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View Full Version : Explosive shot auto spam is the new whip



Blackdeathteal
11th Feb 2015, 06:22
Having had a long break from Nosgoth trying not to burn out and waiting for the Summoner this seems is the new fashion trend has anything been noted about this yet its getting really cheese having to face every game .

Ygdrasel
11th Feb 2015, 07:44
..That explosive shot is a good ability and therefore used often? I'm sure it's been noted...Hence it being used often.

Firehex
11th Feb 2015, 13:14
I used it when i started to play and still use only this. Why ? Because it is instant and goes through reaver evasion,summoner shield. You can kill deciever in stealth mode or just anybody around the corner. It is now new meta, it was always that way.

TendrilSavant
11th Feb 2015, 22:28
Explosive Shot has always been good, and definitely too good in it's initial iteration. It's not so much that it's the new Whip, it's more like Whip was too strong and was nerfed to a good place (and so was grenade); which only made Explosive Shot again the clearly better option.

I said this almost a year ago (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=12900&p=99114#post99114), when it was changed from firing all three arrows at once:

Hunter explosive shot might need a small animation as a tell and to lower its burst potential. Its still very good, in fact its gained long distance applications with the last change.

I still think it needs an warm up animation. Also, a max distance should also be added (similar to Summoner's Abyssal Bolt). It's fairly easy to lob Explosive Shots nearly across the map at a fallen ally in the hopes of getting a clean up kill on a weak vampire.

Blackdeathteal
11th Feb 2015, 23:15
Yeah I was aware of how good it was back then too, more the fact you have 3 - 4 scout teams running much like you had hunters doing it and that base level of cheese play can tend to get annoying
Scouts on a whole are fine its just that explosive auto shot could use a small nurf to combat it

DesolatedMaggot
12th Feb 2015, 03:58
Also, a max distance should also be added (similar to Summoner's Abyssal Bolt). It's fairly easy to lob Explosive Shots nearly across the map at a fallen ally in the hopes of getting a clean up kill on a weak vampire.
I'd hate to see this change. I like being able to use it from across the map and getting a kill every now and then. I really don't see it as an overpowering feature, its uncommon to get a hit, and very rare to get a kill this way.

A "casting" animation would be a welcomed change however, as long as its something relatively quick.

PencileyePirate
12th Feb 2015, 07:01
I don't agree with a change to explosive shot at all, especially an increased activation time. Explosive shot has been just fine ever since it was changed to stagger the shots [way back in CB] instead of firing simultaneously.

In all honesty Whip needs a slightly quicker activation or recovery since it was over-nerfed (see anyone using it?) If explosive shot is nerfed again it'll probably be sub-par and underused like Whip is now.

zzott93
12th Feb 2015, 10:49
What's your point? Explosive shot has always been popular and it's a good but fair ability. If you don't like it get some smokes up and they wont be half as bad.

_Kine_
12th Feb 2015, 13:44
Applying timed fuse; as opposed to detonation upon impact, should tone it down sufficiently.

Make Explosive Shot effective versus static targets and clusters but not an I Win 1v1 panic button.

Reduce recoil to compensate.

TendrilSavant
12th Feb 2015, 16:58
If explosive shot is nerfed again it'll probably be sub-par and underused like Whip is now.
Why would my suggested changes make Explosive Shot sub par?



It doesn't change it's effectiveness against Evasion.
It slightly lower it's strength when supporting an ally from a distance, but seeing as concentrated fire is an issue that would be better for balance.
It does lower it's effective distance, but you still have your Repeater.
It does lower it's effectiveness as a pseudo-melee ability (which should make Whip a better option in that situation).
It would still have better distance than Whip and a faster and better trajectory than Grenades.

TheDreamcrusher
12th Feb 2015, 19:09
I don't agree with a change to explosive shot at all, especially an increased activation time. Explosive shot has been just fine ever since it was changed to stagger the shots [way back in CB] instead of firing simultaneously.

In all honesty Whip needs a slightly quicker activation or recovery since it was over-nerfed (see anyone using it?) If explosive shot is nerfed again it'll probably be sub-par and underused like Whip is now.

Completely agree. I don't see any need for changes to Explosive Shot. I feel the other 3 options are vastly underwhelming. Blinding Shot does less damage and hardly has an effective blind (either it's too short or doesn't take effect at all for me most of the time), Grenade is unwieldly with that long fuse time, and Sticky Grenade is the second best option after Explosive Shot simply because it can still beat Evasion preemptively but is still not that good because Explosive Shot's area is much better and can be spread apart on purpose with the sequential shots. The advantage Sticky Grenade has is that you can hit Sentinels with it. It's harder to do that with Explosive Shot.

I've been playing around with Bola, Whip, and Poison Bola and at this point I'm fairly certain I'd only use Bola as my real go to ability from that slot. Whip doesn't gain you much if you're using it for self-defense as it provides only a momentary stagger, does 200 damage which is roughly what you could do if you kept firing a repeater, and comes out very slowly but it can help an ally. Poison Bola doesn't do enough damage to justify the increased cool down time, again, for me. I'd prefer to be able to Bola again 8 seconds sooner.

Ygdrasel
12th Feb 2015, 19:12
Applying timed fuse; as opposed to detonation upon impact, should tone it down sufficiently.

Make Explosive Shot effective versus static targets and clusters but not an I Win 1v1 panic button.

Reduce recoil to compensate.

Leave Explosive Shot alone. Improve the alternatives.

Buffing underwhelming things to par is always a far better option than nerfing the good stuff to match the underwhelming stuff.

