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Murphdawg1
7th Feb 2015, 00:19
I just can't get excited for any news about this game with the exclusivity hanging over, it's like a dark cloud raining on my parade. I mean those screen shots of Lara looked great and I would love to be excited but I just can't since the game isn't even being developed(as far as I know) for my platform. Is anyone else in this same boat or have you all somehow found a way to still be excited despite the what has happened? Perhaps I just need to not come around here until the end of year when perhaps there might be some news on a PS4 release.

Metalrocks
7th Feb 2015, 01:02
no, you are not alone. as much i like seeing and hearing new things about it, knowing in my back of my head thats crapcox only for who knows how long, i just cant this spark of excitement.

Error96_
7th Feb 2015, 01:55
I really like everything I have seen about the game content much more so than TR(2013). On the other hand CD and SE let down all of us by prioritising some fans over others and leaving many of TR's loyalist fans out in the cold. I know we as fans have to battle against the terrible direction they are taking and bring CD/SE round to seeing what a reputation destroying disaster these deals are. It could take years but I know I am in it for the long haul and eventually we will all be playing new TR games on day 1 on PS/PC again.

I feel ROTTR will be great but I don't feel excitement anymore but more annoyed that we have to fight this battle because CD don't have enough loyalty for us to say no to MS.

Larafan1996
7th Feb 2015, 03:10
It's a really rotten situation (made worse by the pretending nothing is happening so just go buy temple of osiris attitude), well as a Tomb Raider fan the Rise stuff all looks lovely. But who knows what great deals are instore for us next? Square enix plan for their western properties seems to revolve around "external funds" http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/15q2slides.pdf. It's sad Tomb raider has to play the pawn in corporate cheerleading to cover for Final Fantasy's failures, I think 14 has been in development limbo for 8 years now and still isn't done.

Tecstar70
7th Feb 2015, 07:59
I can understand this, but being that it is more likely that it will come to PS4 and PC than not (and as you all know I am 99.99% certain that it will) what is more likely:

- they will develop the Xbox One version totally in isolation, wait till that's out and then start work on a PS4 and PC version

- they develop the Xbox One alone, then do a potentially shoddy port to other platforms

- they develop all versions simultaneously and continue honing the PS4 and PC versions until their release date, at the same time releasing patches for the Xbox version.

I know you wanna her the news, but you won't get it this year and that's hard but I am positive that option 3 is happening.

Tihocan
7th Feb 2015, 08:15
- they develop all versions simultaneously and continue honing the PS4 and PC versions until their release date, at the same time releasing patches for the Xbox version.

Or, CD dev the XBone edition, while Nixxes competently ports the PC and PS4/3 editions under strict NDA...

Metalrocks
7th Feb 2015, 08:22
that sure would be great if they work on the other versions at the same time. at least a small team to make sure they dont spend too much time developing after the box release. maybe they gave it to nixxes already and when the time comes it will be ready on demand.

Tecstar70
7th Feb 2015, 08:25
Nixxes may well handle the PS3 port but I don't see why they would do the same for PC & PS4. I would have thought CD would do those themselves as per the Xbox One. It doesn't make sense to dilute processes and developing 4 versions while CD only do 1 would give Nixxes a hell of a lot to do!

Tihocan
7th Feb 2015, 09:39
Nixxes may well handle the PS3 port but I don't see why they would do the same for PC & PS4. I would have thought CD would do those themselves as per the Xbox One. It doesn't make sense to dilute processes and developing 4 versions while CD only do 1 would give Nixxes a hell of a lot to do!

It's actually the other way around. CD would do the core work on one platform, while Nixxes does the API equivalence on as many platforms as required. It's a hell of a lot of work in both courts - if CD had to do both platforms it would be quite a difficult undertaking - effectively diluting themselves..

Source: I used to work for Trolltech. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_Company)

AdeleDazeem
7th Feb 2015, 09:43
I don't think they'll release a PS3 version, it's probably around 2016-17 then.

As for not feeling it, I understand. I used to be in the same boat until I saw they're releasing it on 360 too. I'm okay with buying a €150 console to play Rise. But yeah, I have a PS4 here too. Ready to go. I bought it for many upcoming games, but the game that was at the very top, was Rise. And now several games overtook it, because I'm not as excited anymore. I'm still excited, but Rise lost some of it's charm.

Charlie_T_Raider
7th Feb 2015, 09:59
I was excited for TR 2013 and got it on release day. This deal is completely spoiling my excitement for ROTTR though.

AlexWeiss
7th Feb 2015, 16:05
If it makes you feel any hope, in one of the images from the Game Informer video, there was a Playstation developer console on one of the dev's desk. It could just have been for LCTOO, but what the Xbox can do on their console, Playstation can too, after all, the PS4 has higher upgraded hardware.

AdeleDazeem
7th Feb 2015, 16:48
If it makes you feel any hope, in one of the images from the Game Informer video, there was a Playstation developer console on one of the dev's desk. It could just have been for LCTOO, but what the Xbox can do on their console, Playstation can too, after all, the PS4 has higher upgraded hardware.

Good eye! Where/when did you see it exactly?

chriss_99
7th Feb 2015, 16:49
I feel sorry for the fans who won't be able to play the game on day one.
It's a cruel business move, even if they're just planning to confront Sony's Uncharted and Microsoft's Tomb Raider.
Eventually, ROTTR will be released on PS4, I'm sure of it, and everyone will forget about the whole deal.

docfraiser
7th Feb 2015, 18:14
well, I also feel sorry....but I am planning to buy a Xboxone anyway...nevertheless it is really sad that they just will release it for the xbox one and maybe xbox. But the dream is not over, as I heard they will eventually release it on another date for other platforms.

What I really find sad is, that Samantha won't show up in the game..only Jonah...so I guess they didn't look at the wish-list here!! so I don't know what from the wish-list will really be in the game!!!

Tihocan
7th Feb 2015, 21:46
Good eye! Where/when did you see it exactly?

The white box, a bit to the right of the guy on the far left.

AlexWeiss
7th Feb 2015, 22:05
Good eye! Where/when did you see it exactly?
This'll take you right to it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alOE_Eo4X-0#t=59), like Tihocan said, it's on the desk to the very left, just to the right of the guy at the computer. The white box is beneath a black one which has a phone on top of it.

I feel sorry for the fans who won't be able to play the game on day one.
It's a cruel business move, even if they're just planning to confront Sony's Uncharted and Microsoft's Tomb Raider.
Eventually, ROTTR will be released on PS4, I'm sure of it, and everyone will forget about the whole deal.
I almost feel sick at the sound of "Microsoft's Tomb Raider" :p

Tihocan
7th Feb 2015, 22:29
This'll take you right to it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alOE_Eo4X-0#t=59), like Tihocan said, it's on the desk to the very left, just to the right of the guy at the computer...

And is that a collection of baseball bobbleheads below it? :nut:

AlexWeiss
7th Feb 2015, 23:25
And is that a collection of baseball bobbleheads below it? :nut:
I'm laughing at how over specific I got there :lol:

AdeleDazeem
7th Feb 2015, 23:34
This'll take you right to it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alOE_Eo4X-0#t=59), like Tihocan said, it's on the desk to the very left, just to the right of the guy at the computer. The white box is beneath a black one which has a phone on top of it.


How did you guys even... never mind. Good catch. Hopefully Crystal tried to give a subtle hint. :p

MagnaBass18
8th Feb 2015, 05:37
If it makes you feel any hope, in one of the images from the Game Informer video, there was a Playstation developer console on one of the dev's desk. It could just have been for LCTOO, but what the Xbox can do on their console, Playstation can too, after all, the PS4 has higher upgraded hardware.

This post made me really hopeful:)

BlueSkiesXXV
8th Feb 2015, 11:12
Good post :thumb:

I have been a huge TR fan since launch day in 1996 and have bought ALL the games and A LOT of merch over the years (I even bought some Lara Croft branded shampoo back in the day & I have no hair...HA!!!). I signed up for these forums in early 2000, but used to visit a lot before that.

Regardless, of whether a PS4 version comes out, the way the hardcore PS/PC fans have been treated by CD thus far has turned me away somewhat and for the FIRST time ever TR has become a bit meh to me now.

It is the 20th anniversary next year and look what they have done :lmao:

Metalrocks
8th Feb 2015, 12:52
im sure CD is reading this. for sure meagan. but i guess they know or anticipated it that we will be outraged about it.
as the days pass by, the less i feel excited about the game. the new infos from gameinformer are surely nice but in the end i just feel disappointed; thinking about this deal they have concluded.
since the announcement i even refused to wear the tshirt i was given 2 years ago. i just dont feel wearing it.

IvanaKC
8th Feb 2015, 14:39
It's been enough time since the announcement of the exclusivity. Don't you guys think there's a bit too much overreacting? Come on, we know it's timed exclusive. Besides, I don't think whining will do any good to us, CD is probably way too busy with development to deal with raging fans again anyway. Instead of reading about, for example, how progress in graphics is noticed, all I read when I come to the forums is TROTTR being an exclusive. :rolleyes:







Oh, look, I have a nice round number of posts, 4500 :D

Metalrocks
8th Feb 2015, 15:07
still would be good to know when it will come out for us pc and ps gamers. just saying its "timed" does mean nothing. for how long? a year? 6 months?
thats the part that annoys me at most.

Tecstar70
8th Feb 2015, 15:39
still would be good to know when it will come out for us pc and ps gamers. just saying its "timed" does mean nothing. for how long? a year? 6 months?
thats the part that annoys me at most.

And unfortunately you are unlikely to know until 2016.

AdeleDazeem
8th Feb 2015, 15:51
And unfortunately you are unlikely to know until 2016.

Yeah, probably. Most retailers still allow you to pre-order Rise, for 2016.

Murphdawg1
8th Feb 2015, 16:26
It's been enough time since the announcement of the exclusivity. Don't you guys think there's a bit too much overreacting? Come on, we know it's timed exclusive. Besides, I don't think whining will do any good to us, CD is probably way too busy with development to deal with raging fans again anyway. Instead of reading about, for example, how progress in graphics is noticed, all I read when I come to the forums is TROTTR being an exclusive. :rolleyes:







Oh, look, I have a nice round number of posts, 4500 :D

Well then I guess you can blame Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics for killing the hype of their own game among those that don't own an Xbox.

AdeleDazeem
8th Feb 2015, 17:50
Well then I guess you can blame Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics for killing the hype of their own game among those that don't own an Xbox.

More specificly, the ones who don't want an Xbox One in the new generation.

MagnaBass18
8th Feb 2015, 19:37
So, as of right now, we still have no actual confirmation that this game will come to PC/PS4 do we? The only thing is that the deal has a duration?

Tecstar70
8th Feb 2015, 19:58
So, as of right now, we still have no actual confirmation that this game will come to PC/PS4 do we? The only thing is that the deal has a duration?

Correct. Officially that is all that we, the general public, know. We can only make assumptions based on speculation and likelihood.

AdeleDazeem
8th Feb 2015, 20:04
Let's just say it would be incredibly strange (and dumb) if they excluded the PS4 and PC forever. But as a PS4 owner... I don't wanna give myself false hope. You never know...

MagnaBass18
8th Feb 2015, 20:08
Let's just say it would be incredibly strange (and dumb) if they excluded the PS4 and PC forever. But as a PS4 owner... I don't wanna give myself false hope. You never know...

I know how you feel. I give myself false hope all the time.

IvanaKC
8th Feb 2015, 22:03
Well then I guess you can blame Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics for killing the hype of their own game among those that don't own an Xbox.

Sure I do, I don't own an Xbox either. However, I don't think it's necessary to bring that particular issue all the time. Do you realize this is already a third thread about this? Driber merged the two previous threads that were supposed to be about slightly different topics because they turned out exactly the same.

AdeleDazeem
8th Feb 2015, 22:08
Sure I do, I don't own an Xbox either. However, I don't think it's necessary to bring that particular issue all the time. Do you realize this is already a third thread about this? Driber merged the two previous threads that were supposed to be about slightly different topics because they turned out exactly the same.

It's getting a little old too. All this negativity. Don't take me wrong, it's well deserved. But it's a little been there, done that. The deal sucks, it brought us closer as a community, we ranted on it, now it's time to move on and be patient. :)

IvanaKC
8th Feb 2015, 22:23
It's getting a little old too. All this negativity. Don't take me wrong, it's well deserved. But it's a little been there, done that. The deal sucks, it brought us closer as a community, we ranted on it, now it's time to move on and be patient. :)

A voice of reason. That's what I've been saying with my past two posts. ;)

Tihocan
8th Feb 2015, 22:24
Well then I guess you can blame Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics for killing the hype of their own game among those that don't own an Xbox.


Sure I do, I don't own an Xbox either. However, I don't think it's necessary to bring that particular issue all the time. Do you realize this is already a third thread about this? Driber merged the two previous threads that were supposed to be about slightly different topics because they turned out exactly the same.


It's getting a little old too. All this negativity. Don't take me wrong, it's well deserved. But it's a little been there, done that. The deal sucks, it brought us closer as a community, we ranted on it, now it's time to move on and be patient. :)

This. I love this forum, but it's kinda been a bit bleak lately.
The ball is in their court now - unless the have their [insert picture of guy with head up his own butt] then they've heard it and now we just have to wait for their decision to become public.

Rai
9th Feb 2015, 01:18
As it's been said before, CD may not be able to say a thing about the deal or a possibility of a PC/PS release until much further down the line due to the terms of that deal. The closest they've done (which is acceptable to MS,I guess) is to say 'we won't rule out the possibility'. As much as it sucks for those on the PC/PS systems, they're basically playing the waiting game, probably until after the duration ends, whenever that is.

I do have an Xbox 1 so I'm lucky that I can enjoy the lead up to release knowing I can get it day one, that wasn't the case at the time of the announcement though. I can understand though how frustrating it must be to see the info we're finally getting not knowing if/when you'll ever to get to play it. I really do hope the game comes to those platforms eventually, so that all TR fans can enjoy it.

Lara_Fan_84
9th Feb 2015, 02:28
I was so excited about this until I heard it was only for Xbox as a timed exclusive. I saddens me to see the promo trailers and things like that and know I won't be able to play it when it comes out. I'll never give in and buy a system just so I can play the game until it's PS4 time for me. Right now, I can safely play PS3 games with newer games and the day I get a PS4 will be the day that I know Rise is coming to the PS4. I haven't lost hope that PS4 and PC gamers will get to play Rise it's just now we have to wait one or two years after its original release to play it and by then it may be old news. I'm trying to avoid this section, because I don't want to see anymore game play or promo trailers and look at the screen like this... :eek::( meaning being in awe of it's awesomeness and being sad I can't play it. I seriously hope we don't have to go through this every time there's a new game for this new series.

Tecstar70
9th Feb 2015, 10:35
it's just now we have to wait one or two years after its original release to play it

I very much doubt you will have to wait that long! I would be amazed if you don't have your shiny new PS4 by Easter 2016!

AdeleDazeem
9th Feb 2015, 12:12
I very much doubt you will have to wait that long! I would be amazed if you don't have your shiny new PS4 by Easter 2016!

Easter sounds good to me! But it still feels a little too early. M$ payed this much money for just, what is it, 5 months of exclusivity?

Tecstar70
9th Feb 2015, 12:28
Easter sounds good to me! But it still feels a little too early. M$ payed this much money for just, what is it, 5 months of exclusivity?

I am basing this prediction on the following; Someone in the trade previously posted here that exclusivity deals have maximum impact for around 90 days in terms of generating additional sales. If MS start their exclusivity from November 1st (the US "Holiday" period more or less) that gives them until February 1st. I believe that this deal is primarily designed to shift Xboxes for the Christmas market. After January the Christmas market dies down and sales start to slow up when everyones credit card bills come in. As far as MS is concerned this will be job done. As far as SE is concerned they need to then think about shifting more of THEIR product. How long will they wait? Not long as the intial hype caused by Xbox gamers will start to die down and as new games come to market RotTR's profile will start to fall so SE will want to capitalise on the publicity and hype around the Xbox deal. Based on this, Easter 2016 does not sound unreasonable, providing I am right about the 90 days and MS's intentions. IF MS and SE see value in a longer period of exclusivity then my prediction is blown out of the water!

Steel_Wing
9th Feb 2015, 12:33
It's getting a little old too. All this negativity. Don't take me wrong, it's well deserved. But it's a little been there, done that. The deal sucks, it brought us closer as a community, we ranted on it, now it's time to move on and be patient. :)

I think you are wrong. Darrel Gallagher and those around him will watching the forum to see signs of the negativity going to show fans accepting the deal so he can justify doing this to us again on the next game. He will think 'yeah the fans were angry but now they are over it so we got away with it'. The negativity may not be good but not standing up for this gets us this deal again next time and every time after that. Let's show everyone at CD/SE we still feel just as strong on this as the day this was announced and maybe being more persistent may get us a better result.

The main objective of the deal looks to be shift Xboxes over Christmas/January sales and once that is past doesn't matter so much so I can see 4-6 months being realistic.

Tihocan
9th Feb 2015, 12:36
Easter sounds good to me! But it still feels a little too early. M$ payed this much money for just, what is it, 5 months of exclusivity?

Exclusivity depends on the typical human trait of instant gratification. Most people cannot wait for a couple of weeks, let alone a month or two, for something they really want. That being the role of advertising, to instil that "want".
This is heavily supported by the concept of pre-order, hype and the society driven "FOMO" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_missing_out).

With this all in mind, that amount of money would be enough even for a month or so of exclusivity. In fact, if tailed onto the expected success of the XBone version, maintaining the hype and not pushing it too far after, the PS4/PC editions will still have some measure of success (albeit on a significantly smaller scale).

XBone will take the undecided, those with "too much money"* and the inherently impatient away from Sony - while still gaining the hardened PlayStation / PC users before the honeymoon is over.

It actually seems brilliant from an aggressive (though risky) product management standpoint.

*Who can afford both.

Steel_Wing
9th Feb 2015, 12:46
With this all in mind, that amount of money would be enough even for a month or so of exclusivity. In fact, if tailed onto the expected success of the XBone version, maintaining the hype and not pushing it too far after, the PS4/PC editions will still have some measure of success (albeit on a significantly smaller scale).

XBone will take the undecided, those with "too much money"* and the inherently impatient away from Sony - while still gaining the hardened PlayStation / PC users before the honeymoon is over.

It actually seems brilliant from an aggressive (though risky) product management standpoint.

*Who can afford both.

The biggest TR fanbase going back is on PS, it sold more copies of TR 2013 and far more PS4 sold than MS have sold Xbox one so I am not so sure that PS sales will be that far behind xbox even on such an uneven playing field. I could afford to buy an xbox one but I don't want to give into this bullying MS attitude. From MS's perspective this deal move is clever but for CD it is more quickest way to spoil their reputation.

Tecstar70
9th Feb 2015, 13:16
The biggest TR fanbase going back is on PS, it sold more copies of TR 2013 and far more PS4 sold than MS have sold Xbox one so I am not so sure that PS sales will be that far behind xbox even on such an uneven playing field. I could afford to buy an xbox one but I don't want to give into this bullying MS attitude. From MS's perspective this deal move is clever but for CD it is more quickest way to spoil their reputation.

I believe that CD/SE knew the level of flak they would get for the deal. So much passion was exhibited by the fanbase over the franchise and TR2013 in particular that major flak was inevitable. As we don't know whom is gaining what/how much from whom it's difficult to know exactly why it's such an atractive proposition to both parties but we can make educated guesses.

At the end of the day if it sells shed-loads on all platforms that will satisfy SE and they may well do it again. Maybe even in reverse with Sony. Then all us Xbox owners can complain about how our beloved Xbox-exclusive franchise has been hijacked by nasty Sony! :D

"We helped it become the biggest franchise in the world....blah...blah..sob!"

AdeleDazeem
9th Feb 2015, 13:30
IF MS and SE see value in a longer period of exclusivity then my prediction is blown out of the water!

Still, what you just said makes sense. I hope you're right!

Steel_Wing
9th Feb 2015, 17:18
I believe that CD/SE knew the level of flak they would get for the deal. So much passion was exhibited by the fanbase over the franchise and TR2013 in particular that major flak was inevitable. As we don't know whom is gaining what/how much from whom it's difficult to know exactly why it's such an atractive proposition to both parties but we can make educated guesses.

At the end of the day if it sells shed-loads on all platforms that will satisfy SE and they may well do it again. Maybe even in reverse with Sony. Then all us Xbox owners can complain about how our beloved Xbox-exclusive franchise has been hijacked by nasty Sony! :D

"We helped it become the biggest franchise in the world....blah...blah..sob!"

I know you mock the heritage argument but many fans have been playing TR games and building up the TR brand back 15 years on PS or PC and at that point it was exclusive against xbox for many TR games because Xbox didn't exist. We can't dwell too much on the history though and right now more than 1/2 TR players don't know if they will get to play this game without buying an Xbox. If you weren't being told if you would get to play this game you would be mad too. I don't want TR to swing the other way and all the Xbox gamers to get selected against as that isn't the result I hope for. No exclusivity so none of the big 3 (Xbox/PS/PC) miss out is best.

I know CD will anticipated a big backlash and will have been ready for that to happen. CD will only start to worry when the backlash continues and Darrell realise that the fans are not going to come round to his pro-MS vision.

Tecstar70
9th Feb 2015, 17:42
I know you mock the heritage argument but many fans have been playing TR games and building up the TR brand back 15 years on PS or PC and at that point it was exclusive against xbox for many TR games because Xbox didn't exist. We can't dwell too much on the history though and right now more than 1/2 TR players don't know if they will get to play this game without buying an Xbox. If you weren't being told if you would get to play this game you would be mad too. I don't want TR to swing the other way and all the Xbox gamers to get selected against as that isn't the result I hope for. No exclusivity so none of the big 3 (Xbox/PS/PC) miss out is best.

I know CD will anticipated a big backlash and will have been ready for that to happen. CD will only start to worry when the backlash continues and Darrell realise that the fans are not going to come round to his pro-MS vision.

I kind of understand and don't understand the heritage argument, if that makes sense. I started playing TR on PC myself. I get the argument that it seems unfair to exclude a platform where traditionally a game has appeared, but if I was a PC/PS4 owner I would just have to get over it and know I would have to wait a few months. I am just realistic in that what companies would like to do and what they need/have to do aren't necessarily the same. Who knows, without this deal RotTR may not have happened, or could have been delayed or turned into a more generic third person shooter to appeal to the masses in that way. Maybe the MS exposure (and there will be major exposure outside of our little microcosm) will project TR right up there to become an even bigger franchise that will secure TR for the next few subsequent games. There may well be a very positive outcome from this that we may not even be aware of.

I don't think Darryl has a pro-MS vision as such and that he is under any illusion that fans will come around to the deal. It only seems pro-MS because that business decision was made and CD have to toe the line. It's not the end of the world (it really isn't!!) and the chances of it NOT coming to other platforms are so tiny its not worth worrying about. Having to wait, I grant you is a PITA, but I am 100% sure it will come.

Ask yourself this - if SE was YOUR company and had to make this deal for whatever reason, what would you do with the game when the timed deal expires? NOT sell it on other platforms?

WinterSoldierLTE
9th Feb 2015, 22:42
I'm excited for the game, but it's not the game I'm looking forward to the most in 2015 (or 2016, even). Not because I won't be able to play it anytime soon (I'm a ps3&4 owner), I just can't get massively hyped about it for some reason I can't quite put my finger on. I've thought about this a lot since seeing this thread pop up a few days back and at this point it's just another game for me. It's nice to get new info about it, yeah, but I just can't get overly excited like I used to years ago for other releases, be it video games or music or movies or whatever.

I think I've just reached a point in life where I've come to accept that 10 months is not that long of a time to wait, nor is 2 years if need be. And I've come to realize that not everything that gets massively hyped is worth it. I'm not saying "Rise" won't be worth the hype or wait, I've just personally had very few video game releases that live up to it. Basically for me the last two game releases I got super psyched for were 'Alien: Isolation' and 'Resident Evil Four'. Whoops! I meant 'Alien: Isolation' and 'The Evil Within'. My bad.

Anyways, one didn't disappoint, and one did.

I suppose for me it's best not to get "in the mood" until it's pretty much 2 days away from release, so I try not to.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
10th Feb 2015, 02:14
I don't think Darryl has a pro-MS vision as such and that he is under any illusion that fans will come around to the deal. It only seems pro-MS because that business decision was made and CD have to toe the line. It's not the end of the world (it really isn't!!) and the chances of it NOT coming to other platforms are so tiny its not worth worrying about. Having to wait, I grant you is a PITA, but I am 100% sure it will come.

You debate very well Tescar and all praise to you for that.

I have been a fan from TR1 in 1996 and TR has been my favourite series all the time after that. CD had been great with their interaction but then MS make this deal and all is changed. Everything we had from Crystal has had vast strings of compliments towards Microsoft and minimal passion when talking about fans of other consoles. Having to wait while others play ROTTR is infuriating. What is more annoying is after 17 years of PC and PS building massive TR support the people at the top of CD seem to no longer appreciate the wonderful TR communities that are out here for them. If they did they would have been much clearer about it by now. Darrell can be happy about MS but he shouldn't lose his perspective on other things.

They can bring the big parade 5 hours late and mess everyone about in the meanwhile but when it does arrive the crowds who came out to cheer already got fed up and went home. That is how I feel about ROTTR.

Tecstar70
10th Feb 2015, 07:19
You debate very well Tescar and all praise to you for that.

I have been a fan from TR1 in 1996 and TR has been my favourite series all the time after that. CD had been great with their interaction but then MS make this deal and all is changed. Everything we had from Crystal has had vast strings of compliments towards Microsoft and minimal passion when talking about fans of other consoles. Having to wait while others play ROTTR is infuriating. What is more annoying is after 17 years of PC and PS building massive TR support the people at the top of CD seem to no longer appreciate the wonderful TR communities that are out here for them. If they did they would have been much clearer about it by now. Darrell can be happy about MS but he shouldn't lose his perspective on other things.

They can bring the big parade 5 hours late and mess everyone about in the meanwhile but when it does arrive the crowds who came out to cheer already got fed up and went home. That is how I feel about ROTTR.

Thanks Gemma. :thumb:

My understanding is that it is SE as the publisher who would have signed the deal, not the devs CD. Signing such a deal means that talking about other platforms will be restricted because that's what the deal is all about - publicising the Xbox. Neither CD or SE are going to talk about other platforms or when the exclusivity period may end as these topics compromise the deal. Darryl has to toe the line and abide by the deal. He has no option. The result is the feelings you express, which is understandable in these circumstances. To say that CD don't appreciate the PC and PS communities I think is misinterpreting the situation. It's not that they don't, they can't cant say they do!

Larafan1996
10th Feb 2015, 09:43
Exactly and that is the problem, all of this is not to the Tomb Raider franchises benefit but to Microsoft's benefit. Xbox came limping out the gate with a machine that people didn't want, the backlash against their terrible policys was so bad that they had change how it worked entirely just for people to buy it and now because they are so creatively bancrupt they hyjack an established franchise instead of creating something of their own.

Microsoft needs Tomb Raider because they are worried about Uncharted (despite it having little in common with TR), they need to silence any talk about the other platforms to stand any chance of deciving people into buying xbox ones and Square Enix has taken advantage of that agreeing to go along with their robot style messaging in exchange for their "external funds" but just like Edios before them they are putting the TR franchise in a dangerous position without looking at the longterm effects to the ip.

Microsoft will need Rise released by holiday 2015 in time for those black friday sales and they will not care what state it is in as long as it is only on xbox. History repeats, it'll be Angel of Darkness all over again.

Tecstar70
10th Feb 2015, 13:09
Exactly and that is the problem, all of this is not to the Tomb Raider franchises benefit but to Microsoft's benefit.
You can't know this without having full access to the details of the deal.



Xbox came limping out the gate with a machine that people didn't want, the backlash against their terrible policys was so bad that they had change how it worked entirely just for people to buy it and now because they are so creatively bancrupt they hyjack an established franchise instead of creating something of their own.
True. But SE could have said no. The need to generate sales didn't provide adequate timescales for MS to develop a totally new IP. They do have their own platform exclusives though, just as Sony do.


Microsoft needs Tomb Raider because they are worried about Uncharted (despite it having little in common with TR), Yes they do need TR. Thats why they did the deal, but how can you say Uncharted has little in common with TR? It kind of DOES!


they need to silence any talk about the other platforms to stand any chance of deciving people into buying xbox onesOf course they need to "silence talk about the other platforms". Why would MS want to promote someone elses product? All sales pitches are a form of deception. Sales and advertising are designed to sway your opinon to purchase a certain product. Its up to people to apply their own value on a sales pitch.



and Square Enix has taken advantage of that agreeing to go along with their robot style messaging in exchange for their "external funds" but just like Edios before them they are putting the TR franchise in a dangerous position without looking at the longterm effects to the ip.
We don't know this. RotTR may not exist without the deal. We don't know SE's expectations from the deal but can guess that he minimum is to match the success of TR2013. It will be difficult to really say until at least a year after all platforms are available but I maintain that if it's a good game and MS have helped SE hype it enough it will sell bucketloads.


Microsoft will need Rise released by holiday 2015 in time for those black friday sales
Exactly what I think.



and they will not care what state it is in as long as it is only on xbox. History repeats, it'll be Angel of Darkness all over again.

I just don't buy this view that MS/SE don't care. It's in both parties interests for it to be a success. At the very least MS want it to boost sales of their products. If it does then they can use similar deals again, not just with TR. If its financially attractive for SE and allows them to make and sell more games then they will also win. Now whether the things they care about and the things you care about match up is a diffeernt matter, but I believe that CD care very much about delivering the best game possible and staying true both to the legacy of Tomb Raider and to their vision of the reboot.

AoD was a slightly different situation and I think the two main aspects of its failure were that they were trying to do something slightly different with the style of the game and that they were under pressure to deliver a game without being given enough time to do it properly. I don't believe RotTR is suffering from either of these pressures.

Metalrocks
10th Feb 2015, 14:46
for us it is obvious why M$ did it which we debut from all the news media outlets. we will never know the entire truth but it doesnt need a finance adviser to put 2 and 2 together for this deal they have made.

if they at least can say that the PS and PC crowd wont be abandoned by this deal, this would ease down the aggravation. just saying its timed, is not very reassuring or comforting.

Larafan1996
10th Feb 2015, 19:43
I know from a PR standpoint it isn't to the series benefit, TR has never been put in such a negative light by the media and general public. Look on facebook, tumblr, gameinformer, tomb raider forums and this very forum and there is more negativity surrounding this release than there has ever been.

Xbox has been in the game for 13 years and in all that time they didn't have the capability to develop a new ip? Their first party line-up is so empty compared to Nintendo and Sony. They already took the very ending to Underworld away from us so why didn't they catch on to make their own ip then? I'll tell you why, because Microsoft while having all the cash in the world has no vision and no backbone. They'd rather buy their way to the top through monopoly than make something original of their own. Heck their biggest series and success wasn't even theirs, Halo was a mac game that they pilfered exclusively for Xbox before it could be released.

TR and Uncharted at their core are fundamentally different, TR invented a genre while Uncharted was a derivative copy cat 3rd person cover shooter dressed up with good acting. TR focus is on traversal, puzzle solving, exploration while Uncharted's focus is on handholding, roller-coaster set pieces, linearity and shooting endless enemies. Finally Tomb raider is a cultural icon, it has the most recognisable female protagonist in all of gaming with a heritage so great that is known by even people who don't play videogames, Uncharted does not have that kind of cultural cache.

May not exist? You can't seriously believe that, SquareEnix is not some upstart indie company and TR isn't a niche unknown that needs external financial backing like Bayonetta. SquareEnix bought Edios for Tomb Raider, they were always going to make more as Phil Rogers announced back in 2013 http://na.square-enix.com/us/blog/note-phil-rogers-ceo.

It is simply a case of them wanting to have their cake and eat it. You don't see them selling off their Japanese franchises to the highest bidder and that's because they respect them, they called Tomb Raider a failure (though they changed their tune eventually) despite selling what other franchise can only dream of, no sane person looks at those numbers and sees failure.

The parallels between AOD and RISE are there, new generation Tomb Raider trying to reinvent itself for an expanded audience, deadline set by an external party, publishing company that doesn't value the long term condition of the TR property putting the developer in a difficult situation so they can cash in here and now.

After Rise a deal like this is only going to progress to more restrictive ones in the future if it is deemed a success. The reboot was all about expanding the audience and it did just that so it is somewhat ironic to then say to that audience we are not walking away from you as you are our lifeblood please vote us best of show at gamescom, buy our comics and novel oh and you still have the top down arcade game so go buy that. What do all the biggest money makers have in common? They are multi-platform just as Tomb Raider has been for the betterpart of the past 2 decades.

Metalrocks
11th Feb 2015, 00:57
also the other concern that could come out of it that it ends up as a sloppy port like AC unity, since they try to get it done by christmas. and if so, then all the negativity will hurt sales and then SE will either drop the project all together since they claimed that 2013 version was a failure or they force CD to release the game asap for the other platforms to ascend sales and end up with a even worse port.

but i really hope this wont be the case at all and turns out just to be a paranoia.

Tihocan
11th Feb 2015, 03:21
I know from a PR standpoint it isn't to the series benefit, TR has never been put in such a negative light by the media and general public. Look on facebook, tumblr, gameinformer, tomb raider forums and this very forum and there is more negativity surrounding this release than there has ever been.
I think there's also a greatly disproportionate number of people who actually care now.


Xbox has been in the game for 13 years and in all that time they didn't have the capability to develop a new ip? Their first party line-up is so empty compared to Nintendo and Sony.
What!?
You compare Microsoft's first party line-up to Nintendo?! The same Nintendo who publishes Mario, Pokemon, Monster Hunter... hang on, I'll think of some more in a minute... no, no I can't.
Microsoft has Gears of War, Mass Effect, Halo, Fable, Forza, PGR... do I need to keep going?

Nintendo literally survived as a games company because of Pokemon. In fact, if they didn't release Pokemon... whatever the heck it was (Black/White, X/Y, $colour/$countercolour?)... they would have crumbled into further multimillion dollar losses this year.


Heck their biggest series and success wasn't even theirs, Halo was a mac game that they pilfered exclusively for Xbox before it could be released.
They bought Bungie - Bungie became a part of MS. If they didn't, the game would have been a joke.


TR and Uncharted at their core are fundamentally different, TR invented a genre while Uncharted was a derivative copy cat 3rd person cover shooter dressed up with good acting. TR focus is on traversal, puzzle solving, exploration while Uncharted's focus is on handholding, roller-coaster set pieces, linearity and shooting endless enemies. Finally Tomb raider is a cultural icon, it has the most recognisable female protagonist in all of gaming with a heritage so great that is known by even people who don't play videogames, Uncharted does not have that kind of cultural cache.
Do you have proof of it being a "derivative copycat"? The only similarity is that Drake hunts ancient stuff. Game mechanics, characters, setting, focus is all different, so how can it be a copycat.
In fact, if you want to get down to it, TR2013 is more likely a copycat of Uncharted - yes?
Most people started to recognise Lara as that "female adventurer in that game that was really bad and she never quite recovered". Legend and Underworld were not known by any means for being fantastic, groundbreaking, or even non-linear.


... deadline set by an external party, publishing company that doesn't value the long term condition of the TR property putting the developer in a difficult situation so they can cash in here and now.
Which is, generally, not much different that most other development studios - software or otherwise.

Larafan1996
11th Feb 2015, 07:47
Seeing as it's the majority that are being ignored they most likely still do care http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=209009&page=43
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/04/this-isnt-a-post-about-rise-of-the-tomb-raider/
http://tombraider.tumblr.com/post/94529480860/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-update

Doesn't look like a joke to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrme9yWens

Yes I compare their first party line up, not the third party that they pay to do things exclusively for them.

Epic created and developed Gears of War Microsoft merely paid for exclusivity (and at the very end ip)
Mass effect is an EA game, a multplatform one
Halo's creators Bungie left Microsoft after having to churn out Halo for years on end
Fable has turned into some 4 player co-op nonsense completely removed from its origins in Peter Molyneux's absence
Forza is great however its birth effectively killed PGR and it's creator Bizarre Creations

My point regarding the Xbox first party creations is you won't see something as innovative/risky as Shadow of the Colossus being built at Microsoft or something as polished mechanically & artistically as Mario Galaxy (maybe if they didn't squander Rare forcing them to make awful motion games they could have by now), if you do see something unique being created it will likely be by a developer outside of Xbox such as Epic, Crytek, Remedy or here Crystal Dynamics.

