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View Full Version : The Prophet needs nerfed



HoopleDoople
12th Feb 2015, 22:49
I hate to say it since the Prophet has long been one of my favorite classes, but she is without question the best Human class currently and is in need of a nerf. The Prophet's usage rate in high skill matches reflects this and has made gameplay increasingly stale. Consider the following:


No counter-class
Weapons are effective at both close and long range
Best CC in the game by a wide margin
Able to heal via abilities
Staying mobile has little impact on effectiveness
Can track enemies via bleed
Has two non-conflicting abilities that swing the battle by 400 hp each when used


The only real downside to the Prophet is the inability to bring both an AoE and CC ability.

I believe a good place to start would be by reducing Prophet effectiveness at long range. This could be accomplished by either increasing the default spread on her weapons or increasing the damage fall-off they suffer. In either case, Piercing Pistols in particular need their bleed tweaked. I personally underestimated how much of a problem the lack of damage fall-off would cause.

Other options include reducing the damage threshold for breaking out of Hex, reducing the % of life leeched, or reducing the damage dealt by Life Leech. In the long term I would like to see the next Vampire added be particularly effective against the Prophet.

Please do not hesitate to share your own suggestions on how to better balance the Prophet or let me know why you think she's fine as is.

Razaiim
13th Feb 2015, 00:26
I disagree with the prophet needing a nerf:

Deceiver's fair well against them due to a lack of strong AoE, especially now that pierce no longer travels through illusions, and don't have the clip size to fire around shroud. Summoners as well

Their weapons do have punishing fall-off, but they've always been a scout/hunter hybrid when it came to weapons

I'll agree Hex is mighty compared to what other classes have for alternatives, but it's not that mighty

Their self healing isn't that strong (+1 vampire attack on life leech, drain curse is only 50% life steel and does piddly damage unless you stay in it).

Only the scout suffers from being too mobile, and even then not by much

Vampires only have a few routes and in many cases you don't need bleed to track them

You'll have to clarify the swing by 400 hp thing to me.

Phobophobian
13th Feb 2015, 01:27
Added; The Summoner's pets made things harder for Prophets already. Clip size and reloading times are factors that Prophet players always need to watch and manage - It happens so often now that ammo is consumed on the pets only to get killed by vampires while reloading or running to replenish ammo.

DesolatedMaggot
13th Feb 2015, 01:32
No counter-class
Weapons are effective at both close and long range
Best CC in the game by a wide margin
Able to heal via abilities
Staying mobile has little impact on effectiveness
Can track enemies via bleed
Has two non-conflicting abilities that swing the battle by 400 hp each when used



Only true counter in my mind is Sent vs Alch. All the other "counters" can be played around.
That's kind of her shtick.
Bola > Hex. Iunno what you thinkin' here.
Unless you're standing in Draining Curse it's only worth at most 2 additional attacks. Considering they deal less damage or have less radius than their counterparts, I think its fine.
Why should it?
Only for about 1-2 seconds. And a vampire can use this to his advantage as well, feint one direction and go another.
What?


I fail to see how changing her Piercing Pistols suddenly makes her abilities overpowered. IF anything needs to be nerfed it'd be the Piercing Pistols, and I don't even agree with that. You don't actually get 50 bleed damage every hit, the more you fire on the target the less damage your bleed does per shot.

Ghosthree3
13th Feb 2015, 01:37
I fail to see how changing her Piercing Pistols suddenly makes her abilities overpowered. IF anything needs to be nerfed it'd be the Piercing Pistols, and I don't even agree with that. You don't actually get 50 bleed damage every hit, the more you fire on the target the less damage your bleed does per shot.

Heavy are still better than piercing anyway so the bleed argument is invalid.

DesolatedMaggot
13th Feb 2015, 01:43
Heavy are still better than piercing anyway so the bleed argument is invalid.

Agreed sir.

HoopleDoople
13th Feb 2015, 01:54
Deceiver's fair well against them due to a lack of strong AoE, especially now that pierce no longer travels through illusions, and don't have the clip size to fire around shroud. Summoners as well

Deceivers can do just fine against Prophets, but it's not really a counter in my opinion, as I find it simply comes down to who performs better. The issue for Deceiver is Hex Shot - it is absolutely devastating to the Deceiver when it lands and can prematurely end cloak/disguise/shroud. I don't see Shroud as significantly more difficult for the Prophet - in fact I like the balance he brings. You've got a moderate number of shots before reloading and enough time in between that you can take time aiming.