TendrilSavant
12th Feb 2015, 23:04
I feel the other 3 options are vastly underwhelming.

Buffing underwhelming things to par is always a far better option than nerfing the good stuff to match the underwhelming stuff.
I can't disagree more. If I remember correctly Explosive Shot was buffed damage wise at one point so that it would be "comparable" to Grenade. It was too strong and was reset to its initial damage and later Grenade was nerfed.

As I mentioned above, the one aspect where Explosive Shot is too good is being able to clean up kills. The only way to avoid this is to know where humans are spawning and try to move a body out of their line of sight to hopefully avoid the incoming Explosive Shot volley. Most non-hitscan abilities humans have have a short range that they can be thrown to, and Bola and Hex have such a slow travel time that they can be avoided at a distance.

You can make an argument that this is "skill shooting" the ability out of its normal use but not a huge advantage, but with no downside there's no reason not to spam it as soon as you spawn in the hopes of getting a free kill.

TheDreamcrusher
13th Feb 2015, 02:31
I can't disagree more. If I remember correctly Explosive Shot was buffed damage wise at one point so that it would be "comparable" to Grenade. It was too strong and was reset to its initial damage and later Grenade was nerfed.

As I mentioned above, the one aspect where Explosive Shot is too good is being able to clean up kills. The only way to avoid this is to know where humans are spawning and try to move a body out of their line of sight to hopefully avoid the incoming Explosive Shot volley. Most non-hitscan abilities humans have have a short range that they can be thrown to, and Bola and Hex have such a slow travel time that they can be avoided at a distance.

You can make an argument that this is "skill shooting" the ability out of its normal use but not a huge advantage, but with no downside there's no reason not to spam it as soon as you spawn in the hopes of getting a free kill.

Nailing a vampire with an arcing Explosive Shot, over obstacles out of line of sight is, in fact, skill shooting. That takes practice and knowing the map. The shots also don't follow the same arc and have a slight spread to them that gets greater the farther they travel which means less concentrated damage. Also, moving a body out of line of sight for execution is the smart thing to do regardless for a protracted fight. You know humans will be running back to support team mates. You say Explosive Shot is a pseudo-melee ability? Sure, but so is Light Bomb and Light Bomb doesn't inflict friendly fire to yourself.

It still stands that the other abilities aren't nearly as good. Grenade might have that big bang damage number of 500, but it's got to be where a vampire or vampires are going to be and with the long fuse it's not really a close range ability. It has more utility at longer range tosses because the fuse has time to count down. Sticky Grenade is effectively a single target ability and you need to be close to medium range to have it stick often. Whip isn't even as good as what it's supposed to do which is to pull vampires off walls. It's easier to Bola them and watch them fall helpless since Bola will reach greater heights at better distances.

TendrilSavant
13th Feb 2015, 07:02
Nailing a vampire with an arcing Explosive Shot, over obstacles out of line of sight is, in fact, skill shooting.
I did say that an argument could be made didn't I? But I personally don't find it very rewarding to pot shot a free kill from half way across the map.


Also, moving a body out of line of sight for execution is the smart thing to do regardless for a protracted fight. You know humans will be running back to support team mates.
Draging a body for .5-1 second to get it around waist high cover in Pubs is one thing, but having to drag it for 2-3 seconds to avoid spawns because PUGs/premades are telling teammates where you are in kill cam is another. This isn't about one side "not playing right" but that one ability has too much flexibility.


You say Explosive Shot is a pseudo-melee ability? Sure, but so is Light Bomb and Light Bomb doesn't inflict friendly fire to yourself.
Apples and oranges, Light Bomb has a throw animation and a short maximum arc. Up close they can be used the same sure, but it's the subtle differences at longer range that makes Explosive Shot better; as well the fact that Alchemist's canon has much more limitations.


Grenade might have that big bang damage number of 500, but it's got to be where a vampire or vampires are going to be and with the long fuse it's not really a close range ability. It has more utility at longer range tosses because the fuse has time to count down.
And what's wrong with that? When Grenade had a shorter fuse all people did was throw it at their feet in hopes of out DPSing a vampire at close range.

TheDreamcrusher
13th Feb 2015, 07:28
I did say that an argument could be made didn't I? But I personally don't find it very rewarding to pot shot a free kill from half way across the map.

Well, that's like your opinion, man.


Dragging a body for .5-1 second to get it around waist high cover in Pubs is one thing, but having to drag it for 2-3 seconds to avoid spawns because PUGs/premades are telling teammates where you are in kill cam is another. This isn't about one side "not playing right" but that one ability has too much flexibility.

This doesn't even occur more than once or twice a round. There's a few things that have to go right in order for an across the map Explosive Shot kill to even happen. This is what has you wound up about the ability?


Apples and oranges, Light Bomb has a throw animation and a short maximum arc. Up close they can be used the same sure, but it's the subtle differences at longer range that makes Explosive Shot better; as well the fact that Alchemist's canon has much more limitations.

Not really apples and oranges. Firing projectiles out of a launcher typically gets more distance than a thrown one. There's damage fall-off for 3 shots meaning unless all 3 shots are direct hits, which is likely at short to medium distances, it's going to bring the average damage down quite a bit. Hunter doesn't get a persistent AoE ability either; any more differences you want to point out between the classes?


And what's wrong with that? When Grenade had a shorter fuse all people did was throw it at their feet in hopes of out DPSing a vampire at close range.

What's wrong with it is watching my round damage go down about a third because vampires are wise enough not to get caught in its blast. A roll is all it takes to put enough distance between them and the blast and the fuse timer makes it nearly unusable at close range, which in turn makes Explosive Shot better all around.