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View Full Version : Psyonix Don't Care About Older players?



shootzz
7th Feb 2015, 05:09
This is a discussion on the party system and focus on older players (players who've been here since day 1 or for a long time). Recently after the open beta every game that I join or any other older players join takes a minimum of 5+ minutes to search for match and also waiting in the lobby for the players to fill up all together = 20-30 minutes+ of just waiting alone. That's insane@!!!!!! The main problem is due to the MMR party system which ONLY throw you in games with players with high MMR as you. Hence most of the time I play Nosgoth I'm playing with the same handful of people every match. If that's not enough most of the time when we actually found a game and if someone left, the game would stay 4v3 or 2v4 the whole entire duration of the game (probably because they can't search for higher mmr players, another face palm).

I heard Nosgoth has been downloaded by alot of players since Open Beta and I expected to play with new people. The reality is I am playing with the same handful of old players again and again.

I just feel like they don't give a crap about Pre-Beta or Alpha players (the ones who gave them alot of feedback / suggestions) or they just simply neglect those players. This is just a little rant:mad:

GenFeelGood
7th Feb 2015, 05:28
Give it some time, a lot of these new players aren't good enough to go against us old guys yet. There can be hundreds of new people coming by the day, they are still new and need to work their way up.

shootzz
7th Feb 2015, 06:01
I will try not to bend your words, but in short, you are saying "oh just take a few months off of Nosgoth and wait till New players get good MMR and then comeback and enjoy Nosgoth again." Good idea but this won't change the party system. Those new players will play with the same high ranks over and over again.

So either they make a ladder mode for RANK GAmeS ONLY, and a normal casual mode for players who just want to play by themselves and not take game serious. I don't see this problem going away soon where you have to wait forever to play.

ApollosBow
7th Feb 2015, 06:15
Im doing ok in terms of matchmaking..but iv only been playing since around 2014 August-Sep.....some party issues though, game crashes when i try to join people, and sometimes it'll say im in there party when im not.

GenFeelGood
7th Feb 2015, 06:27
I wasn't trying to tell you to give up playing for a time. Have you not had any luck mixing things up or finding matches quicker when you change server regions?

enkaku-silence-
7th Feb 2015, 06:29
Wow that's like an athlete complaining about competing with the same contestants every event.

Imagine Usain Bolt complaining about running against the same people everytime and mentioning that there are grade schoolers running in gym class. Why can't he just run against them?
Because they are not good enough. Probably they will be, but it will take a lot of time.

See how bizarre that is? If you are good at something, there are less people to compete with in that field.
Get over it.

Kootkha
7th Feb 2015, 08:30
Yes, it is a real problem. Developers should reconsider the way matchmaking works.

Wow that's like an athlete complaining about competing with the same contestants every event.

Imagine Usain Bolt complaining about running against the same people everytime and mentioning that there are grade schoolers running in gym class. Why can't he just run against them?
Because they are not good enough. Probably they will be, but it will take a lot of time.

See how bizarre that is? If you are good at something, there are less people to compete with in that field.
Get over it.
Have u ever thought, that it is not a sport , it's just freetime leisure, and why should people pay the price of long waiting and playing only with choosen few only because they are good at this game?

Knast_core
7th Feb 2015, 14:58
Shootz you probably really good at this game. So what do you want them to do? Throwing some less good player in your game. This would make every round a Rape fest for you and your Mates. this way you on one hand frustrate thees people and on the other hand i dot think it will be more fun for you.

I rather wait longer and play against the same skill lvl (same ppl) over and over again instead of being the guy in the Team with 20 Kills and stil loosing because the rest of my team just feeding the enemy.
But i´m not as high as you so i don´t play to often agains the same ppl, even i stay in lobby as long as it´s full so yes sometimes i play agains/with the same ppl for 6+ matches and im ok with it.

I mean what exactly do you want them o change?