Uncharted absolutely is derivative but not of Tomb Raider, I meant of the influx of waist high box simulators pioneered by Killswitch that became so popular on 360 & ps3. Most AAA games the past generation, walk into an area with suspiciously waist high objects all over the room, fight wave after wave of enemies then repeat.

"Most people" who started gaming around the time the ps3, 360 & wii came out perhaps, anyone who saw the transition from 2d to 3d and Core to Crystal I doubt would agree. Toby Gard's Tomb raider changed what games were, there was nothing like it or it's protagonist at the time, a real innovator. The LAU series provided unique games too, true to their legacy (though undeniably much more simplistic than their predecessors they were leagues ahead of anything else) in a industry full of homogenization they put platforming/puzzles and exploration first.

Regarding the reboot though yes your right, Lara killed more enemies on Yamatai than all the other games put together and the closest thing to actual TR content was relegated to those 1 room "secret" tombs. The series switched genres chasing after the wider audience and sadly lost it's identity in the transition.

Tihocan
11th Feb 2015, 09:03
Seeing as it's the majority that are being ignored they most likely still do care http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=209009&page=43
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/04/this-isnt-a-post-about-rise-of-the-tomb-raider/
http://tombraider.tumblr.com/post/94529480860/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-update
Oh I agree with all that - this exclusivity is a horrible idea.



Doesn't look like a joke to me
Maybe the five people who owned a mac for gaming would have bought it. :P
It was going to be another team v team shooter.


Yes I compare their first party line up, not the third party that they pay to do things exclusively for them.
That's fair.
MS and Sony don't develop their own games - they publish them. At a stretch, you could argue that Sony does as it owns some of the studios it publishes for. Still, their games are developed by a third party whether it be Naughty Dog or such. Nintendo is a games company.

Simply put, it's how these companies make their money. They provide the platform and tools, and in some cases the backing, to put games on there.


Uncharted absolutely is derivative but not of Tomb Raider, I meant of the influx of waist high box simulators pioneered by Killswitch that became so popular on 360 & ps3. Most AAA games the past generation, walk into an area with suspiciously waist high objects all over the room, fight wave after wave of enemies then repeat.
Oh right, I misinterpreted. Most games are derivative of something else. The more are made, the harder it is to come up with an original idea.


"Most people" who started gaming around the time the ps3, 360 & wii came out perhaps, anyone who saw the transition from 2d to 3d and Core to Crystal I doubt would agree. Toby Gard's Tomb raider changed what games were, there was nothing like it or it's protagonist at at the time, a real innovator. The LAU series provided unique games too, true to their legacy (though undeniably much more simplistic than their predecessors they were leagues ahead of anything else) in a industry full of homogenization they put platforming/puzzles and exploration first.

Up until TR4 I would agree with you. Anyone who entered the realm at the Anniversary stage probably thought they were fun. Perhaps I'm being too critical of them - but I felt that they lacked any kind of deep consideration regarding story or puzzles.
For example, I actually got excited when she went diving down to the underwater caverns only to find the usual "find the thing, put it in the thing, the other thing opens".


Regarding the reboot though yes your right, Lara killed more enemies on Yamatai than all the other games put together and the closest thing to actual TR content was relegated to those 1 room "secret" tombs. The series switched genres chasing after the wider audience and sadly lost it's identity in the transition.

Looking forward to the future.

NSW_pride
12th Feb 2015, 04:56
Truth is I'm more exited for Uncharted 4 than ROTTR TBH. I haven't even bought Temple of Osiris yet, that's how insulted I feel.

BlueSkiesXXV
12th Feb 2015, 09:53
Truth is I'm more exited for Uncharted 4 than ROTTR TBH. I haven't even bought Temple of Osiris yet, that's how insulted I feel.

Uncharted 4 will rule all and does make up for the lack of TR. I also skipped The Guardian Of Light sequel.
There will not be any talk of U4 coming out on last gen tech (check out the tech demos). Naughty Dog have really moved to the top of the games industry.

Blacktron
12th Feb 2015, 11:36
The question whether Tomb Raider and Uncharted are similar or different is like the question whether a cat and a dog are similar or different: they are different, but have many similarities. It depends on what you compare it to. I would say that in overall style there is no game that Tomb Raider or Uncharted are more similar to than to eachother.

At first, I wasn't planning on buying U4: since I found Uncharted to be average at best, but since Microsoft felt the need to bring this console APARTHEID into my life, I guess I might as well join my Playstation brothers in the Uncharted 4 township. Also because U4 has got jungle.

Tihocan
12th Feb 2015, 12:06
I would say that in overall style there is no game that Tomb Raider or Uncharted are more similar to than to eachother.

At first, I wasn't planning on buying U4: since I found Uncharted to be average at best, but since Microsoft felt the need to bring this console APARTHEID into my life, I guess I might as well join my Playstation brothers in the Uncharted 4 township. Also because U4 has got jungle.

I basically bought a PS3 for Uncharted and Metal Gear. I'll probably buy an XBoxOne when TR is imminent - I have a bunch of games out of the Games with Gold so I'll have a library right off the bat.
I haven't seen anything on either platform that has given me a reason to care yet. TR will be on both (eventually), The Division will be on both. Uncharted looks good but is it $500 good?

Apartheid is a bit of a strong word for this. Extreme favouritism might be more accurate.

AdeleDazeem
12th Feb 2015, 12:27
I loved Tomb Raider, so I tried Uncharted. Now I love both. Like Blacktron said, they're similar but far from the same. But it's fair that people compare them to eachother. M$ turned it into ' Uncharted 4 versus Rise' anyway. Which smashed my hoping for a non-canon spinoff with Lara and Drake. (As partners, not lovers. Just so we don't get that mixed up)

Tihocan
12th Feb 2015, 12:43
... a non-canon spinoff with Lara and Drake. (As partners, not lovers. Just so we don't get that mixed up)

If only. They would the two most chemistry-perfect opposing characters to join forces in a game ever. Nate would barely scrape through it all without a climbing axe in the skull!

Blacktron
12th Feb 2015, 13:25
From my point of view Crystal Dynamics have already created a better rival/partner to Lara: Carter Bell. A funnier character with better dialogue than Drake in my humble opinion.

Metalrocks
12th Feb 2015, 13:41
From my point of view Crystal Dynamics have already created a better rival/partner to Lara: Carter Bell. A funnier character with better dialogue than Drake in my humble opinion.

never heard of him. what game?

AdeleDazeem
12th Feb 2015, 13:42
If only. They would the two most chemistry-perfect opposing characters to join forces in a game ever. Nate would barely scrape through it all without a climbing axe in the skull!

Ever played Dark Void? It's as close as you will get to the same chemistry. :)

Steel_Wing
12th Feb 2015, 14:54
I basically bought a PS3 for Uncharted and Metal Gear. I'll probably buy an XBoxOne when TR is imminent - I have a bunch of games out of the Games with Gold so I'll have a library right off the bat.
I haven't seen anything on either platform that has given me a reason to care yet. TR will be on both (eventually), The Division will be on both. Uncharted looks good but is it $500 good?

Apartheid is a bit of a strong word for this. Extreme favouritism might be more accurate.

There are very few games on next gen that impress me so much and TR is probably the most important game series for me with the next gen.... and that is why I go PS4. I don't want our series controlled by a company that is so willing to make money out of bringing vast numbers of TR players misery and that even includes their own PC gamers. There may be other games on each platform to sway either way but if it is TR that counts most then I would recommend PS4 as the better choice.

I am not bothered much by Uncharted but I might buy a copy of Uncharted 4 instead of any ROTTR DLC's as a protest against Darrel.

Blacktron
12th Feb 2015, 16:29
never heard of him. what game?

That game that you stubbornly refuse to play Big M! :D

Driber
12th Feb 2015, 23:23
What!?
You compare Microsoft's first party line-up to Nintendo?! The same Nintendo who publishes Mario, Pokemon, Monster Hunter... hang on, I'll think of some more in a minute... no, no I can't.
Microsoft has Gears of War, Mass Effect, Halo, Fable, Forza, PGR... do I need to keep going?

I've never heard such ignorance in my life. Nintendo is the king of original franchises. MS is nothing in comparison.


Nintendo literally survived as a games company because of Pokemon. In fact, if they didn't release Pokemon... whatever the heck it was (Black/White, X/Y, $colour/$countercolour?)... they would have crumbled into further multimillion dollar losses this year.

Speculation.


Do you have proof of it being a "derivative copycat"? The only similarity is that Drake hunts ancient stuff. Game mechanics, characters, setting, focus is all different, so how can it be a copycat.

C'mon now, ND is essentially Lara Croft with a sixpack instead of boobs :p


In fact, if you want to get down to it, TR2013 is more likely a copycat of Uncharted - yes?

In some ways, sure.

Though it's pretty damn hilarious whenever I see an UC fan going "TR copied UC!!!" and not realizing the irony of what he's complaining about. That would be like a TR fan *****ing about the new Indiana Jones movie being a copycat of TR :lol:


Most people started to recognise Lara as that "female adventurer in that game that was really bad and she never quite recovered". Legend and Underworld were not known by any means for being fantastic, groundbreaking, or even non-linear.

Larafan1996 was correct when he said that Lara is a huge cultural icon; many people outside of the gaming community know who Lara is; that's how strong her name recognition is. Mr. Drake on the other hand will mostly get "who the hell is that?" from people :whistle:


At first, I wasn't planning on buying U4: since I found Uncharted to be average at best, but since Microsoft felt the need to bring this console APARTHEID into my life, I guess I might as well join my Playstation brothers in the Uncharted 4 township. Also because U4 has got jungle.

Wow, did you really just equate something truly awful like apartheid with something as mundane as a videogame console deal that literally hurts no one in real life :eek:

Metalrocks
13th Feb 2015, 01:23
That game that you stubbornly refuse to play Big M! :D

barbie horse adventure? :p

oh, you mean the latest TR title temple of osiris. yes, i will not play it since the last one was no fun for me.

AdeleDazeem
13th Feb 2015, 09:24
oh, you mean the latest TR title temple of osiris. yes, i will not play it since the last one was no fun for me. [/COLOR]

He's right though. Carter was a very cool character though.

C- ''Croft..?''
L - ''Whatever it was that you wanted to ask me, the answer... is no''

Unfortunately you don't hear him a whole lot when you're an offline single player like me.

Blacktron
13th Feb 2015, 10:51
barbie horse adventure? :p

oh, you mean the latest TR title temple of osiris. yes, i will not play it since the last one was no fun for me.

No, I did mean Barbie Horse Adventure... Oh wait no I don't.:D


He's right though. Carter was a very cool character though.

C- ''Croft..?''
L - ''Whatever it was that you wanted to ask me, the answer... is no''

Unfortunately you don't hear him a whole lot when you're an offline single player like me.
Yes indeed. I have played it online but it's a little bit of a shame that you are dependant on at least two others to hear all of Carters dialogue. I still haven't heard all of it.

Metalrocks
13th Feb 2015, 15:00
No, I did mean Barbie Horse Adventure... Oh wait no I don't.:D


Yes indeed. I have played it online but it's a little bit of a shame that you are dependant on at least two others to hear all of Carters dialogue. I still haven't heard all of it.

:lol:
thanks for the humor. good addition for my birthday :)

Blacktron
13th Feb 2015, 15:54
You're welcome :)

Charlie_T_Raider
14th Feb 2015, 12:44
It's a really rotten situation (made worse by the pretending nothing is happening so just go buy temple of osiris attitude), well as a Tomb Raider fan the Rise stuff all looks lovely. But who knows what great deals are instore for us next?

It's not just the 3 month delay though. We support the brand for years and then MS come in then we don't even matter to Crystal anymore (or to Darrell at least). This guy thinks he can act hideousely to us and then we are so daft to still buy LCTOO. I think most gamers want to see multiplatforms not being taken over and CD/SE choice is not good for multiplatform series in general.

Bridgetkfisher
14th Feb 2015, 12:49
no, you are not alone. as much i like seeing and hearing new things about it, knowing in my back of my head thats crapcox only for who knows how long, i just cant this spark of excitement.

People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost. Keep in mind, that a huge chunk of the TR2013 budget went into trying to make it a COD killer which didnt happen, mismanagement like that financially is why they need ALOT of money to make these games since most of it is wasted on features that are poorly made or unwanted like all that camera wobble and lens flare in the game, or how every 5 seconds it seems there is some kind of cinematic, just let us play the game, is it that hard?

a_big_house
14th Feb 2015, 12:56
People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost...

*switches on Driber mode*

Where's your proof of that? That's just pure speculation.

:D

Charlie_T_Raider
14th Feb 2015, 12:57
People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost. Keep in mind, that a huge chunk of the TR2013 budget went into trying to make it a COD killer which didnt happen, mismanagement like that financially is why they need ALOT of money to make these games since most of it is wasted on features that are poorly made or unwanted like all that camera wobble and lens flare in the game, or how every 5 seconds it seems there is some kind of cinematic, just let us play the game, is it that hard?

Our series has survived nearly 20 years. Lara is so iconic there will always be a developer out there to make TR whatever happens if that is Crystal or not. If they waste a load of money on bad development moves that get dropped then that is their problem and it is not the fans who should pay the price for that. I hope enough of a negative fuss is created that MS won't put more money in next time and that I would be more greatful to them for. Anyone who want to make TR worse for the majority is not a 'friend'.

It doesn't take a genius to work out going all COD direction would be a daft move for TR. They already went too far on combat as it was that everyone say more puzzles please in feedback.

Metalrocks
14th Feb 2015, 13:59
People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost. Keep in mind, that a huge chunk of the TR2013 budget went into trying to make it a COD killer which didnt happen, mismanagement like that financially is why they need ALOT of money to make these games since most of it is wasted on features that are poorly made or unwanted like all that camera wobble and lens flare in the game, or how every 5 seconds it seems there is some kind of cinematic, just let us play the game, is it that hard?

cant agree with any of this. also, what ABH said.

Blacktron
14th Feb 2015, 14:12
cant agree with any of this.
Well... I did find the shaky cam a little annoying at times.

But I highly doubt that there would have been no TR10 if it wasn't for this deal. Maybe it would have been a less ambitious one though; let's hope that pays off in the long run.

Metalrocks
14th Feb 2015, 14:49
Well... I did find the shaky cam a little annoying at times.

But I highly doubt that there would have been no TR10 if it wasn't for this deal. Maybe it would have been a less ambitious one though; let's hope that pays off in the long run.

the only place i can recall the camera shake was running on the bridge that was falling apart. but i can understand people who dont like it.

Bridgetkfisher
14th Feb 2015, 16:53
Well... I did find the shaky cam a little annoying at times.

But I highly doubt that there would have been no TR10 if it wasn't for this deal. Maybe it would have been a less ambitious one though; let's hope that pays off in the long run.

Im hoping it pays off in the long run as well, since this is just another origin story, im hoping since it got funded this means the next game will be a tomb raider game with tombs and less of the anti gun propaganda in the TR2013 one since they refused to let her use two handguns like all the other TR games, probably why it didnt sell well because none of her iconic trademarks are present since the branding was destroyed with the character replacement but hmm she does still have the name, but thats about it? Maybe this is like the batman trilogy where the origin story will take 3 games? Which is why it needed to be funded since noone wants those games?

Murphdawg1
14th Feb 2015, 16:59
Im hoping it pays off in the long run as well, since this is just another origin story, im hoping since it got funded this means the next game will be a tomb raider game with tombs and less of the anti gun propaganda in the TR2013 one since they refused to let her use two handguns like all the other TR games, probably why it didnt sell well because none of her iconic trademarks are present since the branding was destroyed with the character replacement but hmm she does still have the name, but thats about it? Maybe this is like the batman trilogy where the origin story will take 3 games? Which is why it needed to be funded since noone wants those games?

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?

IvanaKC
14th Feb 2015, 18:43
Im hoping it pays off in the long run as well, since this is just another origin story, im hoping since it got funded this means the next game will be a tomb raider game with tombs and less of the anti gun propaganda in the TR2013 one since they refused to let her use two handguns like all the other TR games, probably why it didnt sell well because none of her iconic trademarks are present since the branding was destroyed with the character replacement but hmm she does still have the name, but thats about it? Maybe this is like the batman trilogy where the origin story will take 3 games? Which is why it needed to be funded since noone wants those games?


Many of her trademarks were not in game, but dude, only Square says it didn't sell well. It attracted new customers, that was the goal. How did you conclude that no one wants TR games? By now, more than 6 million copies were sold.

Tihocan
14th Feb 2015, 19:31
*switches on Driber mode*

Where's your proof of that? That's just pure speculation.

:D

Lol, I think this is becoming a thing.

a_big_house
14th Feb 2015, 19:36
Lol, I think this is becoming a thing.

Well I started it :lol:

Error96_
14th Feb 2015, 20:10
People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost. Keep in mind, that a huge chunk of the TR2013 budget went into trying to make it a COD killer which didnt happen, mismanagement like that financially is why they need ALOT of money to make these games since most of it is wasted on features that are poorly made or unwanted like all that camera wobble and lens flare in the game, or how every 5 seconds it seems there is some kind of cinematic, just let us play the game, is it that hard?

Some gamers these days say they are fed up with games and the main reason is the first person shooter. They seem to be very popular titles but they are everywhere and are all just the same. I find them so uninspiring and that is why TR should be different from them to give something fresh to the world of gaming. In 96 TR set a landmark with a really strong lead female and it should move to become generic shooter. It's a shame if CD or SE put their efforts towards going a shooter direction as this is not the way where TR is best suited. The success of Uncharted within the genre TR really created shows this is more they should stay.

With the cinematic I am mixed. The first section of the game was great but I don't like when you reach a boss battle and it goes all automated or when you get killed or when the most difficult part of the game is reaction time pushing a button which has no logic to the rest of the gameplay. There was a pacing problem too in that it rushed you on with these sequences so I feel they are good but shouldn't be used too much.


Im hoping it pays off in the long run as well, since this is just another origin story, im hoping since it got funded this means the next game will be a tomb raider game with tombs and less of the anti gun propaganda in the TR2013 one since they refused to let her use two handguns like all the other TR games, probably why it didnt sell well because none of her iconic trademarks are present since the branding was destroyed with the character replacement but hmm she does still have the name, but thats about it? Maybe this is like the batman trilogy where the origin story will take 3 games? Which is why it needed to be funded since noone wants those games?

I have played the series since the start and I found Underworld a bit lacking so they did need to change something in a big way. I believe being bold was good but I agree they lost too much of the character's signatures in the process (and few have posted as much about that as me). The pistols thing I don't think is so bad as she used them both at the end and probably will at some point wield 2 weapons in ROTTR. That was a narrative choice so we would say wow at that point in the story. For me the Manor, Lara's body shape, her edgy fashion style (inc classic outfit) and her sharp witty attitude are what I miss. Maybe some of the signatures will come back though as she grows towards the 'Tomb Raider' and in face structure she looks more like Lara again for this game than TR2013.

Other than the block of the exclusivity deal I really want to play ROTTR and the anger over it just shows actually how many TR fans DO want these games.

AlexWeiss
14th Feb 2015, 23:44
People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost. Keep in mind, that a huge chunk of the TR2013 budget went into trying to make it a COD killer which didnt happen, mismanagement like that financially is why they need ALOT of money to make these games since most of it is wasted on features that are poorly made or unwanted like all that camera wobble and lens flare in the game, or how every 5 seconds it seems there is some kind of cinematic, just let us play the game, is it that hard?

I know, TR2013 was SO undersold, I mean 7 million copies is such a small amount. Selling over a million in 48 hours is extremely low. *sarcasm detector short circuits from such high measures*

The only people saying it undersold was Sqaure because they wanted 5-6 million sold in a 30 day period, which is extremely unrealistic considering the franchise was practically dead before, most of the people buying were loyal fans at that point. But in the end, it achieved profitability, and how does limiting a game to one console (technically two) help sell more copies at all?

I'm not even going to comment on your second message. Everyone else is on point.

Metalrocks
15th Feb 2015, 13:43
sorry bridgetkfish, but as the others have pointed out: your debuts seem to be grabbed out of thin air.
if M$ wants to sponsor the next title, thats all fine, (and i hope you read it and understand why we have a problem with this deal) we are upset that its only available for the not so successful sold xbox on day 1 for everyone to be played.
as alex weiss stated; SE expected to be sold very well and cried out like a little spoiled kid for being a failure.
M$ must have given them a lot of money that SE only the the dollar signs in their eyes and forgot or ignored the statistics how the game sold generally on the xbox or how it will or affect the game in the future.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
15th Feb 2015, 17:27
It's not that we are upset that MS wants to invest more money in series more that the money comes with a big 'price' attached to it which denies many of those who care most about the series the chance to play this game on day 1 or possibly at all if we go by what Crystal have said so far. The stats of the last game show PS/PC to account for over 60% of the sales so it certainly isn't a small percentage of fans that get the negatives from this deal.

Tecstar70
15th Feb 2015, 20:14
It's not that we are upset that MS wants to invest more money in series more that the money comes with a big 'price' attached to it which denies many of those who care most about the series the chance to play this game on day 1 or possibly at all if we go by what Crystal have said so far. The stats of the last game show PS/PC to account for over 60% of the sales so it certainly isn't a small percentage of fans that get the negatives from this deal.

Hence another good reason why it will be released on other platforms!

Chaugmar
18th Feb 2015, 19:31
Hence another good reason why it will be released on other platforms!

It just has to be. I hope they don't go too long that we forget about it before then.

DamianGraham
19th Feb 2015, 00:06
It's not just the 3 month delay though. We support the brand for years and then MS come in then we don't even matter to Crystal anymore (or to Darrell at least). This guy thinks he can act hideousely to us and then we are so daft to still buy LCTOO. I think most gamers want to see multiplatforms not being taken over and CD/SE choice is not good for multiplatform series in general.

I was seriously pissed about that too, how he just kinda threw it in like "Oh here, you can still play this spin-off thing... But today had me thinking, I wonder if they released it to Sony to test the waters and see how many people would actually play it- maybe the profit from that will be used by Square Enix to publish to Sony with... If they don't I think I will have a rage induced brain aneurism.

I say it often- keep the demand for a PS release alive and well, because the second fans go quiet about it- they get swept under the rug even further and forgotten about. I wish Square Enix had a venue to reach them, they're so impersonal to fans it's sickening. Must be the culture or something.

Phasetastic
24th Feb 2015, 14:41
It is very frustrating the way CD handle it and not tell anyone if this come to PC (and PS) or not. I would buy day 1 if it came to PC but no idea when our day is going to be.

AlexWeiss
24th Feb 2015, 22:14
It's not like they're just doing it to have a laugh. They can't talk about the deal, that's to MS to decide what they can say as of right now.

Driber
25th Feb 2015, 10:13
People should be happy its on XBone the last TR did so badly this game woulda never got made if not for M$ paying so much of the development cost.

Here you go - "[Darrell] Gallagher also says that [..] Rise of the Tomb Raider would exist without Microsoft"

source (http://www.siliconera.com/2015/02/24/square-enix-talks-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-exclusivity-sales-and-more/)

Now you and others can stop posting this nonsense :p


as alex weiss stated; SE expected to be sold very well and cried out like a little spoiled kid for being a failure.

I haven't read Alex' post, but if that is what she posted, then you are both wrong. That didn't happen.

dayoum
25th Feb 2015, 12:41
So many of you are such optimists... I'm seriously impressed, but I wouldn't cross my fingers for PS release so hard. PC may get the game in a couple of years (like in 2017 or even 2020, depending how much money they would get after xbox release and how long randering will take), but it's not for sure either and even if it'll come out in the future, it may be exclusive for win10. Why am I such a pessimist here? Simple:
1) xbox exclusive won't sell out greatly. If they hit 1 milion sales mark, it'll be a success
2) 1 milion sales = no money since the production budget took more money than the game sales will bring them
3) if there's no money, how will they pay for randering the game to other platforms?
4) (more important than 3) it was said SE/CD wants to work with M$ in the future and we all know how M$ works - they want exclusive, they'll get one. They might've not bought the game, but it was said that if they could decide, they'd make it ONLY for xbox
5) the xbox magazine already calls Lara their new face
6) even tho it was stated by M$ that the exclusive is timed and they're not the ones who should be asked about the game coming out on other platforms, SE/CD are ditching the question every time and talk about their great friendship and partnership with M$
7) nobody is working on releasing ROTTR for other platforms. It was said they work hard to release it on xbox one (different studio takes care for xbox360 since SE/CD have no time to do it)

The game looks awesome and it would be great to play it, but I'm a fan since 1996 and I feel betrayed, slapped in the face and like I was shown a middle finger by all M$, SE and CD by not releasing this game for everyone at the same time and for not confirming if the game will come out on PC/PS soon after its release on xbox. The original series became famous thanks to PC and PS but nobody cares about it anymore. It ruins my mood and I'm not really waiting for this game anymore. I'm not excited. When/if it comes out on PC (and PS), great, but it'll still taste bitter and I'm not going to buy it on day 1 for full price, that's for sure.

Driber
25th Feb 2015, 13:17
So many of you are such optimists...I'm seriously impressed

Well then allow me to counter some of your points with some more optimism :D


PC may get the game in a couple of years (like in 2017 or even 2020, depending how much money they would get after xbox release and how long randering will take), but it's not for sure either and even if it'll come out in the future, it may be exclusive for win10.

A PC release in 2020 is very unlikely. If a PC version is in the works, the best would be to release it no later than a year after XB release, or else all the hype will be gone. Plus, another TR game may be released before 2020, making a previous game even less attractive to buy.


1) xbox exclusive won't sell out greatly. If they hit 1 milion sales mark, it'll be a success

And you know this, how...?


2) 1 milion sales = no money since the production budget took more money than the game sales will bring them

That's a false equivalence. You don't know how big SE's production budget is for TR10 and how much money MS is pumping in.


3) if there's no money, how will they pay for randering the game to other platforms?

See my response to 2) regarding that "if" part.

As for how SE might get the money - TR isn't their only franchise. They make billions. Budgets can be moved around.


4) (more important than 3) it was said SE/CD wants to work with M$ in the future and we all know how M$ works - they want exclusive, they'll get one. They might've not bought the game, but it was said that if they could decide, they'd make it ONLY for xbox

Right, if they could decide. But they can't.


6) even tho it was stated by M$ that the exclusive is timed and they're not the ones who should be asked about the game coming out on other platforms, SE/CD are ditching the question every time and talk about their great friendship and partnership with M$

Which would make sense if they plan on a reveal regarding other platforms after holiday 2015.


7) nobody is working on releasing ROTTR for other platforms. It was said they work hard to release it on xbox one (different studio takes care for xbox360 since SE/CD have no time to do it)

How do you know nobody is working on releasing TR10 for other platforms? They could be and just not telling you.

dayoum
25th Feb 2015, 14:00
And you know this, how...?
I've read about it about a year ago that TR 2013 sales on xbox360 were horrible. PC and PS releases were sold over 3 times better than xbox.


That's a false equivalence. You don't know how big SE's production budget is for TR10 and how much money MS is pumping in.
See my response to 2) regarding that "if" part.

As for how SE might get the money - TR isn't their only franchise. They make billions. Budgets can be moved around.
If the game can't earn money, they won't continue it. Or they will, but only if M$ will give them money and make another deal - permanent exclusive.


Right, if they could decide. But they can't.
The thing is SE/CD want to work with M$ in the future. When M$ said IF they could decide, they'd make it only for xbox gives a hint that IF SE/CD wants to work with them in the future, they might consider making it permanent exclusive.


Which would make sense if they plan on a reveal regarding other platforms after holiday 2015.
It doesn't make sense at all. They could confirm if the game is coming out on other platforms long time ago, but they're not doing it and I don't think it's because of the deal of "timed exclusive". The thing is - those who want to play it on xb will buy it anyway so why wait? M$ opened the door for them to talk about it, but they never went through it, meaning, they might be considering making ROTTR only for xbox (so they could work nicely with their new best $friends).


How do you know nobody is working on releasing TR10 for other platforms? They could be and just not telling you.
If they say over and over again that they're working hard to deliver the game for xbox one and the other studio is working on xbox360 because they're too invested into xbox one and the whole new engine takes all their work time, it means they're not working on releasing it on other platforms at the moment. Plus, constant ditching the question "WILL the game come out on PC/PS?" It's not that hard to answer one, simple question, right? They don't need to give a date, just confirm if it is coming out or not.

A PC release in 2020 is very unlikely. If a PC version is in the works, the best would be to release it no later than a year after XB release, or else all the hype will be gone. Plus, another TR game may be released before 2020, making a previous game even less attractive to buy.
It's doubtful if nobody is working on releasing this game on other platforms right now? That's why it may stay exclusive for xbox only forever. And since randering takes time (and moneeeeyyyy) and they'd want to work on another game, which would take all of their time, just like ROTTR, how can you see it being released on PC in a year after it's release on xbox? I can't. And even if, a year is a long time. People will watch a lot of Let's Play's and cut scenese and they'd be like - nah, not gonna buy it, saw everything already. This whole deal will cause more harm than good in a long run. Less money means more partnership with M$, means more M$'s decisions, means taking over the game and making TR xbox's Uncharted with high hopes that fans will buy xbox to play their fav game.

Metalrocks
25th Feb 2015, 14:05
Here you go - "[Darrell]


I haven't read Alex' post, but if that is what she posted, then you are [B]both wrong. That didn't happen.

so SE didnt complain at all calling TR a failure because of the sales? then the article which were posted are all wrong.

Tecstar70
25th Feb 2015, 14:41
So many of you are such optimists... I'm seriously impressed, but I wouldn't cross my fingers for PS release so hard. PC may get the game in a couple of years (like in 2017 or even 2020, depending how much money they would get after xbox release and how long randering will take), but it's not for sure either and even if it'll come out in the future, it may be exclusive for win10. Why am I such a pessimist here? Simple:
1) xbox exclusive won't sell out greatly. If they hit 1 milion sales mark, it'll be a success
2) 1 milion sales = no money since the production budget took more money than the game sales will bring them
3) if there's no money, how will they pay for randering the game to other platforms?
4) (more important than 3) it was said SE/CD wants to work with M$ in the future and we all know how M$ works - they want exclusive, they'll get one. They might've not bought the game, but it was said that if they could decide, they'd make it ONLY for xbox
5) the xbox magazine already calls Lara their new face
6) even tho it was stated by M$ that the exclusive is timed and they're not the ones who should be asked about the game coming out on other platforms, SE/CD are ditching the question every time and talk about their great friendship and partnership with M$
7) nobody is working on releasing ROTTR for other platforms. It was said they work hard to release it on xbox one (different studio takes care for xbox360 since SE/CD have no time to do it)

The game looks awesome and it would be great to play it, but I'm a fan since 1996 and I feel betrayed, slapped in the face and like I was shown a middle finger by all M$, SE and CD by not releasing this game for everyone at the same time and for not confirming if the game will come out on PC/PS soon after its release on xbox. The original series became famous thanks to PC and PS but nobody cares about it anymore. It ruins my mood and I'm not really waiting for this game anymore. I'm not excited. When/if it comes out on PC (and PS), great, but it'll still taste bitter and I'm not going to buy it on day 1 for full price, that's for sure.

I am one of these optimists! Rather than repeat what I have said in numerous other posts and debated with other members that counters several of your arguments as a starting point look through this thread: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=146569

To summarise, there are very good reasons why it will be out on all platforms in early 2016 (IMO).

MS want to sell Xboxes, SE want to raise its profile on the Xbox - that's pretty much the deal in a nutshell.
SE still want to sell to other platforms and will!

I'm gonna stop there. Everything else I would say I have already said! :D

dayoum
25th Feb 2015, 16:57
I've seen this topic (even wrote a post there) and still... I'd rather be pessimist and get surprised (even if it'll come out on other platforms I doubt it'll be early on 2016) than have any hopes for it and get them crushed (been there, done that). A couple of my friends, who also support TR since 96 (and 98), already said they won't buy ROTTR. Their journey with TR has ended with TR 2013. They loved it, called it the best TR that was ever made, but when the deal was announced they said the industry stabbed them in the back so they won't support it anymore.

Tecstar70
25th Feb 2015, 17:04
I've seen this topic (even wrote a post there) and still... I'd rather be pessimist and get surprised (even if it'll come out on other platforms I doubt it'll be early on 2016) than have any hopes for it and get them crushed (been there, done that). A couple of my friends, who also support TR since 96 (and 98), already said they won't buy ROTTR. Their journey with TR has ended with TR 2013. They loved it, called it the best TR that was ever made, but when the deal was announced they said the industry stabbed them in the back so they won't support it anymore.

There's more reasons why it will come out that early than not.

I find your friends attitudes strange, almost cutting off their nose to spite their face, but that's up to them I suppose.

Driber
25th Feb 2015, 17:05
I've read about it about a year ago that TR 2013 sales on xbox360 were horrible. PC and PS releases were sold over 3 times better than xbox.

Over 3 times more? I find that hard to believe. Can you back up your claim with actual numbers?

Anyway, it's still speculation how TR10 is going to sell on XB1. It's a different time and situation with the MS deal, and with MS publishing the game for XB. So the numbers might pan out quite differently this time.


If the game can't earn money, they won't continue it.

Maybe, maybe not. But you still made a false equivalence by asserting that "1M sales = no money". Like I said, you don't know how big SE's production budget is for TR10 and how much money MS is pumping in. Maybe 1M sales on XB makes it profitable enough combined with a possible PC/PS release, or just on its own.


Or they will, but only if M$ will give them money and make another deal - permanent exclusive.

Doubt it.


The thing is SE/CD want to work with M$ in the future. When M$ said IF they could decide, they'd make it only for xbox gives a hint that IF SE/CD wants to work with them in the future, they might consider making it permanent exclusive.

You're reading too much into it if you consider those things "hints" for perm exclusive. No hints were given.


It doesn't make sense at all. They could confirm if the game is coming out on other platforms long time ago, but they're not doing it and I don't think it's because of the deal of "timed exclusive". The thing is - those who want to play it on xb will buy it anyway so why wait? M$ opened the door for them to talk about it, but they never went through it, meaning, they might be considering making ROTTR only for xbox (so they could work nicely with their new best $friends).

You failed to demonstrate how it doesn't make sense. If the deal with MS includes an agreement that CD is not to talk about releasing it on other platforms until a predetermined time because MS wants to encourage people to buy their hardware and build their brand, then everything CD said or didn't say so far makes sense within that scenario.


If they say over and over again that they're working hard to deliver the game for xbox one and the other studio is working on xbox360 because they're too invested into xbox one and the whole new engine takes all their work time, it means they're not working on releasing it on other platforms at the moment.

You're still making assumptions on what their PR talk means.

"We're focusing on delivering a great game on XB1" != "No work is being done for any other platform".


Plus, constant ditching the question "WILL the game come out on PC/PS?" It's not that hard to answer one, simple question, right? They don't need to give a date, just confirm if it is coming out or not.

Define "hard". If a contract prevents them from answering that question, then yes, it's indeed quite hard to answer it without getting a massive lawsuit on their arse.


It's doubtful if nobody is working on releasing this game on other platforms right now? That's why it may stay exclusive for xbox only forever. And since randering takes time (and moneeeeyyyy) and they'd want to work on another game, which would take all of their time, just like ROTTR, how can you see it being released on PC in a year after it's release on xbox? I can't.

Now you're just building assumptions from other assumptions. Sure, IF no work is being done on other platforms right now, then it might be less likely that they'll start working on it after TR10 release. But you don't know whether or not this is true, so you can't use that argument to make further assumptions. Well... I mean... you can, but then it's getting into the realms of grabbing things out of thin air, as Metalrocks mentioned to you earlier.


And even if, a year is a long time. People will watch a lot of Let's Play's and cut scenese and they'd be like - nah, not gonna buy it, saw everything already.

Right, which works in favor of my argument - CD will not likely wait for years with releasing the game on other platforms. It also works in favor of the idea that CD is already working on other platforms but simply not telling you ;)


This whole deal will cause more harm than good in a long run.

We'll see about that.


Less money means more partnership with M$

No it doesn't.


means more M$'s decisions

Nope.


means taking over the game and making TR xbox's Uncharted with high hopes that fans will buy xbox to play their fav game.

