necessary to introduce the game and its mechanic and what the player will/would be facing later on. also, this is on origin story so there has to be some explanation to what is happening to actually feel what lara is going through. she is not a TR yet.
also, the camera didnt show every single item you need. to reach 100%, you still have to find certain items that arent easy to find. like those dreamcatchers or these flags. like the one on the crane.

otherwise, there is always half life. practically no cutscenes in the first one and only minor once from HL2 on.

Tecstar70
18th Feb 2015, 15:34
Was thinking about this with the dev vids about the new TR game. Side quests are described as a reward type system, might be better if their used to further explore the characters roots, backstory, development and all that instead of just being used for rewards? This might allow a good blending of the overall story of the game, along with the origin story arc their still doing? The reward could be learning even more about the new character like taking parts from the comic and smacking them right into the game as side quests for further character development instead of just a damage bonus item, or reward based system?

Dont mind the cut scenes for the story, just find all the other cut scenes that just look around annoying and silly, this is 2015 we can use the right stick to look around, which kinda killed the exploration aspect of the reward being to investigate the environment to see the world when the camera panning spoon feeds it to us?

They did this in TR2013. The artefacts etc revealed further info about Yamatai which you could ignore if you wanted to. It's difficult to extrapolate too much from the few pictures and videos we are seeing at the moment so I don't think you can read too much into it.

Bridgetkfisher
18th Feb 2015, 15:51
They did this in TR2013. The artefacts etc revealed further info about Yamatai which you could ignore if you wanted to. It's difficult to extrapolate too much from the few pictures and videos we are seeing at the moment so I don't think you can read too much into it.

Agreed, not sure if the new TR goes overboard with the cut scenes around every corner, just noticed it really when replaying the game. Hoping that it isnt to overboard or if it is they stick to what counts to move the story along. Looking around at things like the plane or getting on a log shouldnt warrant a cutscene?

IvanaKC
18th Feb 2015, 16:03
Did we not discuss this particular issues before? I remember commenting how surprised I was with cutscenes because I literally couldn't say in the first second whether I'm still playing or not. And game takes control out of my hands just like that way too often.

I don't mind the number of cutscenes. Like it was already said, you have to introduce the story, but now that I think about it, the art of making a video game is trying to tell a story through gameplay, actually. They could definitely handle them better. I have to agree that it would be great if we were allowed to move our camera or something in some cutscenes.

Chaugmar
18th Feb 2015, 19:29
It ruins the suspense if everytime a big event happens you watch it through video than experience it in free play. You see the area and it's enemies before you get to discover it for yourself.

Blacktron
18th Feb 2015, 20:34
I said it before and I say it again: TR9 & 10 are modern games. They do things the way modern games do. And that's not gonna change (unless all modern games change).

AdeleDazeem
18th Feb 2015, 20:53
I rarely watch movies because games have become my "movie". Story over gameplay in my book. And while I agree datapads, artefacts, datalogs and etc are a great way to expand upon a game's story. It's the cutscenes that push me through.

I also realize people won't agree on 'story over gameplay'. Games like Rayman: Legends have awesome gameplay, but it will never be one of my favorite games due to it's lack of story.

Bridgetkfisher
18th Feb 2015, 21:17
It ruins the suspense if everytime a big event happens you watch it through video than experience it in free play. You see the area and it's enemies before you get to discover it for yourself.

This is what I meant, thanks for phrasing it so well, it is a big suspense and exploration killer when everything is shown in a panoramic camera shot of a new area as described by Chaugmar.

WinterSoldierLTE
19th Feb 2015, 01:00
I dig good looking cutscenes. And I dig a good story in a game. Some are better than books or actual movies for me as well. If both are created and nurtured equally and combined with great gameplay, I am very happy. But with that being said, not every game needs to be overwhelmed with story and cutscenes. Some games are best without (the 'Sonic The Hedgehog' series, for example), and others are just kind of need to have them for maximum impact (the 'Silent Hill' series, for example.). TR to me sort of needs a heavy emphasis on story and cutscenes. Both were handled so wonderfully in 'Legend' that to think of TR without a heavy focus on story, characters, and cutscenes is just odd. I just can't picture it. Every TR would have to be in the 'LC' series style for that to work for myself personally. And those are cool to, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking them. But as far as a traditional 3rd person TR game story and cutscenes just have to be there for me.