Giving you weaker players to rap? - im mean it´s bad to wait that long but like the other mentionbed, wait for more player being good and in the mean time play agains so other pros all over again.

Aggggh
7th Feb 2015, 15:04
In short, you want good matchmaking, but aren't willing to let the ideal system collect data in order to work properly. Get real please, you'd be whining about crap matchmaking if Psyonix hadn't implemented mmr. Suck it up, search through multiple regions for matches and wait until there are enough higher rated players. The alternative of consistently terrible matchmaking for everyone is not worth it.

Necro71
7th Feb 2015, 16:50
The MMR destroying a game, its too soon to implement it at this moment, player data base is to small, there are not many players with high win rate. What should people who played for long time do? Wait month or two for fresh high rank players to appear?

ROLLBACK to state form before 3rd february plox, and add new MMR when there will be more players.

Knast_core
7th Feb 2015, 17:44
I think if they just change the MMR a bit will help.

Like:
If you´re very good an on a cetain MMR, the system looks faster for players that arent up to your MMR. They changed it whith the late patch, so now it´s looking loger and spreading the MMR slower - in case of a certain rank they just should not whait to long, like maximum of 2 minutes bevor you get into a lower rank lvl game

shootzz
7th Feb 2015, 18:29
What I'm trying to say is that the wait is crazy long, 20 minute+ per game. Cause there aren't that many good players to fill a match up quick. After a long day I want to just play a casual game but it's crazy how long it takes per game. I tried many different server but still the same result. The MMR system is still too early for it to be in the game cause many players are still new (understandable since we just have open beta) but my point is what the hell they going to do with the handful of high mmr players? That's really messed up how they throw us under the bus. As of the not noob stomping thing, I used to play with new players and I just play around and not kill as much, you will see me always the bottom two in the score board. I don't want to try in every game cause that defeat the purpose of "casual gaming", but that's not possible when u up against good players.

Necro71
7th Feb 2015, 19:10
Wow that's like an athlete complaining about competing with the same contestants every event.

Imagine Usain Bolt complaining about running against the same people everytime and mentioning that there are grade schoolers running in gym class. Why can't he just run against them?
Because they are not good enough. Probably they will be, but it will take a lot of time.

See how bizarre that is? If you are good at something, there are less people to compete with in that field.
Get over it.

enkaku do You really compare players with higher MMR to World Class Sportsman who does sports for an living? What people brag about is not that they wanna to beat up newbs like You, but becouse they can't i repeat CAN'T play without spending more time in lobby than in an actual game, if they will ever join any. And when they join, they see all the time same nicknames - meaning there are only fiew, little percent of players who gets under the consideration of MMR. For me it can't stay like this with as fiew people, this MMR system was implemented too soon, game needs to have much bigger player base. As i mentioned in diffrent thread, we have 5k players in peak scattered in to 5 diffrent regions (US West and East, Europe, Australia and Japan).

If You wanna to do something with getting pawned all the time, dont cry about people with high win rate, becouse they can be same way in yours team as against you. Cry about pre-made teams that are screwing up games. Pre-mades with more than 2 players should have seperate lobbies to play.

Nordikc
8th Feb 2015, 00:28
This wouldn't be as big of a problem if you could run around the map and not have to wait in a lobby. Make the server itself a lobby.

Ghosthree3
8th Feb 2015, 00:42
I've compiled a gallery that depicts all the fun I've been having today with Nosgoth.

http://imgur.com/a/5T4YB

Constructive criticism is appreciated and encouraged.

Vampmaster
8th Feb 2015, 01:29
You really compare players with higher MMR to World Class Sportsman who does sports for an living?

Actually, the majority of competitive players do make a living from winning videogames. A low W/L ratio can cost them their chance at being spotted by talent scouts. I hate playing against those guys, because they don't always realise that some people aren't able to make the sort of commitment required to reach their ability level of play.