No, Sir.


so SE didnt complain at all calling TR a failure because of the sales?

That is correct, they didn't.


then the article which were posted are all wrong.

That is correct, many articles were wrong, we've already been over this.



Don't tell me you're still surprised about bad game journalism after the whole #gamergate debacle :p


I'd rather be pessimist and get surprised [..] than have any hopes for it and get them crushed

And that's completely understandable.


A couple of my friends, who also support TR since 96 (and 98), already said they won't buy ROTTR. Their journey with TR has ended with TR 2013. They loved it, called it the best TR that was ever made, but when the deal was announced they said the industry stabbed them in the back so they won't support it anymore.

I don't know who your friends are, but I hope they'll change their minds if/when CD announced PC/PS release dates, like others have done who declared to be "done" with the franchise but came around later on when the dust was settled :)

dayoum
25th Feb 2015, 18:04
You failed to demonstrate how it doesn't make sense. If the deal with MS includes an agreement that CD is not to talk about releasing it on other platforms until a predetermined time because MS wants to encourage people to buy their hardware and build their brand, then everything CD said or didn't say so far makes sense within that scenario.
“"When people want me to say, can you tell us when or if it's coming to other platforms, it's not my job," Spencer told Eurogamer. "My job is not to talk about games I don't own. I have a certain relationship on this version of Tomb Raider, which we announced, and I feel really good about our long term relationship with Crystal and Square.”

This leaves an open window for SE to say if (not "when") the game will come out on other platforms, but their answer was like this:

"Our friends at Microsoft have always seen huge potential in Tomb Raider and have believed in our vision since our first unveil with them on their stage at E3 2011," wrote Darrell Gallagher on the Tomb Raider tumblr. "We know they will get behind this game more than any support we have had from them in the past - we believe this will be a step to really forging the Tomb Raider brand as one of the biggest in gaming, with the help, belief and backing of a major partner like Microsoft."

source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-08-13-microsoft-confirms-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-xbox-exclusivity-deal-has-a-duration

About my friends - not everyone will forgive SE/CD for doing what they did. Me and a few other friends of mine will buy this game if it'll come out on PC, because we enjoyed TR2013 too much. But we're not really excited for this sequel and none of us will buy it during the first week or month after it gets released. One guy joked he could probably wait a whole year for sales and buy it for no more than 5$, but his kids would drive him crazy.

Error96_
25th Feb 2015, 22:58
"Our friends at Microsoft have always seen huge potential in Tomb Raider and have believed in our vision since our first unveil with them on their stage at E3 2011," wrote Darrell Gallagher on the Tomb Raider tumblr. "We know they will get behind this game more than any support we have had from them in the past - we believe this will be a step to really forging the Tomb Raider brand as one of the biggest in gaming, with the help, belief and backing of a major partner like Microsoft."

source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-08-13-microsoft-confirms-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-xbox-exclusivity-deal-has-a-duration

About my friends - not everyone will forgive SE/CD for doing what they did. Me and a few other friends of mine will buy this game if it'll come out on PC, because we enjoyed TR2013 too much. But we're not really excited for this sequel and none of us will buy it during the first week or month after it gets released. One guy joked he could probably wait a whole year for sales and buy it for no more than 5$, but his kids would drive him crazy.

I don't know about kids playing or watching ROTTR as it is an 18. Darrell Gallagher's views that he wants to forge a new TR brand by bulldozing over all who have cared about TR is not something that the fans want or is best for the TR brand. We want a better TR brand to be forged but that is not done by trashing the current fanbase. If Darrell's vision comes true the TR community lose but I believe not in stopping supporting TR but pushing for a better more inclusive vision.

TR is a fantastic brand and I know many at CD are doing a great job at making an amazing game and we don't want to see Darrell and others undermine that by making everyone so annoyed they don't even care about the game. Even if the game is great all eyes are going to be on the plans for release on the next title and what happens. I hope people will see this as a drive to get those policies dropped rather than turning their back on TR as a whole as Lara is so much bigger than that.


Over 3 times more? I find that hard to believe. Can you back up your claim with actual numbers?

I remember reading somewhere it was about half sales on PS, last thirties percent for Xbox, and in the early teens for PC. The 3 to 1 is consoles sales PS4 to Xbox one before the last quarter when Xbox made some gains but still miles behind.


You're reading too much into it if you consider those things "hints" for perm exclusive. No hints were given.

We would have thought this deal would never happen before. Now Darrel in his own words see MS as his friends anything possible. He show such disregard that while unlikely it's not practically impossible like before.


You're still making assumptions on what their PR talk means.

"We're focusing on delivering a great game on XB1" != "No work is being done for any other platform".

The quote is just designed to be an insulting answer towards us for MS benefit but I do believe that the PS will probably be being worked on and almost ready by the end of the year. They won't do the actual disk production though probably till later as per the deal.

WinterSoldierLTE
26th Feb 2015, 00:09
It doesn't make sense at all. They could confirm if the game is coming out on other platforms long time ago, but they're not doing it and I don't think it's because of the deal of "timed exclusive". The thing is - those who want to play it on xb will buy it anyway so why wait? M$ opened the door for them to talk about it, but they never went through it, meaning, they might be considering making ROTTR only for xbox (so they could work nicely with their new best $friends).

It makes perfect sense. Microsoft want to sell consoles. Microsoft gets game so that they can sell consoles. Microsoft won't sell as many copies of console and/or game if people know that if they wait another 6 months or however long said game will be available to purchase on the console(s) people already own. Microsoft knows this, so Microsoft tells CD & Sqaure: "Hey, if you wanna do this with our help, you gotta help us, so here's a 'hush hush' document for you to sign so we can actually get some serious sales for a bit'". And the shroud of secrecy is draped...

dayoum
26th Feb 2015, 01:59
I don't know about kids playing or watching ROTTR as it is an 18.
They're 16 and 17 and they're a part of the fandom since they were 10 and 11 ;)


It makes perfect sense. Microsoft want to sell consoles. Microsoft gets game so that they can sell consoles. Microsoft won't sell as many copies of console and/or game if people know that if they wait another 6 months or however long said game will be available to purchase on the console(s) people already own. Microsoft knows this, so Microsoft tells CD & Sqaure: "Hey, if you wanna do this with our help, you gotta help us, so here's a 'hush hush' document for you to sign so we can actually get some serious sales for a bit'". And the shroud of secrecy is draped...
Many of TR fans lives outside US and UE, or if they live in UE, they live in countries without EUR/GBP, where xbox is extremely expensive and can cost more than a full month salary while one game can cost like 3 electric bills. These fans will never buy xbone for just one game.

Now let's look at PC gamers and people who chose PS4 instead of xbone. They won't buy xbox for only one game too. PS4 gamers says they can't afford now it or aren't interested in buying a spy-console or they say xbone has worse graphic and they're not interested in playing TR on it. PC gamers are usually great on K+M, controller makes them sick (I'm one of those people), plus they enjoy the graphics, which are better than on any console (I'm once again one of those people). Some of those who could afford to buy xbox and even thought about it but didn't make a final decision yet, they say they won't do it now because the deal hurt them too deep. Yes, some people will still buy xbone, but those are mostly outside TR-fandom gamers, who'd buy it anyway to play other games and maybe, just maybe, they'll play ROTTR too. The fans, on the other hand, are pissed off and if the game will come out on PC/PS, lots of them will either buy it for half the price or even wait for the sales or they won't buy it at all because they feel betrayed. If the industry doesn't support the fans (who support them for years) equally, most of them won't take it nicely and will pay them back by not giving them as much money as they'd like to get.

Moves like this whole "deal" gives MS a bad promotion tbh. If they'd hire a studio to make them a very new game, exclusively for xbox platform, it would be fine. But BUYING exclusive for xbox for who knows how long when the game was multiplatform since the very beginning and releasing it pretty much on its 20th anniversary, is the worst kind of promotion they could make. I even saw a few xbone players who said they won't buy ROTTR until it comes out on all of the other platforms because they feel it's unfair and hurtful for other gamers. So if MS think this move will bring them lots of new customers, they're wrong. If anyone would confirm that this game will come out on other platforms, the amount of hate would be much smaller. It'd still be there, but at least, some fans would actually buy xbone to play ROTTR and support not MS per se, but SE/CD since day 1.

Tecstar70
26th Feb 2015, 07:03
They're 16 and 17 and they're a part of the fandom since they were 10 and 11 ;)


Many of TR fans lives outside US and UE, or if they live in UE, they live in countries without EUR/GBP, where xbox is extremely expensive and can cost more than a full month salary while one game can cost like 3 electric bills. These fans will never buy xbone for just one game.

Now let's look at PC gamers and people who chose PS4 instead of xbone. They won't buy xbox for only one game too. PS4 gamers says they can't afford now it or aren't interested in buying a spy-console or they say xbone has worse graphic and they're not interested in playing TR on it. PC gamers are usually great on K+M, controller makes them sick (I'm one of those people), plus they enjoy the graphics, which are better than on any console (I'm once again one of those people). Some of those who could afford to buy xbox and even thought about it but didn't make a final decision yet, they say they won't do it now because the deal hurt them too deep. Yes, some people will still buy xbone, but those are mostly outside TR-fandom gamers, who'd buy it anyway to play other games and maybe, just maybe, they'll play ROTTR too. The fans, on the other hand, are pissed off and if the game will come out on PC/PS, lots of them will either buy it for half the price or even wait for the sales or they won't buy it at all because they feel betrayed. If the industry doesn't support the fans (who support them for years) equally, most of them won't take it nicely and will pay them back by not giving them as much money as they'd like to get.

Moves like this whole "deal" gives MS a bad promotion tbh. If they'd hire a studio to make them a very new game, exclusively for xbox platform, it would be fine. But BUYING exclusive for xbox for who knows how long when the game was multiplatform since the very beginning and releasing it pretty much on its 20th anniversary, is the worst kind of promotion they could make. I even saw a few xbone players who said they won't buy ROTTR until it comes out on all of the other platforms because they feel it's unfair and hurtful for other gamers. So if MS think this move will bring them lots of new customers, they're wrong. If anyone would confirm that this game will come out on other platforms, the amount of hate would be much smaller. It'd still be there, but at least, some fans would actually buy xbone to play ROTTR and support not MS per se, but SE/CD since day 1.

The deal isn't aimed at medium to hard core gamers or fans in the main. Some may be attracted but I believe its the general buying public MS want to attract.

Metalrocks
26th Feb 2015, 09:36
That is correct, many articles were wrong, we've already been over this.



Don't tell me you're still surprised about bad game journalism after the whole #gamergate debacle :p


)

just weird that there werent any other articles from SE stating that they didnt claim that way.
and no im not surprised. but still not unbelievable regardless.

WinterSoldierLTE
26th Feb 2015, 10:49
Many of TR fans lives outside US and UE, or if they live in UE, they live in countries without EUR/GBP, where xbox is extremely expensive and can cost more than a full month salary while one game can cost like 3 electric bills. These fans will never buy xbone for just one game.

Now let's look at PC gamers and people who chose PS4 instead of xbone. They won't buy xbox for only one game too. PS4 gamers says they can't afford now it or aren't interested in buying a spy-console or they say xbone has worse graphic and they're not interested in playing TR on it. PC gamers are usually great on K+M, controller makes them sick (I'm one of those people), plus they enjoy the graphics, which are better than on any console (I'm once again one of those people). Some of those who could afford to buy xbox and even thought about it but didn't make a final decision yet, they say they won't do it now because the deal hurt them too deep. Yes, some people will still buy xbone, but those are mostly outside TR-fandom gamers, who'd buy it anyway to play other games and maybe, just maybe, they'll play ROTTR too. The fans, on the other hand, are pissed off and if the game will come out on PC/PS, lots of them will either buy it for half the price or even wait for the sales or they won't buy it at all because they feel betrayed. If the industry doesn't support the fans (who support them for years) equally, most of them won't take it nicely and will pay them back by not giving them as much money as they'd like to get.

Gaming consoles (and especially PCs) aren't cheap for anyone. I don't care what anyone says, anything (gaming console or otherwise) over $300 is expensive for me. I myself had to work a lot of overtime to get my PS3, and I had to do it again to get my PS4. I've very rarely bought games brand new because I can't afford to. If I can get 'em used I do. If I can't I wait until I can. But that's just me.

I've said before I wouldn't buy a console for just 1 game and I won't. I only just recently got my PS4. It's not an interest of mine to invest in a new console already plus it just doesn't work for my budget if I was interested. I can't be the only one in that situation. I suppose what I'm getting at here is all of us who don't already own an Xbone are in the same boat.

Tecstar70
26th Feb 2015, 11:20
Interesting stats here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-26-top-factor-driving-ps4-purchases-is-better-resolution-survey

Top factors driving new-gen console purchase in the US:

PS4:
1: Better resolution
2: Blu-ray Player
3: Game library
4: Faster processing power
5: What family wants

Xbox One:
1: Brand
2: Innovative features
3: Faster processing power
4: Exclusive games/content
5: Fun factor

Quite interesting that processor power is the only one that features for both consoles and that a blu-ray player comes so high on the list for a console thats "for the players" yet doesn't feature in a console branded as "the all-in-one entertainment system"!

Exclusive games/content doesn't appear in the PS4 list...just sayin'... :D

It is also indicative of what people want/expect from their console.

dayoum
26th Feb 2015, 13:44
The deal isn't aimed at medium to hard core gamers or fans in the main. Some may be attracted but I believe its the general buying public MS want to attract.
Even if MS is trying to attract the general public (which will buy their product anyway, but not to play only one game and ROTTR is not their main interest), they already lost many potential customers who'd buy xbone if MS wouldn't make such deal.


Gaming consoles (and especially PCs) aren't cheap for anyone. I don't care what anyone says, anything (gaming console or otherwise) over $300 is expensive for me. I myself had to work a lot of overtime to get my PS3, and I had to do it again to get my PS4. I've very rarely bought games brand new because I can't afford to. If I can get 'em used I do. If I can't I wait until I can. But that's just me.

I've said before I wouldn't buy a console for just 1 game and I won't. I only just recently got my PS4. It's not an interest of mine to invest in a new console already plus it just doesn't work for my budget if I was interested. I can't be the only one in that situation. I suppose what I'm getting at here is all of us who don't already own an Xbone are in the same boat.
Ok, You live in US so I'm going to use $ as an example. Imagine that you earn 1200-1500$ per month and xbone costs 1800$ (the cheapest version) while xbox360 costs 1300$ (the only meaningful version) and ROTTR for xbone would cost 320$. It's way too much, right? PCs are expensive too, but they're far more useful and actually needed ;)

Yeah, we're all in the same boat.

I think on Feb 27th the last update for ROTTR will come out and judging by one of Camilla's twitts, it should be something big. Maybe a better trailer.

Tecstar70
26th Feb 2015, 14:21
Even if MS is trying to attract the general public (which will buy their product anyway, but not to play only one game and ROTTR is not their main interest),
The point is that making a big noise about Tomb Raider, one of the most well known game franchises, will attract more potential casual buyers to the Xbox. For people looking for that extra reason to go one way or another TR may be it. It will attract new customers, I am sure of that.


they already lost many potential customers who'd buy xbone if MS wouldn't make such deal.
Are you saying that by making this deal there are a large number of people who now will NOT buy an Xbox One purely becase of it? How do you come to that conclusion?

dayoum
26th Feb 2015, 15:05
The point is that making a big noise about Tomb Raider, one of the most well known game franchises, will attract more potential casual buyers to the Xbox. For people looking for that extra reason to go one way or another TR may be it. It will attract new customers, I am sure of that.
Those who knows what TR is but they have no idea about the deal and they don't know the game's backstory, not to mention they're not fans of the title - yes, they'll get attracted at least a little bit. But TR is not their main interest when it comes to xbone anyway so there's no point tbh. These people would buy xbone anyway.


Are you saying that by making this deal there are a large number of people who now will NOT buy an Xbox One purely becase of it? How do you come to that conclusion?
MS isn't really loved by their customers (especially in Europe and China) for many reasons and if there's one more reason to avoid buying one of their products then people won't buy it. TR case is famous right now, in probably all the languages, so quite a lot of gamers do read about it and know what's going on.

Tecstar70
26th Feb 2015, 17:40
Those who knows what TR is but they have no idea about the deal and they don't know the game's backstory, not to mention they're not fans of the title - yes, they'll get attracted at least a little bit. But TR is not their main interest when it comes to xbone anyway so there's no point tbh. These people would buy xbone anyway.
We shall have to agree to disagree on this point.



MS isn't really loved by their customers (especially in Europe and China)
How have you come to this conclusion? Most people who have got Xboxes (in my experience) on the whole love them. I know several people who ditched their PS4's for Xbox Ones.

s-jay2676
26th Feb 2015, 17:46
Since the exclusivity of Rise of the Tomb Raider is still such a pretty hot topic, I decided to add my two cents to it. I have no doubt that a PC version of the game will be released (about 1 year later, I think) but I'm not so sure about a PS4 version. Going by the examples of Dead Rising 3 and Ryse I'd say that it doesn't look good for PlayStation players. But even if I'm wrong and ROTTR finds its way to Sony's console in the end I will not buy it and I wish other PS players would do the same and maybe then something would change. Sadly that's not gonna happen, though.

Tecstar70
26th Feb 2015, 17:53
Since the exclusivity of Rise of the Tomb Raider is still such a pretty hot topic, I decided to add my two cents to it. I have no doubt that a PC version of the game will be released (about 1 year later, I think) but I'm not so sure about a PS4 version. Going by the examples of Dead Rising 3 and Ryse I'd say that it doesn't look good for PlayStation players. But even if I'm wrong and ROTTR finds its way to Sony's console in the end I will not buy it and I wish other PS players would do the same and maybe then something would change. Sadly that's not gonna happen, though.

Take your time and read the other thread on the subject: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=146569
I think you are wrong for many good reasons.

dayoum
26th Feb 2015, 18:04
How have you come to this conclusion? Most people who have got Xboxes (in my experience) on the whole love them. I know several people who ditched their PS4's for Xbox Ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft
I'm not talking about xbox owners. I'm talking about those who don't, but could. Personally, if I would ever buy a console, I'd chose xbone because there are a few games I'm interested in, BUT... I won't buy it because I'm really bad on the controller and with ROTTR affair they just made me even more not interested in their product.


Since the exclusivity of Rise of the Tomb Raider is still such a pretty hot topic, I decided to add my two cents to it. I have no doubt that a PC version of the game will be released (about 1 year later, I think) but I'm not so sure about a PS4 version. Going by the examples of Dead Rising 3 and Ryse I'd say that it doesn't look good for PlayStation players. But even if I'm wrong and ROTTR finds its way to Sony's console in the end I will not buy it and I wish other PS players would do the same and maybe then something would change. Sadly that's not gonna happen, though.
And here we have a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Yes, MS did the same with Dead Rising 3, Ryse and some other game that name is starting with "T", but this last one isn't even on PC. A year is a lot of time, I'm not sure how many people can wait this long for a BIG game that is released on TR's 20th anniversary as an exclusive for xbox. It hurts & it burns.

Driber
26th Feb 2015, 20:35
“"When people want me to say, can you tell us when or if it's coming to other platforms, it's not my job," Spencer told Eurogamer. "My job is not to talk about games I don't own. I have a certain relationship on this version of Tomb Raider, which we announced, and I feel really good about our long term relationship with Crystal and Square.”

This leaves an open window for SE to say if (not "when") the game will come out on other platforms

No, that is not correct.

You are making the wrong assumption that "it's not my job" means "SE is free to say what they want". If SE/CD signed a contract stating that they can't talk about other platforms until a certain per-determined date, then Spencer is still quite correct by stating it isn't his job to talk about other platforms regarding a game he doesn't own the rights to.

You're going to have to do better than making these kinds of faulty assumptions to demonstrate that what they said doesn't make sense.


but their answer was like this:

"Our friends at Microsoft have always seen huge potential in Tomb Raider and have believed in our vision since our first unveil with them on their stage at E3 2011," wrote Darrell Gallagher on the Tomb Raider tumblr. "We know they will get behind this game more than any support we have had from them in the past - we believe this will be a step to really forging the Tomb Raider brand as one of the biggest in gaming, with the help, belief and backing of a major partner like Microsoft."

Yeah, and? That still makes sense in the scenario we talked about.

You can speculate on the likelihood of said scenario, but you can't say that CD's (lack of) communication makes no sense in that scenario.


About my friends - not everyone will forgive SE/CD for doing what they did. Me and a few other friends of mine will buy this game if it'll come out on PC, because we enjoyed TR2013 too much. But we're not really excited for this sequel and none of us will buy it during the first week or month after it gets released. One guy joked he could probably wait a whole year for sales and buy it for no more than 5$, but his kids would drive him crazy.

I didn't say that everyone will forgive SE/CD, but I know that sometimes people say things and then do differently in the end. Your friends could be one of them, so I was just saying that I hope they'll change their minds if the games to their platforms in the end :)


I remember reading somewhere it was about half sales on PS, last thirties percent for Xbox, and in the early teens for PC.

So 50% PS and 40% XB? That would make it 1.25 times more then (TR9 PS sales vs. TR9 XB sales). That's vastly different than 3 times more.


The 3 to 1 is consoles sales PS4 to Xbox one before the last quarter when Xbox made some gains but still miles behind.

Ah, so that makes it irrelevant then.


We would have thought this deal would never happen before. Now Darrel in his own words see MS as his friends anything possible. He show such disregard that while unlikely it's not practically impossible like before.

Not sure if I agree with that, but at any rate, dayoum was still incorrect when he said that Darrell has been giving "hints" that the franchise will be permanently exclusive in the future. No hints were given.


The quote is just designed to be an insulting answer

That's obviously not true. Designed to be evasive, maybe. But not designed to be insulting. That makes no sense.


just weird that there werent any other articles from SE stating that they didnt claim that way.
and no im not surprised. but still not unbelievable regardless.

Why is that weird? If SE had to respond to every bit of bad journalism out there, they would be at it 24/7. That's just an impossible task :p


Interesting stats here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-26-top-factor-driving-ps4-purchases-is-better-resolution-survey

Top factors driving new-gen console purchase in the US:

PS4:
1: Better resolution
2: Blu-ray Player
3: Game library
4: Faster processing power
5: What family wants

Xbox One:
1: Brand
2: Innovative features
3: Faster processing power
4: Exclusive games/content
5: Fun factor

Quite interesting that processor power is the only one that features for both consoles and that a blu-ray player comes so high on the list for a console thats "for the players" yet doesn't feature in a console branded as "the all-in-one entertainment system"!

Exclusive games/content doesn't appear in the PS4 list...just sayin'... :D

It is also indicative of what people want/expect from their console.

Those are some interesting stats.

Funny how both have "faster processing power" in their top 5. If that means "faster than the competitor" rather than "faster than previous generation" then at least one camp is very wrong and either doesn't know it or are fanboying :p

Also nice to see Nintendo leading with the fun factor and with brand loyalty. That just shows how strong Nintendo is (and why I laugh whenever people hate on Nintendo and try to paint them as "irrelevant" in the gaming community :lol:)


Even if MS is trying to attract the general public (which will buy their product anyway, but not to play only one game and ROTTR is not their main interest), they already lost many potential customers who'd buy xbone if MS wouldn't make such deal.

Maybe, but you do not know if those lost potential customers outnumber potential gained customers due to the deal.


Those who knows what TR is but they have no idea about the deal and they don't know the game's backstory, not to mention they're not fans of the title

Well if these people don't really know the backstory and aren't fans of the franchise, what makes you think they would care about an exclusivity deal in the first place?


- yes, they'll get attracted at least a little bit. But TR is not their main interest when it comes to xbone anyway so there's no point tbh. These people would buy xbone anyway.

All speculation.


MS isn't really loved by their customers

I think what you mean to say is that MS isn't really loved by the gaming community who don't own their consoles. If you are a customer (thus meaning you own MS's consoles) then you are logically more inclined to like them as opposed to not being a MS customer.


(especially in Europe and China)

China can't really be used as an example. They had a 14 year ban on consoles until only recently, so few people there were even able to get xboxes in the first place.


for many reasons and if there's one more reason to avoid buying one of their products then people won't buy it.

Sure, it may sway some folks to avoid xbox, but the deal will surely also sway some folks the other direction. And you don't know the numbers to determine which one is more.


TR case is famous right now, in probably all the languages, so quite a lot of gamers do read about it and know what's going on.

And a lot of gamers don't. Especially the casual gamer crowd, which is the target audience of the game.


Since the exclusivity of Rise of the Tomb Raider is still such a pretty hot topic, I decided to add my two cents to it. I have no doubt that a PC version of the game will be released (about 1 year later, I think) but I'm not so sure about a PS4 version. Going by the examples of Dead Rising 3 and Ryse I'd say that it doesn't look good for PlayStation players. But even if I'm wrong and ROTTR finds its way to Sony's console in the end I will not buy it and I wish other PS players would do the same and maybe then something would change. Sadly that's not gonna happen, though.

But even if that would happen, wouldn't that just show SE that there's no money to make from the PS crowd, therefore possibly giving an incentive to stick with the XB crowd? :whistle:


And here we have a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Boycotting a PS release is what you were talking about? I thought you were talking about boycotting the XB release :scratch:

Funnily enough, if both of you got your ways, no one would buy the game. And then the game will fail. How is that supposed to help anyone?


A year is a lot of time, I'm not sure how many people can wait this long for a BIG game that is released on TR's 20th anniversary as an exclusive for xbox. It hurts & it burns.

Yes, 1 year is a lot of time. Which is why I found it preposterous that you suggested a 2020 release, which is four whole years later...

Tecstar70
26th Feb 2015, 20:43
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Microsoft
I'm not talking about xbox owners. I'm talking about those who don't, but could. Personally, if I would ever buy a console, I'd chose xbone because there are a few games I'm interested in, BUT... I won't buy it because I'm really bad on the controller and with ROTTR affair they just made me even more not interested in their product.

Your seriously citing Wikipedia as evidence that enough people feel strong enough about MS that they won't buy an Xbox to mean that this deal will fail.

I'm sorry but that doesn't wash.

If you are starting at a position of "I won't buy it" how can the deal make you "even more not interested in their product"? I find this strange.

I would respond to some of your other points but Driber has already been there. :thumb:

dayoum
26th Feb 2015, 21:36
Funnily enough, if both of you got your ways, no one would buy the game. And then the game will fail. How is that supposed to help anyone?
No, if both of us would got our ways and ROTTR would've been released on all of the platforms the same time, people would buy this game more willingly.


Boycotting a PS release is what you were talking about? I thought you were talking about boycotting the XB release
I was talking mostly about people's reaction to the news and how they see this deal. A LOT of them are boycotting the game. And xb. Even SE/CD - they say SE/CD sold out. That post was a perfect example of it, but there's more on twitter and in other media.


Your seriously citing Wikipedia as evidence that enough people feel strong enough about MS that they won't buy an Xbox to mean that this deal will fail.
I gave you the link to this because I just have no time to explain MS-hate. It's not about consoles, it's about their system as a whole. I live in a country where Linux is getting more and more popular, MS Office almost doesn't exist anymore (OpenOffice is everywhere) and maybe 1% of population is still using IE.


If you are starting at a position of "I won't buy it" how can the deal make you "even more not interested in their product"? I find this strange.
That's because I suck on the controller and the games that looks interesting to me are too difficult to play on a controller while ROTTR, just like TR, wouldn't be impossible to play on it. But I won't buy xbone for just ROTTR, right? Even if they'll switch to an exclusive only for xb, I won't buy it. Not after this whole affair.

s-jay2676
26th Feb 2015, 22:05
But even if that would happen, wouldn't that just show SE that there's no money to make from the PS crowd, therefore possibly giving an incentive to stick with the XB crowd? :whistle:

It could show that releasing a game later is not profitable and they would either release it on all platforms at the same time or don't release it at all.



Funnily enough, if both of you got your ways, no one would buy the game. And then the game will fail. How is that supposed to help anyone?


It would help the customers, because it would show the companies that customers are more than mere pawns. It would show them that their success is dependable on our money. For that to happen the game has to fail. Nothing will change if the game is successful.
But this is just wishful thinking. I am sure that as soon as they announce a PS4 or PC version of the game, people will start throwing money at them and thanking them for bringing the game to their favourite platform. And CD and SE will glee with joy because we've shown ourselves as good and predictable customers and some time later they're gonna announce another exclusive title and the whole thing will start anew.

WinterSoldierLTE
27th Feb 2015, 00:10
Interesting stats here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-26-top-factor-driving-ps4-purchases-is-better-resolution-survey

Top factors driving new-gen console purchase in the US:

PS4:
1: Better resolution
2: Blu-ray Player
3: Game library
4: Faster processing power
5: What family wants

Xbox One:
1: Brand
2: Innovative features
3: Faster processing power
4: Exclusive games/content
5: Fun factor

Man, this is interesting. It just goes to show how much things have changed over the years. Way back when, "Fun factor" would've (and I say still should be) #1. Geez I feel out of touch...

Me personally? Could care less about the tech aspects of any of them. Make it fun with good games, easy to use, and built to last. And you know, I've never once thought about exclusive titles. I really could care less what's exclusive to what when I buy a new console. My stance on exclusivities are: "Why not make them for everyone to play?". It's different if it's a company mascot tho. I am by no means a "Nintendo fanboy", but even I'd be like "What the Hell? That's not right!" if a Mario or Zelda game popped up on a PS or Microsoft console. Honestly I'm still not comfy with Sonic The Hedgehog being passed around from console to console. Sega is still very much alive, I know. But you can't think of Sonic without thinking of a Sega console. You just can't.

And I'm stoked for what people said about Nintendo as well. They may not make enough games that appeal to me to warrant a console purchase, but they make good games. And when they make a great game, they make a great game. And having said that and my stance on exclusivities above, there are a few Nintendo games I would love to play and own, but it doesn't break my heart that I probably never will.

I always wonder who it is being asked these questions for these surveys tho. What kind of people are they? Gamers, obviously. But did they ask hardcores or casuals? Which of those groups did they speak to more if they spoke to both? I do that with every survey of every type tho. Sometimes you've got to question them.

Error96_
27th Feb 2015, 01:56
It could show that releasing a game later is not profitable and they would either release it on all platforms at the same time or don't release it at all.

It would help the customers, because it would show the companies that customers are more than mere pawns. It would show them that their success is dependable on our money. For that to happen the game has to fail. Nothing will change if the game is successful.
But this is just wishful thinking. I am sure that as soon as they announce a PS4 or PC version of the game, people will start throwing money at them and thanking them for bringing the game to their favourite platform. And CD and SE will glee with joy because we've shown ourselves as good and predictable customers and some time later they're gonna announce another exclusive title and the whole thing will start anew.

Not buying the game will have the opposite effect. MS can then say to SE/CD well look how much your percentage of sales have dropped on PS and we now we are your biggest platform so now we have more influence over TR. If the game fails MS's money becomes more valuable. If PS and PC outsold xbox on ROTTR, which is unlikely but be such a wonderfully ironic thing to happen. Pressing the issue to not let it drop especially letting opinion be known across the web around xbox release and review score times could have the biggest impact.


That's obviously not true. Designed to be evasive, maybe. But not designed to be insulting. That makes no sense.

The 'We are focused on delivering a great game for xbox' line is insulting as they are saying their focus is not on making a great ROTTR game for the majority. In that Q and A the person answering just says Microsoft is amazing to everything asked whatever it is and acts like it's a insulting question when asked about anything else including TR's fans.

Tecstar70
27th Feb 2015, 09:21
No, if both of us would got our ways and ROTTR would've been released on all of the platforms the same time, people would buy this game more willingly.
Maybe, but until the sales figures are released this is just speculation.


I was talking mostly about people's reaction to the news and how they see this deal. A LOT of them are boycotting the game. And xb. Even SE/CD - they say SE/CD sold out. That post was a perfect example of it, but there's more on twitter and in other media.
A lot of people on the places on the internet you have read about might be. You cant extend this to the marketplace as a whole.


I gave you the link to this because I just have no time to explain MS-hate. It's not about consoles, it's about their system as a whole. I live in a country where Linux is getting more and more popular, MS Office almost doesn't exist anymore (OpenOffice is everywhere) and maybe 1% of population is still using IE.
Again, you can't extend this as an argument that this deal will be a bad move. Every company has its "haters". I don't particulalry like Sony products for various reasons (although I wouldn't say i'm a "hater" as such).



That's because I suck on the controller and the games that looks interesting to me are too difficult to play on a controller while ROTTR, just like TR, wouldn't be impossible to play on it. But I won't buy xbone for just ROTTR, right? Even if they'll switch to an exclusive only for xb, I won't buy it. Not after this whole affair.
But you said that you wouldn't buy one anyway, so I don't understand your logic.


It could show that releasing a game later is not profitable and they would either release it on all platforms at the same time or don't release it at all.

It would help the customers, because it would show the companies that customers are more than mere pawns. It would show them that their success is dependable on our money. For that to happen the game has to fail. Nothing will change if the game is successful.
But this is just wishful thinking. I am sure that as soon as they announce a PS4 or PC version of the game, people will start throwing money at them and thanking them for bringing the game to their favourite platform. And CD and SE will glee with joy because we've shown ourselves as good and predictable customers and some time later they're gonna announce another exclusive title and the whole thing will start anew.

It may not. It may show that it's not worth releasing the next game in the series. It may show that a particular market has dried up and so they focus more on others.

So you would be happy if they didn't release the game at all? Really?



Not buying the game will have the opposite effect. MS can then say to SE/CD well look how much your percentage of sales have dropped on PS and we now we are your biggest platform so now we have more influence over TR. If the game fails MS's money becomes more valuable. If PS and PC outsold xbox on ROTTR, which is unlikely but be such a wonderfully ironic thing to happen. Pressing the issue to not let it drop especially letting opinion be known across the web around xbox release and review score times could have the biggest impact.
Agreed



The 'We are focused on delivering a great game for xbox' line is insulting as they are saying their focus is not on making a great ROTTR game for the majority.
I disagree. It is not saying anything of the sort. Just because they are focussing on delivering a great game for Xbox doesn't mean they aren't dong the same for other platforms.


In that Q and A the person answering just says Microsoft is amazing to everything asked whatever it is and acts like it's a insulting question when asked about anything else including TR's fans.
What do you expect. Thats what "The Deal"tm (its about time it had a proper name isn't it?) is about. You may only see it as insulting because it's not what you want to hear, not because of the words being spoken.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 14:28
Not buying the game will have the opposite effect. MS can then say to SE/CD well look how much your percentage of sales have dropped on PS and we now we are your biggest platform so now we have more influence over TR. If the game fails MS's money becomes more valuable. If PS and PC outsold xbox on ROTTR, which is unlikely but be such a wonderfully ironic thing to happen. Pressing the issue to not let it drop especially letting opinion be known across the web around xbox release and review score times could have the biggest impact.


If ROTTR on PS and PC would outsell Xbox, then it would only show that CD and SE were right all along. They managed to secure financial support from Microsoft while sill selling the game successfully on other systems. Why wouldn't they do it again in the future?



It may not. It may show that it's not worth releasing the next game in the series. It may show that a particular market has dried up and so they focus more on others.

So you would be happy if they didn't release the game at all? Really?

Yes, I would. I'll probably never going to play this game anyway, because it either won't be released on PS4 at all or it's gonna be released so late that the game won't be worth paying 50€ or 60€ for it.

Tecstar70
27th Feb 2015, 15:22
If ROTTR on PS and PC would outsell Xbox, then it would only show that CD and SE were right all along. They managed to secure financial support from Microsoft while sill selling the game successfully on other systems. Why wouldn't they do it again in the future?

Thats an interesting way of looking at it, but The Deal(tm) is not just about financial support from MS. I think SE are well aware of their higher market share on PC and PS4 and if the Xbox market is increased significantly there is no reason for them to do it again.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 15:34
Thats an interesting way of looking at it, but The Deal(tm) is not just about financial support from MS. I think SE are well aware of their higher market share on OC and PS4 and if the Xbox market is increased significantly there is no reason for them to do it again.

Maybe not on Tomb Raider, but they have other games like Final Fantasy, which I think has a similar market share to TR.

Driber
27th Feb 2015, 16:38
No, if both of us would got our ways and ROTTR would've been released on all of the platforms the same time, people would buy this game more willingly.

That goes without saying, but that wasn't the point and I'm sure you know it.