As far as in-game transition, yeah that was cool but it was also annoying because I wasn't expecting it when it happened. It's impressive, but if they're gonna go that route again I'd like to at least see a letterbox format kick in when it happens so I know it's happening.

Gitb97
19th Feb 2015, 20:56
I thought they gave up on the movie since nothings been said about it since it first cropped up?

Phasetastic
24th Feb 2015, 14:36
I like a good story with lots of twists and turns but don't want a game to play itself. They had to put a lot of story in the last game as it was an origins tale but maybe this one not have as much.

d1n0_xD
24th Feb 2015, 14:56
Damn, "tons of cutscenes" is a little bit of an overstatement. I don't think there were a lot of them, just that some of the beginning ones were a little longer than usual (for example, Roth being hurt and stuff), but nothing out of the ordinary, I played a good bit between every cutscene, in my experience. :)

zackdollars
4th Mar 2015, 15:41
I don't have a problem with cut scenes (as long as they are real time). I do have a problem when control is taken out of my hands (ie, when Lara was stuck on the ground and forced to fight wolves with the bow and arrow). Finally, cut scenes/combat should never have QTE's.

I understand the OP's desire to have no cut scenes, though. Dragon's Dogma did a great job at story telling without too many cut scenes.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 18:23
The game is like what? 25h long? There's only 2h 20min of the cutscenes so it's not that much. I agree with Tecstar and WinterSoldierLTE. The cutscenes makes a story which is one of the most important parts of the game. I know games which had almost no cutscenes but instead there was a lot of dialogue, usually between the hero and other people, so the game itself was pretty much based on talking with other people. I'd rather watch the cutscenes than chose what should I say to unlock a quest. I actually enjoy them. It's a nice break and if you don't want to watch them, you can usually skip them.

Lara_Fan_84
4th Mar 2015, 23:05
Lots of game series have long cutscenes to get you ready for what you have to do next or to make you emotional. For example, if they show a cutscene like Roth having an ax thrown at his back when you've become attached to his character you're going to most likely feel sadness, as if you just lost your best friend. Even just a simple cutscene like showing men coming out of the shanty town houses (or whatever you want to call them) and they're all after you you may feel excitement or get combat high.

Most of the Metal Gear Solid games give you longer cutscenes to play on your emotions and to make the game really epic. I can understand where you're coming from, because you want to just play that game not watch a 5-minute cutscene.

Bridgetkfisher
16th Mar 2015, 16:14
I don't have a problem with cut scenes (as long as they are real time). I do have a problem when control is taken out of my hands (ie, when Lara was stuck on the ground and forced to fight wolves with the bow and arrow). Finally, cut scenes/combat should never have QTE's.

I understand the OP's desire to have no cut scenes, though. Dragon's Dogma did a great job at story telling without too many cut scenes.

These cut scenes that happen during gameplay, say when entering a cave or a log, and suddenly CUT scene, showing us the cave or us on the log that takes our gameplay away are what is annoying. the traditional story based cut scenes at pivotal points worked fine for TR2013, but having cut scenes at every new area, or most of the tombs was out of control. If were in the middle of gameplay having a cut scene there breaks our immersion instead of adding to it because we lose control.

julietxjules
16th Mar 2015, 20:25
I have only begun playing this game recently - I think I was constantly putting it off for fear of what my instincts were telling me about it. There's no doubt that the environments are simply wonderful and gorgeous looking, and by being so, can only be considered as a vast overall improvement. I can clearly remember way back when Lara began to woo the gaming world with her first adventure, we had an introduction to the story with a FMV scene - which was a joy to watch - then the game began proper. We only ever really got cut scenes at the beginning and end of levels and much of the story was related by Lara herself so constant cut scene interruptions were not necessary. This trend continued throughout the Tomb Raider series, and personally speaking, I was thankful for it.

But with this new 'reboot' (new to me, I only just bought it) I am appalled at the amount of times control of the game has been denied me because of the need of yet another cut scene; I find it an irritating frustration to be honest! Yes, there are some that enhance the story and at times are necessary, but it feels to me like the game is doing this as a poor substitute for decent story telling. There is not much exposition given by Lara's dialogue other than to talk about relics or other stuff in between the quieter moments when the predictable combat scenes are done with.

