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View Full Version : DECEIVER Deceiver extremely overpowered



jeddawey
17th Feb 2015, 15:47
I got to the point of frustration. there is 0% escaping from the deceiver. comes in stealth and focus me while no 1 is paying attention while using his sword + 1 or 2 autoattacks and am dead...

tell me. how the hell am i suppose to survive?. I handle all the other vamps just fine. but the deceiver with his damage and the decoys\invisibility is just too much.

am yet to face a deceiver who did`t own our team (human).
hunters gotta have the chance 1 vs 1.

TheRex22
17th Feb 2015, 16:09
I hope you don't listen to music while playing because countering deceiver is mostly listening to the sounds he makes and reacting to them.
The backstab actually makes a really distinctive sword-like noise: when you hear that turn yourself to the sound, this way you'll only get a part of the damage (275) instead of the full one (550).
When he's using the invisibility of the Disguise he's not completely invisible as you can see his steps when he walks around, also you can clearly hear some sounds when any vampire is near you. If he uses Shroud he's actually pretty easy to spot.
Decoys are actually more of a shield of meat, they have a really bad AI and it's easy to distinguish them from the real player. Explosives and AoE are the best solution if you see him duplicating.
If your allies are not paying attention to you, then there's not much you can do other than staying in clear line of sight with them and pray.
When he's using his normal melee (and this works for every vampire) try to circle strafe around him, sometimes this will make them miss some hits.

RainaAudron
17th Feb 2015, 16:33
That to me sounds more like the failure on you and your team´s side, rather than Deceiver being actually OP. Even an invisible Deceiver can still be heard and his footsteps seen. Good human players are aware of these things.

Khalith
17th Feb 2015, 16:37
I agree that well played Deceivers can be incredibly annoying. They can get in, do some damage and get out quickly or they can get in there and mop up injured humans without you seeing them coming. But their damage output is their strength, have shroud and illusions but no real solid defenses, an alchemist or an explosive shot can eliminate the illusions almost instantly, if they hit shroud instead of illusions you can hex shot or bola them to pull them out of it and light them up.

The hardest deceivers to kill are the ones that wait until the humans are injured or fighting the other vamps, jump in, do some damage and immediately run away before you can counter. I fought one yesterday that went 17-0 (though his team still lost the second round and the match) by just doing pure hit and run and clean up after his team had already engaged followed by him escaping immediately after, he'd get 1-2 to kills then run rather than risk death. I know playing against ones like that can make them appear overpowered but they really aren't, Deceiver is more or less fine as is, they do lots of damage but are pretty easy to lock down and kill if the humans play correctly.

zzott93
17th Feb 2015, 16:54
That to me sounds more like the failure on you and your team´s side, rather than Deceiver being actually OP. Even an invisible Deceiver can still be heard and his footsteps seen. Good human players are aware of these things.

Raina nailed it here. Sure, their're strong but they're not overpowered. For example, they have no means of supporting their team (stuns, smokes, AoEs etc,) so they're only damage dealers and need to be supported.

A good counter to them is playing one alchemist with a fire wall. It's also good against tyrants. Another good thing you'll need to do is spread out a lot as humans. That'll give you room to help whoever's being attacked by them.

Denaros
17th Feb 2015, 16:58
I don't understand why he has more health and damage with basic attack than the reaver.

As i've already said in another topic the damages are 180 basic and 360 with charged attack for the reaver and 205 and 410 for the deceiver Oo (well even the summoner do more damage than the reaver and i don't even count the ghouls in it).

He can already be invisible, backstab and do more damage and have more health (ok 50 but still) than the perfect vampire fighter ?

Being frail is really cool lol.

--Ram--
17th Feb 2015, 17:07
I don't understand why he has more health and damage with basic attack than the reaver.

As i've already said in another topic the damages are 180 basic and 360 with charged attack for the reaver and 205 and 410 for the deceiver Oo (well even the summoner do more damage than the reaver and i don't even count the ghouls in it).

He can already be invisible, backstab and do more damage and have more health (ok 50 but still) than the perfect vampire fighter ?

Being frail is really cool lol.