In regards to Summoners I find the Prophet decidedly above average. His Piercing Pistols are great for poking Summoners that peek out, he can stay mobile to avoid Hellstrike/Abyssal Bolt, and he can heal on the fly to a degree rather than becoming a sitting duck at a health station. The only weakness is summons, and if there are multiple summoners the Prophet can turn this into a strength with Draining Curse and heal off of them.


Their weapons do have punishing fall-off, but they've always been a scout/hunter hybrid when it came to weapons

It's fine to be a hybrid, but the long range damage potential has been significantly increased with the Piercing Pistols. A guaranteed 50 bleed damage tacked on your last hit (at long range, usually your only hit) hurts and delays enemy regen.


You'll have to clarify the swing by 400 hp thing to me.

When you land Leech Life you gain 200 hp (assuming you're down at least that much) and the enemy loses 200 hp, which swings the battle 400 hp in your favor. Landing Hex Shot deals 100 damage and essentially forces the enemy to take another 300 before the Hex breaks, which is another 400 damage swing (plus usually a little extra free damage after it ends).

The other Humans don't really have abilities that can compare to this. The Hunter's Explosive Arrow matches up well though obviously its max single target damage is lower. The Hunter's grenades can surpass the damage but are far harder to land and slower to activate. The Alchemist's damaging abilities can easily top 400 damage, but only if they hit multiple Vamps and/or the Vamps foolishly remain in the AoE. The Scout's AoE abilities are similar in nature except for traps, which are very hit or miss.

TheDreamcrusher
13th Feb 2015, 02:10
Prophet pistols are strong. The one thing I really don't like at this point in time pertains to both Prophets and Scouts and that's the large amount of damage they can do at extreme range. Two scouts that manage to hit the same vampire when he's peeking is is nearly an instant kill. There's not really a scouting option for vampires to see what humans have prepared without peeking *except* for Sentinel Echolocation which when I initially saw it thought the location of the humans was revealed for the whole vampire team but since trying it saw that it was only a vision mode for the Sentinel alone.

The three factors are the damage the weapons do, the layout of the maps, and the scouting/peeking options for vampires. Disguise is the best scouting option if a team is using voice chat and Shadow Smoke is second best but that means knowing ahead of time where the humans are at. Echolocation is a very weak option for the other abilities you give up currently in that slot.

Ghosthree3
13th Feb 2015, 02:25
Prophet pistols are strong. The one thing I really don't like at this point in time pertains to both Prophets and Scouts and that's the large amount of damage they can do at extreme range.

If the vampires are playing properly they won't take much if any poke damage at range. They will only be visible once close.

TheDreamcrusher
13th Feb 2015, 02:36
If the vampires are playing properly they won't take much if any poke damage at range. They will only be visible once close.

Right, because humans never rove around.

HoopleDoople
13th Feb 2015, 03:00
If the vampires are playing properly they won't take much if any poke damage at range. They will only be visible once close.

In theory, yes. But some maps need reworks to certain areas like the Fane got, as the visibility is insanely high from almost all direction.

-Konf-
13th Feb 2015, 05:53
I have to disagree with most of the points listed.

No counter-class - Never felt like this game has "hard" counters. Some certain classes do well against others, true, but aren't designed for that one purpose.

Weapons are effective at both close and long range - All weapons are extremely potent at close range. At long range Prophets seem to fit in between Hunters and Scouts. Maybe a slight increase to damage fall-off is required, but to me it certainly doesn't feel like the number changes should be dramatic. That's one thing I kind of agree with you on.

Best CC in the game by a wide margin - Sorry, but this is far from accurate. At the moment Hex is the most unreliable CC in this game by a wide margin. Once it's fixed, then we'll be able to compare it to others and even then I don't see it being strictly better than Bola.

Able to heal via abilities - yes, which is a class feature that is balanced by not having any team utility (depending on which abilities you run it still stays true). So the real question here is whether healing is too potent or over powered? I'm not convinced it is.

Staying mobile has little impact on effectiveness - any class can stay perfectly mobile with exception of Scouts with fully drawn bow; and they can be just as mobile whenever they decide to drop the draw and run around.

Can track enemies via bleed - Not by default! It requires a specific weapon that is not as broken as people claim it to be (heavies are still better in my opinion) and besides I don't find this tracking particularly effective of useful. I'd rather burst my target down.