In the past, Lara would casually explain things so the player felt engaged and was an active part of the unfolding story - rather than rely on a cut scene to do it. This game though is like two games playing in parallel to each other: one is the story - I use this term loosely - and the other is the Uncharted-like gun battles. And the numerous cut scenes are used as a glue to bond them all together because they don't fit together properly.

I know that there is a school of thought these days that like the option of using cinematic cut scenes because of all the potential it can offer to a game, but there needs to be a trade off to prevent the point where the line has been crossed causing an imbalance between good exposition, and unnecessary cinematic cut scene which ends up as an annoyance to a player such as myself.

I will also mention that I was there right from the very beginning of Tomb Raider, but now the game has been revamped to suit the needs of today's gamers. It all alienates me - if I'm honest - and that doesn't make me feel particularly good.

I would like a return of the older values when actual game-time events were the exposition rather than having the game sliced and diced into portions of ingredients that don't taste too good when put together. :)

ps. . .help me out here. What is QTE?

Tecstar70
16th Mar 2015, 22:27
ps. . .help me out here. What is QTE?
Quick Time Event

Rather than game play where you control what happens it is a scripted sequence where you interact at certain points pre-determined by the game, for example when you have to repeatedly hit Y to escape a wolf.

julietxjules
16th Mar 2015, 22:37
Quick Time Event

Rather than game play where you control what happens it is a scripted sequence where you interact at certain points pre-determined by the game, for example when you have to repeatedly hit Y to escape a wolf.

Thank you. I thought it might be, but as I am not that 'up' with abbreviations I thought it best to ask and make sure.

Tecstar70
17th Mar 2015, 09:21
Thank you. I thought it might be, but as I am not that 'up' with abbreviations I thought it best to ask and make sure.

No problem! :thumb:

Pittsburgh1
19th Aug 2015, 22:31
The way TR2013 was done is fine. The cinematic cut scenes are great and with the graphics at the state they are it is like watching a movie. Don't change it Enix. The game is a masterpiece. The only thing I can think of to change is the 'boss' idea. This idea has been around for the last 25 years or more in gaming. There has to be a better way to have a finale for a level or scene. A boss in a game today immediately reminds me that it is a game like super mario. And we are way beyond that now.

Come up with something new.

Valenka
19th Aug 2015, 22:41
No complaints from me. I don't mind cutscenes at all; there was a fair balance between cutscenes and gameplay in TR9 and I expect the same in TR10.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
20th Aug 2015, 00:01
I think it is a fine balance. I quite like having fast paced sections of gameplay that you have to apply controls in new ways like the den or the river section from TR2013. The bit I don't like is too many QTE's or the game 'playing itself'. That really then detracts from the experience so I would rather that we got to control Lara through normal controls even if there is chaos is going on around her.

Gitb97
20th Aug 2015, 06:19
I actually forgot all about the movie. I don't care for another TR movie especially since the director isn't one of my favourites (at all lol) so my expectations for this movie are low anyway. I'd rather them spend that budget on the games instead of a film

Driber
20th Aug 2015, 10:28
The only thing I can think of to change is the 'boss' idea. This idea has been around for the last 25 years or more in gaming. There has to be a better way to have a finale for a level or scene. A boss in a game today immediately reminds me that it is a game like super mario. And we are way beyond that now.

Come up with something new.

We are "way beyond boss battles"? Nonsense! There's nothing wrong with boss battles. In fact, it gives the game a thrilling end, and if done right, leaves the player satisfied and feeling like he accomplished something.

Boss battles aren't exclusive to Mario type of games. And boss battles have served the TR franchise well for nearly 20 years now. You don't change a winning formula :cool:


I actually forgot all about the movie. I don't care for another TR movie especially since the director isn't one of my favourites (at all lol) so my expectations for this movie are low anyway. I'd rather them spend that budget on the games instead of a film

But those budgets are entirely different. No money from the TR games budget is going into making the movies. Those are funded by big Hollywood film studios, not SE/CD.

WinterSoldierLTE
20th Aug 2015, 10:36
We are "way beyond boss battles"? Nonsense! There's nothing wrong with boss battles. In fact, it gives the game a thrilling end, and if done right, leaves the player satisfied and feeling like he accomplished something.