I was talking mostly about people's reaction to the news and how they see this deal. A LOT of them are boycotting the game. And xb. Even SE/CD - they say SE/CD sold out. That post was a perfect example of it, but there's more on twitter and in other media.

So your point is that people's overall reaction is that they don't like the deal? Tell us something we don't know...

Not sure I understand what you mean by "Even SE/CD - they say SE/CD sold out", though.


I live in a country where Linux is getting more and more popular, MS Office almost doesn't exist anymore (OpenOffice is everywhere) and maybe 1% of population is still using IE.

About 10% of your country still uses IE, not 1%. But even so, I don't think that is really connected to "MS hate". The fact is that IE is simply a crappy browser, and a badly marketed one. Do you know what other browsers have low penetration rates in your country? Opera and Safari. They get even more poor rates than IE. Are you going to try to tell us that that is because 90% of people in your country hates Opera Software and Apple? I doubt it.

As for MS Office - also that I don't think is connected to "MS hate". MS Office is a paid product, stemming from an era when free alternatives weren't around. Now we have stuff like Google docs and -- as you pointed out yourself -- Open Office. Why pay for text editors and spreadsheet software when you can very easily get it for free these days.

And Linux getting more popular - show me the statistics, and the proof that it's because of "MS hate".


It could show that releasing a game later is not profitable and they would either release it on all platforms at the same time or don't release it at all.

Or don't release what at all? The game after TR10? So you mean the franchise would be dead? How is that going to help the situation?


It would help the customers, because it would show the companies that customers are more than mere pawns.

It wouldn't help the customers if a mass boycott would kill the franchise, though.


It would show them that their success is dependable on our money. For that to happen the game has to fail. Nothing will change if the game is successful.

I'm sure there are other ways than a mass boycott and making the game fail.


But this is just wishful thinking. I am sure that as soon as they announce a PS4 or PC version of the game, people will start throwing money at them and thanking them for bringing the game to their favourite platform. And CD and SE will glee with joy because we've shown ourselves as good and predictable customers and some time later they're gonna announce another exclusive title and the whole thing will start anew.

I think the gaming community as a whole has been enabling unhealthy practices in the industry for ages. Certain kinds of DLC come to mind :whistle:


The 'We are focused on delivering a great game for xbox' line is insulting as they are saying their focus is not on making a great ROTTR game for the majority.

If you feel insulted by that answer, I can't make you feel otherwise, but you can't say that that answer was designed to be insulting. That just makes no sense. Do you think Darrell sat down and had a long think how to best insult two-thirds of the fanbase because he dislikes fans, or what?

Also, what Tecstar said - "Just because they are focussing on delivering a great game for Xbox doesn't mean they aren't dong the same for other platforms."


If ROTTR on PS and PC would outsell Xbox, then it would only show that CD and SE were right all along. They managed to secure financial support from Microsoft while sill selling the game successfully on other systems. Why wouldn't they do it again in the future?

If TR10 sells well on PC and PS, while XB copies wouldn't sell at all, then I'm sure neither MS nor SE would like to try such a deal again.

Remember, we were talking about a hypothetical, unrealistic situation where there would be a selective boycott against XB copies of the game.


Yes, I would. I'll probably never going to play this game anyway, because it either won't be released on PS4 at all or it's gonna be released so late that the game won't be worth paying 50€ or 60€ for it.

No offense, but if you're happy seeing the franchise die because of sour grapes over this deal, then I don't know why we're even wasting time talking with you. All of us (except for you, apparently) would hurt if the franchise would be killed off. And much more so than with this situation of the timed exclusive of TR10. If that brings you joy, I don't think we'll ever find a common ground here.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 17:42
If TR10 sells well on PC and PS, while XB copies wouldn't sell at all, then I'm sure neither MS nor SE would like to try such a deal again.

Remember, we were talking about a hypothetical, unrealistic situation where there would be a selective boycott against XB copies of the game.

The "boycott" would be against the PS copies of the game, not Xbox. Tbh this wasn't even an appeal to boycott the game at all. What I meant is that some people who were angry and felt betrayed and disappointed by SE and CD after the initial announcement, now, after they confirmed that it is in fact a timed exclusivity, act as if SE and CD are greatest companies ever. Everything is splendid for them. I don't think that such an attitude will change anything. But I'm not saying they should boycott the game. Everyone is supposed to make their own decisions, but maybe it wouldn't be so wrong to think for a moment before deciding.



No offense, but if you're happy seeing the franchise die because of sour grapes over this deal, then I don't know why we're even wasting time talking with you. All of us (except for you, apparently) would hurt if the franchise would be killed off. And much more so than with this situation of the timed exclusive of TR10. If that brings you joy, I don't think we'll ever find a common ground here.

Maybe you're one ot the people who owns every possible gaming platform, but let's assume for a moment that you don't have a PS4. Would you really hurt if The Order 1886 would fail? Or Uncharted? Or the new Street Figher? I don't own an Xbox and I don't play on PC. I play exclusively on PS and if ROTTR would fail I certainly wouldn't be celebrating while jumping up and down, but I wouldn't be getting sleepless nights over it, either. Maybe this makes me a shallow and awful person, I don't know, but at least I'm honest.

dayoum
27th Feb 2015, 18:01
Not sure I understand what you mean by "Even SE/CD - they say SE/CD sold out", though.
I mean that a there's quite big group of people who says SE/CD went for the money MS which MS was "offering them". So they say SE/CD sold out and the're best buddies with MS now instead of supporting the whole fanbase of the game.


About 10% of your country still uses IE, not 1%
Additional 9% are bureaus where people almost can't use the internet anyway (there're restrictions of which sites they can enter) so they're not counted in normal statistics. We had big 3: Chrome, Mozilla, Opera, but ever since Opera changed their engine and cut the most useful options, people got mad and switched to either Chrome or Mozilla.


Are you going to try to tell us that that is because 90% of people in your country hates Opera Software and Apple? I doubt it.
Apple is quite hated here. People don't like appstore where many apps are region locked and they don't support our country. Those who bought their products usually says it was a huge waste of money (Apple is extremely expensive) because they can't use it in its full potential.
Opera was loved before they changed the engine.


As for MS Office - also that I don't think is connected to "MS hate". MS Office is a paid product, stemming from an era when free alternatives weren't around.
It would have sense if the government didn't switch to the OpenOffice as well. Many people have MS Office 1997, 2000 or even 2007, but they just don't like using those and never did. I didn't either. It's too heavy. I find OpenOffice much easier to use.


And Linux getting more popular - show me the statistics, and the proof that it's because of "MS hate".
That would be impossible since these don't exist, but Linux is an open source system and people are switching to it not becuase it's for free, but because MS is starting to collect the data about their users. After PRISM affair I've read an article where it was stated that it's possible for Linux to outrun Windows in the next 5 - 8 years.

I use MS (Win 7 and Vista), I don't hate the system per se, but I do find their policy questionable and I don't like many of their moves, but the same goes for any other company, PS included. Both of them have this stupid war where the ones that gets hurt are the customers. Still, I wouldn't change Windows for Linux, even tho I prefer Android over WindowsPhone. I tried, but it's not my cup of tea.


If TR10 sells well on PC and PS, while XB copies wouldn't sell at all, then I'm sure neither MS nor SE would like to try such a deal again.
So they learned nothing about TR2013 sales, yes? PS&PC gamers bought a whole lot more copies than x360 and xbone. To this day, TR2013 was sold in 7.5 million copies (6.5 million copies were sold out during the first year), it's not really that much considering the game exist on the market for 2 years. They made the deal anyway. And it is a huge risk. If the exclusive will be timed for a year (most possible scenario) it'll cause more harm than good. Especially on TR's 20th anniversary where the majority of the fanbase won't be able to play the game.


Tbh this wasn't even an appeal to boycott the game at all. What I meant is that some people who were angry and felt betrayed and disappointed by SE and CD after the initial announcement, now, after they confirmed that it is in fact a timed exclusivity, act as if SE and CD are greatest companies ever. Everything is splendid for them.
No, it's not splendid at all. It doesn't metter if the exclusive is timed, it's still exclusive and it still hurts that there will be people who'll play the game before us. They'll play it, talk about it, publish their "let's play" on yt and everything while we, non xb gamers, won't be able to enjoy it. The reaction would've been exactly the same if ROTTR was made a timed exclusive for PS or PC. Not buying the game would only make it worse and MS could buy TR as an exclusive only for their platform. Do I like this possible scenario? NOPE.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 18:35
Not buying the game would only make it worse and MS could buy TR as an exclusive only for their platform.

Perhaps, but in my opinion CD and SE have crossed a line and I won't be paying a cent for Rise of the Tomb Raider*. They made their choice and I made mine. The customer is the boss, people used to say. Well, that has changed a long time ago, but at least I'm still the boss of my wallet and I get to decide where the money from that wallet is going to go. And if my attitude will lead to TR becoming a Xbox exclusive, then so be it. There are and there will be other games to play.

*That doesn't mean i won't be buying other SE games. I recently purchased Life Is Strange (which I really liked) and I'm still planning to buy the upcoming Final Fantasy titles and Dragon Quest Heroes.

dayoum
27th Feb 2015, 18:58
Perhaps, but in my opinion CD and SE have crossed a line and I won't be paying a cent for Rise of the Tomb Raider*. They made their choice and I made mine. The customer is the boss, people used to say. Well, that has changed a long time ago, but at least I'm still the boss of my wallet and I get to decide where the money from that wallet is going to go. And if my attitude will lead to TR becoming a Xbox exclusive, then so be it. There are and there will be other games to play.
You do know you're not hurting SE/CD/MS, but other gamers by doing so? I understand, I really do, since a couple of my friends won't buy the game either, but it's bad policy as well. I won't buy it for full price, but I'm going to buy it anyway bc I'm a fan of the title since the beginning. I'm still mad and I can't feel super excited for ROTTR, but it doesn't mean I won't play something I like and enjoy. Even if it's going to be bittersweet.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 19:15
You do know you're not hurting SE/CD/MS, but other gamers by doing so? I understand, I really do, since a couple of my friends won't buy the game either, but it's bad policy as well. I won't buy it for full price, but I'm going to buy it anyway bc I'm a fan of the title since the beginning. I'm still mad and I can't feel super excited for ROTTR, but it doesn't mean I won't play something I like and enjoy. Even if it's going to be bittersweet.

I'm definitely not hurting other gamers. I play the games for myself and not for others. But let me ask you this. You're saying you're mad but you're still gonna buy the game. What would need to happen so that you'd stop supporting this kind of business practice? If they would ask you to pay 100€ for the game. Would you still buy it?

dayoum
27th Feb 2015, 19:23
I'm definitely not hurting other gamers. I play the games for myself and not for others. But let me ask you this. You're saying you're mad but you're still gonna buy the game. What would need to happen so that you'd stop supporting this kind of business practice? If they would ask you to pay 100€ for the game. Would you still buy it?
If you're a fan of TR (I have no idea why would you start writing here if you weren't) then in the long run, what you (and other people who say they won't buy the game) do is hurting other gamers since future of TR could get questionable (no more games) or the title would end up as a permanent exclusive for xbox. If this scenario would became reality, PS players for sure would never get any future TR while PC maaaaybe... a year or two after it gets released on xbone.

I wouldn't buy it for 100€ because it would be like ~500 in my currency and that's waaaay too much. But I would buy it for 100 or even 150 in my currency if the full price would've been 320, as it is right now for ROTTR. If it'll come out on PC, full price will probably be between 140 - 160 so I'm going to wait until it'll cost 80 - 60.

Tecstar70
27th Feb 2015, 19:34
I mean that a there's quite big group of people who says SE/CD went for the money MS which MS was "offering them". So they say SE/CD sold out and the're best buddies with MS now instead of supporting the whole fanbase of the game..
As I said earlier. Its not just about money. Its about increasing the Xbox userbase.



So they learned nothing about TR2013 sales, yes? PS&PC gamers bought a whole lot more copies than x360 and xbone. To this day, TR2013 was sold in 7.5 million copies (6.5 million copies were sold out during the first year), it's not really that much considering the game exist on the market for 2 years.
You have just given the possible main reason why the deal was done.



If the exclusive will be timed for a year (most possible scenario) it'll cause more harm than good. Especially on TR's 20th anniversary where the majority of the fanbase won't be able to play the game..
A year is NOT the most possible scenario. Within 6 months is (I have explained why in the other thread I pointed you to). If you think a year is, explain why. (preferably with reference with my reasons in the other thread).

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 19:54
If you're a fan of TR (I have no idea why would you start writing here if you weren't) then in the long run, what you (and other people who say they won't buy the game) do is hurting other gamers since future of TR could get questionable (no more games) or the title would end up as a permanent exclusive for xbox. If this scenario would became reality, PS players for sure would never get any future TR while PC maaaaybe... a year or two after it gets released on xbone.

I wouldn't buy it for 100€ because it would be like ~500 in my currency and that's waaaay too much. But I would buy it for 100 or even 150 in my currency if the full price would've been 320, as it is right now for ROTTR. If it'll come out on PC, full price will probably be between 140 - 160 so I'm going to wait until it'll cost 80 - 60.

Of course, I am a fan of TR. I played it back in the nineties on PS and purchased the 2013 reboot at launch. And as thanks they basically gave me the finger on said buy the Definitve Edition. My reponse to that is to pass on ROTTR.

So, if a TR11 will be released in the future if if it's gonna be multiplatform, then you won't be paying 500 in your currency, because it would be way too much. Wouldn't that mean you'd be hurting other players, too?

This scenario you spoke of will never become reality. It doesn't matter if I or your friends will buy it, there's gonna be enough people who will gladly buy it at full price.

dayoum
27th Feb 2015, 20:02
You have just given the possible main reason why the deal was done.
Are you serious? If the game sold out in 6.5 million copies during the first year on ALL of the platforms, how can you see it as a reason to make such deal? So they can sell even less? It doesn't make any sense. The real reason is Uncharted 4 for PS, but in this case, they could still release ROTTR on PC the same day, right? It's MS too, after all...


A year is NOT the most possible scenario. Within 6 months is (I have explained why in the other thread I pointed you to). If you think a year is, explain why. (preferably with reference with my reasons in the other thread).
I think it'll be a year or even a year and a half because:
1) they need to rander the game for PC and it looks like they're not working on it at the moment (sorry, but nobody can convince me otherwise ;) )
2) the average MS's exclusive time is 10 - 15 months when it comes to PC (sometimes even 2 years - Dead Rising 3)


So, if a TR11 will be released in the future if if it's gonna be multiplatform, then you won't be paying 500 in your currency, because it would be way too much. Wouldn't that mean you'd be hurting other players, too?
Such prizes are only happening on xbone and PS4, which I don't own. PC versions are cheaper and I will buy them for a full price IF they'll come out the same day as on xbox. Otherwise, I'm going to wait for a lower prize. This behaviour won't hurt other gamers since I'll still support the product.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 20:17
A year is NOT the most possible scenario. Within 6 months is (I have explained why in the other thread I pointed you to). If you think a year is, explain why. (preferably with reference with my reasons in the other thread).

I know your response wasn't addressed to me, but nevertheless, I'd like to answer. I read your arguments in the other thread and I think you have a point, but you seem to look at this issue from SE point of view and at the same time forget the Microsoft side. I think Microsoft did this deal for three main reasons: they want to sell consoles, they want to compete with Uncharted and, in my opinion the most important one, they want to establish Xbox as the system with better games than their competition. TR fits this plan perfectly, but only if the exclusivity deal is at least one year long. Anything shorter wouldn't have enough impact on their profits. A three months exclusivity can't really compete witch Uncharted and it also would fail to establish Xbox as the system which people will associate with Tomb Raider in the future. You also mentioned that SE wouldn't gain anything if they didn't release on PS. (I think a PC release is quite certain at this point.) I agree with you, but when I look at Capcom and Dead Rising 3 then I wonder why didn't they release their game on PS as of yet. It's either because the console exclusivity deal is still going on or they deemed the release as not profitable enough. The same thing could apply to Square Enix. My prediction is ROTTR is going to be released Holiday 2015 on Xbox, then around September-October 2016 on PC and 6 months later, in spring 2017, on PlayStation. And that would be a very, very long wait.

Tecstar70
27th Feb 2015, 20:22
Are you serious? If the game sold out in 6.5 million copies during the first year on ALL of the platforms, how can you see it as a reason to make such deal? So they can sell even less? It doesn't make any sense. The real reason is Uncharted 4 for PS, but in this case, they could still release ROTTR on PC the same day, right? It's MS too, after all....

Because as you said the most sales came from PS, then Xbox, Then PC. They want to increase the Xbox user base and MS have said they will deliver that.



I think it'll be a year or even a year and a half because:
1) they need to rander the game for PC and it looks like they're not working on it at the moment (sorry, but nobody can convince me otherwise ;) )
2) the average MS's exclusive time is 10 - 15 months when it comes to PC (sometimes even 2 years - Dead Rising 3).
1)It doesn't make sense for them to develop for one platform exclusively before starting on another, particularly as consoles and PC are fairly similar now. You would end up doing some things twice which doesn't make sense. Plus to do so would delay its release which leads on to ...
2)You didn't read my reasons why it will be released by April 2016 did you? If you did you would understand why waiting longer than 6 months would not be to SE's benefit, and ultimately The Deal(tm) is designed to benefit both MS AND SE.

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 20:30
Such prizes are only happening on xbone and PS4, which I don't own. PC versions are cheaper and I will buy them for a full price IF they'll come out the same day as on xbox. Otherwise, I'm going to wait for a lower prize. This behaviour won't hurt other gamers since I'll still support the product.

I didn't articulate my point well enough and you seem to have misunderstood what I was asking. I wanted to know what would be a deal breaker for you to stop supporting CD and TR. Apparently, timed exclusivity and higher prices are not enough.

dayoum
27th Feb 2015, 20:35
you seem to look at this issue from SE point of view and at the same time forget the Microsoft side. I think Microsoft did this deal for three main reasons: they want to sell consoles, they want to compete with Uncharted and, in my opinion the most important one, they want to establish Xbox as the system with better games than their competition. TR fits this plan perfectly, but only if the exclusivity deal is at least one year long. Anything shorter wouldn't have enough impact on their profits. A three month exclusivity can't really compete witch Uncharted and it also would fail to establish Xbox as the system which people will associate with Tomb Raider in the future.
I agree.


My prdiction is ROTTR is going to be released Holiday 2015 on Xbox, then around September-October 2016 on PC
I'd say October-November 2016 is more probable, January 2017 tops.


and 6 months later, in spring 2017
Maybe even summer/fall 2017.


And that would be a very, very long wait.
Agree once again.


You didn't read my reasons why it will be released by April 2016 did you? If you did you would understand why waiting longer than 6 months would not be to SE's benefit, and ultimately The Deal(tm) is designed to benefit both MS AND SE
The thing is, MS won't get the money from PS releases. SE benefits aren't THAT important to MS now because MS can GIVE THEM money once again and at the very end TR may end up as permanent exclusive for xbox with PC releases later on. MS did that a couple of times during the last 3 years. It's nothing new and a couple of gaming reporters did say this whole deal is very dangerous for the future of TR as a multiplatform game because of MS's history with "timed exclusives".


I didn't articulate my point well enough and you seem to have misunderstood what I was asking. I wanted to know what would be a deal breaker for you to stop supporting CD and TR. Apparently, timed exclusivity and higher prices are not enough.
I'd stop supporting if it'd ever become permanent xbone exclusive without PC releases.

Tecstar70
27th Feb 2015, 20:53
I know your response wasn't addressed to me, but nevertheless, I'd like to answer. I read your arguments in the other thread and I think you have a point, but you seem to look at this issue from SE point of view and at the same time forget the Microsoft side. I think Microsoft did this deal for three main reasons: they want to sell consoles, they want to compete with Uncharted and, in my opinion the most important one, they want to establish Xbox as the system with better games than their competition. TR fits this plan perfectly, but only if the exclusivity deal is at least one year long. Anything shorter wouldn't have enough impact on their profits. A three months exclusivity can't really compete witch Uncharted and it also would fail to establish Xbox as the system which people will associate with Tomb Raider in the future. You also mentioned that SE wouldn't gain anything if they didn't release on PS. (I think a PC release is quite certain at this point.) I agree with you, but when I look at Capcom and Dead Rising 3 then I wonder why didn't they release their game on PS as of yet. It's either because the console exclusivity deal is still going on or they deemed the release as not profitable enough. The same thing could apply to Square Enix. My prediction is ROTTR is going to be released Holiday 2015 on Xbox, then around September-October 2016 on PC and 6 months later, in spring 2017, on PlayStation. And that would be a very, very long wait.

Evidence from a retailer who said that max benefit from deals of this type are mainly the first 90 days. There's MS's window. November, December, January, possibly February for the Christmas market. That's when MS make their sales and compete against PS4 and Uncharted. That's when SE ship a game that (hopefully) knocks the socks off everyone and people on other platforms start salivating. Beyond January MS's potential to sell Xboxes because of TR decreases as does SE's potential to ride the wave of publicity, so at that point MS have got what they want and it's SE's turn.

March/April - The earliest we will see it on PC/PS4. May/June at the very latest. Why? Because SE need to capitalise on the hype of the MS campaign and all the magazine and internet traffic being devoted to the game. Waiting any longer would run the risk of another big release coming along and overshadowing RotTR on PC/PS4. All those shiny new PS4's that sold at Christmas and all the current PS4 owners will be the target then. Big splash for the PS4 release, SE shift millions more copies. Overall big Xbox sales, big PS4 sales, big-ish PC sales. Job done.

Waiting a year does NOT make sense financially for either party. MS would have to shell out too much money to keep it exclusive for little return. SE lose sales if they don't get enough cash from MS. Remember both companies objective is to make as much money as possible.

That's my prediction and every time I type it out the more convinced I am that I will be proved right. (of course, I could be wrong but I believe the balance of probability is in my favour!)

s-jay2676
27th Feb 2015, 21:21
Evidence from a retailer who said that max benefit from deals of this type are mainly the first 90 days. There's MS's window. November, December, January, possibly February for the Christmas market. That's when MS make their sales and compete against PS4 and Uncharted. That's when SE ship a game that (hopefully) knocks the socks off everyone and people on other platforms start salivating. Beyond January MS's potential to sell Xboxes because of TR decreases as does SE's potential to ride the wave of publicity, so at that point MS have got what they want and it's SE's turn.

March/April - The earliest we will see it on PC/PS4. May/June at the very latest. Why? Because SE need to capitalise on the hype of the MS campaign and all the magazine and internet traffic being devoted to the game. Waiting any longer would run the risk of another big release coming along and overshadowing RotTR on PC/PS4. All those shiny new PS4's that sold at Christmas and all the current PS4 owners will be the target then. Big splash for the PS4 release, SE shift millions more copies. Overall big Xbox sales, big PS4 sales, big-ish PC sales. Job done.

Waiting a year does NOT make sense financially for either party. MS would have to shell out too much money to keep it exclusive for little return. SE lose sales if they don't get enough cash from MS. Remember both companies objective is to make as much money as possible.

That's my prediction and every time I type it out the more convinced I am that I will be proved right. (of course, I could be wrong but I believe the balance of probability is in my favour!)

Hypothetical question, though. What's gonna happen if CD misses the Holiday 2015 launch window? Microsoft wouldn't gain anything then. I doubt that MS is willing to take this risk. And if they wanna compete with Uncharted then both games would have to be released around the same time, at least in the same quarter and it's quite possible that Uncharted won't be released this year at all. And if Uncharted comes out April/May 2016 then it would cut right into the SE profits for the PS4 version of ROTTR and then all the magazine and internet traffic would need to be shared with Uncharted. I doubt that SE is willing to take this risk. More questions than answers at the moment. I guess, we'll see next year who is right.

Tecstar70
27th Feb 2015, 21:40
Hypothetical question, though. What's gonna happen if CD misses the Holiday 2015 launch window? Microsoft wouldn't gain anything then. I doubt that MS is willing to take this risk. And if they wanna compete with Uncharted then both games would have to be released around the same time, at least in the same quarter and it's quite possible that Uncharted won't be released this year at all. And if Uncharted comes out April/May 2016 then it would cut right into the SE profits for the PS4 version of ROTTR and then all the magazine and internet traffic would need to be shared with Uncharted. I doubt that SE is willing to take this risk. More questions than answers at the moment. I guess, we'll see next year who is right.

That is a very good point! My guess is that it not coming out is NOT an option. I reckon that part of MS's role is to ensure that it does come out on time. The can't miss Holiday 2015, its as simple as that. I would predict that to would need to go gold IE: release version ready, in September for everyone to be happy. If they miss that window then MS are screwed.

With regards to Uncharted being late, again that's a very good point. Currently the release date for that is October 2015, at least a month before RotTR. It benefits neither Naughty Dog or SE to go head to head. They will both be competing for the same space. My guess is that Naughty Dog will be doing their very best not to let that date slip either. With no PS4 version of RotR they will want to capitalise on the Christmas sales for U4. If it slipped until after Christmas it may have to compete with the PS4 version of RotTR and they won't want to do that. Again another win-win for SE and Naughty Dog. It's MS who want to get the new console owners away from Sony so sales of U4 won't bother them. It will be about convincing prospective console owners to go for Lara instead of Nathan.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
28th Feb 2015, 03:31
They managed to secure financial support from Microsoft while sill selling the game successfully on other systems. Why wouldn't they do it again in the future?

Because they realise it damages the brand for the community to be out there in vast numbers slating them. They know beyond doubt that another deal would be very strongly unpopular. I wonder if they knew how bad the response would be or expected more people to say great TR got more investment to make a better game. They may have thought for that MS's support would get a better reception.


Do you think Darrell sat down and had a long think how to best insult two-thirds of the fanbase because he dislikes fans, or what?

I don't think Darrell dislike the fans just has an apathy towards us. He is so wrapped up with his appreciation of Microsoft that he doesn't appreciate the TR fanbase and this attitude looks bad on TR. Is like there been a fight and rather than consoling the victim they are caring more about the bully's feelings.In his defence I don't think it was Darrell though said the quote you talk of.

I don't dislike them being positive about Microsoft and trying to explain the reasons behind the deal which is fair enough but I agree that this Q&A (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=146718) is turned into a gimmick by the churning out of pro Microsoft soundbites. Every answer shows no understanding of the thoughts of those fans involved in the backlash. You cannot say that 'We certainly didn’t intend to cause any confusion with the announcement' is a good way to refer to the fact they omitted to mention the deal wasn't permanent.


Perhaps, but in my opinion CD and SE have crossed a line and I won't be paying a cent for Rise of the Tomb Raider*. They made their choice and I made mine. The customer is the boss, people used to say. Well, that has changed a long time ago, but at least I'm still the boss of my wallet and I get to decide where the money from that wallet is going to go. And if my attitude will lead to TR becoming a Xbox exclusive, then so be it. There are and there will be other games to play.

This is going to be ace game and if you get the chance you should get it. I don't sympathise for what those at the top of CS/SE have done and I understand that but much of the money will go to PS and those who worked on the creative side irrespective of the deal politics so it not like all the money end up with Darrell and the others behind the deal.


TR fits this plan perfectly, but only if the exclusivity deal is at least one year long.

The 2013 DLC exclusivities were not that long so I estimate this deal will be less than a year. The big target is Christmas gaming market so as Tecstar said 3 to 6 months seem most probable before the potential interest in the game fades


It's MS who want to get the new console owners away from Sony so sales of U4 won't bother them. It will be about convincing prospective console owners to go for Lara instead of Nathan.

They see Nathan as a threat hence why they did this deal so you can bet they will be watching Uncharted 4 sales very closely. PS has been far more pivotal to Lara that Xbox so it's up to us to still promote Lara as still synonymous with PS/PC and not just an xbox icon whatever MS want us to think. If you get a PS in all likelihood you can get both Lara and Nathan.

Driber
28th Feb 2015, 09:21
The "boycott" would be against the PS copies of the game, not Xbox. Tbh this wasn't even an appeal to boycott the game at all.

" ROTTR finds its way to Sony's console in the end I will not buy it and I wish other PS players would do the same" sure sounded like one to me.


What I meant is that some people who were angry and felt betrayed and disappointed by SE and CD after the initial announcement, now, after they confirmed that it is in fact a timed exclusivity, act as if SE and CD are greatest companies ever. Everything is splendid for them. I don't think that such an attitude will change anything. But I'm not saying they should boycott the game. Everyone is supposed to make their own decisions, but maybe it wouldn't be so wrong to think for a moment before deciding.

Well I don't know these people you speak of. I haven't seen anyone here declaring CD as the greatest company ever since the MS deal. On the contrary, I've often seen people saying that they find it hard to get excited about TR10, even still to this very day throughout the recent new content drops.


Maybe you're one ot the people who owns every possible gaming platform,

FYI, I'm not.


but let's assume for a moment that you don't have a PS4. Would you really hurt if The Order 1886 would fail? Or Uncharted? Or the new Street Figher?

No, but that's because I'm not a fan of any of those games.


I don't own an Xbox and I don't play on PC. I play exclusively on PS and if ROTTR would fail I certainly wouldn't be celebrating while jumping up and down, but I wouldn't be getting sleepless nights over it, either.

I wasn't talking about sleepless nights kind of hurt. That's kinda extreme. Although I can imagine that some of the more bigger TR fans [I]would have sleepless nights if the franchise dies. For a lot of fans TR is a big part of their live.


Maybe this makes me a shallow and awful person, I don't know, but at least I'm honest.

Oh no, I don't think it makes you shallow nor awful. And I appreciate your honesty. I was just questioning the usefulness of discussing this topic with someone who claimed to be happy if the franchise died. Like, are we wasting our time trying to make you feel (a bit) more optimistic about the situation?

Tihocan
28th Feb 2015, 09:35
I wasn't talking about sleepless nights kind of hurt. That's kinda extreme. Although I can imagine that some of the more bigger TR fans would have sleepless nights if the franchise dies. For a lot of fans TR is a big part of their live.

I think I would die, just a little bit, on the inside.

Charlie_T_Raider
28th Feb 2015, 09:55
Well I don't know these people you speak of. I haven't seen anyone here declaring CD as the greatest company ever since the MS deal. On the contrary, I've often seen people saying that they find it hard to get excited about TR10, even still to this very day throughout the recent new content drops.

The content they have put out has been really well recieved. It's remarkable how they can make very popular content and then manage to mess up the distribution so bad that the total oppinion end up so negative. The series ending up dead would be just awful. Theonly thing worse than that is it becoming a perminant xbox exclusive which is both dead and haunting you as a ghost. Even now I don't see that happening but the deal they did this time was rotten of CD/SE. They won't be winning any popularity contests anytime soon from the fans.

Driber
28th Feb 2015, 10:41
I mean that a there's quite big group of people who says SE/CD went for the money MS which MS was "offering them". So they say SE/CD sold out and the're best buddies with MS now instead of supporting the whole fanbase of the game.

Ah that, gotcha. So what's your point there? No one is saying that this isn't happening. But you seem to be trying to equate this to specific numbers in terms of how the game will sell. I don't think you can do that.


Additional 9% are bureaus where people almost can't use the internet anyway (there're restrictions of which sites they can enter) so they're not counted in normal statistics.

Show me proof of this claim. I don't take "I just think it's like that" as a valid answer.


Apple is quite hated here. People don't like appstore where many apps are region locked and they don't support our country. Those who bought their products usually says it was a huge waste of money (Apple is extremely expensive) because they can't use it in its full potential.

Apple (and many other brands) have some people hating them in every country around the world. Show me proof that it's 90% of people in your country. I won't believe it until I see something better than mere speculation.


Opera was loved before they changed the engine.

Show me proof that people in your country massively stopped using Opera because of an "engine change" and not due to the massive ad campaigns from giants like Google pushing their products, like Chrome.


It would have sense if the government didn't switch to the OpenOffice as well. Many people have MS Office 1997, 2000 or even 2007, but they just don't like using those and never did. I didn't either. It's too heavy. I find OpenOffice much easier to use.

Our government switched from MS Office to Open Office as well. It's because of money - Open Office is free; MS Office is paid software. Your government switching to Open Office I'm guessing was all about the money as well, I'm willing to bet, and nothing about "MS hate". That wouldn't even make sense, actually. I could understand that some consumers might feel "hate" towards MS, but why on earth would a government massively change their office software due to harboring "bad feelings" towards a company. That sounds really far-fetched.

I've used both MS Office 97 and 2000, and I think neither were "heavy" nor hard to use. I actually find 2000 very easy to use and still use it to this very day without problems.


That would be impossible since these don't exist

Well then you can't really be making any claims about it if you don't have the evidence to back it up.


, but Linux is an open source system and people are switching to it not becuase it's for free, but because MS is starting to collect the data about their users. After PRISM affair I've read an article where it was stated that it's possible for Linux to outrun Windows in the next 5 - 8 years.

What?! You're now connecting PRISM to your claim that people in your country are massively leaving MS products? What on earth does PRISM have to do with Windows and MS Office?

PRISM is about collecting internet traffic data from people using certain websites and services. You know, websites and services that everyone uses regardless of what operating system or office software they use. PRISM targets sites and services like Google, YouTube, Hotmail, Yahoo, Skype, etc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/PRISM_Collection_Details.jpg

So how is switching from Windows to Linux or switching from MS Office to Open Office relevant to that? Are people on Linux not using Google, YouTube and Facebook?

As for Linux outrunning Windows in the next 5 to 8 years - I seriously doubt that.


I use MS (Win 7 and Vista), I don't hate the system per se, but I do find their policy questionable and I don't like many of their moves, but the same goes for any other company, PS included. Both of them have this stupid war where the ones that gets hurt are the customers.

True that.


Still, I wouldn't change Windows for Linux, even tho I prefer Android over WindowsPhone. I tried, but it's not my cup of tea.

Same here.


So they learned nothing about TR2013 sales, yes? PS&PC gamers bought a whole lot more copies than x360 and xbone.

I was responding to the hypothetical mass boycott scenario. I don't know why you are talking about the actual sales of TR9.


To this day, TR2013 was sold in 7.5 million copies (6.5 million copies were sold out during the first year), it's not really that much considering the game exist on the market for 2 years. They made the deal anyway. And it is a huge risk. If the exclusive will be timed for a year (most possible scenario) it'll cause more harm than good. Especially on TR's 20th anniversary where the majority of the fanbase won't be able to play the game.

7.5 million copies is not that much? You must be kidding. That's a huge success.

And what does the 20th anniversary have to do with anything? You think that people are going to be so much more angry that they can't play TR10 possibly for a year just because of the fact that the franchise started 20 years ago? How is that impacting anyone in a serious way?

Charlie_T_Raider
28th Feb 2015, 10:46
Just noticed in the Q and A they say long term support from MS as in 3-4 years. They really have no clue because many of us support the series over 16 years which makes that seem rather short. Now rather than the kudos MS gets for being 'long term supporters' they act like we don't exsist.

Tihocan
28th Feb 2015, 11:14
So how is switching from Windows to Linux or switching from MS Office to Open Office relevant to that? Are people on Linux not using Google, YouTube and Facebook?

As for Linux outrunning Windows in the next 5 to 8 years - I seriously doubt that.


This made me laugh. As a current Linux user, for the "average user" it makes a great server rack platform :)

The difference is "power". It can be often difficult to get Windows to play nice when doing advanced junk like servers and software compilation, where often it just works on Linux.

The other side of the coin is that because Linux is so desktop-fragmented (Ubuntu, Mate, Fedora, Slack... and so on) it's not ideal to take all these on, being so different. Windows is Windows* and for most people it's functional and familiar - and the corporate support for apps and particularly games is far stronger.

In short - Linux sucks as a user platform.

Same goes for phones, to a degree. An Apple user can go from 1 to 2 to 3 with little or no learning curve, but to go from Apple to Samsung it apples and oranges. Nobody really wants to have to learn stuff all over again - that's how Nokia survived in stasis for so long.

And yes, Linux OSs do have web browsers :lol:

*Which is why there was such a Win8 outcry - make it better, but don't mess with it

Driber
28th Feb 2015, 11:31
The customer is the boss, people used to say. Well, that has changed a long time ago

Well... even back in the day when "customer was king", we still had people like this:

http://media.tumblr.com/187bf77f71e2c64c7e1cc8ec551fad1a/tumblr_inline_mpougyUDig1qz4rgp.png




Couldn't resist :D


This made me laugh. As a current Linux user, for the "average user" it makes a great server rack platform :)

The difference is "power". It can be often difficult to get Windows to play nice when doing advanced junk like servers and software compilation, where often it just works on Linux.