You are failing to consider attack rate entirely. Reavers attack significantly faster than all the other vamps and hence they have the highest dps and mobility in combat.

You are probably right that the deceiver is a better class for face rolling new players, but that isn't because he is OP, it's because people fail to deal with him correctly. Your team not paying attention is unfortunately what defines low skill games. This is why many people end up here complaining about vampires being OP when in fact this is a long way from the truth. If you are personally paying attention you can turn when you hear the backstab windup noise and not take the extra damage. If you then bola/hex the deceiver you have a very good chance of winning the fight 1v1 if you can land your shots. This is the part when the deceivers fragility shows. After he gets bola'd he really doesn't have many options left, and usually dies miserably. In the same scenario a reaver may just shadowstep out of combat momentarily and come back to finish you off.

jeddawey
17th Feb 2015, 17:56
Thank you all for the input and the ideas.

what happen is as follows:
either the vamp jumps us or without them jumping us. the deceiver comes in focus 1 person. that 1 person is dead. he is the only class that goes 1 vs 1 anyone and kills them even when I unload everything at him. and yes I actually try to avoid his autoattacks.

problem is. to kill a deceiver it requires you to have a good team that cover you or atleast clean up after he kills you.
does`t this sound like an overpowered class?. be serious now. no 1 can do the damage the deceiver does nor in that same period do the same damage. and the clones are actually used as shield .

this keeps happening over and over again to the point where I am pissed off. it`s not about skilled deceivers. it`s about almost all of the deceivers jumping in and doing the same thing and atleast killing 1 or 2 before they die or escape.

even when I hex shot the deceiver he still pummels me in and kills me before i kill him (I play alchemist and prophet).

Khalith
17th Feb 2015, 18:01
problem is. to kill a deceiver it requires you to have a good team that cover you or atleast clean up after he kills you. does`t this sound like an overpowered class?. be serious now. no 1 can do the damage the deceiver does nor in that same period do the same damage. and the clones are actually used as shield .

The same can be said about any of the classes if played well. Every tried killing a really well played Prophet or Reaver? It's a painful experience and requires support and CC's to do efficiently. But if you want to be able to kill a Deceiver 1v1, get good at alchemist. Play right and you shouldn't have a problem if you're paying attention.

jeddawey
17th Feb 2015, 18:05
actually at the human side the hardest i`v encountered is the scout. the rest like prophet for example is good. but manageable.
i feel like if you wanna get high score and bash people faces in. pick deceiver. this should`t be the case. he should be at the same level as the other vamps. and currently he is in a whole other level. can we agree on this ?.

Khalith
17th Feb 2015, 18:11
actually at the human side the hardest i`v encountered is the scout. the rest like prophet for example is good. but manageable.
i feel like if you wanna get high score and bash people faces in. pick deceiver. this should`t be the case. he should be at the same level as the other vamps. and currently he is in a whole other level. can we agree on this ?.

Deceiver is the second strongest vamp, it can't hold a candle to Reaver.

zzott93
17th Feb 2015, 18:12
actually at the human side the hardest i`v encountered is the scout.
In tournament play decievers are used as a counter for scouts. I dunno what kind of argument that makes.



i feel like if you wanna get high score and bash people faces in. pick deceiver.
[]...and currently he is in a whole other level. can we agree on this ?.
Did you read any of what we said previously in this thread?

PencileyePirate
17th Feb 2015, 18:15
and currently he is in a whole other level. can we agree on this ?.

No, we can't. Deceiver isn't any stronger than the other vamps ... just different.

jeddawey
17th Feb 2015, 18:27
In tournament play decievers are used as a counter for scouts. I dunno what kind of argument that makes.


Did you read any of what we said previously in this thread?
I was speaking in general. as I personally did`t unlock the deceiver yet. I play tyrant\summoner and sometimes reaver. for me the scout is the hardest. perhaps now there is no misunderstanding.

and yes I`v read each and every comment.

in almost all the games i`v played so far (human) am yet to be with a decent team. I am mostly the only one picking off the deceiver when he jumps on of us while the others aren`t looking. yet when it happens to me as always am dead since people don`t care to look behind. that`s why am frustrated. all the rest of the vamps I can handle them and get multiple kills as alchemist\prophet.
except when it comes to a deceiver jumping\focusing me I simply stand no chance. most of the time he is at a very low hp when am dead.