Boss battles aren't exclusive to Mario type of games. And boss battles have served the TR franchise well for nearly 20 years now. You don't change a winning formula :cool:



But those budgets are entirely different. No money from the TR games budget is going into making the movies. Those are funded by big Hollywood film studios, not SE/CD.

Agreed. I enjoy a good boss battle. Can you picture 'MGS1' without a boss battle? Man, that game would be a totally different animal without them.

chip5541
20th Aug 2015, 10:39
"Boss Battles" are fine. It is a way of tying up the story being told.

d1n0_xD
20th Aug 2015, 10:52
I love Boss Battles, especially if you need to be smart, I like them long and fair, and if there's multiple things you can do to the boss to take him down :D

Rai
20th Aug 2015, 21:40
I actually forgot all about the movie. I don't care for another TR movie especially since the director isn't one of my favourites (at all lol) so my expectations for this movie are low anyway. I'd rather them spend that budget on the games instead of a film

This thread isn't discussing the movie that's in the works, it's about how the thread starter felt there were too many cut scenes in TR and how they'd prefer less of a 'movie' feel in Rise.

IvanaKC
20th Aug 2015, 23:43
Agreed. I enjoy a good boss battle. Can you picture 'MGS1' without a boss battle? Man, that game would be a totally different animal without them.


Great comparison, man, it needed to be said. I can't imagine for example seeing Natla as the main antagonist in previous games and then not fighting her at all in the end. If there's something big and bad in Lara's way, I want to defeat it. :D


Back on topic with the cutscenes, they should do something about the way they're implementing them. I don't want that feeling of not knowing whether I'm still in charge of Lara or not. Someone here also already said that everything new is introduced with cutscenes. Especially with enemies, slow mo kills the skills. What's wrong with being jumped by the enemy? I'd like that part of gameplay back.

Rai
21st Aug 2015, 00:17
I do agree to a certain extent, Ivana. I have no problem with story cut scenes. Love 'em in fact. But yeah, I agree that not every new thing needs a cut scene. One such scene that comes to mind in TR was the introduction to rope arrows. Lara needed rope, so, oh there it is in front of us, cue scene of Lara finding it then slow motion, must immediately use. And yet some scenes worked, like the scene in the helicopter when she finds the lighter. That scene added a little to the story. Then there are instances where there's a certain overlap between player control and what's essentially a cut scene. Take the radio tower scene. It is basically an interactive cut scene, but not quite a QTE. I'm still undecided if I minded that. I prefer it to button promoted QTEs, yet there should really have been complete player control, I think. And I enjoyed the wolf fight when Lara is trapped in the bear trap *conflicted* :p

I certainly hope there is more of letting the player find needed items ourselves, rather then cinematic reveals.

IvanaKC
21st Aug 2015, 01:02
I do agree to a certain extent, Ivana. I have no problem with story cut scenes. Love 'em in fact. But yeah, I agree that not every new thing needs a cut scene. One such scene that comes to mind in TR was the introduction to rope arrows. Lara needed rope, so, oh there it is in front of us, cue scene of Lara finding it then slow motion, must immediately use. And yet some scenes worked, like the scene in the helicopter when she finds the lighter. That scene added a little to the story. Then there are instances where there's a certain overlap between player control and what's essentially a cut scene. Take the radio tower scene. It is basically an interactive cut scene, but not quite a QTE. I'm still undecided if I minded that. I prefer it to button promoted QTEs, yet there should really have been complete player control, I think. And I enjoyed the wolf fight when Lara is trapped in the bear trap *conflicted* :p

I certainly hope there is more of letting the player find needed items ourselves, rather then cinematic reveals.

Yes, all of the scenes you mentioned are the ones I remember made me feel disappointed. Rope arrow is perfect example, really. Finding a lighter needed a cutscene, that I agree, but the tower climbing? That was a part where I really didn't know whether Lara moves because of me or not. It was so wrong that the player couldn't move camera all around, decided which way to climb the tower or even jump down to see the epic scene of Lara screaming as she falls.
Also, did you notice that there are many parts where camera gets stuck and player has to do only one thing - hold the forward button and that's it? Walking at the edges of cliffs and inside the caves is done that way, IMO wrong.

I didn't indulge into discussion about Syria demo because it seemed like a big interactive cutscene from the start. Killed the excitement in me.