The other side of the coin is that because Linux is so desktop-fragmented (Ubuntu, Mate, Fedora, Slack... and so on) it's not ideal to take all these on, being so different. Windows is Windows* and for most people it's functional and familiar - and the corporate support for apps and particularly games is far stronger.

In short - Linux sucks as a user platform.

Same goes for phones, to a degree. An Apple user can go from 1 to 2 to 3 with little or no learning curve, but to go from Apple to Samsung it apples and oranges. Nobody really wants to have to learn stuff all over again - that's how Nokia survived in stasis for so long.

And yes, Linux OSs do have web browsers :vlol:

*Which is why there was such a Win8 outcry - make it better, but don't mess with it

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Linux as of right now is an OS for the power user, not for the casual user (which makes up for... like what.... 99%? :whistle:)

Some of the mainstream distros have been trying to make things more user friendly, with fancy graphics and all that jazz, but it's still miles light years away from Windows.

And yeah, I know about Linux web browsers, heh. I've tried some. They were horrible :lol:

d1n0_xD
28th Feb 2015, 11:38
I think I would die, just a little bit, on the inside.

Yeah, me too. Like I already said in another thread, I want it to go on forever, I don't care how long it is between each game, the longer the better, but I want it to always exist, because it always existed for me. But I don't really see it dying, it's a big name, it can only change developers :)

Tihocan
28th Feb 2015, 12:13
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Linux as of right now is an OS for the power user, not for the casual user (which makes up for... like what.... 99%? :whistle:)

Some of the mainstream distros have been trying to make things more user friendly, with fancy graphics and all that jazz, but it's still miles light years away from Windows.

And yeah, I know about Linux web browsers, heh. I've tried some. They were horrible :lol:
I'd say it's a bit more - perhaps even 10%. But inconsequential nonetheless.
Ubuntu is decent enough as a desktop. Problem is, if a casual user needs to install something a bit more delicate or they run into a problem, the learning curve is massive, frightening and potentially system destructive. Sudo rm -rf / home/user/folder oops system gone.

I use the standard chrome/firefox combo - nothing else.


Yeah, me too. Like I already said in another thread, I want it to go on forever
:friends:

dayoum
28th Feb 2015, 12:46
I think I would die, just a little bit, on the inside.
Same here.


Apple (and many other brands) have some people hating them in every country around the world. Show me proof that it's 90% of people in your country. I won't believe it until I see something better than mere speculation.
If an article has over 2000 comments, most of them are hateful, I'd say the "hate", or to be more precise "dislike" does exist and is quite popular. The literall hate does exist around Android users. I remember a poll with a question "why won't you buy an iPhone?", over 55% of the answers were "because I hate it".

I've never said it was 90%, it was your assumption ;) If you can't use something in its full potential, do you like it or is it frustrating you? Yes, there're Apple lovers here too. They usually think having Apple says they're better than everyone else and they call those who don't want and/or don't like Apple produts "filthy peasants" :nut: , which is one of the reasons why other people dislike Apple too. But usually it's because appstore and iTunes aren't really "friendly" with our region and Apple isn't really innovative.

Opera is extremely popular on mobile and tablets (along with Chrome), but not on PCs anymore. People refused to switch from Opera v12 to the new one and after v12 stopped working on many sites, most of users switched to Firefox. I was Opera user too, for a very long time, but I switched to Chrome before they changed the engine. I find it more suitable for me and I tried to use new Opera too, but it's just... meh. I don't like the design and bookmarking system. Although I'll try Vivaldi (from Opera developer). Many ex-Opera users are hopefull with Vivaldi.


Our government switched from MS Office to Open Office as well. It's because of money - Open Office is free; MS Office is paid software. Your government switching to Open Office I'm guessing was all about the money as well, I'm willing to bet, and nothing about "MS hate".
They still have MS Office on their computers (I was a resident in a couple of places during my uni-years). They just don't use it anymore.


I've used both MS Office 97 and 2000, and I think neither were "heavy" nor hard to use. I actually find 2000 very easy to use and still use it to this very day without problems.
I've used 97 and I had 2000 at school. It was a disaster. I prefered to use simple WordPad instead of MS Office... until I found OO :D


What?! You're now connecting PRISM to your claim that people in your country are massively leaving MS products? What on earth does PRISM have to do with Windows and MS Office?
So how is switching from Windows to Linux or switching from MS Office to Open Office relevant to that?
Don't ask me how is switching from Windows to Linux relevant to that bc I have no idea, but it IS one of the reasons. It IS funny and we can laugh as much as we want, but you know... paranoia is paranoia, ne? ;) Btw, not only people in my country are switching to Linux because of all this BS. Just gonna leave a couple of articles in English here:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/China-Starts-Windows-Eradication-15-of-Govt-PCs-to-Switch-to-Linux-Every-Year-463393.shtml
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2491481/pg1?disclaimer=1
http://www.windowscentral.com/german-government-calls-security-within-windows-8-unacceptable-continues-switching-their-machines
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2421733,00.asp
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/germans-windows-xp-ubuntu,news-17558.html
https://prism-break.org/en/categories/windows/
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/windows-8-prism-edition
http://www.comparebusinessproducts.com/fyi/50-places-linux-running-you-might-not-expect


7.5 million copies is not that much? You must be kidding. That's a huge success.
Well... TR'13 hit 1 million sales in the first 48h while Uncharted 3 had sold almost 4 million copies on day one. How MS see TR as a great competition to Uncharted, I have no idea ;)


And what does the 20th anniversary have to do with anything? You think that people are going to be so much more angry that they can't play TR10 possibly for a year just because of the fact that the franchise started 20 years ago? How is that impacting anyone in a serious way?
20th anniversary is a big one, just like 10th was. It hurts more that we probably won't be able to celebrate it with the big title.


Ubuntu is decent enough as a desktop.
If I had to work on Linux, I'd chose Xubuntu instead of Ubuntu. Dunno why, but Xubuntu seems to be easier to work on :)

s-jay2676
28th Feb 2015, 16:43
" ROTTR finds its way to Sony's console in the end I will not buy it and I wish other PS players would do the same" sure sounded like one to me.

Fair enough. But let me assure you this wasn't supposed to be a boycott. What would I gain from a boycott of the game anyway?


Well I don't know these people you speak of. I haven't seen anyone here declaring CD as the greatest company ever since the MS deal. On the contrary, I've often seen people saying that they find it hard to get excited about TR10, even still to this very day throughout the recent new content drops.

I admit the "greatest company" part was an exaggeration but the initial response was much more hostile. And you're right, some people are saying they aren't excited about ROTTR but despite that they're still gonna buy it.


I wasn't talking about sleepless nights kind of hurt. That's kinda extreme. Although I can imagine that some of the more bigger TR fans [I]would have sleepless nights if the franchise dies. For a lot of fans TR is a big part of their live.

If SE would realize that this whole deal cost them more that they gained in the end and they'd say it wasn't wort it, that would make me really happy. However, I don't think that's going to happen.


Oh no, I don't think it makes you shallow nor awful. And I appreciate your honesty. I was just questioning the usefulness of discussing this topic with someone who claimed to be happy if the franchise died. Like, are we wasting our time trying to make you feel (a bit) more optimistic about the situation?

I don't think you're wasting your time and I appreciate your effort. I have to warn you, though. You won't be able to change my mind regarding purchasing ROTTR. This ship has sailed and my decision stands. I know I'm stubborn but that's how it is.

Driber
1st Mar 2015, 00:34
If an article has over 2000 comments, most of them are hateful, I'd say the "hate", or to be more precise "dislike" does exist

So? I never claimed that it doesn't exist.


and is quite popular.

How popular? Give me reliable numbers.

A random article on the internet with a bunch of comments doesn't speak for the whole of a country.


The literall hate does exist around Android users. I remember a poll with a question "why won't you buy an iPhone?", over 55% of the answers were "because I hate it".

A random poll on the internet doesn't speak for the whole of a country.


I've never said it was 90%, it was your assumption ;)

It wasn't an assumption, I referenced actual statistics. Your 1% was an assumption. You literally said "maybe 1% of population is still using IE", meaning that you were going on a feeling, rather than on actual numbers.


If you can't use something in its full potential, do you like it or is it frustrating you?

That depends on the product what it is that I can't use to its full potential. Can't give a generalized answer to that.



Yes, there're Apple lovers here too. They usually think having Apple says they're better than everyone else and they call those who don't want and/or don't like Apple produts "filthy peasants" :nut: , which is one of the reasons why other people dislike Apple too.

PC owners do exactly the same with their "PC master race" and "console peasants" BS. Don't be fooled thinking that only Apple users can be douchebags :p


But usually it's because appstore and iTunes aren't really "friendly" with our region and Apple isn't really innovative.

Apple isn't innovative? lol, yeah right.


Opera is extremely popular on mobile and tablets (along with Chrome), but not on PCs anymore. People refused to switch from Opera v12 to the new one and after v12 stopped working on many sites, most of users switched to Firefox. I was Opera user too, for a very long time, but I switched to Chrome before they changed the engine. I find it more suitable for me and I tried to use new Opera too, but it's just... meh. I don't like the design and bookmarking system. Although I'll try Vivaldi (from Opera developer). Many ex-Opera users are hopefull with Vivaldi.

Right, so Opera lost marketshare because of bad design decisions, not because of any "hate".


They still have MS Office on their computers (I was a resident in a couple of places during my uni-years). They just don't use it anymore.

What's your point? Was that supposed to be a counter rebuttal to my rebuttal to your assertion that your government switched from MS Office to Open Office due to "hate"? If so, I fail to see your argument.


I've used 97 and I had 2000 at school. It was a disaster. I prefered to use simple WordPad instead of MS Office... until I found OO :D

Maybe you just had crap teachers :D


Don't ask me how is switching from Windows to Linux relevant to that bc I have no idea, but it IS one of the reasons.

Earlier you said to Tecstar that you "don't have time to explain MS-hate". It looks to me that you simply can't explain it. It looks to me that you're just pulling a bunch of "feelings", speculation and anectdotes together to try to build your case that the SE-MS xbox deal will fail. But you have nothing really solid.


It IS funny and we can laugh as much as we want, but you know... paranoia is paranoia, ne? ;)

Yeah, and I'm just waiting for you to involve 9/11 and Bengazi into this discussion about a videogame exclusivity deal :p


Btw, not only people in my country are switching to Linux because of all this BS. Just gonna leave a couple of articles in English here:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/China-Starts-Windows-Eradication-15-of-Govt-PCs-to-Switch-to-Linux-Every-Year-463393.shtml
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2491481/pg1?disclaimer=1
http://www.windowscentral.com/german-government-calls-security-within-windows-8-unacceptable-continues-switching-their-machines
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2421733,00.asp
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/germans-windows-xp-ubuntu,news-17558.html
https://prism-break.org/en/categories/windows/
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/windows-8-prism-edition
http://www.comparebusinessproducts.com/fyi/50-places-linux-running-you-might-not-expect

First link - the article says nothing about any concrete reasons. They just vagualy mention "security concerns". Come back to me when they have something else other than paranoia and if they find actual find some kind of backdoor in Windows.

Second link - really?! A forum thread on a site about UFOs, conspiracy theories and self-proclaimed fringe lunatics?! Oh brother.

I'm not even going to bother checking the rest of those links :rolleyes:


Well... TR'13 hit 1 million sales in the first 48h while Uncharted 3 had sold almost 4 million copies on day one. How MS see TR as a great competition to Uncharted, I have no idea ;)

UC3 was marketed better. Simple as that.


20th anniversary is a big one, just like 10th was.

What major things happened in the community with the 10th one?


It hurts more that we probably won't be able to celebrate it with the big title.

Or maybe it'll be the reverse - fans not caring much about the 20th anniversary because of the TR10 xbox deal.

Driber
1st Mar 2015, 01:35
Fair enough. But let me assure you this wasn't supposed to be a boycott.

Alright then, moving on :)


I admit the "greatest company" part was an exaggeration but the initial response was much more hostile. And you're right, some people are saying they aren't excited about ROTTR but despite that they're still gonna buy it.

True, the community's initial response was much heavier, but then the "full exclusive" turned into a "timed exclusive", which took a lot of steam off, which in turn allowed people to calm down somewhat and eventually being open to optimism again.

I'm betting things would be a lot more grim right now if that announcement about the timed exclusive never happened and if we all would still be dealing with a full exclusive right now.


If SE would realize that this whole deal cost them more that they gained in the end and they'd say it wasn't wort it, that would make me really happy. However, I don't think that's going to happen.

I agree, that scenario is extremely unlikely.


I don't think you're wasting your time and I appreciate your effort. I have to warn you, though. You won't be able to change my mind regarding purchasing ROTTR. This ship has sailed and my decision stands. I know I'm stubborn but that's how it is.

Wasn't trying to get you to purchase the game - that is of course entirely your own decision. Just trying to bring in some perspective into the discussion which hopefully will make people feel a little less sour about the whole situation.

But duly noted :)

dayoum
1st Mar 2015, 02:33
How popular? Give me reliable numbers.

A random article on the internet with a bunch of comments doesn't speak for the whole of a country.
I'm not going to count negative comments under all of the Apple-related articles, sorry. But the same thing we should be able to say about ROTTR fans, right? If we don't have the numbers, how do we know that majority of the fandom hates the deal? Just because people talk about it in the comments under random articles and on some gaming forums doesn't mean that most of them hate the situation, right? Well, we all know most of us hate this situation and nobody needs any numbers to prove it.


PC owners do exactly the same with their "PC master race" and "console peasants" BS. Don't be fooled thinking that only Apple users can be douchebags
True and this is usually one of the reasons why console owners dislike PC gamers ;) And the other way around, console gamers can be douches as well.


Apple isn't innovative? lol, yeah right.
This is going to be IMO:
Compared to Android? Nope. Compared to Windows? I'm not sure, but I think not. Computers with Windows have better specifications so Mac users can't enjoy games, for example. They still can play, it's just not as great as on Windows. Graphics are worse and the game seems to work slower. iPods are fine, iPads would've been great if appstore didn't mess up with "region locked" apps.


Right, so Opera lost marketshare because of bad design decisions, not because of any "hate".
I've never said people hate Opera. I said they got mad after the engine had changed and they switched to Firefox. It's not the hate.


Maybe you just had crap teachers
Or crap computers [at school] :P No, but seriously, I had to work with Word, Excell and PowerPoint and I never liked it. I really do find OO more friendly for me :)


I'm not even going to bother checking the rest of those links
PRISM was one of the reasons, I added a few more links about Linux growing up as a system. I also said it's paranoia (abut PRISM) so don't be surprised what kind of forums and sites I've found around the internet ;) I'm going to quote a few things from those links anyway:

The City of Munich does not want a vulnerable populace, and has adopted a fairly aggressive stance on getting XP fans switched over to Ubuntu. [...] It's worth noting that the City of Munich voted to switch all government systems to Linux more than a decade ago, and has done its best to excise Microsoft from city computers in the last 10 years.

---

Do you trust Microsoft’s latest operating system, Windows 8? If you are the Federal Republic of Germany, the answer to that question is "no". Last week internal documents from IT professionals within the government showed a strong rejection of the new operating system calling it "unacceptable for the federal administration and the operators of critical infrastructure".
The German government feels technology within the latest operating system create a dangerous backdoor that could allow access to confidential information. With the United States’ Nation Security Agency in the not so positive spotlight recently, concerns of keeping confidential data secure is at an all-time high.

---

Linux is far more than just a fringe OS. In fact, it's running in quite a few more places than you probably suspect. Below are fifty places Linux is running today in place of Windows or Mac.

---

Microsoft is intercepting your stuff and sending it to the NSA (and the CIA and the FBI). [...] Switch to GNU/Linux, and stop using Microsoft and Apple products. Proprietary software is bad for your freedom and privacy in many ways, from leaky security to deliberate backdoors for the NSA.


What major things happened in the community with the 10th one?
Those who bought PS3 had to wait 5 years to play TLR on it. PS3 premiered the same year as TLR did and there was a group of people who didn't own PS2 or PC and didn't buy TLR right after premiere because they were hoping to play this game right after they bought the console or at least early on 2007, but... TLR got released as a part of The TR Trilogy collection 5 years later. In the comments under a few ROTTR-related articles, I've seen a few people still remember it (and still are not over it, lol). It wasn't THAT big like MS-SE-CD deal, (nothing can beat that), but it was there and I think every gaming magazine I've read at that time wrote about it. And frankly, I can't remember anything else with release-dates of TR games that would be an issue. Only TLR for PS3 and now "timed exclusive". This better not end up as "every 10-year tradition"


Or maybe it'll be the reverse - fans not caring much about the 20th anniversary because of the TR10 xbox deal.
I doubt longime fans would forget about the anniversary. I'm almost sure MS will use the anniversary and lower the price, promoting the game again on sales so "fans could celebrate".


True, the community's initial response was much heavier, but then the "full exclusive" turned into a "timed exclusive", which took a lot of steam off, which in turn allowed people to calm down somewhat and eventually being open to optimism again.
I would be optimistic too if I didn't know they made something exactly opposite to a few games that were supposed to be "timed exclusive" but got released as "full exclusive." And Spencer still says he doesn't own the IPs of these games so... yeah, like I said earlier, I'd rather not have a very high hopes so they won't get crushed.

Error96_
1st Mar 2015, 03:08
If you feel insulted by that answer, I can't make you feel otherwise, but you can't say that that answer was designed to be insulting. That just makes no sense. Do you think Darrell sat down and had a long think how to best insult two-thirds of the fanbase because he dislikes fans, or what?

Also, what Tecstar said - "Just because they are focussing on delivering a great game for Xbox doesn't mean they aren't dong the same for other platforms."

All CD's press releases seem to be just used as a platform to suck up to MS rather than actually address or appease the fans. Evading every question and giving a truck load of compliments to the company who are stealing TR going to make those not playing the game feel any less annoyed about it. In all of them trying to say Microsoft is great I still really have no idea what MS are bringing that makes it so worthwhile. I think Darrell has so much attention towards trying to say something that will make MS happy that he forget he is addressing the wider TR fans. I do think they are already making PS/PC versions but to imply we are only focussed on making a game for someone else makes me feel unwelcome.


Just trying to bring in some perspective into the discussion which hopefully will make people feel a little less sour about the whole situation.

I feel CD are the only ones who can make the fans feel less sour and more positive but some either not putting in enough effort or have their hands tied by those same people. It isn't just on the deal as the issue of CD not caring about fans is proving like the equivalent of the poisoned status condition to them and this could be remedied so easily by just engaging more. Find a more positive thing to talk about so the CD can show their enthusiasm for TR and the fans without having to mention MS in the same sentence. Darrell could show himself to be not be so bad by doing one of the podcasts to say how he got into TR and what are his favourite aspects so he gets perceived as a TR fan rather than just about the business.

Murphdawg1
1st Mar 2015, 05:04
All CD's press releases seem to be just used as a platform to suck up to MS rather than actually address or appease the fans. Evading every question and giving a truck load of compliments to the company who are stealing TR going to make those not playing the game feel any less annoyed about it. In all of them trying to say Microsoft is great I still really have no idea what MS are bringing that makes it so worthwhile. I think Darrell has so much attention towards trying to say something that will make MS happy that he forget he is addressing the wider TR fans. I do think they are already making PS/PC versions but to imply we are only focussed on making a game for someone else makes me feel unwelcome.



I feel CD are the only ones who can make the fans feel less sour and more positive but some either not putting in enough effort or have their hands tied by those same people. It isn't just on the deal as the issue of CD not caring about fans is proving like the equivalent of the poisoned status condition to them and this could be remedied so easily by just engaging more. Find a more positive thing to talk about so the CD can show their enthusiasm for TR and the fans without having to mention MS in the same sentence. Darrell could show himself to be not be so bad by doing one of the podcasts to say how he got into TR and what are his favourite aspects so he gets perceived as a TR fan rather than just about the business.

They made their bed now they have to lie in it. The deal will be the 800 lb elephant in the room, the longer they wait to address it the larger it will grow.

d1n0_xD
1st Mar 2015, 09:12
All CD's press releases seem to be just used as a platform to suck up to MS rather than actually address or appease the fans. Evading every question and giving a truck load of compliments to the company who are stealing TR going to make those not playing the game feel any less annoyed about it. In all of them trying to say Microsoft is great I still really have no idea what MS are bringing that makes it so worthwhile. I think Darrell has so much attention towards trying to say something that will make MS happy that he forget he is addressing the wider TR fans. I do think they are already making PS/PC versions but to imply we are only focussed on making a game for someone else makes me feel unwelcome.

Well, that's how contracts go, I guess. I don't think they're that stupid to have PC/PS4 version full of bugs or lower graphics or something. Saying Xbox an X amount of time will change someone's mind to actually buy XBOX if they were on the fence, and that, ultimately, is the goal of the deal, IMO.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 10:34
People just love conspiracy theories, intrigue, corruption etc etc as it makes a good story and gives them something to really ***** about. I really do think people are making more of this than is actually there.
Sure, feel insulted, feel angry, feel upset. Those are totally valid responses. Just don't turn it into a corruption riddled vendetta, which is how people are portraying it. Its is really VERY SIMPLE.

MS want a big title to sell their Xboxes.
SE want to increase their Xbox profile.
MS pay SE for an exclusivity period.
SE get cash and help with ensuring the game is delivered in time.
MS get a big name for the Christmas market
SE get to sell the game on other platforms after The Deal(tm) ends
While The Deal(tm) is on OF COURSE CD are going to mention MS. OF COURSE they aren't going to mention other platforms.
Of course they aren't going to talk about the timing,
THEY CAN'T UNDERMINE THE DEAL(tm).


You will feel how you feel but turning it into The X-Files or The Wolf Of Wall Street is nonsense. I just wish people would get some perspective on it.

Anyone who works for a large organisation and has visibility in the right places know that its hard enough running that organisation keeping things going, let alone concocting and implementing great schemes and conspiracies like a Bond villain!

Larafan1996
1st Mar 2015, 11:50
"MS want a big title to sell their Xboxes. " then they should create something of their own for once.
"SE want to increase their Xbox profile." by decreasing their ps and pc profile...
"MS get a big name for the Christmas market" that they were already going to have anyway making it a huge waste of everyones time
"THEY CAN'T UNDERMINE THE DEAL(tm)." they already have, just 1 day after the announcement the deal has a duration.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12124-Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider-Exclusive-On-Xbox-One-Has-Major-Issues

"Microsoft publicly announced the limited duration

The whole point of a deal like this is to sell consoles. The idea is that some die-hard Tomb Raider fan will be willing to pony up for an Xbox One if that's the only way they can play the game. But if you announce that the exclusive is of a limited duration, then consumers know they can save themselves a few hundred bucks by just waiting it out.

Even more strange is that Microsoft was the one to explicitly announce that the exclusive was limited. I can't imagine why they did this. Sure, I can understand why the developer would want to let their fans know, but for Microsoft there was nothing to be gained and everything to lose by coming out and admitting that you won't need to buy an Xbox One to get the game. It undercuts the only thing they have to gain in this deal: The potential to sell consoles."

http://kotaku.com/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-isnt-really-an-xbox-exclusive-1620772963

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/microsoft-admits-xboxs-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-exc/1100-6421700/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/08/13/microsofts-xbox-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-deal-is-a-timed-exclusive/

"They “win” by creating a worse experience for their competition, not necessarily a better one for their own customers."

No one has to make conspiracy theories up it's all very transparent, http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/news/pdf/15q2slides.pdf why defend this as a Tomb Raider fan?

The xbox division doesn't have the talent to create a game like Tomb Raider so they did what they always do in those situations.
Artificially trying to force a change in this market has never worked for them in the past (even their most recent big attempt with Titanfall didn't change anything) so why do they keep doing it? Tri-ace did Star Ocean 4 with Square "exclusively for xbox" last gen they are now gone because of that deal. Crytek did Ryse for them and now they are in trouble too.

d1n0_xD
1st Mar 2015, 12:34
"MS want a big title to sell their Xboxes. " then they should create something of their own for once.

Well, they should, but you and I both know it's easier this way.


"SE want to increase their Xbox profile." by decreasing their ps and pc profile...

Not necessarily.


"MS get a big name for the Christmas market" that they were already going to have anyway making it a huge waste of everyones time.

It's always better to have a bigger market.


"THEY CAN'T UNDERMINE THE DEAL(tm)." they already have, just 1 day after the announcement the deal has a duration.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12124-Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider-Exclusive-On-Xbox-One-Has-Major-Issues

"Microsoft publicly announced the limited duration

The whole point of a deal like this is to sell consoles. The idea is that some die-hard Tomb Raider fan will be willing to pony up for an Xbox One if that's the only way they can play the game. But if you announce that the exclusive is of a limited duration, then consumers know they can save themselves a few hundred bucks by just waiting it out.

Even more strange is that Microsoft was the one to explicitly announce that the exclusive was limited. I can't imagine why they did this. Sure, I can understand why the developer would want to let their fans know, but for Microsoft there was nothing to be gained and everything to lose by coming out and admitting that you won't need to buy an Xbox One to get the game. It undercuts the only thing they have to gain in this deal: The potential to sell consoles."

Well, since the point is to sell consoles, you got to hit that balance. XBox exclusive only = risking not getting enough sales for both the console and the game, since fans would be angry. The game for everyone = Xbox not selling. Announcing timed exclusivity = less angry fans, more chance that some fans would like to get it early = more Xbox sales.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 12:52
"MS want a big title to sell their Xboxes. " then they should create something of their own for once.
Maybe, but personal opinion doesn't change the fact.


"SE want to increase their Xbox profile." by decreasing their ps and pc profile...
This won't be know until after the sales figures are in.


"MS get a big name for the Christmas market" that they were already going to have anyway making it a huge waste of everyones time
But it would not have been exclusive to them for the Christmas market


"THEY CAN'T UNDERMINE THE DEAL(tm)." they already have, just 1 day after the announcement the deal has a duration.
Ok, "They can't undermine he deal any more than they might have already done by announcing it was timed".



The whole point of a deal like this is to sell consoles.
Correct. And games.


The idea is that some die-hard Tomb Raider fan will be willing to pony up for an Xbox One if that's the only way they can play the game. But if you announce that the exclusive is of a limited duration, then consumers know they can save themselves a few hundred bucks by just waiting it out.
Exactly. SOME die-hard TR fans MIGHT. The Deal(tm) is not aimed at die-hard TR fans though. If consumers decide to wait it out then MS lose, which is why The Deal(tm) cannot be undermined.



Even more strange is that Microsoft was the one to explicitly announce that the exclusive was limited. I can't imagine why they did this. Sure, I can understand why the developer would want to let their fans know, but for Microsoft there was nothing to be gained and everything to lose by coming out and admitting that you won't need to buy an Xbox One to get the game.
It's not unusual to have timed exclusivity. Maybe it was about damage limitation. Maybe SE pressured them into saying something. We don't know and we probably never will. Doesn't change anything though, whatever the reason.



It undercuts the only thing they have to gain in this deal: The potential to sell consoles."
No it doesn't. People who are casual buyers will be swayed by marketing. The mums, dads, grandparents who want a gift for little Johnny/jenny could easily be swayed.



No one has to make conspiracy theories up it's all very transparent, http://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/ne...15q2slides.pdf why defend this as a Tomb Raider fan?

I am not defending it. I am applying common sense to it.


The xbox division doesn't have the talent to create a game like Tomb Raider so they did what they always do in those situations.

So what?


Artificially trying to force a change in this market has never worked for them in the past (even their most recent big attempt with Titanfall didn't change anything) so why do they keep doing it?
If every marketing campaign that failed resulted in a company not bothering every company at some point would close down.
Its another marketing campaign. That's what companies do.


Tri-ace did Star Ocean 4 with Square "exclusively for xbox" last gen they are now gone because of that deal. Crytek did Ryse for them and now they are in trouble too.

Where is your evidence that both of these issues are down to Xbox exclusivity and how do you forsee the same will happen to TR being that none of us know the full terms of The Deal(tm).

dayoum
1st Mar 2015, 13:47
"MS want a big title to sell their Xboxes. " then they should create something of their own for once.
"SE want to increase their Xbox profile." by decreasing their ps and pc profile...
"MS get a big name for the Christmas market" that they were already going to have anyway making it a huge waste of everyones time
"THEY CAN'T UNDERMINE THE DEAL(tm)." they already have, just 1 day after the announcement the deal has a duration.
True x4.

I also find these very true:

Yes, the exclusive is of limited duration. But even so, there's a cost to going exclusive. Sales will be lower overall. We can argue over the importance of marketing, but it's clear that the publishers believe that it's crucial to making a game sell. They sometimes spend as much on marketing as they do on making the game itself, which means marketing is so important that they would rather have an ad campaign than another whole video game to sell. So (using their own logic, since we don't have reliable sales numbers) releasing on the other platforms months or years later means that they will either have to do a second ad campaign (which is crazy expensive) or release with limited marketing, thus hurting their sales on the largest platform. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12124-Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider-Exclusive-On-Xbox-One-Has-Major-Issues

The situation is win-win for MS (they get the game and they might get a bit more xb sales), but not for SE/CD (they will have to pay for their own ads, but they already lost some potential customers because of the deal and many people will wait to buy the game for a lower price or even on sales when it'll cost 5$ because "if you don't respect your customers, you won't be successful".


Where is your evidence that both of these issues are down to Xbox exclusivity and how do you forsee the same will happen to TR being that none of us know the full terms of The Deal(tm).
No idea about Star Ocean 4, but Ryse was supposed to be timed exclusive so at least this part is because of xb exclusivity.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 13:52
True x4.

I also find these very true:

Yes, the exclusive is of limited duration. But even so, there's a cost to going exclusive. Sales will be lower overall. We can argue over the importance of marketing, but it's clear that the publishers believe that it's crucial to making a game sell. They sometimes spend as much on marketing as they do on making the game itself, which means marketing is so important that they would rather have an ad campaign than another whole video game to sell. So (using their own logic, since we don't have reliable sales numbers) releasing on the other platforms months or years later means that they will either have to do a second ad campaign (which is crazy expensive) or release with limited marketing, thus hurting their sales on the largest platform. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12124-Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider-Exclusive-On-Xbox-One-Has-Major-Issues

The situation is win-win for MS (they get the game and they might get a bit more xb sales), but not for SE/CD (they will have to pay for their own ads, but they already lost some potential customers because of the deal and many people will wait to buy the game for a lower price or even on sales when it'll cost 5$ or so).


No idea about Star Ocean 4, but Ryse was supposed to be timed exclusive so at least this part is because of xb exclusivity.

Pure speculation and personal opinion on both counts.
The time between the exclusivity deal I admit may be crucial in terms of sales and marketing, but we don't know what that is yet.
Why did Ryses exclusivity to Xbox result in Crytek being in trouble?

dayoum
1st Mar 2015, 14:22
Why did Ryses exclusivity to Xbox result in Crytek being in trouble?
"Trying to confine the problem rather than tackling it is not the way to go about this anymore; it's too big now," said one current Crytek employee. "Honest communication, inclusion, and a work environment based on trust could have gone a long way, and may have stopped people from leaving."

In March of this year, according to four people who have worked at Crytek Frankfurt, paychecks came two weeks late. Though missed paychecks were not an anomaly for Crytek—the company has been late on payments a few times over the past few years, two sources say—this was particularly unusual because of the circumstances surrounding it

Then, in February, word came down that Crytek would no longer be working with Microsoft to make Ryse 2, according to three employees. Crytek's work on the game was cancelled—because of a conflict over who would own rights to the franchise, those employees say—and Microsoft would no longer be sending them checks.

(When asked about this, Ryse publisher Microsoft sent me a statement saying they have "nothing to announce about the future of the franchise at this time." I don't know whether or not Microsoft can or will make a Ryse sequel with another developer.)

"Suddenly the direction everyone saw us go in was not that clear anymore," one current Crytek employee said in an e-mail. "It was obvious that we didn't have any big time publishers at our back to finance our development... A lot of people started to get frustrated then (and started to look for other work), as the strategy was not clear to the employees."
http://kotaku.com/sources-crytek-not-paying-staff-on-time-ryse-sequel-d-1594967505

Apparently, in exchange for funding Ryse 2's development, Microsoft wanted to take over the Ryse intellectual property, something Crytek couldn't agree to, so both parties decided not to continue. Retaining IP is important for independent developers, as we've seen from the likes of Bungie with Destiny and Respawn with Titanfall.

This, after German magazine GameStar said Ryse: Son of Rome's development was a "disaster".

[...]

Crytek Budapest, the original developer of Ryse, suffered around 50 redundancies after Microsoft had Crytek shift development of the game from Hungary to its Frankfurt office in Germany, effectively rebooting it as a controller-based Xbox One launch title.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-26-cryteks-ryse-2-canned-as-financial-struggle-spreads-to-shanghai

Larafan1996
1st Mar 2015, 14:44
The development was a mess because Microsoft at first they wanted a good game for the 360 to show off the kinect but the kinect isn't responsive enough to play traditional style real action games so halfway through it was completely changed into a different kind of game for a different machine as a launch title for their next gen xbox. Because of this the original team at Crytek was hit with 50 redundancies.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-26-cryteks-ryse-2-canned-as-financial-struggle-spreads-to-shanghai

Making a launch game is always a problem because specs moving during development but they had to create something completely different from what they had been asked to work on so it got to e3 and they didn't even have a lot of their combat systems ready due to trying to get the visuals where they wanted (which in the end they couldn't because the machine isn't powerful enough leaving them with a 900p res). Along with this Microsoft wanted to take the ip rights for itself which Crytek wouldn't agree to leading to a conflict between the 2 cancelling the sequel.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 14:58
The development was a mess because Microsoft at first they wanted a good game for the 360 to show off the kinect but the kinect isn't responsive enough to play traditional style real action games so halfway through it was completely changed into a different kind of game for a different machine as a launch title for their next gen xbox. Because of this the original team at Crytek was hit with 50 redundancies.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-26-cryteks-ryse-2-canned-as-financial-struggle-spreads-to-shanghai

Making a launch game is always a problem because specs moving during development but they had to create something completely different from what they had been asked to work on so it got to e3 and they didn't even have a lot of their combat systems ready due to trying to get the visuals where they wanted (which in the end they couldn't because the machine isn't powerful enough leaving them with a 900p res). Along with this Microsoft wanted to take the ip rights for itself which Crytek wouldn't agree to leading to a conflict between the 2 cancelling the sequel.

Sounds pretty messy. Also sounds like there were certain elements to the deal with Crytek that don't appear to apply here.
Ryse was a new IP designed as a launch title for a new console, so double the pressure there. The backing by MS was welcomed by Crytek initially but the nature of the game changed and the resulting game wasn't as good as it could have been which is pretty likely if you move the goalposts half way through development. But without MS's cash it sounds like Crytek would have been in trouble anyway, or am I misinterpreting things?

While this is interesting, again it is speculation as to whether the terms of The Deal(tm) are similar with SE and what impact the terms may have after the game is out,

I would say that just because it's 900p that doesn't mean the visuals can't be good!

Murphdawg1
1st Mar 2015, 15:55
Why hasn't Crytek put Ryse on the PS4? I'm sure there's people that would play it on that platform.

Error96_
1st Mar 2015, 17:37
MS want a big title to sell their Xboxes.
SE want to increase their Xbox profile.
MS pay SE for an exclusivity period.
SE get cash and help with ensuring the game is delivered in time.
MS get a big name for the Christmas market
SE get to sell the game on other platforms after The Deal(tm) ends
While The Deal(tm) is on OF COURSE CD are going to mention MS. OF COURSE they aren't going to mention other platforms.
Of course they aren't going to talk about the timing,
THEY CAN'T UNDERMINE THE DEAL(tm).


You will feel how you feel but turning it into The X-Files or The Wolf Of Wall Street is nonsense. I just wish people would get some perspective on it.

Anyone who works for a large organisation and has visibility in the right places know that its hard enough running that organisation keeping things going, let alone concocting and implementing great schemes and conspiracies like a Bond villain!