Sanguise23
17th Feb 2015, 18:37
i handle deceivers this way: playing alchy i keep my ears and eyes open, usually i hear the backstab noise and roll backwards (this puts me behind the deceiver) they miss their BS and i firewall then shoot, shoot, shoot, light bomb, dead deceiver, works so much its laughable
P.S. i use fullbore and tinkerer

--Ram--
17th Feb 2015, 18:45
in almost all the games i`v played so far (human) am yet to be with a decent team. I am mostly the only one picking off the deceiver when he jumps on of us while the others aren`t looking. yet when it happens to me as always am dead since people don`t care to look behind. that`s why am frustrated. all the rest of the vamps I can handle them and get multiple kills as alchemist\prophet.
except when it comes to a deceiver jumping\focusing me I simply stand no chance. most of the time he is at a very low hp when am dead.

I recommend you unlock and play as deceiver vs a good human team and see what happens.

Razaiim
17th Feb 2015, 18:59
My 2 cents about the deceiver:

I'd rank him as third strongest vampire overall, and 2nd depending on human composition. He has no stuns, Area denial, or ranged AoE abilities, or rapid gap closers. and his escape mechanics do not guarantee survival in the same way as Tyrants or Reavers. He is all damage and his confusion abilities are dependent on the skill of the human team. Infect damage can be mitigated for obvious reasons.

Disguise can be followed, as certain terrain elements (sand, dirt) stir-up when he passes through them, and upon using disguise he is limited to human travel, even while invisible. His growls, footsteps and pain clips can still be heard alerting you to his presence.

Shroud is powerful due to the limited visibility, but with experience this becomes much less of an obstacle.

Illusions is initially confusing, however the cloud upon casting does not fully obscure the deceiver, and it clings to him for the shortest of moments after casting, allowing you to keep track so long as you keep him in line of sight, and don't take your focus off of him. I've have been hack-used multiple times for knowing this distinction and being able to fire on the actual deceiver.

As seen in this post ( http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=12764&p=110445#post110445 ) he does actually have the highest vampire DPS short of any undocumented changes to attack speeds. However, he has glaring hit detection issues with his melee, backstab and infect skills, the worst of any vampire pre-summoner release, and after summoner patch.

I think the deceiver is fairly well balanced for other vampires, all things considered. My suggested changes are to fix the hit detection on his abilities and attacks before tweaking any damage numbers (I do not like using faulty hit detection as a balancing point, but once this is fixed he will see a significant boost in strength), and I would like more damage from infect shifted from the initial hit to the AoE, over a longer period, to further differentiate it from backstab, and make it less of a direct upgrade.

Brackstone17
17th Feb 2015, 20:31
I think Deceiver is the most inconsistent of the vampires classes. Sometimes he can absolutely wreck teams, but this is usually at lower skill levels. At higher skill levels, it's much easier to see him coming, even when invisible, and once he does attack, he's arguably the easiest to focus down, due to his lack of escape abilities. The aim assist on prophet's life leech makes it incredibly easy to take chunks out of an invisible deceiver as long as you have a rough idea of where he is, and you can even bola them fairly consistently if you track the footprints.

As Razaiim noted, the big issue with deceiver is that his attacks have and always have had absolutely terrible hit detection. I really don't understand how these issues have lasted this long, but here they are 8 or 9 months later. Because of this, the difference between a deceiver dominating a game and doing horribly can often depend on how helpful the hit detection is that match.

jeddawey
18th Feb 2015, 09:20
i handle deceivers this way: playing alchy i keep my ears and eyes open, usually i hear the backstab noise and roll backwards (this puts me behind the deceiver) they miss their BS and i firewall then shoot, shoot, shoot, light bomb, dead deceiver, works so much its laughable
P.S. i use fullbore and tinkerer
I play the same way except the weapon (use aoe one) will buy fullbore for maximum damage as you suggested. thanks.