Relight-TRHQ
21st Aug 2015, 23:51
I don't have concrete examples offhand to backup my points, but I really feel that Tomb Raider did a great job of providing a continuous gameplay experience. I feel that other games, when they go to cutscenes, can sometimes really break the player out of feeling "I'm the one having this experience, I'm a part of this." Other games can really separate you from the player character, and make you feel like you're watching a movie.

And the reason Tomb Raider DOESN'T make me feel that way is BECAUSE of all those different ranges of camera, where on the whole, really the vast majority of the time we're in a normal gameplay position, but then we have those moments where the camera gets closer, anywhere from mid-range all the way to close-up, but we're still in control. To me, that really helps connect me to Lara as a real character, and not just a little person that is running around the screen. It puts me in touch with what she's feeling and what she's experiencing, so that I feel that I'm really experiencing this situation with her. I'd rather have that variety, have that control in those moments - even if it's more limited control - than have those moments go to cutscenes.

The Tomb Raider reboot (and now Rise) has such a significant amount of story and character that I'd classify it primarily as a story-driven, character-driven ("action/adventure") game, which is what appealed to me about it more than the previous Tomb Raider games - it's not just a platformer, or a puzzle game, or a combat game - and this is what modern gaming is now really excelling at compared to previous gaming generations - creating a combined, balanced experience. I love games and I've been a gamer all my life, but I love stories more - and so to tell a rich story in an interactive medium that I get to participate in is the most amazing thing for me. This makes those cutscene moments that do break away slightly necessary and important, and I really feel they're far less prevalent and much better integrated than so many other games. And those moments that aren't story cutscenes, but are short moments where the player doesn't have control and the camera is pointing out something to the player - I accept those as part of the cinematic experience and part of trying to grade the difficulty curve, where the game has to do a certain amount of acclimation of the player to the environment, likely more often earlier in the game or when you first enter an area.

Tomb Raider couldn't be further away from a "movie" game. I really feel that they have a perfect balance of all the elements they're playing with. There are so many games that run the gamut of really putting the player into a passive position whether it's a significant amount of the time or almost exclusively. I love the cinematic Tomb Raider experience and I don't think we're anywhere near being in danger of becoming a passive "movie" game.

Sorry for all the rambling and lack of specific examples or direct comparisons!

BridgetFisher
27th Aug 2015, 02:32
This thread isn't discussing the movie that's in the works, it's about how the thread starter felt there were too many cut scenes in TR and how they'd prefer less of a 'movie' feel in Rise.

Would love to be able to play through many of the cut scenes. Many of the Cut Scenes in TR2013 made us do things twice which broke the pace of the gameplay because when these events happened the player was taken out of the game. For example when approaching the log at the start or the plane we need to view these events twice. Once to watch the cut scene of approaching the log, then we cross the log.

TR2013 was less of an exploration game with more action focused elements since the last TR seemed to focus more on a COD approach. Not a bad thing at all, but when entering almost every area or a tomb instead of exploring the tomb to experience it first, were shown wide sweeping cameras of the tomb or the whole area. Its kind of like the game continually spoilered in that way. Maybe a way to encourage the adventurey feel would be to let us explore those areas without the cinematics? Then its kind of a balance so players can experience those areas by playing through them which is good for that awesome explorer type of feeling we all love from the lara croft games?

Gitb97
27th Aug 2015, 19:02
This thread isn't discussing the movie that's in the works, it's about how the thread starter felt there were too many cut scenes in TR and how they'd prefer less of a 'movie' feel in Rise.
Oh, sorry :p I confused this thread and the other movie thread then by the looks of it.
In that case, I like a movie feel.



But those budgets are entirely different. No money from the TR games budget is going into making the movies. Those are funded by big Hollywood film studios, not SE/CD.
True, who is even writing the hollywood movie?

BridgetFisher
28th Aug 2015, 06:32
True, who is even writing the hollywood movie?

Evan Daugherty is the "current" writer for the upcoming TR movie. That can change and might, but right now that is the current individual. Not unusual for other writers to come in and hone a script or alter it after its written thats just the way it goes in the big biz of hollywood. Evan is pretty awesome though! Took alot of movies that should have never made it and made them work! Hes known for putting in alot of effort into projects, being able to work under pressure, and still pull it off in the end so fingers crossed we all get something were really gonna like! xDDD

Gitb97
28th Aug 2015, 07:06
^ I'm guessing you like him a lot? :p
Thanks for telling me :)