Necro71
8th Feb 2015, 01:58
Actually, the majority of competitive players do make a living from winning videogames. A low W/L ratio can cost them their chance at being spotted by talent scouts. I hate playing against those guys, because they don't always realise that some people aren't able to make the sort of commitment required to reach their ability level of play.

Dude, not in Nosgoth... Also there are no Scouts on Deathmatch or Flashpoints with random people, this game dont even have spectator option for now. Porfessional Gamer cna be spotted by a Scout when playing tournaments. So please dont tell me that lack of MMR in Nosgoth will destroy sombofys bright gaming future.

Vampmaster
8th Feb 2015, 03:25
Dude, not in Nosgoth... Also there are no Scouts on Deathmatch or Flashpoints with random people, this game dont even have spectator option for now. Porfessional Gamer cna be spotted by a Scout when playing tournaments. So please dont tell me that lack of MMR in Nosgoth will destroy sombofys bright gaming future.

Yeah, but it's still a point of view that carries over to Nosgoth despite the current lack of features supporting that type thing. It's not a view that I hold myself, but it's a common one that can be difficult to relate to. Especially since there's not much justification for it right now.

--Ram--
8th Feb 2015, 04:57
I've compiled a gallery that depicts all the fun I've been having today with Nosgoth.

http://imgur.com/a/5T4YB

Constructive criticism is appreciated and encouraged.

This was my highlight from yesterdays play

Psyonix_Corey
9th Feb 2015, 18:42
Hi guys,

I realize this is frustrating, but it's not a simple fix.

We do have a revamped MMR algorithm rolling out this week hopefully that will do a better (and faster) job of tracking player skill. The current algorithm is too conservative with how quickly a player can gain or lose skill rating, and this has resulted in some player starvation at higher MMR values.

We're going to get that out and see if it improves things, along with a few other tweaks. We'll make more changes based on the results. We can't simply undo the MMR tolerance changes without bringing back older issues with pros stomping less skilled players all day.

JanubeTaso
9th Feb 2015, 20:40
Corey's absolutely right, but you guys need to stand back and listen to yourselves.

I was in SMNC for most of its life, and the lack of a decent matchmaking system is what killed it. Putting people like me who had clocked several hundred hours in against people who even had as much as 50 hours was a death sentence for them. Nosgoth is a high skill ceiling, low skill floor game. This means the individuals who have had time to hone their skills more (read: alpha players) are at a hilarious advantage over newer players.

I've put about 50 hours into Nosgoth since the open beta started a few weeks ago, and I feel like I'm getting pretty good at it, but when I see an alpha player who's sunk a lot of time into it, it's super obvious and I get floored completely. That's not fun, I imagine, for either of us.

I understand the issue with being starved for games at the top, but that's kinda' what happens in a game like this when people opt into the alpha. You can't get mad at the designers for the relative lack of players at your skill level three weeks into the open beta when you've had it for how many months? That's the unfortunate reality of the situation you waltzed into without thinking. The best thing you can do is take a week or two to play another game and check back intermittently to see if newer players have started hitting that MMR level.

Putting you in a stompfest game won't solve your problem, which is a problem steeped in the reality of demographics. Not only that, but enough stompfests for newer players, and they leave feeling disenfranchised. Rinse and repeat until new players are scared and reviews are poor at best. Then the population shrinks and the game dies.

Or you could wait a bit and realize that you put yourself into this position, unfortunate though it may be.

Korbinz
9th Feb 2015, 20:49
i posted more or less the same things on another thread

Ghosthree3
9th Feb 2015, 22:20
I understand the issue with being starved for games at the top, but that's kinda' what happens in a game like this when people opt into the alpha. You can't get mad at the designers for the relative lack of players at your skill level three weeks into the open beta when you've had it for how many months? That's the unfortunate reality of the situation you waltzed into without thinking. The best thing you can do is take a week or two to play another game and check back intermittently to see if newer players have started hitting that MMR level.