Has two non-conflicting abilities that swing the battle by 400 hp each when used - Prophet is a great duellist, yes. Hex / Life Leech in 1 on 1 situations is a great loadout, but it leaves you with just a CC for your team when it comes to the team fights, which are more important. Duel capabilities VS team utility trade off - seems fair to me.

I play a lot of Prophet too. While I understand some points that you're making, in my experience (don't know about others) things look different between paper and reality. Yes, I can take some 1 on 1 engagements and have fun but I don't find myself completely invincible or extremely strong or that I bring too much to the table when it comes to team fights.

--Ram--
13th Feb 2015, 06:52
I agree that prophets are very strong currently, if I feel the need to carry a game I tend to go for prophet. I basically always hex/life leech but I'm not sure I agree that these abilities are overpowered. I think prophets are indeed at the top of the food chain and as such I can't really say they don't need a nerf, they may well, but I disagree with some of the outlined reasons for their strength.

To me I think the tipping point may be the ease with which a prophet can dish out huge applied dps despite the fact that on paper their weapons may not appear to be god tier. My heavy pistol accuracy is significantly higher than I have for hunter weapons and to me that is part of the difference (not sure if this would apply to everyone however). I also think that the heavy pistol is straight up better in terms of clip size and ease of reloading than a hunter crossbow. As for the heavy pistol/piercing pistol debate I still prefer heavies generally. The best choice may depend on who you are playing with/against and how the game is panning out, but I find for the typical pub match heavy is definitely superior for raw close-medium range killing power, which tends to be what you need most.

In a close quarters dps race life leech really doesn't offer any boost in dps as compared with just shooting a guy, so to say it is a 400hp swing while technically being true (at the instant you use it) is slightly misleading. In reality only gives you the advantage of being 200hp tougher and extending your effective clip size by 200 damage. You will kill your target just as quickly without it. Using it to chip at long range for 200 or to sustain yourself without heal stations is effective and to me gives the class its flavour, but I don't really think it's too strong.

You are right in saying prophets have no major weakness. But I'm not sure I would say they hard counter anything either, except perhaps foolhardy jump tyrants. If anything needs a nerf it is probably still their weapon, I don't really think their skills are over done.

mauvo58
13th Feb 2015, 12:46
The current dominance of Prophets seems to have only come about with the release of the summoner. For me the reason to choose Prophet is that Hunters feel less effective now.

(Prophets got new piercing pistols but these are in-line with heavy pistols.)

Aggggh
13th Feb 2015, 13:22
The current dominance of Prophets seems to have only come about with the release of the summoner. For me the reason to choose Prophet is that Hunters feel less effective now.

(Prophets got new piercing pistols but these are in-line with heavy pistols.)

Eh, I'd say it's because of the hunter nerfs. The prophet is the next easiest hitscan class so it's only natural that people would move over to her after hunter got nerfed.

Ghosthree3
13th Feb 2015, 13:25
I feel the hunter lost effectiveness because of summoned minions.

mauvo58
13th Feb 2015, 13:49
Aggggh: As far as I can see, the most recent Hunter nerf was on 8th December, and Prophet was nerfed at the same time. The current Prophet dominance feels much more recent to me.

Khalith
13th Feb 2015, 15:00
I will say I do feel the prophet is overpowered as well, it's still the best human class in a straight 1v1 if you can aim well (I don't aim very well personally, I'm average to below average outside of the occasional lucky string of shots) . I won't say prophet needs a counter class, rather I think it has no unfavorable matchups against other vampires and is way too effective against all the vampire classes. To me Prophet is equivalent to the reaver in the sense that it's too versatile for the damage it deals with too few weaknesses. For starters I think the prophet could stand to be reduced to 1k hp and go from there, I don't think there are weapons are too bad, but I think the bleeding from the piercing should be subject to fall off as well.

Aggggh
13th Feb 2015, 15:51
Aggggh: As far as I can see, the most recent Hunter nerf was on 8th December, and Prophet was nerfed at the same time. The current Prophet dominance feels much more recent to me.
Hunter got nerfed harder. His strength was his amazing sustained damage on top of his CC and burst damage. Prophet got some minor nerfs to damage but her strengths is her burst damage which wasn't effected as much by her nerfs. Prophet has been better for a while now, it just took a bit for people to start taking advantage of that.


I feel the hunter lost effectiveness because of summoned minions.

Which are still an issue for prophet because of her low clip size. Hunter lost effectiveness because he took a heavy nerf to his weapons and one of his easiest/most effective skills (whip).