Here is how the story/timeline works

TR is launched in 96 and built up as a large brand using PS and PC
TR struggles with AOD but strong PS/PC brand keeps series going but under Crystal instead of Core
TR reboots in 2013 wth PS outselling Xbox
MS fall behind in the console sale and are desperate to catch up
MS see TR as a series to compete with uncharted's success
MS put forward timed exclusivity deal
CD/Darrell/ SE show complete disregard to the majority of TR's fans by disgracefully accepting it
Darrell declares MS to be CD's friends in a statement while acting like those who supported the series over the last 17 years don't matter
Darrell promise that CD to address fans concerns but does not


It wasn't planned as a scheme except the MS's want to rival Uncharted bit but treating more that half your fans like dirt would be bad business practise by any company. This fallout with Ryse that has been discussed show another danger that MS may try to claim TR's IP in future.


The whole point of a deal like this is to sell consoles. The idea is that some die-hard Tomb Raider fan will be willing to pony up for an Xbox One if that's the only way they can play the game. But if you announce that the exclusive is of a limited duration, then consumers know they can save themselves a few hundred bucks by just waiting it out.

When it as announced it triggered a huge backlash against MS and was generating very bad press for MS rather than good. By being the ones themselves to announce it was timed they made themselves look better and the responsibility for release or lack of it on other platforms falls on Crystal. MS come out of it okay but if they stuck to the permanent idea or let CD announce the redeeming statement they would have been at the brunt of six months of hate by now.

dayoum
1st Mar 2015, 18:48
MS put forward timed exclusivity deal
CD/Darrell/ SE show complete disregard to the majority of TR's fans by disgracefully accepting it
According to Spencer, CD had came to them: So when they came to us with the opportunity to do something, absolutely it was something we looked at hard and it worked out, and I'm glad it did.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-08-18-xbox-boss-phil-spencer-makes-case-for-tomb-raider-exclusivity-deal
But either way, SE/CD did show they don't care about the majority of the fanbase.

Murphdawg1
1st Mar 2015, 19:34
According to Spencer, CD had came to them: So when they came to us with the opportunity to do something, absolutely it was something we looked at hard and it worked out, and I'm glad it did.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-08-18-xbox-boss-phil-spencer-makes-case-for-tomb-raider-exclusivity-deal
But either way, SE/CD did show they don't care about the majority of the fanbase.

Microsoft has had their hands on Tomb Raider since 2008 and Underworld. I find it hard to believe that between then and now they have not been able to come up with their own adventure IP to rival Uncharted and let Tomb Raider be enjoyed across all platforms without any kind of deals that give the shaft to players on the opposite platforms. If timed exclusivity was the next step in the progression of the "partnership" between Crystal and Microsoft then what's the step after that? Full on exclusive? Tomb Raider being bought by Microsoft?

dayoum
1st Mar 2015, 19:49
Microsoft has had their hands on Tomb Raider since 2008 and Underworld. I find it hard to believe that between then and now they have not been able to come up with their own adventure IP to rival Uncharted and let Tomb Raider be enjoyed across all platforms without any kind of deals that give the shaft to players on the opposite platforms. If timed exclusivity was the next step in the progression of the "partnership" between Crystal and Microsoft then what's the step after that? Full on exclusive? Tomb Raider being bought by Microsoft?
That's why this whole deal is dangerous. If timed exclusive happened once, it'll happen again if SE/CD really see their partnership with MS as a future for them. It IS extremely possible for TR to end up as xb full exclusive with possible PC releases 1-2 years later (not every xb exclusive comes out on PC). What's even worse, Spencer did hint that in the above interview:
Phil Spencer: Totally. I'm a big fan of Uncharted and I wish we had an action adventure game of that ilk. We've started some, and we've looked at them. But we don't have one today of that quality. This is an opportunity. That's fundamental to us having a successful platform. People push me as the content guy, shouldn't it all be about the content you're building? I want to own all of the hits on our platform. Well, not all of them - that's too much. But I want to have a stable of hits on our platform that we own. Absolutely. When a unique opportunity comes up, I've got to go look at that. And this was a unique opportunity. The games business today is an expensive business to be in. If you're going to build shows like this, and IP and marketing budgets, in certain instances a partnership is a good way for a publisher to find a way to get to the level they think they need to break out. Just look at this year and the October lineup. It's crazy. If you're one of the people who wants to make noise around the game you have, there are opportunities out there to partner with platform holders, with sponsorships and other things to make it big. This was one of those opportunities for Crystal and Square, and I think it can help take Tomb Raider and make it even bigger. We want it to be big, given what we have coming to the Xbox in the way it is.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 20:19
Here is how the story/timeline works

TR is launched in 96 and built up as a large brand using PS and PC
TR struggles with AOD but strong PS/PC brand keeps series going but under Crystal instead of Core
TR reboots in 2013 wth PS outselling Xbox
MS fall behind in the console sale and are desperate to catch up
MS see TR as a series to compete with uncharted's success

I'm with your slightly non-impartial summary so far....



MS put forward timed exclusivity deal
Is this correct? You have seen the contract then?



CD/Darrell/ SE show complete disregard to the majority of TR's fans by disgracefully accepting it
How do you know they consciously took complete disregard to fans. They may well have agonised over the decision but decided in the long term it would be a good move for the franchise as a whole for all platforms. You are speculating on peoples motivations based on how you feel. If the deal results in increased Xbox user base and equal PS and PC user base then that's more money for SE to develop more great games and more TR games for all platforms. Isn't that a great prospect?



Darrell declares MS to be CD's friends in a statement while acting like those who supported the series over the last 17 years don't matter
Of course he does. You deciding who he feels matters or not is your perception and not reality. He said what he could say not what he might want to say or what he might feel.



Darrell promise that CD to address fans concerns but does not
The concerns fans have will NOT be addressed. They are NOT going to confirm or deny PS/PC release until the time is right for them. Get over it. Why is that so hard for people to accept instead of slagging them off every time they don't say something people want to hear? I know its hard for people to hear but that's the way it is.



It wasn't planned as a scheme except the MS's want to rival Uncharted bit but treating more that half your fans like dirt would be bad business practise by any company. This fallout with Ryse that has been discussed show another danger that MS may try to claim TR's IP in future.
Being treated like dirt? Having to wait a few months for a game? In my opinion that's over dramatic.
If the situation was reversed and the Xbox gamers had to wait a few months, no matter how much I love TR I wouldn't feel like I had been treated like dirt. (it will be a few months in my reasoned opinion)

IF MS decide to try to claim the whole IP in future that has no bearing on this deal.



When it as announced it triggered a huge backlash against MS and was generating very bad press for MS rather than good. By being the ones themselves to announce it was timed they made themselves look better and the responsibility for release or lack of it on other platforms falls on Crystal. MS come out of it okay but if they stuck to the permanent idea or let CD announce the redeeming statement they would have been at the brunt of six months of hate by now.
No more of a backlash than games like Evolve got, IMO. Backlash from parts of the gaming community and hate from SOME fans are NOT their target market. Once The Deal(tm) is done PC/PS4 fans will either buy it or not. They knew that going into the deal. That will be the proof of the pudding. Do fans NOT buy it, cut off their nose to spite their face and potentially put the whole franchise in danger or do they suck it up and buy it anyway?

Maybe the future will allow the truth to be told and set the record straight for people who really want to know, but for now I sit in the logical and reasoned perspective side of things while others can sit in the emotional and personally aggrieved side.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 20:22
That's why this whole deal is dangerous. If timed exclusive happened once, it'll happen again if SE/CD really see their partnership with MS as a future for them. It IS extremely possible for TR to end up as xb full exclusive with possible PC releases 1-2 years later (not every xb exclusive comes out on PC). What's even worse, Spencer did hint that in the above interview:
Phil Spencer: Totally. I'm a big fan of Uncharted and I wish we had an action adventure game of that ilk. We've started some, and we've looked at them. But we don't have one today of that quality. This is an opportunity. That's fundamental to us having a successful platform. People push me as the content guy, shouldn't it all be about the content you're building? I want to own all of the hits on our platform. Well, not all of them - that's too much. But I want to have a stable of hits on our platform that we own. Absolutely. When a unique opportunity comes up, I've got to go look at that. And this was a unique opportunity.The games business today is an expensive business to be in. If you're going to build shows like this, and IP and marketing budgets, in certain instances a partnership is a good way for a publisher to find a way to get to the level they think they need to break out. Just look at this year and the October lineup. It's crazy. If you're one of the people who wants to make noise around the game you have, there are opportunities out there to partner with platform holders, with sponsorships and other things to make it big. This was one of those opportunities for Crystal and Square, and I think it can help take Tomb Raider and make it even bigger. We want it to be big, given what we have coming to the Xbox in the way it is..

This sentence stands out for me...

d1n0_xD
1st Mar 2015, 20:58
Tecstar saying it like it is. :D

Murphdawg1
1st Mar 2015, 21:11
The concerns fans have will NOT be addressed. They are NOT going to confirm or deny PS/PC release until the time is right for them. Get over it. Why is that so hard for people to accept instead of slagging them off every time they don't say something people want to hear? I know its hard for people to hear but that's the way it is.



Being treated like dirt? Having to wait a few months for a game? In my opinion that's over dramatic.
If the situation was reversed and the Xbox gamers had to wait a few months, no matter how much I love TR I wouldn't feel like I had been treated like dirt. (it will be a few months in my reasoned opinion)

Maybe the future will allow the truth to be told and set the record straight for people who really want to know, but for now I sit in the logical and reasoned perspective side of things while others can sit in the emotional and personally aggrieved side.


Maybe because we want answers and are going to keep hounding them until we get it? Perhaps because Xbox has gotten favorable treatment since 2008? Put yourself in the shoes of someone that's played on PS or PC since that time, no access to the DLC for Underworld, timed exclusive DLC for TR2013, No TR bundle, No custom skinned controller and now being told we have to wait for X amount of time before we can even play a sequel that we were looking forward to to a game that we helped support and in larger numbers than Xbox.

s-jay2676
1st Mar 2015, 21:33
No more of a backlash than games like Evolve got, IMO. Backlash from parts of the gaming community and hate from SOME fans are NOT their target market. Once The Deal(tm) is done PC/PS4 fans will either buy it or not. They knew that going into the deal. That will be the proof of the pudding. Do fans NOT buy it, cut off their nose to spite their face and potentially put the whole franchise in danger or do they suck it up and buy it anyway?

As a customer I shouldn't have to suck it up and buy it anyway. I want them to "fight" for my money. I want them to show me that they want me as their customer. At the moment, however, we are not valued customers. They are basically saying "we're gonna release ROTTR on PC/PS4 sometimes in the future and we're expecting them to buy this game. We are not afraid that this game may fail. The PC/PS4 players are just sheep. We're own them, they won't abandon us. They can't abandon us, because they addicted to TR. We're gonna show them a brand new game and they will buy it. Sure, they'll yell at first, they'll be pissed at us, but in the end they'll buy it." The arrogance that CD and SE are displaying right now is a good example of what's wrong with today's gaming industry.

Barrier_Maiden
1st Mar 2015, 21:42
Tecstar saying it like it is. :D

More like Tecstar says it like Tecstar thinks it is, or rather will be.

I haven't seen any evidence that RotTR won't end up like Dead Rising 3, an XBox One exclusive that gets a PC port but not a PS4 port. I can't get excited about a game if I don't know I'll ever get to play it. I'm glad all the Game Informer stuff was just videos I couldn't be bothered to turn off music to watch. If they were actual articles I probably would've read them and got bummed out about all the cool stuff I might never get to experience.

I'm not getting my hopes up over speculation and assertions. I'll wait for CD to actually say something about it, and until then I'll just assume the game will pass me by.

d1n0_xD
1st Mar 2015, 22:27
Put yourself in the shoes of someone that's played on PS or PC since that time, no access to the DLC for Underworld, timed exclusive DLC for TR2013, No TR bundle, No custom skinned controller and now being told we have to wait for X amount of time before we can even play a sequel that we were looking forward to to a game that we helped support and in larger numbers than Xbox.

As someone in those shoes, I'm perfectly calm, and I'm ready to rage when I find out I won't be able to play the game. Until then, I'm calm and excited for what the game will be :D Not to say you should do that, but not everything is black and white.


I haven't seen any evidence that RotTR won't end up like Dead Rising 3, an XBox One exclusive that gets a PC port but not a PS4 port.

Nor is there evidence that it will end up like that, so, yeah, all in all, we'll have to wait and see.

Tecstar70
1st Mar 2015, 23:05
Maybe because we want answers and are going to keep hounding them until we get it? Perhaps because Xbox has gotten favorable treatment since 2008? Put yourself in the shoes of someone that's played on PS or PC since that time, no access to the DLC for Underworld, timed exclusive DLC for TR2013, No TR bundle, No custom skinned controller and now being told we have to wait for X amount of time before we can even play a sequel that we were looking forward to to a game that we helped support and in larger numbers than Xbox.
The problem is I am 99.99% sure you won't get them however much you ask. If part of your business model hangs on a particular aspect you do not break it. If this succeeds it may well pave the way for TR to become one of the biggest game franchises. It's a ***** I know to have to take the crap that a goes along with it.



As a customer I shouldn't have to suck it up and buy it anyway. I want them to "fight" for my money. I want them to show me that they want me as their customer. At the moment, however, we are not valued customers. They are basically saying "we're gonna release ROTTR on PC/PS4 sometimes in the future and we're expecting them to buy this game. We are not afraid that this game may fail. The PC/PS4 players are just sheep. We're own them, they won't abandon us. They can't abandon us, because they addicted to TR. We're gonna show them a brand new game and they will buy it. Sure, they'll yell at first, they'll be pissed at us, but in the end they'll buy it." The arrogance that CD and SE are displaying right now is a good example of what's wrong with today's gaming industry.
How many game franchises fight for your money? I agree it would be an admirable thing but I don't see much of it going on. People buy COD year after year like sheep - and that goes for ALL platforms. There is an element of "Sure, they'll yell at first" but I don't believe its arrogance. Look how many game studios have gone under in the last few years. Ok, not all as big as SE but still it's a fragile marketplace for anyone to try to be arrogant in.


More like Tecstar says it like Tecstar thinks it is, or rather will be.

I haven't seen any evidence that RotTR won't end up like Dead Rising 3, an XBox One exclusive that gets a PC port but not a PS4 port. I can't get excited about a game if I don't know I'll ever get to play it. I'm glad all the Game Informer stuff was just videos I couldn't be bothered to turn off music to watch. If they were actual articles I probably would've read them and got bummed out about all the cool stuff I might never get to experience.

I'm not getting my hopes up over speculation and assertions. I'll wait for CD to actually say something about it, and until then I'll just assume the game will pass me by.

My assumptions about the game release are based on what is MOST LIKELY based on the facts as we know them. I could be TOTALLY wrong but I don't think I am when taking everything into consideration.

dayoum
1st Mar 2015, 23:32
No more of a backlash than games like Evolve got, IMO. Backlash from parts of the gaming community and hate from SOME fans are NOT their target market. Once The Deal(tm) is done PC/PS4 fans will either buy it or not. They knew that going into the deal. That will be the proof of the pudding. Do fans NOT buy it, cut off their nose to spite their face and potentially put the whole franchise in danger or do they suck it up and buy it anyway?

Maybe the future will allow the truth to be told and set the record straight for people who really want to know, but for now I sit in the logical and reasoned perspective side of things while others can sit in the emotional and personally aggrieved side.
You know, there's this rule: respect your customers or you won't be successful. When it comes to TR, the custmers are mostly fans. When you disrespect the fans/customers, they will bite you back one way or another. This deal should've never happen to the game that has nearly 20 years history of being multiplatform and should've been released the same day for everyone. It is disrespectful for the majority of the fanbase and it does show they don't really care about us. Without us, TR would've died a couple of years ago. Reboot would never happen. And that's how we're paid for our loyal support. I really wish I could play this game on Christmas instead of having ads shoved into my face whenever I turn around while shopping, which will only add to my frustration. Yes, I'm in a group that will "suck it up and buy the game anyway". Just not for a full price, which I see fair after such treatment but this won't turn good for SE/CD at the end bc they'll get less money. But why should I care if they don't?

Error96_
2nd Mar 2015, 03:08
How do you know they consciously took complete disregard to fans. They may well have agonised over the decision but decided in the long term it would be a good move for the franchise as a whole for all platforms. You are speculating on peoples motivations based on how you feel. If the deal results in increased Xbox user base and equal PS and PC user base then that's more money for SE to develop more great games and more TR games for all platforms. Isn't that a great prospect?

To me it's far more clear cut. When the deal was on the table there are two options sign the deal and screw over most of your fans or show respect for your fans and don't sign it. It doesn't really matter how much they thought about it or about the positives about extra money simply put that name on that contract is complete disregard to TR's PC/PS fans - no more to it.


Of course he does. You deciding who he feels matters or not is your perception and not reality. He said what he could say not what he might want to say or what he might feel.

The concerns fans have will NOT be addressed. They are NOT going to confirm or deny PS/PC release until the time is right for them. Get over it. Why is that so hard for people to accept instead of slagging them off every time they don't say something people want to hear? I know its hard for people to hear but that's the way it is.


We know that there are probably many more questions and concerns. Please do send them to us, and we’ll answer to the best of our ability.

I know they can't say about the release and I accept that but Darrel himself said CD would try to answer concerns about the deal and clearly they havn't so that quote was why I feel it belongs in the chronology.


Being treated like dirt? Having to wait a few months for a game? In my opinion that's over dramatic.
If the situation was reversed and the Xbox gamers had to wait a few months, no matter how much I love TR I wouldn't feel like I had been treated like dirt. (it will be a few months in my reasoned opinion)

IF MS decide to try to claim the whole IP in future that has no bearing on this deal.

Microsoft is the greatest, Xbox is the best... Loads of us have been supporting this series for many years and the PS/PC platforms back to the 90's but all that is forgotten because now MS is best. The very least we deserve is respect and I don't believe we are getting that. Missing TR at Christmas and watching loads of casual gamers play the game before most of the hardcore fans is not nice. Having a TR developer who don't care about our larger side of the fanbase is much worse and Darrell could come on here and say he does want us as part of TR's future but he won't. We fought for TR in the darker days in large numbers but now they show no fight for us.

This is not 3 months on one game. It is potentially three months on EVERY TR game from now or IF permanent exclusivity will happen this deal was a crucial and huge step in the process. MS may put in more money for a better TR as you say but they won't do it without consequences and so unless we see a U turn it will be a worse TR for us.


Maybe the future will allow the truth to be told and set the record straight for people who really want to know, but for now I sit in the logical and reasoned perspective side of things while others can sit in the emotional and personally aggrieved side.

Well I am a scientist so I think in logic but I am very much invested and care what happens to TR. I support the series and thought it was amazing since the start and anything that is going to stop me getting to be a part in the future of TR or enjoying the upcoming TR games then sure I will fight it to the last.

Tecstar70
2nd Mar 2015, 11:50
You know, there's this rule: respect your customers or you won't be successful.
I disagree. Theres plenty of organisations that don't APPEAR to respect their customers and are successful. Also what is respect exactly? Giving in to every customer whim no matter what the consequences? Spending money when you haven't got it because the customer wants something?


When it comes to TR, the custmers are mostly fans.
How do you know this?


When you disrespect the fans/customers, they will bite you back one way or another. This deal should've never happen to the game that has nearly 20 years history of being multiplatform and should've been released the same day for everyone.
Even if it meant it would be less of a game and might mean scaling it back or delaying the next one? I am speculating, but have you considered this possibility? A sub-par TR game just so everyone can have it on Day One. Sounds like AoD all over again There is a possibility we should ALL be grateful this isn't happening.



It is disrespectful for the majority of the fanbase and it does show they don't really care about us. Without us, TR would've died a couple of years ago. Reboot would never happen.
How do you know the reboot would never have happened without an existing fan base?


And that's how we're paid for our loyal support. I really wish I could play this game on Christmas instead of having ads shoved into my face whenever I turn around while shopping, which will only add to my frustration. Yes, I'm in a group that will "suck it up and buy the game anyway". Just not for a full price, which I see fair after such treatment but this won't turn good for SE/CD at the end bc they'll get less money. But why should I care if they don't?
Because less money means less to spend on building and developing the franchise further and if you care about TR as much as you say thats got to be good, right?

The brunt of your argument is that because CD/SE/MS haven't said when it's coming to PC/PS4 that is disrespectful, even though they can't say something because of business reasons, even though you the customer want them to. Also you don't like the fact that they have done a deal that they believe is right for the long term benefit of the franchise. If you love the game so much you have to take it on the chin knowing that you are securing a better future for TR.

All this BS about MS buying the IP and it will never come back to PC/PS4 is pure speculation.

You also say they don't care about the fans. That is YOUR perception because you don't like what they are doing. The two things aren't the same. I believe they do care about the fans because they have always had a presence here and do read the boards. When there were issues with TR2013 they were here almost daily at one point posting updates on fixes. You might not see it, but they are here and care. I also believe that nearly every person who creates something artistic for an audience cares about making something as best as they can and that their audience will love. They are not churning out paper napkins, they are creating a labour of love and to say they don't care is doing them a great disservice.



To me it's far more clear cut. When the deal was on the table there are two options sign the deal and screw over most of your fans or show respect for your fans and don't sign it. It doesn't really matter how much they thought about it or about the positives about extra money simply put that name on that contract is complete disregard to TR's PC/PS fans - no more to it.
in your opinion.



I know they can't say about the release and I accept that but Darrel himself said CD would try to answer concerns about the deal and clearly they havn't so that quote was why I feel it belongs in the chronology.
Fair enough. I have asked numerous times what could be said within the terms of the deal to allay fans fears but no-one has yet posted a response. That's because there is nothing they can say other than "its coming out on PC and PS4". But they can't say that.



Microsoft is the greatest, Xbox is the best...
I don't think they have actualy said that. They have said they are a great partner and are bringing something to the table. Have they actually said this?


Loads of us have been supporting this series for many years and the PS/PC platforms back to the 90's but all that is forgotten because now MS is best.
How do you know it is forgotten? Just because it hasn't been mentioned you really think they aren't thinking about those 4 million PC and PS4 gamers who bought TR2013? Again, it's your perception, not fact.


The very least we deserve is respect and I don't believe we are getting that.
What, in your opinion, should they do to show you respect? I could repeat what I said to Dayoum above.



Missing TR at Christmas and watching loads of casual gamers play the game before most of the hardcore fans is not nice.
Totally agree, but there are a great many Xbox gamers who are hardcore TR fans too. Of course there is the possibility that RotTR will attract people to Xbox but not necessarily to buy the game (unless it is bundled of course, which is a real possibility).


Having a TR developer who don't care about our larger side of the fanbase is much worse and Darrell could come on here and say he does want us as part of TR's future but he won't. We fought for TR in the darker days in large numbers but now they show no fight for us.
What evidence is there that they don't care other than you not liking The Deal(tm)?


This is not 3 months on one game. It is potentially three months on EVERY TR game from now or IF permanent exclusivity will happen this deal was a crucial and huge step in the process. MS may put in more money for a better TR as you say but they won't do it without consequences and so unless we see a U turn it will be a worse TR for us.
So you are angry about what MIGHT happen in the future? You are unhappy about something that has never been hinted at and actually may NEVER happen. I don't see the logic there. I woudl be utterly amazed if the do a U Turn on a marketing deal.



Well I am a scientist so I think in logic but I am very much invested and care what happens to TR. I support the series and thought it was amazing since the start and anything that is going to stop me getting to be a part in the future of TR or enjoying the upcoming TR games then sure I will fight it to the last.
Good for you. Make your feelings known absolutely. I suspect CD and SE were well aware of the impact of The Deal(tm) beforehand and they are well aware of it now, but sometimes we all have to do things that hurt for the long term good. I hope I will be proved right.

d1n0_xD
2nd Mar 2015, 12:20
^ I hope you will be proved right too, I can wait a couple of months if it means a great game, because RotTR seems to be really big and better than TR2013, which is amazing... We all want sequels to be way better than previous games, so here's to that and everybody playing the games eventually. :raises cup: :)

Blacktron
2nd Mar 2015, 12:24
I disagree. Theres plenty of organisations that don't APPEAR to respect their customers and are successful. Also what is respect exactly? Giving in to every customer whim no matter what the consequences? Spending money when you haven't got it because the customer wants something?

Respecting the costumer, I'd say, is another word for investing into your reputation. If time and again you can make your costumers happy with good products they will start to trust you and trust that your next product will be good as well. They will become excited for your next product. In gamy words: your reputation bar goes up. Franchises like GTA and Uncharted are doing this very well: because they have never let their customers down: they are delivering quality products every time and are not screwing around with their fans. The fans may even start to yell: 'shut up and take my money!' That's a little jokey of course, but it shows how people are willing to financially support a product that gives to them the things they like.

On the opposite, if you start delivering unfinished products like Angel of Darkness and Underworld because you care more about reaching a yearly quota than the state of your product, and start to discriminate console users because you're taking bribes from the console manufacturer, your reputation goes down. Gamers will become suspicious and bitter towards you, because it is obvious to them that you do not have their best interests in mind, and they will have to look after themselves not to get screwed over with faulty products. And that unfortunately is were Tomb Raider finds itself now. I am not screaming: 'shut up and take my money', quite the contrary: I am planning to buy my TR10 copy second hand. Because Square Enix chose Microsoft's money over mine, so I see no reason why I should financially support them anymore. I would WANT to be excited about TR10, but they are doing their uttermost best to SUPPRESS that enthousiasm!

Timberley
2nd Mar 2015, 12:48
Given the exclusivity, whether timed or not, my interest in Rise of The Tomb Raider has pretty much vanished. I was hyped for the reboot back in 2013 because I could buy it for my laptop (no room for a console & TV in my flat, so not getting it for PS4 or XB1), and loved that they were finally making a new one, with a more realistically proportioned Lara.

Now, with so much up in the air and no definitive answer either way, I'm not actually actively hunting for interviews, screenies, etc like I was last time. If it does get announced for PC then I might muster some enthusiasm, but I doubt it as I'm getting jaded with this 'exclusivity' nonsense in general. Pretty sad that the system that kicked off the franchise in the first place gets binned in favour of a console de jour.

Tim

Edit: Now, playing Alien: Isolation for PC; that's worth my time! :D

Scion_Light
2nd Mar 2015, 13:28
To me it's far more clear cut. When the deal was on the table there are two options sign the deal and screw over most of your fans or show respect for your fans and don't sign it. It doesn't really matter how much they thought about it or about the positives about extra money simply put that name on that contract is complete disregard to TR's PC/PS fans - no more to it .

Good to hear someone say it


Theres plenty of organisations that don't APPEAR to respect their customers and are successful.

Crystal before this appeared better than that. Are we as fans supposed to go hooray a company that doesn't respect us.


How do you know the reboot would never have happened without an existing fan base?

If AOD or TRU went down badly and there was not the demand for another game then neither of the two reboots would have happened and the series would have gone. Would CD have chosen to take on series that didn't have much support?


If you love the game so much you have to take it on the chin knowing that you are securing a better future for TR.

The point everyone is trying to make is a future that most of us don't get to be a part of or constantly get treat worse than our equivalent fans is not a better future for TR. Just because you get the best of it being an Xbox player you want to begrudge us the same service you are getting. Doing everything we can to stop a repeat of this is getting a better future for TR.


You also say they don't care about the fans. That is YOUR perception because you don't like what they are doing. The two things aren't the same. I believe they do care about the fans because they have always had a presence here and do read the boards. When there were issues with TR2013 they were here almost daily at one point posting updates on fixes. You might not see it, but they are here and care. I also believe that nearly every person who creates something artistic for an audience cares about making something as best as they can and that their audience will love. They are not churning out paper napkins, they are creating a labour of love and to say they don't care is doing them a great disservice.

Care about the fans - don't sign the deal and that goes for the next game too. I think there is a big distinction between the creative team who do care and their managers like Darrell at the top who don't. I don't think everyone at Crystal is bad by any stretch.



I suspect CD and SE were well aware of the impact of The Deal(tm) beforehand and they are well aware of it now, but sometimes we all have to do things that hurt for the long term good. I hope I will be proved right.

If CD's reputation and Darrell's ego have to get damaged to secure a better series for PS/PC gamers then sure in that frame I agree. More deals = no respect for the fans = worse. No more deals = respect for the fans = better. Sorry Tecstar while I respect you and how debate there really is nothing you can say to change my mind on that.


I would WANT to be excited about TR10 but they are doing their uttermost best to SUPPRESS that enthusiasm!

Exactly

Larafan1996
2nd Mar 2015, 15:24
Even if it meant it would be less of a game and might mean scaling it back or delaying the next one? I am speculating, but have you considered this possibility? A sub-par TR game just so everyone can have it on Day One. Sounds like AoD all over again There is a possibility we should ALL be grateful this isn't happening.


Oh ofcourse however could they make a game with no "help" from their good friends at Microsoft, surely the next TR would have been a half finished disaster without them. We should all be so very grateful they saved the franchise that has only been around for 18 years from such a horrible fate...

AOD was not underfunded, it was an unfinished game because they ran out of time, because they had a deadline set by external people from Sony (oh this sounds familiar) and Paramount pictures for the Cradle of Life. Core said Edios forced them to get it out before it was ready. It is then much more likely that a game forced to be released for black friday Holiday 2015 sales due to a deal with an external party in Microsoft (just like Paramount in 2003) will parallel AOD than any other would.

Tecstar70
2nd Mar 2015, 15:30
Oh ofcourse however could they make a game with no "help" from their good friends at Microsoft, surely the next TR would have been a half finished disaster without them. We should all be so very grateful they saved the franchise that has only been around for 18 years from such a horrible fate...

AOD was not underfunded, it was an unfinished game because they ran out of time, because they had a deadline set by external people from Sony (oh this sounds familiar) and Paramount pictures for the Cradle of Life. Core said Edios forced them to get it out before it was ready. It is then much more likely that a game forced to be released for black friday Holiday 2015 sales due to a deal with an external party in Microsoft (just like Paramount in 2003) will parallel AOD than any other would.

I'm not saying they couldn't. I am making the point that we don't know the intracacies of The Deal(tm) and that this could be a possibility.

Driber
2nd Mar 2015, 16:00
I'm not going to count negative comments under all of the Apple-related articles, sorry.

I wasn't suggesting you do. It wouldn't really say anything anyway, because as I said, a random article on the internet with a bunch of comments doesn't speak for the whole of a country.


But the same thing we should be able to say about ROTTR fans, right? If we don't have the numbers, how do we know that majority of the fandom hates the deal? Just because people talk about it in the comments under random articles and on some gaming forums doesn't mean that most of them hate the situation, right?

That is correct. That's why I haven't made any declarations like the ones you have made about the "majority".


Well, we all know most of us hate this situation and nobody needs any numbers to prove it.

Sure you do. If you're going to make claims about the "majority" you'll need numbers to prove it.

I'll happily entertain the thought that most TR fans who don't own an xbox nor plan to buy one to play TR10 hate the deal, though. But that's not quite the same.


True and this is usually one of the reasons why console owners dislike PC gamers ;) And the other way around, console gamers can be douches as well.

Yup, douchebags can be found in just about any group of people.

Personally, don't dislike PC gamers, and I own consoles as well as PCs. I don't like generalizations, so I usually address individuals who act like douchebags, rather than labeling a whole group as something negative, as so many fanboys tend to do :p



This is going to be IMO:
Compared to Android? Nope. Compared to Windows? I'm not sure, but I think not. Computers with Windows have better specifications so Mac users can't enjoy games, for example. They still can play, it's just not as great as on Windows. Graphics are worse and the game seems to work slower. iPods are fine, iPads would've been great if appstore didn't mess up with "region locked" apps.

Apple is one of the most innovative companies out there. The Macintosh revolutionized the PC industry with their graphical interface (which was shortly after adopted by MS as well), iPod and iTunes revolutionized the music industry, the iPhone revolutionized the cellphone industry (which Android then later ate the fruits from), the iPad revolutionized the tablet industry, and so on.

We can argue about some short comings in user friendliness, but to say that Apple isn't innovative, even when compared to Android and Windows is bloody absurd. I won't say neither Android or Windows wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Apple, but no one can deny that Apple was a pioneer in many industries and paved the way for many other companies to be successful, Android and MS included.


I've never said people hate Opera. I said they got mad after the engine had changed and they switched to Firefox. It's not the hate.

I know, my point was that just like with Opera you can't say it's because of hate, neither with IE you can say it's because of hate.


Or crap computers [at school] :P No, but seriously, I had to work with Word, Excell and PowerPoint and I never liked it. I really do find OO more friendly for me :)

Maybe the fact that you had to work with MS Office in school, it gave you negative connections because of that. I'm assuming you started using OO out of your own, rather than being part of a school curriculum?


PRISM was one of the reasons

An unsubstantial reason.


, I added a few more links about Linux growing up as a system.

Well I already know Lunix is trying to 'grow up' as a system. It's just still light years away compared to Windows.


I also said it's paranoia (abut PRISM) so don't be surprised what kind of forums and sites I've found around the internet ;)

I'm not really surprised people switch to other OS's because of paranoia. What I'm surprised about is you trying to use that fact to make bold claims about the TR10 xbox deal.


I'm going to quote a few things from those links anyway:

The City of Munich does not want a vulnerable populace, and has adopted a fairly aggressive stance on getting XP fans switched over to Ubuntu. [...] It's worth noting that the City of Munich voted to switch all government systems to Linux more than a decade ago, and has done its best to excise Microsoft from city computers in the last 10 years.

---

Do you trust Microsoft’s latest operating system, Windows 8? If you are the Federal Republic of Germany, the answer to that question is "no". Last week internal documents from IT professionals within the government showed a strong rejection of the new operating system calling it "unacceptable for the federal administration and the operators of critical infrastructure".
The German government feels technology within the latest operating system create a dangerous backdoor that could allow access to confidential information. With the United States’ Nation Security Agency in the not so positive spotlight recently, concerns of keeping confidential data secure is at an all-time high.

---

Linux is far more than just a fringe OS. In fact, it's running in quite a few more places than you probably suspect. Below are fifty places Linux is running today in place of Windows or Mac.

---

Microsoft is intercepting your stuff and sending it to the NSA (and the CIA and the FBI). [...] Switch to GNU/Linux, and stop using Microsoft and Apple products. Proprietary software is bad for your freedom and privacy in many ways, from leaky security to deliberate backdoors for the NSA.

So in short, all just fears and paranoia, and no concrete reasons. Again, come back to me when they have something else other than paranoia and when they actually find some kind of backdoor in Windows.


Those who bought PS3 had to wait 5 years to play TLR on it. PS3 premiered the same year as TLR did and there was a group of people who didn't own PS2 or PC and didn't buy TLR right after premiere because they were hoping to play this game right after they bought the console or at least early on 2007, but... TLR got released as a part of The TR Trilogy collection 5 years later. In the comments under a few ROTTR-related articles, I've seen a few people still remember it (and still are not over it, lol). It wasn't THAT big like MS-SE-CD deal, (nothing can beat that), but it was there and I think every gaming magazine I've read at that time wrote about it. And frankly, I can't remember anything else with release-dates of TR games that would be an issue. Only TLR for PS3 and now "timed exclusive". This better not end up as "every 10-year tradition"

THAT was a big thing? I'm sorry, but that shouldn't have been a thing, at all. With the PS3 not even existing during the development of TRL, it is no surprise that it wasn't released on that console soon after TRL's release date. That's a totally unrealistic thing to except to happen. It's not the devs' fault that some fans didn't own a gaming PC nor PS2 at the time.

BTW, you kept writing "TLR" instead of "TRL", heh.


I doubt longime fans would forget about the anniversary.

I didn't say "forget", I said "care". If TR10 is a perm exclusive, and you can't play it because you don't own an xbox, I doubt you'd be much in a celebratory mood...


I'm almost sure MS will use the anniversary and lower the price, promoting the game again on sales so "fans could celebrate".

If anything big is going to happen with a 20th anniversary celebration, I'm sure it'll come from CD rather than MS.


I would be optimistic too if I didn't know they made something exactly opposite to a few games that were supposed to be "timed exclusive" but got released as "full exclusive." And Spencer still says he doesn't own the IPs of these games so... yeah, like I said earlier, I'd rather not have a very high hopes so they won't get crushed


That's your perogative, and I do understand where you're coming from.


All CD's press releases seem to be just used as a platform to suck up to MS rather than actually address or appease the fans. Evading every question and giving a truck load of compliments to the company who are stealing TR going to make those not playing the game feel any less annoyed about it. In all of them trying to say Microsoft is great I still really have no idea what MS are bringing that makes it so worthwhile. I think Darrell has so much attention towards trying to say something that will make MS happy that he forget he is addressing the wider TR fans. I do think they are already making PS/PC versions but to imply we are only focussed on making a game for someone else makes me feel unwelcome.