I would would agree however that is not the case for me. I have only about 36 hours - started a week before Summoner - of in game play time and I'm one of the people that cannot find any games, so for me it's not like I've been enjoying this game for months and now have to take a break for a week or so, it's like I tried to play the game and instantly got slapped down and told "NO, BAD DOG".

If I wasn't so into the game and didn't know better, I'd take this as a sign that the game is pretty awful and has no players because the game literally 'ran out' a week into play. I expect a lot of people would just quit in those circumstances.

I realise it's just a week but come on, I was just getting started.

PollyEsther
9th Feb 2015, 22:33
This week is kinda vague, is there a day you generally do patches?

Also, how is changing how quickly one can gain and decay in mmr going to fix current issue of no games, there is still going to be a lack of high skilled players and therefore a lack of games to change mmr ratings.

JanubeTaso
10th Feb 2015, 04:55
I would would agree however that is not the case for me. I have only about 36 hours - started a week before Summoner - of in game play time and I'm one of the people that cannot find any games.

Huh. Well, I have no idea what to tell ya'. I get games within 30 seconds - 2 minutes, but I'm probably not up to your snuff. Not much different as far as recommendations go though- if you're just naturally way better than everyone else, you'll have to take a backseat while people learn the game and get decent.

The population just isn't there to support constant play at all levels, and the best way to continue growing the population is, unfortunately, not to let new players get completely stomped. The matchmaking system should theoretically be increasing the range at which it searches for matches as time goes on, but it's possible that everyone below you is just getting into games too quickly to accept the high-end outlier.

Sounds like it'll be addressed, at least in part, within the week, so you'll have to be patient one way or the other.



Also, how is changing how quickly one can gain and decay in mmr going to fix current issue of no games, there is still going to be a lack of high skilled players and therefore a lack of games to change mmr ratings.

Newer players who win more will gain ranks more quickly, thus allowing them to be pitted against existing high-rank players in the system.

Ghosthree3
10th Feb 2015, 05:00
Not much different as far as recommendations go though- if you're just naturally way better than everyone else, you'll have to take a backseat while people learn the game and get decent.
I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to play just because I'm decent though.


The population just isn't there to support constant play at all levels, and the best way to continue growing the population is, unfortunately, not to let new players get completely stomped.
I agree with you, I really do. But it still sucks for us though. Ideally once/if the game gets a big enough player base it will self sustain no matter how much stomping goes on. Mind you there will be less stomping because match making will be more accurate.

Talespin
10th Feb 2015, 05:32
I can't speak for everyone, but my main complaint isn't that it is hard to get in games, my complaint is that sometimes it's impossible to get in games. For almost a week. I spent over two hours on Sunday trying to just get in one game so I could warm up before the ESL cup started but it never happened.

P.S. Can I get a refund on my XP booster. Also, I never got my lvl 20 prophet reward, what's up with that.

PollyEsther
10th Feb 2015, 05:33
Theoretically that works, but if they can't handle it now, getting stomped later isn't going to change a thing.

Ghosthree3
10th Feb 2015, 05:38
I can't speak for everyone, but my main complaint isn't that it is hard to get in games, my complaint is that sometimes it's impossible to get in games. For almost a week. I spent over two hours on Sunday trying to just get in one game so I could warm up before the ESL cup started but it never happened.
Yeah, spent almost 3 hours in a lobby on Sunday. About 5 people total joined and left in that time.

I have managed to get into games since then though, but only because I've been letting a lower rated friend join a game then joining off him when his lobby is almost full. Even with me in there the average rating of the lobby seems low enough that people still join, albeit much slower than normal if the complaints in lobby chat are anything to go by.

Necro71
10th Feb 2015, 16:32
My friend has 10,3h hes level 15 and has 82% win rate, he has problems with finding a game after he grew up from New Recruit. So this problem does not concern only Alpha/Beta players but everybody with high MMR.