I get how you feel. I was just saying that it makes no sense to think that Darrell's answer was designed to insult the fans, i.e. deliberate crafted so piss people off. That it did, I acknowledge.


I feel CD are the only ones who can make the fans feel less sour and more positive but some either not putting in enough effort or have their hands tied by those same people.

I disagree. While we can't solve the situation as we'd ultimately like to see it solved, we as a community can in the meantime definitely try to make the best out of a bad situation by keeping our feet on the ground and staying as much positive as the situation allows.

That's not to say there isn't a place for pessimism or critical feedback, but moderation and balance is key I believe. Giving up, burning bridges, bitterness and hated is something I feel we as a community should try to avoid. Or at least suspend, until a time when all hope indeed is lost... IF such a time comes.

Nor am I saying that we should all stick our heads in the sand and pray that things will be solved on their own. If fans have genuine and serious concerns about the future, by all means voice them.


It isn't just on the deal as the issue of CD not caring about fans is proving like the equivalent of the poisoned status condition to them and this could be remedied so easily by just engaging more.

I don't agree. It depends on the situation and how you engage. Sometimes silence is better. I speak from experience.


Find a more positive thing to talk about so the CD can show their enthusiasm for TR and the fans without having to mention MS in the same sentence. Darrell could show himself to be not be so bad by doing one of the podcasts to say how he got into TR and what are his favourite aspects so he gets perceived as a TR fan rather than just about the business.

But Darrell's job is to talk business. What's this obsession with Darrell and wanting him to be "one of us"? That's not what he's there for. He's not a dev dev.

And what difference would it make anyway? Darrell talking about his TR experiences isn't going to change anything about the MS deal.

dayoum
2nd Mar 2015, 17:33
Maybe the fact that you had to work with MS Office in school, it gave you negative connections because of that. I'm assuming you started using OO out of your own, rather than being part of a school curriculum?
Yes, I've started using OO out of my own, but the same goes with MS Office. I've started using it before I've had a computing class at school.


THAT was a big thing? I'm sorry, but that shouldn't have been a thing, at all. With the PS3 not even existing during the development of TRL, it is no surprise that it wasn't released on that console soon after TRL's release date. That's a totally unrealistic thing to except to happen. It's not the devs' fault that some fans didn't own a gaming PC nor PS2 at the time.
Yeah, but people were disappointed anyway and a few of them still aren't over it ;) Still, 5 years is a long time, considering they did deliver this game for Nintendo about the same time PS3 premiered so they could've released it on PS3 as well or at least early on 2007. I completely understand these people feelings.


BTW, you kept writing "TLR" instead of "TRL", heh.
Oops, you're right :D No idea why I did that and never saw this mistake... :scratch: I think I was writing the post late at night.


I didn't say "forget", I said "care". If TR10 is a perm exclusive, and you can't play it because you don't own an xbox, I doubt you'd be much in a celebratory mood...
Which will only add to the frustration, which is my point. People won't be able to celebrate the anniversary with the game so the frustration level will get even higher.


If anything big is going to happen with a 20th anniversary celebration, I'm sure it'll come from CD rather than MS.
Yeah... I guess we shall see, but it better not be something like another Temple of Osiris or announcement of the release date for PC/PS4, because if they're going to wait until anniversary to announce release date for other platforms, people will probably eat them alive.


How do you know this?

How do you know the reboot would never have happened without an existing fan base?
I believe the others already explained this part perfectly.


Even if it meant it would be less of a game and might mean scaling it back or delaying the next one?
They're delaying the game for PS/PC right now so what's the difference?


Because less money means less to spend on building and developing the franchise further and if you care about TR as much as you say thats got to be good, right?
So basically you mean I should agree with what they did and buy the game for full price a year or so after the premiere, yes? No, thank you, but a year old game costs less than a half of the original price. If they make me wait for the game, I can make them wait for my money. I'll buy the game so I'm going to add +1 to the sales statistics, but I'm not going to invest too much money into it since they already chose MS's money over mine.


The brunt of your argument is that because CD/SE/MS haven't said when it's coming to PC/PS4 that is disrespectful
No, the fact they made this kind of deal, ditching out the majority of the fanbase, is disrespectful.


Also you don't like the fact that they have done a deal that they believe is right for the long term benefit of the franchise.
I believe they said ROTTR would exist without MS's money anyway, so what's the point? MS paid them to deliver "an amazing game for xbox" and I can even quote you Spencer's words here: Clearly, I'm not going to invest in something to make games great on other platforms. Windows stuff I will. But not on stuff on other consoles. That's 101. This wasn't an attack against anybody else. It was an opportunity that came up for us that fit really well. source (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-08-18-xbox-boss-phil-spencer-makes-case-for-tomb-raider-exclusivity-deal)


All this BS about MS buying the IP and it will never come back to PC/PS4 is pure speculation.
I already said MS isn't bying IPs, but they still are able to somehow change timed exclusives into full exclusives.


You also say they don't care about the fans. That is YOUR perception because you don't like what they are doing. The two things aren't the same. I believe they do care about the fans because they have always had a presence here and do read the boards.
Presence on the forum and treating everyone equally are two different things. They chose MS's money over mine and my loyal support by signing the deal that hurts my feelings as a longtime, loyal fan of the game = they don't care about me.


also believe that nearly every person who creates something artistic for an audience cares about making something as best as they can
Sure, but all they care about is "to deliver an amazing game for xbox" - SE/CD's words.


I don't think they have actualy said that. They have said they are a great partner and are bringing something to the table. Have they actually said this?
Calling MS their best friends is, reading between the lines, pretty much calling them the greatest.


What, in your opinion, should they do to show you respect?
Not sign the deal.


Totally agree, but there are a great many Xbox gamers who are hardcore TR fans too.
We shall see how many of those gamers will buy ROTTR, ok? (there're hardcore TR fans who said they won't buy it until it comes out of every platform, just for your information)
If you want numbers for TR'13, just go here: http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly/2013/Global/ and here: http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly/2014/Global/ and see how many copies were sold on PS and how many on xbox.

Driber
3rd Mar 2015, 10:27
As a customer I shouldn't have to suck it up and buy it anyway. I want them to "fight" for my money. I want them to show me that they want me as their customer. At the moment, however, we are not valued customers. They are basically saying "we're gonna release ROTTR on PC/PS4 sometimes in the future and we're expecting them to buy this game. We are not afraid that this game may fail. The PC/PS4 players are just sheep. We're own them, they won't abandon us. They can't abandon us, because they addicted to TR. We're gonna show them a brand new game and they will buy it. Sure, they'll yell at first, they'll be pissed at us, but in the end they'll buy it." The arrogance that CD and SE are displaying right now is a good example of what's wrong with today's gaming industry.

You seem to be doing a lot of projecting there. This "arrogance" you speak of is one you have created entirely in your own mind.


Tecstar saying it like it is. :D


More like Tecstar says it like Tecstar thinks it is, or rather will be.

More like Tecstar saying it like it is when it comes to people arguing from emotion and assumptions rather than from facts. Point in case the quote from s-jay2676 above.


I also find these very true:

Yes, the exclusive is of limited duration. But even so, there's a cost to going exclusive. Sales will be lower overall. We can argue over the importance of marketing, but it's clear that the publishers believe that it's crucial to making a game sell. They sometimes spend as much on marketing as they do on making the game itself, which means marketing is so important that they would rather have an ad campaign than another whole video game to sell. So (using their own logic, since we don't have reliable sales numbers) releasing on the other platforms months or years later means that they will either have to do a second ad campaign (which is crazy expensive) or release with limited marketing, thus hurting their sales on the largest platform. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/12124-Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider-Exclusive-On-Xbox-One-Has-Major-Issues

The situation is win-win for MS (they get the game and they might get a bit more xb sales), but not for SE/CD (they will have to pay for their own ads, but they already lost some potential customers because of the deal and many people will wait to buy the game for a lower price or even on sales when it'll cost 5$ because "if you don't respect your customers, you won't be successful".

No, that is not true.

The thing that the Escapist fails to take into account (or conveniently left out - I wouldn't put it past them, with the Escapist's shoddy reputation of game "journalism" :whistle:) is that you don't necessarily need a whole nother ad campaign for the release of a PS4/PC version down the line. Let's think for a minute what a typical TR ad campaign involves, shall we...

I'd argue that the biggest task of an ad campaign for a game is to raise awareness and hype. If MS takes care of that part this year, then SE probably doesn't need another ad campaign the size of the one that MS will be doing, because the hype is already there, and the awareness is already there. All you need then is to simply get the word out that the game will come to PS4/PC. You don't need to spend money on showcasing the game (as much) with a second campaign.


When it comes to TR, the custmers are mostly fans.

I don't think so. Most customers are casual gamers, not long time TR fans.


When you disrespect the fans/customers, they will bite you back one way or another.

If TR ever goes full on exclusive, I'm sure that is exactly what will happen. But right now we're dealing with a timed exclusive.


Without us, TR would've died a couple of years ago. Reboot would never happen. And that's how we're paid for our loyal support.

Show me proof of your claim that TR9 happened and was successful because of the money that loyal fans of the franchise brought in and not because of the casual gamer market. I need reliable statistics, or else I'll have to take your claim are pure, unsubstantial, speculation.

Tecstar70
3rd Mar 2015, 11:52
The thing that the Escapist fails to take into account (or conveniently left out - I wouldn't put it past them, with the Escapist's shoddy reputation of game "journalism" :whistle:) is that you don't necessarily need a whole nother ad campaign for the release of a PS4/PC version down the line. Let's think for a minute what a typical TR ad campaign involves, shall we...

I'd argue that that the biggest task of an ad campaign for a game is to raise awareness and hype. If MS takes care of that part this year, then SE probably doesn't need another ad campaign the size of the one that MS will be doing, because the hype is already there, and the awareness is already there. All you need then is to simply get the word out that the game will come to PS4/PC. You don't need to spend money on showcasing the game (as much) with a second campaign.


Exactly my point about the logic in not waiting too long for a PS4/PC release. SE will want to maxmise sales on ALL platforms so why would they not ride the wave rather than wait until the tide has gone out? With game like The Elder Scrolls 6, Mass Effect 4 and Fallout 4 being mooted for 2016 release its difficult to see why they would risk waiting too long.

With games currently dropping in price within weeks of release and pre-order offers starting to leave more of a sour taste in peoples mouths it's the first few months of sales that can maximise profits for a game.


Also some interesting comment on the Game Informer page:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/03/02/six-things-you-may-have-missed-in-the-2013-tomb-raider-reboot.aspx?PostPageIndex=2


"Took me a while to work out the missing GPS cache's - but have finished TR-2013 as 100% now ! First time I've completed a game to entirety - in many years...
Can't wait for ROTTR - I'm hoping to get an XB1 - it's the REASON for me to get an XB1.
I wonder if there will be a 'limited edition' console also - TombRaider on the outside - like HALO - or CALL OF DUTY....?"


"Thanks to Stella's site I got the last GPS - never did the multi-player to get the 100% though.

Like you I am looking out for a console edition - a white one would be great - hopefully with a 1TB or larger drive. Am pretty sure MS will do a bundle as this is their paid exclusive and they will want to promote it as hard as possible to move units."

and here:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/02/04/five-ways-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-is-improving-upon-the-reboot.aspx?PageIndex=2#comments

"For me, someone who only plays Bioware games, I really enjoyed the hell out of TR. I don't like Anime and those style games, Fatal Fame was good, So something like TR was refreshing. I look forward to the next one. XBOne definitely on purchase list now."


and here:
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2015/02/20/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-gear-guide.aspx

"I've been looking forward to this game every since I finished the Reboot. It's gotten to the point that I'm seriously considering buying an Xbox One just for this game."



While I am not suggesting this represents the world it is proof that there is a market out there for gamers and TR fans.

d1n0_xD
3rd Mar 2015, 14:23
^ Pretty good stuff there. I noticed that some fans still think that the reboot was a disaster so they predict the same for RotTR, even if there's no substantial evidence for that claim.

Driber
3rd Mar 2015, 15:24
I know they can't say about the release and I accept that but Darrel himself said CD would try to answer concerns about the deal and clearly they havn't so that quote was why I feel it belongs in the chronology.

Well, he didn't say he'll "try", he said he'll answer to the best of their ability.

If the contract with MS for now prevents them from answering certain questions such as if the game comes to PS4/PC, then it is not within their ability, hence why they haven't answered those questions, plain and simple.


Microsoft is the greatest, Xbox is the best... Loads of us have been supporting this series for many years and the PS/PC platforms back to the 90's but all that is forgotten because now MS is best. The very least we deserve is respect and I don't believe we are getting that. Missing TR at Christmas and watching loads of casual gamers play the game before most of the hardcore fans is not nice. Having a TR developer who don't care about our larger side of the fanbase is much worse and Darrell could come on here and say he does want us as part of TR's future but he won't. We fought for TR in the darker days in large numbers but now they show no fight for us.

No offense, but it looks like some of you really don't know what you want. On one side you decry CD for being "condescending and disrespectful" when they say they care about the PS/PC fanbase, and on the other side you keep trying to push them into saying that they care about the PS/PC fanbase.

Be honest and realistic for a minute here. Tell me, how is Darrell coming to the forum and posting a message such as "I'm a fan just like you and I really care about you all" not going to cause already angry fans to lash out at him more and responding with the same old "Well if you really care about us, why do insist on pissing off your fanbase and sucking up to MS all the time???!!!!"

Don't tell me that you think that Darrell coming here and just posting nice sounding feelz is going to make everything better and will cause all the bad vibes and sour grapes to magically disappear...


Well I am a scientist so I think in logic

Well, being a scientist doesn't necessarily mean one thinks logically all the time. The fact that there are scientists who are also hardcore creationists says enough, I'd say.


but I am very much invested and care what happens to TR. I support the series and thought it was amazing since the start and anything that is going to stop me getting to be a part in the future of TR or enjoying the upcoming TR games then sure I will fight it to the last.

And that's absolutely fine. But I think what Tecstar was getting at was that if people would approach the situation with a more reasonable and logical attitude, there might be less "hurt" than if people just approach it with an emotional attitude.

That's of course not to say that people shouldn't be emotional. Not at all. But sometimes it seems that emotion is overriding logic and reason.


You also say they don't care about the fans. That is YOUR perception because you don't like what they are doing. The two things aren't the same. I believe they do care about the fans because they have always had a presence here and do read the boards. When there were issues with TR2013 they were here almost daily at one point posting updates on fixes. You might not see it, but they are here and care. I also believe that nearly every person who creates something artistic for an audience cares about making something as best as they can and that their audience will love. They are not churning out paper napkins, they are creating a labour of love and to say they don't care is doing them a great disservice.

I just have to quote this paragraph because I think it is great and bares repeating.

Well put, Tecstar :thumb:


Given the exclusivity, whether timed or not, my interest in Rise of The Tomb Raider has pretty much vanished. I was hyped for the reboot back in 2013 because I could buy it for my laptop (no room for a console & TV in my flat, so not getting it for PS4 or XB1), and loved that they were finally making a new one, with a more realistically proportioned Lara.

How exactly was pre-reboot Lara supposedly "unrealistically proportioned"?


If AOD or TRU went down badly and there was not the demand for another game then neither of the two reboots would have happened and the series would have gone. Would CD have chosen to take on series that didn't have much support?

As I said to dayoum...

Show me proof of your claim that TR9 happened and was successful because of the money that loyal fans of the franchise brought in and not because of the casual gamer market. I need reliable statistics, or else I'll have to take your claim are pure, unsubstantial, speculation.


Care about the fans - don't sign the deal and that goes for the next game too.

Care about the fans - do exactly as the fans tell you to do. Every time. With everything.


Which is literally impossible, as fans often contradict each other regarding what they want.


I think there is a big distinction between the creative team who do care and their managers like Darrell at the top who don't. I don't think everyone at Crystal is bad by any stretch.

I agree that there's a distinction between the creative team and the "suits", if it were. But you can't fault Tecstar for not differentiating them in this instance, because he responded to people who kept lumping them together, under the banner "SE/CD".


Oh ofcourse however could they make a game with no "help" from their good friends at Microsoft, surely the next TR would have been a half finished disaster without them. We should all be so very grateful they saved the franchise that has only been around for 18 years from such a horrible fate...

AOD was not underfunded, it was an unfinished game because they ran out of time, because they had a deadline set by external people from Sony (oh this sounds familiar) and Paramount pictures for the Cradle of Life. Core said Edios forced them to get it out before it was ready. It is then much more likely that a game forced to be released for black friday Holiday 2015 sales due to a deal with an external party in Microsoft (just like Paramount in 2003) will parallel AOD than any other would.

We are now getting very deep into the reams of speculation, but one thing I'll say in response to this is this - you can't really say that the MS deal will put TR10 in more danger of this than if it wasn't for the deal.

Remember, SE is still the parent company, and SE has shareholders, too. The scenario that you're painting is equally likely to happen with or without the deal as far as we know.


Yes, I've started using OO out of my own, but the same goes with MS Office. I've started using it before I've had a computing class at school.

But with OO you weren't forced to use it in the same was as MS Office because of your school curriculum. So there's there difference that may have caused (part of) your hate/dislike towards MS products.


Yeah, but people were disappointed anyway and a few of them still aren't over it ;) Still, 5 years is a long time, considering they did deliver this game for Nintendo about the same time PS3 premiered so they could've released it on PS3 as well or at least early on 2007. I completely understand these people feelings.

The Nintendo comparison doesn't work because those consoles were already released years before TRL was released, thus the devs already knew how to port to those consoles. Different story with the PS3, which as I said didn't even exist when they were developing TRL.

So no, I don't understand these people's feelings. Well, I mean, I understand them, but I find them unreasonable and illogical.


Oops, you're right :D No idea why I did that and never saw this mistake... :scratch: I think I was writing the post late at night.

Heh, it happens to the best of us :D


Which will only add to the frustration, which is my point. People won't be able to celebrate the anniversary with the game so the frustration level will get even higher.

I see your point.


I believe the others already explained this part perfectly.

They haven't. All I've seen is pure speculation and assumptions.

PS. At first I thought you were quoting me. Then I discovered the quote came from Tecstar. Can I please ask you to put people's names in the quote tags if you're switching to someone else's post?


Presence on the forum and treating everyone equally are two different things.

Correct, but Tecstar still gave good reasons why he believes that they care about the fans. If they don't care, they wouldn't be here, reaching out to the fans, and continuously supporting and building the community.


They chose MS's money over mine and my loyal support by signing the deal that hurts my feelings as a longtime, loyal fan of the game = they don't care about me.

Well, you can argue that what they are doing isn't enough for you, personally, but you can't say that they flat-out don't care about the fans, period. That is, as Tecstar said, doing them a disservice.


Sure, but all they care about is "to deliver an amazing game for xbox" - SE/CD's words.

That's a weaselly way of putting it.


Calling MS their best friends is, reading between the lines, pretty much calling them the greatest.

They didn't say "best". You're just not reading between the lines, you're flat out making up words.


We shall see how many of those gamers will buy ROTTR, ok?

No we won't. There's no way of tracking how many copies sold are sold to "hardcore TR fans", as Tecstar put it.


(there're hardcore TR fans who said they won't buy it until it comes out of every platform, just for your information)

Oh sure, I don't doubt that. The question is, how big of a difference will it make IF those words turn to action.


If you want numbers for TR'13, just go here: http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly/2013/Global/ and here: http://www.vgchartz.com/yearly/2014/Global/ and see how many copies were sold on PS and how many on xbox.


We already know the global statistics. That doesn't really help your argument.


Exactly my point about the logic in not waiting too long for a PS4/PC release. SE will want to maxmise sales on ALL platforms so why would they not ride the wave rather than wait until the tide has gone out?

Agreed.


^ Pretty good stuff there. I noticed that some fans still think that the reboot was a disaster so they predict the same for RotTR, even if there's no substantial evidence for that claim.

TR9 was a disaster? lol, totally missed that disaster then :p

Meh, sounds more like sour grapes. TR9 sold 7.5 million copies and set sales records in the first months. It was a huge financial success, and got much critical acclaim.

d1n0_xD
3rd Mar 2015, 15:42
Well, he didn't say he'll "try", he said he'll answer to the best of their ability.

If the contract with MS for now prevents them from answering certain questions such as if the game comes to PS4/PC, then it is not within their ability, hence why they haven't answered those questions, plain and simple.

It's amazing how people don't understand this simple thing.


Care about the fans - do exactly as the fans tell you to do. Every time. With everything.


Which is literally impossible, as fans often contradict each other regarding what they want.

Yeah, seeing some of the wishes in the wishthread makes me think "OH GOD NO!!!" so listening to fans isn't always a good idea. Everyone has their own vision what they want, and while to them it seems good, in reality it really isn't, or at least to the majority it isnt. Not to say there aren't some great ideas :D

So yeah, caring does not mean following blindly. :)




TR9 was a disaster? lol, totally missed that disaster then :p

Meh, sounds more like sour grapes. TR9 sold 7.5 million copies and set sales records in the first months. It was a huge financial success, and got much critical acclaim.

Exactly my point, TR2013 was a success, sale-wise and game-wise, but like you said, some sour grapes are still dissing the reboot, I read a comment on FB saying how "the deal was expected since the reboot was a disaster" :p

Larafan1996
3rd Mar 2015, 16:52
I'm sure tr10 will be fine and a success as SE already got their external funds so they'll have their cake and eat it at our expense. No doubt they will go waste it on another vaporware tech demo for 8 years. I was just replying to the rather horrid notion that we should be grateful for the deal. I just can't understand why any customer and especially TR fans defends this.

MS, Sony and SquareEnix aren't your buddies, you don't work for them so why are there people trying to do their job for them for free. They cheer them on with each more awful deal and then try to suppress voice the rest of us who don't have some irrational attatchment to the companies who make these machines.

You speak of logic but as a fan and customer that doesn't seem logical at all, what do you think would have happend if everyone just stayed quiet after the xbox one's plans were revealed? They would have got away with it and Sony would have no doubt followed next. Customers and TR fans need to stick together because no one else will stand up for us.

Maybe if we as community had made a bigger opposition to the Underworld dlc (selling the ending to the story and for only one part of your fanbase, still can't believe it), Guardian of light and tr2013 dlc timed exclusives we wouldnt have got to this state because really who even thought this nonesense was possible before the announcement last year.

d1n0_xD
3rd Mar 2015, 17:16
^ We're not defending them, at least I'm not, I'm just saying the deal's been done, nothing can be changed about that, and we shall have to wait for the PS/PC releases that are likely going to happen :)

Should they made the deal again? No

Should I scream demanding that RotTR is out on every platform at the same time? No.

Should I be angry if the game never releases on other platforms? Hell yes!

Should I be patient and wait for the game to come out on the platform of my choice? Yes.

Driber
3rd Mar 2015, 17:36
I'm sure tr10 will be fine and a success as SE already got their external funds so they'll have their cake and eat it at our expense. No doubt they will go waste it on another vaporware tech demo for 8 years. I was just replying to the rather horrid notion that we should be grateful for the deal. I just can't understand why any customer and especially TR fans defends this.

MS, Sony and SquareEnix aren't your buddies, you don't work for them so why are there people trying to do their job for them for free. They cheer them on with each more awful deal and then try to suppress voice the rest of us who don't have some irrational attatchment to the companies who make these machines.

You speak of logic but as a fan and customer that doesn't seem logical at all, what do you think would have happend if everyone just stayed quiet after the xbox one's plans were revealed? They would have got away with it and Sony would have no doubt followed next. Customers and TR fans need to stick together because no one else will stand up for us.

Maybe if we as community had made a bigger opposition to the Underworld dlc (selling the ending to the story and for only one part of your fanbase, still can't believe it), Guardian of light and tr2013 dlc timed exclusives we wouldnt have got to this state because really who even thought this nonesense was possible before the announcement last year.

I think the one who is being irrational right now is you. You're arguing against boogiemen that don't exist.

People haven't been quiet, and I've seen no one advocating that people should have been quiet about the deal.

Suppressing voices? What on earth are you talking about? Who is suppressing you? Where?

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=146569 > nearly 2000 posts, most of them critical of the deal. Where is this supposed suppression you speak of?

As for attachment - I think we all have some level of attachment to the devs who give us these great games. I don't see why anything less than pure hatred and bitterness should suddenly be labeled as irrational attachment.

d1n0_xD
3rd Mar 2015, 17:43
^ Man, I remember me being on fire that day, look at my posts :p And I'm still getting notes on the post I posted on tumblr in which I'm "boycotting" RotTR :p

Driber
3rd Mar 2015, 17:48
^ Man, I remember me being on fire that day, look at my posts :p And I'm still getting notes on the post I posted on tumblr in which I'm "boycotting" RotTR :p

Heh, yes, I remember you royally pissed off that day. And look at you now, being one of the voices of reason here :D

Just because a fan doesn't spend every waking minute for 6 months straight posting angry posts and making bitter jabs at every opportunity, doesn't mean he rolled over and became the company's lapdog. Sheesh...

Larafan1996
3rd Mar 2015, 18:09
I'm afraid it does exist. Look outside here to facebook, to tumblr, twiter, youtube (this is where these casual fans are that everyone is so enthusiastic about selling to after all) every post hundreds of comments about the deal and for every fan who mentions they are dissapointed with what's happening there's a bunch of idiots there telling people to get over it, deal with it, it's just a business, xbox is best, well playstation took Street fighter, Uncharted is better anyway, Sony pony (what does that even mean?!?!?), tears are delicious (again what is this) or some other console warrior stupidity.

Tr has been dragged staight into the middle of a playground mudslinging contests between fools on each side and the discusssion can't even be about the game anymore. It's about the deal, it's about Sony & Microsoft but not Tomb raider. I play on PC as I have since the start and it's so frustrating to see TR be stuck in the middle of this now.

d1n0_xD
3rd Mar 2015, 18:25
^ Gotta agree on that, it's sad that it turns into a console war, but hey, those people are trolls and fanboys. There are fanboys on both sides. Sometimes I'm ashamed of the PC community too. "PC master race" my ass.

Facebook and Youtube comments aren't really the place for you to post your dissatisfaction. I mean, they are, but expect backlash from fanboys.

Driber
3rd Mar 2015, 20:40
I'm afraid it does exist. Look outside here to facebook, to tumblr, twiter, youtube (this is where these casual fans are that everyone is so enthusiastic about selling to after all) every post hundreds of comments about the deal and for every fan who mentions they are dissapointed with what's happening there's a bunch of idiots there telling people to get over it, deal with it, it's just a business, xbox is best, well playstation took Street fighter, Uncharted is better anyway, Sony pony (what does that even mean?!?!?), tears are delicious (again what is this) or some other console warrior stupidity.

But that's no boogieman, that's just fanboyism. Just ignore the fanboys, their opinion don't count :p

But why even go to YT to discuss TR anyway? As Dino mentioned, that's one of the worst places to have any meaningful discussion. And oh boy don't even get me started on bloody tumblr!


Tr has been dragged staight into the middle of a playground mudslinging contests between fools on each side and the discusssion can't even be about the game anymore. It's about the deal, it's about Sony & Microsoft but not Tomb raider. I play on PC as I have since the start and it's so frustrating to see TR be stuck in the middle of this now.

I just had a quick browse through your post history, and I see that almost all of your posts have been about the MS deal since you joined the forum. So aren't you in a bit of a glass house there with that complaint? ;)

Why don't you set an example and engage in discussions about the actual game, for example here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=151737)? I haven't seen you posting in that thread yet :)

Larafan1996
3rd Mar 2015, 21:40
This is very true and I apologize, the deal has put somewhat of a damper on the enthusiasm on my favorite franchise for the moment and like many others I am simply venting because what else can we do in the face of big business. I am excited to see Lara can swim again and hope she will be swan diving once more as I am to see a bear, makes me nostalgic for the first encounter in the Core original. However I miss a lot of the things from the old games that made the franchise unique, I'd much prefer to see Lara exploring ancient places undisturbed, evading devious trap mechanisms and solving puzzles than performing those mortal kombat style finishers (seriously how nasty was Lara in the reboot?!?!) on waves of faceless goons.

d1n0_xD
3rd Mar 2015, 21:47
^ I liked the finishers and I hope they will stay, and that they'll add more varieties. But I'd also like to see the return of exploring ancient places, and I gotta say, this next game looks like it will deliver, but we'll see. I certainly like the locations :D

dayoum
3rd Mar 2015, 21:53
I don't think so. Most customers are casual gamers, not long time TR fans.

The Angel of Darkness very nearly killed Tomb Raider. [...] AJ.R is under no illusions about Angel of Darkness's problems, but he believes it was given short shrift by critics back in 2003. Kristan Reed's Eurogamer review called it "a marked backward step" and a "half-baked, unfinished travesty" that was DOA for all except the most dedicated Tomb Raider fans. [...] "I wanted our voices to finally be heard and to show the fan base is still alive after 11 years," he says. The end goal is to persuade Square Enix to greenlight an HD remaster. But only if it's done correctly. [...] Tomb Raider is a Crystal Dynamics operation now, and Lara's heading off in a new direction with an all-new backstory. "And even if they did remake it for the fans," Angel of Darkness modder and amateur filmmaker Bob 'TRJTA' Smolders points out, "I think most of the people on the internet and everywhere would be like 'oh god, not that game again.'" source (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-10-12-the-fans-who-would-fix-tomb-raiders-most-broken-adventure)

Luddington: ... People love Lara and there is such a huge fanbase that you don't want to disappoint," she said. source (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a389752/camilla-luddington-to-voice-lara-croft-in-tomb-raider-reboot.html#~p5Ugf72gtAv5Ws)

Gallagher: Tomb Raider in 2013 was a success due in large part to your continued support. source (http://www.pcgamer.com/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-release-exclusively-on-xbox/)



Show me proof of your claim that TR9 happened and was successful because of the money that loyal fans of the franchise brought in and not because of the casual gamer market.
I've never said it was delivered because of fans money since it's completely different studio. What I meant was that Reboot happened because TR still had a big fanbase - the risk (changing Lara's character) was worth, they knew they'd earn the money from the product anyway, even if some of the fans would turn their backs on them. Plus, look above.


But with OO you weren't forced to use it in the same was as MS Office because of your school curriculum. So there's there difference that may have caused (part of) your hate/dislike towards MS products.
Nope, I wasn't forced into using MS Office. I started doing it BEFORE I've had computing class at school so I was really bored while most of the people in my class were completely green and they had to learn the basics. It's not the hate, I just don't like MS Office, but it's not because it's MS. OO is just more friendly for me.


PS. At first I thought you were quoting me. Then I discovered the quote came from Tecstar. Can I please ask you to put people's names in the quote tags if you're switching to someone else's post?
I'll try, even tho it takes a lot of time which I usually don't have ;) Btw: is there a way to write on this forum from an Android app? If yes, which one should I get?

Error96_
3rd Mar 2015, 23:24
Well, he didn't say he'll "try", he said he'll answer to the best of their ability.

If the contract with MS for now prevents them from answering certain questions such as if the game comes to PS4/PC, then it is not within their ability, hence why they haven't answered those questions, plain and simple.

He said 'send questions to us and we'll answer etc. After that statement they have gone quiet and not answered questions on the deal.


No offense, but it looks like some of you really don't know what you want. On one side you decry CD for being "condescending and disrespectful" when they say they care about the PS/PC fanbase, and on the other side you keep trying to push them into saying that they care about the PS/PC fanbase.

Be honest and realistic for a minute here. Tell me, how is Darrell coming to the forum and posting a message such as "I'm a fan just like you and I really care about you all" not going to cause already angry fans to lash out at him more and responding with the same old "Well if you really care about us, why do insist on pissing off your fanbase and sucking up to MS all the time???!!!!"

Don't tell me that you think that Darrell coming here and just posting nice sounding feelz is going to make everything better and will cause all the bad vibes and sour grapes to magically disappear....

I think there is putting the effort and there is just not trying. If he came down here then sure he will get some flak but at least he tried and shows that the PS/PC fanbase are thought about by him rather than only MS.


And that's absolutely fine. But I think what Tecstar was getting at was that if people would approach the situation with a more reasonable and logical attitude, there might be less "hurt" than if people just approach it with an emotional attitude.

You can see from Darrell's statement that he has a long term plan for a closer collaboration with MS. What seems clear is that he may do another exclusivity deal on future TR's. Is not a damage is done scenario like ripping off a plaster because this is in danger of happening again. We don't want this so is about not letting Darrell think the fans have become more accepting of it - the justification to do it again. I feel the emotional sentiment behind it show how passionate the PS/PC fans are and is a positive in that way.


Which is literally impossible, as fans often contradict each other regarding what they want.


How many fans have been wanting the exclusivity deal with MS? This isn't just a couple of fans saying give Lara a jetpack in the next tittle. Don't sign another deal is a big desire of the fanbase as a whole.

BlueSkiesXXV
4th Mar 2015, 10:42
It is not the end of the world, as the next game is just one of many. I will be able to watch some game walkthroughs on YouTube (playing many modern games is like that anyway...ha!!!). Tomb Raider is bigger than any one developer. We had the glory CORE years and now the CRYSTAL years. At some point in the future TR will come home to us (all of us).

Driber
4th Mar 2015, 11:46
The Angel of Darkness very nearly killed Tomb Raider. [...] AJ.R is under no illusions about Angel of Darkness's problems, but he believes it was given short shrift by critics back in 2003. Kristan Reed's Eurogamer review called it "a marked backward step" and a "half-baked, unfinished travesty" that was DOA for all except the most dedicated Tomb Raider fans. [...] "I wanted our voices to finally be heard and to show the fan base is still alive after 11 years," he says. The end goal is to persuade Square Enix to greenlight an HD remaster. But only if it's done correctly. [...] Tomb Raider is a Crystal Dynamics operation now, and Lara's heading off in a new direction with an all-new backstory. "And even if they did remake it for the fans," Angel of Darkness modder and amateur filmmaker Bob 'TRJTA' Smolders points out, "I think most of the people on the internet and everywhere would be like 'oh god, not that game again.'" source (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-10-12-the-fans-who-would-fix-tomb-raiders-most-broken-adventure)

Luddington: ... People love Lara and there is such a huge fanbase that you don't want to disappoint," she said. source (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a389752/camilla-luddington-to-voice-lara-croft-in-tomb-raider-reboot.html#~p5Ugf72gtAv5Ws)

Gallagher: Tomb Raider in 2013 was a success due in large part to your continued support. source (http://www.pcgamer.com/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-will-release-exclusively-on-xbox/)


None of this proofs anything, other than that the TR fanbase is large. We already know this.

Notice how not even Darrell puts a quantifier on it. "In large part" could still mean the minority. If 30% of the customers are long time fans, that's something I would consider "large" as well. But it would still be the lesser part of the total.

And to be clear - the above was an example. I do not think the fanbase makes up 30%. It's probably less than that.


I've never said it was delivered because of fans money since it's completely different studio.

Oh really...?

"When it comes to TR, the custmers are mostly fans."

"Without us, TR would've died a couple of years ago. Reboot would never happen. "

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?p=2109154#post2109154


What I meant was that Reboot happened because TR still had a big fanbase - the risk (changing Lara's character) was worth, they knew they'd earn the money from the product anyway, even if some of the fans would turn their backs on them.

Did you just contradict yourself there? :whistle:


Plus, look above.

I refuted that above.


Nope, I wasn't forced into using MS Office. I started doing it BEFORE I've had computing class at school so I was really bored while most of the people in my class were completely green and they had to learn the basics. It's not the hate, I just don't like MS Office, but it's not because it's MS. OO is just more friendly for me.

Okay, moving on from that point.


I'll try, even tho it takes a lot of time which I usually don't have

Thanks. It shouldn't take much time, though, because you can use the multi quote feature, which automatically already puts the quote tags with the names in the reply window. From there you can easily cut the quote into smaller parts by using the quote button in the text editor, that's how I usually do it :)


Btw: is there a way to write on this forum from an Android app? If yes, which one should I get?

Not sure. We've looked into a few apps, but they seem to all require modification to the forum in order to work.

But you should have a browser on your Android, right? We do have a mobile skin that looks app-ish, heh.


He said 'send questions to us and we'll answer etc.

No, that's not what he said. He said "send us questions and we'll answer to the best of our ability". You conveniently left out the crucial part of his sentence that makes a world of difference.

He never promised to "answer any question that people send him", as you are now wrongly portraying it.


After that statement they have gone quiet and not answered questions on the deal.

Again, if the contract with MS for now prevents them from answering certain questions such as if the game comes to PS4/PC, then it is not within their ability, hence why they haven't answered those questions, plain and simple. There are no broken promises there, as you are now wrongly portraying it.


I think there is putting the effort and there is just not trying. If he came down here then sure he will get some flak but at least he tried and shows that the PS/PC fanbase are thought about by him rather than only MS.

Well, that may slightly ease your mind, but I'm sure him trying will make things only worse for many other fans if he doesn't do it 100% correctly. And let's be honest here, in this situation there is probably nothing he could say right now that will be considered as 100% correctly by all fans.

Look at some of the comments here where people express wish to stop talking about the deal and rather talk about the game. I think that to some the deal is like a wound that is trying to crust over. Darrell coming here and just posting "feelz" instead of addressing the actual elephant in the room (when is the game coming to PS4/PC) will then just rip that wound right open again.


You can see from Darrell's statement that he has a long term plan for a closer collaboration with MS. What seems clear is that he may do another exclusivity deal on future TR's. Is not a damage is done scenario like ripping off a plaster because this is in danger of happening again. We don't want this so is about not letting Darrell think the fans have become more accepting of it - the justification to do it again. I feel the emotional sentiment behind it show how passionate the PS/PC fans are and is a positive in that way.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm not saying people shouldn't be emotional. Not at all. But sometimes it seems that emotion is overriding logic and reason.

By all means, show your concerns. Show your passion. Nothing wrong with that. Just be careful not to let emotion cloud your judgement and override reason and logic when it comes to debating the facts, is all I'm saying.

As for wanting Darrell not to forget that the fans don't accept the deal (and this is something I wanted to address in the latest Q&A thread when you basically posted the exact same sentiment 'I don't want the devs to get the impression that this issue has 'blown over'', but I didn't want to get into a debate with you there, as we need those sessions to stay orderly) - I really wouldn't worry about that happening. CD is very aware of the backlash.


How many fans have been wanting the exclusivity deal with MS?

I don't know, you tell me how many.


This isn't just a couple of fans saying give Lara a jetpack in the next tittle. Don't sign another deal is a big desire of the fanbase as a whole.

I can show you examples of people rooting for a perm exclusive deal with MS. So at which point does it become "the fanbase as a whole"? 80%? 90? 95? 99.9?

Tecstar70
4th Mar 2015, 12:43
FWIW I just read this.... http://blog.tombraiders.net/2014/10/rise-of-tomb-raider-petition-update-or.html which confirms that CD are well aware of fan feelings.


While the petition is a greeat thing in allowing people to express themselves I do not feel it will have any impact on The Deal(tm).
There are approx. 16000 people who have signed, approx. 4000 people in the US, 3000 in the UK, 1300 in France and the rest scattered around the world.

Source: http://blog.tombraiders.net/2014/10/rise-of-tomb-raider-petition-nets-15000.html

With 4.53M sales of TR2013 and 1.17M sales of TR: DE the 16,000 kind of pales into insignificance if it is representative of the fan base and puts into perspective some of Dayoums points about fanbase size.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 14:39
Oh really...?

"When it comes to TR, the custmers are mostly fans."

"Without us, TR would've died a couple of years ago. Reboot would never happen. "

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?p=2109154#post2109154
Yes, really. There's nothing about money so please don't put not my words into my mouth. TR would've died after AoD, which was a complete disaster. But thanks to the hardcore fans, the interest in Lara Croft's journeys was still alive and well, meaning, thanks to the fans it was worth to take the risk, change Lara's story and make a Reboot. FOR us, FOR the fans who stood with her for so long, even when she fell down (AoD).


Did you just contradict yourself there? :whistle:
Nope ;)


Thanks. It shouldn't take much time, though, because you can use the multi quote feature, which automatically already puts the quote tags with the names in the reply window. From there you can easily cut the quote into smaller parts by using the quote button in the text editor, that's how I usually do it :)
Ah, thanks. Well, this forum is quite different from forums I usually use. We have something called "cut quote" where we have to mark the text, hit the button and it adds marked text as a quote with the names to the "quick reply" window so here I was using "copy/paste, add quote tags" ;)


Not sure. We've looked into a few apps, but they seem to all require modification to the forum in order to work.

But you should have a browser on your Android, right? We do have a mobile skin that looks app-ish, heh.
Yeah, I use Opera Mini (fast with low battery drain) and there's no "log in" button.


As for wanting Darrell not to forget that the fans don't accept the deal (and this is something I wanted to address in the latest Q&A thread when you basically posted the exact same sentiment 'I don't want the devs to get the impression that this issue has 'blown over'', but I didn't want to get into a debate with you there, as we need those sessions to stay orderly) - I really wouldn't worry about that happening. CD is very aware of the backlash.
I wouldn't be that sure tbh. Business is business. They knew there will be lots of backlash, hate, even boycotting, but they still made the deal. Even tho they said they could make ROTTR without MS money. Also, they say MS came to them while Spencer said CD came to them. We'll probably never know who's telling the truth.


I don't know, you tell me how many.
Nobody? ;) Reaction says all.


FWIW I just read this.... http://blog.tombraiders.net/2014/10/rise-of-tomb-raider-petition-update-or.html which confirms that CD are well aware of fan feelings.


While the petition is a greeat thing in allowing people to express themselves I do not feel it will have any impact on The Deal(tm).
There are approx. 16000 people who have signed, approx. 4000 people in the US, 3000 in the UK, 1300 in France and the rest scattered around the world.

Source: http://blog.tombraiders.net/2014/10/rise-of-tomb-raider-petition-nets-15000.html

With 4.53M sales of TR2013 and 1.17M sales of TR: DE the 16,000 kind of pales into insignificance if it is representative of the fan base and puts into perspective some of Dayoums points about fanbase size.
This petition was never famous because the creator was unable to promote it properly. I haven't seen it until a couple of weeks ago and I'm on tumblr and twitter where a lot of things like this comes up.

Tecstar70
4th Mar 2015, 15:02
This petition was never famous because the creator was unable to promote it properly. I haven't seen it until a couple of weeks ago and I'm on tumblr and twitter where a lot of things like this comes up.

I would suggest that both Stella's excellent TR site and the survey itself are well enough known in the TR fan community to get 16,000 signatures. If we are talking about this massive fan-base you have referred to who have propped up the franchise after AoD and made TR2013 such a success then surely this is as good indication as any of the size of the fanbase worldwide who are prepared to voice their disastisfaction about the The Deal(tm).

At least I have had a shot at quantifying the level of fan support. You don't seem able to, instead relying on anecdotal evidence and gut feeling.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 16:18
^Ok, you've asked for it:

https://www.facebook.com/TombRaider
https://www.facebook.com/WorldOfTombRaider
https://www.facebook.com/TombRaiderItaly
https://www.facebook.com/laracroftbrasil
https://www.facebook.com/laracroft
https://www.facebook.com/LaraCroftTRFans
https://www.facebook.com/archaeologyoftombraider
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider/1499721493618807?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider/1499721493618807?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/stellatombraider?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/WeAreTombRaiderFans?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lara-Croft/564237346959997?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tomb-Raider-Lara-Croft-Global/167153683353496?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/TombRaiderASurvivorIsBorn?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/tombraider2013videogamefanspage?ref=br_rs

https://twitter.com/tombraider
https://twitter.com/TombRaider_
https://twitter.com/laracroft
https://twitter.com/TRArchaeology

http://www.reddit.com/r/TombRaider

http://tomb-raider-empire.deviantart.com/
http://art-of-tombraider.deviantart.com/

I hope I don't need to remind you that not everyone use facebook, twitter, reddit or deviantart, but here you have some numbers. And yes, these are only some of them. The internet is full of communities like these, it's not difficult to find them. Also, these are mostly in english. Don't forget about other languages.

Tecstar70
4th Mar 2015, 16:24
^Ok, you've asked for it:

https://www.facebook.com/TombRaider
https://www.facebook.com/WorldOfTombRaider
https://www.facebook.com/TombRaiderItaly
https://www.facebook.com/laracroftbrasil
https://www.facebook.com/laracroft
https://www.facebook.com/LaraCroftTRFans
https://www.facebook.com/archaeologyoftombraider
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider/1499721493618807?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rise-of-the-Tomb-Raider/1499721493618807?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/stellatombraider?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/WeAreTombRaiderFans?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lara-Croft/564237346959997?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tomb-Raider-Lara-Croft-Global/167153683353496?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/TombRaiderASurvivorIsBorn?ref=br_rs
https://www.facebook.com/tombraider2013videogamefanspage?ref=br_rs

https://twitter.com/tombraider
https://twitter.com/TombRaider_
https://twitter.com/laracroft
https://twitter.com/TRArchaeology

http://www.reddit.com/r/TombRaider

http://tomb-raider-empire.deviantart.com/
http://art-of-tombraider.deviantart.com/

I hope I don't need to remind you that not everyone use facebook, twitter, reddit or deviantart, but here you have some numbers. And yes, these are only some of them. The internet is full of communities like these, it's not difficult to find them. Also, these are mostly in english. Don't forget about other languages.


How does that evidence the size of the fan base and your statement that the fan base propped up the franchise after AoD and made TR2013 such a success? Referencing Facebook pages, Twitter accounts etc does not do that.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 16:38
How do you think? Without fanbase, would they take a risk to spend so much money on a reboot? I don't think so. But you can think whatever you want to.

EDIT: Besides, you claim the fanbase isn't really big and to prove your point you brought up ONE, not famous around the internet at all, petition while I brough a couple of links to prove my point that fan base of TR is large and is all over the internet. 16000 votes for not famous petition (which only proves that even when something is not promoted can gain quite a lot votes) and all those who followed/liked pages/accounts I liked here (which alone are about 2 million people, add other languages and other services and the number will increase). Yeah... TR fanbase isn't big at all...

WinterSoldierLTE
4th Mar 2015, 16:53
How do you think? Without fanbase, would they take a risk to spend so much money on a reboot? I don't think so. But you can think whatever you want to.

One could argue that one of the goals of the reboot was to attract a new audience that'd never played a TR game before. Which it did successfully.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 17:16
One could argue that one of the goals of the reboot was to attract a new audience that'd never played a TR game before. Which it did successfully.
But of course it was one of the goals, but nobody would take any risk to make a brand new Lara if they didn't know if it was worth this risk, especially when there is Uncharted on PS that is far more popular than TR these years.

Tecstar70
4th Mar 2015, 17:30
How do you think? Without fanbase, would they take a risk to spend so much money on a reboot? I don't think so. But you can think whatever you want to.

Well I would have thought that they wouldn't have rebooted it if they didn't have the vision to create a game that would be highly profitable with a large user base in mind and did the legacy of the franchise justice. You don't spend the amount of money that appears to have been spent without expecting a far wider audience than the fan base. Besides how many fans would have predicted the direction the reboot took? A lot of fans would rather the game played out like TR2!!

Out of the 6 million sales of TR2013 how many of these can be attributed to "fans"?

You are still backing up your statement that the fan base propped up the franchise after AoD and made TR2013 such a success with supposition and assumption.


One could argue that one of the goals of the reboot was to attract a new audience that'd never played a TR game before. Which it did successfully.
Exactly.


But of course it was one of the goals, but nobody would take any risk to make a brand new Lara if they didn't know if it was worth this risk, especially when there is Uncharted on PS that is far more popular than TR these years.

So your saying without the fanbase they wouldn't have taken the risk, but by taking the risk they weren't relying on the fanbase, rather the hope that it would appeal to a wider audience. You are contradicting yourself.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 17:47
So your saying without the fanbase they wouldn't have taken the risk, but by taking the risk they weren't relying on the fanbase, rather the hope that it would appeal to a wider audience. You are contradicting yourself.
No, you're reading it wrong. Every game producer, when it comes to games that exist for years already, won't take the risk to even produce the new game which would be based on the old one but with a new story for the main character, if the fan base is too small to bring them profit. But if the fan base is big, they do it. They do take this risk. But of course they want to interest new people to it, so they can earn more money, right? More new gamers/fans = more money, simple.


You are still backing up your statement that the fan base propped up the franchise after AoD and made TR2013 such a success with supposition and assumption.
Well and you are assuming that the fan base was non existent after AoD and Reboot was made for casual gamers, just like ROTTR is done. Funny, since there's a war now and ROTTR being timed exclusice is quite a big deal where everyone says SE/CD ditched the majority of the fan base by chosing MS money. We all know it's impossible to say how many of those who bought TR'13 were fans, but we also know, Reboot wouldn't happen if the fan base was not big enough to bring profit. And considering how expensive is to make and release a game, TR fan base must've been huge. Now it might be even bigger since TR'13 brough some new people to our Tomb.

zackdollars
4th Mar 2015, 19:53
This could turn out to be the best TR game, yet. If the team is truly focused on a single console, that would give more time to focus on the game. Less time spent getting things to work on other machines. If Microsoft is helping with development, it will be even better. I really hope this is the case. And, for those who are waiting for future ports, the game will be better for all platforms.

Driber
4th Mar 2015, 22:14
dayoum, you are failing your argument miserably, and Tecstar is absolutely correct to point out (again and again) that your evidence is nonexistent and that your argument is based on nothing more than assumptions and gut feelings.

What you are doing is the equivalent of looking up at the night sky and going "Golly gee, look at how many stars there are, I feel it makes sense that that means there is intelligent life out there" and then writing an article in Science magazine that we've found bloody aliens.

No, it doesn't work that way. Feelings are not facts. You can post how many links to communities you want, but until you can put an actual number on how many hardcore fans bought AoD and TR9, you've literally got nothing.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 22:17
^Tecstar's points are not facts either. Just feelings. But since he brought this petition, I brought some links to prove that fan base is much bigger than those who signed one, terribly promoted, petition.

SofaJockey
4th Mar 2015, 22:26
Having been away from the forum for some months I see little has changed in the discussion.
For those not on Xbox One I suggest tuning out from it and come back later.
Kneading the pain doesn't help.

I tune out from Bloodborne and The Order, the Last of Us,
as those are games I will never (probably) play.

I get that the frustration comes from a passion for the franchise,
but as has been said before, Microsoft did not buy the franchise.

Driber
4th Mar 2015, 22:26
^Tecstar's points are not facts either. Just feelings. But since he brought this petition, I brought some links to prove that fan base is much bigger than those who signed one, terribly promoted, petition.

Show me one "feeling" that Tecstar tried to pass off as fact, like you've been doing all this time.

"Terribly promoted"? lol. A quick google check shows 700+ backlinks to Stella's petition :whistle:

As for the fanbase being bigger than those who signed Stella's petition - I don't disagree. Did Tecstar disagree? I haven't seen him doing that. Maybe you just misunderstood his point...

s-jay2676
4th Mar 2015, 22:50
Well, to be honest, all of us are arguing based on assumptions and gut feelings.

Gemma_Darkmoon_
4th Mar 2015, 22:58
I would suggest that both Stella's excellent TR site and the survey itself are well enough known in the TR fan community to get 16,000 signatures. If we are talking about this massive fan-base you have referred to who have propped up the franchise after AoD and made TR2013 such a success then surely this is as good indication as any of the size of the fanbase worldwide who are prepared to voice their disastisfaction about the The Deal(tm).

At least I have had a shot at quantifying the level of fan support. You don't seem able to, instead relying on anecdotal evidence and gut feeling.

You can't boil the whole TR fan base against the deal down to 16,000 because that is how many signed one petition. It's an high number for a petition and it's wrong to belittle that. I think it was the fact that Lara is such a well known character and having such a big TR community (I mean TR gamers not just the hardcore) that meant there was always going to be more TR games even when AOD and Underworld didn't achieve quite their expectations.


A lot of fans would rather the game played out like TR2!!

TR2 is my favourite TR game to date so if it matches up to TR2 then would be great.



Having been away from the forum for some months I see little has changed in the discussion.
For those not on Xbox One I suggest tuning out from it and come back later.
Kneading the pain doesn't help.


Look at some of the comments here where people express wish to stop talking about the deal and rather talk about the game. I think that to some the deal is like a wound that is trying to crust over.

We can say lots about if Lara will have bow and arrow or pistol or where she will travel to. This is rather arbitrary if you don't get to play the game so it is a topic that is very hard to get around. While we don't have confirmed PS/PC versions the wound is still open. I don't believe like SofaJockey implied PC &PS fans should go into exile until more news but if you don't want to talk about deal you could start threads on other things. TR has been my favourite series since 96 so I not just say go forget the series for a while. In truth I enjoy the discussion with those against and just as much those for the deal.

Lara_Fan_84
4th Mar 2015, 23:00
Well, to be honest, all of us are arguing based on assumptions and gut feelings.

Not necessarily true. A lot of us are experienced gamers, even some since the 80's like me. Quite a lot of us base our arguments based on experience and fact. Not everyone, but most.

s-jay2676
4th Mar 2015, 23:17
Not necessarily true. A lot of us are experienced gamers, even some since the 80's like me. Quite a lot of us base our arguments based on experience and fact. Not everyone, but most.

Being an experienced gamer has nothing to do with it, because the sole fact about this situation is that this deal has a duration. Everything else is just speculation.

Driber
4th Mar 2015, 23:31
Well, to be honest, all of us are arguing based on assumptions and gut feelings.

That is not true. Threads on the MS deal topic (this one included) do contain a lot of facts. Just on the last couple of pages here a whole bunch of facts were presented, such as dev quotes, sales figures, petition signees, backlink numbers, etc.


Being an experienced gamer has nothing to do with it, because the sole fact about this situation is that this deal has a duration. Everything else is just speculation.

You're wrongly assuming that the only argument made in these threads was "when does TR10 come to PS4/PC".

We are discussing a lot more than just that one argument.

dayoum
4th Mar 2015, 23:39
Show me one "feeling" that Tecstar tried to pass off as fact, like you've been doing all this time.
Show me where did Tecstar proved anything. Because he didn't. All of it are feelings and assumptions. One can be wrong, one can be right, all of us are probably both: right and wrong on some parts. And all of us can say what they believe is true, which for me (and many others) is what I said. As for Tecstar's point of view - casual gamers don't care about exclusives. They just buy the game that seems interesting to them and ON their platform. Those who are pissed off are the fans and they're saying they're fans. Now look how big this whole "war" is outside of this place and tell me it's not the fact.


"Terribly promoted"? lol. A quick google check shows 700+ backlinks to Stella's petition :whistle:

As for the fanbase being bigger than those who signed Stella's petition - I don't disagree. Did Tecstar disagree? I haven't seen him doing that. Maybe you just misunderstood his point...
By what he pointed out, it looks to me like he did disagree.

This petition got a little bit popular recently (from what I've read it happened after Stella or someone else put the link on official TR facebook page). It wasn't popular when it was needed to be. Try to find it on IGN or gaming sites around the time when exclusive was announced.

s-jay2676
5th Mar 2015, 00:21
That is not true. Threads on the MS deal topic (this one included) do contain a lot of facts. Just on the last couple of pages here a whole bunch of facts were presented, such as dev quotes, sales figures, petition signees, backlink numbers, etc.

Great, facts mixed with assumption, then.


You're wrongly assuming that the only argument made in these threads was "when does TR10 come to PS4/PC".

We are discussing a lot more than just that one argument.

I'm not. The deal was and still is a part of this thread and everyone who commented on it made an assumption. And I even make another one by saying that the more I read the more I get the feeling that you think everyone who says something positive about all of this is arguing based on facts, whereas everybody else is too emotional and is arguing based on assumptions and speculation.

Driber
5th Mar 2015, 00:23
Show me where did Tecstar proved anything.

Don't try to turn it around. You show me one "feeling" that Tecstar tried to pass off as fact, like you've been doing all this time. Because that is what you seemed to be asserting a few posts back; that Tecstar is on par with you in that regard, which is an assertion that I absolutely reject.

Tecstar and I are mostly arguing from facts. You are mostly trying to appeal to a faux feeling of "common sense" (Example 1: TR fanbase is very large = without them AoD and TR9 wouldn't be a success / wouldn't have been made. Example 2: There's a lot of MS = game xyz will be a failure), which is a fallacy.


All of it are feelings and assumptions.

No, not all of it. But I'm glad you at least admit that all of your arguments are based on feelings and assumptions :p


One can be wrong, one can be right, all of us are probably both: right and wrong on some parts.

This wishy-washy feel-good platitude is meaningless in this context.


And all of us can say what they believe is true

Of course they can.


As for Tecstar's point of view - casual gamers don't care about exclusives. They just buy the game that seems interesting to them and ON their platform. Those who are pissed off are the fans and they're saying they're fans. Now look how big this whole "war" is outside of this place and tell me it's not the fact.

What's the fact? That a lot of fans are pissed off about the deal? And that most of the anger is voiced outside of this forum? Sure, I can agree with that, no problem. Never claimed the opposite.


By what he pointed out, it looks to me like he did disagree.

Well I'll let him speak for himself then. If that is correct, I'm sure he'll confirm and then we can take it from there.


This petition got a little bit popular recently (from what I've read it happened after Stella or someone else put the link on official TR facebook page). It wasn't popular when it was needed to be. Try to find it on IGN or gaming sites around the time when exclusive was announced.

So first your argument was that the petition was "badly promoted", and now you're changing it to "it has only gotten more popular recently"?

That's shifting the goal post, Sir. You lose the argument. Next you'll say "that's just one measly site" if I show you an IGN article with a link to Stella's petition from around the time when exclusive was announced. I'm not playing that game.


Great, facts mixed with assumption, then.

What's your point?


I'm not. The deal was and still is a part of this thread and everyone who commented on it made an assumption.

The deal may be the red thread, but by no means the sole topic.

And I don't accept your claim that everyone who posted in these threads have all made assumptions.


And I even make another one by saying that the more I read the more I get the feeling that you think everyone who says something positive about all of this is arguing based on facts, whereas everybody else is too emotional and is arguing based on assumptions and speculation.

You are correct, that is indeed an assumption. And a wrong one.

dayoum
5th Mar 2015, 00:43
Don't try to turn it around. You show me one "feeling" that Tecstar tried to pass off as fact, like you've been doing all this time. Because that is what you seemed to be asserting a few posts back; that Tecstar is on par with you in that regard, which is an assertion that I absolutely reject.

Exactly my point about the logic in not waiting too long for a PS4/PC release. SE will want to maxmise sales on ALL platforms so why would they not ride the wave rather than wait until the tide has gone out? With game like The Elder Scrolls 6, Mass Effect 4 and Fallout 4 being mooted for 2016 release its difficult to see why they would risk waiting too long.
Also, he says he's assuming things, just like all of us here:

My assumptions about the game release are based on what is MOST LIKELY based on the facts as we know them. I could be TOTALLY wrong but I don't think I am when taking everything into consideration.
I think I don't need to remind you that all of us read facts differently and may have a completely different point of view on them, right? So he's assumptions may be wrong and might be right. just like mine can.


Tecstar and I are mostly arguing from facts. You are mostly trying to appeal to a faux feeling of "common sense" (Example 1: TR fanbase is very large = without them AoD and TR9 wouldn't be a success / would have been made. Example 2: There's a lot of MS = game xyz will be a failure), which is a fallacy.
Once again you took my words and mixed it with your logic. AoD was a disaster and TR would've died after AoD if the fan base was not big enough to bring profit from the games that new studio hade made, aka Reborn would never happen.


So first your argument was that the petition was "badly promoted", and now you're changing it to "it has only gotten more popular recently"?
Look how old is this petition. Over 7 months. It was badly promoted over half a year ago, still is, but after it was linked on TR fb page, SOME people saw it and even about 200 more people signed it. But it's still bad promotion if this petition isn't everywhere where it could be, don't you think? Most of the things like this petition ends up on tumblr and twitter and I've never seen it until a couple of weeks ago, even tho I follow a lot of TR-related bloggers.


That's shifting the goal post, Sir. You lose the argument. Next you'll say "that's just one measly site" if I show you an IGN article with a link to Stella's petition from around the time when exclusive was announced. I'm not playing that game.
No, I'm serious. Show me an article from around that time on IGN that would mention this petition.

SofaJockey
5th Mar 2015, 10:17
But of course it was one of the goals, but nobody would take any risk to make a brand new Lara if they didn't know if it was worth this risk, especially when there is Uncharted on PS that is far more popular than TR these years.

Never played Uncharted, not sold on my platform so irrelevant to people in the same situation.

Tecstar70
5th Mar 2015, 10:18
You can't boil the whole TR fan base against the deal down to 16,000 because that is how many signed one petition. It's an high number for a petition and it's wrong to belittle that. I think it was the fact that Lara is such a well known character and having such a big TR community (I mean TR gamers not just the hardcore) that meant there was always going to be more TR games even when AOD and Underworld didn't achieve quite their expectations.
I wasn't trying to boil the whole TR fan base down to 16,000 or belittle the petition. Dayoum is saying how large the core fanbase was and how it contributed to support of the franchise post AoD and the success of TR2013. What I was trying to show was that a petiton that was promoted among the fansites attracted 16,000 signatures which in relation to the total number of overall sales was pretty small and therefore an indication of the level of core fandom. Treble or quadruple that number of you like, but its still a small percentage of 5.8 million and so I am saying that Dayoums assertion is wrong and is based on gut feeling.



Show me where did Tecstar proved anything. Because he didn't. All of it are feelings and assumptions. One can be wrong, one can be right, all of us are probably both: right and wrong on some parts. And all of us can say what they believe is true, which for me (and many others) is what I said.
But my belief is based on the facts before me and most likely outcome based on those facts. Yours are not, as you have presented assumptions and gut feelings, not facts. Yes I am making assumptions but they are substantiated ones.



As for Tecstar's point of view - casual gamers don't care about exclusives. They just buy the game that seems interesting to them and ON their platform. Those who are pissed off are the fans and they're saying they're fans. Now look how big this whole "war" is outside of this place and tell me it's not the fact.
You are missing the point. TR is a well known franchise. The exclusivity deal may attract people who recognise the franchise and make a purchase because it seems better. If you presented a parent or grandparent or anyone who wasn't a gamer with an image of Nathan Drake and Lara Croft I bet that even if they couldn't name her most would recognise Lara Croft. Associating that figure with a console will attract people because Lara is a recognisable figure.



Also, he says he's assuming things, just like all of us here:

I think I don't need to remind you that all of us read facts differently and may have a completely different point of view on them, right? So he's assumptions may be wrong and might be right. just like mine can.
Yes, my assumptions could very well be wrong but see above about what is most likely. Which of my facts can be read differently? Stating a fact should not need interpretation, neither should stating a likely outcome. They both should be a simple statement which I believe I have made.



Once again you took my words and mixed it with your logic. AoD was a disaster and TR would've died after AoD if the fan base was not big enough to bring profit from the games that new studio hade made, aka Reborn would never happen.
Again you present no evidence for this. I have attempted to show this but this is your perception and nothing else. Either substantiate these claims or stop stating them.



Look how old is this petition. Over 7 months. It was badly promoted over half a year ago, still is, but after it was linked on TR fb page, SOME people saw it and even about 200 more people signed it. But it's still bad promotion if this petition isn't everywhere where it could be, don't you think? Most of the things like this petition ends up on tumblr and twitter and I've never seen it until a couple of weeks ago, even tho I follow a lot of TR-related bloggers.
But it's on the biggest TR forum sites so fans who are interested enough - the core fans? - would most likely have seen it, wouldn't they? Your assertion that the core fans have shored up the franchise since AoD is surely evidenced here isn't it? Twitter would not be a place where you would expect to capture the core fanbase.

Error96_
5th Mar 2015, 23:00
Out of the 6 million sales of TR2013 how many of these can be attributed to "fans"?

You are still backing up your statement that the fan base propped up the franchise after AoD and made TR2013 such a success with supposition and assumption.

I think the answer is dependent of how wide you throw out the context fans. If you mean those who just enjoy picking up new TR games or those who get out there on the forums, purchase merchandise etc. Perhaps the argument is that you are viewing the definition of fans very differently. There was a large market for TR still even after AOD as many people were still purchasing the games so there is a pre-existing audience there of millions that a new series would not have. TR has the advantage of brand recognition with Lara too beyond those who play the games. TR could not survive on fan sales alone though this probably did help TR towards ticking over around TRC-AOD time. It needed publicity with a reboot to attract new gamers but a crowd who are likely to buy any new TR game helps.

Even with the hardcore fans while they may buy more DLC's and merchandise overall they may not account for much of financial sales but they do post far more than their number so have a bigger contribution to public outlook. Having them on board can really help promote a game.


But it's on the biggest TR forum sites so fans who are interested enough - the core fans? - would most likely have n it, wouldn't they? Your assertion that the core fans have shored up the franchise since AoD is surely evidenced here isn't it? Twitter would not be a place where you would expect to capture the core fanbase.

Many people support political parties views but only a small fraction people join them. Those signing the petition are the tip of the iceberg above the water's surface rather than the whole iceberg. A Core fanbase doesn't shore up a franchise when it's on a successful run but when it's having a bad day. It is before the reboots when you will see the shoring up effect from the fans rather than after.

BlueSkiesXXV
6th Mar 2015, 10:04
Even after all these months I still find it hard to believe that a multi-platform game (with a strong leaning to PlayStation & PC) was announced as an Xbox exclusive (timed or whatever). When I originally read the article, the first thought into my head was something like 'Motherfunsters!!!'.

Now, it looks like the only new info since the first announcement is that the game will also be PUBLISHED my Microsoft. The chances of this game ever coming to PlayStation now look even more remote (PC maybe more likely).

Until I hear anything official, this game will not be appearing on PlayStation. Please link something official, if there is anything.
I am also looking forward to 'Elite: Dangerous'. This game will be a timed console exclusive (XBONE). However, David Braben himself tweeted...Mac of course, then down the line we will support more, including PS4. The XB1 is a timed exclusive.

See the diff, the news might suck, but a plan for PlayStation is CONFIRMED!

WinterSoldierLTE
6th Mar 2015, 10:49
Never played Uncharted, not sold on my platform so irrelevant to people in the same situation.

You're not missing anything. The first one has a good story but the combat is annoying and gets old after 4 levels. All you do, or rather what you have to do, is duck behind cover, pop up and shoot a couple rounds, duck back down, repeat. I think it's safe to say that if you played TR2013 you played 'Uncharted' only with a much better story and better gameplay.

Tecstar70
6th Mar 2015, 11:07
Even after all these months I still find it hard to believe that a multi-platform game (with a strong leaning to PlayStation & PC) was announced as an Xbox exclusive (timed or whatever). When I originally read the article, the first thought into my head was something like 'Motherfunsters!!!'.

Now, it looks like the only new info since the first announcement is that the game will also be PUBLISHED my Microsoft. The chances of this game ever coming to PlayStation now look even more remote (PC maybe more likely).
Why? Just because MS are publishing it? That doesn't mean anything with regards to other platforms. SE can publish it like they did before. This doesn't make any difference to the likelihood of a PC/PS4 release in early 2016.


Until I hear anything official, this game will not be appearing on PlayStation. Please link something official, if there is anything.
This is true. Don't expect to hear anythign this year though.



I am also looking forward to 'Elite: Dangerous'. This game will be a timed console exclusive (XBONE). However, David Braben himself tweeted...Mac of course, then down the line we will support more, including PS4. The XB1 is a timed exclusive.
Elite was one of the main reasons I bought a BBC B computer back in the day. I have to steer clear beacuse my life would disappear if I got this...


See the diff, the news might suck, but a plan for PlayStation is CONFIRMED!
I don't think that Elite is as key to selling Xboxes as a franchise like Halo or Tomb Rader would be, but what it does show is that deals should be viewed as individual entities and just because one deal does something it doesn't follow that all other deals will or should.

It is only a short conversation, but I think Brabens words exemplify how studios have to consider these things carefully and that they aren't as clear cut as "show me the money".

"I think there were lots of factors - it was a hard decision," he said, "they're both great platforms."

Braben suggested that his studio's previous partnerships with Microsoft, such as with the Xbox One launch title Zoo Tycoon, gave him more reasons to partner with Microsoft.

"We've had a long relationship with Microsoft," he told GameSpot.

"The Xbox audience has been very good to us. We've sold quite a few Xbox games with Microsoft. We also had a launch title for Xbox One, so our tools and technology has been battle-hardened on Xbox One already.

"We have a lot of experienced people at the studio who know Xbox One intimately, so it actually is a very logical choice for us. Also, Xbox One sales have been doing very well since the price went down, so it's an exciting time. But it was a difficult decision."

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/elite-dangerous-dev-says-xbox-one-exclusivity-was-/1100-6425709/

dayoum
6th Mar 2015, 14:52
You're not missing anything. The first one has a good story but the combat is annoying and gets old after 4 levels. All you do, or rather what you have to do, is duck behind cover, pop up and shoot a couple rounds, duck back down, repeat. I think it's safe to say that if you played TR2013 you played 'Uncharted' only with a much better story and better gameplay.
Agree. But Unchared sales are much better than TR's.


Never played Uncharted, not sold on my platform so irrelevant to people in the same situation.
Yeah, might be irrelevant to you, but to PS gamers it's not ;) And PS is the console where TR sales are the biggest.


I wasn't trying to boil the whole TR fan base down to 16,000 or belittle the petition.
From how you talked about it, it looked like you were trying to boil the whole TR fanbase to 16000.


Dayoum is saying how large the core fanbase was and how it contributed to support of the franchise post AoD and the success of TR2013. What I was trying to show was that a petiton that was promoted among the fansites attracted 16,000 signatures which in relation to the total number of overall sales was pretty small and therefore an indication of the level of core fandom.
All this promotion looks like this: Stella has ~2500 followers now. Lets say she had 2000 when she made this petition. This is at least 2000 votes, right? The rest came from the outside - those 2000 followers from Stella's site told their friends about it and they also came from those sites you're talking about. If this petition was mentioned with the link on IGN or any big gaming site, there would be more votes. Just like after it was linked on official TR fb page in the comments, which attracted 200 new people. This is logic, not a gut feeling now. Considering how popular (~2500 followers) is Stella, I'd say 16000 votes is a success. A huge success.


]But my belief is based on the facts before me and most likely outcome based on those facts. Yours are not, as you have presented assumptions and gut feelings, not facts. Yes I am making assumptions but they are substantiated ones.
My beliefs are based on the facts and life experience. Everyone of us see the facts differently. Like I said - you can be right or wrong, same goes for me, but it doesn't mean me or you are wrong right now so there's really no point in this "fight" over who's right or who's rights are more probable. All of this is our own, personal facts analysis.


You are missing the point. TR is a well known franchise. The exclusivity deal may attract people who recognise the franchise and make a purchase because it seems better.
And you're forgetting one thing - loyalty. TR fan base is a big one, because the title is known all over the world. From loyal fans who don't own xbox, this deal is a betrayal. Yeah, sure, the game CAN attract some new people on xbox, but the deal in the long run can hurt the franchise more. PS sales outnumbered xbox sales and right now, some of PS gamers are pissed off to the point where they refuse to buy ROTTR or will buy it second hand. Sounds good? I don't think so.


Again you present no evidence for this.
Oh, so you don't know the sales of AoD were so bad and the criticism was so big they had to cancel the sequel (Tomb Raider: The Lost Dominion) and the TR was handed to a different developer (Crystal Dynamics)? They messed up with Chronicles, AoD was the final nail. The Legend was the first game made by Crystal D. Was it risky move to make Legend? Of course it was. If it turned out into a disaster, do you really think they'd make another TR game? Use logic. They would most likely not even try to touch TR franchise ever again, too afraid of losing reputation and more money. Meaning, Reboot would never happen. This case scenario happened to Gothic. G3 was a technical disaster (needed at least 1 fanmade patch to work a bit better). It made fans pissed off, the studio sold the rights for the game to another one, they made G4 and it was a complete disaster too. G5 never happened and never will, the series end up in shame. And this is the last time I try to present you the facts with logic. You can believe whatever you want to, as we all do.


But it's on the biggest TR forum sites
Like this one? I haven't seen it here until you linked it. Everything else, I explained above.


Twitter would not be a place where you would expect to capture the core fanbase.
I think you'd be surprised ;) These are the easiest and fastest news-sources, especially on mobile. Forums, not so much. These are great to talk to other people, but not everyone actually likes it. Personally, for the news, I prefer twitter and tumblr (even tho I'm not a blogger, I only watch).